Brahmin and Mullah

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Dinar as currency

Dr Muhammad Karim Beebani

In the early period of Islam the currency names used were dinar and dirham. Dinar was the name used for gold coin whereas the silver coin was called dirham. Both these currencies were in use for many centuries but as the Muslim empire started disintegrating various countries started adopting names other than these.

Dinar is the only currency name that has appeared in the Holy Qur`aan in chapter No 3 (Aal-e-Imran). This name along with dirham has also been found in many sayings of Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Muslims therefore have great attachment with these names rather than with rupee, taka or other currencies being used in Islamic countries at present. I shall therefore suggest that Islamic countries should adopt the currency name of dinar to show the continuation of the Islamic legacy and scriptural heritage.

On the other hand the currency names being used in Islamic countries have no such historical significance. For example in Pakistan rupee is being used which is derived from Sanskrit language and has a relationship with Hinduism. It is worth mentioning that there are at least five Islamic countries, which are already using dinar as their currency names. These are Kuwait, Jordan, Tunisia, Iraq and Bahrain. I shall therefore request government of Pakistan to consider adopting the currency name of dinar instead of a non-Islamic name of rupee.

Jeddah, Saudi Arabia

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/nov2001-daily/24-11-2001/oped/newspost.htm

Zafar #497
Thanks again! No the length doesnot bother me, check out some of mine :).

Well, apparently in Israel there is a similar debate. Some say about about the Israeli Constitution(which is apparently not written yet) ``why do you need to import something alien from Europe when you have the Bible right here``

The same groups who say this say also say ``Just include a sentence which say ``religious laws are supreme to laws of the people````, that will suffice``. And these groups are the (maybe `ultra`) Orthodox groups.

There are others who say ``Israel was formed for Jews by Jews, it must retain a Jewish character``(which is rather ambiguous about points of view like the above).

There are yet others who say ``All citizens should be equal, including Israeli Arabs, only a secular constitution will suffice``(meaning laws made by the people)

This is partly the reason for my question, sorry if it offended.

Reply Sadna #496

Sadna

From a Muslim point of view (MoR/MoI, please step in, we a relying on you):

Islam provides guidance for all aspects of life. This would include guidance on politics and Government.

If you accept that the ‘ulema is the only group that is qualified to properly understand Islam, then the ‘ulema is logically best equipped to rule.

If you contend, however, that each individual has the right and the duty to try and understand Islam, and to act (let’s say vote) according to their interpretation, then voting by the general populace is the best way to get a Government which achieves Islam’s underlying principles.

EXACTLY this issue goes back to the very early days of Islam – the conflict between the supporters of Umar and the supporters of Ali as to who would lead the community after the death of the Prophet. The former were in the majority – called Sunnis - and their intellectual legacy to Islam is that all Muslims have the right to determine polity and select their leader (read Government) - essentially a democratic approach.

[This might be what people mean when they go on about Islam being a religion of equality. Umar was a relatively early convert, but unrelated to the Prophet. Yet the majority of the community wanted him as leader, not the Prophet’s son-in-law. It may also be of interest to note that women were prominently involved in the struggle on BOTH sides.]

It IS a question of who has the ultimate responsibility/authority to understand what God wants from each individual – the “clergy” or the individual. If I were you I would not phrase it as a choice between people and scripture (too many buttons, or a Lakshman Rekha if you will, to get a measured response). IMO reactionary regimes definitely prefer the “clergy” answer – they’re easier to control than the general population. No prizes for guessing what certain outfits would prefer for the subcontinent. (And it`s consistent with the vote-bank approach to Indian Muslims! Chheechheechhee...) Even Iran’s revolution which started off pretty radical has become reactionary, and I believe that this is the reason.

[I must point out that these tendencies are NOT reflected as a dichotomy between what are today’s Sunni and Shia religious traditions. In fact Shia mysticism can be seen as giving individuals a “bypass” over the ‘ulema and directly to God.]

Hope this is useful. If one is not too literal it should shed some light on Islam, democracy and Mullahism. Please keep in mind that I’ve gone over the historical (and I suppose intellectual) issues as I see them - the role of women and minorities is not concretely discussed, but I think you can follow the drift here?

Best wishes,

Zafar

PS Why is it that I keep feeling the urge to write a small book in response to quite reasonably sized postings from you? I blame my background – after all, the world’s longest English language novel WAS written (predictably) by an Indian. Or perhaps this doesn’t hold up, as you’re Indian too, but manage to be concise? Anyway – apologies, and I will do my best to be brief in future.

Zafar Al-Talib #494
A very good post, thanks. I too find Iran very interesting. Am I right in thinking it boils down to settling the question of who should have supervening authority or sovereignty, the people(meaning their representatives) or the scriptures(meaning interpretors of scriptures).

ylh #490
Is your imagined physical description a compliment or an insult?
Either way it doesnot work.

Allah! Meri haalath dekho! Khuda hafiz kehne ke baad bhi haan men haan milane daura daura aa gaya vaapis…

Sadna

:)

The issue in Turkey is: can a political party which is self describedly Islamic in character take part in the democratic process? Does this participation by definition undermine democracy in the long run? (The Turkish army’s position.) Does the exclusion of such parties undermine democracy in the long run?

In my opinion Turkey’s democracy is harmed by the exclusion of parties with a religious component – if only because this means that the Army has taken upon itself the onus of defining what is acceptable. If an elected parliament did this it would have the right – after all it demonstrably represents the will of the Turkish people. IMO the Army should not have this right. The fact that a significant portion of the Turkish people keep voting for such parties says something.

I do not think that the participation of Islamic parties in Turkey’s Govt. undermines democracy there. Does it undermine secularism? I don’t think it does that in any significant sense either – after all, Istanbul (arguably Turkey’s most secular city) voted in an “Islamist” local Government which was broadly popular. Similarly there are religion allied parties in Europe (the Christian Democrats in Germany, for example) who participate in the democratic process, and whose coming to power has never threatened democracy there.

In India the BJP’s coming to power was a good thing for democracy – and I say this despite disliking the BJP and most of its works. Hindutvawadis who may have felt that their views were not taken into account in Indian polity, and who might have then consistently gone outside the democratic process (as they did with BM demolition, etc.) were brought into the system. Participation in Govt. – especially the need to form a coalition – has mellowed them and made them more responsible. (The BJP even goes through the motions of trying to get Muslim votes.) I strongly feel that democracies get the Governments they deserve. For all their faults, I do not believe that the BJP would resort to widespread violence to remain in power if they were voted out. (They didn’t last time.)

Can Muslim identified political parties in Pakistan work in the same way today? I am not as familiar with the country as with India but I suspect that they could not. (As usual I welcome any civil corrections and arguments on this point from any Pakistanis who have the stamina to go through my posts.) First of all – if they are confident of popular support, are they contending (and winning) elections? Are they respectful enough of the democratic process to give up power when (as always happens to all parties) they are voted out? With the temptation of having the kind of power the Taleban do in Afghanistan before their eyes, and being short sighted about the consequences of that kind of situation, I suspect not.

I do not think that Islam is not compatible with democracy (I’m sure somebody will be delighted to go over facts on early Islam with you that you doubtless already know!), but you have to keep in mind that for centuries Islam was closely associated with political power in a theocratic oligarchy (the Caliphate). This colours how Islam and political power are viewed by many Muslims – especially by those from cultures and countries which are still “midieval” in their outlook (no insult meant, just accurate description - I say that parts of India are also midieval in their outlook). Ataturk’s reforms were brutally undemocratic, but they were necessary at that time because of the weight of this tradition. (Also sometimes petty and I think beside the point. Banning a kind of HAT?) They only succeeded because the military and political collapse of the Caliphate made that kind of mental change possible (and necessary) in its heartland, Turkey. And this kind of collapse is dangerous, because its outcomes are not assured – they could go either way. I don’t indulge in triumphalist “Pakistan is a Failed State” rhetoric, but the lack of clear success by many of Pakistan’s civil institutions is what makes makes a space for theocratic ideology in that country.

I guess it boils down to: religious parties are a sign of health in democracies where a significant portion of the population supports religious influence on national polity, but they only strengthen democracy in countries where the democratic process is very strong and where the public will not support its disruption. An important proviso.

I hope you got this far. ??

Zafar

PS Iran is another extremely interesting example of an Islamic democracy. (The only Islamic Republic in the world today.) Let me say that I do not support or like many, if not most, aspects of current Iranian polity (especially the treatment of religious minorities which is appalling). It is undeniable, however, that Iran is more democratic today than it has ever been before (definitely more than during the rule of the secular Shah) in that all Iranians have a vote, and that vote has more influence on the running of the country than ever before (though still not to level that one would like). One of the hopeful things in Iran is that representatives of different political viewpoints now struggle to get votes – they don’t just struggle in the street (though they unfortunately do that too).

YLH

You have things to say, but every time you`re rude to a woman in this way you undermine yourself and your arguments. If you don`t like someone you don`t have to be pleasant - be unpleasant! But what`s the point of vulgar abuse? It degrades you and leaves their arguments unanswered.

Zafar

BTW

Islam was not the state religion of Pakistan until 1973.

tahmed,

We have Malaysia as a possible example too. Basically in Pakistan we need to secure the joint electorates, and we will have practical parity between Muslims and Non Muslims.

-YLH

`The Turkish military is fiercely secular, no?`

The picture becomes clearer... a chubby, dark skinned fanatical middle aged woman trying to prove a point ...

Pakistan has Islamic injunctions ... NO?

Pakistan had Zia ul Haq .... NO?

Pakistan was made for Islam ... NO?

Prophet Muhammad married 13 times NO?

Islam hates women ... NO?

Turkey is secular but undemocratic ... NO?

Islam thinks Non Muslims are inhuman .. NO?

tahmed no point in trying to make sense to this woman. She raises some good points but that is to fool us, ... she switches very fast from her sensible comments to her rhetoric of hate.

Long Live PAKISTAN

Aha! I edited out my comment ``if anyone mentions Turkey...``.
The Turkish military is fiercely secular, no? and very powerful and has undemocratically intervened to `safeguard` the Turkish brand of secularism.

Quite unlike the Pakistani Army which had Zia in its past and has no plans of ending its 20+ years-long cohabitation with religious parties over the Afghan war.
Check out `Islamic` amendments in the Pakistani Constitution during this period even by `democratic governments` and see if these were related to any quid-pro-quo to religious parties for jihad in Afghanistan.
Hence the Turkish NSC equivalent has had a very different connotation than a Pakistani one will have.
And sure lets give this board a rest, its been nice interacting.

sadna #486 ``In which Muslim country is the church kept separate from the state and how``

In a practical sense, I think one may point to Indonesia (I have visited that country a number of times over the past 20 years and can therefore speak with some confidence) and Turkey (ylh could tell you things about Ataturk that will make you proud to be on the same planet as Turkey). Having travelled a full circle, I think we can let his tired board get some rest.

Reply Sadna #486

The state and religion are kept separate in Turkey - this was a part of a broader ``revolution`` in which Ataturk defined nationality based on Turkishness as opposed to based on religion (with each religious community being a ``millet``) as had been the case under the Ottomans. Turkish law (I believe) was based on the Swiss code (or is it their constitution?). Though not an unmixed success this has largely been a good thing. (What lack of success it has had is due, IMO, to the undemocratic aspects of Ataturk`s reforms.

Sadna, Tahmed - yeh Chowk raha ya Hippie Festival? Anyway - over and out on this board - hope to see both the EC and MoI/MoR elsewhere.

Zafar

aka PM (actually PM is somebody on Chowk already - too confusing!)

PS Coalition with whom? You DARE suggest BM...

And we are almost back to where we started:
``In which Muslim country is the church kept separate from the state and how?``

Sadna #483 Abolishment of the MoR would be my last act on that job, after having ``privatized`` the religious functions of the state.

On how does one go about separating religion and state if one does not have political power to do so. Your guess is as good as mine.

Sadna #483 Abolishment of the MoR would be my last act on that job, after having ``privatized`` the religious functions of the state.

On how does one go about separating religion and state if one does not have political power to do so. Your guess is as good as mine.

tahmed321 #482
Good, that makes it a good chance you can never be MoR. And if you were, you wouldnot be working to abolish your own ministry, now would you?

Anyway, what is the mechanism for such a thing to be practically done namely ``unmix church and state in Pakistan``?

sadna #260 you write ``Having to pay lip service to Islam in all public affairs has only strengthened the position of religious power centres and reinforce the strong position of those who solicit their support including the military and corrupt leaders of more moderate parties, all at the cost of power of the normal citizen.

The real values of Islam are not promoted by these power centres but their lip service puts them even more beyond the reach of corrective action by the normal citizen who is more concerned with roti-kapda and more able to express himself on these subjects than challenge his leaders on religion.``

Very well put, and worth repeating above. You are talking to the converted here on the issue of mixing state and religion. As soon as Zafar appoints me Minister for Religion I shall proceed to abolish Shariah Courts and unmix church and state. Indeed, Islam does not even have the concept of church (or organized priesthood) but that has not prevented people from creating it, so what we have is two, not one, step in the wrong direction - first we create a priesthood, and then we mix it up with the state. The Quran refers to only a couple of states (ancient Egyptian, ancient Roman and Queen Sheba`s state), with most of it`s messages being directed to people`s hearts and to the individual. The state is merely incidental. It talks approvingly of Queen Sheba`s state despite the fact that it was a non-Muslim state. Interestingly, the Shias in Iran for hundreds of years (until around the 17th century I think) deliberately shunned anything to do with the state. This was true for the Jews as well until the successful creation of Israel got nearly all of them to change their minds. Christians of course have gone the other way and explicitly separated church from the state (although we see a small rear-guard action in the US).

Zafar Al-Talib #477 #479
Thanks.
And the EC post, well let me nominate you as hon. PM but warn you that its a very very fragile coalition you have here :).

tahmed321 #478
Being `less armed` is only one of many points I made and apparently an acknowledgement of these or acknowledgement of the HRW report and its relevance to religious chauvinism in Pakistan was too much to expect, but whats new?

I donot see any activity in India equivalent to open recruitment of underage boys through mosques and madarassahs by political/religious organisations for fighting a religious war to the extent that reportedly ``30%`` of the fighting force of the most repressive government in the world [namely the Taliban] is made up of Pakistanis.

The Shah Bano issue makes clear that its not a phenomenon unique to Pakistan that some in power use the spurious excuses of religion or protection of religious identity to protect their power bases and get away with doing nothing for either religion nor for the religious community. The provision in the Indian Constitution for Muslims to have their own civil/personal law has reinforced the power of some to act as gatekeepers for the rest.

The extremist part of the Hindutva focus which is on `Hindu` identity and not issues of welfare to `Hindus` is another example. However, there is no special recognition granted to Hindu leaders of community in the Indian Constitution, so Hindutva-vadis have to peddle their politics in competition with others, at peril of rejection.

Your points seem to be that education and constitutional checks and balances will reign in religious chauvinism in Pakistan.

My point is that it was the educated who brought in Islamic provisions as sops to other educated who chose to indulge in religious chauvinism as the language of politics.

For eg:
http://www.stanford.edu/group/pakistan/pakistan/constitution/part1.html

2. Islam shall be the State religion of Pakistan [2A]and the Injunctions of Islam as laid down in the Holy Quran and Sunnah shall be the supreme law and source of guidance for legislation to be administered through laws enacted by the Parliament and Provincial Assemblies, and for policy making by the Government.

[Notes : 2A The words ``and the Injunctions of Islam as laid down in the Holy Quran and Sunnah shall be the supreme law and source of guidance for legislation to be administered through laws enacted by the Parliament and Provincial Assemblies, and for policy making by the Government`` were added by the Constitution (Ninth Amendment) Act, 1985.]


The Islamic provisions in the Pakistani Constitution have increasingly brought lip service to Islam as a valid and ``morally superior to all other arguments`` argument into the Pakistani polity.

Having to pay lip service to Islam in all public affairs has only strengthened the position of religious power centres and reinforce the strong position of those who solicit their support including the military and corrupt leaders of more moderate parties, all at the cost of power of the normal citizen.

The real values of Islam are not promoted by these power centres but their lip service puts them even more beyond the reach of corrective action by the normal citizen who is more concerned with roti-kapda and more able to express himself on these subjects than challenge his leaders on religion.

Absence of elections has only reinforced this distance between the depradations of these power centers and corrective action by citizens.

Hence having to pay lip service to Islam in all public affairs has made religious chauvinism a profitable stand in society and politics.

This is also not unique to Pakistan. A look at other Islamic countries will underline this.

Bringing religion into public affairs is not a `directive` or basic principle of the Indian Constitution.

Reply Tahmed321

Minister saheb, many thanks. I take this to mean that the general intention of the Koranic injunction on maher is to economically protect divorced women, and therefore it would support the payment of alimony in this day and age. [All credit for information given to MoI, all mistakes in interpretation are mine.]

Sadna - your posts have shown a really admirable commitment to democratic franchise. Perhaps you will consent to be (mujhe aisi himmath kahan se aa rahi hai?) the EC? :-)

sadna #472

``I didnot understand this statement `` dont see the close link between constitutional checks and balances and religious chauvinism````

What I mean is: Religious chauvinism has to do with attitudes of people. Constitutional checks have to do with political control. The latter do not impact on the former.

``May I wonder why Pakistan has had so many dictators?``

My theory is that it is a legacy of the cold war. Pakistan was clearly in the western camp when it joined CENTO, SEATO pacts. The publicly known policy of the US was to support ``strongmen`` as long as they were on the right side. Once the military found how easy it is to take over (under Ayub), it became a bad habit, repeated by Zia and now PM. Trouble with PM is that the cold war is over and he is not finding support in the west. No wonder he is not as confident as Ayub or Zia were.

``did each dictator take it on himself/herself to introduce Islamic provisions into the Constitution?``

Only Zia did. Partly because he believed in it, but mainly as a way to cling to power.

You may disagree that religious chauvinists in India are less vicious than Pakistan - I think you mean less dangerous (in your view) since they are not armed so heavily. Anyway, far be it from me to start worrying about which of the two thugs is a bigger thug.

Zafar Al-Talib: Since you have appointed me Minister of Information, I shall do my utmost to live up to the great responsibility that has been placed on my shoulders. ;-)

Here is my understanding: On maher, there is indeed mention of the dower in Surah Al-Nisa, where men are enjoined not to try and get back the dower through unfair means. This statement can clearly apply only in those societies where brides were bought and men tried to get back their ``bride price``. That was true in 7th century Saudi Arabia, but is hardly the case in most parts of the subcontinent (where dowery is given by the bride`s family with maher being agreed but generally not given by the man unless a divorce takes place). So, I dont think there is any religious basis for this and agree 100% with you that it is in fact unIslamic (since Islam is first and foremost about justice and consideration for the weak - the bride in this case).

You will notice something else quite interesting here: while most of the Quran is for universal application (e.g. attributes of God like Justice and Mercy), others can logically be considered applicable to a specific situation only: e.g. there are surah`s on how to behave in front of the Holy Prophet (not to speak louder than him, for example) and logically those passages can be relevant only for during the life of the Holy Prophet. The question of dower as discussed above is another such example of something that can logically be applied only to a particular situation. If one keeps in mind the spirit of Islam (which is repeated over and over again with great clarity in the Quran), one would never take the position these people took in claiming that the 40 rupee or something dowery was OK. The spirit of Islam would perhaps call for something closer to what is true in the US where women are treated far better than in Pakistan (I dont know about India) in divorce courts.

Reply Sadna #473

You wrote:``I am curious to understand whether Muslim women`s organisations are more free to advocate and win `progressive`(according to ones pov :)) changes in Muslim law as a minority religious community in India or as part of a 97% Muslim community in Pakistan and overwhelming majority in Bangladesh.``

Hard to tell. I have NO data to back this up, but my feeling is that Bangladesh might come out ahead - a better combination of the ease which comes from being a majority and a nationalism that is less dependant on religious identity?

Then, of course, you could point the finger at the Lajja incident! (Of course since Lajja was actually written by a Muslim woman, this might also support my point.)

I think that there are other cultural factors at work as well. IN PRACTICE the rights Muslim women enjoy vary widely from place to place in each country - they might be greater in Karachi than in Quetta (I`m just guessing). They are probably greater along the West Coast of India and the South than in our Cow belt. I don`t believe that it`s a random factor that Shah Bano was from Indore, not UP. In Bangladesh the Bengali tradition is likely to be a positive factor.

If you look outside the subcontinent, women`s rights in Muslim majority countries also vary widely. (eg Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Iran, to give three very different situations.) Yup - I think it`s a matter of culture and history, and how they shaped people`s idea of (religous) justice.

sb #466
``Ours is a manda gaja gamanam(slow elephant`s walk``
Thats a nice expression. I wish it would speed up :). Have you heard of Asha for Education :www.ashanet.org? Just reading a description of its projects makes one realise how much needs to be done.

PM #470
Thanks. Its nice to see you, have you been away?

Zafar #

Chowk is a ruinous habit, let me advise you :).

Thanks for elaborating, I agree with what you say re Shah Bano and vote bank politics. I think the protection of identity/seige question you mentioned was a very valid one and is still up in the air due to the complications of these idiot Hindutva-vadis. The upcoming UP elections are going to be a tough ride for communal relations, I am really afraid.

But I fault the Congress and Rajiv Gandhi anyway. Inciting riots has been a known technique of the Congress to protect its minority turf, perversely Muslims suffered most in riots. So Rajiv Gandhi was a prisoner of his own party`s covert policies when he made the excuse of riots.

What you rightly term vote-bank politics has allowed the Congress to get away with only token gestures toward the Muslim communities and not do anything really concrete and focussed on improving the human development indices of the Muslim community, something which is absolutely indispensible to protect their identity.

btw, three cheers for your resp. mother :).
btw, the Muslim maintenance law is likely to be the subject of a Supreme Court ruling soon and three cheers for these activists too:

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20010521&fname=Hasina+Khan+%28F%29&sid=1&pn=1

I am curious to understand whether Muslim women`s organisations are more free to advocate and win `progressive`(according to ones pov :)) changes in Muslim law as a minority religious community in India or as part of a 97% Muslim community in Pakistan and overwhelming majority in Bangladesh.

tahmed321 #469

tahmed321 #469
I didnot understand this statement `` dont see the close link between constitutional checks and balances and religious chauvinism``

May I wonder why Pakistan has had so many dictators? Why did each dictator take it on himself/herself to introduce Islamic provisions into the Constitution?

`` And I think you will agree that religious chauvinists in India are no less vicious than in Pakistan.``

I wouldnot agree at all. For one thing, no religious chauvinist in India, however vicious can declare any Hindu `nonHindu` nor pronounce a `qabil-e-whatever` namely a death sentence, there is no such religious tradition.

Secondly, the means of empowerment of chauvinists:

There is no provision in the Indian Constitution that every law has to be scrutinized for adherence to `Hindusim` or Islam or Christianity, etc. There is no Hindu body equivalent to Council for Islamic ideology recognised by the government which pronouces its opinion on how Hindu a law is or is not and there is no equivalent of Federal Shariat Appellate Court. This has made chauvinism a less profitable tradition.


Moreover, the Constitution is strictly secular so inciting hatred against other religious communities is a punishable offence. This is used and misused, but the most famous example is Bal Thackeray was barred from voting for 6 years for making a hateful speech against Muslims during a political campaign.

There is no law against blashemy against any religion, for example, the absence of such a law puts lynch-style hatred-inciting mobs in their place and shows them for what they really are in the eyes of the law and society:not pious defenders of the faith or national ideology (as can be and has been the case in Pakistan everytime a blasphemy case is filed or prosecuted) but lynch mobs finding profit in violence and cornering the market on religion, plain and simple.

Yes, there are lynch mobs, as vicious as anywhere in the world, but no they cannot claim to protect religion, nor can any BJP politician, because there is not such thing as protecting religion. Hence you will see them talk of `protecting culture`, thats it.

Neither are there religion-based laws for Hindus, amendments to which are attacked as a insult to Hindus. Even in civic affairs, there have been laws introduced AGAINST specific Hindu practices like dowry.

Bottomline, there is a very solid legal leg to stand on and no room for pussyfooting in the name of religion, if one decides to go after chauvinists.

Coming to other means of empowerment of religious chavinists :

The equivalent of loads of money from Arab countries to keep religious leaders in paint and powder has not happened in India on the `Hindu` side. I am sure there are foreign contributions to Hindutva organizations, but they cannot carry out their activities from a temple or with any implicit religious sanction, temples are administered as public property in India.

Moreover, Hindutva organisations are not religious bodies, but political/social ones. So their chauvinism is more a politico-social matter, with very little religious steam. Moreover these organisations have no standing in the eyes of the state different from say Christian or Muslim organisations, infact Christian and Muslim organisations are granted more power over their affairs by the state than Hindu organisations, leading to a number of Hindu organsiations trying to get a legal status of nonHindu, perversely.

Lastly, I donot see the `inter-sect` fraticidal conflict dimension of religious chauvinism among Hindu extremists.

Secondly, another means of empowerment of chauvinists : people donot carry hand weapons or assault weapons in public in India, except in the depths of UP and Bihar, or for government-sponsored protection of people at risk. (I cannot answer for the Mumbai underworld). I myself have seen an assault weapon only once, carried by government security agents protecting a top bureacrat.

Do you know how the most famous vicious chavinist Dara Singh(who reportedly burned the Australian missionary and his sons to death) was caught. An Orissa police sting offered to sell him a gun and went to meet him in the forest. When Dara Singh was then arrested, the weapons he had on him were knife and arrows or something, he owned no guns.

Are not religious-chavinists in Pakistan much better equipped to menace the population?

Indian press has lately reported `arms training` of Bajrang Dalis in parts of UP. In Pakistan many jihadi organisations have been training for many years in Pakistan, and their members cross borders into other countries to fight. I cannot name a single Indian-based organisation with this sort of battle-hardened mercenery corp.

When the guy Masood Azhar was released after the IA hijacking, he addressed a gathering of a few lakhs of supporters to his jihad cause in cities like Karachi. Recruitment and fund collection for armed conflict is openly done in Pakistani cities or not? We donot have openly operating (Hindu or Muslim)equivalents of Binori Town madarassah and Markaz-Ul-Dawa universities with resources invested in arms training, in India.

And about foreign policy providing gainful employment to fundamentalists :
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/afghan2/Afghan0701-02.htm#P350_92934


This is the most perplexing statement of all:
``However, I think you seriously underestimate the quality of people we have in Pakistan.``

I think I have much more faith in the `quality of people in Pakistan` that you do, thats why I keep saying they should be allowed to enter public life in full force and not be nose-led any further by those who think they know better.

I am the one who believes in holding elections and not interrupting the electoral process with these dictatorships and interventions in national interest. IMO, the Pakistani people have suffered enough from decades of military rule or military-sponsored rule.

Sorry for a long post.

Sadna and Tahmed

I freely admit it. I am addicted to Chowk. This is why I log on repeatedly and reread things, and why I am compelled to add ``just one more thing``.

If you will bear with me.

Sadna - this is how the Shah Bano case looked from where I sit.

Shah Bano asked for maintenance. Islam has (at least in theory) addressed maintenance for divorced women with the concept of ``meher``.

Meher is the amount of capital the groom pledges to his bride at their wedding, and which reverts to her on divorce. At the time of the Prophet it was forty peices of gold - enough for a woman to start her own business in the case of divorce. In other words, enough money to live on (or earn a living with) for the rest of her life. Not dragged out payments for the rest of her life.

In India today, the forty pieces of whatever have been taken at face value (rather self servingly) and when a poor woman is divorced, she frequently receives FORTY RUPEES. (That`s right, not even the price of a vegetarian thali.)

Is that fair? No.

Is it Islamic? Arguably not.

Could it be argued that paying maintenance to Shah Bano more accurately fulfils the intention of the Islamic rule? Definitely.

Tahmed - am I right with the facts so far?

Anyway - then why was the whole maintenance thing labelled an assault on Muslim values and culture by, as Sadna says, influential Indian Muslims?

The reasons are not religious. One could even say that they were profoundly unIslamic.

Why didn`t many Indian Muslims speak in favour of maintenance?

My feeling is that there are many vested interests in the Muslim community (as well as others) which benefit from disempowered people - and disempowered women is key to this. These same interests did their best (and they succeded) to stifle a debate on this in the Muslim community - also in part the better to bolster their claim to speak for the community as a whole. (I believe that we`re known as a vote bank.)

How did they stifle debate? The usual methods. A combination of thuggery and threats and an appeal to Muslim ``loyalty``.

I`ve addressed this posting to both of you (1) because I want Sadna to know where I stand on this, and perhaps to get a ``inside view`` of what the struggle was about and (2) Tahmed, you have by default been appointed the Ministry of Information and I hope that you will point out any inaccuracies in my diatribe.

Zafar

PS The Shahi Imam of Delhi`s Jama Masjid is archetypically one of these reactionary Indian Muslim elements - indulges in hystrionics such as threatening to ask for an Arab boycott of India if BM not rebuilt, etc. etc. But how important would he be if these issues were not seen as vital, and Indian Muslims were seen by the media as being more concerned with things like education, employment, law and order (which I think in reality we are)?

re Sadna #various

Thank you once again for the many probing questions posed and penetrating insights offered-- whether or not TAhmed is right about your `underestimating the people of Pakistan` (which, incidentally, I think he misses the mark, and your point, on)

rgds,

PM



Zafar, your moderating voice has been a welcome addition to the chowk. Please stick around.



TAhmed,

Contrary to what certain other stratospheric chowkies might contend, I think you do a valuable job in educating us every now and then on the Quran position on certain matters-- or at least an alternative POV. Good on ya!

sadna #465 I guess we can all pray to God to save us from His followers.

PS I dont see the close link between constitutional checks and balances and religious chauvinism: the two are largely unrelated. Dictatorships can be secular (military like PM or civil like would-be dictator NS) or religious ( military like Zia or civil like would-be dictators, the Jamaats). Trust me, I am Pakistani and therefore an expert on dictatorships :-)

And I think you will agree that religious chauvinists in India are no less vicious than in Pakistan. We all need to fight religious chauvinism in whatever way we can, and rest assured in Pakistan people are not sitting on their hands. When Zia introduced the chopping of hands as punishment (in his never ending evil quest to intimidate people in Pakistan), NOT ONE doctor in Pakistan could be found to carry out this punishment. He ultimately had to give up the idea. People have written books explaining the Islam of the Holy Prophet (the one I explained to you) and these have been widely praised in newspapers and no mullah has dared challenge them (no mullah will dare to challenge the word of the Quran, but it is easy to ignore it as they do). You may wish to think of this when you start worrying about the Pakistani people caving in to chauvinists. I am not saying all is blue skies in Pakistan - indeed we have serious problems to worry about. However, I think you seriously underestimate the quality of people we have in Pakistan.

Reply Tahmed321 #454

Once I find out I`m worng, the only decent thing to do is to admit it. I`m not to proud to learn! Thank you again.

Reply Sadna #456

During the Shah Bano thing my mother was one of a group of Indian Muslim women who went to Rajiv Gandhi and pressed him to support divorced muslim women`s right to maintenance. He came across as a decent, likeable man, but his response basically boiled down to:

``I cannot have more riots.``

IMHO the only reason there is support for an outdated (and often corrupt) understanding of Islamic law among Indian Muslims is indeed that they (we) have felt under siege (for a variety of reasons) since 1947. As you pointed out (I think), this feeling is waning and that support changing.

sadna #351: ``but for certain types of changes 50 years can even be too much time. ``

Agreed.

jntuece99 #353: Thanks for Srinivas` link! I am attached to the rural Andhra too.

sadna #459: ``And I definately differ from the author of this article and any other Pakistanis who make the case again and again that the inequities of Hindu culture are primarily to be held responsible.``

Ok, so who is losing - the Hindu majority India or the Islamic Republic of Pakistan?

I say, we watch as a separate country as Pakistan takes its course! I for one learnt to enjoy the Pakistani piss and vinegar and the amusement at such articles on Chowk, after hanging out with some in real life. Nostalgia of our own writers should dry out soon. (i owe you a reply from Patwardhan`s board sometime ago - later!)

Ours is a manda gaja gamanam (slow elephant`s walk)! [remotely related to your #351 - govt officials are literally spotting the children wokring in people`s fields and homes without going to schools and putting them in the schools. As the kids run away not being used to the academics, they get picked up again - news from a friend`s mother from the Telangana countryside.]

tahmed321 #462
I am not as optimistic as you. If the already-educated choose to sit on their hands while their compatriots pursue ruinous policies, then what is to be expected from educating the rest?

Fundamentalism is only filling a vacuum which ought ot have been filled by ideas and solutions out there in the public discourse. If assemblies, ministers and political campaigns are out in the open discussing price rises, inflation, unemployment, civic amenities and law and order, it would put the fundamentalists out of business.

In India the situation is also different in that we have the Constitution to throw at any extremists.

Friend #460

``Ahmed,

What is there in a name? If you wish I will call you Prof Ahmed or sir. You may still call me a roach. But talking is better (than not talking).

Let us call it a draw``

Thanks, tahmed or ahmed or tahmed321 is fine. I never called you a roach incidentally, although I did refer to the roach on the subject of the brain transplant. I am sorry if that offended you or sadna, and I realize that the use of the term must have sounded more offensive than was intended since people associate the it with a disgusting creature. I was thinking only of it as a small insect with a tiny brain. In any case, I was wrong to belittle Sadna and you the way I did.

You can call it a draw. I will be perfectly happy to let you be the winner if you like, since this kind of a ``race to the bottom`` is not something I care to spend time on. I think you will agree that this is not a race that is worth your while either.

No hard feelings, and best wishes in your real life. :-)

sadna #461 It is true that Indo-Pakistan relations, or India per se, cannot be blamed for the rise of Islamists in Pakistan. Absolutely not. What I was trying to say was this: if there are good relations between the two countries, then the chances of the Islamists coming to power in Pakistan (and the Hindutvas in India - while you do not mention them in your post - they are not that much farther away from power in India, if at all, than Islamists are in Pakistan) are reduced. And religious chauvinism is by no means the major problem in either country, although it is a problem. The real problem is poverty. Fix that and religious fundamentalists in South Asia become as much of a joke as the religious fundeamentalists (the christian variety) in the US.

And tahmed321
Speaking of polite behaviour on discussion boards, the examples of `polite behaviour` set on other boards including the Farzana Versey board hasnot quite escaped my attention.

tahmed321 #459

Peace (or lack thereof) between India and Pakistan is not the reason why though as you say ``Islamists failed over and over again in winning elections and by now have given up that path`` , Bhutto did what he did, why Zia did what he did regarding Islamisation of society, why the Federal Shariat Apellate court even came into existence, or the Council of Islamic Ideology.

Tensions between India and Pakistan is not the reason why Musharraf`s Religious Affair minister reportedly sent him a draft ordinance named Hisbah ordinance. Have you heard of it?

Constitutional checks and balances : you are very right. But `they` realised first and `they` were there first, starting many years ago. Take a look at the `Islamic` provisions in the Pakistani Constitution.

Regarding bringing about changes in these Islamic provisions(if thats what Pakistani moderates want, thats not clear either).

Well, for eg Musharraf didnot have demonstrable public support enough to face down the Islamists(who never won many seats in an eletion) in the matter of amending the procedure for filing cases under the blasphemy law, he had to backtrack for such a minor change. Then how on earth will he(or any other leader) ever have the power to undo the Constitutional changes made by Zia if he has to do it as his personal responsibility instead of a vociferous demand from the `moderate` majority?

Nawaz Sharif who did have enough support in the National Assembly, went ahead with pursuing his total Sharia amendments. Where was Indo-Pak tension a factor in the public apathy toward what he did?

btw, Bin Laden and his popularity among Islamists in Pakistan has very little to do with India and Pakistan, it has more to do with Afghanistan and Pakistan.

According to reports, many thousands of Pakistanis are fighting in Afghanistan alongside the Taliban. These fighters are recruited openly in Pakistani cities and religious schools. Is that of less significance to the clout Islamists have, than Indo-Pak differences?


Coming to inter-ethnic/sectarian conflict, the religious hardline dimensions of this are not related to Indo-Pak tension, either. There is no reason why the Kashmir issue which unites all Pakistanis should cause Pakistani sectarian organisations to gain in membership and influence and then think it profitable to indulge in violence within Pakistan. Here,too, IMO, only the moral force of a peaceloving united majority asserting itself can prevail, just a competent police force or army guns or harsh legal measure/ procedures willnot suffice.

In the face of all these challenges (including possible apathy of majority Pakistanis, which is what is being discussed), to all that is `good` in Pakistan, I differ with you on the relative importance of `being polite` on chowk.

And I definately differ from the author of this article and any other Pakistanis who make the case again and again that the inequities of Hindu culture are primarily to be held responsible.

tahmed321 #458

``friend #457 If you wish to discuss anything further with me, you will first need to address me properly.``

Ahmed,

What is there in a name? If you wish I will call you Prof Ahmed or sir. You may still call me a roach. But talking is better (than not talking).

Let us call it a draw

Sadna #456 ``Neither Bhutto lacked education...``

Bhutto did it not due to his religious beliefs (Bhutto was hardly a religious man), but for political reasons (to satisfy the Jamaat i Islami). The Ahmedis were indeed shamefully treated. The reasons for the lack of strong public outcry against this treatment are I think not simple - they are a mix of public apathy, lack of empathy for a highly successful minority community.

``To keep these educated people doing bad things in check, we need other educated people to participate and speak up. ``

Agreed. Ultimately of course it is constitutional checks and balances that keep ``educated people from doing bad things``. While individuals can can and do speak out, we need institutional checks. In Pakistan we have a problem because state institutions are weakened by parallel ``islamic`` institutions (shariah courts) thanks to Zia. But the war goes on: the postponement of implementation of an interest-free banking system by one year is one such victory, and not the only one. Islamists failed over and over again in winning elections and by now have given up that path (they did not participate in the last national elections). They tried to gain power in the army, but have failed. However, there is no guarantee that they will not force their way to the top. Peace between India and Pakistan, will I think go a long way towards ensuring that neither the Islamists in Pakistan nor the Hindutvas in India ever gain power. And this peace does require building bridges among ordinary people. And on Chowk provides us one such place to build bridges (rather than burn them, as too many people try to do when they engage in idle India-Pakistan mud-fests).

friend #457 If you wish to discuss anything further with me, you will first need to address me properly.

tahmed321 #437

``You, my friend, have post after post addressed to women posters where you berate them in ways you can only berate a woman (for example, by using words like ``ugly`` that are designed to put down a woman in ways you could never put down a man). There is a basic difference here, and you obviously never learnt that in the gutter.``

Dear Ahmek,

You raised the bar of rudeness and insulting behavior. I am a roach and live in gutter. I took training from you and jumped higher. Why do you have any issue there?

``And I have apologized twice on this board for what I wrote about her IQ. ``

If didn`t see any apology except this post. If you are sincere, I can call it a draw.

anNy #439

``friend sweetie: -- id be bitchy but the weathers lovely...wind and rain...dont feel like dissing...im going to go dance in the rain``

That will be good my lump of sugar!! Dance and enjoy

Zafar #452
``I think the Government would fall in case of disenfranchisement because people would recognise that it?s a slippery slope - not just due to the immediately affected party?s objections. Perhaps I overestimate us?``

Zafar you donot. IMO, Indians are fortunate to have a tradition from pre-Independence times of recognising the importance of truly universal franchise.

You will agree though, mechanisms to act as checks and balances to ensure universal franchise are also as important as acceptance of the basic principle.

Free functioning of political organisations is an important mechanism, the CE of Pakistan and government servants cannot be the sole trustees of this principle of universal franchise, organized citizenry has to buy in, participate in implementing and protecting it too.

The exercise of individual opinions and organized opinions, both are as indispensable as eyes and ears, as much as a free press.

tahmed321 #453
Sorry tahmed, I have no personal differences with you, but I donot think that laws in Pakistan(and other Muslim countries) and even bad laws in India are brought into force by those who lack education.

Neither Bhutto lacked education, nor the distinguished members of the Senate who refused to pass resolutions on honor killings lacked education, the riba judgement is backed by scholarly and comprehensive review of Islamic jurisprudence and neither someone like Rafiq Tarar nor members of the Army who have intervened in elections and supported/encouraged religious/ethnic parties at various times, qualify as people without proper education.


Rajiv Gandhi negated the Indian Supreme Court`s Shah Bano judgement with full consent of his party`s parliamentarians(the Shah Bano judgement was a progressive one, making it incumbent on a divorcing Muslim husband to pay maintanence to his ex-wife).

Rajiv Gandhi passed the Muslim maintanance law nullifying a progressive judgement which would have benefitted Muslim women not because he lacked a good education, the Cambridge-fail that he was :), nor did his MPs who passed the law lack adequate education. The law was passed to placate vocal and influential Muslims who were well educated themselves but considered the judgement a threat to their Muslim identity.

To keep these educated people doing bad things in check, we need other educated people to participate and speak up.

Just like to keep the Hindutva reactionary virus from eating into our institutions and society, we need educated people to speak up.

But I am sure you are as fatigued as myself so let us cease and desist.

Zahra: I too noticed I was spending too much time on chowk (on this board for example). I shall take your good advice, and get down to some work now.

PS But I shall be back sure as God made little green apples. :-)

Zafar Al Talib #449: My hat off to you, sir, on being big enough to not get stuck on one position. You were the calming influence that lowered the temperature on this discussion, and from my post below and Sadna`s earlier post, I think you will agree that we have now reached a satisfactory conclusion.

sadna #444 I think we are basically in agreement then. You mention one issue that remains, i.e.: ``one can still see trends in Islamic societies around the world, which donot bode well for their future as societies where true pluralism(or equality for all religious faiths) is a primary upheld value.`` The concern is there. My view is that religious chauvinism (which is really all that it is, and not much different from ethnic chauvinism) stems from a lack of education. With proper education, people think more logically, and the irrationality of religious and ethnic hatreds becomes clear to them.

So, I believe we have resolved our differences. Cheers.

Reply: Sadna #: 450

Sadna

I am not trying to establish equivalence between political systems here – just making the point that wording can make it easy for people to hive off into discussing the theoretical when you (I assume, correct?) are asking about the concrete, and this is especially true when talking about religion, since then individual understanding and opinions of what is right come into it. (And ok, sati/widows was a bad example.)

I do not defend all the points of view you’ve crossed wordprocessors with on Chowk, far from it. It’s just that when the Hindu/Muslim thing gets going I really think sometimes people talk past each other because buzz words may keep them from picking up on what the question actually is. (And in some cases help them avoid it.)

But that is my op. I agree to disagree.

Zafar

PS I think the Government would fall in case of disenfranchisement because people would recognise that it’s a slippery slope – not just due to the immediately affected party’s objections. Perhaps I overestimate us?

www.thefridaytimes.com
News
Municipal polls in NWFP, etc

``...Meanwhile, female voters in Totalai, Dagai, Ghurghashti and Chingal union councils of Buner district were not allowed by religious and political parties to vote. It was the same in the Dir district. TFT had reported the situation in these union councils before the elections but the government refused to take any action to ensure that the women could cast their votes... ``

Zafar #448
Its tough to argue with you because I mostly agree with you :).

But I have to disagree on this
`` Turning it around, imagine someone writing to you and asking why sati and the mistreatment of widows was allowed in Ram Rajya. You’d probably write to them and explain that they weren’t. If they equate Indian polity with Ram Rajya, however, they’d be convinced that is WAS and that you weren’t being truthful. So you’d be talking past each other, rather than communicating. ``

Zafar, sati is outlawed in India. The death for blasphemy, zina/huddood laws and others laws derived from older traditions of Islamic jurisprudence are very much laws in Pakistan. Didnot Rafiq Tarar write a judgement on cutting off of hands, it was mentioned in a Dawn column. There is an outstanding judgement on riba. There are separate electorates for nonMuslims. The Senate couldnot pass a resolution condemning honor killings.

I donot think sati or mistreatment of widows is a good analogy.

What you said about government falling in India is true. Do you know why? Because a political party/parties which expected to get those hundred thousand votes would have protested vociferously.

But political parties are not being allowed to function in Pakistan, the public is now paying a high price for the parties` past misdeeds in the form of decreased vigilance and activism.

Yet you find many on chowk still arguing against functioning of political parties.

As you said you are free to disagree :).
Anyway, thanks for your replies, it is a pleasure interacting! Have a good weekend.

Reply Tahmed321 #432, #440

Tahmed,

Thank you for increasing my knowledge. You are right about this, and I was wrong. (I am looking forward to being right again, however, because I have learned and have now changed my opinion.)

I agree with Friend’s post #442 – we are all responsible for the injustices which take place in our societies, because we allow them to take place. Morally unarguable, but extremely hard to act on. I haven’t been able to.

Zafar

Reply Sadna #430, 435

Sadna

As per earlier post about ijtihad (sorry to be self referential) I think Tahmed321 (reply # 440) has proved his knowledge of the Koran Sharif and understanding of Islam to be better than mine. It seems I was wrong. Please accept my apologies.

I think it is fair for you to ask for explanations of actual practice in Muslim countries, and I do think that you’re getting the runaround (not necessarily deliberate) when people take your questions at face value (about “Islam” as opposed to what happens on the ground in Pakistan).

Turning it around, imagine someone writing to you and asking why sati and the mistreatment of widows was allowed in Ram Rajya. You’d probably write to them and explain that they weren’t. If they equate Indian polity with Ram Rajya, however, they’d be convinced that is WAS and that you weren’t being truthful. So you’d be talking past each other, rather than communicating.

I’m afraid I’m not sure I agree with some of the things you said in your posts.

“But what if ordinary citizens themselves do not want elections?”

There’s no way of telling that about Pakistan right now. The only thing you can say is that ordinary citizens do not want elections enough to confront a military Government about them.

You also wrote:” Inspite of every physical threat, one is still free to think and have opinions. One is free to assemble and organize with others of similar mind.”

Yes, all true, but there is a heavy personal price for these things. We can wish people were willing to pay it, but unless we’ve been in their situation we don’t know what it’s like, and we can’t even be CERTAIN that we’d pay it ourselves. Like you, I feel fortunate that I grew up in India (for all its warts). Can you and I say with any certainty that we’d be the people we are today if we grew up elsewhere? In fact we probably wouldn’t be. Asma Jahangir is a rare human being.

(And think on this – how many Indians are there currently in our democracy who dare to advocate free and fair elections in Kashmir with independance and merger with Pakistan as options on the ballot? Not many, since these are deeply unpopular options. Perhaps that is our current Lakshman Rekha?)

No comments on the Pakistani intellectual class – don’t know enough of them. (But what proportion of ours went against the Govt. during the Emergency?) And I think you know what would happen in India if 100,000 members of a minority were prevented from casting their vote. The Government would fall. As it should. (Jai Hind.)

Zafar

PS Not questioning your right to disagree with anyone. :)

#440 tahmed

Mr. Ahmed, all very well, but what you`re saying is a non sequiter. One has to do with whether islam assigns a hierarchy to religions, placing itself (naturally) at the top and the other has to do with what happens on ``judgement day``. The first one is more relevant to what happens in the here and now and is very real for those who are not lucky enough to be at the top. Your personal beliefs aside, what do you have to say about the hierarchy thing? Is Zafar Al-Taib wrong?

TAhmed:

[This post is addressed to you and you only. I do not have your email address otherwise I would have emailed you directly.]

Why are you wasting you time on this plain rubbish ? This is beyond my comprehension. You do not have to spoon-feed others with your views till they are fully convinced.

Please do not waste your time here. I think you should look into something real worthwhile: what happened to the UNICEF thing that you wanted to look into? I can give you quite a few references and you should seriously get involved in them. That would be a much better use of your precious time than indulging in a petty discussion.

Hope you will make a serious note of this request.

Take Care.

And tahmed, you should be debating this with your coreligionists, the difference between what you say and what many others say is really confusing.

friend #442
I agree with you, you bet we are responsible.

#441
I was speechless with wonder that some donot bother to read the article even to understand what the persons they are berating are saying.

tahmed321 #440
Your personal beliefs are your business, its not my business to question them, and I am not presuming to do so. If there is such a reading of Quran and you subscribe to it, its to your great credit and I mean it.

I can honor you for that, and all others who think like you do in private and public life, not being stranger to them, having lived among Muslims too.

But while honoring you personally, at the same time I can fault you for not noticing(even on chowk)that many of your noncriminal/nonmullah co-religionists hold a different opinion about the equality of Muslims and nonMuslims, academic or in their personal belief or socially or politically.

Perhaps you donot notice that this perception of inequality is brought into social and political practices of Muslim societies, you have many many examples, can everything be ascribed to reactionary post-colonialism(if I get that right).

Or you donot notice it was a democratically elected leader Bhutto who introduced the anti-Ahmediya rules if I am right. The Federal Shariat Court, the gradual Islamization of the constitution, you cannot ascribe these to mullahs, criminals and extremists. You cannot ascribe the rise of say someone like Rafiq Tarar(whom I remember you calling something impolite) to uneducated unlettered bigots `misinterpreting` religion. And things like the riba judgement..

Basically here is where we differ : while having full respect for Islam and Muslims in general, one can still see trends in Islamic societies around the world, which donot bode well for their future as societies where true pluralism(or equality for all religious faiths) is a primary upheld value.

Even in countries like Turkey, the military guards the states secularism, leading to debates whether secularism is more important than democracy.

It doesnot help to have a moderate population saying there can be no wrong/neglect done by Muslims, except by bigots and criminals. And that for the effects on society of these bigots and criminals they(the moderates) eternally not responsible, its someones else`s job to get a broom and clean up.

If this were the attitude among Indians, we would have had by now Manu-smriti as law in India. Its interesting, btw to see Bangladeshis coping with similar trends, but they donot hesitate to come out into the streets to face down Islamists, especially the women, good for them!:)

Sadna #435 ``Am I a bigot for believing him and not tahmed?``

I am not asking you to believe me. I am asking you to believe the Quran - the Quran clearly says (in Surah Baqarah and elsewhere) that if you believe in God, the Judgement Day and do good deeds, then you have nothing to fear whether you are Christian, Jew, Sabian (like Hinduism, a non-Abrahamic religion) or any other religion. And the concept the Judgement Day has to do with deeds (not beliefs) - the Quran says that on the Judgement Day your lips will be sealed, there will be no one to speak on your behalf, and your hands and feet will do the talking (meaning what you did in life). On matters of faith, that is a judgement reserved by God for Himself, and muslims are clearly instructed (e.g. in Surah al-Kafiroon) not to get involved in these matters. Even the Holy Prophet himself is instructed that he is there to convey a message only, and it`s implementation is not his concern. I could go on, but I think this should give anyone with any sense of fairness some idea on what Islam is. And if you dont believe me, read the Holy Quran with an open mind and find out for yourself.

I agree that all this is very different from the religion that is practiced by the mullah, the king, the taliban, or a dictator like Zia. But this is is the Islam as conveyed by the Holy Prophet and as recorded in a book that has not been changed by one letter over fourteen centuries. This is the Islam that you refuse to accept.

MaheshG #434 I think on reading Sadna`s post #435 you will understand that it is not merely something I have ``got into my head`` that ``the only Islam that you (Sadna) believe exists is the one that is prevalent among Pakistani mullahs.``

I rest my case. I can only conclude that a person is hopelessly bigotted when coming up with such flat condemnations of other people`s religion.

Friend: Actually, maybe I have not explained enough to you - when I belittled Sadna`s IQ, it had nothing to do with her being a woman. I have criticized her before a number of times on chowk, but I ask you or Sadna or anyone else to find one post from me where I have written something which has to do with her being a woman. And I have apologized twice on this board for what I wrote about her IQ.

You, my friend, have post after post addressed to women posters where you berate them in ways you can only berate a woman (for example, by using words like ``ugly`` that are designed to put down a woman in ways you could never put down a man). There is a basic difference here, and you obviously never learnt that in the gutter.

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tahmed321 #432

``Do I start holding all Indians responsible for the burning to death of the two Australian boys a couple of years ago?``

Yes Sir,

I am responsible for that crime. All Indians are responsible for that crime. It will be a crime for any society that lets it happen.

Why I am responsible? Because someone felt that he can get go away after committing all that. What should I do to reduce my guilt? Perhaps, to break my links with groups that supported that crime and vocally oppose them whenever they support such crimes.

What you do in your country in similar situation is your business. If you prefer, close your eyes and ears.

But no, you can`t start a campaign of ``kill the messanger``.

tahmed321 #433

``Yaar, guru you can have my turn. I think I have explained

enough to you.``

I guess you should certainly give your turn to someone else. Filling BAhmed`s shoes is a big task and you didn`t prove your self equal to that.

sadna #431

``friend, I was lost in wonder myself. ``

About what?

tahmed sahab:

:) i dont think ure mean at all..crazy funny most of the times :0)

friend sweetie:

id be bitchy but the weathers lovely...wind and rain...dont feel like dissing...im going to go dance in the rain

byebye

anNy

Zafar Al-Talib:

It took me a few minutes to understand your one liner. I agree as well as disagree. Why? Some other time.

Take Care.

MaheshG #434

There is nothing to clarify. Let me quote Zafar Al-Talib

#400
`` As to the Muslims are more equal than non-Muslims thing, please see my response #33. I think it is clear, as far as it goes. This is, of course, open to Ijtihad, however. Kaun karne thaiyar hai?``

#33
`` If we see heirarchy as a process of assigning relative values to individuals, Islam codifies heirarchies as well. For example ``Muslims are better than People of the Book who are in turn better than Kaafirs``. Or (I know fundies will argue with this but anyway) ``Men carry greater legal weight than Women`` (as shown in the relative importance of male and female witnesses).

Interestingly, [while ]Islam is very specific about who is and is not a muslim, and then ranks non-Muslims in order of closeness to God`s word (people of the book, the rest), etc ``

Doesnot this make it clear that Islam codifies a heirarchy with Muslims ABOVE nonMuslims? Namely according to Islamic principles, Muslims and nonMuslims are not equal. Am I a bigot for believing him and not tahmed?

I will ask you too, why is it bigotted and anti-Muslim to ask in which Muslim society are Muslims considered equal to nonMuslims?

Zafar, I`m sorry to drag your fair name into this meaningless tussle. Why people cannot read the posts(and articles) before interacting is beyond me.

friend #425 ``Yaar, guru ho tum!``

Yaar, guru you can have my turn. I think I have explained enough to you.

Zafar Al-Talib #424 ``I find this disagreement between you (sadna) and tahmed321 quite confusing``

Please see my post #421 where I write ``Hope this makes you understand why I resent Sadna`s refusal to accept any version of Islam other than the worst kind.`` The other issue I have is on her concept of ``collective guilt`` as she explained to me in an earlier board and which makes no sense to me. Do I start holding all Indians responsible for the burning to death of the two Australian boys a couple of years ago? Or for the attacks on muslims in Mumbai under Thakeray? Surely there is as much injustice in India as there is in Pakistan. Just the fact that one is a democracy and the other does not change the fact that there are criminals in every society. Does one tar the entire society with the same brush as one applies to the criminals.

PM: I think Zafar Al-Talib has provided a better response to your post than I could have, and I agree with it.

Sadna, can you clarify to Tahmed that you don`t think the only Islam is the worst kind. Somehow, he`s got into his head that the only Islam that you believe exists is the one that is prevalent among Pakistani mullahs.

friend
I was lost in wonder myself.

Zafar Al-Talib #429 #419

You say it is hard to fight fundamentalists and their modus operandi of violence hence ordinary citizens cannot be heard unless there are regular elections. I agree fully.

But what if ordinary citizens themselves donot want elections? What if the intellectual and educated themselves donot want elections? How are fundamentalists to be dealt with then? Thats the sort of scenario where young people who may have never seen an election in their lifetimes, propagate theories about Hindus and Indians as the reason for all evils.

And hence I am not confused by disagreements between myself and many other chowkwallahs, I think I have very fundamental differences with them, which has nothing to do with mutually impolite behaviour.


I wrote last week to a Dawn columnist that I feel fortunate that I didnot grow up learning values from intellectuals like himself and that I was proud of the equality that we are striving for in every public sphere in India, to erase inequities of class, caste and religion.

That pretty much sums up my contempt for most(though not all) Pakistani `intellectuals`.

Inspite of every physical threat, one is still free to think and have opinions. One is free to assemble and organize with others of similar mind. One is free to see what is happening in the rest of the world and draw parallels to understand what is happening at home. One`s soul is free, one`s belief in God is free, one doesnot owe the neighbourhood mullah anything, however many goons or guns he has.

I was reading an article by an Algerian woman who mentioned how in Algeria over the years 1000s of intellectuals have been murdered by Islamists and a secular polity with a well defined `Algerian` identity which existed in the 50s-60s has dissolved and its now how Islamic or unIslamic one is, how Islamic or unIslamic is society, with the Algerian minorities being considered inferior on basis of Islam. It seems to be a similar scenario in Egypt?

Have scores of intellectuals been murdered in Pakistan? I donot know the answer to that question.

But the day I see any group of this reported majority of `moderates` (who seem to be much wealthier than the average salary-earning middle class Indian)get organized and leave their drawing rooms and take a public stand on ANYTHING for the whole world and fundamentalists to see and not leave it to solitary fighters like Asma Jahangir, is the day I will begin to have respect for them.

Till then I will consider articles like this one to be part of the `reactionary` tendency, whose secular tendency extends to only anti-Hinduism or ant-Indianism, where the external threat is made an excuse for internal apathy.

As an Indian, I donot plan to be fall guy in a 1000 years of blame which I think is all that is in store for India and Indians from Pakistan:).

On that note, I can bet many people of the moderate mentality would not have read the article in the Friday Times about the Hisbah ordinance either, much less pondered what they can, if anything do about it, (if they oppose it).

I wonder what would happen in India if such a measure was contemplated or 100 thousand women were prevented from voting by a religious party.

Reply PM #417

PM, I don`t think that it`s entirely fair to blame ordinary people in Pakistan for not changing their laws when they don`t feel they are just. In India we DO largely get the Governments (and so the laws) that we deserve because all of India`s Government`s have been voted in (and will eventually be voted out). In Pakistan the ``will of the people`` is - at least at this point - not clear at all (in the quantified sense of so many votes equal a member of parliament, at least). They didn`t vote for Zia, he took power with a military coup. Similarly nobody voted for Mushy (credit: Shankar, v clever).

All laws are made in response to political pressure. Without consistent elections the only political pressure that can be brought to bear is the threat of violence. That is to say your average citizen who is not likely to pick up a gun (probably doesn`t have a gun) has no direct influence. The army and other organisations which can threaten violence do.

[I`m not saying that this doesn`t happen in India - see Shiv Sena behaviour in Maharashtra, for example - only that fair elections ensure that ordinary people are eventually heard, and that their voice is usually accorded the moral weight it deserves. The aberration in Kashmir is not just a tragedy for Kashmiris, it equally saps a democracy - which is largely functional - ACROSS India.]

Also - it is not always easy or safe to speak against a religious fundamentalist agenda (of any religion) in India, despite the safeguards which exist. Can you imagine the consequences of doing so in Pakistan? You don`t have to approve, or even excuse, the outcome, but perhaps you might have a little sympathy for people in that situation?

anNy #420 ``but please do yourself some justice ...and be a lil more nicer to the others``

Good advice. I think I`ll take it too :-).

(I seem to be getting into too many dumb arguments on chowk as well).

To all the people I have been mean at one time or another on chowk, these being (I have a good memory): ylh, urstruly, sadna, hamidm, ali1, jay (well, maybe not jay, OK even jay), PM: like the Roman Catholic Pope, I am so very sorry. so sorry for hurting your feelings. so really, really sorry.

And now in Japanese: solly, solly (oooops, I am being politically incorrect there).

live long and prosper. have a great life.

Thanks anNY.

anNy #420

``friend, my lil cuppycake...u might elicit a chuckle here and there...but please do yourself some justice (or your original handle) and be a lil more nicer to the others...its no fun reading chowk and getting angry at someones budtameezee and insolence...and if you must diss even then, plz do it with some class ... all my love sugah, anNy``

Sweetie,

Didn`t you notice that I came down to your buddy`s class. I can come even down to your class if you want

(but no, I don`t want any disease).

Studebaker #414

``I understand ,you already declared it your last post ,BUT as Friend,let me request you NOT to address someone ,who may or may not be elder than you ,as ``sweetie pie`` or refer to there writing as ``defaecate`` & such quiet obvious inappropriate words.``

Dear Studebaker,

Thanks. I would have agreed with you for anyone else. But didn`t you notice this female herself calling others with very cute sounding names.

Didn`t you find anything objectionable with Roach post of Tahmed and this female`s ``applause``. Did you notice her arrogance while pointing out ``I don`t think you are a lady`` to Sadna.

She should now enjoy a stronger dose of her own medicine.

Thanks again for your advise.

tahmed321 #413

``friend: #409 I think by now you have amply demonstrated the gutter you grew up in.``

My poor peace-maker Ahmek,

Buddy, I just took your advise to Sadna, went to your barber and got your roach blood. Now I am also a roach like you. You don`t enjoy any company.

(BTW, now you find gutter in my posts. You forgot your own roachy reply to Sadna.)

tahmed321 #407

``Actually I have not read the article (nor do I think I will)....``

Bravo! So you start discussing a thread without knowing the context. Yaar, guru ho tum!

Reply Sadna #406

You`re welcome. And your apologies are totally unnecessary - I find you entirely inoffensive and usually great fun to read. I also think that while your debating style is (dare I say) a little combative, you are rarely rude, and you are quite even handed.(as per your posting #422.) Not that you asked, of course...

I will say, however, that I find this disagreement between you and tahmed321 quite confusing, as he is one of the other Chowk wallahs whose postings I find generally thoughtful and insightful and tolerant. Perhaps it`s an issue of style rather than substance?

Also perhaps a reminder that much as we feel we know and understand people from the other side of the border, there are some compulsions and assumptions that we do not understand or instinctively make? As Indians, a military Government is intellectually comprehendable to us, but we have NO IDEA what it feels like and how that would affect our basic outlook on things. I`m sure there are similar things about us that Pakistanis wouldn`t immediately understand. Not that we CAN`T understand, just that it takes more effort to than it usually does.

Re: Zahra 419;

Very wise. Interactions much more informative and lively.

Studebaker #415
Here is a reference I came across a while ago:
www.truthindia.com
Scroll down left column:
Ram. R Punyani
Khaki Prejudice
This article quotes studies done by govt. functionaries in this matter. What is required is public pressure on political leaders in office.

MaheshG: I had been meaning to respond to your two posts addressed to me. On the first one: I believe it is a common Hindu prayer (the one I mentioned). I read the English translation only. I guess I will ask someone who is more familiar with Hindu prayers. On the second one: I assume that Aisha and some other chowk poster would have said something about Muslims being ``better`` than non-Muslims. I have been saying that this is not true on the basis of the Quran - the Quran makes this amply clear. Trouble is people have confused the Quran with all sorts of man-made notions. So: it depends on which Islam one is talking about - the Islam as conveyed by the Holy Prophet as being the message of God, or the Islam that has had tradition, heresay and so forth added on. By all logic, the Quran has to be (per muslim belief) the sole source. As long as one appreciates the difference, I have no problem. But when someone keeps insisting that ``muslims are required`` to do things that are not in the Quran, as is done regularly by otherwise intelligent people, then I do have a problem: Then we are prisoners of the past, of a thousand years of primitive human societies, and that is what we are neither obliged as muslims, nor should as sensible human beings, allow ourselves to become.

Hope this makes you understand why I resent Sadna`s refusal to accept any version of Islam other than the worst kind.

zahra:

((Recently, some regular interactors have started weaing a garb and have been posting nonsense messages right and left as they *lacked * the nerve to do so under their real names. How manly on their behalf!))

i agreee zahra..all these people especially ab nd fc k2 fokat fokat initials pop up whenever theres an all out indopakistan phadda, spreading grime all over the place..these people say all of this without having established themselves as interactors with distinct personalities and thus the obviousness...its not nice :(

friend, my lil cuppycake...u might elicit a chuckle here and there...but please do yourself some justice (or your original handle) and be a lil more nicer to the others...its no fun reading chowk and getting angry at someones budtameezee and insolence...and if you must diss even then, plz do it with some class

all my love sugah,

anNy

A Confession: I have not gone beyond the first few lines of this article.

friend: #409 I think by now you have amply demonstrated the gutter you grew up in.

re. TAhmed:

[Question 1: ``how is it that we (a) allow laws that discriminate (or can be easily abused) agaisnt Minorities.``

Answer: Because those laws (Shariah laws) were introduced by a military dictator (Zia) who did not ask ``us``. duh!! And because neither NS nor BB (nor PM today) were willing to stir up the mullahs on these issues.]

And what were the silent majority doing all the while? What were their elected representattives doing to redress the situation? Difficult? Sure, but was tehre anyone willing to stick his neck out at all?

[You may have noticed that neither Zia, nor NS nor BB are very popular among Pakistanis on chowk, incidentally.]

And what is the reason even chowkwallahs are usually loathe to admit to these injustices, or to raise their voices? (Omar1974 eing one of the exceptions)

[I agree that the shariah laws have no basis in Islam, were created by a dictator for self-serving purposes, and should be done away with.]

Whether they do or don`t have anything to do with Islam is a debate for another day. One wonders why their repeal seems so daunting a task if they indeed have no basis in Islam.

[question 2: `` Why is it that we do not raise a hue and cry about OUR funding of the taliban when they go about killing thousands of their fellow Muslims, and make inroads into our own country?``

Answer: Because people in Pakistan have their own problems to worry about (little things like finding the next meal, finding a job, and so on).]

And do the roughly twenty perrcent of educated Pakistanis also fall into this category? Are all the journalists (barring a few), the policy makers, and teh academia in Pakistan (to say nothing of those abroad) encumbered with the exegencies you mention?

rgds,

PM

hobbyty,

Thank you for your kind and sincere offer to help in the effort to bring about more just laws and their implementation. I will get back to you with names of outreach organizations in a week or so. Am currently travelling.

rgds,

PM

P.S. Apologies if my tone did get heavy handed or offensive.

Reply #: 68

``nameless......Bapuji, I am glad that you ``

Im sorry Nameless, i just saw your comment #68 for mine sarcasm #58

I am happy it turned out to be right according to you.Otherwise i would be very bashfull for saying what i said.

Thanx for letting me know ,that indeed you were not serious about your theory in #53

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Sadhna:

My previous post was addressed to friend.

I neither read your lubmae chaurae saheefae nor do I participate in them. I think you have quite a few on board who can satisfy your *very genuine queries *. So, please keep me out of this nonsense!

You are neither aware of my views nor you have any clue about them. Please stick to your convoluted logic. You are damn good at it!

Beyond that, I have no time to read your lengthy stuff.

Thank You!

Tahmed:

:)

Recently, some regular interactors have started weaing a garb and have been posting nonsense messages right and left as they *lacked * the nerve to do so under their real names. How manly on their behalf!

I think Chowk Staff should take a note of that.

Take Care.

PS: You should not feel bad about anything. It`s not worth it! If I were you, I will seriously look into my earlier suggestion. I am surprised that you are taking so long to get the real picture :(

Zahra #397
I too have a long acquaintance with your views on chowk. I remember at least 2 instances. The first was when a minority religious community(Muslim in India, nonMuslim in Pakistan) was being discussed and you clearly stated your dispproval of arguments for their equal status(if I remember right).

The second instance I remember is your scolding one Mr. Omar Mirza for his stated intention(and call for volunteers)to demonstrate along with minority members of the Pakistani community to protest against separate electorates(in NY on occasion of a UN conference which Musharraf was to attend).

You have a right ot your opinions, but I too have a right to mine. What you may consider an objective and informed article or discussion on Hinduism, I may find ignorant and offensive to my personal faith.

Lastly, I donot respect(or read) many interactors, but I keep my opinion of them to myself instead of proselytizing/converting others to my personal opinion of these posters.

So you see, we have longstanding differences on a number of things(maybe not all) and not just from your side.

Zahra: On your parting post. Good post, written with dignity and staying above the offensive posts that were directed your way. I am sorry if I got you into this mess ...but oh well - another board, another day. :-)

Aum #405 Welcome to chowk. We need all the thoughtful people we can get here. You make good points, so let me try to respond:

``1. Wouldn`t it be more fruitful if you urged the author of the article to ponder over Sadna`s questions and your truthful answers, and wonder what kind of lead he is expecting India to follow?``

Actually I have not read the article (nor do I think I will). I came into the discussion late, and my post #399 was simply to provide answers to questions I was accused of trying to avoid. If the writer has been following the posts, I am sure he/she can draw his own conclusions.

``2. Why not instead ponder over, how to repeal any discriminating laws, implement genuine equality for all, irrespective of any kind of discrimination (religous, gender, various sects) first, & then bother about ``others`` such as India?``

Excellent point. We all need to fight for a just society in whatever way we can. The place to start with is oneself. I dont pretend to be perfect, and certainly agree that it is better to practice than preach. If we take care of the little things (our own behavior on chowk being one such thing), the big things will in time take care of themselves.

Zahra #397

My sweetie-pie,

What a typical ``I am not playing with you now`` post?

``Just a few points:

`` There are many writers from uss-paar that are well regarded by interactors from iss-paar and vice versa. I am a selective reader; I do not want to read everyone. My prerogative!``

My sweetie pie, you exercised your preogative of respondign to Sadna`s post. Now don`t you think you should explain your reaction to that post? Or is it just ``my prerogative to defecate in public wherever I want, whenever I want`` attitude?

`` I do not want to rip it apart and shed some light as I am indifferent.``

If you are indifferent and don`t want to ``rip it apart``, ignore it, why this ``applause`` drama?

`` Religion is a very sacred and personal matter. I am a die-hard believer on one thing; if you are truly in love with your own belief system/have the regard for it, you simply cannot think of disrespecting anyone else`s.``

My dew-drop, don`t insult my respect for your earlier posts on this site by saying that this article ``Brahmin and Mullah`` was not about religion and you were not actively participating and discussing it.

``PS: Last Post on the topic at hand. ``

it is your decision ``not to play``. I will still keep bugging you. I believe Sadna will still keep asking her questions

tahmed321 #399

[[``Question 1: ``how is it that we (a) allow laws that discriminate (or can be easily abused) agaisnt Minorities.``

Answer: Because those laws (Shariah laws) were introduced by a military dictator (Zia) who did not ask ``us``. ...``

question 2: `` Why is it that we do not raise a hue and cry about OUR funding of the taliban when they go about killing thousands of their fellow Muslims, and make inroads into our own country?``

Answer: Because people in Pakistan have their own problems to worry about.... ]]

Dear Ahmek,

Were you really serious when give these replies? Do you belive in your own replies?

You blame everything on Zia. Anything bad that happens in Pakistan is none of your business. Than why do you speak for Pakistan?

I really believe that you (and should say ``YOU GUYS``) are not serious when you write such answers.

Each of many posters :
Thanks, I am honored by your weighing in both personally and on the subject at hand.

Zafar Al-Talib #400
Thanks for your explanation. I did remember your #33. I do apologize if you found any of my statements offensive.

I also remember your term `reactionary` in another post #122 for some trends in radical Islam(if I understood you right). I believe Hindutva is another such ideology, not a drive for reform but essentially reactionary in its intent and hence sometimes quite hollow in its intellectual/theological basis.

I mean, Hindutva-wadis neither make it their main object to fight for social reform like say widow-remarriage or equitable caste relations, they seem to just want to assert that to be Hindu is to be right. It finally reduces to blatant power play at the higher levels, and intimidation on basis of religious affiliation at the street level.

Heres what bothers me, what if less reactionary Hindus yield ground (political/social/religious) to radical Hindutva-wadis` out of ignorance about Hinduism (reading Hindu scripture is not the usual thing among Hindus) or they refuse to take a stand against Hindutva because they donot want to speak any ill of Hindus and Hinduism on any account, then isn`t it a self-goal?

On top of that if Hindus `blame` Islamic tradition wholesale for every evil in Hindu society(quite like Hindutva-wadis do), isn`t that a second self-goal? I do see this trend in some NRI(and other) Hindus and its very disturbing.

The issue is not fully settled in this matter too, btw, but I do believe `moderate` Hindus are in a strong position to see where reactionary Hindutva-wadis are coming from, simply because introspection on the `flaws` in society and religious traditions(and texts) has many precedents. I consider a willingness to introspect and reform to be a self-perpetuating strength of a tradition and not a weakness.

I do hope Islamic society also grows in strength through similar means and not take a self-defeating detour through a prolonged reactionary phase.

Thanks for the references!

Tahmed #399

I am a new comer to chowk. Please allow me to ask a few questions as a logical continuance of your genuine replies to Sadna`s questions.

1. Wouldn`t it be more fruitful if you urged the author of the article to ponder over Sadna`s questions and your truthful answers, and wonder what kind of lead he is expecting India to follow?

2. Why not instead ponder over, how to repeal any discriminating laws, implement genuine equality for all, irrespective of any kind of discrimination (religous, gender, various sects) first, & then bother about ``others`` such as India?

In short, ``Practice before you Preach``.

Aum.

Tahmed, you are being very unfair with Sadhna. Just because she raises pertinent questions that you are not comfortable answering doesn`t warrant you calling her a cockroach.

As she said why do you suppose she is directing her questions to you? She is directing them to the likes of YLH, Klutz and the author of this article. The fact that you haven`t made any sweeping statements against Hinduism doesn`t mean Sadhna has to keep quiet against YLH, Klutz and other bigots on this board.

The questions she raises are very pertinent to this board. In fact let me add a few.

If Pakistan is such a secular society then why are non-muslims not allowed to run for the leadership of the country? Why are non-muslim witnesses treated as being a half of mumslim witnesses? Why are women treated as being a half of men? These are not just prevalent societal practices but, they are ingrained into Pakistani constitution. What kind of a secular society is the author proposing?

Did you raise such questions to the author? I don`t see even one Pakistani ask these very relevant questions. A lot of Pakistanis are allowed to get away with blaming all the ills in Pakistan on Hindus. Is Sadhna not allowed to question such characters?

Reply: YLH #366

YLH, sorry for the delay in responding to your post. I have diligently gone through BM`s postings (twice! Hence the delay) but have been unable to find absolutely anything on kebabs or related subjects. I`m missing something here, aren`t I?

Best regards

Zafar

Reply: jntuece99

Yes, you are absolutely right, and biryani also! Do you, by the way, know a short cut way to make birista (the fried onion stuff used in hyderabadi biryani)? I would be most grateful since traditional approach is a bit tiring. :) Zafar

Sadna - a belated thank you for the address of the Hisba article. Truly appalling - makes one wonder about the wisdom of opening borders further - I think it illustrates some of the points I made in my last posting re: ijtihad.

I would also be interested in anybody else`s take on it.

address: www.thefridaytimes.com under opinion. Title has ``bad guy image`` in it.

Sadna

I suspect that a few things stand in the way of you getting a straight answer to the questions you’ve asked about religion.

People tend to react defensively to what is seen as implied criticism, often responding with an “attack” of some sort. This is unfortunate, but human.

This is compounded by the fact that I suspect many of the people on Chowk may not be as well versed in the theology of their religion as you may be in yours. There is no shame in admitting that one doesn’t know the answer to a question, but when the question is perceived as a challenge, human insecurity may again intervene, leading us back to the tendency mentioned above.

To give you some background about possible whys and wherefores of our uncertainty:

[This is to the best of my knowledge. If anybody here knows better, please correct/add/subtract.]

The rules by which Muslims are to live their lives are based on

1 the Koran Sharif,

2 Sunnah (sayings and actions of the Prophet) and

3 Qiyas (analogy).

When an issue comes up, these three are used to define what the Islamic response to the issue is. The process for this is called Ijtihad. For example, when a verse of the Koran Sharif may be understood in more than one way, Ijtihad allows one to isolate the intention of the verse by referring to other verses, Sunnah, and logic. Then the intention of the verse can be applied to the issue or new situation.

The rules for Ijtihad are quite specific. They include (for example) an assessment of when and where a verse was revealed and the context of a particular Sunnah. These would help isolate the meaning/intention of the verse.

And who can carry out Ijtihad? Well, anybody who has adequate knowledge of the Koran Sharif, Sunnah and Qiyas.

So far so logical, right?

Ijtihad led, as you might expect, to a variety of opinions. In a polity which depended on religious belief as the unifying factor (the early Caliphates) this was troubling to those in temporal power. It also led to much disagreement between believers. For these two reasons two trends emerged. First of all, the people whose Ijtihad was respected by the State was increasingly limited, till it narrowed down to the Ulema. And finally, when even this did not stop disagreement among Muslims (and with the Caliph!), the Ulema of the tenth century declared “the gates of Ijtihad to be closed”.

This resulted in a tradition of rote learning, and unquestioning acceptance of what Muslims were told were Islamic practices due to tradition. Accompanied by the decline of the Muslim World. Draw your own conclusions about the relationship between the two.

Of course the world just kept changing, and more recently there was a growing feeling that not only should Muslims be free to do Ijtihad in relation to the modern world, but that it was their duty to do so. (By recently I mean over the last hundred years. This was a part of the ferment of anti-colonialism across the Third World.) This is not, however, universal, and certainly not established as a norm.

So to FINALLY get to the point, when you ask a question about Islam, people may just not know the answer, or may not have the knowledge to present it to you in a coherent or logical way. This, I suspect, is the reason for the “I refuse to discuss it” or “how dare you ask me” sort of responses you tend to get (apart from good old-fashioned evasion, of course). Of course, I may just be wrong about that…(er…to all outraged people at this point I’ll say that I generally don’t have the knowledge, and so I keep quiet. Perhaps not such an attractive option when the question is addressed directly to you?)

Please keep in mind that in addition to that every-green source of meaningful exchange, the Muslims/Hindus-Do-This-Can-You-Tell-Me-Why-Hehehehe thing, Muslims on Chowk are (like it or not) also caught up in our own Religion’s interaction with modernity, with the outcome not yet decided on to broad satisfaction. (I give you Afghanistan on one hand. I give you Turkey on the other. See what I mean?)

If you have an interest in these things, I’d recommend a couple of books by Fatima Mernissi, who is a Moroccan Sociologist. Two particularly good ones are “Islam and Modernity” and “Women and Islam”.

[Again – I’ve put down the truth as I know it. The faults are mine alone. If anybody knows better, please feel free to correct/negate, etc.]

As to the Muslims are more equal than non-Muslims thing, please see my response #33. I think it is clear, as far as it goes. This is, of course, open to Ijtihad, however. Kaun karne thaiyar hai?

Zafar

PS Again, apologies for lengthy post. If you made it so far please reward yourself with chocolate, icecream, etc.

Hobbyty: You have explained the problem with Sadna`s posts more eloquently and accurately than I could have. Thank you. I went through PMs note as well, who kindly provided Sadna`s questions which I have cut and paste below. (Friend: On my previous post requesting the questions from Sadna, please do not bother since I have them.)

Question 1: ``how is it that we (a) allow laws that discriminate (or can be easily abused) agaisnt Minorities.``

Answer: Because those laws (Shariah laws) were introduced by a military dictator (Zia) who did not ask ``us``. duh!! And because neither NS nor BB (nor PM today) were willing to stir up the mullahs on these issues. You may have noticed that neither Zia, nor NS nor BB are very popular among Pakistanis on chowk, incidentally. I agree that the shariah laws have no basis in Islam, were created by a dictator for self-serving purposes, and should be done away with.

question 2: `` Why is it that we do not raise a hue and cry about OUR funding of the taliban when they go about killing thousands of their fellow Muslims, and make inroads into our own country?``

Answer: Because people in Pakistan have their own problems to worry about (little things like finding the next meal, finding a job, and so on). They will take care of the ``fellow Muslims`` in other countries once they have sorted out their own problems.

duh!!

Reply Klutz #369

Klutzji, salaam

Palestinians are being persecuted because they are Palestinian and dispute Israel`s claim to sole rights over land in Palestine. Some Palestinians are Muslim, some Palestinians are Christian, some are communist and hence of no religion. I don`t think that their religion is the reason they are being persecuted there.

And not that you asked but just because I think so:

Kurds are being persecuted because their insistence on their ethnic identity (as per use of language, etc.) threatens the ``nation state`` ideology of Turkey and the ``Arabist`` ideology of Iraq - especially when some Kurds wish to apply the ``nation state`` ideology to themselves, ie they`re a nation, so where`s the state?

Religion does not come into either of these cases of injustice and, dare I say, evil. The Palestinian-Israeli conflict is dressed up in religious clothes for the West`s consumption but really it has very little to do with religious belief. The closest you could get to defining it in those terms would be to say that a minority of one group of people have a religious belief that people of a different ethnicity have no rights in this particular patch of the world, but that the majority of that group does not believe that and that neither of the religions which the other group largely follow say any such thing at all.

Oh....er, and yes, this is a free service.

:)

Friend:

Just a few points:

- There are many writers from uss-paar that are well regarded by interactors from iss-paar and vice versa. I am a selective reader; I do not want to read everyone. My prerogative! There are a few who leave a lasting impression and there are a few who are to be skipped. I have rarely cared to read the chupqalash scenarios, if any, going on between any parties. The recent one caught my attention as we were on the verge of the same scenario couple of months back.

- I have stopped reading Sadhna`s winding posts. I simply do not like the mindset expressed. I do not want to rip it apart and shed some light as I am indifferent. There are many articulate, wise, jahan shanas(worldly knowledgeable) and tactful writers on board from iss-paar, who can do a much better job than me in responding to her very genuine and polite queries!

- If Yasser or anyone else has been expressing strong emotions on certain issues that should be taken with that person than toward the whole community. Insults by any one toward other are simply wastage of bandwidth!

- Religion is a very sacred and personal matter. I am a die-hard believer on one thing; if you are truly in love with your own belief system/have the regard for it, you simply cannot think of disrespecting anyone else`s. You may not be able to connect to the other person`s religious beliefs/may not find the practices worth observing, but you are taken over by a strange sensation that only a *believing heart * can feel. Words cannot do justice here. My argument can be countered by various other points, but I wrote what I believe in. There are wars that took place and Muslims went ahead and killed Muslims. Am I in any position to say that they lacked that fervor or weren`t true believers? Not at all. I had a hard time understanding their stance. Probably, due to my own limitations. It was a joke to read about the war between Iraq and Kuwait, where the two countries went for a silence-period during the fasting month and restarted the war after that. Both were observing the same religion and kept the same fasts. Unbelievable!

Hope my train of thoughts made some sense.

PS: Last Post on the topic at hand.

Studebaker #379
Good post. There have been studies which showed clearly that Muslims suffer more in riots and are picked on more by law-enforcement than Hindus. Have there been reports of judicial bias? I donot know how judges can influence the promotions of government servants, I think the onus is on the executive to pursue justice and it has been failing miserably, including wrt the Srikrishna report and the Sikh riots. The onus is also on the public which has been apathetic too, in demanding action.

klutz #394
I was not asking you, I was TELLING you about Kurds after your preposterous statement that Muslim majorities donot indulge in `ethnic cleansing` of their own. And look up Coptic Christians of Egypt sometime.

btw, its easy for the Taliban to be tolerant when there is just one person left of a different religious community. Let there be say 50,000 or a few hundred thousand who began to demand equal rights, then see how tolerant they would be. In fact the Taliban is a minority group imposing harsh laws on the majority through mere power of the gun and intimidation, not through seeking people`s consent. And you call them tolerant..

Reply #: 369

sadna

Let me make myself clear... i donot hold any biases towards non-muslims. I dont care what caste a person is from or wht color he/she is... neither do i care what nationality he/she holds... it doesnt matter to me whether a person is an indian/ a paki .. etc...

Also all my sympathies are with the minorities in pakistan and in all other muslim states.As i said in my previous post to dost-mittar (i think) ,i feel that minorities should be given equal rights and should be treated equally... so plz donot make any false assumptions... i would be grateful.

Now it is not only the muslim states in which minorites are being treated unfairly.. but minorities rights are being discriminated all over the world.BTW i dont see why i should answer your question about why kurds were persecuted when u cant answer mine... i asked u why muslims were being killed in palestine,and other such places.

Friend #388 ``You are just a worm who is just trying to wriggle out of questions posed by Sadna.``

Thank you for the promotion (or is it a demotion?) to worm. What questions are these that I am trying to wriggle out of?

Zahra #384

``Firstly, I must appreciate your hardwork to find the meaning of my first name. ``

Tum vyarth hi swayam to bhurum mein rakh rahi ho. Uchit to hoga ki tum apne jeevan to saarthak karne kaa prayaas karo. Sadna ne jo prashan kiye, unke uttar paane ka prayas karo. Jeevan yun vyarthalaap karne mein mat khoao. Jo kuch lene yogya hai wo grahan karo. Asha hai ki yeh saab salah swikar kar yatha yogya upyog mein laane ka prayas karogi.

Meri pyari gulab ki kali,

You should not flatter yourself by the meaning of your first or last or any other name. After reading your posts everyone will think that the meaning of your name is ``Jehar``. You have been a regular contributor for last few years. Did you never notice the posts from Yaseer, Sarwari and several others who keep repeating their slogans. Did you ever try to stop them? Hiding behind facade of cute and cheeky comments will not hide the ugliness clearly visible in your persona.

Try to reply to Sadna`s very appropriate questions. If you provide good answers I am very sure that she and every other contributor will accept them.

ali1 #376 Thank you ali1 for the good advice to convert to hinduism, and the accompanying benefits you describe are duly noted. You would be surprised at the little difference it makes whether you are a muslim or a hindu.

SN #375 I have no doubt that the chauvinists are equally distributed among muslims and hindus. Perhaps the right thing to do is in fact to ignore them. There are enough intelligent people on chowk to make it worthwhile to spend time interacting on chowk. I`ll try to keep your advice in mind.

PM 373

PM that was heavy handed. That we put up with bigotted laws is to our shame. But, venting on YLH or Tahmed is no kind of solution.

I will offer to be a part of a solution and so will others here on Chowk: I suggest we write to Mr. Kakakhel in Islamabad and ask for details on certain laws (you will determine which laws) and we will seek an explanation of how they came to be and how they operate in society and how they are used by powerful inteerests against minorities - WHo are the people these laws impact most on.

I agree that very many Pakistanis and myself included have been apathetic and that this will not do. I give youb my word that I will assist in this, in any way possible.

Are you in a position to request a distinguished person from the minority community to write on Chowk, about some of the problems that create a hurdle for them?

Are any Pak Church groups involved in any kind of inter-faith dialogue, or associated with any Mainstream or otherwise, Muslim charitable organizations?

On the issue of the Sadna`s questions - let me first say that I agree that she is one of the brightest and articulate persons on Chowk, and let me also add that she comes across as continuously Hostile. Many could learn much if she invite dialogue and exploration, yet all yet from her is hostility and ``did you beat your wife today`` type questions. That gets old. A typical thing from Sadna will be raising an issue then asking all manner of Pakistanis and Muslims to defend a position that they have not taken. These are childish and dishonest. Perhaps she needs to reevaluate why she is here, is it to learn and teach, to grow as a person, to make connections, or is the reason to be here simply to display hostility?

tahmed321 #372

[[friend #364 ``Dear Ahmek, did you have same irritation when you lil` ylh constantly berates Indians?``

Actually I did, and advised ylh the same (and indeed one or two other folks too). You see, I dont care whether you are Indian or Pakistani or Hindu or Muslim or Zen Buddhist. I dont care whether you insult me personally or offer praise. My self-appointed job on chowk is to point to hate-filled posts when I see them. I am after all an ahmek, you know. ]]

Dear Mr Ahmed,

Did you care to use the same tone and language for lil` yasser? Did you call any of your compatriots a roach? you should have started this SELF-APPOINTED job from your home. Was not this article hate filled? Why is your ``reham`` only reserved for Sadna who till now hasn`t called anyone a bad word?

You even read PM`s reply. Will you direct your ``kripa`` on him too?

No you are not ahmek. You are just a worm who is just trying to wriggle out of questions posed by Sadna.

ylh #378

``Urstruly, ...We are being menaced by a bigoted fanatical monster called Bhartiya Musalman... will you not come to Pakistan`s aid? ``

Oye khotya,

Phir mummy mummy ki rUt laganda hai. Koi sharam hai ki nai.

Dear Friend(Mohtaram):

Firstly, I must appreciate your hardwork to find the meaning of my first name.

Secondly, I hate to admit but I am not in the habit of chanting any mantra after someone. I am not cut that way. My heartiest apologies :(

``Now, you being a very mature and grown up women (Notice I didn`t call you lady ..), do you feel ok? ``

Kithae` Jee?

``I guess reading this crap of an article disturbed your balance.``

O Jee, O Tae Kudoan Daa Upside Down Higg`a Aae`. Tuss`ee Purh`da-ee Na`een O Mae`reeyaa`n Ul`tee`yaa`n Sidh`yaan Galaa`n. Chungae`Observer O, Tuss`ee?

``Repeat above written mantra few more times and you will be again be pak.``

O Jamm`iyaa Na`een Aae` Jae`raa Main`oon Koi Vee Muntra Repeat Kura`yae`. Let`s put it that way :)

Kind Regards.

SN:

Thanks for your compliments.

No one is picking on Sadhna, in particular. I do not think anyone has the time to do so. She is the one, whose curiosity, like a lava is ready to come out and jalao-fy everything. Please uss kee taraf tawajjau daen.

Buhat Buhat Dhanae`waar!

Tahmed[In response to your sweet`oo`& cute`oo post # 377]:

Salutes!

Standing Ovation!

Take Care.

PS: :) :-) :)

sadna #370 ``all my other posts(to which you are taking objection) were directed to other posters. Why assume every post is directed to you? ``

When you are on a public forum like chowk, then it is understood that what you write can be read and responded to by anyone. This is true at all times, including the times you berate other people`s religions, nationalities etc.

For the third time on chowk (and hopefully the last, unless I am stupid enough to read any of your posts again), I wish you a good day and will not respond anymore to your posts (unless I change my mind).

PS: People like you on chowk make me realize how blessed I am with my real-life friends (of all nationalities, including Indians).

friend #364 ``Dear Ahmek, did you have same irritation when you lil` ylh constantly berates Indians?``

Actually I did, and advised ylh the same (and indeed one or two other folks too). You see, I dont care whether you are Indian or Pakistani or Hindu or Muslim or Zen Buddhist. I dont care whether you insult me personally or offer praise. My self-appointed job on chowk is to point to hate-filled posts when I see them. I am after all an ahmek, you know.

#324

#329

DOST _MITTAR

``And still their numbers keep on increasing. Allah is great!....................````

``The author is a graduate of Rutgers University with a degree in Middle East Studies. He was Vice-President of the Pakistani Students Association at Rutgers for 2000-2001 and ...``

Are all Pakistani in Rutgers like this author? Are these typical of students Pakistan is producing these days?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Urstruly,

We are being menaced by a bigoted fanatical monster called Bhartiya Musalman... will you not come to Pakistan`s aid?

Ref: Cecil Chaudhry article and my earlier article!

Dear Tahmed,

If what friend says about you is correct (REF: village barber, khatna, cockroach size etc.), I think you should seriously consider converting to hinduism. You would be well endowed by Hindu standards. Maybe they will start praying to you and yours. I have even recommend a new name for you: T. Cockroachalingum. hehehehe

tahmed #333

Sorry, I am late to get here, but here is my reply.

Just 1 thing. I think the reason u are pissed off so much is because she wrote the foll: ``if Islam says that a nonMuslim can never be the equal of a Muslim``.

Well.. guess what... I have heard this statement more often from the klutz-ses, AAmir`s, Aeisha`s etc. followed by a long-winding quotes and passages. So???

Anyway, I didn`t see her post addressed specifically to u. Chowk is after-all free for all. You can see everyone`s hatred, prejudices etc. If u dont like what she writes, I suggest u use that scroll bar on the right, the next time u see her name.(just as I do with many others). No need to get personal as I didn`t see her abusing u.

Zahra #330

[Thanks for your ``late`` intimate to Sadhna. ]

Sorry, some of us do not have the same luxury of time :-(

[Rather than being a silent spectator, why do not you resolve her query?]

What??? I dont have a problem comprehending what she says...I thought it was u guys...Why are u always asking others to answer the questions for u, why dont u give it a try for once?

[Please accept my heartiest apologies if the *wise crack * had far more wisdom than you were capable of comprehending. ]

Wow...So much modesty. I am humbled.

[On a relatively simpler note, I have no desire to participate in any *such * winding discussions with her. ]

So, what`s stopping u from ignoring her?

[Just to clarify: TAhmed`s comments were the result of his repeated discussions with Sadhna; where he has been sumjhao-fying her many things ten million times. ]

Ok, just curious. How many interactors are there in this board? A hundred, maybe? And does tahmed go around sumjhao-fying everybody? Or is it reserved for only those special few? I think this whole attitude of picking on a single individual reminds of the high-school bully. Of course, if its YLH, its a different ball-game ;-)

As for ur rest mango-lassi, et al..

Sorry, my sense of humour is not the same as urs...or maybe, it had far more wisdom than I was capable of comprehending???

re. ylh #324 to Sadna

``All your questions have been answered very well by a lot of chowkies on this board. I personally dont see the reason why we should continue to explain something to a person who is not only pig headed but a shameless liar!``

Whoaa!! Frankly. Yasser, I`ve seen more of Sadna`s questions go unanswered (sometimes by the use of childish ploys like I-don`t- ever-discuss-my-religion excuses, and often by choosing to deride the person and dismiss the questions as `unnecessarily offensive`.

``Now you are uttering some obscure words about tahmed`s (and mine) mullahism and caste system?``

Here`s where I think you`ve got the lady pegged down all wrong... She isn`t accusing either you otr TAhmed of being closet mullah, or of even overtly supporting mullah extremism. She simply asks the question that if --as we like to stress endlessly-- Paksitan is not in hte control of the mullah, who never win more than 2 seats at the polls etc.. how is it that we (a) allow laws that discriminate (or can be easily abused) agaisnt Minorities. Why is it that we do not raise a hue and cry about OUR funding of the taliban when they go about killing thousands of their fellow Muslims, and make inroads into our own country?

Sloganeering alone will not do it. NOt any more than citing the fact that this is not Jinnah`s Pakistan. There are serious questions we have to ask ourselves about the situation in our country.

Exchanging niceties, and being overly wary about not offending another`s religious beliefs/ insecurities (or being offended likewise) will not do a whit to solve any of these problems.

Of course, having ou behinds parked ten thousand miles from the troubled area -- by being efffectively disconnected with these problems in all but an intellectual sense -- affords us the illusion that by merely stating how usless all this strife is, and how, after all, we are all brotehrs and sisters belonging to one great family, and that if at least we on this site (as somewhat enlightened Pakisntanis and Indians) simply work things out and sing that `love, love love` ditty, all will be well back home!

Of course this sort of escapism is all too easy when ones kith and kin are enjoying the benifits of a liberal, democtratic polity -- far removed from the madness back home --- far enough not to have to trouble oneself too much about it`s causes.

Shame on us, especially those who, drawing our near-six figure salaries and with the luxury of discussing sher-o-shairi from our comfortable living rooms, delude ourselves into thinking that the problems back home have nothing to do with religion and will not `discuss` this `personal` matter (yeah right!), because, heck, religion works damn well for ME!

Zahra #330
Why do so many nonHindus discuss Hinduism? Why does chowk publish articles on Hinduism by nonHindus?
If you are upholding a universal principle, you should have objected much earlier.

If you are implying Muslims should get the special privilege of only their religion and traditions being offlimits while they are free to discuss everyone else`s, you are being unrealistic, you can enforce that unrealism only in Pakistan.

tahmed321 #363
Let me make this clear:

1. Except one post on life imprisonment and your own offensive personal remarks, all my other posts(to which you are taking objection) were directed to other posters. Why assume every post is directed to you?

2. Unlike you, I am not `retaliating`. While discussing caste with great fervor and calling for national debate in India, not one coward Pakistani here has admitted the fundamental underlying distinction in Islam which considers nonMuslims to be unequal to Muslims, you simply deny it. tahmed321, the Quran is available in English, too and I have spent months on chowk, so I know different.

One may make the argument, that inspite of what is written, its the overall philosophy and context of egalitarianism which is important. So I ask tell me one example of Muslim society where nonMuslims are considered full equals of Muslims.

I also asked, all these Pakistanis berating Hindusim for the caste system, which they term as `fundamental` to Hindusim, tell me where in Hindu reliigous scripture is caste discrimination binding on Hindus, like religious distinctions are binding on Muslims(one who doesnot accept finality of the Prophet cannot be considered a Muslim).

All I get is personal insults and lectures on my personality.
So to be a better person on chowk(aka get along with Zahra/tahmed): its ok to put the spotlight on many thousand years of Hinduism and Hindu social history including caste.. The more you do breastbeating the better person you are.

But God forbid, in the context of an article bewailing the effect of caste system and Hindu priesthood in 98% Islamic Pakistan,(and being lectured on the need for Indians to separate religion from the state like Pakistanis do) one asks the same questions about Islam or the social history/current trends of Islamic societies, and Pakistani society and one is declared unfit for the highminded confines of chowk.

There is a world outside chowk, where this sort of arbitrariness doesnot work, thats what I have to remind you.

klutz #358
Jews did something wrong so Afghans made them leave, hahaha. btw, a large number of Sikhs and Hindus migrated too, in 1990s from Afghanistan.

More than one million Kurds is a commonly accepted figure, it didnot come out of the blue. And donot use Palestine as example to excuse Muslim-majority atrocities everywhere in the world, Kurds had nothing to do with Palestine, and moreover they are Muslims too(I`ll bet you didnot know this and hence had no sympathy, which you may feel now).

Zahra #: 330

``Also, I`d NEVER discuss my religion and its intricacies with Non-Muslims. You can NEVER make them understand CERTAIN ASPECTS for various reasons. You can talk about rituals to a certain EXTENT with them, but you cannot go all the way. Period! Now, I am assuming Sadhna is a grown-up woman; and would have some clue herself. ``

My dear rosebud,

Repeat with me loudly.

``I will NEVER discuss OTHER religion and its itrecacies. I can NEVER understand CERTAIN ASPECTS for various reasons. .....``

Now, you being a very mature and grown up women (Notice I didn`t call you lady ..), do you feel ok? I guess reading this crap of an article disturbed your balance.

Repeat above written mantra few more times and you will be again be pak.

yours only

# 352

MUSLIMS KILLED IN ANTI-MUSLIM ``RIOTS``

It is never too late, begining to know thyself. This is just a partial list upto 1992. The figures are government stats; independent sources puts these stats to almost double. Please also check Amnesty International and UN Human Rights Commision`s website. I have already supplied number of Kashmiri Muslims killed everyday several times on Chowk. The number is rougly 10 per day.

Anyway I have not posted these stats just to prove Sadhna wrong; Dear Indians, it is a human issue, if you try to look the other way or try to sugar coat it, you are only being an accomplice. Please work towards changing all that-no one deserves to die.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Pantheon/4789/Communalism/muslims_stat.htm

PS. The number of Christians killed per day will also be provided, if requested, but my friend PM is working on it and will soon post something.

sadna (continuation of my previous post): So, you will need to find some other excuse for writing your offensive posts - you cant blame it on me as I have explained in my previous post. Here are some tips on what you can do:

(a) instead of blaming me (since here your false excuse is easily exposed), blame it on other Pakistanis on chowk: this has been done by some people. However, that too is a bad excuse, since even if you are ``retaliating``, two wrongs dont make a right. or

(b) reflect on why you write your offensive posts...what makes you do it...

(b) might make you a better person as a result of being on chowk.

sadna #333 ``Its OK to misinterpret Hindusim and insult Hindus``

I must have written a couple of hundred posts on chowk by now. Please show me one sentence in one post where I have misinterpreted Hinduism or insulted Hindus. I have always stood for respect for all religions, including Hinduism, and for promoting goodwill between Pakistanis and Indians on chowk. When you make such statements I think I can be forgiven for wondering whether you have a brain.

Reply #: 329

dost-mittar

[[Actually I do know that. I also know that hindus are even more restrictive, even marriage outside one`s caste can trigger excommunication;

But we are mixing religion and state here. In India, any Hindus marrying outside their religion incur a high risk of being disowned by their family and friends. But if anyone`s prepared to defy the traditional taboos and willing to take that risk, as many have done, the State is committed to protect their right to live in peace and dignity.

The more important point I was making was that even where a Hindu has entered into a mixed marriage without conversion, the children are usually raised as non-hindus. Since parents generally put their children`s interests above everything else, I conclude from this that they do not see any signficant advantage for their children to be raised as a hindu in India.]]



I stand corrected :)... actually i know what u meant i was just stating that islam doesnot allow women to marry outside their religion incase u werent aware of it.

[[Yes, I did it as a child during partition but that`s not what we are talking about now.]]

dost-mittar during partition muslims/hindus/sikhs all of them were harrassed, killed, etc. yes we are not talking about that.

there are about 15% muslims in india.... so obviously when the muslim minority is in a huge amount the indian govt will let them celebrate their festivals.. and also india calls itself a secular state.. dont u think then that every religion in india should be given equal rights be it sikhs/hindus/christains or muslims? if hindus can celebrate their festivals then why not muslims or sikhs??

Yes u are very right.. i havent seen any hindus celebrating their festivals in pakistan... but maybe because there are not many hindus here?Im not ssaying that they shouldnt be given equal rights.. in my opinion they should..

yes we dont have any national holidays for hindus or christains or sikhs ... but we have so many christain schools in pakistan.. they give out holidays to their students on st.peters day or other such days... our govt doesnt try to curb their rights... everyone is free to do what he/she wants to do... if hindus want to celebrate diwalis etc then i dont think our govt will have anything against it.(well atleast i wont...and neither will many pakis)

[[P.S. Could you, pretty please, change your monikar? I hate to address anyone as klutz:-).]]

haha well its my username :P its my identity now hehe.. dont feel bad about referring to me as klutz.. after all i chose it myself :) ... but if u still feel like calling me with another name then u can call me `Luki` *my nickname * :)

Reply #: 318

anNy

Thankyou anNy for ur encouraging words ``)

klutz

Reply #: 297

sadna

[[Will you explain why there is only one Jew left in Afghanistan? ]]

Sadna why dont u ask the jews themselves... they decided to leave afghanistan... (btw there isnt only one jew .. it was one jew rabbi!!).. this jew rabbi decided to stay and no one tried to make him leave...no one tried to curb his rights... he was given his rights, he could practice his religion any way he liked. So this clearly shows that talibans werent discriminating minorities rights... if other jews had decided to stay they would have been treated just like the rabbi is being treated.

[[And why a large number of Afghan Jews faced persecution and steadily migrated to Bombay, India (among other places) in the last 300 years?]]

can u plz tell me where u read this crap?u ask why the afghan jews faced persecution.. but are u sure they did?? did u see it by yr own eyes? newspapers tend to exaggerate my dear sadna and if u read it in yr indian newspapers and/or american newspapers then im not surprised at how the muslims are being portrayed.why dont u ask urself if those afghan jews did something wrong.? You dont ask what jews are doing in palestine and why they are doing it.... u dont ask why so many muslims are being killed by the jews.. u dont ask urself that even though jews are treating muslims in a disgusting manner,why then muslims still dont treat jews in that same abhoring manner.u ask me why jews migrated to india, (the jews minority) yet u dont ask me why muslims are being killed,molested in palestine (a muslim majority state)!!!!

Reply #: 298

sadna

i am not saying that muslim states havent done anything wrong to their minorities.But atleast muslims have been treating their minorities way better than muslims minorities are being treated around the world!!! 1 million huh?? statistics my dear sadna are very inaccurate... and statistics provided by newspapers,magazines etc are even more inaccurate... They are misleading.period.

Zafar Al Talib,

Please compare Pak Musalman`s post with Bhartiya Musalman`s post!

-YLH

One must wonder about people who find it necessary to declare

``Long Live Pakistan`` as often as they have to run to the bathroom

during a day. Can you all spell I-N-S-E-C-U-R-I-T-Y? Only those

with doubts about Pakistan`s continued existence will feel the

need to reaffirm it.

No Indian ever finds it necessary to declare ``Long Live India,``

particularly on a randon-a$$ message board chock full of people

from the wrong the side of the border. We KNOW India has lived

long and will live long....we are a genuine civizilation, not the

byproduct of political and religious machinations.

Yes indeed, you are a genuine civilization based on oppressing humanity in the name of caste and creed for centuries!

I personally say Long Live Pakistan, because this cry is inherent ingrained in my soul... it is a religious cry for me, it is how you people say `Raghpati Radhav Raja Ram` ... only fanatical religious slogans never did anything for my soul!... My soul cries out Pakistan Zindabad ... My soul cries out Long Live Pakistan . You speak of insecurity, I have none. I know that Pakistan will exist till eternity, because it is a country founded on a principle and a country founded for a reason, not some ancient Vedic Scripture or a caste system of oppression!

Becharay Rsaxena kee apni Duniya, aur apni choti choti khushian especially when he is unable to contribute positively or productively to the discussion!

LONG LIVE PAKISTAN!

tahmed321 #333

``SN #319 OK. I am sorry if that post offended you. I do find Sadna`s constant berating of Pakistanis to be irritating. ... Had this been the first time she had such I post, I would have written a different kind of a response. But this is a person who has been on chowk for months and constantly plays the same tune without any concern. .... Is this why we are here on chowk? To insult one another, berate one another`s religious feelings? I hope we can aspire for something more intelligent than that....``

My poor Ahmek,

Now I understand why you are scratching your behind. It is IRRITATION!! Dear Ahmek, did you have same irritation when you lil` ylh constantly berates Indians? You also have been on Chowk for months and lost your patience. Why it is not allowed for Sadna to loose her patience when some of your buddies on the chowk play same tune again and again? (If it is because she is not a M.., I will not say a word, I know that asking that question is forbidden).

One can aspire for something more intelligent, only if one tries to rise above the roach`s level. Now you have dragged us all to that level, you better enjoy being in roach pit.

tahmed321 #332

My dear Ahmek,

``friend #320 Any barber will do, I am sure. You may have to wait your turn though, while they find a suitable donor roach that matches your blood type..... ``

I contacted the barber from your village for a proper roach and he suggested your blood as most suitable. But he was afraid that it may be infected with AIDS. He is checking if Zahra darling`s blood is of correct IQ level recommended by you. YLH was of correct IQ level but he was not a roach. He was a worm. Is a worm ok? Waiting for your advise.

Tahmed, sorry I don`t know of any such prayer. I am not religious and I don`t pray. As a result I don`t know any prayers.

Regarding the nation wide debate on the caste system. Somebody has already answered for me. Everybody agrees it`s evil. Eventhough a lot of people might not really mean it.

The intellectual debate has already taken place and as a result we have all these measures in place to check the propagation of the caste system.

Every school text book (civics) spends at least some pages on the evil nature of the caste system.

Sarwari & fellow Indians

``None of these groups wanted to be anyone else, and this was done through conditioning.``

Aeisha, if I make out correctly what you meant then this is very true.

I would like to question my fellow countrymen/ women, who have been interacting over this article for quite sometime and amongst whom, incidentally, none has supported the caste system, would go for a marriage by choice or let their family member happily marry someone from the SC/ ST without any family pressures. Not many, I am sure. And please don`t say that the pressure would be in any inter-caste marriage. Becasue it would be less than in the one I am talking about. And these are not just the feeling of the elder generation but also the youth of India. Evident even in the professional colleges where most of the upper-caste students shy away from the courtship with those from SC/ ST. It is sad but true that despite all the legislative attempts being made and preechings being done, we are still are far behind in overcoming this mind set. This has to start from individual level. This was just an example which I made, you can marry who ever you like.

And Aeisha, this is not confinded to Hinduism only. Even people who have embraced other religion are of the same mindset. As you said its been conditioned that way, if I get you correctly.

As for the book you have suggested, the next time I go to Delhi, I would check it out.

Mona

Studebaker 343,

CHANGING TIMES

The name madras for the state was changed to tamilnadu, that must be at least 25 years ago. Of late even the city of madras is gone, it is chennai.

Studebakers are gone, now it is the turn of the Hyundais, Kias and the lexus.

There are lot of indians and increasingly few muslims, getting as rare as the studebakers.

Studebakers never change, they are made of iron, they rust away.

Zafar Al-Talib

``````

But we DO make excellent kababs!!!! Don`t you think that this small redeeming feature should be mentioned in fairness? ````````````

And also the best biriyani in the world ;-)

LOL@U..

Oops, I forgot to paste the link in my last post.

Here it is,

http://www.hvk.org/articles/1299/6.html

It is a must read...

About the seperate telangana movement, It is too early to say. That there is a problem of underdevelopment and huge inequalities inspite of pocessing vast natural resources is a fact. So there is an undercurrent of passive support going on in Telangana for a separate state. But there had been considerable progress since the last one in 60s and so the support is not too great either.

What is surprising is the latest TRS movement, its leader and its support base. No one trust him too much either bcos of his high profile campaigning (helicopters and all). And Naidu is also on a war-footing to stem this movement. The panchayat polls willl give us a drift of people`s sentiments. Let us wait and watch...

I dont support a seperate movement. A.P has everything going on for it and became a vital power base in centre. This division will put a spanner in the works. I only hope people in Telangana will realise it . But as I said earlier, lets wait and watch...

Cheers,

jntuece99

Do some pathetic losers really believe millions of Muslims and Christians get killed in India every day or even every year? Proof please, apart from your personal hatred of Hindus?

Yes and this number seems unknown too:
More than 1 million Afghans have died in Afghanistan since jehad began, and there is no sign that the war is going to end soon or that the sponsors of Taliban (where do the arms and funds come from?) are worried by this figure. Maybe Muslims can kill fellow-Muslims at any scale without any outcry in the `Islamic world`?

sb #331
I guess I was thinking of the UP/Bihar scene. The so-called upper-caste party like BJP has been trying out alliances with BSP/Samata. Now BJP is trying to reach an agreement with a `backward` Muslim party, with promise of reservations.

And see it this way, suppose Mayawati/Kanshi Ram had rivals within the communities they claim to represent. Then these rivals would need to go looking for supporters outside their communities.

I know, UP is currently where TN was 30-40 years ago in the `disadvantaged` caste dynamics, one can only hope UP will not end up with quite such a roster of reservations.

Well, I agree with you about 50 years not being a long time, but for certain types of changes 50 years can even be too much time.

Someone was describing a village in UP. No bigshot pols from here, so its pretty neglected. The low-interest or interest-free loans offered by the government are availed by members of every caste, thats fine, but with no intention of paying back. The `upper`-caste get away with this scot-free due to their connections, while the `lower`-caste ones languish in jail for the same offence. And rural indebtedness to moneylenders anyway continues, with guess who at the bottom of the pile.

Apparently, what social workers prefer to do is discourage availing of govt loans and getting those who need money to form cooperatives and essentially lend to each other. Now in how many villages would there be social workers?

Thats when you realise what if these villagers couldnot even vote? Whatever little visibility or benefits they are granted, even so much visibility would be denied easily as they would be completely off the radar with those in power not needing to care about this small village in this rural backwater.

Its no surprise that rural voting percentages are generally higher than urban voting percentages.

tamed321 #333

`` Is this why we are here on chowk? To insult one another, berate one another`s religious feelings? I hope we can aspire for something more intelligent than that.``

No, we are here on chowk to read ARTICLES on misinterpretations of the Ramayana and Hinduism, even though people like the author claim to have spent months studying Hinduism in a university course. Its OK to misinterpret Hindusim and insult Hindus by claiming our ignorance is knowledge and their knowledge is ignorance.

We are here to be lectured that `Indians donot debate caste` though it was debated even in the 1800s and in our Constitutent Assembly and in our affirmative actions and everyday in our political scene between parties in office and out of office representing every caste. It was debated on this board with Arun Gupta posting 2 long articles on castes practices in Kerala and numerous other posts.

We are here to be lectured Islam is an egalitarian religion by those who willnot allow Ahmedis to say a simple Muslim greeting without being sent to jail. By those who have often said ON CHOWK that nonMuslims can only go to hell.

We are lectured about secularism on one board while on another, a Pakistani makes an appeal on joint electorates AND NO ONE replies to his point.

Good for you, tahmed, you at least know what we are here for.

ylh #325

`` All your questions have been answered very well by a lot of chowkies on this board. I personally dont see the reason why we should continue to explain something to a person who is not only pig headed but a shameless liar!``


ylh, I donot write shameful whining lies about priesthood in Hindusim being the cause of problems in Pakistan and publish it on chowk as an article with intellectual content, I merely reply to such self-serving cr-p.


I didnot get a single answer to my question. Where was the secualr democratic Paksitani government and the people? Where was the force of egalitarian Islam? Where is the public outrage? Why isn`t there a repolling ordered?

Such a widespread use of physical threats in India to prevent polling would result in widespread outrage and repolling in India.

That more than hundred thousand women in not one but two districts couldnot vote because an Islamist party chose to use force and stand on principle unlike other Pakistanis is not an issue?

ylh, finally what have I got to gain or lose whether women in NWFP got to vote or not?

But after being lectured to ``follow Pakistan`s lead`` in separating religion and governance, and how fake is India and Indian`s secularism and democracy, you and others arenot going to get away scot free by blaming Indians and `Hindu culture` for problems in Pakistan.

SN #319
Whole articles will be published on Ramayana,Brahmins, castes, Indian leaders as the sole evils facing Pakistanis, thats fine, (then its an academic discussion). The `insult to Islam` is essentially Indians not taking all this self-serving cr-p quietly .

#329

Dost-Mittar

[``And compare the graph of Muslim Population in India with those of Pakistani hindus, you will see a steep rise in the former and a slow decline in the latter``].

#: 324

dost-mittar

justadesi#307

`` People talk about Kurds being killed, but conveniently forget to mention the million of muslims and christians killed in India each day from the so-called peace loving Hindus there``

And still their numbers keep on increasing. Allah is great!

First is there any co relation between growing reproducing & being neumerous and happiness safe & security INDEX.For if populosness was anygood then ,India & china being most dense persq Mile of ppl. would be the utopian society.

Another point when you talk about graphical ``STEEP RISE`` for muslim & ``DECLINE`` for hindus are you not aware of one of the major cause of LESS hindu (not decline) is b/c of selective foeticides of FEMALE genders.A conservative estimate m,ay out as much as 80 million such female stopped from growing up in last 15 -20 yrs.Now muslim population in India being 10% would account for 100 million & some .If you have 80 million less hindu than actuasl number stopped by HINDUS themselves ,& you are using such atrocious practice to BLAME THE MUSLIM,Minority ?????????????????

sb #

I actually dont know much about M N Srinivas` works. I did just one course in Sociology during my post graduation and he is extensively covered in it. But I could easily relate to his works bcos 1) I have lived in rural India for considerable part of my life and 2) He wrote mostly about South India.

Anyways he expired last year and please have a look at the following link. Very informative about him and his works..

Cheers,

jntuece99

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Ref Pakmusalman #: 337

You wrote:

``...Indian Muslims are the lowest barbaric race with no manners, no education, no intelligence.``

But we DO make excellent kababs!!!! Don`t you think that this small redeeming feature should be mentioned in fairness?

Re Idolatry

I think this unending discussion on idol worship is the most useless discussion on chowk since the ylh-inspired series on dead historical figures. If you practice idolatry, good on ya. If you dont, good on ya as well. Whats the big deal anyway? Surely noone thinks people ACTUALLY pray to a stone as if it were God now, do they?

Hobbyty

Romila Thapar has a pretty wide list of publications. If I get the time, I will try to single out one of her books most pertinent to our discussion of caste. Will get back to you. Meanwhile if anyone else can suggest a title, pls do so.

ylh #311 I am not sure if being the ``most moderate`` is a major achievement, kind of being the ``world champion mediocrity`` :-) But sounds good, and I know you meant it as a compliment. You indicate some issues you and I disagree on. The issues I have with you are as follows:

a. I think you pay too much importance to men (ataturk, jinnah, gandhi and so forth). Each one of them had some good ideas, and I happen to think that the idea of non-violence is the most profound. Small minds talk of personalities, bigger minds discuss ideas. So please dont brand me a Gandhiite, but I certainly will agree to stand on the side of non-violence. This is the same thing as saying I would not like to be called a Mohammedan, even though I happen to agree with the basic message Mohammed conveyed.

b. Nationlism: I think we need to think beyond nationalism, and start thinking in terms of humanity at large. The biggest service we can do to Pakistan is by promoting peace in the region in whatever way we can. Any by promoting peace in a huge region like South Asia, we are benefitting all humanity. There is no conflict between loving Pakistan and loving India at the same time, between loving muslim culture and loving hindu culture at the same time. Our lives will be that much richer, and we will be less of a problem and more of a solution for the rest of the humanity.

c. Actually, I am not sure of any other issues, but please feel free to raise them.

SN #319 OK. I am sorry if that post offended you. I do find Sadna`s constant berating of Pakistanis to be irritating. Her presumptions regarding the Islamic teachings are also totally - see for example the post that prompted by response where she starts by taking as given certain incorrect things about Islamic teachings. Had this been the first time she had such I post, I would have written a different kind of a response. But this is a person who has been on chowk for months and constantly plays the same tune without any concern. Is this why we are here on chowk? To insult one another, berate one another`s religious feelings? I hope we can aspire for something more intelligent than that.

friend #320 Any barber will do, I am sure. You may have to wait your turn though, while they find a suitable donor roach that matches your blood type.

PS: Please dont respond while you are mad. Cool down, then come up with a clever response that will rip my Paki hide off.

One must wonder about people who find it necessary to declare ``Long Live Pakistan`` as often as they have to run to the bathroom during a day. Can you all spell I-N-S-E-C-U-R-I-T-Y? Only those with doubts about Pakistan`s continued existence will feel the need to reaffirm it.

No Indian ever finds it necessary to declare ``Long Live India,`` particularly on a randon-a$$ message board chock full of people from the wrong the side of the border. We KNOW India has lived long and will live long....we are a genuine civizilation, not the byproduct of political and religious machinations.

Anarayan 322

I get your point - PM was was also suggesting the same that is that what you called ``qualities`` and he called ``attributes`` - I got it. Thks

Eklavya #170: `Please don`t sit back and speak up only when you feel offended.`

But Eklavya, old chap, nothing you are saying prompts me to do anything but...

btw, I meant Dadeechi, from whose bones the weapons for the Devas were made, not Salya. His spine became Vajra. Talking of Vajra, the Vajrayana sect of Buddhism derives its name from the concept that the knowledge/enlightenment when it happens, happens suddenly - like a thunderbolt. It might be a factor of one`s experiences, knowledge gathered uptil that point, and more - I dont know.

jntuece #162: Ah, but what fraction the brahmin actors and directors and producers in an industry that produces the greatest number of films a year? You bet, it is reverse casteism! On a more serious note, wonder how strong the movement for a separate Telangana really is...

``Actually the confusion arises bcos, Kammas have a last name of Chaudary (not to be confused with the North Indian one) or no last name at all in North and Central Kosta region of A P. And the `Kapus` in North and Central A.P. have a surname of Naidu. But in South A.P (esp. in regions of Nellur and Chittur dist) Kammas have a surname of Naidu. Thats how the C.M. of A.P, C B Naidu, who is from Chittor dist is a kamma.``

:-) Hey, I knew all this at one time! Yes ChandrababuNaidu is a kamma. I stand corrected. But isnt it a norm to call the kapus from northern and central AP Naidus? I do remember the mayhem after Ranga`s murder in `88. Kapus asked for a slot among the BCs a few years ago - just another indicator of the social dynamics of the `hindu` society.

PS: Who is Prof M N Srinivas? I am out of touch with the news and books, I should quit now. Gail Omvedt? Thanks.

jntuece #161: `IT - The communities which gained the most are the forward castes - Brahmin revenge`

But thats why forward castes are forward castes - they are better equipped to take on the latest and best - it is but natural. On the flip side, according to a relative, socially also these castes are more progressive, in the sense that there are more inter-caste marriages among the brahmins, dowry problem is almost non-existent, and they adapt to the socio-economic changes more agressively than others.

No denying the power of knowledge!

There is only one arab wanna be amongst us, and that is bhartiya Musalman...

I pity Indian Muslims ... they can either be completely Arab... or completely Hindu... no moderation.. and then they call Pakistanis arab wannabes, because unlike some of them we are not racist!

Deoband is India, and their greatest Abu Al Kalaam Azaad was an Arab... that explains their confusion, bigotry and fanaticism!

I completely endorse the call to reform... but I hope fanatics like bhartiya are marginalized.

Long Live Pakistan

PM #146: Caste today is more a social feature than a religious one in the Indian society. Low caste families object to their children marrying the high caste people too. Its the case of a `different` caste among the educated lower castes.

Marriages between the Scheduled Caste (Hindus?) and the Chirstian converts from the same caste are not uncommon in AP.

PS: Of course it will be a while before there are converts from the warrior race in the subcontinent... :-)

sadna #158: creamy layer - yes the constitution does not permit distinction between the economically well-off as against the poor amongst the backward castes. The resverations ARE instituted for the socially discriminated castes (an aside - the ones that exist are not as described per the `hindu` varnasrama) and not the economically disadvantaged ones.

It takes a few generations for a (genuinely) socially backward group to rise to a higher rung in the society. One generation making it to the mark is not enough. It is a pity, and therein lies the challenge, that as a poor country with limited resources and distribution we are going through this process of offering special privileges to some groups. I think this among other tasks taken up by India since `47 points to the almost obscene idealism and optimism we nourished and continue to...

``When the better-off members of these communities go looking for political support among those who have not yet benefitted from affirmative action(or those suffering its ill effects such as eceonomically weak `forward` castes), these issues will have to be addressed.``

Perhaps adhering to the dictum that `lower classes wish to be led only by upper classes and not by their own`, AP does not have any pol. parties led by bc/sc/st sections :-). And the better off families among the lower castes are not only few and far in between but are usually disinterseted in any political process. From what I know most of these families are no diff from others in the society greed-wise. I know a miniscule number of people from educated families who did not exercise their right for resrv.

I think the AP state institued a small %age for the economically backward classes. Personally I am against the idea. [During the agitation against the Mandal recommendations I asked one of the student organizers why not ask for the govt to provide for empl for everybody - after all the `right to work` was a prominent election pledge by VP Singh - needless to say, the bloke stared at me for a few moments, before murmuring something and turning away :-). The question of providing jobs for everyone (thus catering to the EBCs) leads to a whole diff political system... Not that I do not know what you meant when you broached the topic.:-)]

Reservations as a state process may not be a bad idea - just that the states like Tamil Nadu may go berserk - last time I looked at the figures they had more than 65% seats reserved at the state level. This was 10 years ago. I do not favor endless fragmentation either and hope to see the day when they start removing entire castes (not just the creamy layer among them) from the bc/sc/st lists.

Isnt 50 years too short a span for such a massive socio-economic change? Just an opinion. (and my kids, if and when they are around, will not use the reservation system.)

SN:

Thanks for your ``late`` intimate to Sadhna. You should have done that earlier :(
[Takae`Unhaen Likhnae Kaa Kusht Naa Uthaana PuRtaa.]

Rather than being a silent spectator, why do not you resolve her query? I am sure you`d be able to enlighten her more than anyone around can do so. Wanna take a try ?

Please accept my heartiest apologies if the *wise crack * had far more wisdom than you were capable of comprehending. If you are from India, then you should have been able to understand that. Oh, I am sorry you couldn`t have done so, after all it was beautifully said by Shair`ae`Mushriq Sir Allama Iqbal from PUNJ-AB, Pakistan. Ouch, I forgot that.

On a relatively simpler note, I have no desire to participate in any *such * winding discussions with her. Having made some past observations, I`ve gotten to know her mindset pretty well. To inquire for the sake of information/knowledge is something different than to inquire for the sake of indulging in winding discussions [Haram...Haram - Waste of Time]. I`d rather not get into such duldul.

Also, I`d NEVER discuss my religion and its intricacies with Non-Muslims. You can NEVER make them understand CERTAIN ASPECTS for various reasons. You can talk about rituals to a certain EXTENT with them, but you cannot go all the way. Period! Now, I am assuming Sadhna is a grown-up woman; and would have some clue herself.

Take Care.

PS: I did not use the term ``lady`` as I am sick and tired of this gentleman and lady nonsense on chowk. Let`s be simple guys and gals or men and women. A polite request!




A General Note:

Just to clarify: TAhmed`s comments were the result of his repeated discussions with Sadhna; where he has been sumjhao-fying her many things ten million times. She still comes back after every 5-6 articles and brings forth her wise interpretations that need a blessing - ghumma phiraa kae. I am pretty sure that he never implied or intended any personal insult to her. It was her IQ that was in question after those repeated *shikshaas * by TAhmed.

Also, my standing ovation to him was on the gist of his post than anything else. I will do that again.[Standing Ovation!!!]

Just wanted to clear that to people from Indo-Pak region; where in summers, humans start losing their composure, due to excessive gurmee. And also have a very grim sense of humor. In fact, na hoane kae brabur :(

To All the Participants on this board:

Rather than lurnaa murnaa [meaning friendly interacts], I suggest please try:

- chilled mango milk-shake

or

- thandi numkeen lassi. The lassi should be thick one. Do not go for any kanjoosi in using yogurt.

Kind Regards to all.

Eklavya #302 Hobbyty: I think the caste system, and indeed stereotyping of any kind (based on ethnicity, religion, nationality and so on), are all manifestations of the same trait in human nature - a ``short-cut`` classification of an individual. It probably goes back millions of years when people formed hunter-gatherer tribes that fought tooth and nail for limited resources. It was clearly a win-lose situation in such primitive societies and such stereotyping helped. In an increasingly affluent world (and lets face it, that is where the world is headed at lightning speed by historical standards - even a 1% annual per capita growth rate is several times higher than was the world`s average for the past 5000 years for example) and in human societies that are beyond the hunter-gatherer stage, this makes no sense any more. And that is why I agree that the intellectual debate is basically over, not just in India but world-wide.

What is left is the instinct built up over millions of years. It is this instinct that is now as atavistic as the tail bone. This instinct (or rather it`s manifestations like the caste system) can be curbed by law, but ultimately (as Eklayva says) has to be taken out of a person as a child through teaching at the kindergarten level. It in fact needs to be REPLACED by a new instinct - respect and appreciation for all groups of people. Armed with this instinct, an individual will go much further in the modern world than with the ``old`` instinct of us vs. them. In the US they teach this very deliberately - and any parent with a US born child knows better than to talk ill of any group (blacks, whites, chinese, American Indians, whatever) in front of the child. These children can smell a such bigotted statement in a moment as I think most South Asian immigrant parents to the US may have realized :-). This is the training we need to give to children in the sub-continent as well.

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To Bhartiya Confused:

`Will we Muslims have the courage to reform our Religion and free it from the clutches of Arabs and Arab Slaves like Klutz, Studebaker and Hamdani-bhai?`

I suppose I became an Arab Slave when I wrote an article about Bin Tilak and Bin Gokhale ... two great Arab leaders right?

Grow up little boy...

-YLH

And we have `friend` the person who probably ran away from an insane assylum teaching people lessons in `level headedness`.

Sadna 316

Sadna at trial here is your deliberate and absolutely misleading use of words. I am fired left and right eventhough I quote Gandhi completely and 100% accurately, and here you are absolutely lying completely. You arguments are rendered invalid because your shameless lying!

All your questions have been answered very well by a lot of chowkies on this board. I personally dont see the reason why we should continue to explain something to a person who is not only pig headed but a shameless liar!

Now you are uttering some obscure words about tahmed`s (and mine) mullahism and caste system? You are entitled to your pathetic lying and continuous distortion.

And when you start thinking about leads, start thinking about all the women who are much worse off in India as illustrated so well by many posters... and believe the number of deliberately

non-franchised women in India is greater than a hundred or two hundred thousand women.

Re: #273

``You are mistaken! No image comes to my mind when I think of the word Allah or God.``

hobbyty,

I think you confuse the word `image` = `idol`. When I said image, I didn`t mean idol only. More precisely - an image is a set of qualities (either real or imagined).

It cannot be as you say - that absolutely no `mental` image is associated in your mind about the word `Allah`.

When you say ``Allah, the most merciful, the most powerful, etc`` you are defining His qualities, aren`t you? Thats your image - a mentally generated image of a merciful, allpowerful, allknowing being (without an actual form of

course like the hindus/christians have) - but an image nevertheless. Is this too difficult to see?

When we pray, I mean REALLY pray (say in an emergency) we are actually imploring someone. You will not deny this I hope. Do we implore to a vacuum???

The difference between a mental image and a clay one is quite trivial, isn`t it? Both create an object (with certain qualities) to help focus the mind in prayer.

regards,

Eklavya

The ``Samachar`` article and the previous ones in the ``Hindu`` are directed towards positioning on the UN debate of racism and discrimination

No one wants to diminsh claims of ``great strides``, however; the fact the self help groups within castes now manuver towards interest group politics, suggests that caste biases remain operative and now channel their caste biases through politics.

ZZ

Idolatory for those who wish to do so is, as far as I`m concerned. OK, for them!

I was pointing out that traditional Hindu worship does not conform to the definition of idolatory. But if you say it is, OK for you.

My intention was not offer offense, if I have, please accept my apology.

Bharatya Musalman

Why don`t you start your own sect? You take the lead. Most people don`t have the choice to be a leader or a follower, you do. You can exercise your personal Ijtehad - your own freedom of conscience.

Earlier post is perhaps still with chowk censor.

tahmek #268

``.. I think you should try to improve your IQ by having your village barber transplant your brain with that of a cockroach... ``

Are you referring Sadna to same barber who, while doing khatna, cut your`s ``y&lh`` to a cockroach`s size.

tahmed to sadna

[I think your head is made of wood and you are incapable of understanding this. Instead of wasting months and months on Chowk and learning nothing (as is true in your case), I think you should try to improve your IQ by having your village barber transplant your brain with that of a cockroach.]

tahmed #268

You were way out of ur line there. You Sir, really disappointed many.

Sadna

I have noticed Zahra, use this kind of excuse/escape once too often. So, dont bother asking her any Q`s in the future. She`ll come up with some sort of wise-crack (mostly in urdu) and leave it at that.

---SN

klutz

((Anyway everyone knows whats happening in palestine and kashmir... also what happened in bosnia etc.Does anyone care?No!!1000 of muslims are being killed,molested,harrassed,beaten to death,etc etc and no one is doind anything...there is almost no media coverage.Yet when something happens to a non-muslim ,or God Forbid a muslims kills a non-muslim it makes the headlines...Front PAGEE!!

Muslims being harrassed is old news now.. its not important any more!right????!!?!??!Sheesh!!and then u guys have the nerve to call me bigoted!! * * *

Atleast our newspapers print a somewhat fairer picture of what really happened if not the entire truth!!If u wantt to read about what muslims are going through then i believe pakistani newspapers are better for that purpose.I am not saying they present an entire picture of what really is going on...believe me no newspaper presents the true picture!! American newspapers are biased towards muslims and muslim countries!!and i know that for sure!!))

hullo klutz

..may i take this very true post as a chance to welcome you here...its so funny how most of these dudooz manage to put it all on us...``pakistanis and muslims are intolerant nya nya nya nya`` while right here on chowk u have a whole band of them not only tearing to bits the country and having a ball at it but also saying things about our religious figures...highly offensive things...and then they quote from papers about isolated incidences making sweeeeeping generalizations as though it were the gospel...the same case with what u just said above...about bloody time somebody with sass showed up...:o)

love,

anNy

Sadhna Dear:

Chunda, if you cannot be a disciple then have the nerve to say so. Please do not misread my shikshaa. That was heart bleeding! [Tears]


(Sweet)friend:

Thank you for your amusing shikwah.

Well, I wanted to mingle with the rest therefore had to acquire their traits :) Do I need to say anything more after that?[with a very innocent face]


For both of you:

Zahra #300
From your little lecture anyone would think that a Muslim society where nonMuslims are considered equal is not something within common knowledge, but is something mythical like El Dorado.

ylh #311
Were A LARGE NUMBER of women(more than 1.3 lakhs and across 2 whole districts) prevented from voting in NWFP or not?? Due to the threats of a religious group? Will you pay attention only if it was the entire province?

What did this incident have to do with Hindu culture and does it not disprove Acheron2`s article`s entire thesis?

If Islam is so egalitarian where were the Islamic scholars and their adherents at hand to prevent this in defence of its dearly-held egalitarianism and inherent democracy of Islam?

Where was the secular-in-spirit Pakistani government on hand to prevent this in defence of its dearly-held secular principles?

Where are the widespread protests among Pakistanis against preventing more than a hundred thousand women from voting?

Why is India supposed to follow Pakistan`s lead in this matter ?

When are Pakistanis going to actually DO something to show their much-touted secularism?

`` The rest of the post 249 explains why a Muslim Society should accept Non Muslims as equals in this day and age.``

Yes, (we all know what you think and its to your credit,) but tell me WHERE IT ACTUALLY DOES?

btw, I donot subscribe to the chowk mullahism of yours and tahmed321 variety. I respect thoughts and ideas and sentiments based on what is expressed, not based on who is saying.

And I donot subscribe to your and tahmed321`s caste system, sorry, any perpetuation of this caste system will have to be done without my pariticipation.

Bio-data of Pakistan`s current Education Minister, Zubaida Jalal. Musharraf has made an interesting choice. Quite young; only 42 years old, and home-grown product. For some reason, I always thought she was around 60 years old. One would think with all the foreign-returned Ph.Ds. around, Musharraf would have gone for one of them. I wonder if they resent that.

George Bush refered to her as, ``very capable`` (or something similar) in a press conference. Cowasjee really seems to like her, also. I don`t know what Hoodbhoy`s views are on her. I wonder if she is any good?

``Born in 1959, Mrs Zobaida Jalal had her early education in Kuwait. She holds a Master`s Degree Literature from the University of Balochistan, Quetta. She established a girl`s primary school on self-help basis. She also started the first pilot project of interest free credit scheme provided by UNICEF.

She worked with numerous national and international organizations, founding hospitals, creating a curriculum for an Adult Literacy School, and establishing 45 male and female community organizations. She visited a number of countries and presented papers on various subjects. She has received a large number of honours, awards and medals from various foundations and governmental organisations.`` (http://www.ibe.unesco.org/International/ICE/ministers/pakistan.htm)

Aamir #276 I would be willing to contribute my prayers for the ``Pathetic Bigots on Chowk Fund``. Sadna will be our poster child, with Jay Bahadur being the stand-in.

Please, however, refrain from falling into the ``Bigot Trap`` by retaliating and ridiculing other people`s religions or countries: they have done you no harm, and have as much right to have their religious feelings respected as any other human being, and you lower yourself to the level of the Sadnas and Jays of the world.

Zahra darling#: 300

``Aap Ko Bila-wajah Kee Behas Kurnae Kee Buhat Buri Adut Hae. Iss Kaa Undaza Mujhae Kafi Ursae Pehale Ho Gaya Thaa. ...``

I never expected such post from you. Thought you were one with a balanced head.

I have an interesting link for people on the chowk.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/100501/detCIT15.asp

Worshipping idols is hardly a matter of shame compared to worshipping books demanding followers to kill all kafirs and condoning a prophet´s marriage to a 9-year-old.

even the greek had gods of all sorts. at least that shows some creativity and sophistication in recognizing that whatever is enchanting in the universe exists in all living creatures and in the elements such as wind, fire, water, etc...

Worshipping idols is hardly a matter of shame compared to worshipping books demanding followers to kill all kafirs and condoning a prophet´s marriage to a 9-year-old.

even the greek had gods of all sorts. at least that shows some creativity and sophistication in recognizing that whatever is enchanting in the universe exists in all living creatures and in the elements such as wind, fire, water, etc...

CONFRONTING SADNA`S LIES:

Sadna 255, YLH 249

I do read my newspapers ... that is why I proved to you that the sweeping and misleading propaganda lie that you made that `no woman in NWFP` was allowed to vote is wrong ... because there are far too many liberal educated and Modern Women in NWFP

for that to be true! I admitted in my original post that in one district this actually happened.

For Sadna`s information NWFP is not restricted to

Dir and Malakand. You are the master of exaggeration and lies, and I congratulate you for being that .... after all your creed never succeeded in anything else. Next time it will help not to simply skim through my post. If you are really worth your salt you will apologize for so blatantly lying ....

There are a lot of women I know including my own two aunts ... Mrs Nuzhat Illiyas and Dr Zumarad Tanwir... both my mother`s sisters (and both are non-hijabis like my mother mashallah).. who won the elections. Mrs Nuzhat Illiyas became a councillor and I am not too sure what Dr Zumarad Tanwir became... she was formerly the chairperson Women`s Wing PPP Islamabad ....

Amongst the Pakistanis I have never met a more moderate person than tahmed321 (though I have some serious issues with him) and that now he is upset with you is a testament of your bigotry, fanaticism and your machiavellian character.

The rest of the post 249 explains why a Muslim Society should accept Non Muslims as equals in this day and age.

ISLAMIC HISTORY AND MINORITIES .. CONFRONTING ACCUSATIONS:

Smellycat:

You are definitely deserving of the name. However

any objective historian (eg Bernard Lewis) will maintain that Muslims have treated their minorities better than anyone else. Indeed there have been events which have terrible according to our times, but then was `killing off the Indians` and `the confiscation of Mexican territory` by the US any better. If you will point fingers at Islam in 8th Century, I will show you worse examples in the US of the 19th century... but this doesnot take away from the essence of US`s ideals, as it does not take away from the essence of Islamic Ideals. The bottom line is that ISLAM did treat its minorities much better. The Kafirs of Mecca were in a treaty with Medinan Muslims and they broke the treaty, so Muslims conquered them. We donot have any reports of killings of Meccans after the `Fatah Mecca` ... they were given two choices... pay the minority tax, or accept Islam.

Where else in the world at that time was the conquered nation treated so generously ? Even in the US in 1800s, Indians were mercilessly put to death.

It is time I believe you started reading anyone other than Swami Pandit Hari Chand Bhatyacharya..

Some books that these `Islam-Haters` should read:

History of the Middle East by Bernard Lewis

Arabs in History by Bernard Lewis

Jews of Islam by Bernard Lewis

Islam the Right Path by John L Esposito

Islam and Politics by John L Esposito

Emerging Voices by John L Esposito

And there are many more books by Hoorani, Esposito, Lewis, Lamb etc the names of which I cant remember....

Shankar,

Yes I know AJA, and I also know Aisha Sarwari .. as for Bhartiya, he is just another fool in a long line of rejects.

As for your second post... I totally agree with everything your said... and I wish India and Indians best of luck as I always have.

Long Live Pakistan

re. hobbyty:

``PM...Why don`t you commit to the point - Do Christians pray to idols? Please do not get etheral - it`s uncalled for, this is pretty straight forward stuff - ``

What!? And deprive myself of this little pleasure of knowing you`re not able to peg me down neatly? Naaah! :)

Oh what the heck! ..... Yes. IMHO most Christians, like most Muslims do. Now, I believe I`ve already stated the reason I hold this belief and am not about to tourture the poor chowkwallahs again with my convoluted theses.

``Regarding the Christian peasants - I concede that only those that feel it, know it.``

And why aren`t more people feeling it, even when it does make the newspaper headlines every now and again? Are we so shamefully desensitized to the plight of Minorities? Is there a role played by any Islamic teachings (however selective) in this apathetic attitude?

``Are there Pakistani Christian groups that are involved with either conscience raising exercises or directly helping to educate christian peasants in Punjab? or advocacy groups?``

Yes, the Church is actually pretty active in the villages and slums, with ongoing outreach programmes and education. It would help a great deal to have the backing of the State in these affairs. However, with lawas like the Qisa (sp?) and Diyat been promulgated (here you go, Sadna!), that effectively, nay LITERALLY, value the life of a Minotity as half of that of a Muslim, one wonders how the apathetic and downright bigoted attitudes of many Muslims is expected to change.

``Praying to God or praying to Christ? Is there a difference? Isn`t the trinity also a unity?``

Oh Jeez!! I don`t believe you actually bought that 3rd century sorry excuse of a doctrine for reconciling tri-theism with monotheism. Go back to your own scriptures-- i honestly think they have it right there. You (Christains, I mean) can`t have it both ways.

``On the Images of God -...

Perhaps I should have used the word visage? instead of image. what do you think? Because you are suggesting that the attributes are an image?``

I`m sugesting that attributes can very easily lead to images, which they obviously do for a majority of Muslims who, as I pointed out, have no problems whatsoever speaking of Allah in the same manner as Christians refer to God... as a Big Manup there somewhere prolly with a long white beard. Tell me, how easy it is for you to AVOID conjuring up an image of such a God when you hear that this God asks Abraham to go sacrifice his son, and then reveals that, heck, it was only a test of his faith?

``Has the slow dumb Muslim got it half assed right?``

Now, now, please don`t paint me as muslim-basher. At least in this debate, I`ve repeatedly categorized Muslims and Christians together...

My point being

xxxabbu

Can you suggest a work from R. Tharpar?

Tahmed, Mahesh G

The call for national debate, to me, makes sense. It has worked in other countries and other cultures and it will work in India and Pakistan. It has the effect of raising the consciouness and of challenging the status quo. The greater the debate, the more readily, notions that do not hold water will succumb.

Please read my post 248 -

You will see that I challenge the notion that Hindus or Christians worship Idols.

Also note that the definitions of Idol I provided are dictionary definitions and the problem, in my opinion, you seem to be having is that you are not challenging the notion of idolatory - which I am sure you both agree is by definition to be be avoided.

Idolatory would be worshipping the idol.

Whereas the presence of the idol in worshipping the diety would not be idolatory, as the purpose of the is not as the object of worship.

sadhna 299

There are no `views` there. Only empty assertions and tall claims such as `I could write but wont because you wont understand any way.`

re: tahmed321# 296 (cont.)

I can share with you what I was told, as a kid, about modes of worship, which has more or less stayed with me. I think most Hindus share similar views.

I was told that God was infinity (anant, anaadi), and that we humans could not hope to fully grasp God through our senses or even through our imagination. Such an infinite God clearly could not have any paticular form (nirupa). So we all had two choices when it came to thinking about God. We could think of God either as nirarakar (form less, bodyless) or as sakar (with form and body). The latter was easier to concentrate on for most folks. But it was made clear to me that what particular form you think of God in does NOT matter one bit. In my own family, different members of my family worship God in very different forms and different ways. Yet there is an unambiguous understanding of the fundamental unity of all forms of worship.

So, do we worship idols? Yes and no. The answer will depend on the level of intellectual and religious understanding and the level of humanity within the person asking such a question... As for myself, if someone could teach me, I would happily pray as Muslims do (which btw I find very attractive), and feel equally satisfied. I dont think there is a God out there getting all hassled about how people are praying to Him or who is marrying whom or who is reading which book. Any infinite God that takes care of billions of stars and millions of galaxies must be far above these things.

re: tahmed # 296

The debate on caste is ferocious and multidimensional. Look, for example, at this article from yesterday:

http://features.samachar.com/070701-fpj.html

It is part of a huge recent national argument regarding whether caste-discrimination can be equated with racism. There are similar, constant arguments on whether reservations (or their current form) are the right solution to the problem of caste; whether reservations have made any real difference; whether we now have a `creamy layer` of lower caste people; whether problems of caste are similar to/exacerbated by problems of poverty and lack of education; whether national economic policies directly impinge on the problems of caste; or the role of electronic media or geographic mobility on weakening the hold of caste...and so on. I hope someone who focuses on this more than I do, will write about these debates in greater detail.

Overall, however, (and some of our Pakistani friends do not seem to realize this) the caste system has ALREADY LOST the INTELLECTUAL debate in the Hindu society. No intellectual...not even a politician...today will openly, let alone proudly, claim that the caste system is `right.` In NONE of these aforementioned debates would you find people defending caste system by quoting from religious texts or writings of religious scholars!! That stage stage is, thankfully, behind us. Casteism continues to be the bane of Indian politics but the *justification * of these politics is NEVER that caste is right (because God wished it that way or any such absurd reason). Rather casteist politics is invariably presented as a form of self help - taking care of the political and material interests of one`s own group.

Certainly, public intellectual delegitimation is not emotional delegitimation, let alone actual behavioral change. But public delegitimation of ideas, you will agree, is a HUGE step in changing the thinking of people over many generations. Our hope is that if we school our kids properly, if we can tell them and make them appreciate how evil this system is, then ...every new generation coming in is likely to find traditional casteist thinking less `reasonable`, or less `sacred` If this happens, then, over time...the evil practice may even disappear (if our self-serving politicians let it...but that is another debate).

Public intellectual delegitimation of evil and exclusionary ideas is not the end of the journey...but it is the crucial first step if we hope to change our societies, and our own humanity, for the better. On the other hand, if we take the contrary path, if we fail to publicly delegitimate our evil and exclusionary ideas for whatever reason, we as groups are far less likely to change for the better, from a human standpoint.

Before this article ``Brahmin and Mullah`` says good bye to the front page, I would like to quote Iqbal:

Sadhna Dear:

Aap Ko Bila-wajah Kee Behas Kurnae Kee Buhat Buri Adut Hae. Iss Kaa Undaza Mujhae Kafi Ursae Pehale Ho Gaya Thaa. I would give you the shikhshaa only if will become my disciple. Otherwise, I am sorry my dear, I ain`t showing you the Road to Eldorado :) Kur Lo Jo Kurna Hae!

:)

Zahra #270
Please oblige us with your views, in which Muslim society are nonMuslims considered equal to Muslims in all respects, even in the sight of God?

klutz #whichever

The genocide of more than 1 million minority Kurds in the last 50 years by their Muslim majority countrymen in more than one Muslim country and your abysmal ignorance of this statistic is due to what?


ylh #from another board

Think about it, `Ahimsa paramo dharma` implying peaceful mass demonstrations may well be the ideal way to for Pakistanis of all classes and religious affiliations to register their widespread and heartfelt rejection of the arrogance of sectarian hatred imposed through the gun on harmless doctors in your major port city.

If one didnot apprehend massacres, it would be also be the way for ordinary Afghans to register their protest against the Taliban`s repressive policies and continued war without needing money for bigger and better arms and fighters.

klutz #294
Will you explain why there is only one Jew left in Afghanistan?

And why a large number of Afghan Jews faced persecution and steadily migrated to Bombay, India (among other places) in the last 300 years?

Mahesh #288 MaheshG

You write: ``Yes, most Hindus worship idols. They worship the form of God they believe in.``

Good answer, and I hope Hobbyty will agree. Incidentally, I understand that there is a Hindu prayer where the worshipper apologizes to the Supreme One (Brahman) for praying before a physical representation (idol), and (the prayer goes) states that this is due to the human limitations of the worshipper in being able to comprehend the tangible rather than the intangible majesty of God. I think it is a beautiful prayer, and yet another proof on how wrong people like Mahmud of Ghazni have been in not respecting other religions. I wonder if MaheshG or Shankar or some other knowledgable person would shed some light on this prayer (I just read about it in a book on comparitive religions): like are you aware of it? is it a common prayer? I think it is time we muslims started respecting other forms of worship

``Regarding the caste system. Yes, it is cruel. ``

Agreed. The caste system is what I call ``man`s creation``: the concept exists, like other evil, in the hearts of all men, not just Hindus. It is time we separated what is divine and what is man-made. As individuals, we should be concerned first and foremost with our own attitudes: do we address the driver with the same respect as his sahib? do we talk to our subordinates with the same respect as we talk to our bosses? If not, then I think we have work to do, regardless of whether we are Hindus or Muslims.

``Who do you think is trying to rectify the centuries of discrimination against the lower caste people?``

``There is an intellectual debate going on in the Hindu society. Do you expect us to wipe out this scourge in one sitting?``

I hope so. In what form is this debate taking place? in newspapers, or the lok sabha? I am genuinely curious, not trying to be clever.

Reply #: 276

Aamir

hahaha that really was hilarious :P i see some ppl still have a good sense of humour here. Yea Sadna we arent heartless u know.

This really is getting interesting.

Reply:

dost-mittar

``As a point of reference, how many Muslim girls you know in Pakistan who have married non-Muslim men, raised their children as non-Muslims, have not left the country and are still alive?``

maybe u dont know but in islam a women is not allowed to marry a non-muslim so there is no question of raising their children as non-muslims.

``The ones who remain are always in mortal fear of their lives lest one of their neighbours should make an arbitrary complaint of blasphemy against them.``

WHo told u that???did u personally see what happened to sikhs and other minorities with ur own eyes?maybe in some parts of pakistan where ppl are ignorant and illitrate, might hold minorities with contempt.. but i dont and most of the pakis dont either.I myself know many christians and not one of them have ever said anything about being mistreated.

you ask us how dare we raise a cry for justice when u urself admit that muslim minorities are being mistreated? okay so maybe minorities are being mistreated here (and believe me i object to that mistreatment) but injustice to a non-muslim in pakistan is almost non-existent.But anyway why dont u then raise this issue???why dont u and ur indian brothers ask fro justice instead of asking us how dare we say that muslim minorities rights are being curbed.?

Reply:

egalitarian_brahmin

I didnot say it happened in india although it is one of many countries in which muslim minorities are being harrassed!i dont need to ask anyone about whats going on in india or anywhere else in the world.

How would i know what everyone has against muslims! maybe because everyone is afraid of us ``terrorists``? Why dont u go ask ur indian friends and people from other countries?

Anyway everyone knows whats happening in palestine and kashmir... also what happened in bosnia etc.Does anyone care?No!!1000 of muslims are being killed,molested,harrassed,beaten to death,etc etc and no one is doind anything...there is almost no media coverage.Yet when something happens to a non-muslim ,or God Forbid a muslims kills a non-muslim it makes the headlines...Front PAGEE!!

Muslims being harrassed is old news now.. its not important any more!right????!!?!??!Sheesh!!and then u guys have the nerve to call me bigoted!! * * *

Atleast our newspapers print a somewhat fairer picture of what really happened if not the entire truth!!If u wantt to read about what muslims are going through then i believe pakistani newspapers are better for that purpose.I am not saying they present an entire picture of what really is going on...believe me no newspaper presents the true picture!! American newspapers are biased towards muslims and muslim countries!!and i know that for sure!!

That example of a rabbi was just to show u that talibans donot stop the minorities from practicing their religion!!... any person with a little sense would know why i pasted that!and any person with a little sense would also know that just to show that all minorities are safe everywhere just because talibans let the jew practice his religion. Phuleeezzzz!!!egalitarian_brahmin ure wasting my time with this nonsense. If u have something important to talk about only then post me ur replies... i have enough to do than sit down and reply to ur silly remarks.

Smellycat sweetheart u are way outta line lady (oops sorry),ladies are supposed to be sweet and charming and ofcourse intelligent.WE cant call ppl who are inane,irksome,stupid,bigoted,senseless, and not to forget dimwits!Now as we`ve cleared that lets get back to what u said.

As i was saying ur remarks about our prophet and Allah are uncalled for. Plz try to refrain from talking nonsense about ppl we regard with great honour & respect.I dont think that anyone of us muslims degraded ur GOD...we can dish out insults as well,we can retaliate as well but alas!! we have been taught good manners.. and my mommmy told me once that we should not stoop down to morons like urs level!!!I see u way way down there smelly!!

Ahhh i know why u wrote all that stupid nonsense...u want attention!!! GOD!! why didnt i think of that bfr....everyone plz pay some attention to this poor gurl ... shes hungry for some attention plzz ppl do soemthing..quickly bfr she bombards us with another dose of her brainless, absurd, childish and idiotic posts!!!

Aamir #276
I was talking about Pakistanis like this author considering faults of `Hindu` culture more relevant to Pakistan than faults of `Islamic` culture.

In Saudi Arabia, for murder there are different penalties. If the dead man is a Muslim, penalty for murder is maximum, if the dead man is a Christian, the penalty for murder is less and for killing a Hindu, the penalty is the least.
I donot doubt the penalty also depends on the religious affiliation of the murderer.

With such barbaric distinctions within the Islamic tradition even in the present day, nor even a push for institutional justice for all in most Muslim countries one can think of, all this Hindu-bashing is even more incredible.
Can anyone name any significiant reform movements(social, religious, political) in Pakistan which is fighting for equal treatment of nonMuslims and women and erasing of sectarian boundaries and which is backed up by theology and clergy?

The Hindu-bashing is all the more incredible given that religious, social, political movements as well as institutional measures for reform have been present in modern Hindu society for a long time, even before the last century. An ignorance of these is not a sufficient argument for the existence of never-seen never-heard never-fought-for perfections of so-called `Islamic` society.

Drumz: Not to ruin your day, but according to my calculations based on basic vital stats for Pakistan, 34,000 infants die each month in Pakistan. And the reason is not politics - it is poverty. To apply Philosopher Pogo`s wisdom to the sub-continent: We have met the Enemy, and He is Poverty. And the prime responsibility for fixing Poverty rests with - you guessed it - us, the ex-infants who managed to make it and can now comfortably spout our wisdom on chowk.

Hobbyty,

If christians don`t worship the idol of Jesus then who are idol worshippers?

Then neither are Hindus.

Nobody is.

So, who are you ranting and raving against?

Hobbyty,

Yes, most Hindus worship idols. They worship the form of God they believe in. If you can think of why muslims pray towards Mecca then you would have answered your question about why Hindus worship idols.

Regarding the caste system. Yes, it is cruel. Yes, it is inhuman to treat fellow human beings based on the family they are born into. Yes, the caste wouldn`t have been so pervasive if an intellectual debate had taken place about it some time ago.

But, do you think it is not taking place? Who do you think made the caste system illegal? Was it the glorious christians or the heralded muslims? No, it was us hindus who did it? Who do you think is trying to rectify the centuries of discrimination against the lower caste people? Is it you? It is us again, the evil hindus.

As Shankar pointed out. We are doing something about it. There is an intellectual debate going on in the Hindu society. Do you expect us to wipe out this scourge in one sitting? Do you think if all hindus got together and debated the caste system out everybody would immediately what a heinous practice this is?

If you are honest you will give credit where it`s due.

Mass awareness to discourage

inter-family marriages urged

By our correspondent

PESHAWAR: Doctors and social motivators on Sunday called for creating mass awareness to discourage inter-family marriages to control mental and physical disabilities and different diseases taking its toll on human lives, specially, children.

//The above article from jung of today explains a lot about the behaviour / posts of many pakistanis, con-genital ..

Ref Hobbyty

CASTE SYSTEM

``I charge you and all those who will not reject the caste system, with having institutionalized discrimination, with inhumanly holding in cruel servitude, millions of your co-religionists and fellow humans. Shame on you for even justifying it by trying to explain it.``

You are mainly preaching to the choir buddy. I do not see any Indians in denial abt the caste system. I believe almost all Indians will agree that castism is one of the most heartless and cynical religiuos/social practices anywhere.

If the reason for your outbursts is a genuine feeling that not enough Hindus are talking about this problem or doing sth about it, then pls be assured that this is not the case. Of course there will always be blockheads who will try to justify casteism for their own ends, but fortunately this tribe seems to have utterly lost its voice in the country`s polity. I can say with a lot of confidence that Hindus are already fairly on the way to kicking out this unwelcome feature from their society and religion.

What non-hindus frequently dont realize is that the caste system is not a codified feature of hinduism; in fact nohting is, since there is no Book in hinduism. To be sure, varnas - division of labour - are an integral part of the vedas, but like features in many religions, they are artifacts of the times. As part of an epistimological corpus, the varna is one aspect among many, any or all of which may be chosen or rejected in any combination by the hindu according to his/her inclination.

Of course, this is not how it went in history! Countless Brahminical treatises were written whcih slowly cemented the role of caste as a non-optional part of the belief system. Even so, the institutionalisation of caste was a slow process lasting several hundred years. This process of exegesis and institutionalisation of exploitative norms is common to all religious traditions, in varying degree. I think its quite pointless to argue now whether a particular belief is an integral or original part of a religion. What is far more important is to realise that religions are living, evolving things whcih have been subject to much historical use and abuse by vested interests. So the enlightened thing to do would be to identify the exploitative and/or archaic parts of the liturgy and excise them best one can. I think most Hindus realise this. They do not consider caste system, at least its current pernicious form, as a cornerstone of their religion. If this were not so, why do you think they`d let the govt pass a law banning it? To put in perspective, what will happen if your govt decides to ban, say, the Hajj (just for argument sake)?

Of course, the law is only the first step. Casteism will only stop when everyone is educated and aware of their rights. Pls note that this does not require chucking out the religion itself, but simply to make people aware that caste system is not an acceptable part of it. Hindus are quite fortunate that way - there is no word of God telling them whats what, so its fine to modify beliefs to suit the times.

Of course, it will never be perfect, no matter what. For some reason God decided to reserve that honour for certain Bedouin tribes a while ago.

``There is nowhere to hide! I want the truth about your caste system and it`s relationship with your religion! And I want the truth of the discrimination and degradation this system has brought upon tens of millions of human beings!``

If you really want the truth, why settle at anecdotal evidence or opinion, which is what posters here can give you. There are a number of excellent books on the history, sociology and consequences of the caste system. Check out Romila Thapar in particular.

xxabbu

Egalitarian

``Btw, are you all cuckoo? What`s with the CAN`T LIVE WITH YOU, CAN`T LIVE UNDER YOU? You can`t live with yourselves``

Does this ring a bell???

``Unhappy in the states they`re in`` - connect the dots - I have not a doubt that you can find 500,000 or more Sindhi - review your statement above - still feeling so superior? or do you not realize the kind of ass you have made of yourself?

``Please save us this irrelevant hooey ABCDs shell out for the ignorant Americans to read``

In your earlier posts you didn`t think these Americans were so ignorant - what`s changed your mind? You seemed to care, mentioned something about world trade center - what`s changed your mind?

Anyways, Egalitarian, sooner or later you will run into a Muslim, (I don`t mean cyber space) you may need a job or something or the other, pray that Muslim is not aware of your views. But hatred is hard to disguise. It`s not just India, Muslims are everywhere, look at the likes of Milosovich, others will also be held accountable and not just in courts of law.

My sense is that you are rather a young person, I tell you to come to terms with what you think and why and resolve some of your issues with Islam and Muslims.

Dear fthaver:

You write:

``````Like I said the answer to me lies not in being

rational but being critical which religion nor science appears to address.````

my dear fellow, are you sure? -- unless you`re RATIONAL -- how can you be truly CRITICAL -- I mean ``rationally`` critical which Science does -- NOT ``irrationally`` critical -- which RELIGION does.

Based upon experimentally verifiable facts -- Science only PROPOSES -- based upon unverfiable fantasy and schizophrenic hallucinations -- Religion simply IMPOSES.

Secularism by itself -- is no panacea for a country`s ills -- Secular Humanism is.

PM

Why don`t you commit to the point - Do Christians pray to idols?

Please do not get etheral - it`s uncalled for, this is pretty straight forward stuff -

Regarding the Christian peasants - I concede that only those that feel it, know it. Are there Pakistani Christian groups that are involved with either conscience raising exercises or directly helping to educate christian peasants in Punjab? or advocacy groups?

Praying to God or praying to Christ? Is there a difference? Isn`t the trinity also a unity?

On the Images of God -

``The ideal is is not achieved by mere subscription to a belief, especially blindly. In fact, all meantion of God`s actions (created Man/ caused the Flood/sent the Quran) or sayings (``Thou shalt not [do this that and the other]``) -- all these things militate against the idea of an imageless God. Not for nothing did the Hebrew masters of yore insist that God cannot be known by any attributes; but only by what He/It is NOT!``

Perhaps I should have used the word visage? instead of image. what do you think? Because you are suggesting that the attributes are an image? Has the slow dumb Muslim got it half assed right? For clarity, In my orginal posts, I did not mean that the attributes can or should be seen as an image, certainly they do not conjure up an image/visage for me, but I can see your point.

On the Tibet monks bit - sarcasm? really? Poor Muslims, not really the equal of Tibetan monks!

``To summarize... if the idol helps you perceive/experience the [your word for the `God` experience], the religious goal has been reached. Concepts/words, like idols are only the finger that points the way, not the Reality Itself, as the old Zen saying goes.``

How the heck is this different from what I said about the presence of the idol???

sigalph

``We will not waver, we w ill not falter, we will not fail. We will prevail because ultimately our cause is just``-George W. Bush

GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!

LOLOL

Mr. Sigalph allow me to thank you for this fit of hysterical laughter i just got over.

further to hobbytywho writes:

``Muslim conditioning welcomes no image of God, it`a almost sacreligious to suggest that an image of God is percieved by Muslims when they do pray to God. Perhaps you are not aware of the prohibition within Islam of any kind of religious icons.``

All very well.. and I honestly do believe that that is one of the more sublime, evolved teachings in Islam. However, that is not to say that the average Muslim (who, oddly, has no problems with references to the Almightly in anthropological terms such as ``Allah MiaN``) does not have some image of God.

The ideal is is not achieved by mere subscription to a belief, especially blindly. In fact, all meantion of God`s actions (created Man/ caused the Flood/sent the Quran) or sayings (``Thou shalt not [do this that and the other]``) -- all these things militate against the idea of an imageless God. Not for nothing did the Hebrew masters of yore insist that God cannot be known by any attributes; but only by what He/It is NOT!

To summarize... if the idol helps you perceive/experience the [your word for the `God` experience], the religious goal has been reached. Concepts/words, like idols are only the finger that points the way, not the Reality Itself, as the old Zen saying goes.

rgds,

PM

re. hobbyty #272

``What exactly is your position? Are you suggesting that Christians pray to Idols? If you are, You are wrong! ``

Ok.. If you say so. Guess I was under this crazy misconception that the idea of Jesus being God was idolatrous in the eyes of Muslims. Do forgive me my ignorance.

``Christians peasants are indebted to landlords in Punjab, not because of State policy or Islam.``

I was not sugesting that the latter was the case at all. Though...

``That they are Christians is incidental to the fact that they are poor, uneducated and unwilling or unable to make choices other than the indebtedness to the landlord, are not Muslim peasants in the same ring of fire?. So how is that discrimination against Christian peasants?``

If you are suggesting that the propensity for the local administration to look the other way when Christian peasants are raped is the same as when Muslim peassants suffer the same fate, then I cannot agree with you. Christain/Hindu peasants are doubly subjugated/discriminated against... first for being poor and then for being non-Muslim too.

I understand this is common knowledge among social workers in Pakistan.

rgds,

PM

PS.. about Allah and non-images... It takes Tibetian monks years of mental physical discpline to fathom the essence of Nothingness.. Glad to hear that every Muslim procaliming the inscrutability of Allah MiaN can accomplish this feat without such exercises in austerity.

Anarayan, if I read #250 right, did not draw aa distinction between imaged and imageless gods. It was between one`s that ha more than a mere conceptual hull (or name) and one`s that related to one`s EXPERIENCE of the transcendant, be it through fire, water, the air or the earth ... or anything else!

Too convoluted for your liking again? :) Well... religion is known to do strange thing to some minds :)

rgds,

PM

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Shankar babu,

I appriciate and reciprocate the ``peace``

Now the fireworks:

I am not implying that Caste is something that Hindus are proud of - on the other hand - there is no point trying to explain it away. It`s vile! We all know that and we all agree on that. If we just outlaw it but keep it within the teaching that make up Hinduism, we will be evading a national debate (indeed, India has made great strides in almost all other fields - except this) - It is this debate that will open the Hindu masses to opinions that till present, remain among a small number of persons. Trust me when I tell you that the consequences of such a debate will be felt in, and make an impression in Pakistan as well.

Be assured, I in no way, want to be associated with persons or ideas that suggest, that not just Hindus, but all persons, are other than the creation of God. On the other hand expect a reaction when Islam is debased merely for the purpose of debasing it. (as if Muslims need help with that!)

You must know by now, that when I say Islam, I`m not talking of the petty magic and personal power plays, that is passing itself off to uneducated persons as Islam. I hope you really do know that about the position I am taking. I remain open to informed, constructive criticism, preferably debate, not Egalitarian`s ``polemic``, but this criticism has a framework that is different from that of Hinduism. You may argue why different?

I had requested that you consider the implications of the word faith in relation to Islam. Hinduism does not require the same kind of faith, nor does it have the same relationship with redemption, and directly with forgiveness and the Allmighty- that is why I suggested that we can not compare these two on the same terms, they are structured differently.

In Islam, God is not a personage, has no physicality or visage - he is perfection, rather creation is his creation.

The word of God is itself perfect, by definition.

Is Islam perfect, yes it hold itself to be pefect. Islam says it is perfect, if one were a believer, one would not have problem accepting that. And tell me who wants to be an adherent of an imperfect religious faith? Think about it? As am example, will a person hold, that in ones search for a religious faith that will connect the person to the universe, one would knowingly choose a religion that claims it is anything other the word of God, perfect, all knowing, all seeing, the creator of the universe? Can there be any other option? Weak example follows: If one buys a car, does one buy one that does not work?If an adherent comes to the conclusion that his or her religion is imperfect, they can leave the particular religious community.

This is not to say that I do not take your point about messages becoming diluted over time, the Islamic remedy is that the word of God is eternal and preserved in his Book. Listen, I`m not suggesting you or anyone else believe, but if you or anyone is going to berate a religious sentiment, simply for the sake of berating it, expect a reaction.



Why then are there schisms in Islam, because people, Muslims are not perfect, personalities and historic events have brought about schisms. Please read How Quran says the unitary word of God will be split into many sects, and that many Muslims will be led astray. Similarly the sects within Christianity and Judaism. Why must non-Muslims accept the perfection of Islam? They do not have to, if they did they would be Muslims.

By all means scrutinze (give me spell checker, please) Pakistani social mores, State policies, even religious interpretations and scholars - you will find more Pakistani giving opinions than Indians -Please refrain from attacking Islam, The Quran or the person of the holy messenger. These are non negotiable. It`s not that it will crumble under the attack, but that it will injure closely, deeply held sensibilities and what does it accomplish other than giving injury? Nothing is served, only injury done.

Have you ever read the Quran? I realize it does not make for light reading, (on the other hand it might) but it is a book, it can`t hurt to simply read it as a book.

About your why I got angry - believe it or not, I wrote my original post because of a very similar reaction caused by similar posts, only the antagonists were different.

By the way - I must admit, the abusing stuff was fun - liberating even - but lets not have too much fun.

Egalitarian Brahmim (something that never existed)

India was partitioned not broken - try and follow along - Partition acknowledges ownership - ``broken`` does not.

Next time you think you can polute and dump on Islam and Muslims, first look into your own dirty arm pit of a country, and be REMINDED, not only of who you are but that many others in India are seeking a better way, not just Kashmiris or the 5 other armed rebellions in India:

Washington Post/ Sunday July 8, 2001

``Unhappy with the State they`re in``

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/world31703

sorry for the personal thing -

hobbytv,

You dont seem to hear me. Caste system is NOT OK for hindus. It was created by Manu, who, by no means is a revered figure in Hinduism. Maybe his experiment in sociology made sense in his era; but it cursed Hinduism forever & we are still paying for that failed experiment. Hindus have been trying to change it; unfortunately with slow progress.

Eventhough the caste system still persists, unfortunately, things have changed a lot since independance. I have cursed my fate for being born a brahmin. I had to bust my butt to get into medical school, whereas a person from a backward caste had 25% seats reserved for him. All he had to do was scrape through premed to become a doctor. The same goes for any professional education in any field or government job. Since most of India`s job bank is still under the public sector, a huge number of dalits have risen through the ranks in white collared jobs. It makes the Affirmative Action program in the US look tepid.

Does that mean the problem is solved? Heck no, far from it. It will take many decades to change prejudices of people. However, as more & more dalits become educated professionals, their castes will no longer be looked as that of ``bhangis``. Better still, I hope caste will become irrelevant, some day. One of my brothers married a dalit, his classmate in medical school. Do you think the brahmin pujari refused to marry them in a vedic ceremony (or worse yet, take a bath because he was near my sis-in-law)?!--heck no! Do you think any of our relatives boycotted the marriage?!--heck no. Just like middle class families in Pakistan, middle class Indians are more concerned about the girl/boy`s educational status, whether his/her family is of a similar socio-economic background etc etc.

India`s middle class/ literate class has increased tremendously since independance. With education, people tend to be more broad minded & tolerant. However, since there are still more illiterate people (not to mention bigotted literate people), there is still intolerance. But things have definitely improved. To say that the majority of hindus look down on lower castes is like saying the majority of Pakistanis are jehadi fundos. Please try & change your prejudices of us, while we try to change our prejudices of you.

The important thing to remember is Hindus are acutely aware of the problems in our religion & are making changes. I dont recall hindus saying ``our religion is perfect``.

Maybe you & I arent thinking on the same frequency. Lets see. Maybe you are saying Islam is perfect because it is the literal word of God. So muslims maybe imperfect human beings, but Islam (the religion) is perfect. Ok, I can understand that.

But if it is perfect, why has Islam split into several sects? It seems to me, just like Christianity, the interpretation of God`s word differs, depending upon which scholar is studying the Koran. Should God`s word be interpreted literally? should it be interpreted figuratively? Are you willing to say that the Ahmedis, Shias (if you are Sunni) etc etc are practising an imperfect form of Islam? Hence I often hear this debate as to who is a ``real`` muslim & who isnt.

If a parent gives two brothers the same message, isnt it possible/likely that that message could be interpreted differently by the two brothers?Then who (other than God Himself) has the wisdom to say which son is correct? Now multiply that with several brothers. All these brothers & their children are fighting (& sometimes killing) each other by saying ``I`m a better son of God than you are``.

Kinda takes away the perfection out of the religion, does`nt it? Or maybe I should say; when the religion of Islam was delivered by God to the Prophet (pbuh) it was perfect. I will definitely accept that as true. Unfortunately, when it passed down from one generation to the next, human nature kinda destroyed its purity. I wont single out only Islam for that criticism. Its happened to every religion.

I got angry for one main reason. The bottom line was some muslim posters on this thread implied that we hindus are the children of a ``lesser God``. I find that highly offensive. Remember this, when you criticise the social problems or the philosophy of my religion; I will turn around & tell you, first clean up the mess in your religion before you tell us whats wrong with our religion.

Needless to say, the same goes to us hindus as well. We have NO right to think we are better than you because we dont agree with everything your religion says or how muslims behave. Lord knows, our house is quite messy.

Peace

Anarayan 250

You are mistaken! No image comes to my mind when I think of the word Allah or God.

But I understand (I think) why you think what you do. It is because that is your conditioning, and the frequent use of icons and imagery in your religion.

Muslim conditioning welcomes no image of God, it`a almost sacreligious to suggest that an image of God is percieved by Muslims when they do pray to God. Perhaps you are not aware of the prohibition within Islam of any kind of religious icons. We, shamefully, tend to take the injuction against engraven images very seriously, yet, do not take seriously the injuctions against, lying, cheating, decieving and the like. Shame on us.

Egalitarian Brahmin (a contradiction in terms?)

My post on the caste must have touched an exposed nerve - There is nowhere to hide! I want the truth about your caste system and it`s relationship with your religion! And I want the truth of the discrimination and degradation this system has brought upon tens of millions of human beings!

When will you and those who believe like you in the caste system, muster the courage to provide some honest answers?

Who do you think you are fooling? You are still the coward who does plagerize and attempts to mask his hostility towards Islam and Muslims.

Some of you Indians, who mouth the word secular, have no deep realization of the meaning of the word - To persons such as yourself it is only a convenient mask. Secularism never, learn, never, was meant to be anti religion, any religion. You idiots do not realize that this concept had it`s origins in the Christian protestant movement, how could it be anti-religion. Even after two hundred years persons such as yourself are still stuck in the the monkey see monkey do mentality. Shame on you!

The cowardice of wanting to suggest that caste are really sects (Shia, Sunni) - Still not the courage to discuss caste - now you back peddle -

nowhere to hide, you and people like yourself have a choice, live like mice, avoiding the light of reason on your caste system, which is a corner stone of your religion, or live like humans, let air and shed light on the caste system and it`s connection to Hinduism - When you can do that, you can come talk to the rest of the world about what a tolerant bunch you are. In the mean time, I charge you and all those who will not reject the caste system, with having institutionalized discrimination, with inhumanly holding in cruel servitude, millions of your co-religionists and fellow humans. Shame on you for even justifying it by trying to explain it.

btw, Sorry for the personal attack. See, tolerance. polemic? First try and under the meaning of the word before you abuse it.



PM

What exactly is your position? Are you suggesting that Christians pray to Idols? If you are, You are wrong!

Christians peasants are indebted to landlords in Punjab, not because of State policy or Islam.

That they are Christians is incidental to the fact that they are poor, uneducated and unwilling or unable to make choices other than the indebtedness to the landlord, are not Muslim peasants in the same ring of fire?. So how is that discrimination against Christian peasants?

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TAhmed:

Here, I have to intervene. After a long time, I feel that you have hit the nail right on the head. Dammit, great job :-)!

I can write a lot more on that, but I am glad that you realized what was going on. Remember, I told you a while back that you are simply wasting your time. Sometimes the effort is worth it and sometimes it ain`t.

Kind Regards.

[Standing Ovation]

tahmed321 #268
Personal insults? What took you so long, sleeping on the job perhaps?

Are all chowkwallahs cowards like yourself or someone will admit that nonMuslims cannot be considered equal to Muslims in the general religious tradition?

Apparently its OK to keep abusing Hindu culture as the root of Pakistani problems, but bringing up the perfections of Islam is off limits for the infidels(who ought to shut up and take the cr-p and the blame for your sorry selves).

Sadna #246 : ``if Islam says that a nonMuslim can never be the equal of a Muslim, ``

This begs the question: does Islam say what you says it says? The answer to the begged question is: No. This must be the umpteenth time I have reminded you to stop writing your bs about Islam or Pakistanis. Doesnt do any good. I think your head is made of wood and you are incapable of understanding this. Instead of wasting months and months on Chowk and learning nothing (as is true in your case), I think you should try to improve your IQ by having your village barber transplant your brain with that of a cockroach.

MastRam # 76

I wouldn’t want to get involved in conservatives vs. liberals argument here… I would also like to stay away from discussion of liberal democracies vs. illiberal democracies… These matters have been discussed to death on this site with very little progress towards identifying the real problems that we face in South Asia. Coming back to the questions you pose in your letter, let us not just talk about an economically “just” society… Let us move on and talk about an egalitarian society.

I believe that an in-egalitarian democracy is vulnerable to the alienation which arises from deep inequalities, and the sense of neglect and indifference that easily arises among abandoned minorities. This, I believe, is what is happening to Indian democracy right now. And that is why democratic societies cannot be and should not be too in-egalitarian.

In societies like the USA where a considerable chunk of the society is made up of people who, as you point out, regard equality and liberty as contradictory terms / aims, a balance is achieved by adopting egalitarian policies with redistributive effect (and to some extent also with redistributive intent). Yes, some turn out like Bill Gates and, and yet, some like the homeless guy on the pavement. But the opportunities are there for everybody to turn out like Bill Gates.

jntuece99 #78

[But I am afraid you have generalized a little too much about India.]

May be.

[But we are moving ahead. You might have noticed that there are only some pockets in India where this happens. Many other volatile places in India remained peaceful.]

I don’t disagree with you there. But in a truly democratic, secular society which India claims to be, incidents such as Gujrat massacre are totally unacceptable... The least Indian Government can do is sack Mr. L.K. Advani (we know he doesn’t have the decency to resign) for his involvement with Hindu extremists. That would be a good start if India really wants to move ahead.



shammi #104

[Fairdinkum, have you ever visited India?]

Yes, on more than one occasion… my last visit to India was relatively recently… about a year ago…



Romair #73
[Just wondering if you could give an update in what is going on in Pakistan. How has working in Pakistan been? Any changes from before.....]

Romair: Hi.

Well, prior to my current experience, I had never worked in Pakistan before… So, it was a bit shocking… but now I am beginning to get the hang of things i.e. work ethics, and work culture etc. Things are not as bad as they might appear to many of us in the west or even in the middle east. I wouldn’t advise anybody to invest their life savings in a tech. based business in Pakistan though.

The changes I have noticed:
- McDonalds, KFC, Subway, Pizza Hut everywhere… revolting stuff.
- generally speaking people don’t follow politics and power play with much enthusiasm…
- women in the cities wear sleeveless.
- They go out on dates.
- Every now and then, we have musical concerts in all major cities…
- women dance and so do men…it is shown on ptv and its no big deal for anybody.

What is more frequent than musical concerts, is massacre of people in mosques and targeted and random killings of shias… and that is no big deal either.

Urstruly,

I have run out of time and energy :(
Will write to u tomorrow.

re urstruly #120:

You can`t keep away your dirty hands even from charity organizations. Here is the breakdwon for the 3 organizations that you allege spend ``80%`` of their collections on administrative and collection expenses.

American red cross: 17%

United way : 9%

Unicef : 11%

For reference purposes checkout www.give.org

If ones preference is for particular charities be it Edhi or Burney`s trust thats fine. Making up figures is not.

For a more substansive discussion of charities worth giving and those to avoid, check out the current issue of Worth magazine(Nov 2001). I think the list is online too.

later

-sac

#: 242

MT

To Schmuck / Klutz

No religion has to descend to the levels of the Cola empire to quote numbers and say they are th best. That is akin to a Tobacco company claiming superiority based upon numbers.

If somebody has to stoop to numbers to justify their (sic) greatness , then you have lost my attention.Why should somebody care whether there is one god or there is a multitude of them. Where is the evidence. Live for here for now , there is no need to instill fear into people about sins, the hereafter etc. and then leave them with your ``singular choice``. ( eg. AmReeka wight be presented with a liberal version , SE ASia might see the traditional desert version that is reserved for babarians I suppose).

As far as numbers go , I am cynical as are many others, a considerable portion could be through reproduction and many might be led the `` * * * * * *`` way by many inducements.

So prove that the only God is the only god that exists etc. and then beat your chests with your pride.



Reply #: 242

MT

Damn i lost ur attention???How heart-breaking indeed!.MT i wasnt really trying to gain ur attention anyway.

why should`nt one call his/her religion the best??i wasnt being proud (though i am proud to be a muslim), i was just stating the fact.As many muslims will agree with me. Well maybe it doesnt matter to u if there is one God or not.... but it does to me and many other ``HUMAN BEINGS`` (not only muslims)

re. klutz #260

``Our country doesnt try to curb minorities rights.I believe they are treated fairly by the govt. ...We dont go around killing people of other religions!!Our muslim brothers dont go around raping women from other religions!!! No one really cares about what muslims are going through...``

There may be a grain of truth in that last sentence, but you have to ask yourself why this might be the case with Muslims and not with say Buddhists, Hindus, Jews or Confucists...

Also, a trip to the Punjab countryside where the workers (tied down by lifelong loans to feduals) are predominantly Christian should reveal you ignorance of the extent to which Christain women are routinely raped, without any chance of redress, as the local administration is firmly in the hands of the feudals themselves.

Alternatively, a copy of one of Amesty Internationals reports could serve to fill those gaps in your knowledge.

As for Muslims not persecuting Minorites, is the blasphemy law almost always not invoked against Christians and Quaidianis -- OR Shiahs, who in the eyes of the persecuters anyway, are not Muslim?

rgds,

PM

re. hobbyty #252

``PM...Convulted(sic) and pained.

By definition - the monotheist God cannot be an Idol - Idolatory is false not because of the presence of the Idol but by the worship of the Idol itself. Very many confuse the presence of the idol with the worship of the Idol itself, Christians do not worship the Idol of Christ.

So can Allah/God be an idol - by definition, No!``

Yes, but is anyone and everyone *claiming * to be worshipping Allah/God etc., merely by saying (i.e, using that word) and believing so necessarily *doing * so?

I guess I`m asking the same question as anarayan did in #250, in my own convoluted and pained way. :) Care to oblige with an answer?

P.S. If your concept of an idol is limited to those with a physical presence, don`t bother with an answer.

Mona.

I`m sorry I fogot to give you the name of the book,

``A brave New world.`` Huxley, Aldous

Later,

Aisha

Shanker,

What are you talking about? :$

Aisha

Reply #: 220

egalitarian_brahmin

``Is it really a coincidence that Islamic nations are known to treat their minorities with contempt?``

I was going through an article and it said

[Minorities continue to be threatened in India, whereas not a single non-Muslim was deliberately killed in Afghanistan. The Associated Press reported that in Kabul there is one old Jewish rabbi who stayed to protect a synagogue in the centre of the city. The Taliban did not prevent him from practicing his religion.]

Do u have any proof that minorities are being treated with contempt in islamic countries???Maybe u will be able to provide me with 1 or 2 examples only.Such news are almost non-existent.

``Muslim Minorities want self-determination because they can`t live under ``lesser`` people``

``Muslim Majorities indulge in ethnic cleansing because they can`t live with ``lesser`` people.``

ohh reallly???When a muslim is not given his/her right, when they cant even practice their religion, when they cant even get out of their house without fear... do u think theyd have time to think about being superior to others?I dont think so.ethnic cleansing indeed! Theres always been oppression on muslims by other religious parties.And u say we cant live as muslim minorities because we want to indulge in ethnic cleansing???Boy are dead wrong or what!

``Few Muslim states will grant full political and cultural rights to religious minorities. At the same time, they will not remain indifferent to the treatment of Muslim minorities elsewhere: in Russia, Indonesia, India/Kashmir, China, and the Balkans. Other religious denominations also will support beleaguered coreligionists.``

I believe this report is entirely out of place.Our country doesnt try to curb minorities rights.I believe they are treated fairly by the govt.Why is it that america and other countries raise cry about what muslim countries ``MIGHT`` supposedly do in the near future and not do anything about how muslim minorities are being treated????We dont go around killing people of other religions!!Our muslim brothers dont go around raping women from other religions!!!!No one really cares about what muslims are going through...and u come and paste me this stupid report!!!... i dont even give a damn what these people say... They have this ideological power... they let everyone think that they dont take sides and are letting everyone know what the truth is... Truth my FOOT!!!its better to call them false propagandas!

Reply #: 224

AAmir

Ohh so the whole world knows who i am???Damn and i thought i was being very discreet.btw who am i?

``there would be need for another Forum like this just to keep up with the APOLOGIES!!!``

Yep thats really true.. i just apologized for one reason and one reason only (i still believe islam is the best and i will never tire of talking abt it)... in islam we are taught not to disrespect any religion or their God.So i thought i had done that .. and only because of that i was apologizing.Dont worry aamir bhaijaan :P i dont have a sensitive skin... ill try not to apologize again hehe :)

Reply #: 225

PM

``So you have a ``direct`` relationship with ``your`` Allah. How is that any better or any worse than an interceded one, other than for the reason that your Mommy told you so? ``

Aeisha u can butt in anytime u want :)

I believe what Aeisha said in her post #: 231,#:252 is very true indeed.If we go to a priest we will feel worthwhile infront of ALlah.. we will feel that only pious ppl like priests will be forgiven and only if we contact Allah through them and ask them to pray for us and ask for forgiveness on our behalf we will then be forgiven.

instead in islam we are equal infront of Allah.A sinner can ask for Allah`s forgiveness himself just like a religious person. Everything will be between them.

i believe u are very wrong about Allah being an idol.hobbyty`s post #: 232 clearly points that out.

You are right...many religions believe in ``one great ultimate``.I didnot say im superior just because i believe in One GOD.... as u pointed out christians/jews ... and all kinds of religions believe in One GOD....what i said was that yes our main belief is that there is One God...but what i meant was that islam is the complete code of life. Maybe not in ur eyes but it is in mine.

veeresh #91 By sending in one post after another trying to ``defend`` the morally impoverished and delusional nature of earlier posts, I suggest you stop for a few hours this writing. Try instead to recharge your batteries and to renew your impoverished stock of good judgement and to get rid of your delusions.

Here are excerpts from a column -- by a gutsy Muslim woman -- who obviously has no itentions to stay home and roll CHAPAATEES for her husband -- and is not afraid to take on the ``fearsome`` Generals -- her clarion call:



`Generals,return to the barracks`

BENAZIR BHUTTO

History casts its long shadow over Pakistan and its neighbour Afghanistan. The failure to reach a political settlement to the extradition of al Qaeda suspects saw the dark clouds of war descend on the region. The events of September 11 changed the calculus of politics. B-52 bombers zoomed across the sky dropping their lethal load on a country that knew too much war but was unable to make peace.

A public frenzy was whipped up in Pakistan. Many young people were motivated to donate their life savings or send their young sons off to a war ``for Islam``. They were led to believe that victory would be theirs ``once the ground assault began``.

Intoxicated by the idea of triumphing over a super-power, the misguided youth rushed to the camps of charlatans who promised them victory. The battle lines were drawn. Yet, most knew the outcome. Even as Islamabad watched the young men rush off to the arid plains of Afghanistan to defend the Taliban, it was discussing a post Taliban Afghan government.

The Taliban were doomed to military defeat at the hands of a superior military force. The young men who went to fight were abandoned. The fighting started and the Afghan militias melted into the villages. The Arab fighter, without a village to return to, fought to death or took to the mountain caves. The Pakistani, new to the terrain, had nowhere to go. He was captured, brutally beaten or killed. The Pakistani leaders, who provoked them into the fight, were conveniently under ``house arrest``.

As the Northern Alliance advanced, the bodies of unclaimed dead Pakistanis littered the landscape. They were orphaned. None had stopped them from going. None came forward to accept their dead bodies and give them a decent burial. They were abandoned. No one knows what happen!!

Defeat has its own bitter after taste. The earlier bravado of victory in the ground war and the noisy demonstrations for fighting against the infidel ended. A dark silence descended. Few asked for accountability of those who provoked young men into siding with the Taliban that resulted in blood shed. Few wondered about the mothers who lost their sons or the young widows or orphans. The second Afghan war is a double tragedy for the Muslim world. It is a war that never should have happened. Yet, in the noisy Maddrassas set up under General Zia and his intelligence, that second war took its roots bringing in its wake death, destruction and shame.

The Taliban got nothing in their determination to reject a political solution. Voices that once defended them are now silenced. Victory has a thousand fathers and defeat is an orphan. Yet those who supported the Taliban in their irrational defiance bear a moral and political responsibility for the events that took place. They owe an explanation to the thousands of Pakistanis encouraged to join an unnecessary war without a chance of victory.

The Taliban war brought world attention to Pakistan. The sun rose from behind clouds to shine on Islamabad`s rulers. The sun is bright but the clouds are still there.

The world focus is on terrorism. Its shortsigted for the military regime to see the present world sympathy as a solution to the problems of Pakistan.

The largesse of the world community during the Zia era failed to solve the internal crisis. Its unlikely that largesse today can be any different.



It is naive to assume that the billions of aid dollars flowing into Kabul will go to Pakistani contractors. The Establishment`s Taliban fixated policy alienated the Northern Alliance as well as many Pashtuns. There is little love lost for Islamabad in Kabul. Having put all their eggs in one basket, the military regime was forced to plead with the American President for crumbs in the power sharing formula for a post Taliban Kabul.

The heady days of US support in September led the military regime to warn India to ``lay off``. But the war ended too quickly for Islamabad. General Dostum in the North, rather than General Musharaf in the south, became the catalyst to force the Taliban retreat.

Islamabad still remains fixated with external props. In so doing, it neglects the internal realities. Even as the West helps fill Islamabad`s empty coffers, the economic recession continues. Capital lacks confidence in a military dictatorship governing a country with unstable borders in the North and the east and an uncertain direction.

Trade is the key to economic salvation yet it is a key lost in the Maddrassas of Pakistan. Here the men learn to fire guns instead of learning to manage businesses, lives or society.

Yet the lesson of the twentieth century is the reality of economic power. Releasing economic power requires pre-requisites that include freedom, rule of law, deregulation and open competition.

Economic interests play a critical role in building peaceful relations for trading parties. Trading relations increase the joint economic welfare of trading partners.

The ``national interest`` has become the prerogative of the Establishment. Therefore debate is silenced and its forums, such as the Parliament, redundant. Those who challenge the so called ``national interest`` are termed traitors who should be stripped of their citizenship. The pursuit of such intolerant policies breeds a culture of intolerance. Yet that culture of intolerance must be challenged if Pakistan is to become a vibrant state standing on its own inherent strengths. The time for policies of brinksmanship, calculated to bring in external props, needs to stop.

In modern management students are taught that the customer is always right. In modern state craft, the realisation is still to come that the voter is always right. The determination of some Generals to reject the view of the voter makes them part of the problem.

Amazingly, several top military leaders of Pakistan made disastrously wrong predictions on military matters. In 1990, some of the Generals predicted that Iraq would turn into America`s Vietnam. This time round, they predicted that Americans would be caught by the Taliban when the ground war started. A few years back, they predicted that the Kargil adventure would bring the country glory.

The political leadership, untrained in military matters, was correct in warning the people that a superior military force would triumph over an inferior military force. This contrast between the predictions of some leading Generals and the political leadership on the three key issues of the Kuwait occupation in 1990, the Kargil fighting in 1999 and the Kabul war 2001 are clear evidence of the need for political direction in a given country. History notes that War is too serious a business to be left Generals.

ylh #249

SHAME! SHAME ! SHAME !

You donot read your own newspapers.
http://www.dawn.com/2001/07/03/top1.htm

``...In Dir and Malkand districts, Tehrik Nifaz-i-Shariat Muhammadi did not allow women to cast their votes. In Dir where 137,000 women voters were registered, not a single woman was permitted to exercise the right of franchise....``


Where does Hindu culture come in? How could such a thing happen? Where were all the Islamic scholars and activists who are supposed to defend Islam`s unique rights for women??

And what about this letter, is this a serious enough situation for young chowk Pakistanis to forget bashing Gandhi and Hindu culture and get on with the real job?

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/070701/editor/let1.htm
The tension between militant religious groups and NGOs has once again boiled over into confrontation in the NWFP. At the centre of the latest storm is a network of community-run girls` schools set up by Khawenda Khor, a local welfare organization. 
Khawenda Khor works with village communities to set up schools in areas where there is a dearth of girls` schools. A number of religious groups have threatened to burn down all such schools in the province if the NGO schools in Karak district are not closed down. Earlier, the organization`s schools in Dir were targeted by extremists who claim the schools are encouraging obscenity. This is preposterous. Banning education for women is reprehensible, and against the spirit of the religion these groups profess to propagate. 
Islam in no way discourages, far less prohibits, women`s education. Religion is being used as a cover for tribal customs and notions. The provincial authorities, fearful of provoking a law and order situation, have not heeded requests for security by the terrified staff and students of the schools, which remain shut, nor acted to restrain those openly threatening violence. 
Are extremist organizations above the law? Are they free to issue inflammatory statements and fatwas, and even death threats, against anyone disagreeing with their interpretation of Islam? From NGOs to women voters, cable operators, dissenting students and those espousing a weapon-free society, the militants are targeting a widening cross-section of the NWFP population. The outcome of pursuing the current policy of appeasement could well be a steady descent into anarchy.-SHAUKAT KHAN, USA,via e-mail, July 3. 


Is a nonMuslim equal to a Muslim or not? You say he should be, how many chowkwallahs discussing on this board, the perfection of Islam as revealed 1400 years ago, accept that?

Bharatiya musalman/ylh/sarwari?Aisha?-whatever

What is going on? Do you guys know each other (as well as the author)?. Obviously, you are throwing very personal barbs at each other.

Hey, I got no problems that you guys are doing it in this very public forum. In fact, I find it very amusing:) However, if you want your back & forth barbs to be read by all of us, then you better spill out some background info.

I`m not condoning what the Indian muslim said. It seems to me, ylh, that you are suggesting that he is an idiot & thats why he was rejected by the lady/ or he`s trashing Pakistan because `` the unattainable Pakistani grapes are sour``.

I`m warning you---if you want this tamasha to go on in Chowk, you better give us the... er Full Monty:)

ENQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW!

ylh,

{{{my personal reason for stopping that Indian from raising his flag at the `Junoon` concert... because Indians have a funny habit of claiming anything good that comes out of Pakistan as `Indian` .... Nusrat Fateh Ali... Junoon .. etc.}}}

Wow! If the Indians you`ve come across claim that Junoon & Nusrat are Indian, then they are real idiots. I guess Indians at Rutgers are downright wierd. I dont find anything ``funny`` in that habit.

I`m not interested in either Indian or Pakistani music. Even then, I know that these people are Pakistani. How do I know that? Because I read Indian newspapers ocassionally. Never have I come across any Indian who claimed these people were Indian. In fact, I`ve read 100s of 1000s of Indians filled the theaters eagerly to listen to these performers from Pakistan, not to mention buying their CDs.

I hope you dont mind if Indians love to listen Pakistani performers! I also hope that their CDs & cassettes that Indians buy, give them the financial royalties that they deserve. Despite the fact that I dont think the Indian film industry gets a single paisa from the 100s of thousands of Pakistanis who eagerly watch pirated Indian films--no matter how lousy they are.

I have a few questions re your flamboyant statement of slapping that Indian at the Junoon concert for having the balls to wave the Indian flag.

1)You talked at that person directly, as if that Indian is a visitor at Chowk. Is he? If he is, then please identify him because I`d really like to know from him, why he was waving the Indian flag?

If your answer to this question is ``YES``, then please disregard the next question/observation. But then I`d really have a few questions to ask that individual.

2) If you were just making a statement that you want everybody on Chowk to know what a tough guy you are; & what lenghts you would go to defend your national pride--then I`m afraid that you have the maturity & mentality of a high school kid.

It doesnt take a huge feat of courage to slap an Indian among a sea of Pakistani fans.

But let me give you the benefit of the doubt. I`m assuming BEFORE you slapped that guy, you asked him why he`s waving the Indian flag? And I`m assuming he told you ``because Junoon is Indian, not Pakistani``.

If my assumptions are correct , then I can empathise why you slapped him. Mind you I`m not condoning your slapping him. A more mature response would have probably been shrugging your shoulder & saying `` that kind of idiotic bigotry is your problem, Indian, not mine``.

On the other hand, if my assumptions are wrong , & you are making an ``ass out of you & me``--please let me know; because I have a thing or two to say to you.

Lastly, may I join hands with you when you say ``MAY PAKISTAN LIVE FOREVER!!``? However, may I make a humble request? you`ve made your point about Pakistan`s immortality & your pride for your country & religion(about half a billion times, no less). Your point is well taken (again, about half a billion times) & you have EVERY RIGHT to feel that way (again, I will say that repeatedly about half a billion times). Its ETCHED in our brains---more than you think.

We Indians are`nt as stupid as we sometimes sound. Anybody ,with even half a brain, knows that if Pakistan goes down the tubes, she will pull down India with her. Just because a few idiot Indians put down Pakistan & Islam, doesnt mean theyre right or their predictions will come true.

Ahem , that goes ditto for Pakistani idiots..

Shankar

Totally uncalled for! A diatribe! Perhaps you have been holding that in for too long.

A couple of definitions (from a holier than thou ass//hole): Articles of FAITH

Centrality of Islam is the Quran!

Quran is the revealed word of GOD!

FAITH is not amenable to scientific or logical inspection, it is intuitive, non-scientific.

Please consider the meanings and implications of the word FAITH

If God is perfect, can his revealed word be otherwise? Can it be amenable to change?

You are mixing apples and oranges: The word of God is beyond concepts of eternal -

That Muslims are sinners, flawed, and fall short of the ideal but yet must struggle to live up to the teachings of Islam is a given. I acknowledge the behaviour of some Muslims in Pakistan has been very un-Muslim, I acknowledge that the teachings and interpretations of some ``scholars`` is contrary to, and in many cases highly intolerant of other Muslims and non-Muslims. This cannot mean that Islam itself promotes such.

And is this then enough for good numbers of Indian persons to justify their their hostility towards Islam?

You seem to want to suggest there is a similarity, a kind of parity in the structure of Hinduism and Islam - but there isn`t. These faiths are structured differently, view the world and the eternal differently and operate differently. Consider how Redemption, forgiveness, grace/Karam operate.

Again, if Caste is OK by Hindus, in no way can it be OK by Muslims and Christians. It is the antithesis of those teachings. That outlawing it is not any kind of solution - it is not a creation of law. To say that we have outlawed it is but a copout! By outlawing it, what is prevented is the discussion of it`s merit, it`s origins and questions about the constructs of Hinduism and I suggest to you that this is as big a problem as the caste system itself.

From one ass//hole to another:- please consider!

You are turning this into a Hindu verses Muslim, Pakistani versus India debate. That`s a shame, because you know very well, that a debate about caste and Hindu constructs is long overdue and if fears can be set aside, only good will come from it. Moreover, Hinduism is amenabale to such debate. Ignorance is the enemy, the reward is millions of souls set free.

PM

Convulted and pained.

By definition - the monotheist God cannot be an Idol - Idolatory is false not because of the presence of the Idol but by the worship of the Idol itself. Very many confuse the presence of the idol with the worship of the Idol itself, Christians do not worship the Idol of Christ.

So can Allah/God be an idol - by definition, No!

Ylh,

``Islam protected its minorities in a time when other creeds killed off those who practised a faith unlike their own.``

This is really a outstanding discovery. Really? What happenned to the idol worshippers in Arabia?

What happened to the parsis in Iran during the onslaught of Islam.

``All great things are evolutionary. 1400 years ago, Non Muslims had the protected status... today through evolution in Islamic Thought, they should be equal citizen.``

Is this your personal opinion(I mean they should be equal citizen?) or something has been changed in the Quran, For example see the quotes below.

``Also Mohommed has word from god ,Allah that it is still better to be a sinfull muslim ,than a pious non believer .You can plead for a muslim but even mohommed cannot plead for non muslims.``

Do you believe such outdated verses in Quran be repealed and made void.

hobbyty,

IDOLS OF MATTER AND IDOLS OF MIND

You have correctly classified images and icons as false Gods, imposters. Why not go further?

Take a word, say ROSE. As you say it, the image of a rose appears instantly in your mind. Is that mental image real? You`ll agree, its not.

Now take the word GOD. You`ll no doubt agree you have no ACTUAL idea what a GOD looks like. But yet that word instantly evokes on image in your mind - this time based on your conditioning as a muslim. And that is what you pray to.

Are you saying this mental-image is on a `higher` level than an idol-image or icon-image ???

regards,

Sadna

SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!

THIS IS AN ABSOLUTE OUT AND OUT LIE:

`And not a single NWFP woman was allowed to cast her vote, reportedly, in the recent LB elections : whether this was due to Hindu culture or Islamic culture or was it due to the caste system?`

When did this happen? Another one of your media propaganda? Please refrain from propagating lies. I can assure you that women in NWFP voted in the LB elections. There was one district where women were refrained from voting and that too was done without the consent of the Government. Kindly stop this propaganda now! Two of my aunts have won the local body elections! Do you people forget Benazir Bhutto, was she not the Prime Minister of Pakistan? And didnt the religious parties support Fatima Jinnah`s bid for Presidency? What the hell are you talking about anyway? Sadna, the way you succumb to the devices of Propaganda shows a mischievious machiavellian streak which allows you to even lie in order to get your point proven!

`A question often asked on chowk and this board: if Islam says that a nonMuslim can never be the equal of a Muslim, how can such an Islam be called egalitarian?`

Islam protected its minorities in a time when other creeds killed off those who practised a faith unlike their own. All great things are evolutionary. 1400 years ago, Non Muslims had the protected status... today through evolution in Islamic THought, they should be equal citizen.

Thomas Jefferson in his `Notes on Virginia 1785` talked of the `inherent inferiority of the black race`. Does it mean that the ideals that he espoused and which form the egalitarian basis of the US constitution are invalid? Does the US not derive its spirit from Jeffersonian ideals eventhough today Jefferson would be regarded as the worst racist alive had he continued to espouse the same ideas of White race supremacy. But does it render the spirit of his ideals wrong? Indeed his ideals are the basis for equality for all races, all creeds, all faiths in the US. United States early Franchise was limited to Propertied Free White men... does it undo the spirit of the American Revolution? The declaration of Independence calls the Red Indians `Savages`... does that mean the declaration of Independence is oppressive?



LONG LIVE PAKISTAN!

Mahesh G

Mahesh, are you seriously suggesting that Hindus worship Idols? If Yes, then what is the argument? and if No, then, what`s the argument?

Were there to be a serious debate within Hinduism about the caste system - do you really think, it would be a pervaisive as it is?

Is it not proper to debate the morality and the ethics of using the system of caste as a tool to hold in servitude the minds and bodies of millions of persons?

DO Muslims and Christians, who have a different conception of the human souls relationship to it` creator, and of redemption, salvation, the role of forgiveness, compassion and the grace or karam of God, not finding converts from among the very same castes?

Are we wrong in condemning it as inhuman and intolerant?

Will you not agree that the system of caste has not been promulgated as law but as an essential article of faith?

Do you not agree that as an article of faith and it`s presence for over two thousand years, suggest that legal remedies are but obfuscation? Did Indians promulgate a law to create Hinduism or caste system?

I do not know how to go about undoing the caste system, but I suggest that greater debate on how base, inhuman and vile is this temporal and eternal system of discrimination, is what is required. Can a person claim that the human soul is devine and then subject the repository of that soul to the most foul servitudes, not just within one life time? Can one, claim love and tolerance towards others and simultaneously suggest that certain persons are born to serve others? That the difference between them and others is such that they may not be touched? that only certain vocations remain open to them and not all?

If the system of caste can be said to be a vedic creation, perhaps vedic teachings should also be used to discredit it in the minds of adherents.

Non-Hinidus cannot effect the dissolution of the system of caste in Hinduism. Only Hindus can and should.

My posts are to point out what I percieve as unfair, self righteous, bigotry directed towards Islam and Muslims and my perception of the caste system as evil incarnate. It is not the case that one or two Indians have shown Ignorance, but rather a good number mask their aversion and hostility towards Islam by seeking to justify their ignorance by taking refuge in and poluting secularism. Narrowly defining secularism as anti Islamism - a disservice to secularism and a show of ignorance. They claim that Islam lays too much emphasis on the ummah and not the brotherhood of all men, if this were true, would there be Muslims through out the world? Is it not anti Islamic and intolerant, to demonstrate hostility towards notions and calls for unity among Muslims? If within Hinduism, ideology such as the birth and existence of ten of millions of persons soley for the purpose of serving those in higher castes are not overcome, and if this discrimination, as an article of faith, carries on, would one not be concerned about how non-Hindus would fare? If Hindus as an article of faith are required to treat their coreligionists with disdain and callousness - can claims of tolerance towards non-Hindus be valid?

``Also Mohommed has word from god ,Allah that it is still better to be a sinfull muslim ,than a pious non believer .You can plead for a muslim but even mohommed cannot plead for non muslims.``

And this is the perfect religion you espouse?

A muslim who is drunkard, rapist, killer is any day better than pious person who doesn`t believe in Islam? And you claim this as the religion of equality? And these are the verses on which this article author`s ``secular`` pakistan is based upon? And India should be following the glorious example of this kind of ``Secular`` Sharia based on the ``Complete`` religion.

And what the heck is this, today we have perfected the religion? How many attempts did god make to ``perfect`` this religion? His trial runs with Judaism and Christianity were not perfect, so we have the ``Perfect/Complete`` religion in Islam? Does it mean this god is incompetent?

Coming back to the question of equality, Should Islam whose main prophet had several slaves, be talking about it? And for those who will quote those verses about manumission, question is why not ban slavery in the first place? The god through the prophet of yours didn`t allow the idol worship in mecca and madina( and elsewhere in the Darul-islam he could have just as well said in one of his pristine verses(Easy to understood accroding to Quran itself) that Slavery is abolised. But no,

he has other pearls of wisdom to give on whether the captured people(POW/Slaves) can be F *Cked.Off-course they can be in Islam or am I wrong? As usual I am ready to corrected, if any info is misleading.

Should Islam whose main prophet, kills a woman`s father and husband and then does the usual thing i.e.,marry her and claims the perks that go with it(or did he claim the perk before he married her?),be talking equality especially Equality for Women? Anyways shouldn`t the most beautiful women be in the booty of the prophet? Maybe thats besides the point, but that surely leaves his bodygaurds/followers on their toes the whole night, while he is doing the sacred deed of consumating his booty.. err.. his Wife?

Anyways` How can the highway robbery be justified? Offcourse with the help of god.

Doesn`t the idol worshippers have any rights? Or is it the sacred duty of the Pure religion/Complete religion`s followers to massacre them wehere ever they see them(StuBaker please do the needful by Quoting the correct verse)? Is this also part of the ``Secular`` government duties of this Tony, the italian American muslim?

A question often asked on chowk and this board: if Islam says that a nonMuslim can never be the equal of a Muslim, how can such an Islam be called egalitarian?

Can anyone quote where is there a similar fundamental and necessary requirement wrt caste discrimination in `Hindu` philosophy or belief which is `binding` on Hindus?

And not a single NWFP woman was allowed to caste her vote, reportedly, in the recent LB elections : whether this was due to Hindu culture or Islamic culture or was it due to the caste system?

Is it Islamic culture or Hindu culture not to even know that NWFP women couldnot cast their votes due to threats from Islamic organisations?

Hi Mona.

I know what you mean. You should read

[``Stability,`` said the Controller, ``stability. No civilization without social stability. No social stability without individual stability.`` His voice was a trumpet.]

Another favourate part...

[``He`s so ugly!`` said Fanny.

``But I rather like his looks.``

``And then so small.`` Fanny made a grimace; smallness was so horribly and typically low-caste.

``I think that`s rather sweet,`` said Lenina. ``One feels one would like to pet him. You know. Like a cat.``

Fanny was shocked. ``They say somebody made a mistake when he was still in the bottle–thought he was a Gamma and put alcohol into his blood-surrogate. That`s why he`s so stunted.``

``What nonsense!`` Lenina was indignant.

``Sleep teaching was actually prohibited in England. There was something called liberalism. Parliament, if you know what that was, passed a law against it. The records survive. Speeches about liberty of the subject. Liberty to be inefficient and miserable. Freedom to be a round peg in a square hole.``

``But, my dear chap, you`re welcome, I assure you. You`re welcome.`` Henry Foster patted the Assistant Predestinator on the shoulder. ``Every one belongs to every one else, after all.``

One hundred repetitions three nights a week for four years, thought Bernard Marx, who was a specialist on hypnopædia. Sixty-two thousand four hundred repetitions make one truth. Idiots!

``Or the Caste System. Constantly proposed, constantly rejected. There was something called democracy. As though men were more than physico-chemically equal.``

``Well, all I can say is that I`m going to accept his invitation.``

Bernard hated them, hated them. But they were two, they were large, they were strong. ]



In this book, everyone is made for everyone else, but everyone is not equal to everyone else, the Alpha`s are the higher castes and the betas the less higher and the Gammas are the lowest: kind of mutants.

None of these groups wanted to be anyone else, and his was done through conditioning. Somehow, it was an insightful experience and I could relate to the culture of the Subcontinent, the society that can trace its roots to stratification as a norm.

YOu said, ``Why I make comment on Hindu bashing is that many of the facts are not confirmed before making specific remarks. Just doing minor and meeting few people one does not become an expert. One has to live through or along with it to know what exactilly goes on.``

True!

...Got to run,

later

Aisha

Bhartiya Musalman 112

Before I can begin to comment on the excrement that you have splashed on this board, I must say, that every time I think we cant go any lower, we hit a new low. Your entry on chowk will indeed be classified as the lowest of the low chowk has ever witnessed.

It is my belief in humanity that makes me believe that no one, and I repeat no one can be as stupid as to make comments like the one you made in 112. Hence it is only logical to believe that you are going through a severe trauma of some sort to your overinflated ego.

It doesnot serve to assume. Anthony Aschettino and myself, we dont frequent the mosque, and secondly bigoted as Mosque Mullahs maybe, they dont bash Hinduism in the Mosques, though that maybe the case with Mosques in India. Secondly we are not wahabis. My mother is a shia for example... and Anthony`s parents are devout catholics. I am a simple Muslim, and a Pakistani first second and last.

I thank you for your invitation to join your imaginary organization. However, I cannot accept your invitation, because I dont have time to play with little kids.

Finally you say ``` I`ll treat you as a brother if you accept the Prophet (PBUH) and Allah)``. How ridiculous is that? as ridiculous as the caste system.``

On my board you wrote (Post 367)

`Firstly, you are my Bhai as I am a devout Muslim and believe in the Brotherhood of Islam.`

Kindly explain this disparity. Now see the problem you have posed? On one hand you are using `brotherhood of Islam` to which I said that I renounce the brotherhood of Islam... on the other hand you are talking of how ridiculous that concept is... Which one is it?

It is increasingly clear to me that you are a product of the confused Indian Educational system which confuses people by muddling the definitions of secular and multicultural.

So, your Ami (mata ji) proposed to Aisha on your behalf and she said no! Why do you have to take it out on Pakistan? Did it occur to you that it might be because you demonstrate very little ability to be mature, or sensible? And now you are forming imaginary organizations (Deen e Ilahi Again) to get back at her?

-YLH

PAKISTAN WILL LIVE ON TILL ETERNITY!

Sarwari 222 & 223,

Great posts.... very enlightening ... see how better it is when you post like this instead of threatening to bomb India... by making those threats you divert attention from your great intellectual capacity!

I wouldnt worry about Upman, ... he and Bhartiya Musalman are from the same creed... they both came in declaring that all Pakistanis are shallow, and lack in `intellectual rigor` but over the course of time both expose their ignorance, arrogance, lack of objective knowledge, and their bigoted attitude towards Pakistan.

This attitude of arrogance, ignorance, and bigotry seems to be all pervasive in the people towards are east. It is a miracle that people like Eklavya, Dostmittar, Veeresh, Shammi, etc exist in India.

Long Live Pakistan

To Schmuck / Klutz

No religion has to descend to the levels of the Cola empire to quote numbers and say they are th best. That is akin to a Tobacco company claiming superiority based upon numbers.

If somebody has to stoop to numbers to justify their (sic) greatness , then you have lost my attention.Why should somebody care whether there is one god or there is a multitude of them. Where is the evidence. Live for here for now , there is no need to instill fear into people about sins, the hereafter etc. and then leave them with your ``singular choice``. ( eg. AmReeka wight be presented with a liberal version , SE ASia might see the traditional desert version that is reserved for babarians I suppose).

As far as numbers go , I am cynical as are many others, a considerable portion could be through reproduction and many might be led the `` * * * * * *`` way by many inducements.

So prove that the only God is the only god that exists etc. and then beat your chests with your pride.

Intellectual Dishonesty...

Anyone who compares the division of Germany to Pakistan India division... is not only intellectually dishonest, but rabidly crazy!

Old `Hinduvtist` dreams die hard ! Still where were you when Jinnah had accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan in 1946?

Let me state for the record!... we will not agree to any such arrangement with India... we gave you a chance in 1946, you should have taken it. Now Pakistan exists... and Pakistan will exist till eternity!

Advani suggests confederation

NEW DELHI July 7: In a significant remark in the run up to the Musharraf-Vajpayee summit, Union Home Minister L.K.

Advani has suggested the formation of a Confederation of South Asian states, including India and Pakistan.

``I am confident that Vajpayee`s initiative will create a conducive atmosphere in the direction of the formation of a

Confederation of India, Pakistan, Burma, Sri Lanka and Nepal in the days ahead,`` Advani added.

He said the world was witnessing sweeping changes and arch rivals such as the two German republics have now reunited,

reports PTI.

The Sangh Parivar, to which the ruling BJP belongs, had originally propounded the concept of `Akhand Bharat` or united

India, which comprises the whole of South Asia, including Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Advani, however, said he disagreed with the Western perception of Kashmir as a dispute between India and Pakistan. ``We

do not see Kashmir in the context of Pakistan. For us, it is inseparably linked to India`s unity,`` he said.

Advani said the concept of self-determination espoused by separatist groups would prove detrimental more to the interests

of Pakistan as it had diverse ethnic and linguistic groups within its boundaries.-NNI

re. hobbyty #232:

``Do any of these fit the monotheist tradition`s description of God? Please reconsider.``

hobbyty, let me rehash the gist of my post (#225) to klutz:

Any THING can be turned into an idol, including concepts, and even if we pin attritbutes such as `unknowable, inscrutable` etc. to those concepts. They are no different from visual representations (and sometiems worse) IF THERE IS NO CONNECTION TO ONE`S PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AT A DEEPLY PERSONAL LEVEL. Needless to say, even if the connection exists, the virute in faith is not to be taken for granted. (Wasn`t the faith of fascist German, for wxapmle, really bereft of idols?)

For these reasons, I think that while it is wholly desireable to strive for personal religious enlightenment/finding God etc., criticizing others` metaphysics or glorifying in numerolgoy is both ignorant and self-defeating.

Let me repeat a passage of my #225, emphasis added this time:

``...perhaps you will give some more thought to these matters before you feel feel that sense of superiority associated with the number One, or the IDOLIZED form of the REALITY TO WHICH Allah/God/Baghwan/Yahweh POINT.``

In the end, the reality is a wholly personal experience.

rgds,

PM

To all: apologies for the typos.. my dyslexia seems to be blooming with the daisies.

PM,

I just got the chance to read your post... my personal reason for stopping that Indian from raising his flag at the `Junoon` concert... because Indians have a funny habit of claiming anything good that comes out of Pakistan as `Indian` .... Nusrat Fateh Ali... Junoon .. etc.

No it would not be right if I ripped off an Indian flag in an Indian concert because that would show `hatred` ... I always stand up for the Indian National Anthem at the Indian functions.... but this is a Pakistani Band, which should not be claimed as Indian by India...

God bless the Junoon, they always sing `Jazba Junoon` (the Pakistan Song) whether they are in NYC, LA or New Dehli!

Long Live Pakistan!

Monaseghal to Bhartiya Musalman:

`Your remark related to a muslim convert from lower caste is most uncalled for.`

YLH says : Caste Ideology is all pervasive (in the Indian Union) despite secularism(?), Democracy(?), Islam(?)... I believe that is the point of this article! You have to fix the basic societal structure.... harping an indigenous definition of secularism and democracy in schools is not going to cut it.

tahmed,

I am glad you liked it :). I was reading your post to Sarwari on the other board in which you spread pearls of idealism (which exist outside the gandhian framework also)... but let me say this.. in any marriage, there has to be compatibility which breeds admiration and love.

Compatibility comes with the oneness of mission, and hence I personally I would like Sarwari marry any Pakistani regardless of religion race caste or creed as long as their mission is one with mine, ie Progressive Modern Pakistan as one of the greatest nations on earth.

Bhartiya Musalman

Dont beat yourself so much.... there is a long list of rejected Indian Muslim Suitors from what I understand when it comes to Aisha Sarwari. Even if you had not been uneducated, biogted, fundamentalist, confused, unsophisticated, illiterate and Ugly like you are , your mission (creation of a pan islamic khilafat and the greater state of India) can never be same as Aisha`s whose goal from what I know is a modern Progressive strong and Sovereign Pakistan.

Waisay, you keep harping about Pakistan being a failed state... when educated intellectuals say it there are reasons to it? Why are you saying it? Because your ami abu (pita ji mata ji) said it? You keep talking of a common South Asian Muslim culture and then you declare two nation theory is false ... when culture was the basic premise of TNT.

So tell me why should Pakistan be dissolved?

1) Is it the Economy? Because till the 1990s we outperformed India, and until recently atleast we had a greater GDP per capita than India... If we are in a bad patch for 10 years, my training in Economics tells me that its not that big of a deal because did they dissolve US in the great depression when US was performing much worse than Pakistan? Latin American Countries have been in much worse crisis than Pakistan for decades with spiralling super duper inflations.... I havent heard of Mexico, or Argentina, or Chile, or Equador being dissolved? Mexico even has US next to it.... which is much more developed than India can ever be.

2) Is it the poverty? Because one visit will show you that Pakistan does not have slums like Calcutta... even in the heaviest populated city like Karachi which stands with in top 15 in the world. If Pakistan was a failed state how did Karachi a fishertown of 55 000 become a metropolitan of 15 million people in just 53 years? How did Lahore gets so developed? How did Pakistanis create a city out of scratch which is one of the most beautiful cities in the world ? Islamabad? ( and on a side noteHow come atleast one of the Pakistan`s airports, Quaid e Azam International Karachi, is voted as one of the most beautiful in the world?)

3) Is it the ethnic tension ? Because whereas Pakistan has at most 3 semi active ethnic movements, India has 17 indigenous independence Movements from what I know, and I can atleast name 5 different myself, but you wont hear from Yasser Hamdani that India should be dissolved... because I simply dont care.

4) Is it because Pakistan cant keep up with India`s defence expenditure, and Pakistan cant make ICBMs, well you`ve got me on that one ... but I hardly doubt Pakistan would be dissolved for that reason or many sane Indians (unlike yourself) would want it dissolved for that reason.

5) Is it because you are a confused Pan-Islamist Indian Muslim who wants to devise stupid plans to dissolve Pakistan just so that you can face your rejection from Aisha Sarwari, ... well dream on, because Pakistan will go on because it is a nation and it will live as a nation and die as a nation.

Long Live Pakistan .. Pakistan will live on till eternity INSHALLAH!

And to borrow from Ataturk`s famous Turk Nationalist statement ... `Lucky are those who can call themselves Pakistanis`.

Upman,

Does `Bhartiya Musalman` have the `intellectual rigor` that I lack? Because if it is, then I am glad that I lack such `intellectual rigor` (Read bigoted ignorance).

Long Live Pakistan

Hobbytv,

{{Indeed it is amazing that the same Indians who claim that Islam is intolerant and at war with the world, are also, in the lead to be intolerant towards Islam.}}

Listen, Mr Holier-than-thou pal, we hindus can say the same thing about some of the muslim posts on this thread. If Islam claims that their followers should respect all religions, how come some of the Islamic stalwarts on Chowk are intolerant to other religions?

Havent you champions of Allah insulted Hindus & Christians here?! You look down upon idol worship of hindus & the ``booze, song & dance`` of Christians. You seem absolutely oblivious to such statements (& many more) that have cropped up, not just on this thread , but for the last several years. I`m not saying we hindus are respectful to muslims---NOT AT ALL, unfortunately. But dont tell me you muslims or Pakistanis are these very courteous, respectful & civil posters who attack ONLY when provoked.

Seems to me ,in Pakistan, when hinduism or India is insulted, nobody ever challenges those views. It is accepted very matter-of-factly. Its not even considered impolite. Cyberspace is a different ballgame. Indians & hindus will give just as much as they get. Dont like it, when you get a taste of your own medicine eh? Like my friend URstruly says, give respect to get respect. So when you bash other religions & countries, have the balls to get your religion & country bashed as well. And DONT tell me that its the Indians or the hindus who always start these fights!

Some of you muslims are ignorant of the core philosophy of hinduism--hindus believe in one supreme God too. We may symbolise Him in the form of idols & give Him many names; but we believe in the same God as you. When you muslims sanctimoniously say (or imply) ``our way of praying to God is the only TRUE way, & the rest of you are inferior, immoral, ignorant heathens``; you are behaving just like the brahmins who look down upon other castes.

Yeah, caste system is WRONG, very wrong. Dowry is wrong, sati is wrong, female infanticide is wrong (er hindu religion does`nt condone that). Yes, we are attempting to correct the wrongs in our religion by passing laws. Is that enough? has the problem been solved--heck NO! But were trying. At least we have the BALLS to admit the faults in our religion.

Islam is PERFECT is`nt it? God forbid if anybody has the balls to point out its imperfections in Pakistan--his arse is in jail for blasphemy. Those who deviate from the dominant discourse of Islam are OUTCAST. Ask an Ahmedi or a Qiadiani---they are OUTCAST. God help them if they have the BALLS to call themselves muslims! Wow! What a perfect tolerant religion!!

Who is MORE perfect Sunnis or Shias? In your zeal to demonstrate that either is perfect, you even KILL each other! Allah must be very very proud of HIS favourite children, when they HATE each other & find reason to comit murder during one of your religious festivals---all in the name of HIS glory. Wah! Wah! Subhanallah!

Among Sunnis, who is MORE perfect--the deobandis, barevalis or wahabbis? Er, where do the sufis fall in the arguement of PERFECTION? Islam does`nt have a caste system. But you sure as heck have a SECT SYSTEM. Islam is Egalitarian, only in THEORY--in practice? MY FOOT! When a hindu refuses to marry into another caste--he`s goddamned shameless, as far as I`m concerned. JUST as shameless as a sunni refusing to marry a shia or an ahmedi; or vice versa. Dont tell me that doesnt happen.

So ALL muslims follow a PERFECT religion. But let me remind you of one tiny little fact---some muslims are MORE PERFECT than others.

So, you PERFECT children of Allah, I freely admit, we hindus have many, many things about our religion we are ashamed about. But we get pissed off when you holier-than-thou perfect assholes have the BALLS to stand in judgement of us. If you think Allah has given you the right to think you are better than everybody else; guess what -- you`re wrong.

Hobbyty, so are all idol worshippers idiots?

Hobbyty,

Are muslims being bombed just because they love fellow Muslims? Can you substantiate that please.

Hindus are unwilling to discuss the caste system? Can you point specifically to any?

So, how do you think that Hindus should get rid of this scourge of a caste system? If you have any better ideas other than outlawing it in the constitution please let us know.

PM 225

I am hurt to read such a post come from you - please reconsider

Idol :

1. A image

2. A representation or symbol of an object of worship; broadly: a false God

3. A pretender, Imposter

4. A form or appearance visible but without substance.

5. False conception, a fallacy.

Do any of these fit the monotheist tradition`s description of God? Please reconsider.

SOCIAL CONDITIONING UNDER ISLAM,

Kafir is a word unique to islam, it identifies all others who are not muslims. A non muslim cannot state from experience, but in the early child hood it should be damn difficult to spot an non muslim in pakistan, charecterise him/her and define a kafir. That is why the pak curriculum insists on the childrens ability to identify a hindu. Kafir and the TNT are complementary concepts.

Closely linked to the kafir is the concept of jihad. Every religion bestows the best on the true follower of the religion, usually the heaven and this is reserved for the jihadist.

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Indeed it is amazing that the same Indians who claim that Islam is intolerant and at war with the world, are also, in the lead to be intolerant towards Islam.

These same ``tolerant`` Indians do not wish to discuss the intolerance of the Caste system; an idea integral to Hinduism. That persons exist to serve others in a higher caste. That such persons may never escape the cycle of birth, servitide and rebirth and servitude...

These same Indians say they have outlawed caste, as if they had brought it into existence by proclaiming a law. These same Indians say that caste has little functionality in ``secular`` India. Most Hindu girls interested in marriage will tell you what caste the family name of a propective groom is, which Indian State it is prevalent in. And note the kinds of vocations available to lower castes - And imagine that this applies to more than a billion human souls. Would it be intolerance to set the captives free?

These same Indians, while hurlings insults and non truths at Islam and Muslims, seem never to discuss the idea of redemption, forgiveness, mercy and compassion. They argue Muslims must not love Muslims first, no brotherhood of the Ummah, no! these same Indians who do base so many simple decisions and functions of daily life, influenced by caste, they suggest Islam is intolerant. Where minorities have few rights. They offer ``secular`` India where minorities have tremendous freedoms - ask the Kashmiri - Ask the Christian converts - ask the tribals -

They say Muslims cannot live as minorities among other peoples (Isn`t that a very tolerant view?) and therefore use of lethal force against them is justified and in the same breath, they emphasize that they are same as those against whom they exercise lethal coersion (Now, isn`t that tolerant?) ``I affirm that as a secularist I love you, but as a secularist, I feel the imperative to use lethal force against you, because you love your coreligionist`` - Isn`t that tolerant?

Rejoice Muslims! those that do hate you are ignorant - in the name of tolerance and secularism, they do practice intolerance and derive justification for it by religion!

Klutz #215, 218

Everthying in this world is imperfect. When God was unable to make a perfect world how could he/ she give us a perfect religion?

At one time Christanity was the fastest growing religion and some other point of time Budhism was and maybe at some other time some other religion has been. So you see even if Islam is the fastest growing one right now, it could be that it might be usurped by something else tomorrow. No offence intended.

Anyway as you say, even I am fed up with this heavy religious discussion. Especially, when I come to think of it that I am not particularly a very religious person.

Mona

Dr Hoodbhoy thanks for a great article.

I have followed your writings for a long time and i was really gratified to see you on american tv during a news programme recently, you are much younger then i thought.Keep up the good work! I hope u will interact.

If I may add my two dimes worth:

I think we need to get away from the mindset of viewing the western block in general and the U.S in particular as a monolith and our enemy they are neither.We live in a small world akin to a neighbourhood some neghbours have more then others.

like or not U.S is the center of the universe for all humanity now and for a long time to come.

The principals of democracy and individual freedom that have taken root on this soil are universal and all mankind can partake of it, and will.Inshallah.

The myth that the western block was decadent and was going to fall to pieces when challenged has been shattered.

The good news is that the so called west is no longer populated by any particular ethnic group or religious group, it is a club with membership open to all who believe in these principals.

A notice to those who oppose it,do so at your own peril.

re. Klutz #180

``If one believes in Allah then he should also believe in HIS words. Quran is Allah`s words. there is nothing supposedly said in it. Allah said that HE will protect HIS book. No one can change HIS words even if one trys to do so.``

Like I said bfore, Ms Klutz.. I see no problem in believeing in Allah, but not believing THAT the Quran is Allah`s word perfected. Your logic is a little strange, frankly. Even if I do follow your logic that ``If one believes in Allah then he should also believe in HIS words.``, there does not automatically follow that (a) ``Quran is Allah`s words.``, or , even assuming it WAS, that it would be perfect, especially given our knowledge nowadays of the history of the Quran (never mind everything that mom and Dad told you about not one nukta being changed etc.)

#218

``anyway im tired of this never ending discussion...its really not going anywhere...``

And I thought it was only just getting interesting! :) But really klutz, you really started it... Of course you are rntitled to your beliefs, but when you air them, you naturally are provoking a debate. and it is much easier to defend a statement such as ``Islam (or any system) is not perfect`` than to refute it. Anyway, agreeing to disagree is a default condition when arguing about such metaphysics. The best we can hope to do is think a little deeper on through being questioned and provoked.

sincerely

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re. Studebaker #184

``Also Mohommed has word from god ,Allah that it is still better to be a sinfull muslim ,than a pious non believer .You can plead for a muslim but even mohommed cannot plead for non muslims.``

And you know all this because who told you so?

re. Klutz #181

``I need no priest to ask for God`s forgiveness on my behalf!I also know that i dont need no idols to concentrate.I have enough between my ears to know that those man-made idols are just that.Man-Made! How can something which you created yourself has the power to shape your lives.I also know that i dont need to worship fire,or wind,or water. Everything is between me and my Allah.I will ask Him for help and i will ask Him for forgiveness.``

So you have a ``direct`` relationship with ``your`` Allah. How is that any better or any worse than an interceded one, other than for the reason that your Mommy told you so?

Ok, assuming a direct connection is preferrable to `your Allah`, what makes your Allah any less of an idol than one made of brick and mortar? Is tangibility a requirement for idolatry? Why is Bhagwan -- or YWH-- my autie`s favorite God -- and less of an idol than Allah?

Now. please don`t get me wrong... I`m not just trying to ridicule you, klutz... but Freankly, I am tired of hearing Christains and Muslims claim some sort of moral superiroty on the basis of their believe in ONE God, as if there was some inherent supreme moral virtue in that particular number. I am aware of the significance of Unity which underscores not just the orignial Judeo-Christo-Islamic insistence on that number but is also t obe found in Hindu and Buddhist Philosphy (despite teh outer appearances of many deities. Even the various Native American tribes, with their scores of seities, pay homage to one great Ultimate (a rough approximation of the Christian/Muslim God).

All very well, as long as there is some sort of experience attached to the concept. The Hebrews were very aware of how easily Yahweh could be turned into an idol -- not by the construction of some stone representation, but by conceptualizing without an underlying experience. Concepts, after all, can be as empty as words.

So, my dear klutz (not to sound condescending)... perhaps you will give some more thought to these matters before you feel feel that sense of superiority associated with the number One, or the idolized form of the reality to which Allah/God/Baghwan/Yahweh point.

rgds,

PM

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AEisha #190

``Except for Sir Syed ,majority of muslims for good or for bad ,were ideologically at logger head with christian culture of booze music,dance,gambling etc.``

hmmmm.... judging from the results of a culture in which booze, music, dance and gambling are strictly prohibited ion ideological grounds, is it really a quesstion of whether is was ``for Good or for bad``??

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RE: Reply #: 171 Eklavya

[Aeisha # 156

``This definition becomes a little narrow in Hinduism. It is currently narrow in Islam but hat is because the ideal has been steadily abandoned…on the contrary Hinduism is inertly that.``]

I said that, not Aeisha.

[If Islam regains its ideal of universal brotherhood (not just Islamic brotherhood, which I am sure you would agree must only be a distortion) and Hinduism overcomes its genuine problems of caste etc, we would be be together, don`t you think?]

I certainly hope differences could melt away because we have similar problems. History has not shown hope.

I think the problem lies in the fundamentals of the religions.

a) Hinduism is much more ancient than Islam.

b) Islam is still perhaps got a while to go before it looses its venom of breaking the patterns.

c) The concept of one source of life vs. the idea of multiple sources, often symbolic sources of life in Hinduism.

d) The caste system in Hinduism is something that in my opinion is noting bad as such if we seek to understand the idea of survival back then. Huxley, Aldous in his book, ``A brave new world`` explains so beautifully how this stratification helps in the development of a society already so advanced, that`s aim is only consumption. that vs. Islam`s idea of equality perhaps needed to scrape quiet a few structures if it needed to take effect.

e) Lack of symbolism in Islam is antagonistic to the very life blood of Hinduism.

So, with these fundamentals so polarized, no matter how much assimilation there is, the orthodox in each group will only encourage any attempt to create a mixture to be insoluble. The partition was the separation of this insolubility after long years of attempting to find a law that allows both substances (religions) to be in place and settled.

I guess I differ here, that the idea is not to overcome our inert belief systems but to let us hold them dear as we find our role in the service of our Nations. To seek to understand and work together with people whose belief system doesn’t entangle in the web of who`s God is cooler or like Upman used the Ad populam fallacy with Einstein, but to judge success by which group of people are able to walk with everyone regardless of their color caste or creed to secure what lies within the borders that surround them.

Aisha Sarwari