Brahmin and Mullah

Reply: YLH #366

YLH, sorry for the delay in responding to your post. I have diligently gone through BM`s postings (twice! Hence the delay) but have been unable to find absolutely anything on kebabs or related subjects. I`m missing something here, aren`t I?

Best regards

Zafar

Reply: jntuece99

Yes, you are absolutely right, and biryani also! Do you, by the way, know a short cut way to make birista (the fried onion stuff used in hyderabadi biryani)? I would be most grateful since traditional approach is a bit tiring. :) Zafar

Sadna - a belated thank you for the address of the Hisba article. Truly appalling - makes one wonder about the wisdom of opening borders further - I think it illustrates some of the points I made in my last posting re: ijtihad.

I would also be interested in anybody else`s take on it.

address: www.thefridaytimes.com under opinion. Title has ``bad guy image`` in it.

Sadna

I suspect that a few things stand in the way of you getting a straight answer to the questions you’ve asked about religion.

People tend to react defensively to what is seen as implied criticism, often responding with an “attack” of some sort. This is unfortunate, but human.

This is compounded by the fact that I suspect many of the people on Chowk may not be as well versed in the theology of their religion as you may be in yours. There is no shame in admitting that one doesn’t know the answer to a question, but when the question is perceived as a challenge, human insecurity may again intervene, leading us back to the tendency mentioned above.

To give you some background about possible whys and wherefores of our uncertainty:

[This is to the best of my knowledge. If anybody here knows better, please correct/add/subtract.]

The rules by which Muslims are to live their lives are based on

1 the Koran Sharif,

2 Sunnah (sayings and actions of the Prophet) and

3 Qiyas (analogy).

When an issue comes up, these three are used to define what the Islamic response to the issue is. The process for this is called Ijtihad. For example, when a verse of the Koran Sharif may be understood in more than one way, Ijtihad allows one to isolate the intention of the verse by referring to other verses, Sunnah, and logic. Then the intention of the verse can be applied to the issue or new situation.

The rules for Ijtihad are quite specific. They include (for example) an assessment of when and where a verse was revealed and the context of a particular Sunnah. These would help isolate the meaning/intention of the verse.

And who can carry out Ijtihad? Well, anybody who has adequate knowledge of the Koran Sharif, Sunnah and Qiyas.

So far so logical, right?

Ijtihad led, as you might expect, to a variety of opinions. In a polity which depended on religious belief as the unifying factor (the early Caliphates) this was troubling to those in temporal power. It also led to much disagreement between believers. For these two reasons two trends emerged. First of all, the people whose Ijtihad was respected by the State was increasingly limited, till it narrowed down to the Ulema. And finally, when even this did not stop disagreement among Muslims (and with the Caliph!), the Ulema of the tenth century declared “the gates of Ijtihad to be closed”.

This resulted in a tradition of rote learning, and unquestioning acceptance of what Muslims were told were Islamic practices due to tradition. Accompanied by the decline of the Muslim World. Draw your own conclusions about the relationship between the two.

Of course the world just kept changing, and more recently there was a growing feeling that not only should Muslims be free to do Ijtihad in relation to the modern world, but that it was their duty to do so. (By recently I mean over the last hundred years. This was a part of the ferment of anti-colonialism across the Third World.) This is not, however, universal, and certainly not established as a norm.

So to FINALLY get to the point, when you ask a question about Islam, people may just not know the answer, or may not have the knowledge to present it to you in a coherent or logical way. This, I suspect, is the reason for the “I refuse to discuss it” or “how dare you ask me” sort of responses you tend to get (apart from good old-fashioned evasion, of course). Of course, I may just be wrong about that…(er…to all outraged people at this point I’ll say that I generally don’t have the knowledge, and so I keep quiet. Perhaps not such an attractive option when the question is addressed directly to you?)

Please keep in mind that in addition to that every-green source of meaningful exchange, the Muslims/Hindus-Do-This-Can-You-Tell-Me-Why-Hehehehe thing, Muslims on Chowk are (like it or not) also caught up in our own Religion’s interaction with modernity, with the outcome not yet decided on to broad satisfaction. (I give you Afghanistan on one hand. I give you Turkey on the other. See what I mean?)

If you have an interest in these things, I’d recommend a couple of books by Fatima Mernissi, who is a Moroccan Sociologist. Two particularly good ones are “Islam and Modernity” and “Women and Islam”.

[Again – I’ve put down the truth as I know it. The faults are mine alone. If anybody knows better, please feel free to correct/negate, etc.]

As to the Muslims are more equal than non-Muslims thing, please see my response #33. I think it is clear, as far as it goes. This is, of course, open to Ijtihad, however. Kaun karne thaiyar hai?

Zafar

PS Again, apologies for lengthy post. If you made it so far please reward yourself with chocolate, icecream, etc.

Hobbyty: You have explained the problem with Sadna`s posts more eloquently and accurately than I could have. Thank you. I went through PMs note as well, who kindly provided Sadna`s questions which I have cut and paste below. (Friend: On my previous post requesting the questions from Sadna, please do not bother since I have them.)

Question 1: ``how is it that we (a) allow laws that discriminate (or can be easily abused) agaisnt Minorities.``

Answer: Because those laws (Shariah laws) were introduced by a military dictator (Zia) who did not ask ``us``. duh!! And because neither NS nor BB (nor PM today) were willing to stir up the mullahs on these issues. You may have noticed that neither Zia, nor NS nor BB are very popular among Pakistanis on chowk, incidentally. I agree that the shariah laws have no basis in Islam, were created by a dictator for self-serving purposes, and should be done away with.

question 2: `` Why is it that we do not raise a hue and cry about OUR funding of the taliban when they go about killing thousands of their fellow Muslims, and make inroads into our own country?``

Answer: Because people in Pakistan have their own problems to worry about (little things like finding the next meal, finding a job, and so on). They will take care of the ``fellow Muslims`` in other countries once they have sorted out their own problems.

duh!!

Reply Klutz #369

Klutzji, salaam

Palestinians are being persecuted because they are Palestinian and dispute Israel`s claim to sole rights over land in Palestine. Some Palestinians are Muslim, some Palestinians are Christian, some are communist and hence of no religion. I don`t think that their religion is the reason they are being persecuted there.

And not that you asked but just because I think so:

Kurds are being persecuted because their insistence on their ethnic identity (as per use of language, etc.) threatens the ``nation state`` ideology of Turkey and the ``Arabist`` ideology of Iraq - especially when some Kurds wish to apply the ``nation state`` ideology to themselves, ie they`re a nation, so where`s the state?

Religion does not come into either of these cases of injustice and, dare I say, evil. The Palestinian-Israeli conflict is dressed up in religious clothes for the West`s consumption but really it has very little to do with religious belief. The closest you could get to defining it in those terms would be to say that a minority of one group of people have a religious belief that people of a different ethnicity have no rights in this particular patch of the world, but that the majority of that group does not believe that and that neither of the religions which the other group largely follow say any such thing at all.

Oh....er, and yes, this is a free service.

:)

Friend:

Just a few points:

- There are many writers from uss-paar that are well regarded by interactors from iss-paar and vice versa. I am a selective reader; I do not want to read everyone. My prerogative! There are a few who leave a lasting impression and there are a few who are to be skipped. I have rarely cared to read the chupqalash scenarios, if any, going on between any parties. The recent one caught my attention as we were on the verge of the same scenario couple of months back.

- I have stopped reading Sadhna`s winding posts. I simply do not like the mindset expressed. I do not want to rip it apart and shed some light as I am indifferent. There are many articulate, wise, jahan shanas(worldly knowledgeable) and tactful writers on board from iss-paar, who can do a much better job than me in responding to her very genuine and polite queries!

- If Yasser or anyone else has been expressing strong emotions on certain issues that should be taken with that person than toward the whole community. Insults by any one toward other are simply wastage of bandwidth!

- Religion is a very sacred and personal matter. I am a die-hard believer on one thing; if you are truly in love with your own belief system/have the regard for it, you simply cannot think of disrespecting anyone else`s. You may not be able to connect to the other person`s religious beliefs/may not find the practices worth observing, but you are taken over by a strange sensation that only a *believing heart * can feel. Words cannot do justice here. My argument can be countered by various other points, but I wrote what I believe in. There are wars that took place and Muslims went ahead and killed Muslims. Am I in any position to say that they lacked that fervor or weren`t true believers? Not at all. I had a hard time understanding their stance. Probably, due to my own limitations. It was a joke to read about the war between Iraq and Kuwait, where the two countries went for a silence-period during the fasting month and restarted the war after that. Both were observing the same religion and kept the same fasts. Unbelievable!

Hope my train of thoughts made some sense.

PS: Last Post on the topic at hand.

Studebaker #379
Good post. There have been studies which showed clearly that Muslims suffer more in riots and are picked on more by law-enforcement than Hindus. Have there been reports of judicial bias? I donot know how judges can influence the promotions of government servants, I think the onus is on the executive to pursue justice and it has been failing miserably, including wrt the Srikrishna report and the Sikh riots. The onus is also on the public which has been apathetic too, in demanding action.

klutz #394
I was not asking you, I was TELLING you about Kurds after your preposterous statement that Muslim majorities donot indulge in `ethnic cleansing` of their own. And look up Coptic Christians of Egypt sometime.

btw, its easy for the Taliban to be tolerant when there is just one person left of a different religious community. Let there be say 50,000 or a few hundred thousand who began to demand equal rights, then see how tolerant they would be. In fact the Taliban is a minority group imposing harsh laws on the majority through mere power of the gun and intimidation, not through seeking people`s consent. And you call them tolerant..

Reply #: 369

sadna

Let me make myself clear... i donot hold any biases towards non-muslims. I dont care what caste a person is from or wht color he/she is... neither do i care what nationality he/she holds... it doesnt matter to me whether a person is an indian/ a paki .. etc...

Also all my sympathies are with the minorities in pakistan and in all other muslim states.As i said in my previous post to dost-mittar (i think) ,i feel that minorities should be given equal rights and should be treated equally... so plz donot make any false assumptions... i would be grateful.

Now it is not only the muslim states in which minorites are being treated unfairly.. but minorities rights are being discriminated all over the world.BTW i dont see why i should answer your question about why kurds were persecuted when u cant answer mine... i asked u why muslims were being killed in palestine,and other such places.

Friend #388 ``You are just a worm who is just trying to wriggle out of questions posed by Sadna.``

Thank you for the promotion (or is it a demotion?) to worm. What questions are these that I am trying to wriggle out of?

Zahra #384

``Firstly, I must appreciate your hardwork to find the meaning of my first name. ``

Tum vyarth hi swayam to bhurum mein rakh rahi ho. Uchit to hoga ki tum apne jeevan to saarthak karne kaa prayaas karo. Sadna ne jo prashan kiye, unke uttar paane ka prayas karo. Jeevan yun vyarthalaap karne mein mat khoao. Jo kuch lene yogya hai wo grahan karo. Asha hai ki yeh saab salah swikar kar yatha yogya upyog mein laane ka prayas karogi.

Meri pyari gulab ki kali,

You should not flatter yourself by the meaning of your first or last or any other name. After reading your posts everyone will think that the meaning of your name is ``Jehar``. You have been a regular contributor for last few years. Did you never notice the posts from Yaseer, Sarwari and several others who keep repeating their slogans. Did you ever try to stop them? Hiding behind facade of cute and cheeky comments will not hide the ugliness clearly visible in your persona.

Try to reply to Sadna`s very appropriate questions. If you provide good answers I am very sure that she and every other contributor will accept them.

ali1 #376 Thank you ali1 for the good advice to convert to hinduism, and the accompanying benefits you describe are duly noted. You would be surprised at the little difference it makes whether you are a muslim or a hindu.

SN #375 I have no doubt that the chauvinists are equally distributed among muslims and hindus. Perhaps the right thing to do is in fact to ignore them. There are enough intelligent people on chowk to make it worthwhile to spend time interacting on chowk. I`ll try to keep your advice in mind.

PM 373

PM that was heavy handed. That we put up with bigotted laws is to our shame. But, venting on YLH or Tahmed is no kind of solution.

I will offer to be a part of a solution and so will others here on Chowk: I suggest we write to Mr. Kakakhel in Islamabad and ask for details on certain laws (you will determine which laws) and we will seek an explanation of how they came to be and how they operate in society and how they are used by powerful inteerests against minorities - WHo are the people these laws impact most on.

I agree that very many Pakistanis and myself included have been apathetic and that this will not do. I give youb my word that I will assist in this, in any way possible.

Are you in a position to request a distinguished person from the minority community to write on Chowk, about some of the problems that create a hurdle for them?

Are any Pak Church groups involved in any kind of inter-faith dialogue, or associated with any Mainstream or otherwise, Muslim charitable organizations?

On the issue of the Sadna`s questions - let me first say that I agree that she is one of the brightest and articulate persons on Chowk, and let me also add that she comes across as continuously Hostile. Many could learn much if she invite dialogue and exploration, yet all yet from her is hostility and ``did you beat your wife today`` type questions. That gets old. A typical thing from Sadna will be raising an issue then asking all manner of Pakistanis and Muslims to defend a position that they have not taken. These are childish and dishonest. Perhaps she needs to reevaluate why she is here, is it to learn and teach, to grow as a person, to make connections, or is the reason to be here simply to display hostility?

tahmed321 #372

[[friend #364 ``Dear Ahmek, did you have same irritation when you lil` ylh constantly berates Indians?``

Actually I did, and advised ylh the same (and indeed one or two other folks too). You see, I dont care whether you are Indian or Pakistani or Hindu or Muslim or Zen Buddhist. I dont care whether you insult me personally or offer praise. My self-appointed job on chowk is to point to hate-filled posts when I see them. I am after all an ahmek, you know. ]]

Dear Mr Ahmed,

Did you care to use the same tone and language for lil` yasser? Did you call any of your compatriots a roach? you should have started this SELF-APPOINTED job from your home. Was not this article hate filled? Why is your ``reham`` only reserved for Sadna who till now hasn`t called anyone a bad word?

You even read PM`s reply. Will you direct your ``kripa`` on him too?

No you are not ahmek. You are just a worm who is just trying to wriggle out of questions posed by Sadna.

ylh #378

``Urstruly, ...We are being menaced by a bigoted fanatical monster called Bhartiya Musalman... will you not come to Pakistan`s aid? ``

Oye khotya,

Phir mummy mummy ki rUt laganda hai. Koi sharam hai ki nai.