Brahmin and Mullah

Reply Tahmed321 #454

Once I find out I`m worng, the only decent thing to do is to admit it. I`m not to proud to learn! Thank you again.

Reply Sadna #456

During the Shah Bano thing my mother was one of a group of Indian Muslim women who went to Rajiv Gandhi and pressed him to support divorced muslim women`s right to maintenance. He came across as a decent, likeable man, but his response basically boiled down to:

``I cannot have more riots.``

IMHO the only reason there is support for an outdated (and often corrupt) understanding of Islamic law among Indian Muslims is indeed that they (we) have felt under siege (for a variety of reasons) since 1947. As you pointed out (I think), this feeling is waning and that support changing.

sadna #351: ``but for certain types of changes 50 years can even be too much time. ``

Agreed.

jntuece99 #353: Thanks for Srinivas` link! I am attached to the rural Andhra too.

sadna #459: ``And I definately differ from the author of this article and any other Pakistanis who make the case again and again that the inequities of Hindu culture are primarily to be held responsible.``

Ok, so who is losing - the Hindu majority India or the Islamic Republic of Pakistan?

I say, we watch as a separate country as Pakistan takes its course! I for one learnt to enjoy the Pakistani piss and vinegar and the amusement at such articles on Chowk, after hanging out with some in real life. Nostalgia of our own writers should dry out soon. (i owe you a reply from Patwardhan`s board sometime ago - later!)

Ours is a manda gaja gamanam (slow elephant`s walk)! [remotely related to your #351 - govt officials are literally spotting the children wokring in people`s fields and homes without going to schools and putting them in the schools. As the kids run away not being used to the academics, they get picked up again - news from a friend`s mother from the Telangana countryside.]

tahmed321 #462
I am not as optimistic as you. If the already-educated choose to sit on their hands while their compatriots pursue ruinous policies, then what is to be expected from educating the rest?

Fundamentalism is only filling a vacuum which ought ot have been filled by ideas and solutions out there in the public discourse. If assemblies, ministers and political campaigns are out in the open discussing price rises, inflation, unemployment, civic amenities and law and order, it would put the fundamentalists out of business.

In India the situation is also different in that we have the Constitution to throw at any extremists.

Friend #460

``Ahmed,

What is there in a name? If you wish I will call you Prof Ahmed or sir. You may still call me a roach. But talking is better (than not talking).

Let us call it a draw``

Thanks, tahmed or ahmed or tahmed321 is fine. I never called you a roach incidentally, although I did refer to the roach on the subject of the brain transplant. I am sorry if that offended you or sadna, and I realize that the use of the term must have sounded more offensive than was intended since people associate the it with a disgusting creature. I was thinking only of it as a small insect with a tiny brain. In any case, I was wrong to belittle Sadna and you the way I did.

You can call it a draw. I will be perfectly happy to let you be the winner if you like, since this kind of a ``race to the bottom`` is not something I care to spend time on. I think you will agree that this is not a race that is worth your while either.

No hard feelings, and best wishes in your real life. :-)

sadna #461 It is true that Indo-Pakistan relations, or India per se, cannot be blamed for the rise of Islamists in Pakistan. Absolutely not. What I was trying to say was this: if there are good relations between the two countries, then the chances of the Islamists coming to power in Pakistan (and the Hindutvas in India - while you do not mention them in your post - they are not that much farther away from power in India, if at all, than Islamists are in Pakistan) are reduced. And religious chauvinism is by no means the major problem in either country, although it is a problem. The real problem is poverty. Fix that and religious fundamentalists in South Asia become as much of a joke as the religious fundeamentalists (the christian variety) in the US.

And tahmed321
Speaking of polite behaviour on discussion boards, the examples of `polite behaviour` set on other boards including the Farzana Versey board hasnot quite escaped my attention.

tahmed321 #459

Peace (or lack thereof) between India and Pakistan is not the reason why though as you say ``Islamists failed over and over again in winning elections and by now have given up that path`` , Bhutto did what he did, why Zia did what he did regarding Islamisation of society, why the Federal Shariat Apellate court even came into existence, or the Council of Islamic Ideology.

Tensions between India and Pakistan is not the reason why Musharraf`s Religious Affair minister reportedly sent him a draft ordinance named Hisbah ordinance. Have you heard of it?

Constitutional checks and balances : you are very right. But `they` realised first and `they` were there first, starting many years ago. Take a look at the `Islamic` provisions in the Pakistani Constitution.

Regarding bringing about changes in these Islamic provisions(if thats what Pakistani moderates want, thats not clear either).

Well, for eg Musharraf didnot have demonstrable public support enough to face down the Islamists(who never won many seats in an eletion) in the matter of amending the procedure for filing cases under the blasphemy law, he had to backtrack for such a minor change. Then how on earth will he(or any other leader) ever have the power to undo the Constitutional changes made by Zia if he has to do it as his personal responsibility instead of a vociferous demand from the `moderate` majority?

Nawaz Sharif who did have enough support in the National Assembly, went ahead with pursuing his total Sharia amendments. Where was Indo-Pak tension a factor in the public apathy toward what he did?

btw, Bin Laden and his popularity among Islamists in Pakistan has very little to do with India and Pakistan, it has more to do with Afghanistan and Pakistan.

According to reports, many thousands of Pakistanis are fighting in Afghanistan alongside the Taliban. These fighters are recruited openly in Pakistani cities and religious schools. Is that of less significance to the clout Islamists have, than Indo-Pak differences?


Coming to inter-ethnic/sectarian conflict, the religious hardline dimensions of this are not related to Indo-Pak tension, either. There is no reason why the Kashmir issue which unites all Pakistanis should cause Pakistani sectarian organisations to gain in membership and influence and then think it profitable to indulge in violence within Pakistan. Here,too, IMO, only the moral force of a peaceloving united majority asserting itself can prevail, just a competent police force or army guns or harsh legal measure/ procedures willnot suffice.

In the face of all these challenges (including possible apathy of majority Pakistanis, which is what is being discussed), to all that is `good` in Pakistan, I differ with you on the relative importance of `being polite` on chowk.

And I definately differ from the author of this article and any other Pakistanis who make the case again and again that the inequities of Hindu culture are primarily to be held responsible.

tahmed321 #458

``friend #457 If you wish to discuss anything further with me, you will first need to address me properly.``

Ahmed,

What is there in a name? If you wish I will call you Prof Ahmed or sir. You may still call me a roach. But talking is better (than not talking).

Let us call it a draw

Sadna #456 ``Neither Bhutto lacked education...``

Bhutto did it not due to his religious beliefs (Bhutto was hardly a religious man), but for political reasons (to satisfy the Jamaat i Islami). The Ahmedis were indeed shamefully treated. The reasons for the lack of strong public outcry against this treatment are I think not simple - they are a mix of public apathy, lack of empathy for a highly successful minority community.

``To keep these educated people doing bad things in check, we need other educated people to participate and speak up. ``

Agreed. Ultimately of course it is constitutional checks and balances that keep ``educated people from doing bad things``. While individuals can can and do speak out, we need institutional checks. In Pakistan we have a problem because state institutions are weakened by parallel ``islamic`` institutions (shariah courts) thanks to Zia. But the war goes on: the postponement of implementation of an interest-free banking system by one year is one such victory, and not the only one. Islamists failed over and over again in winning elections and by now have given up that path (they did not participate in the last national elections). They tried to gain power in the army, but have failed. However, there is no guarantee that they will not force their way to the top. Peace between India and Pakistan, will I think go a long way towards ensuring that neither the Islamists in Pakistan nor the Hindutvas in India ever gain power. And this peace does require building bridges among ordinary people. And on Chowk provides us one such place to build bridges (rather than burn them, as too many people try to do when they engage in idle India-Pakistan mud-fests).

friend #457 If you wish to discuss anything further with me, you will first need to address me properly.

tahmed321 #437

``You, my friend, have post after post addressed to women posters where you berate them in ways you can only berate a woman (for example, by using words like ``ugly`` that are designed to put down a woman in ways you could never put down a man). There is a basic difference here, and you obviously never learnt that in the gutter.``

Dear Ahmek,

You raised the bar of rudeness and insulting behavior. I am a roach and live in gutter. I took training from you and jumped higher. Why do you have any issue there?

``And I have apologized twice on this board for what I wrote about her IQ. ``

If didn`t see any apology except this post. If you are sincere, I can call it a draw.

anNy #439

``friend sweetie: -- id be bitchy but the weathers lovely...wind and rain...dont feel like dissing...im going to go dance in the rain``

That will be good my lump of sugar!! Dance and enjoy

Zafar #452
``I think the Government would fall in case of disenfranchisement because people would recognise that it?s a slippery slope - not just due to the immediately affected party?s objections. Perhaps I overestimate us?``

Zafar you donot. IMO, Indians are fortunate to have a tradition from pre-Independence times of recognising the importance of truly universal franchise.

You will agree though, mechanisms to act as checks and balances to ensure universal franchise are also as important as acceptance of the basic principle.

Free functioning of political organisations is an important mechanism, the CE of Pakistan and government servants cannot be the sole trustees of this principle of universal franchise, organized citizenry has to buy in, participate in implementing and protecting it too.

The exercise of individual opinions and organized opinions, both are as indispensable as eyes and ears, as much as a free press.

tahmed321 #453
Sorry tahmed, I have no personal differences with you, but I donot think that laws in Pakistan(and other Muslim countries) and even bad laws in India are brought into force by those who lack education.

Neither Bhutto lacked education, nor the distinguished members of the Senate who refused to pass resolutions on honor killings lacked education, the riba judgement is backed by scholarly and comprehensive review of Islamic jurisprudence and neither someone like Rafiq Tarar nor members of the Army who have intervened in elections and supported/encouraged religious/ethnic parties at various times, qualify as people without proper education.


Rajiv Gandhi negated the Indian Supreme Court`s Shah Bano judgement with full consent of his party`s parliamentarians(the Shah Bano judgement was a progressive one, making it incumbent on a divorcing Muslim husband to pay maintanence to his ex-wife).

Rajiv Gandhi passed the Muslim maintanance law nullifying a progressive judgement which would have benefitted Muslim women not because he lacked a good education, the Cambridge-fail that he was :), nor did his MPs who passed the law lack adequate education. The law was passed to placate vocal and influential Muslims who were well educated themselves but considered the judgement a threat to their Muslim identity.

To keep these educated people doing bad things in check, we need other educated people to participate and speak up.

Just like to keep the Hindutva reactionary virus from eating into our institutions and society, we need educated people to speak up.

But I am sure you are as fatigued as myself so let us cease and desist.

Zahra: I too noticed I was spending too much time on chowk (on this board for example). I shall take your good advice, and get down to some work now.

PS But I shall be back sure as God made little green apples. :-)

Zafar Al Talib #449: My hat off to you, sir, on being big enough to not get stuck on one position. You were the calming influence that lowered the temperature on this discussion, and from my post below and Sadna`s earlier post, I think you will agree that we have now reached a satisfactory conclusion.

sadna #444 I think we are basically in agreement then. You mention one issue that remains, i.e.: ``one can still see trends in Islamic societies around the world, which donot bode well for their future as societies where true pluralism(or equality for all religious faiths) is a primary upheld value.`` The concern is there. My view is that religious chauvinism (which is really all that it is, and not much different from ethnic chauvinism) stems from a lack of education. With proper education, people think more logically, and the irrationality of religious and ethnic hatreds becomes clear to them.

So, I believe we have resolved our differences. Cheers.