Brahmin and Mullah

klutz #whichever

The genocide of more than 1 million minority Kurds in the last 50 years by their Muslim majority countrymen in more than one Muslim country and your abysmal ignorance of this statistic is due to what?


ylh #from another board

Think about it, `Ahimsa paramo dharma` implying peaceful mass demonstrations may well be the ideal way to for Pakistanis of all classes and religious affiliations to register their widespread and heartfelt rejection of the arrogance of sectarian hatred imposed through the gun on harmless doctors in your major port city.

If one didnot apprehend massacres, it would be also be the way for ordinary Afghans to register their protest against the Taliban`s repressive policies and continued war without needing money for bigger and better arms and fighters.

klutz #294
Will you explain why there is only one Jew left in Afghanistan?

And why a large number of Afghan Jews faced persecution and steadily migrated to Bombay, India (among other places) in the last 300 years?

Mahesh #288 MaheshG

You write: ``Yes, most Hindus worship idols. They worship the form of God they believe in.``

Good answer, and I hope Hobbyty will agree. Incidentally, I understand that there is a Hindu prayer where the worshipper apologizes to the Supreme One (Brahman) for praying before a physical representation (idol), and (the prayer goes) states that this is due to the human limitations of the worshipper in being able to comprehend the tangible rather than the intangible majesty of God. I think it is a beautiful prayer, and yet another proof on how wrong people like Mahmud of Ghazni have been in not respecting other religions. I wonder if MaheshG or Shankar or some other knowledgable person would shed some light on this prayer (I just read about it in a book on comparitive religions): like are you aware of it? is it a common prayer? I think it is time we muslims started respecting other forms of worship

``Regarding the caste system. Yes, it is cruel. ``

Agreed. The caste system is what I call ``man`s creation``: the concept exists, like other evil, in the hearts of all men, not just Hindus. It is time we separated what is divine and what is man-made. As individuals, we should be concerned first and foremost with our own attitudes: do we address the driver with the same respect as his sahib? do we talk to our subordinates with the same respect as we talk to our bosses? If not, then I think we have work to do, regardless of whether we are Hindus or Muslims.

``Who do you think is trying to rectify the centuries of discrimination against the lower caste people?``

``There is an intellectual debate going on in the Hindu society. Do you expect us to wipe out this scourge in one sitting?``

I hope so. In what form is this debate taking place? in newspapers, or the lok sabha? I am genuinely curious, not trying to be clever.

Reply #: 276

Aamir

hahaha that really was hilarious :P i see some ppl still have a good sense of humour here. Yea Sadna we arent heartless u know.

This really is getting interesting.

Reply:

dost-mittar

``As a point of reference, how many Muslim girls you know in Pakistan who have married non-Muslim men, raised their children as non-Muslims, have not left the country and are still alive?``

maybe u dont know but in islam a women is not allowed to marry a non-muslim so there is no question of raising their children as non-muslims.

``The ones who remain are always in mortal fear of their lives lest one of their neighbours should make an arbitrary complaint of blasphemy against them.``

WHo told u that???did u personally see what happened to sikhs and other minorities with ur own eyes?maybe in some parts of pakistan where ppl are ignorant and illitrate, might hold minorities with contempt.. but i dont and most of the pakis dont either.I myself know many christians and not one of them have ever said anything about being mistreated.

you ask us how dare we raise a cry for justice when u urself admit that muslim minorities are being mistreated? okay so maybe minorities are being mistreated here (and believe me i object to that mistreatment) but injustice to a non-muslim in pakistan is almost non-existent.But anyway why dont u then raise this issue???why dont u and ur indian brothers ask fro justice instead of asking us how dare we say that muslim minorities rights are being curbed.?

Reply:

egalitarian_brahmin

I didnot say it happened in india although it is one of many countries in which muslim minorities are being harrassed!i dont need to ask anyone about whats going on in india or anywhere else in the world.

How would i know what everyone has against muslims! maybe because everyone is afraid of us ``terrorists``? Why dont u go ask ur indian friends and people from other countries?

Anyway everyone knows whats happening in palestine and kashmir... also what happened in bosnia etc.Does anyone care?No!!1000 of muslims are being killed,molested,harrassed,beaten to death,etc etc and no one is doind anything...there is almost no media coverage.Yet when something happens to a non-muslim ,or God Forbid a muslims kills a non-muslim it makes the headlines...Front PAGEE!!

Muslims being harrassed is old news now.. its not important any more!right????!!?!??!Sheesh!!and then u guys have the nerve to call me bigoted!! * * *

Atleast our newspapers print a somewhat fairer picture of what really happened if not the entire truth!!If u wantt to read about what muslims are going through then i believe pakistani newspapers are better for that purpose.I am not saying they present an entire picture of what really is going on...believe me no newspaper presents the true picture!! American newspapers are biased towards muslims and muslim countries!!and i know that for sure!!

That example of a rabbi was just to show u that talibans donot stop the minorities from practicing their religion!!... any person with a little sense would know why i pasted that!and any person with a little sense would also know that just to show that all minorities are safe everywhere just because talibans let the jew practice his religion. Phuleeezzzz!!!egalitarian_brahmin ure wasting my time with this nonsense. If u have something important to talk about only then post me ur replies... i have enough to do than sit down and reply to ur silly remarks.

Smellycat sweetheart u are way outta line lady (oops sorry),ladies are supposed to be sweet and charming and ofcourse intelligent.WE cant call ppl who are inane,irksome,stupid,bigoted,senseless, and not to forget dimwits!Now as we`ve cleared that lets get back to what u said.

As i was saying ur remarks about our prophet and Allah are uncalled for. Plz try to refrain from talking nonsense about ppl we regard with great honour & respect.I dont think that anyone of us muslims degraded ur GOD...we can dish out insults as well,we can retaliate as well but alas!! we have been taught good manners.. and my mommmy told me once that we should not stoop down to morons like urs level!!!I see u way way down there smelly!!

Ahhh i know why u wrote all that stupid nonsense...u want attention!!! GOD!! why didnt i think of that bfr....everyone plz pay some attention to this poor gurl ... shes hungry for some attention plzz ppl do soemthing..quickly bfr she bombards us with another dose of her brainless, absurd, childish and idiotic posts!!!

Aamir #276
I was talking about Pakistanis like this author considering faults of `Hindu` culture more relevant to Pakistan than faults of `Islamic` culture.

In Saudi Arabia, for murder there are different penalties. If the dead man is a Muslim, penalty for murder is maximum, if the dead man is a Christian, the penalty for murder is less and for killing a Hindu, the penalty is the least.
I donot doubt the penalty also depends on the religious affiliation of the murderer.

With such barbaric distinctions within the Islamic tradition even in the present day, nor even a push for institutional justice for all in most Muslim countries one can think of, all this Hindu-bashing is even more incredible.
Can anyone name any significiant reform movements(social, religious, political) in Pakistan which is fighting for equal treatment of nonMuslims and women and erasing of sectarian boundaries and which is backed up by theology and clergy?

The Hindu-bashing is all the more incredible given that religious, social, political movements as well as institutional measures for reform have been present in modern Hindu society for a long time, even before the last century. An ignorance of these is not a sufficient argument for the existence of never-seen never-heard never-fought-for perfections of so-called `Islamic` society.

Drumz: Not to ruin your day, but according to my calculations based on basic vital stats for Pakistan, 34,000 infants die each month in Pakistan. And the reason is not politics - it is poverty. To apply Philosopher Pogo`s wisdom to the sub-continent: We have met the Enemy, and He is Poverty. And the prime responsibility for fixing Poverty rests with - you guessed it - us, the ex-infants who managed to make it and can now comfortably spout our wisdom on chowk.

Hobbyty,

If christians don`t worship the idol of Jesus then who are idol worshippers?

Then neither are Hindus.

Nobody is.

So, who are you ranting and raving against?

Hobbyty,

Yes, most Hindus worship idols. They worship the form of God they believe in. If you can think of why muslims pray towards Mecca then you would have answered your question about why Hindus worship idols.

Regarding the caste system. Yes, it is cruel. Yes, it is inhuman to treat fellow human beings based on the family they are born into. Yes, the caste wouldn`t have been so pervasive if an intellectual debate had taken place about it some time ago.

But, do you think it is not taking place? Who do you think made the caste system illegal? Was it the glorious christians or the heralded muslims? No, it was us hindus who did it? Who do you think is trying to rectify the centuries of discrimination against the lower caste people? Is it you? It is us again, the evil hindus.

As Shankar pointed out. We are doing something about it. There is an intellectual debate going on in the Hindu society. Do you expect us to wipe out this scourge in one sitting? Do you think if all hindus got together and debated the caste system out everybody would immediately what a heinous practice this is?

If you are honest you will give credit where it`s due.

Mass awareness to discourage

inter-family marriages urged

By our correspondent

PESHAWAR: Doctors and social motivators on Sunday called for creating mass awareness to discourage inter-family marriages to control mental and physical disabilities and different diseases taking its toll on human lives, specially, children.

//The above article from jung of today explains a lot about the behaviour / posts of many pakistanis, con-genital ..

Ref Hobbyty

CASTE SYSTEM

``I charge you and all those who will not reject the caste system, with having institutionalized discrimination, with inhumanly holding in cruel servitude, millions of your co-religionists and fellow humans. Shame on you for even justifying it by trying to explain it.``

You are mainly preaching to the choir buddy. I do not see any Indians in denial abt the caste system. I believe almost all Indians will agree that castism is one of the most heartless and cynical religiuos/social practices anywhere.

If the reason for your outbursts is a genuine feeling that not enough Hindus are talking about this problem or doing sth about it, then pls be assured that this is not the case. Of course there will always be blockheads who will try to justify casteism for their own ends, but fortunately this tribe seems to have utterly lost its voice in the country`s polity. I can say with a lot of confidence that Hindus are already fairly on the way to kicking out this unwelcome feature from their society and religion.

What non-hindus frequently dont realize is that the caste system is not a codified feature of hinduism; in fact nohting is, since there is no Book in hinduism. To be sure, varnas - division of labour - are an integral part of the vedas, but like features in many religions, they are artifacts of the times. As part of an epistimological corpus, the varna is one aspect among many, any or all of which may be chosen or rejected in any combination by the hindu according to his/her inclination.

Of course, this is not how it went in history! Countless Brahminical treatises were written whcih slowly cemented the role of caste as a non-optional part of the belief system. Even so, the institutionalisation of caste was a slow process lasting several hundred years. This process of exegesis and institutionalisation of exploitative norms is common to all religious traditions, in varying degree. I think its quite pointless to argue now whether a particular belief is an integral or original part of a religion. What is far more important is to realise that religions are living, evolving things whcih have been subject to much historical use and abuse by vested interests. So the enlightened thing to do would be to identify the exploitative and/or archaic parts of the liturgy and excise them best one can. I think most Hindus realise this. They do not consider caste system, at least its current pernicious form, as a cornerstone of their religion. If this were not so, why do you think they`d let the govt pass a law banning it? To put in perspective, what will happen if your govt decides to ban, say, the Hajj (just for argument sake)?

Of course, the law is only the first step. Casteism will only stop when everyone is educated and aware of their rights. Pls note that this does not require chucking out the religion itself, but simply to make people aware that caste system is not an acceptable part of it. Hindus are quite fortunate that way - there is no word of God telling them whats what, so its fine to modify beliefs to suit the times.

Of course, it will never be perfect, no matter what. For some reason God decided to reserve that honour for certain Bedouin tribes a while ago.

``There is nowhere to hide! I want the truth about your caste system and it`s relationship with your religion! And I want the truth of the discrimination and degradation this system has brought upon tens of millions of human beings!``

If you really want the truth, why settle at anecdotal evidence or opinion, which is what posters here can give you. There are a number of excellent books on the history, sociology and consequences of the caste system. Check out Romila Thapar in particular.

xxabbu

Egalitarian

``Btw, are you all cuckoo? What`s with the CAN`T LIVE WITH YOU, CAN`T LIVE UNDER YOU? You can`t live with yourselves``

Does this ring a bell???

``Unhappy in the states they`re in`` - connect the dots - I have not a doubt that you can find 500,000 or more Sindhi - review your statement above - still feeling so superior? or do you not realize the kind of ass you have made of yourself?

``Please save us this irrelevant hooey ABCDs shell out for the ignorant Americans to read``

In your earlier posts you didn`t think these Americans were so ignorant - what`s changed your mind? You seemed to care, mentioned something about world trade center - what`s changed your mind?

Anyways, Egalitarian, sooner or later you will run into a Muslim, (I don`t mean cyber space) you may need a job or something or the other, pray that Muslim is not aware of your views. But hatred is hard to disguise. It`s not just India, Muslims are everywhere, look at the likes of Milosovich, others will also be held accountable and not just in courts of law.

My sense is that you are rather a young person, I tell you to come to terms with what you think and why and resolve some of your issues with Islam and Muslims.

Dear fthaver:

You write:

``````Like I said the answer to me lies not in being

rational but being critical which religion nor science appears to address.````

my dear fellow, are you sure? -- unless you`re RATIONAL -- how can you be truly CRITICAL -- I mean ``rationally`` critical which Science does -- NOT ``irrationally`` critical -- which RELIGION does.

Based upon experimentally verifiable facts -- Science only PROPOSES -- based upon unverfiable fantasy and schizophrenic hallucinations -- Religion simply IMPOSES.

Secularism by itself -- is no panacea for a country`s ills -- Secular Humanism is.

PM

Why don`t you commit to the point - Do Christians pray to idols?

Please do not get etheral - it`s uncalled for, this is pretty straight forward stuff -

Regarding the Christian peasants - I concede that only those that feel it, know it. Are there Pakistani Christian groups that are involved with either conscience raising exercises or directly helping to educate christian peasants in Punjab? or advocacy groups?

Praying to God or praying to Christ? Is there a difference? Isn`t the trinity also a unity?

On the Images of God -

``The ideal is is not achieved by mere subscription to a belief, especially blindly. In fact, all meantion of God`s actions (created Man/ caused the Flood/sent the Quran) or sayings (``Thou shalt not [do this that and the other]``) -- all these things militate against the idea of an imageless God. Not for nothing did the Hebrew masters of yore insist that God cannot be known by any attributes; but only by what He/It is NOT!``

Perhaps I should have used the word visage? instead of image. what do you think? Because you are suggesting that the attributes are an image? Has the slow dumb Muslim got it half assed right? For clarity, In my orginal posts, I did not mean that the attributes can or should be seen as an image, certainly they do not conjure up an image/visage for me, but I can see your point.

On the Tibet monks bit - sarcasm? really? Poor Muslims, not really the equal of Tibetan monks!

``To summarize... if the idol helps you perceive/experience the [your word for the `God` experience], the religious goal has been reached. Concepts/words, like idols are only the finger that points the way, not the Reality Itself, as the old Zen saying goes.``

How the heck is this different from what I said about the presence of the idol???