Brahmin and Mullah

Zahra #300
From your little lecture anyone would think that a Muslim society where nonMuslims are considered equal is not something within common knowledge, but is something mythical like El Dorado.

ylh #311
Were A LARGE NUMBER of women(more than 1.3 lakhs and across 2 whole districts) prevented from voting in NWFP or not?? Due to the threats of a religious group? Will you pay attention only if it was the entire province?

What did this incident have to do with Hindu culture and does it not disprove Acheron2`s article`s entire thesis?

If Islam is so egalitarian where were the Islamic scholars and their adherents at hand to prevent this in defence of its dearly-held egalitarianism and inherent democracy of Islam?

Where was the secular-in-spirit Pakistani government on hand to prevent this in defence of its dearly-held secular principles?

Where are the widespread protests among Pakistanis against preventing more than a hundred thousand women from voting?

Why is India supposed to follow Pakistan`s lead in this matter ?

When are Pakistanis going to actually DO something to show their much-touted secularism?

`` The rest of the post 249 explains why a Muslim Society should accept Non Muslims as equals in this day and age.``

Yes, (we all know what you think and its to your credit,) but tell me WHERE IT ACTUALLY DOES?

btw, I donot subscribe to the chowk mullahism of yours and tahmed321 variety. I respect thoughts and ideas and sentiments based on what is expressed, not based on who is saying.

And I donot subscribe to your and tahmed321`s caste system, sorry, any perpetuation of this caste system will have to be done without my pariticipation.

Bio-data of Pakistan`s current Education Minister, Zubaida Jalal. Musharraf has made an interesting choice. Quite young; only 42 years old, and home-grown product. For some reason, I always thought she was around 60 years old. One would think with all the foreign-returned Ph.Ds. around, Musharraf would have gone for one of them. I wonder if they resent that.

George Bush refered to her as, ``very capable`` (or something similar) in a press conference. Cowasjee really seems to like her, also. I don`t know what Hoodbhoy`s views are on her. I wonder if she is any good?

``Born in 1959, Mrs Zobaida Jalal had her early education in Kuwait. She holds a Master`s Degree Literature from the University of Balochistan, Quetta. She established a girl`s primary school on self-help basis. She also started the first pilot project of interest free credit scheme provided by UNICEF.

She worked with numerous national and international organizations, founding hospitals, creating a curriculum for an Adult Literacy School, and establishing 45 male and female community organizations. She visited a number of countries and presented papers on various subjects. She has received a large number of honours, awards and medals from various foundations and governmental organisations.`` (http://www.ibe.unesco.org/International/ICE/ministers/pakistan.htm)

Aamir #276 I would be willing to contribute my prayers for the ``Pathetic Bigots on Chowk Fund``. Sadna will be our poster child, with Jay Bahadur being the stand-in.

Please, however, refrain from falling into the ``Bigot Trap`` by retaliating and ridiculing other people`s religions or countries: they have done you no harm, and have as much right to have their religious feelings respected as any other human being, and you lower yourself to the level of the Sadnas and Jays of the world.

Zahra darling#: 300

``Aap Ko Bila-wajah Kee Behas Kurnae Kee Buhat Buri Adut Hae. Iss Kaa Undaza Mujhae Kafi Ursae Pehale Ho Gaya Thaa. ...``

I never expected such post from you. Thought you were one with a balanced head.

I have an interesting link for people on the chowk.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/100501/detCIT15.asp

Worshipping idols is hardly a matter of shame compared to worshipping books demanding followers to kill all kafirs and condoning a prophet´s marriage to a 9-year-old.

even the greek had gods of all sorts. at least that shows some creativity and sophistication in recognizing that whatever is enchanting in the universe exists in all living creatures and in the elements such as wind, fire, water, etc...

Worshipping idols is hardly a matter of shame compared to worshipping books demanding followers to kill all kafirs and condoning a prophet´s marriage to a 9-year-old.

even the greek had gods of all sorts. at least that shows some creativity and sophistication in recognizing that whatever is enchanting in the universe exists in all living creatures and in the elements such as wind, fire, water, etc...

CONFRONTING SADNA`S LIES:

Sadna 255, YLH 249

I do read my newspapers ... that is why I proved to you that the sweeping and misleading propaganda lie that you made that `no woman in NWFP` was allowed to vote is wrong ... because there are far too many liberal educated and Modern Women in NWFP

for that to be true! I admitted in my original post that in one district this actually happened.

For Sadna`s information NWFP is not restricted to

Dir and Malakand. You are the master of exaggeration and lies, and I congratulate you for being that .... after all your creed never succeeded in anything else. Next time it will help not to simply skim through my post. If you are really worth your salt you will apologize for so blatantly lying ....

There are a lot of women I know including my own two aunts ... Mrs Nuzhat Illiyas and Dr Zumarad Tanwir... both my mother`s sisters (and both are non-hijabis like my mother mashallah).. who won the elections. Mrs Nuzhat Illiyas became a councillor and I am not too sure what Dr Zumarad Tanwir became... she was formerly the chairperson Women`s Wing PPP Islamabad ....

Amongst the Pakistanis I have never met a more moderate person than tahmed321 (though I have some serious issues with him) and that now he is upset with you is a testament of your bigotry, fanaticism and your machiavellian character.

The rest of the post 249 explains why a Muslim Society should accept Non Muslims as equals in this day and age.

ISLAMIC HISTORY AND MINORITIES .. CONFRONTING ACCUSATIONS:

Smellycat:

You are definitely deserving of the name. However

any objective historian (eg Bernard Lewis) will maintain that Muslims have treated their minorities better than anyone else. Indeed there have been events which have terrible according to our times, but then was `killing off the Indians` and `the confiscation of Mexican territory` by the US any better. If you will point fingers at Islam in 8th Century, I will show you worse examples in the US of the 19th century... but this doesnot take away from the essence of US`s ideals, as it does not take away from the essence of Islamic Ideals. The bottom line is that ISLAM did treat its minorities much better. The Kafirs of Mecca were in a treaty with Medinan Muslims and they broke the treaty, so Muslims conquered them. We donot have any reports of killings of Meccans after the `Fatah Mecca` ... they were given two choices... pay the minority tax, or accept Islam.

Where else in the world at that time was the conquered nation treated so generously ? Even in the US in 1800s, Indians were mercilessly put to death.

It is time I believe you started reading anyone other than Swami Pandit Hari Chand Bhatyacharya..

Some books that these `Islam-Haters` should read:

History of the Middle East by Bernard Lewis

Arabs in History by Bernard Lewis

Jews of Islam by Bernard Lewis

Islam the Right Path by John L Esposito

Islam and Politics by John L Esposito

Emerging Voices by John L Esposito

And there are many more books by Hoorani, Esposito, Lewis, Lamb etc the names of which I cant remember....

Shankar,

Yes I know AJA, and I also know Aisha Sarwari .. as for Bhartiya, he is just another fool in a long line of rejects.

As for your second post... I totally agree with everything your said... and I wish India and Indians best of luck as I always have.

Long Live Pakistan

re. hobbyty:

``PM...Why don`t you commit to the point - Do Christians pray to idols? Please do not get etheral - it`s uncalled for, this is pretty straight forward stuff - ``

What!? And deprive myself of this little pleasure of knowing you`re not able to peg me down neatly? Naaah! :)

Oh what the heck! ..... Yes. IMHO most Christians, like most Muslims do. Now, I believe I`ve already stated the reason I hold this belief and am not about to tourture the poor chowkwallahs again with my convoluted theses.

``Regarding the Christian peasants - I concede that only those that feel it, know it.``

And why aren`t more people feeling it, even when it does make the newspaper headlines every now and again? Are we so shamefully desensitized to the plight of Minorities? Is there a role played by any Islamic teachings (however selective) in this apathetic attitude?

``Are there Pakistani Christian groups that are involved with either conscience raising exercises or directly helping to educate christian peasants in Punjab? or advocacy groups?``

Yes, the Church is actually pretty active in the villages and slums, with ongoing outreach programmes and education. It would help a great deal to have the backing of the State in these affairs. However, with lawas like the Qisa (sp?) and Diyat been promulgated (here you go, Sadna!), that effectively, nay LITERALLY, value the life of a Minotity as half of that of a Muslim, one wonders how the apathetic and downright bigoted attitudes of many Muslims is expected to change.

``Praying to God or praying to Christ? Is there a difference? Isn`t the trinity also a unity?``

Oh Jeez!! I don`t believe you actually bought that 3rd century sorry excuse of a doctrine for reconciling tri-theism with monotheism. Go back to your own scriptures-- i honestly think they have it right there. You (Christains, I mean) can`t have it both ways.

``On the Images of God -...

Perhaps I should have used the word visage? instead of image. what do you think? Because you are suggesting that the attributes are an image?``

I`m sugesting that attributes can very easily lead to images, which they obviously do for a majority of Muslims who, as I pointed out, have no problems whatsoever speaking of Allah in the same manner as Christians refer to God... as a Big Manup there somewhere prolly with a long white beard. Tell me, how easy it is for you to AVOID conjuring up an image of such a God when you hear that this God asks Abraham to go sacrifice his son, and then reveals that, heck, it was only a test of his faith?

``Has the slow dumb Muslim got it half assed right?``

Now, now, please don`t paint me as muslim-basher. At least in this debate, I`ve repeatedly categorized Muslims and Christians together...

My point being

xxxabbu

Can you suggest a work from R. Tharpar?

Tahmed, Mahesh G

The call for national debate, to me, makes sense. It has worked in other countries and other cultures and it will work in India and Pakistan. It has the effect of raising the consciouness and of challenging the status quo. The greater the debate, the more readily, notions that do not hold water will succumb.

Please read my post 248 -

You will see that I challenge the notion that Hindus or Christians worship Idols.

Also note that the definitions of Idol I provided are dictionary definitions and the problem, in my opinion, you seem to be having is that you are not challenging the notion of idolatory - which I am sure you both agree is by definition to be be avoided.

Idolatory would be worshipping the idol.

Whereas the presence of the idol in worshipping the diety would not be idolatory, as the purpose of the is not as the object of worship.

sadhna 299

There are no `views` there. Only empty assertions and tall claims such as `I could write but wont because you wont understand any way.`

re: tahmed321# 296 (cont.)

I can share with you what I was told, as a kid, about modes of worship, which has more or less stayed with me. I think most Hindus share similar views.

I was told that God was infinity (anant, anaadi), and that we humans could not hope to fully grasp God through our senses or even through our imagination. Such an infinite God clearly could not have any paticular form (nirupa). So we all had two choices when it came to thinking about God. We could think of God either as nirarakar (form less, bodyless) or as sakar (with form and body). The latter was easier to concentrate on for most folks. But it was made clear to me that what particular form you think of God in does NOT matter one bit. In my own family, different members of my family worship God in very different forms and different ways. Yet there is an unambiguous understanding of the fundamental unity of all forms of worship.

So, do we worship idols? Yes and no. The answer will depend on the level of intellectual and religious understanding and the level of humanity within the person asking such a question... As for myself, if someone could teach me, I would happily pray as Muslims do (which btw I find very attractive), and feel equally satisfied. I dont think there is a God out there getting all hassled about how people are praying to Him or who is marrying whom or who is reading which book. Any infinite God that takes care of billions of stars and millions of galaxies must be far above these things.

re: tahmed # 296

The debate on caste is ferocious and multidimensional. Look, for example, at this article from yesterday:

http://features.samachar.com/070701-fpj.html

It is part of a huge recent national argument regarding whether caste-discrimination can be equated with racism. There are similar, constant arguments on whether reservations (or their current form) are the right solution to the problem of caste; whether reservations have made any real difference; whether we now have a `creamy layer` of lower caste people; whether problems of caste are similar to/exacerbated by problems of poverty and lack of education; whether national economic policies directly impinge on the problems of caste; or the role of electronic media or geographic mobility on weakening the hold of caste...and so on. I hope someone who focuses on this more than I do, will write about these debates in greater detail.

Overall, however, (and some of our Pakistani friends do not seem to realize this) the caste system has ALREADY LOST the INTELLECTUAL debate in the Hindu society. No intellectual...not even a politician...today will openly, let alone proudly, claim that the caste system is `right.` In NONE of these aforementioned debates would you find people defending caste system by quoting from religious texts or writings of religious scholars!! That stage stage is, thankfully, behind us. Casteism continues to be the bane of Indian politics but the *justification * of these politics is NEVER that caste is right (because God wished it that way or any such absurd reason). Rather casteist politics is invariably presented as a form of self help - taking care of the political and material interests of one`s own group.

Certainly, public intellectual delegitimation is not emotional delegitimation, let alone actual behavioral change. But public delegitimation of ideas, you will agree, is a HUGE step in changing the thinking of people over many generations. Our hope is that if we school our kids properly, if we can tell them and make them appreciate how evil this system is, then ...every new generation coming in is likely to find traditional casteist thinking less `reasonable`, or less `sacred` If this happens, then, over time...the evil practice may even disappear (if our self-serving politicians let it...but that is another debate).

Public intellectual delegitimation of evil and exclusionary ideas is not the end of the journey...but it is the crucial first step if we hope to change our societies, and our own humanity, for the better. On the other hand, if we take the contrary path, if we fail to publicly delegitimate our evil and exclusionary ideas for whatever reason, we as groups are far less likely to change for the better, from a human standpoint.

Before this article ``Brahmin and Mullah`` says good bye to the front page, I would like to quote Iqbal:

Sadhna Dear:

Aap Ko Bila-wajah Kee Behas Kurnae Kee Buhat Buri Adut Hae. Iss Kaa Undaza Mujhae Kafi Ursae Pehale Ho Gaya Thaa. I would give you the shikhshaa only if will become my disciple. Otherwise, I am sorry my dear, I ain`t showing you the Road to Eldorado :) Kur Lo Jo Kurna Hae!

:)

Zahra #270
Please oblige us with your views, in which Muslim society are nonMuslims considered equal to Muslims in all respects, even in the sight of God?