Brahmin and Mullah

re. Tahmed:

``most people can be expected to assume that life imprisonment means life imprisonment everywhere (as in US, I am pretty sure).``

hmmm... TAhmed, I thought only, ``life without Parole`` meant you got to spend the rest of you life behind bars in the US.

rgds,

PM

re. Klutz:

``If Allah Has said that islam is perfect then who are u to say it is flawed???``

Maybe Zafar was referring to that belief as the flaw?? Dunno... just asking...

Reply #: 133 Rdesikan

--I don`t believe that as a religion, Hinduism has an official name as Islam does. It was, I believe a monikor acquired over the ages. India is probably rooted in the word ``Indus`` as is Hinduism. I belive that it was the arab/muslim invaders who started calling India ``Hindustan``. The natives, I suppose, classified themselves based on language or region, such as Rajput or Punjabi.--

This is very true... while Islam has since the beginning referred to itself as Islam (or Al-Islam) Hinduism is simply the name given to all of the indigenous religions of India that have common ties. While it is true that today Hinduism has developed (and I don`t mean this in the sense that it wasn`t developed before... simply that it has changed the way it presents itself to the world) into a more or less singular religion (with different thought processes in it), it still remains something large enough and diverse enough to accomodate a plethora of ideas and methods of worship. And it wa, to the best of my knowledge, defined according to the Indus river as far as geographical position and at that by the British (unless anyone has info about the Mughals or someone else calling it that) I`m open to be proved wrong on this point if that be the case :)

Pursuing an American Dream While Following the Koran

Lending institutions are tapping into a growing market of

Islamic Americans who are trying to follow the religion`s

prohibition on paying or receiving interest.

http://partners.nytimes.com/2001/07/05/business/05ISLA.html?todaysheadlines

Zafar#122

Mr. Zafar, I did go through your whole response! Well, I liked it because my views on this issue, as I have expressed several times on Chowk, are also similar. Fundamentalism is appealing especialy because it offers a simplistic remedy, a panacea, to our problems which are essentially complex. It is like an escapist route taken by a beseiged person. I guess people will take a note of the following para:

``The implications are that if we all lived as they did during the Golden Age all our questions would be answered, and that if we were virtuous and happy once we could be again - so long as we all followed the rules expounded by whichever movement happened to be preaching at the time. Fundamentalism purports to provide simplicity when life is not simple. It claims to work so long as people do not ask questions``

Sincerely

To Ekalavya,

I beg to differ with you sir, in this issue. Unless we discuss something, however repugnant it is, how can we move forward? I hope you got my point. Though your intention of apologising to backward castes everytime we write something about it is said with good intentions, It definitely looks silly to me.

To Mcgupta and Jay and to other Indians,

Though we have the largest affirmative action in the world, you know that it is very inefficient and lost the priority now. There are two dangers right now.

1) The creamy layer in the backward castes themselves becoming another forward `class` thereby denying the reservations to the needy

and 2) The diminishing role of Public sector and the increasing importance of Private sector.

Though the former is being tackled now in some states with the initiative of courts ( Kerala again, I believe led the initiative with some other states like Andhra pradesh following suit), there is still a lot of ground to cover.

The more important is the second issue. I have read an article in Hindu recently which talks about the concentration of power in the so called forward castes in Private sector. And with the government role diminishing in future, the employment opportunities for backward classes remain bleak. What is your opinion on this issue? Will we have to enforce reservations in private sector? It again poses a problem with the FDIs and other private sector investments. I feel the process of substantial empowerement of the backward castes had been given a big blow by this Liberalisation and Globalization.

I am concerned as to what ripple effects this phenomenon has on the other aspects of ur lives..

Cheers,

Jntuece99

re. sb #132?

``And the caste system today is not limited to the Hindus - I know Christian families who try to marry only from within the (Hindu) castes that they converted from.``

Yeah... I know only too well. Pakistani Christians (historically Hindu converts, not Muslim) did carry on the glorious traditions and hangups of Caste until not long ago. Many a prospective courtship of my parents` -- and even older siblings` -- generation met a premature death at the hands of demurring caste-conscious elders.

...just thought I`d throw in the bit of trivia (though I`m not so sure it was no trivial matter for those affected).

Re: Klutz 134

My pleasure, boss. Will try to continue to be of service.

Reply #: 112 bhartiya musalman

You call urself a muslim?You are so proud to be an ``INDIAN`` muslim because you can see islam is flawed? God what kind of a muslim are you? Do you have something between ur ears? It`s people like you the ``So called`` muslims who are an embarrassment to our religion. If islam was flawed would it be the ``fastest growing religion in the world today?`` We are lucky to be pakistanis. Atleast here we are taught how lucky we are to be born muslims. Atleast we know that islam is the absolute religion and is perfect!!! In india you are taught that islam is flawed. MAN Thats something...i wish i was an indian!!SHEESH!!!

What kind of a muslim are you anyway?By birth only?????? You remind me of an ``indian Muslim woman`` who on her friends advice went to a ``Mandar`` to pray for her sons health who was dying.She didnt pray to Allah (well maybe she didnt) . but she went to a mandar and prayed to those objects made of stone. Well Yea you believe in Allah..but you dont believe HIS words when HE says that ive perfected your religion for you.

You bore me and so does your reply!Its ignorant ppl like you who dont practice islam who dont research on it and then have the guts to say ``islam is flawed``!

egalatarian_brahmin #93: Some interesting comments. Here is my take on them.

``There is a far-flung misunderstanding amongst Pakistanis, fuelled by the memorable instances of the past - the 1962 Sino-Indian war (where India avowedly lost miserably) and the 1965 Indo-Paki war (about which they complacently jactitate vis-a-vis the exploits of their AirForce), that the woebegone sapless Hindoo Army with its decrepit and flea-bitten infrastructure and equipment can barely match the Pakistanis in ``quality``, notwithstanding its quantitative superiority``

I think this part was correct in the past. From the partition till around the early 70s, there was a conception or misconception amongst the Pakistani leadership that has been stated by you. I don`t the know the reason behind it. I think it was a hangover from historical times, with Muslims ruling India. Pakistani leaderships believed that only the Sikh, Gorkha, and Muslim was fighting material. Even amongst the Muslims, they felt only the Punjabi and Pathan could fight. They felt the Bengalis, Sindhis etc. could not fight either. So it was not limited to Hindus. Perhaps, it was the British who passed these views onto the Pakistani generals.

I don`t think this conception or misconception holds anymore in the Pakistani military. Interestingly, I have met many Indians who are bent upon trying to prove that it does exist. Perhaps they feel the Pakistani military still doubts the Indian soldiers ability to fight.

I have sat in on a lot of tactical planning sessions, which were tailored towards India being the adversary. And I don`t remember a single one in which anyone stated that the Pakistani aircraft would shot down the Indian aircraft, just because the later was being flown by a Hindu. All of them were based on scientific comparison of the abilities of the aircraft, tactics and skill level of the pilots.

The quotes you have taken from RAND do not explain the whole scenario, the author is discussing. The actual theme of the analysis is that while China is stronger than India, the difference isn`t quite as much as the difference between China and other countries, i.e. China is mcuh more powerful than other countries, but just more powerful than India, not much more powerful:

``While China maybe superior to India in power political terms, India is by no means an, ``easy mark.`` (from the same RAND paper).

I doubt you will find too many people who would place India and China in the same category militarily or economically. China, even when it had a lower per capita income than India, was a military superpower. Within 25 years, it will have an economy the size of the US. At that stage it will be a power the size of the US.

There are many factors that go into being a military power:

One is a giant military, which both India and China possess. However China`s is larger than India`s. The other is a giant military budget, which both India and China possess, however China`s (unofficial) military budget is around $30 billion, while India`s is around $14 billion. Third is the types and numbers of conflicts the country has engaged in. China has been willing to take on the US in theatres like Korea. India is still busy fighting Pakistan. I doubt India would have had the power or courage to take down the recent US spy plane, like China did.

Last, but definitely not least, is a military production infrastructure. This is perhaps the most important factor. India does not produce any kind of credible military exportable equipment. China has a complete infrastructure which produces export quality fighters, tanks, guns, etc.

``nuclear power notwithstanding, have a powerful enough military to put the Chinese in their place. The Chinese live in the same complacent dreamworld as you do,``

I don`t think the Indian leadership agrees with you on this one. The Chinese military regularly carries out border incursions into India. Infact they carried out a Kargil like operation, at very high altitudes recently, and build roads into Indian territory recently (please read Brian Cloughley`s analysis). The Indian leadership never responds to such attacks, to the extent that very few Indians even know about them.

The last thing the Chinese leadership can be accused of is complacency. I remember Moeen Qureshi of World Bank stating that the Chinese leadership was the shrewdest he had ever met.

The final factor is economy. In the end, this is the biggest factor. Even though India is now reaching 6% growth rates, its gap with China is actually increasing, due to the even higher growth rates China. Even in the very very best growth rate scenarios for India, the Chinese economy will still be nearly twice the size of the Indian economy.

Based on the above, I don`t think India is a military match for China. And the gap is actually getting bigger and bigger. Within 25 years, China and the US will be two equally placed military and economic superpowers.

If Pakistan`s economy gets back to its traditional 6% growth rates, India will continue to be bracketed in the same group as Pakistan, in the near and distant future. If Pakistan`s economy stays at its current 3.5% average, and India continues going at 6%, India will become an Indian Ocean power, but still not in the same league as China.

As they say, there can only be one king of the jungle. And in Asia, for the distant future, it seems to be China.

jntuece99 # 144

God! I am terrible at the art of exaggeration...

I didnt literally mean that we begin and end each discussion on caste with an apology!! That will be the silliest thing. My call was, and remains, that we make our disapproval of caste sytem amply evident in all our discussions. Gupta clearly did so, and I have apologized to him for unintentionally suggesting that he didn`t. However, the fact is that some Hindus DO use similar arguments as a kind of weak or apologetic `defense` of caste system.

THAT is what I am afraid of. Arguments that edify and clarify when made by someone of subtle understanding and noble intentions, can serve to obfuscate and mislead when appropriated by others who do not meet these high tests. In religious matters this happens all too often. That is why we must to be VERY alert to this possibility if our purpose is not merely to exchange ideas but to actually make a difference in the lives and thinking of `real` (non-Chowk! :)) people. And, it is on this note that I will soon continue with my last posting.

Cheers.

EK

Re: AD1 # 139

I`m not sure exactly which of my outpourings you`re refering to here, but a general response: I try not to criticise anybody`s religious faith because it`s pointless and ill mannered to do so. Perhaps you are confusing religious ``faiths`` with religious ``beliefs``?

Examples of religious faiths include Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, Christianity, Jainism. Each individual`s religious beliefs, however, are a function of their UNDERSTANDING of their particular faith. And unless an individual is perfect, their ability to understand things is not perfect either. I have never, personally, met a perfect person.

In any case, Klutz seems like a very decent bloke, but if you don`t understand something I`ve said, why ask him instead of me? Being imperfect myself, I`m afraid I don`t understand this.

/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * */

Pankaj - I`m glad somebody sees it the way I do.

Sadna - is the article on Hisba on the net? Do you have its address?

Klutz,

{{you criticize the army for throwing the govt out every few years,yet you dont look at the reason behind it.Why does the army do that?Because the 2 major political parties bankrupted Pakistan}}

I`m assuming you are Pakistani. I`m not well versed in Pakistani history. Were the reasons why Ayub & Zia seized power as compelling as that of Musharraf`s coup?

re. Klutz & Zafar

``Well Yea you believe in Allah..but you dont believe HIS words when HE says that ive perfected your religion for you.``

Klutz, does a belief in Allah necessitate a belief in EVERYTHING the Quran says (about what HE supposedly said)?

I dunno, pal... I believe in Allah AND the prophethood, and most of what the Quranic teachings... Now, whether or not I still qualify as a Muslim in your eyes, it should at least be clear that one can believe in the perfection of One but not the Other.

Cheers!

jntuece99 #141:

``1) The creamy layer in the backward castes themselves becoming another forward `class` thereby denying the reservations to the needy``

When reservations were first implemented, they were meant to be there for only 10 years. What many people do not quote is the provision to extend the plan until the `target` is met for these classes - a certain %age among them should be above a certain standard of living.

In AP, when I got of college in the early 90s, 10% of the approx 50% seats reserved for the bc/sc/st classes was for the castes under the BC-B class. At the time, the scores/grades that got these people admn into prof schools were close to those for the forward class students. By right, in a few short years these castes that `made it` should be removed from the resv list and should be making way for the still weaker sections.

But given the politics our leaders are allowed to practise, any such step would need a lot of noise from diff quarters what with the newly disenfranchised bound to oppose the move and the politicians trying not lose any vote bank and so on and so forth.

And that is where any sympathetic person`s efforts should go. From personal experience, I know that any active involvement in a movement or for a cause will impede tendencies for melodrama. (actually melodrama can be put to good use for an end, but I dont see any such use with the breast-beating here - it might just be me but i find it sickening - may be there is a perception that all the people/groups that are or see themselves as the disadvantaged want to be pampered, given the whining by some people here...)

``2) The diminishing role of Public sector and the increasing importance of Private sector.``

One of the first thoughts that came to my mind when I came to know about the rapid cut-down in govt jobs was the jobs for the weaker sections.

There is unbridled nepotism among the weaker and the forward sections alike. Heck, do they not quarrel about who should be the head of ISRO - a Kannada brahmin or a Tamil brahmin?

There used to be a chap called Ashish here who would raise the `legal flag` every now and then. If he is around, he may throw some light on the legal aspect of the whole issue.

By the way YLH, Junoon hamein ghaas nahin dalta, hum use ghaas dalte hain.