Brahmin and Mullah

``Also Mohommed has word from god ,Allah that it is still better to be a sinfull muslim ,than a pious non believer .You can plead for a muslim but even mohommed cannot plead for non muslims.``

And this is the perfect religion you espouse?

A muslim who is drunkard, rapist, killer is any day better than pious person who doesn`t believe in Islam? And you claim this as the religion of equality? And these are the verses on which this article author`s ``secular`` pakistan is based upon? And India should be following the glorious example of this kind of ``Secular`` Sharia based on the ``Complete`` religion.

And what the heck is this, today we have perfected the religion? How many attempts did god make to ``perfect`` this religion? His trial runs with Judaism and Christianity were not perfect, so we have the ``Perfect/Complete`` religion in Islam? Does it mean this god is incompetent?

Coming back to the question of equality, Should Islam whose main prophet had several slaves, be talking about it? And for those who will quote those verses about manumission, question is why not ban slavery in the first place? The god through the prophet of yours didn`t allow the idol worship in mecca and madina( and elsewhere in the Darul-islam he could have just as well said in one of his pristine verses(Easy to understood accroding to Quran itself) that Slavery is abolised. But no,

he has other pearls of wisdom to give on whether the captured people(POW/Slaves) can be F *Cked.Off-course they can be in Islam or am I wrong? As usual I am ready to corrected, if any info is misleading.

Should Islam whose main prophet, kills a woman`s father and husband and then does the usual thing i.e.,marry her and claims the perks that go with it(or did he claim the perk before he married her?),be talking equality especially Equality for Women? Anyways shouldn`t the most beautiful women be in the booty of the prophet? Maybe thats besides the point, but that surely leaves his bodygaurds/followers on their toes the whole night, while he is doing the sacred deed of consumating his booty.. err.. his Wife?

Anyways` How can the highway robbery be justified? Offcourse with the help of god.

Doesn`t the idol worshippers have any rights? Or is it the sacred duty of the Pure religion/Complete religion`s followers to massacre them wehere ever they see them(StuBaker please do the needful by Quoting the correct verse)? Is this also part of the ``Secular`` government duties of this Tony, the italian American muslim?

A question often asked on chowk and this board: if Islam says that a nonMuslim can never be the equal of a Muslim, how can such an Islam be called egalitarian?

Can anyone quote where is there a similar fundamental and necessary requirement wrt caste discrimination in `Hindu` philosophy or belief which is `binding` on Hindus?

And not a single NWFP woman was allowed to caste her vote, reportedly, in the recent LB elections : whether this was due to Hindu culture or Islamic culture or was it due to the caste system?

Is it Islamic culture or Hindu culture not to even know that NWFP women couldnot cast their votes due to threats from Islamic organisations?

Hi Mona.

I know what you mean. You should read

[``Stability,`` said the Controller, ``stability. No civilization without social stability. No social stability without individual stability.`` His voice was a trumpet.]

Another favourate part...

[``He`s so ugly!`` said Fanny.

``But I rather like his looks.``

``And then so small.`` Fanny made a grimace; smallness was so horribly and typically low-caste.

``I think that`s rather sweet,`` said Lenina. ``One feels one would like to pet him. You know. Like a cat.``

Fanny was shocked. ``They say somebody made a mistake when he was still in the bottle–thought he was a Gamma and put alcohol into his blood-surrogate. That`s why he`s so stunted.``

``What nonsense!`` Lenina was indignant.

``Sleep teaching was actually prohibited in England. There was something called liberalism. Parliament, if you know what that was, passed a law against it. The records survive. Speeches about liberty of the subject. Liberty to be inefficient and miserable. Freedom to be a round peg in a square hole.``

``But, my dear chap, you`re welcome, I assure you. You`re welcome.`` Henry Foster patted the Assistant Predestinator on the shoulder. ``Every one belongs to every one else, after all.``

One hundred repetitions three nights a week for four years, thought Bernard Marx, who was a specialist on hypnopædia. Sixty-two thousand four hundred repetitions make one truth. Idiots!

``Or the Caste System. Constantly proposed, constantly rejected. There was something called democracy. As though men were more than physico-chemically equal.``

``Well, all I can say is that I`m going to accept his invitation.``

Bernard hated them, hated them. But they were two, they were large, they were strong. ]



In this book, everyone is made for everyone else, but everyone is not equal to everyone else, the Alpha`s are the higher castes and the betas the less higher and the Gammas are the lowest: kind of mutants.

None of these groups wanted to be anyone else, and his was done through conditioning. Somehow, it was an insightful experience and I could relate to the culture of the Subcontinent, the society that can trace its roots to stratification as a norm.

YOu said, ``Why I make comment on Hindu bashing is that many of the facts are not confirmed before making specific remarks. Just doing minor and meeting few people one does not become an expert. One has to live through or along with it to know what exactilly goes on.``

True!

...Got to run,

later

Aisha

Bhartiya Musalman 112

Before I can begin to comment on the excrement that you have splashed on this board, I must say, that every time I think we cant go any lower, we hit a new low. Your entry on chowk will indeed be classified as the lowest of the low chowk has ever witnessed.

It is my belief in humanity that makes me believe that no one, and I repeat no one can be as stupid as to make comments like the one you made in 112. Hence it is only logical to believe that you are going through a severe trauma of some sort to your overinflated ego.

It doesnot serve to assume. Anthony Aschettino and myself, we dont frequent the mosque, and secondly bigoted as Mosque Mullahs maybe, they dont bash Hinduism in the Mosques, though that maybe the case with Mosques in India. Secondly we are not wahabis. My mother is a shia for example... and Anthony`s parents are devout catholics. I am a simple Muslim, and a Pakistani first second and last.

I thank you for your invitation to join your imaginary organization. However, I cannot accept your invitation, because I dont have time to play with little kids.

Finally you say ``` I`ll treat you as a brother if you accept the Prophet (PBUH) and Allah)``. How ridiculous is that? as ridiculous as the caste system.``

On my board you wrote (Post 367)

`Firstly, you are my Bhai as I am a devout Muslim and believe in the Brotherhood of Islam.`

Kindly explain this disparity. Now see the problem you have posed? On one hand you are using `brotherhood of Islam` to which I said that I renounce the brotherhood of Islam... on the other hand you are talking of how ridiculous that concept is... Which one is it?

It is increasingly clear to me that you are a product of the confused Indian Educational system which confuses people by muddling the definitions of secular and multicultural.

So, your Ami (mata ji) proposed to Aisha on your behalf and she said no! Why do you have to take it out on Pakistan? Did it occur to you that it might be because you demonstrate very little ability to be mature, or sensible? And now you are forming imaginary organizations (Deen e Ilahi Again) to get back at her?

-YLH

PAKISTAN WILL LIVE ON TILL ETERNITY!

Sarwari 222 & 223,

Great posts.... very enlightening ... see how better it is when you post like this instead of threatening to bomb India... by making those threats you divert attention from your great intellectual capacity!

I wouldnt worry about Upman, ... he and Bhartiya Musalman are from the same creed... they both came in declaring that all Pakistanis are shallow, and lack in `intellectual rigor` but over the course of time both expose their ignorance, arrogance, lack of objective knowledge, and their bigoted attitude towards Pakistan.

This attitude of arrogance, ignorance, and bigotry seems to be all pervasive in the people towards are east. It is a miracle that people like Eklavya, Dostmittar, Veeresh, Shammi, etc exist in India.

Long Live Pakistan

To Schmuck / Klutz

No religion has to descend to the levels of the Cola empire to quote numbers and say they are th best. That is akin to a Tobacco company claiming superiority based upon numbers.

If somebody has to stoop to numbers to justify their (sic) greatness , then you have lost my attention.Why should somebody care whether there is one god or there is a multitude of them. Where is the evidence. Live for here for now , there is no need to instill fear into people about sins, the hereafter etc. and then leave them with your ``singular choice``. ( eg. AmReeka wight be presented with a liberal version , SE ASia might see the traditional desert version that is reserved for babarians I suppose).

As far as numbers go , I am cynical as are many others, a considerable portion could be through reproduction and many might be led the `` * * * * * *`` way by many inducements.

So prove that the only God is the only god that exists etc. and then beat your chests with your pride.

Intellectual Dishonesty...

Anyone who compares the division of Germany to Pakistan India division... is not only intellectually dishonest, but rabidly crazy!

Old `Hinduvtist` dreams die hard ! Still where were you when Jinnah had accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan in 1946?

Let me state for the record!... we will not agree to any such arrangement with India... we gave you a chance in 1946, you should have taken it. Now Pakistan exists... and Pakistan will exist till eternity!

Advani suggests confederation

NEW DELHI July 7: In a significant remark in the run up to the Musharraf-Vajpayee summit, Union Home Minister L.K.

Advani has suggested the formation of a Confederation of South Asian states, including India and Pakistan.

``I am confident that Vajpayee`s initiative will create a conducive atmosphere in the direction of the formation of a

Confederation of India, Pakistan, Burma, Sri Lanka and Nepal in the days ahead,`` Advani added.

He said the world was witnessing sweeping changes and arch rivals such as the two German republics have now reunited,

reports PTI.

The Sangh Parivar, to which the ruling BJP belongs, had originally propounded the concept of `Akhand Bharat` or united

India, which comprises the whole of South Asia, including Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Advani, however, said he disagreed with the Western perception of Kashmir as a dispute between India and Pakistan. ``We

do not see Kashmir in the context of Pakistan. For us, it is inseparably linked to India`s unity,`` he said.

Advani said the concept of self-determination espoused by separatist groups would prove detrimental more to the interests

of Pakistan as it had diverse ethnic and linguistic groups within its boundaries.-NNI

re. hobbyty #232:

``Do any of these fit the monotheist tradition`s description of God? Please reconsider.``

hobbyty, let me rehash the gist of my post (#225) to klutz:

Any THING can be turned into an idol, including concepts, and even if we pin attritbutes such as `unknowable, inscrutable` etc. to those concepts. They are no different from visual representations (and sometiems worse) IF THERE IS NO CONNECTION TO ONE`S PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AT A DEEPLY PERSONAL LEVEL. Needless to say, even if the connection exists, the virute in faith is not to be taken for granted. (Wasn`t the faith of fascist German, for wxapmle, really bereft of idols?)

For these reasons, I think that while it is wholly desireable to strive for personal religious enlightenment/finding God etc., criticizing others` metaphysics or glorifying in numerolgoy is both ignorant and self-defeating.

Let me repeat a passage of my #225, emphasis added this time:

``...perhaps you will give some more thought to these matters before you feel feel that sense of superiority associated with the number One, or the IDOLIZED form of the REALITY TO WHICH Allah/God/Baghwan/Yahweh POINT.``

In the end, the reality is a wholly personal experience.

rgds,

PM

To all: apologies for the typos.. my dyslexia seems to be blooming with the daisies.

PM,

I just got the chance to read your post... my personal reason for stopping that Indian from raising his flag at the `Junoon` concert... because Indians have a funny habit of claiming anything good that comes out of Pakistan as `Indian` .... Nusrat Fateh Ali... Junoon .. etc.

No it would not be right if I ripped off an Indian flag in an Indian concert because that would show `hatred` ... I always stand up for the Indian National Anthem at the Indian functions.... but this is a Pakistani Band, which should not be claimed as Indian by India...

God bless the Junoon, they always sing `Jazba Junoon` (the Pakistan Song) whether they are in NYC, LA or New Dehli!

Long Live Pakistan!

Monaseghal to Bhartiya Musalman:

`Your remark related to a muslim convert from lower caste is most uncalled for.`

YLH says : Caste Ideology is all pervasive (in the Indian Union) despite secularism(?), Democracy(?), Islam(?)... I believe that is the point of this article! You have to fix the basic societal structure.... harping an indigenous definition of secularism and democracy in schools is not going to cut it.

tahmed,

I am glad you liked it :). I was reading your post to Sarwari on the other board in which you spread pearls of idealism (which exist outside the gandhian framework also)... but let me say this.. in any marriage, there has to be compatibility which breeds admiration and love.

Compatibility comes with the oneness of mission, and hence I personally I would like Sarwari marry any Pakistani regardless of religion race caste or creed as long as their mission is one with mine, ie Progressive Modern Pakistan as one of the greatest nations on earth.

Bhartiya Musalman

Dont beat yourself so much.... there is a long list of rejected Indian Muslim Suitors from what I understand when it comes to Aisha Sarwari. Even if you had not been uneducated, biogted, fundamentalist, confused, unsophisticated, illiterate and Ugly like you are , your mission (creation of a pan islamic khilafat and the greater state of India) can never be same as Aisha`s whose goal from what I know is a modern Progressive strong and Sovereign Pakistan.

Waisay, you keep harping about Pakistan being a failed state... when educated intellectuals say it there are reasons to it? Why are you saying it? Because your ami abu (pita ji mata ji) said it? You keep talking of a common South Asian Muslim culture and then you declare two nation theory is false ... when culture was the basic premise of TNT.

So tell me why should Pakistan be dissolved?

1) Is it the Economy? Because till the 1990s we outperformed India, and until recently atleast we had a greater GDP per capita than India... If we are in a bad patch for 10 years, my training in Economics tells me that its not that big of a deal because did they dissolve US in the great depression when US was performing much worse than Pakistan? Latin American Countries have been in much worse crisis than Pakistan for decades with spiralling super duper inflations.... I havent heard of Mexico, or Argentina, or Chile, or Equador being dissolved? Mexico even has US next to it.... which is much more developed than India can ever be.

2) Is it the poverty? Because one visit will show you that Pakistan does not have slums like Calcutta... even in the heaviest populated city like Karachi which stands with in top 15 in the world. If Pakistan was a failed state how did Karachi a fishertown of 55 000 become a metropolitan of 15 million people in just 53 years? How did Lahore gets so developed? How did Pakistanis create a city out of scratch which is one of the most beautiful cities in the world ? Islamabad? ( and on a side noteHow come atleast one of the Pakistan`s airports, Quaid e Azam International Karachi, is voted as one of the most beautiful in the world?)

3) Is it the ethnic tension ? Because whereas Pakistan has at most 3 semi active ethnic movements, India has 17 indigenous independence Movements from what I know, and I can atleast name 5 different myself, but you wont hear from Yasser Hamdani that India should be dissolved... because I simply dont care.

4) Is it because Pakistan cant keep up with India`s defence expenditure, and Pakistan cant make ICBMs, well you`ve got me on that one ... but I hardly doubt Pakistan would be dissolved for that reason or many sane Indians (unlike yourself) would want it dissolved for that reason.

5) Is it because you are a confused Pan-Islamist Indian Muslim who wants to devise stupid plans to dissolve Pakistan just so that you can face your rejection from Aisha Sarwari, ... well dream on, because Pakistan will go on because it is a nation and it will live as a nation and die as a nation.

Long Live Pakistan .. Pakistan will live on till eternity INSHALLAH!

And to borrow from Ataturk`s famous Turk Nationalist statement ... `Lucky are those who can call themselves Pakistanis`.

Upman,

Does `Bhartiya Musalman` have the `intellectual rigor` that I lack? Because if it is, then I am glad that I lack such `intellectual rigor` (Read bigoted ignorance).

Long Live Pakistan

Hobbytv,

{{Indeed it is amazing that the same Indians who claim that Islam is intolerant and at war with the world, are also, in the lead to be intolerant towards Islam.}}

Listen, Mr Holier-than-thou pal, we hindus can say the same thing about some of the muslim posts on this thread. If Islam claims that their followers should respect all religions, how come some of the Islamic stalwarts on Chowk are intolerant to other religions?

Havent you champions of Allah insulted Hindus & Christians here?! You look down upon idol worship of hindus & the ``booze, song & dance`` of Christians. You seem absolutely oblivious to such statements (& many more) that have cropped up, not just on this thread , but for the last several years. I`m not saying we hindus are respectful to muslims---NOT AT ALL, unfortunately. But dont tell me you muslims or Pakistanis are these very courteous, respectful & civil posters who attack ONLY when provoked.

Seems to me ,in Pakistan, when hinduism or India is insulted, nobody ever challenges those views. It is accepted very matter-of-factly. Its not even considered impolite. Cyberspace is a different ballgame. Indians & hindus will give just as much as they get. Dont like it, when you get a taste of your own medicine eh? Like my friend URstruly says, give respect to get respect. So when you bash other religions & countries, have the balls to get your religion & country bashed as well. And DONT tell me that its the Indians or the hindus who always start these fights!

Some of you muslims are ignorant of the core philosophy of hinduism--hindus believe in one supreme God too. We may symbolise Him in the form of idols & give Him many names; but we believe in the same God as you. When you muslims sanctimoniously say (or imply) ``our way of praying to God is the only TRUE way, & the rest of you are inferior, immoral, ignorant heathens``; you are behaving just like the brahmins who look down upon other castes.

Yeah, caste system is WRONG, very wrong. Dowry is wrong, sati is wrong, female infanticide is wrong (er hindu religion does`nt condone that). Yes, we are attempting to correct the wrongs in our religion by passing laws. Is that enough? has the problem been solved--heck NO! But were trying. At least we have the BALLS to admit the faults in our religion.

Islam is PERFECT is`nt it? God forbid if anybody has the balls to point out its imperfections in Pakistan--his arse is in jail for blasphemy. Those who deviate from the dominant discourse of Islam are OUTCAST. Ask an Ahmedi or a Qiadiani---they are OUTCAST. God help them if they have the BALLS to call themselves muslims! Wow! What a perfect tolerant religion!!

Who is MORE perfect Sunnis or Shias? In your zeal to demonstrate that either is perfect, you even KILL each other! Allah must be very very proud of HIS favourite children, when they HATE each other & find reason to comit murder during one of your religious festivals---all in the name of HIS glory. Wah! Wah! Subhanallah!

Among Sunnis, who is MORE perfect--the deobandis, barevalis or wahabbis? Er, where do the sufis fall in the arguement of PERFECTION? Islam does`nt have a caste system. But you sure as heck have a SECT SYSTEM. Islam is Egalitarian, only in THEORY--in practice? MY FOOT! When a hindu refuses to marry into another caste--he`s goddamned shameless, as far as I`m concerned. JUST as shameless as a sunni refusing to marry a shia or an ahmedi; or vice versa. Dont tell me that doesnt happen.

So ALL muslims follow a PERFECT religion. But let me remind you of one tiny little fact---some muslims are MORE PERFECT than others.

So, you PERFECT children of Allah, I freely admit, we hindus have many, many things about our religion we are ashamed about. But we get pissed off when you holier-than-thou perfect assholes have the BALLS to stand in judgement of us. If you think Allah has given you the right to think you are better than everybody else; guess what -- you`re wrong.

Hobbyty, so are all idol worshippers idiots?

Hobbyty,

Are muslims being bombed just because they love fellow Muslims? Can you substantiate that please.

Hindus are unwilling to discuss the caste system? Can you point specifically to any?

So, how do you think that Hindus should get rid of this scourge of a caste system? If you have any better ideas other than outlawing it in the constitution please let us know.

PM 225

I am hurt to read such a post come from you - please reconsider

Idol :

1. A image

2. A representation or symbol of an object of worship; broadly: a false God

3. A pretender, Imposter

4. A form or appearance visible but without substance.

5. False conception, a fallacy.

Do any of these fit the monotheist tradition`s description of God? Please reconsider.