Brahmin and Mullah

Ekalavya #137: ``My reasons for repeatedly emphasizing that we upper caste Hindus be extra-sensitive (nonpragmatic, sb?) to issues of caste are entirely different ``

Some people here talk about the good effects of the institutional changes imposed by law. For changes like these to be successful there has to be some base - in the 20s my grandfather was caught playing on the mud roads of his village by the (brahmin) village school teacher and asked why he wasnt coming to school that year - in those days like now (my awareness being 10yrs stale) the children in the villages would attend school only in the rainy season when the farmers were relatively free, and the school would be run by one school teacher - learning that my grandfather was forbidden to attend school by his father due to the lack of money for the fees (plus there was no tradition of education, it was considered a useless avocation by them), the gentleman asked him to come over the next day anyway, taught him without charging for tuition and gave him some money later on to apply for the high school that was in a town farther away. That high school again had some scholarships by a local `Raja`. My grandfather went on to finish his BA and we had to bear the brunt of this and other stories over and over in my childhood for every little carelessness we indulged in. The teacher meanwhile lost the lands he owned, `fate` not compromising, none of his children could make it through to higher education, and my grandfather would help him out now and then with money and advice to his children. There was no reservation system at the time when my sudra grandfather went to school.

I am perfectly aware that this does not reflect on the entire communities in general, but my intention is to point out that a lot of times people do not take into account the flexibility that the system does allow in reality. And the fortunes and the status of the enitre communities have been changing.

I wonder what you mean by the `upper caste` - in Andhra, the first CM to break the Congress stronghold was N T Rama Rao, who belonged to the Kamma caste. These folks are in general known to be highly enterprising and are one of the richest groups in the state. Constitutionally a `forward caste`, they rose to significance only in the last century or so. Other than that, being farmers from the rural areas of coastal Andhra they should be classified as sudras according to the traditional varna system. The Telugu film industry is dominated by them since its inception. A brahmin would be an outcaste there. The current CM C Naidu is Rama Rao`s son-in-law - Naidus again have a high social status in one part of the state and a not-so-high status in others. Marriages between Kammas and Naidus are permitted in some places, and not in others.

There is the toddy tappers caste. These people are more easy to classsify - they are not only sudras but are also constitutionally a `backward caste`. The hitch is that while they are socially bakward in all parts of the state, in the Telangana region they are one of the richest groups and wield some political power.

The ill-treatment of the `lower castes` is not limited to the `upper castes` - if you know how to define them and who wronged who, let me know. For the sudra families the harijans are untoucahbles - we sudras live in the `mainstream` villages - they are away from the villages. And to me it makes full sense when they convert or are converted. And yet again if you travel to the northern coastal Andhra, you will find harijan land-lords wielding economic power. And these are fertile agricultural lands.

``(and sb, it is not an issue of backbone either, which, by His grace, is probably much stronger than you mistakenly seem to believe)``

Unless it is of Salya`s bone mettle, there might be a limit to all the bending over backwards it can take. That said, you are welcome to continue though, I will sit back and tell you whenever I am offended as a Sudra. jntuece has raised some pertinent points - my suspicion is some people may feel satisfieed enough with the guilt trips to ever reach to those issues...prove me wrong.

Narayan, I agree with you that a person at the recieving end of the stick would know more about the ill-effects of the system than a brahmin Sankaracharya ever could. All this is not an attempt to discredit that idea. Just a frustrated appeal for us to look at our own through our own eyes. And practically approach the issues if we have the guts to...

Hope the US residents had a good fourth of July.

Dear Mr. Aschettino,

This has been a pleasure to read, Thank you for writing it and hope to see you on Chowk more often…Chowk is a place where you can find a pearl after your life’s shell goes through and gathers the right proportion of low earthy material…in this process of changing the drop to a pearl…you’ll have a lot of dirt but if you stick around, be a detached observer, you’ll have lines that may help you see things in a way you never did before…Fanatics like Jay and Rsaxena are always going to be part of us, so let them pass their comments as they pass out drunk on the sidewalks, they are social garbage the partition left behind…I’m glad you have come here to present your observation that makes up for the discontinuities…your view is unique and insightful…some people might have something fall into their heads…

jntuece99 re: reply 144:

Now if every intelligent citizen of your country, accepted and kept the focus on the solutions like you did in this particular post, things would be different…everyone would feel more comfortable exposing the wounds in society and maybe we could utilize all resources on hand and find common denominators to the cure.

Mona: re: reply 129

You say, “By giving it a religios conotation you are producing a skewed view”

First, I’m glad to see that you have pathetic spellings…details some other time.

Second, I don’t believe there is a reason to think that every thing is Hindu bashing…The religion is based on certain beliefs that are contrary to a collective social system that many people who study societies and its surrounding think is a necessity to peace. Including Albert Einstein. These contradictions are the caste system, the bhamins etc…You are right when you say every religion has its good points and bad but the crux of the matter is everything boils down to consumer satisfaction…and religion can satisfy completely to the extent of creating a need to serve to one’s own people. Somehow, This definition becomes a little narrow in Hinduism. It is currently narrow in Islam but hat is because the ideal has been steadily abandoned…on the contrary Hinduism is inertly that.

Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari

Reply #: 147 Zafar Al-Talib

why thankyou...that is so kind of u !is it a free service?

Zafar Al-Talib #150

The site is www.thefridaytimes.com
The article I mentioned is in Opinion

``The `bad guy` image and how it gets made``
Khaled Ahmed`s Analysis

The author seems particularly exercised about the Hisba ordinance as if it is inevitable. I am curious if this is the case.

I liked your post #122 and
`` You have to put forward something which meets the needs it does in a better way.``

IMO, Indians cannot say it too often to their own Hindu `radicals` in the same context.

jntuece99, sb, others
Wasn`t the `creamy` layer concept struck down by the Supreme Court many years ago? I think the defination of `creamy layer` had to do with factoring in income and whether previous generations had benefitted from reservations.

The fact is that the Constitution doesnot permit distinguishing between well-off members of historically disadvantaged communities who can make it on their own and those who genuinely need the provisions of affirmative action.

Hence, I believe, it can only be through political action that any change can come about. And I believe it can come in any substantive way from only within the communities which are currently targetted by affirmative action.

When the better-off members of these communities go looking for political support among those who have not yet benefitted from affirmative action(or those suffering its ill effects such as eceonomically weak `forward` castes), these issues will have to be addressed.

Another thing is that every state in India is at a different stage in `success` of affirmative action. Its genuinely makign a difference in one state whereas in another it may be reduced to a racket. Perhaps, reservations ought to be made a wholly state subject, as a first step?

And what we have to prevent is quotas for everyone. There has to be a limit on quotas, or it will be an endless fragmentation. I remember Jayalalitha`s attempt(in a previous term) to increase quotas to a 60% level in Tamil Nadu was struck down by the courts, who set a limit of 50% reservation. I donot know if that limit still stands.

PM #146
PM, I have heard from Catholic friends about how their church rituals are `derived` in part from old pre-conversion Brahmin rituals.

And Protestant friends from a neighbouring state(some are as `fundamentalist` as anyone could wish, but only in their private religious/family lives), would describe how, though their forefathers who converted to Christianity a few generations ago, came from a rung much `lower` in the caste heirarchy than Brahmins, members of their community still make it a point in the present day to have Brahmin cooks and vegetarian food for weddings as a continuation of old customs.

Ekalavya # 144,

I get the drift of what you are saying. I agree with you and I think any Indian who interacts in Chowk would also do so. And thanx for the clarification.

sb #

ya, Reservations were implemented for only 10 years initially. But I guess 10 years is woefully less to eradicate such a deep rooted malaise. So whether it is due to the political expediency or otherwise, the decision to extend them is absolutely fine.

But as you have rightly mentioned, the decision to identify the creamy layer will be politically suicidal to any political party. More so considering that the Parties representing the Backward castes are themselves hijacked by the creamy layers of those castes (ofcourse there are a few genuine ones). They will never allow that.

So I feel this problem can be tackled only by the courts. What had been imposed by some institutional mechanism needs to be corrected by a similar one. I feel the recent initiatives undertaken by some of the State high courts (Kerala, AP etc) are a welcome phenomenon and I hope this problem will be solved soon.

I also feel this is the right time to identify the creamy layer among backward castes since most of this `creamy layer` is now employed in Central/State governments wherein identifying them will be easy.

Cheers,

jntuece99

sb and other Indians #,

But the real danger as I repeat is again the more serious problem of Increasing Globalization and Private sector/ shrinking Public sector/.

I feel the ramifications of the above will be far reaching in our society for sometime to come.

Though infighting exists in all the castes, It is the backward community who will be losing more bcos of their relative under development.

I will give one glaring example out of many. Look at the recent IT wave. What do you think will be the percentage of backward castes in the Software community in India now? Very less isnt it?

The communities which gained the most are the forward castes. They either made it there due to good academic credentials (they always had the edge bcos of better conditioning) or they invested in whatever is required (they are always much well off). And some of those who did not have both managed through their networking with their co -community members.

The backward castes (leaving some like the BC-B castes u mentioned in AP) lost in the race. so much so that ` IT is now called as the Brahmin revenge` (even M N Srinivas acknowledged it in one of his last interviews)

what happened in IT is only a precursor of things to come. Economically and Socially advanced forward castes will continue to gain at the expense of the backward castes. At the same time, the security net they had (Governemnt sector) is lost.

I feel as a society, we should look into this problem more than anything else.

Cheers,

jntuece99

sb #

I admire your attitude towards the issue of dealing with castes. Even i echo the same feelings.

The phenomenon of `forward castes` like kammas, which u are talking about, is very common throughout India and Prof. M N Srinivas gave some wonderful insights into it.

Some correction though..

Brahmins are not exactly a out caste in Telugu films. They have well defined slots allotted to them (Play back singers, lyricists, music directors).. Some reverse castism working eh? ;-)

And the present CM C B Naidu is a Kamma. The other community you are talking about is Kapus and these two communities hate each other (Do you remember the Ranga`s murder and the consequent mayhem in Vijaywada? that was in `87 i guess)

Actually the confusion arises bcos, Kammas have a last name of Chaudary (not to be confused with the North Indian one) or no last name at all in North and Central Kosta region of A P. And the `Kapus` in North and Central A.P. have a surname of Naidu. But in South A.P (esp. in regions of Nellur and Chittur dist) Kammas have a surname of Naidu. Thats how the C.M. of A.P, C B Naidu, who is from Chittor dist is a kamma.

Confused??? ;-) .

Cheers,

jntuece99

IMHO, the best solution for dealing with the caste problem in the present scenario lies in the continued development of the economy (so simple no ;-)).

The government should not remove the safety net anytime soon. Though the public sector jobs are going to diminish in future atleast in the other aspects (like in Higher, Primary and secondary education), the Government should actively support the backward castes and the creamy layer should be identified soon so that the reservations would tickle down to the needy.

If this is accompanied by 7-9% growth of economy for sometime (hopefully a long time), then the demand for jobs will provide the necessay jobs for the educated backward castes also. I dont favour the idea of forcing the Private sectors though there will be an increasing pressure from all sides (already Sociologists like Gail Omvedt and Kancha Iliah are propounding those theories),

bcos that might have a negative impact on development of country.

Cheers,

jntuece99

Sarwari Re.#156

Hi! I am glad that as far as spelling goes, we sail in the same boat.

However, I feel more than consumer satisfaction, religion is more about faith and right now 80% of the one billion people in my country has faith in what we follow.

Even if we see consumer satisfaction, then I as far as am personally concerned, is satisfies as I tend to follow the good point in it. You might argue that it could be because I am from one of the upper castes, but beleive me even the servants in our house, who belong to the lower caste doesn`t complain and even those in Bihar and some other parts of the country who suffer from the upper caste violence do not change their religion to get out of this oppressive system. This DOES NOT MEAN THAT I SUPPORT THE CASTE SYSTEM. I am just trying to make you understand that their is more to Hinduism than just caste. It is a very open religion, which from the yore has been incorporating the belives and practices of the other religion be it Jainism, Budhism, Shikism and even Islam. That is why one find that Bodh Purnima is as revered a day as Shiv Ratri. Hindus also visit various Mazars and Pirs in the country. Why, becasue no where their religion prohibits them to pay homage to any other religion. You might like Kultz say that its becasue the religion is not perfect. But despite what people would like to beleive nor is any other religion. It could have been at the time it was formed, but with the changing times the only thing which remain stagnent is the change. So, pragmatically even religious beleives must. This that applies to the caste system as well, which in todays scenario is totally irrelevant.

Why I make comment on Hindu bashing is that many of the facts are not confirmed before making specific remarks. Just doing minor and meeting few people one does not become an expert. One has to live through or along with it to know what exactilly goes on.

Mona

Ref sigalph235 #: 66

[Not to take away from the main thrust of your argument(which I do generally agree with), Pakistan`s first Chief Justice, A R Cornelius, was a Christian who migrated from what became the Indian Union; the late Dorab Patel, a Parsi, served on the Sindh High Court and later on the Supreme Court. Currently, Justice Rana Bhagwandas serves on the Supreme Court, I believe. Also, the late J N Mondol became the first speaker of the Pakistan Constituent Assembly.]

Your examples are valid, just as any example I may give of ``traitors to the cause of Pakistan`` such as Maulana Abul Kalam Azad or Rafi Ahmad Kidwai or Mohammadaly Currim Chagla who all served with distinction in post-independence India.

But I am pointing out names after one whole generation has passed.

Where is the proof that Muslims will suffer in undivided India, as propounded by Muhammad Ali Jinnah?

Where is proof that Pakistan is a secular republic in reality?

I would like the genius alumni of Rutgers University to respond.

klutz,

Islam is a perfect religion, no doubt.

However, it seems to me that many of the disciples of that religion rarely follow its sacred teachings. Sure, to demonstrate that they are good muslims, they will dutifully pray 5 times a day & fast during Ramzaan.

If the Islamic Republic of Pakistan was really Islamic in its character, you would have no crime, violence, corruption etc in your country. It should be a better society than most in this world (other than the countries in the Ummah, of course).

National leaders (whether civilian or military) are supposed to be role models. Does the acquisition of power dilute their ability to be good muslims? Every Pakistani leader trumpets Islam like its going out of style. However, it seems to me, their character is no better than (dare I say) we imperfect hindus. Lets keep the leadres aside for a moment. What about the Awaam in the land of the pure? No rapes, no robberies, no dacoitery, no secterian killings ? Have you good muslims suudenly become less than perfect?!Must be all the crime statistics are the work of the evil, underhanded RAW.

At least India`s role model leaders (& its awaam)have an excuse. Most of them are hindus. I mean, how imperfect is that?! We pray to stones & penises for Chris sake! How much value to God can we get from such foul pagan practices? So, obviously, you can understand why Indian leaders & citizens are corrupt, genocidal heathens . Also, as you have pointed out, Indian muslims have been corrupted into imperfection by their hindu comrades, who rub shoulders with them. Christ once said ``Forgive them, O Lord, for they know not what they do!`` So I have a feeling that God (in His supreme mercifulness) will forgive us damned hindus. Or maybe Christ(pbuh) isnt as perfect as Mohammed (pbuh).

The way I see it, you muslims are lucky to be born in a family where Islam is taught. Right from a young age you have been taught a perfect religion. That means, Allah is going to judge you by a more stringent standard, than, say ,an idol worshipping pagan like me. Heck our fathers & their father`s fathers have been depraved! How am I expected to know any better?!

If an Indian (esp hindu) leader & Pakistani leader die at the same time, Allah is going to give that bania a break. But I would`nt want to be in the shoes of the NS & BB types who DARE to knock at the gates of heaven. What face is the average citizen of the LAND OF THE PURE going to show his Maker?! Seems to me his/her conduct is no better than the average citizen in the LAND OF THE IMPURE.

Moral of the story:

Dear muslim brothers & sisters,

You have been BLESSED with the knowlege of a perfect religion. So your ``final exam`` is going to be a heck of a lot stricter than the rest of us who practice imperfect religions. You better start shaping up! So far, it seems to the world, you are`nt faring any better than those pagans who have been cursed to follow the path of darkness.

Cheers

Dear sb,

Please don`t sit back and speak up only when you feel offended. IMHO, that will defeat the entire purpose of any conversation. I hope you will do what you have been doing very well: put forward your viewpoints cogently and effectively.

sb, I have lived in AP for over two years and have visited the Telengana region a number of times. Hence I am reasonably familiar with their caste politics. I am also aware that caste as a construct is far more ill-defined, multi-layered, and dynamic -- a function of time and place -- than it appears from outside. The interaction of state efforts to bring about positive change (for example, through reservations), political expediency, and strategic efforts by various subgroups within castes at various levels and in various places constantly creates a maddeningly complex reality - to which you have rightly drawn attention.

None of this escapes me when I promote, in whatever little capacity I can, sensitivity across caste lines or religious lines. My efforts, again tiny as they may be, are NOT based on ignorance..nor on simplistic every-thing-is-hunky-dory world-views. I know the difficulties, and at the risk of sounding pretentious, I also know many of the arguments back and forth. I CHOOSE to focus on the positive, on mutual understanding, and yes, even that most important and illusive thing of all - love - because I belive that is the only way for us all to move forward as human beings. And since my purpose is to actually DO things, to create ANEW from the debris of the old, a key element of my own life plan is respect. Respect for human beings who may carry categorical labels different from me. More important, respect for those who can teach me things owing to their own unique life experiences (and you surely fall in the latter group).

sb, this respect may seem like excessive `bending over backwards` but this is a moral and strategic choice I have made after a great deal of soul-searching and pondering over worthwhile life goals. That is why if you find anything I write offensive, feel free to educate me...you will find in me a most willing learner. I say that sincerely.

Regards.

EK

PS:

Some of your comments I fully agree with:

``a lot of times people do not take into account the flexibility that the system does allow in reality. And the fortunes and the status of the enitre communities have been changing.``

`` some people may feel satisfieed enough with the guilt trips to ever reach to those issues``

``practically approach the issues if we have the guts to...``

``given the politics our leaders are allowed to practise, any such step would need a lot of noise from diff quarters what with the newly disenfranchised bound to oppose the move and the politicians trying not lose any vote bank and so on and so forth.``

Aeisha # 156

``This definition becomes a little narrow in Hinduism. It is currently narrow in Islam but hat is because the ideal has been steadily abandoned…on the contrary Hinduism is inertly that.``

If Islam regains its ideal of universal brotherhood (not just Islamic brotherhood, which I am sure you would agree must only be a distortion) and Hinduism overcomes its genuine problems of caste etc, we would be be together, don`t you think?

Hard/impossible? may be..but worth trying, aeisha.

Senor Aschettino

Yo tengo algunas preguntas. Quisiera hacer una pregunta acerca de Pakistan ye India.Me siempre interesa si tu conocimiento de Paksitan be Pakistano adquirido.

You are entitled to your beliefs. but if you start preaching virtues better be right about what you say. Now can you pass my little test.