Brahmin and Mullah

This was a good report Mr. Alam, I hope Radha finds success in her endeavors. India should surely concentrate on this heinous practice of segregating.

For a nation progressing well, it seems to be ignoring this core problem for a long time now, hope someone, somewhere, can actually make a change regarding this matter.

Regards

Kiran

sarwari #156 ``This definition becomes a little narrow in Hinduism. It is currently narrow in Islam but hat is because the ideal has been steadily abandoned…on the contrary Hinduism is inertly that.``

Dear Ms. Sarwari, Your views on Islam vs. Hinduism are so off-balance, they remind me of the leaning tower of Pisa (except that the tower of Pisa has foundations, your views as stated in this post have none). All religions have have at their core man`s search for something more profound to existence than it being merely ``one damn thing after another`` as some Englishman put it. To say that one religion is more narrowly conceived than another is an arbitrary comparison - you cannot measure concepts in meters and centimeters (or feet and inches), and there is a basic beauty and commonolity in concepts in the essence of all religions. Man has made a mess in all religions by adding self-serving things to it: there is enough evil and mischief done in the name of religion in Islam as there is in Hinduism or any other religion. This evil is the creation of man, and rest assured that people are not very different across the world.

Thank you. I hope that you will try to get your balance right in these matters and stop this religious chauvinism.

Having largely lived in urban India (sometimes in not so big cities) I gotta admit I never found out what the ``caste`` of my clasmates was. And neither did anyone else as far as I can remember. Of course it would have been different had I been born a dalit, sensitized to the category and the tales of victimhood, past and present etc.

Two principles appear to emerge from the discussions on this board

1.The ``lower`` one`s caste is, the higher the caste consciousness (not unlike being a black in the USA).

2.People who discriminate the most are people who are just one or few steps above these ``low`` castes.

3.The appeal of belonging to a victimized category explains the activities of certain dalit leaders and educated people.

The whole concept of a backward caste (this is different from scheduled caste/tribe) is a political invention post independence. In certain states virtually everyone is backward according to the definition (except maybe 20% of the population).

However go to a village the story is very different. Caste as a category is important and rightly so. It gives a lot of useful info (not that different from religion or language or socio economic status) to the expert from the region.

There are hundreds (thousands?) of castes in India. A person from Haryana will have no idea about caste in Tamil Nadu. and vice versa; except in the foggiest terms. A caste is essentially a subculture with its own combination of language, religious and cultural practices, occupational history and so on. The brahmin/vaisya/kshatriya/sudra/outcastes distinctions is a crude overlay which is not very informative.

I am going to be a contrarian and say that India would be incredibly dull were it not for this diversity. The last thing India wants is a boring monoculture. In that sense the caste system is something to admire, a system that has evolved over millenia and will CONTINUE to do so. It makes perfect sense to marry within ones caste (or religion, race, or language group) all other things being equal. It occurs with blinding regularity all over the world.

One can like the fact that India has so many castes and also simultaneously strongly disapprove of DISCRIMINATION (which has been outlawed since when?) based on caste which mostly occurs in rural areas, particularly in the bihar-UP belt.

What might be interesting would be study if religious conversion helps people from scheduled castes. My hunch is that religious conversion to christianity helped a great deal as the missionaries also are/were influential in establishing modern educational institutions. I suspect conversion of these folks to islam did precious little for exactly the opposite reason. Bottom line is that basic nurtition and opportunities for education are critical variables in moving up the socioeconomic ladder. No matter what caste you belong to.

I am quite sure that *most * well to do Muslims in India or Pakistan are *very * unlikely to have scheduled caste origins. Ponder on this for a while. Caste tends to survive religious conversions, even across many generations. Why? Not because of some rigid belief systems but because of cultural practices and values that survive such conversions.

bottomline: there is nothing wrong with caste as such or retaining one`s caste identity, provided one recognizes modern laws and is sensitive to past follies.

Shankar #151 ``Were the reasons why Ayub & Zia seized power as compelling as that of Musharraf`s coup?``

Same compelling reasons as that of a rapist (if polite company on chowk will pardon the expression). And as with all rapees (my contribution to the English language, thank you), if one is getting raped one might as well relax and enjoy it (again, gentle people like ali1 and urstruly and RSaxena to please pardon the crude imagery).

Dear Writer:

An interesting piece. I am not finished reading your article yet but had to put the following bhajjan? somewhere. Hope that won`t cause any disruption.

Kind Wishes.

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sarwari # 156

..lady, your attitude really impresses me...since i`ve been on chowk- its been relentless

``First, I’m glad to see that you have pathetic spellings…details some other time.``

...you seem to be under the impression that your use of language is very literary...i know mediocrity often comes with arrogance as a package deal...such confidence is of course required to heap on us that literal monstrosity which was your last article...

``Chowk is a place where you can find a pearl after your life’s shell goes through and gathers the right proportion of low earthy material…in this process of changing the drop to a pearl…``

...i also see you have illusions about being a poet..please spare us such pretentious prose..also seen in the sub-sophomoric verse you have published earlier here, with a key so helpfully provided later...thankfully you dont have any such delusions about History (starting with a cap- as your friend ylh always does)

``Including Albert Einstein.``

...here`s a published quote from Einstein on Hinduism:

``When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe, everything else seems so superfluous.``

...on India:

``We are indebted to India for all scientific progress because it is they who taught us how to calculate; without which no progress in science could have been achieved.``

..anNy described you well on the other board :``..stuck up brats like sarwari..``

..most of us are here to exchange ideas, debate...nobody is too conscious of spelling or language..

..btw if you want, i can point out a language/ spelling error in almost every sentence of your this post...

Reply #: 150

Zafar Al-Talib

sorry man... my references were meant to be to bharaitya mussalman (Imran Zulfiqar); not you.

To both Muslims and Hindu:

The adherents of Islam and Hinduism are both humans, both flawed and struggling within themselves to live up to the their understanding of the teaching of their faith. However; this does not mean that significant difference does not exist between these teaching: While Islam holds brotherhood as an ideal, Hinduism hold that an inate difference existes among persons and it`s given that due to this difference some in society are born to serve others. A very different concept of social mobility exists within Islam. No one is going to be converted by anyone on Chowk, but honesty and the rules of conversation suggest that we need to acknowledge our differences to enable us to acknowledge our similarities.

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Reply #: 167

bhartiya musalman

Why dont you transport urself back to the 8th Century Deserts of Arabia (as u said) and then we`ll see how u take Quranic verses.

I didnt say what Quran said should be taken literally only. As u said it should be taken symbolically and spiritually as well as literally. Why do u think Quran is there??? Just to put it in our house as a decoration piece and from time to time we`ll take it out so that we can have this spiritual feeling around us. Quran is there so that we can act upon it.

Ahh.. maybe i havent done that much in-depth study of other religions.Although Mr bhartiya musalman i know enough about other religions to know that islam is flawless. The more i know about what other religion believes the stronger my faith gets.And anyway i dont need an in-depth study of other religions to know what islam is!

I know that i dont need no priest to ask for God`s forgiveness on my behalf!I also know that i dont need no idols to concentrate.I have enough between my ears to know that those man-made idols are just that.Man-Made! How can something which you created yourself has the power to shape your lives.I also know that i dont need to worship fire,or wind,or water. Everything is between me and my Allah.I will ask Him for help and i will ask Him for forgiveness.

I know its disrespectful to criticize other religions and their beliefs but im only doing it in the light of islam to prove a point.When i see deluded ppl like you i feel taht it is my right to speak up!

Tell me something have u ever even gone through the Quran or are u just repeating ur indian beliefs!I dont have any bias towards india Mr imran,i wouldnt care less whether ure a paki,an american or of any other nationality! I have my reasons for not liking indian govt but thats that.i have nothing against india or indians.

Close minded indeed!Your assumption is very inaccurate but then again why should i explain myself to u...u are no one.Its ppl like you (the so-called open-minded ppl) who on one hand drink wine and on the other dont eat pork just coz its HARAAM, degrade islam.i think im better off being a Paki rogue rather than sit on my behind and do nothing other than look for flaws!Tell me something what led u to believe that islam is flawed and what exactly is that flaw.

Forget about this india/paki crap.I dont wnat to hear about my supposedly biases towards india or about what a faithful indian u are.Your patriotism brings tears to my eyes.

Reply #: 152

AD1

If one believes in Allah then he should also believe in HIS words. Quran is Allah`s words. there is nothing supposedly said in it. Allah said that HE will protect HIS book. No one can change HIS words even if one trys to do so.

It doesnt matter if u qualify as a muslim in my eyes. im a nobody.

``it should at least be clear that one can believe in the perfection of One but not the Other.``

If u meant that U believe Allah is perfect but not HIS book then i think you are a little misguided (no offence intended).... but Quran is perfect. No one can change it...ppl can only interpret it differently to their satisfaction.or should i say misinterpret it!

Reply #: 164

egalitarian_brahmin

I never said that pakistan is a secular state. I infact objected on that point. as u said pakistan is known as an ``islamic republic`` and so by definition Pakistan is not a secular state.Period!

What do u think our religion is?Do u think we muslims should worship one God and acknowledge the presence of another! Our main belief is that there is ONE GOD and Only HE should be worshiped.And yes Islam is perfect...it is only some ignorant ppl who make it seem imperfect.!

But anyway Allah is Most Forgiving.Im just here to make a point.

klutz

Reply #: 151

shankar

I cant say that the reasons why zia and ayub seized power were as compelling as that of musharrafs ..maybe they were maybe they werent. If u look at it from an islamic point of view then Zia`s reason for seizing power was very compelling. Why?Because Bhutto was westernizing Pakistan. We are called the ``islamic republic of pakistan`` yet bhutto was more influenced by western cultures. Ayub Khan`s reason for seizing power was that our govt and economy were very unstable. After every year there was a new person in power. And no one was really doing anything for Pakistan. So i think everyones reason for coming into power is compelling in its own way.

Reply #: 169

shankar

There are not many muslims left who truely follow Islamic teachings the way Allah and our prophet wanted us to. Infact im ashamed to say that i am one of those muslims. You are rite that people just pray and fast to show what good muslims they are and yet they dont know about islam and how one should lead his/her life the islamic way.

Who said Pakistan is islamic in its character? Pakistan is just called an islamic republic.Its just a name thats all. Yes Majority of the people who live In pakistan are muslims but maybe only 2% of these people truely follow islam.And i must say our leaders (our role models) are certainly not islamic. In this world only one country is really following the shariah (islamic laws) and that is Afghanistan. Not even Saudi Arabia is following the Shariah.

That is why our country is full of corruption and all kind of crimes.Im afraid there are not many good muslims left.

``Heck our fathers & their father`s fathers have been depraved! How am I expected to know any better?!``

That is no excuse!If you know islam is perfect then why are you still a hindu? Just because u were born in a hindu family doesnot mean taht u cannot convert to any other religion.!Ahh...social pressures..Im not sure that people other than muslims are going to be forgiven Allah Knows best.

Yes i agree with you that those who have more knowledge are going to be judged strictly than those who have lesser knowledge...but believe me everyone will have their piece of cake...it doesnt matter if it be more strict or not.

Btw im not a guy...im a gurl..but my sex isnt important.

i just wanted to let everyone know as most of u think im a guy.

bharitya musulman #167 or something: ``Perhaps you are a descendent of low caste converts to Islam?``

Excuse me but by writing the above sentence you have inadvertantly confirmed that you look down upon people of ``low caste``. You flaunt your Islam around while writing post after post spitting on us Pakis. Is this your Islam then? Where you think you are insulting someone by calling him ``low caste``.

It does not sadden me that a bhartiya musalman can be so

delusional. It is not that he accuses us of being `arabicized` for any

sane person who makes a trip to Pakistan will clearly make it very

clear that Pakistan is far from an Arabicized state. It is not that he

tells me that Pakistan is a failed state just because Pakistan isnt

making ICBMs instead of feeding its poor (besides any sane person

knows that Pakistan doesnot have the kind of abject poverty that

Calcutta for example has), it is not that he tells us that Pakistan is

state without History because even if we didnot (though we have a

rich history) I am a Pakistani and millions of other citizens of

Pakistan are Pakistani because they were born as such and will

remain as such.

It is his (il)logic, his insanity, his ignorance coupled with arrogance,

his confusion, and his out and out bigotry that bothers me. For the

sake of the few Indian friends I have who are truly decent people, I

hope and pray India has more to offer than these fools. For 50

years this Indian still considers himself a `member of the

brotherhood of Islam` and accuses Jinnah `of being responsible of

making Indian Muslims impoverished.`

1) For your information all leaders of Pakistan from Jinnah to

Musharaff have repeatedly said that Indian Muslims are Indians and

Indians only.

2)Pakistan`s distinct culture has never been Arab and that is an

undeniable fact.

3)Fundamentalists, and Khilafatists were opposed to the creation of

Pakistan. Pakistan was created by moderate Muslims who were

previously in the Congress Party.

4) Fundamentalist Parties like Ahrar, Jamaat e Islami, Jamiat e

Ulema Hind were either in alliance with the Congress or Tooth and

nail opposed to the creation of Pakistan.

5) Indian Muslims tend to be much more fanatical and Arabicized

that Pakistani Muslims.

Example I am yet to find an International Pakistani Student Muslim

female who wears the Hijab and Indian one who doesnt!

6) IT WOULD HELP IF PEOPLE LIKE BHARTIYA MUSLIM DIDNOT

MAKE THESE SWEEPING BIGOTED STATEMENTS WITHOUT

EVEN GOING TO PAKISTAN.

7) I AM A PAKISTANI FIRST SECOND AND LAST, and if

renouncing the brotherhood of Islam means being rid of the notion

of being a `bhai` to a confused fundamentalist fanatic like

yourself.... well I renounce ... I renounce .... I renounce!

8) Yasser Latif Hamdani lives in Gamma Sigma Fraternity on 19

Union Street New Brunswick NJ 08901... take Turn Pike from

Holland Tunnel... and take the New Brunswick exit which 8 or 9 ...

then ask for College Ave, Union street is right behind college ave...

I dont scare easily by threats of confused immature cowards!

9) Pakistan is here, and here to stay, and Pakistan will exist to

eternity. It might not be perfect, but you wont find the conditions of

living in Pakistan as bad as Calcutta for example... One day

Inshallah we will make Pakistan a Beacon of light for the world.

10) LONG LIVE PAKISTAN!