Brahmin and Mullah

re. hobbyty #252

``PM...Convulted(sic) and pained.

By definition - the monotheist God cannot be an Idol - Idolatory is false not because of the presence of the Idol but by the worship of the Idol itself. Very many confuse the presence of the idol with the worship of the Idol itself, Christians do not worship the Idol of Christ.

So can Allah/God be an idol - by definition, No!``

Yes, but is anyone and everyone *claiming * to be worshipping Allah/God etc., merely by saying (i.e, using that word) and believing so necessarily *doing * so?

I guess I`m asking the same question as anarayan did in #250, in my own convoluted and pained way. :) Care to oblige with an answer?

P.S. If your concept of an idol is limited to those with a physical presence, don`t bother with an answer.

Mona.

I`m sorry I fogot to give you the name of the book,

``A brave New world.`` Huxley, Aldous

Later,

Aisha

Shanker,

What are you talking about? :$

Aisha

Reply #: 220

egalitarian_brahmin

``Is it really a coincidence that Islamic nations are known to treat their minorities with contempt?``

I was going through an article and it said

[Minorities continue to be threatened in India, whereas not a single non-Muslim was deliberately killed in Afghanistan. The Associated Press reported that in Kabul there is one old Jewish rabbi who stayed to protect a synagogue in the centre of the city. The Taliban did not prevent him from practicing his religion.]

Do u have any proof that minorities are being treated with contempt in islamic countries???Maybe u will be able to provide me with 1 or 2 examples only.Such news are almost non-existent.

``Muslim Minorities want self-determination because they can`t live under ``lesser`` people``

``Muslim Majorities indulge in ethnic cleansing because they can`t live with ``lesser`` people.``

ohh reallly???When a muslim is not given his/her right, when they cant even practice their religion, when they cant even get out of their house without fear... do u think theyd have time to think about being superior to others?I dont think so.ethnic cleansing indeed! Theres always been oppression on muslims by other religious parties.And u say we cant live as muslim minorities because we want to indulge in ethnic cleansing???Boy are dead wrong or what!

``Few Muslim states will grant full political and cultural rights to religious minorities. At the same time, they will not remain indifferent to the treatment of Muslim minorities elsewhere: in Russia, Indonesia, India/Kashmir, China, and the Balkans. Other religious denominations also will support beleaguered coreligionists.``

I believe this report is entirely out of place.Our country doesnt try to curb minorities rights.I believe they are treated fairly by the govt.Why is it that america and other countries raise cry about what muslim countries ``MIGHT`` supposedly do in the near future and not do anything about how muslim minorities are being treated????We dont go around killing people of other religions!!Our muslim brothers dont go around raping women from other religions!!!!No one really cares about what muslims are going through...and u come and paste me this stupid report!!!... i dont even give a damn what these people say... They have this ideological power... they let everyone think that they dont take sides and are letting everyone know what the truth is... Truth my FOOT!!!its better to call them false propagandas!

Reply #: 224

AAmir

Ohh so the whole world knows who i am???Damn and i thought i was being very discreet.btw who am i?

``there would be need for another Forum like this just to keep up with the APOLOGIES!!!``

Yep thats really true.. i just apologized for one reason and one reason only (i still believe islam is the best and i will never tire of talking abt it)... in islam we are taught not to disrespect any religion or their God.So i thought i had done that .. and only because of that i was apologizing.Dont worry aamir bhaijaan :P i dont have a sensitive skin... ill try not to apologize again hehe :)

Reply #: 225

PM

``So you have a ``direct`` relationship with ``your`` Allah. How is that any better or any worse than an interceded one, other than for the reason that your Mommy told you so? ``

Aeisha u can butt in anytime u want :)

I believe what Aeisha said in her post #: 231,#:252 is very true indeed.If we go to a priest we will feel worthwhile infront of ALlah.. we will feel that only pious ppl like priests will be forgiven and only if we contact Allah through them and ask them to pray for us and ask for forgiveness on our behalf we will then be forgiven.

instead in islam we are equal infront of Allah.A sinner can ask for Allah`s forgiveness himself just like a religious person. Everything will be between them.

i believe u are very wrong about Allah being an idol.hobbyty`s post #: 232 clearly points that out.

You are right...many religions believe in ``one great ultimate``.I didnot say im superior just because i believe in One GOD.... as u pointed out christians/jews ... and all kinds of religions believe in One GOD....what i said was that yes our main belief is that there is One God...but what i meant was that islam is the complete code of life. Maybe not in ur eyes but it is in mine.

veeresh #91 By sending in one post after another trying to ``defend`` the morally impoverished and delusional nature of earlier posts, I suggest you stop for a few hours this writing. Try instead to recharge your batteries and to renew your impoverished stock of good judgement and to get rid of your delusions.

Here are excerpts from a column -- by a gutsy Muslim woman -- who obviously has no itentions to stay home and roll CHAPAATEES for her husband -- and is not afraid to take on the ``fearsome`` Generals -- her clarion call:



`Generals,return to the barracks`

BENAZIR BHUTTO

History casts its long shadow over Pakistan and its neighbour Afghanistan. The failure to reach a political settlement to the extradition of al Qaeda suspects saw the dark clouds of war descend on the region. The events of September 11 changed the calculus of politics. B-52 bombers zoomed across the sky dropping their lethal load on a country that knew too much war but was unable to make peace.

A public frenzy was whipped up in Pakistan. Many young people were motivated to donate their life savings or send their young sons off to a war ``for Islam``. They were led to believe that victory would be theirs ``once the ground assault began``.

Intoxicated by the idea of triumphing over a super-power, the misguided youth rushed to the camps of charlatans who promised them victory. The battle lines were drawn. Yet, most knew the outcome. Even as Islamabad watched the young men rush off to the arid plains of Afghanistan to defend the Taliban, it was discussing a post Taliban Afghan government.

The Taliban were doomed to military defeat at the hands of a superior military force. The young men who went to fight were abandoned. The fighting started and the Afghan militias melted into the villages. The Arab fighter, without a village to return to, fought to death or took to the mountain caves. The Pakistani, new to the terrain, had nowhere to go. He was captured, brutally beaten or killed. The Pakistani leaders, who provoked them into the fight, were conveniently under ``house arrest``.

As the Northern Alliance advanced, the bodies of unclaimed dead Pakistanis littered the landscape. They were orphaned. None had stopped them from going. None came forward to accept their dead bodies and give them a decent burial. They were abandoned. No one knows what happen!!

Defeat has its own bitter after taste. The earlier bravado of victory in the ground war and the noisy demonstrations for fighting against the infidel ended. A dark silence descended. Few asked for accountability of those who provoked young men into siding with the Taliban that resulted in blood shed. Few wondered about the mothers who lost their sons or the young widows or orphans. The second Afghan war is a double tragedy for the Muslim world. It is a war that never should have happened. Yet, in the noisy Maddrassas set up under General Zia and his intelligence, that second war took its roots bringing in its wake death, destruction and shame.

The Taliban got nothing in their determination to reject a political solution. Voices that once defended them are now silenced. Victory has a thousand fathers and defeat is an orphan. Yet those who supported the Taliban in their irrational defiance bear a moral and political responsibility for the events that took place. They owe an explanation to the thousands of Pakistanis encouraged to join an unnecessary war without a chance of victory.

The Taliban war brought world attention to Pakistan. The sun rose from behind clouds to shine on Islamabad`s rulers. The sun is bright but the clouds are still there.

The world focus is on terrorism. Its shortsigted for the military regime to see the present world sympathy as a solution to the problems of Pakistan.

The largesse of the world community during the Zia era failed to solve the internal crisis. Its unlikely that largesse today can be any different.



It is naive to assume that the billions of aid dollars flowing into Kabul will go to Pakistani contractors. The Establishment`s Taliban fixated policy alienated the Northern Alliance as well as many Pashtuns. There is little love lost for Islamabad in Kabul. Having put all their eggs in one basket, the military regime was forced to plead with the American President for crumbs in the power sharing formula for a post Taliban Kabul.

The heady days of US support in September led the military regime to warn India to ``lay off``. But the war ended too quickly for Islamabad. General Dostum in the North, rather than General Musharaf in the south, became the catalyst to force the Taliban retreat.

Islamabad still remains fixated with external props. In so doing, it neglects the internal realities. Even as the West helps fill Islamabad`s empty coffers, the economic recession continues. Capital lacks confidence in a military dictatorship governing a country with unstable borders in the North and the east and an uncertain direction.

Trade is the key to economic salvation yet it is a key lost in the Maddrassas of Pakistan. Here the men learn to fire guns instead of learning to manage businesses, lives or society.

Yet the lesson of the twentieth century is the reality of economic power. Releasing economic power requires pre-requisites that include freedom, rule of law, deregulation and open competition.

Economic interests play a critical role in building peaceful relations for trading parties. Trading relations increase the joint economic welfare of trading partners.

The ``national interest`` has become the prerogative of the Establishment. Therefore debate is silenced and its forums, such as the Parliament, redundant. Those who challenge the so called ``national interest`` are termed traitors who should be stripped of their citizenship. The pursuit of such intolerant policies breeds a culture of intolerance. Yet that culture of intolerance must be challenged if Pakistan is to become a vibrant state standing on its own inherent strengths. The time for policies of brinksmanship, calculated to bring in external props, needs to stop.

In modern management students are taught that the customer is always right. In modern state craft, the realisation is still to come that the voter is always right. The determination of some Generals to reject the view of the voter makes them part of the problem.

Amazingly, several top military leaders of Pakistan made disastrously wrong predictions on military matters. In 1990, some of the Generals predicted that Iraq would turn into America`s Vietnam. This time round, they predicted that Americans would be caught by the Taliban when the ground war started. A few years back, they predicted that the Kargil adventure would bring the country glory.

The political leadership, untrained in military matters, was correct in warning the people that a superior military force would triumph over an inferior military force. This contrast between the predictions of some leading Generals and the political leadership on the three key issues of the Kuwait occupation in 1990, the Kargil fighting in 1999 and the Kabul war 2001 are clear evidence of the need for political direction in a given country. History notes that War is too serious a business to be left Generals.

ylh #249

SHAME! SHAME ! SHAME !

You donot read your own newspapers.
http://www.dawn.com/2001/07/03/top1.htm

``...In Dir and Malkand districts, Tehrik Nifaz-i-Shariat Muhammadi did not allow women to cast their votes. In Dir where 137,000 women voters were registered, not a single woman was permitted to exercise the right of franchise....``


Where does Hindu culture come in? How could such a thing happen? Where were all the Islamic scholars and activists who are supposed to defend Islam`s unique rights for women??

And what about this letter, is this a serious enough situation for young chowk Pakistanis to forget bashing Gandhi and Hindu culture and get on with the real job?

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/070701/editor/let1.htm
The tension between militant religious groups and NGOs has once again boiled over into confrontation in the NWFP. At the centre of the latest storm is a network of community-run girls` schools set up by Khawenda Khor, a local welfare organization. 
Khawenda Khor works with village communities to set up schools in areas where there is a dearth of girls` schools. A number of religious groups have threatened to burn down all such schools in the province if the NGO schools in Karak district are not closed down. Earlier, the organization`s schools in Dir were targeted by extremists who claim the schools are encouraging obscenity. This is preposterous. Banning education for women is reprehensible, and against the spirit of the religion these groups profess to propagate. 
Islam in no way discourages, far less prohibits, women`s education. Religion is being used as a cover for tribal customs and notions. The provincial authorities, fearful of provoking a law and order situation, have not heeded requests for security by the terrified staff and students of the schools, which remain shut, nor acted to restrain those openly threatening violence. 
Are extremist organizations above the law? Are they free to issue inflammatory statements and fatwas, and even death threats, against anyone disagreeing with their interpretation of Islam? From NGOs to women voters, cable operators, dissenting students and those espousing a weapon-free society, the militants are targeting a widening cross-section of the NWFP population. The outcome of pursuing the current policy of appeasement could well be a steady descent into anarchy.-SHAUKAT KHAN, USA,via e-mail, July 3. 


Is a nonMuslim equal to a Muslim or not? You say he should be, how many chowkwallahs discussing on this board, the perfection of Islam as revealed 1400 years ago, accept that?

Bharatiya musalman/ylh/sarwari?Aisha?-whatever

What is going on? Do you guys know each other (as well as the author)?. Obviously, you are throwing very personal barbs at each other.

Hey, I got no problems that you guys are doing it in this very public forum. In fact, I find it very amusing:) However, if you want your back & forth barbs to be read by all of us, then you better spill out some background info.

I`m not condoning what the Indian muslim said. It seems to me, ylh, that you are suggesting that he is an idiot & thats why he was rejected by the lady/ or he`s trashing Pakistan because `` the unattainable Pakistani grapes are sour``.

I`m warning you---if you want this tamasha to go on in Chowk, you better give us the... er Full Monty:)

ENQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW!

ylh,

{{{my personal reason for stopping that Indian from raising his flag at the `Junoon` concert... because Indians have a funny habit of claiming anything good that comes out of Pakistan as `Indian` .... Nusrat Fateh Ali... Junoon .. etc.}}}

Wow! If the Indians you`ve come across claim that Junoon & Nusrat are Indian, then they are real idiots. I guess Indians at Rutgers are downright wierd. I dont find anything ``funny`` in that habit.

I`m not interested in either Indian or Pakistani music. Even then, I know that these people are Pakistani. How do I know that? Because I read Indian newspapers ocassionally. Never have I come across any Indian who claimed these people were Indian. In fact, I`ve read 100s of 1000s of Indians filled the theaters eagerly to listen to these performers from Pakistan, not to mention buying their CDs.

I hope you dont mind if Indians love to listen Pakistani performers! I also hope that their CDs & cassettes that Indians buy, give them the financial royalties that they deserve. Despite the fact that I dont think the Indian film industry gets a single paisa from the 100s of thousands of Pakistanis who eagerly watch pirated Indian films--no matter how lousy they are.

I have a few questions re your flamboyant statement of slapping that Indian at the Junoon concert for having the balls to wave the Indian flag.

1)You talked at that person directly, as if that Indian is a visitor at Chowk. Is he? If he is, then please identify him because I`d really like to know from him, why he was waving the Indian flag?

If your answer to this question is ``YES``, then please disregard the next question/observation. But then I`d really have a few questions to ask that individual.

2) If you were just making a statement that you want everybody on Chowk to know what a tough guy you are; & what lenghts you would go to defend your national pride--then I`m afraid that you have the maturity & mentality of a high school kid.

It doesnt take a huge feat of courage to slap an Indian among a sea of Pakistani fans.

But let me give you the benefit of the doubt. I`m assuming BEFORE you slapped that guy, you asked him why he`s waving the Indian flag? And I`m assuming he told you ``because Junoon is Indian, not Pakistani``.

If my assumptions are correct , then I can empathise why you slapped him. Mind you I`m not condoning your slapping him. A more mature response would have probably been shrugging your shoulder & saying `` that kind of idiotic bigotry is your problem, Indian, not mine``.

On the other hand, if my assumptions are wrong , & you are making an ``ass out of you & me``--please let me know; because I have a thing or two to say to you.

Lastly, may I join hands with you when you say ``MAY PAKISTAN LIVE FOREVER!!``? However, may I make a humble request? you`ve made your point about Pakistan`s immortality & your pride for your country & religion(about half a billion times, no less). Your point is well taken (again, about half a billion times) & you have EVERY RIGHT to feel that way (again, I will say that repeatedly about half a billion times). Its ETCHED in our brains---more than you think.

We Indians are`nt as stupid as we sometimes sound. Anybody ,with even half a brain, knows that if Pakistan goes down the tubes, she will pull down India with her. Just because a few idiot Indians put down Pakistan & Islam, doesnt mean theyre right or their predictions will come true.

Ahem , that goes ditto for Pakistani idiots..

Shankar

Totally uncalled for! A diatribe! Perhaps you have been holding that in for too long.

A couple of definitions (from a holier than thou ass//hole): Articles of FAITH

Centrality of Islam is the Quran!

Quran is the revealed word of GOD!

FAITH is not amenable to scientific or logical inspection, it is intuitive, non-scientific.

Please consider the meanings and implications of the word FAITH

If God is perfect, can his revealed word be otherwise? Can it be amenable to change?

You are mixing apples and oranges: The word of God is beyond concepts of eternal -

That Muslims are sinners, flawed, and fall short of the ideal but yet must struggle to live up to the teachings of Islam is a given. I acknowledge the behaviour of some Muslims in Pakistan has been very un-Muslim, I acknowledge that the teachings and interpretations of some ``scholars`` is contrary to, and in many cases highly intolerant of other Muslims and non-Muslims. This cannot mean that Islam itself promotes such.

And is this then enough for good numbers of Indian persons to justify their their hostility towards Islam?

You seem to want to suggest there is a similarity, a kind of parity in the structure of Hinduism and Islam - but there isn`t. These faiths are structured differently, view the world and the eternal differently and operate differently. Consider how Redemption, forgiveness, grace/Karam operate.

Again, if Caste is OK by Hindus, in no way can it be OK by Muslims and Christians. It is the antithesis of those teachings. That outlawing it is not any kind of solution - it is not a creation of law. To say that we have outlawed it is but a copout! By outlawing it, what is prevented is the discussion of it`s merit, it`s origins and questions about the constructs of Hinduism and I suggest to you that this is as big a problem as the caste system itself.

From one ass//hole to another:- please consider!

You are turning this into a Hindu verses Muslim, Pakistani versus India debate. That`s a shame, because you know very well, that a debate about caste and Hindu constructs is long overdue and if fears can be set aside, only good will come from it. Moreover, Hinduism is amenabale to such debate. Ignorance is the enemy, the reward is millions of souls set free.

PM

Convulted and pained.

By definition - the monotheist God cannot be an Idol - Idolatory is false not because of the presence of the Idol but by the worship of the Idol itself. Very many confuse the presence of the idol with the worship of the Idol itself, Christians do not worship the Idol of Christ.

So can Allah/God be an idol - by definition, No!

Ylh,

``Islam protected its minorities in a time when other creeds killed off those who practised a faith unlike their own.``

This is really a outstanding discovery. Really? What happenned to the idol worshippers in Arabia?

What happened to the parsis in Iran during the onslaught of Islam.

``All great things are evolutionary. 1400 years ago, Non Muslims had the protected status... today through evolution in Islamic Thought, they should be equal citizen.``

Is this your personal opinion(I mean they should be equal citizen?) or something has been changed in the Quran, For example see the quotes below.

``Also Mohommed has word from god ,Allah that it is still better to be a sinfull muslim ,than a pious non believer .You can plead for a muslim but even mohommed cannot plead for non muslims.``

Do you believe such outdated verses in Quran be repealed and made void.

hobbyty,

IDOLS OF MATTER AND IDOLS OF MIND

You have correctly classified images and icons as false Gods, imposters. Why not go further?

Take a word, say ROSE. As you say it, the image of a rose appears instantly in your mind. Is that mental image real? You`ll agree, its not.

Now take the word GOD. You`ll no doubt agree you have no ACTUAL idea what a GOD looks like. But yet that word instantly evokes on image in your mind - this time based on your conditioning as a muslim. And that is what you pray to.

Are you saying this mental-image is on a `higher` level than an idol-image or icon-image ???

regards,

Sadna

SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!

THIS IS AN ABSOLUTE OUT AND OUT LIE:

`And not a single NWFP woman was allowed to cast her vote, reportedly, in the recent LB elections : whether this was due to Hindu culture or Islamic culture or was it due to the caste system?`

When did this happen? Another one of your media propaganda? Please refrain from propagating lies. I can assure you that women in NWFP voted in the LB elections. There was one district where women were refrained from voting and that too was done without the consent of the Government. Kindly stop this propaganda now! Two of my aunts have won the local body elections! Do you people forget Benazir Bhutto, was she not the Prime Minister of Pakistan? And didnt the religious parties support Fatima Jinnah`s bid for Presidency? What the hell are you talking about anyway? Sadna, the way you succumb to the devices of Propaganda shows a mischievious machiavellian streak which allows you to even lie in order to get your point proven!

`A question often asked on chowk and this board: if Islam says that a nonMuslim can never be the equal of a Muslim, how can such an Islam be called egalitarian?`

Islam protected its minorities in a time when other creeds killed off those who practised a faith unlike their own. All great things are evolutionary. 1400 years ago, Non Muslims had the protected status... today through evolution in Islamic THought, they should be equal citizen.

Thomas Jefferson in his `Notes on Virginia 1785` talked of the `inherent inferiority of the black race`. Does it mean that the ideals that he espoused and which form the egalitarian basis of the US constitution are invalid? Does the US not derive its spirit from Jeffersonian ideals eventhough today Jefferson would be regarded as the worst racist alive had he continued to espouse the same ideas of White race supremacy. But does it render the spirit of his ideals wrong? Indeed his ideals are the basis for equality for all races, all creeds, all faiths in the US. United States early Franchise was limited to Propertied Free White men... does it undo the spirit of the American Revolution? The declaration of Independence calls the Red Indians `Savages`... does that mean the declaration of Independence is oppressive?



LONG LIVE PAKISTAN!

Mahesh G

Mahesh, are you seriously suggesting that Hindus worship Idols? If Yes, then what is the argument? and if No, then, what`s the argument?

Were there to be a serious debate within Hinduism about the caste system - do you really think, it would be a pervaisive as it is?

Is it not proper to debate the morality and the ethics of using the system of caste as a tool to hold in servitude the minds and bodies of millions of persons?

DO Muslims and Christians, who have a different conception of the human souls relationship to it` creator, and of redemption, salvation, the role of forgiveness, compassion and the grace or karam of God, not finding converts from among the very same castes?

Are we wrong in condemning it as inhuman and intolerant?

Will you not agree that the system of caste has not been promulgated as law but as an essential article of faith?

Do you not agree that as an article of faith and it`s presence for over two thousand years, suggest that legal remedies are but obfuscation? Did Indians promulgate a law to create Hinduism or caste system?

I do not know how to go about undoing the caste system, but I suggest that greater debate on how base, inhuman and vile is this temporal and eternal system of discrimination, is what is required. Can a person claim that the human soul is devine and then subject the repository of that soul to the most foul servitudes, not just within one life time? Can one, claim love and tolerance towards others and simultaneously suggest that certain persons are born to serve others? That the difference between them and others is such that they may not be touched? that only certain vocations remain open to them and not all?

If the system of caste can be said to be a vedic creation, perhaps vedic teachings should also be used to discredit it in the minds of adherents.

Non-Hinidus cannot effect the dissolution of the system of caste in Hinduism. Only Hindus can and should.

My posts are to point out what I percieve as unfair, self righteous, bigotry directed towards Islam and Muslims and my perception of the caste system as evil incarnate. It is not the case that one or two Indians have shown Ignorance, but rather a good number mask their aversion and hostility towards Islam by seeking to justify their ignorance by taking refuge in and poluting secularism. Narrowly defining secularism as anti Islamism - a disservice to secularism and a show of ignorance. They claim that Islam lays too much emphasis on the ummah and not the brotherhood of all men, if this were true, would there be Muslims through out the world? Is it not anti Islamic and intolerant, to demonstrate hostility towards notions and calls for unity among Muslims? If within Hinduism, ideology such as the birth and existence of ten of millions of persons soley for the purpose of serving those in higher castes are not overcome, and if this discrimination, as an article of faith, carries on, would one not be concerned about how non-Hindus would fare? If Hindus as an article of faith are required to treat their coreligionists with disdain and callousness - can claims of tolerance towards non-Hindus be valid?