Brahmin and Mullah

PM,

I just got the chance to read your post... my personal reason for stopping that Indian from raising his flag at the `Junoon` concert... because Indians have a funny habit of claiming anything good that comes out of Pakistan as `Indian` .... Nusrat Fateh Ali... Junoon .. etc.

No it would not be right if I ripped off an Indian flag in an Indian concert because that would show `hatred` ... I always stand up for the Indian National Anthem at the Indian functions.... but this is a Pakistani Band, which should not be claimed as Indian by India...

God bless the Junoon, they always sing `Jazba Junoon` (the Pakistan Song) whether they are in NYC, LA or New Dehli!

Long Live Pakistan!

re. hobbyty #232:

``Do any of these fit the monotheist tradition`s description of God? Please reconsider.``

hobbyty, let me rehash the gist of my post (#225) to klutz:

Any THING can be turned into an idol, including concepts, and even if we pin attritbutes such as `unknowable, inscrutable` etc. to those concepts. They are no different from visual representations (and sometiems worse) IF THERE IS NO CONNECTION TO ONE`S PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AT A DEEPLY PERSONAL LEVEL. Needless to say, even if the connection exists, the virute in faith is not to be taken for granted. (Wasn`t the faith of fascist German, for wxapmle, really bereft of idols?)

For these reasons, I think that while it is wholly desireable to strive for personal religious enlightenment/finding God etc., criticizing others` metaphysics or glorifying in numerolgoy is both ignorant and self-defeating.

Let me repeat a passage of my #225, emphasis added this time:

``...perhaps you will give some more thought to these matters before you feel feel that sense of superiority associated with the number One, or the IDOLIZED form of the REALITY TO WHICH Allah/God/Baghwan/Yahweh POINT.``

In the end, the reality is a wholly personal experience.

rgds,

PM

To all: apologies for the typos.. my dyslexia seems to be blooming with the daisies.

Old `Hinduvtist` dreams die hard ! Still where were you when Jinnah had accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan in 1946?

Let me state for the record!... we will not agree to any such arrangement with India... we gave you a chance in 1946, you should have taken it. Now Pakistan exists... and Pakistan will exist till eternity!

Advani suggests confederation

NEW DELHI July 7: In a significant remark in the run up to the Musharraf-Vajpayee summit, Union Home Minister L.K.

Advani has suggested the formation of a Confederation of South Asian states, including India and Pakistan.

``I am confident that Vajpayee`s initiative will create a conducive atmosphere in the direction of the formation of a

Confederation of India, Pakistan, Burma, Sri Lanka and Nepal in the days ahead,`` Advani added.

He said the world was witnessing sweeping changes and arch rivals such as the two German republics have now reunited,

reports PTI.

The Sangh Parivar, to which the ruling BJP belongs, had originally propounded the concept of `Akhand Bharat` or united

India, which comprises the whole of South Asia, including Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Advani, however, said he disagreed with the Western perception of Kashmir as a dispute between India and Pakistan. ``We

do not see Kashmir in the context of Pakistan. For us, it is inseparably linked to India`s unity,`` he said.

Advani said the concept of self-determination espoused by separatist groups would prove detrimental more to the interests

of Pakistan as it had diverse ethnic and linguistic groups within its boundaries.-NNI

Intellectual Dishonesty...

Anyone who compares the division of Germany to Pakistan India division... is not only intellectually dishonest, but rabidly crazy!

To Schmuck / Klutz

No religion has to descend to the levels of the Cola empire to quote numbers and say they are th best. That is akin to a Tobacco company claiming superiority based upon numbers.

If somebody has to stoop to numbers to justify their (sic) greatness , then you have lost my attention.Why should somebody care whether there is one god or there is a multitude of them. Where is the evidence. Live for here for now , there is no need to instill fear into people about sins, the hereafter etc. and then leave them with your ``singular choice``. ( eg. AmReeka wight be presented with a liberal version , SE ASia might see the traditional desert version that is reserved for babarians I suppose).

As far as numbers go , I am cynical as are many others, a considerable portion could be through reproduction and many might be led the `` * * * * * *`` way by many inducements.

So prove that the only God is the only god that exists etc. and then beat your chests with your pride.

Sarwari 222 & 223,

Great posts.... very enlightening ... see how better it is when you post like this instead of threatening to bomb India... by making those threats you divert attention from your great intellectual capacity!

I wouldnt worry about Upman, ... he and Bhartiya Musalman are from the same creed... they both came in declaring that all Pakistanis are shallow, and lack in `intellectual rigor` but over the course of time both expose their ignorance, arrogance, lack of objective knowledge, and their bigoted attitude towards Pakistan.

This attitude of arrogance, ignorance, and bigotry seems to be all pervasive in the people towards are east. It is a miracle that people like Eklavya, Dostmittar, Veeresh, Shammi, etc exist in India.

Long Live Pakistan

Bhartiya Musalman 112

Before I can begin to comment on the excrement that you have splashed on this board, I must say, that every time I think we cant go any lower, we hit a new low. Your entry on chowk will indeed be classified as the lowest of the low chowk has ever witnessed.

It is my belief in humanity that makes me believe that no one, and I repeat no one can be as stupid as to make comments like the one you made in 112. Hence it is only logical to believe that you are going through a severe trauma of some sort to your overinflated ego.

It doesnot serve to assume. Anthony Aschettino and myself, we dont frequent the mosque, and secondly bigoted as Mosque Mullahs maybe, they dont bash Hinduism in the Mosques, though that maybe the case with Mosques in India. Secondly we are not wahabis. My mother is a shia for example... and Anthony`s parents are devout catholics. I am a simple Muslim, and a Pakistani first second and last.

I thank you for your invitation to join your imaginary organization. However, I cannot accept your invitation, because I dont have time to play with little kids.

Finally you say ``` I`ll treat you as a brother if you accept the Prophet (PBUH) and Allah)``. How ridiculous is that? as ridiculous as the caste system.``

On my board you wrote (Post 367)

`Firstly, you are my Bhai as I am a devout Muslim and believe in the Brotherhood of Islam.`

Kindly explain this disparity. Now see the problem you have posed? On one hand you are using `brotherhood of Islam` to which I said that I renounce the brotherhood of Islam... on the other hand you are talking of how ridiculous that concept is... Which one is it?

It is increasingly clear to me that you are a product of the confused Indian Educational system which confuses people by muddling the definitions of secular and multicultural.

So, your Ami (mata ji) proposed to Aisha on your behalf and she said no! Why do you have to take it out on Pakistan? Did it occur to you that it might be because you demonstrate very little ability to be mature, or sensible? And now you are forming imaginary organizations (Deen e Ilahi Again) to get back at her?

-YLH

PAKISTAN WILL LIVE ON TILL ETERNITY!

Hi Mona.

I know what you mean. You should read

[``Stability,`` said the Controller, ``stability. No civilization without social stability. No social stability without individual stability.`` His voice was a trumpet.]

Another favourate part...

[``He`s so ugly!`` said Fanny.

``But I rather like his looks.``

``And then so small.`` Fanny made a grimace; smallness was so horribly and typically low-caste.

``I think that`s rather sweet,`` said Lenina. ``One feels one would like to pet him. You know. Like a cat.``

Fanny was shocked. ``They say somebody made a mistake when he was still in the bottle–thought he was a Gamma and put alcohol into his blood-surrogate. That`s why he`s so stunted.``

``What nonsense!`` Lenina was indignant.

``Sleep teaching was actually prohibited in England. There was something called liberalism. Parliament, if you know what that was, passed a law against it. The records survive. Speeches about liberty of the subject. Liberty to be inefficient and miserable. Freedom to be a round peg in a square hole.``

``But, my dear chap, you`re welcome, I assure you. You`re welcome.`` Henry Foster patted the Assistant Predestinator on the shoulder. ``Every one belongs to every one else, after all.``

One hundred repetitions three nights a week for four years, thought Bernard Marx, who was a specialist on hypnopædia. Sixty-two thousand four hundred repetitions make one truth. Idiots!

``Or the Caste System. Constantly proposed, constantly rejected. There was something called democracy. As though men were more than physico-chemically equal.``

``Well, all I can say is that I`m going to accept his invitation.``

Bernard hated them, hated them. But they were two, they were large, they were strong. ]



In this book, everyone is made for everyone else, but everyone is not equal to everyone else, the Alpha`s are the higher castes and the betas the less higher and the Gammas are the lowest: kind of mutants.

None of these groups wanted to be anyone else, and his was done through conditioning. Somehow, it was an insightful experience and I could relate to the culture of the Subcontinent, the society that can trace its roots to stratification as a norm.

YOu said, ``Why I make comment on Hindu bashing is that many of the facts are not confirmed before making specific remarks. Just doing minor and meeting few people one does not become an expert. One has to live through or along with it to know what exactilly goes on.``

True!

...Got to run,

later

Aisha

A question often asked on chowk and this board: if Islam says that a nonMuslim can never be the equal of a Muslim, how can such an Islam be called egalitarian?

Can anyone quote where is there a similar fundamental and necessary requirement wrt caste discrimination in `Hindu` philosophy or belief which is `binding` on Hindus?

And not a single NWFP woman was allowed to caste her vote, reportedly, in the recent LB elections : whether this was due to Hindu culture or Islamic culture or was it due to the caste system?

Is it Islamic culture or Hindu culture not to even know that NWFP women couldnot cast their votes due to threats from Islamic organisations?

``Also Mohommed has word from god ,Allah that it is still better to be a sinfull muslim ,than a pious non believer .You can plead for a muslim but even mohommed cannot plead for non muslims.``

And this is the perfect religion you espouse?

A muslim who is drunkard, rapist, killer is any day better than pious person who doesn`t believe in Islam? And you claim this as the religion of equality? And these are the verses on which this article author`s ``secular`` pakistan is based upon? And India should be following the glorious example of this kind of ``Secular`` Sharia based on the ``Complete`` religion.

And what the heck is this, today we have perfected the religion? How many attempts did god make to ``perfect`` this religion? His trial runs with Judaism and Christianity were not perfect, so we have the ``Perfect/Complete`` religion in Islam? Does it mean this god is incompetent?

Coming back to the question of equality, Should Islam whose main prophet had several slaves, be talking about it? And for those who will quote those verses about manumission, question is why not ban slavery in the first place? The god through the prophet of yours didn`t allow the idol worship in mecca and madina( and elsewhere in the Darul-islam he could have just as well said in one of his pristine verses(Easy to understood accroding to Quran itself) that Slavery is abolised. But no,

he has other pearls of wisdom to give on whether the captured people(POW/Slaves) can be F *Cked.Off-course they can be in Islam or am I wrong? As usual I am ready to corrected, if any info is misleading.

Should Islam whose main prophet, kills a woman`s father and husband and then does the usual thing i.e.,marry her and claims the perks that go with it(or did he claim the perk before he married her?),be talking equality especially Equality for Women? Anyways shouldn`t the most beautiful women be in the booty of the prophet? Maybe thats besides the point, but that surely leaves his bodygaurds/followers on their toes the whole night, while he is doing the sacred deed of consumating his booty.. err.. his Wife?

Anyways` How can the highway robbery be justified? Offcourse with the help of god.

Doesn`t the idol worshippers have any rights? Or is it the sacred duty of the Pure religion/Complete religion`s followers to massacre them wehere ever they see them(StuBaker please do the needful by Quoting the correct verse)? Is this also part of the ``Secular`` government duties of this Tony, the italian American muslim?

Mahesh G

Mahesh, are you seriously suggesting that Hindus worship Idols? If Yes, then what is the argument? and if No, then, what`s the argument?

Were there to be a serious debate within Hinduism about the caste system - do you really think, it would be a pervaisive as it is?

Is it not proper to debate the morality and the ethics of using the system of caste as a tool to hold in servitude the minds and bodies of millions of persons?

DO Muslims and Christians, who have a different conception of the human souls relationship to it` creator, and of redemption, salvation, the role of forgiveness, compassion and the grace or karam of God, not finding converts from among the very same castes?

Are we wrong in condemning it as inhuman and intolerant?

Will you not agree that the system of caste has not been promulgated as law but as an essential article of faith?

Do you not agree that as an article of faith and it`s presence for over two thousand years, suggest that legal remedies are but obfuscation? Did Indians promulgate a law to create Hinduism or caste system?

I do not know how to go about undoing the caste system, but I suggest that greater debate on how base, inhuman and vile is this temporal and eternal system of discrimination, is what is required. Can a person claim that the human soul is devine and then subject the repository of that soul to the most foul servitudes, not just within one life time? Can one, claim love and tolerance towards others and simultaneously suggest that certain persons are born to serve others? That the difference between them and others is such that they may not be touched? that only certain vocations remain open to them and not all?

If the system of caste can be said to be a vedic creation, perhaps vedic teachings should also be used to discredit it in the minds of adherents.

Non-Hinidus cannot effect the dissolution of the system of caste in Hinduism. Only Hindus can and should.

My posts are to point out what I percieve as unfair, self righteous, bigotry directed towards Islam and Muslims and my perception of the caste system as evil incarnate. It is not the case that one or two Indians have shown Ignorance, but rather a good number mask their aversion and hostility towards Islam by seeking to justify their ignorance by taking refuge in and poluting secularism. Narrowly defining secularism as anti Islamism - a disservice to secularism and a show of ignorance. They claim that Islam lays too much emphasis on the ummah and not the brotherhood of all men, if this were true, would there be Muslims through out the world? Is it not anti Islamic and intolerant, to demonstrate hostility towards notions and calls for unity among Muslims? If within Hinduism, ideology such as the birth and existence of ten of millions of persons soley for the purpose of serving those in higher castes are not overcome, and if this discrimination, as an article of faith, carries on, would one not be concerned about how non-Hindus would fare? If Hindus as an article of faith are required to treat their coreligionists with disdain and callousness - can claims of tolerance towards non-Hindus be valid?

Sadna

SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!

THIS IS AN ABSOLUTE OUT AND OUT LIE:

`And not a single NWFP woman was allowed to cast her vote, reportedly, in the recent LB elections : whether this was due to Hindu culture or Islamic culture or was it due to the caste system?`

When did this happen? Another one of your media propaganda? Please refrain from propagating lies. I can assure you that women in NWFP voted in the LB elections. There was one district where women were refrained from voting and that too was done without the consent of the Government. Kindly stop this propaganda now! Two of my aunts have won the local body elections! Do you people forget Benazir Bhutto, was she not the Prime Minister of Pakistan? And didnt the religious parties support Fatima Jinnah`s bid for Presidency? What the hell are you talking about anyway? Sadna, the way you succumb to the devices of Propaganda shows a mischievious machiavellian streak which allows you to even lie in order to get your point proven!

`A question often asked on chowk and this board: if Islam says that a nonMuslim can never be the equal of a Muslim, how can such an Islam be called egalitarian?`

Islam protected its minorities in a time when other creeds killed off those who practised a faith unlike their own. All great things are evolutionary. 1400 years ago, Non Muslims had the protected status... today through evolution in Islamic THought, they should be equal citizen.

Thomas Jefferson in his `Notes on Virginia 1785` talked of the `inherent inferiority of the black race`. Does it mean that the ideals that he espoused and which form the egalitarian basis of the US constitution are invalid? Does the US not derive its spirit from Jeffersonian ideals eventhough today Jefferson would be regarded as the worst racist alive had he continued to espouse the same ideas of White race supremacy. But does it render the spirit of his ideals wrong? Indeed his ideals are the basis for equality for all races, all creeds, all faiths in the US. United States early Franchise was limited to Propertied Free White men... does it undo the spirit of the American Revolution? The declaration of Independence calls the Red Indians `Savages`... does that mean the declaration of Independence is oppressive?



LONG LIVE PAKISTAN!

hobbyty,

IDOLS OF MATTER AND IDOLS OF MIND

You have correctly classified images and icons as false Gods, imposters. Why not go further?

Take a word, say ROSE. As you say it, the image of a rose appears instantly in your mind. Is that mental image real? You`ll agree, its not.

Now take the word GOD. You`ll no doubt agree you have no ACTUAL idea what a GOD looks like. But yet that word instantly evokes on image in your mind - this time based on your conditioning as a muslim. And that is what you pray to.

Are you saying this mental-image is on a `higher` level than an idol-image or icon-image ???

regards,

Ylh,

``Islam protected its minorities in a time when other creeds killed off those who practised a faith unlike their own.``

This is really a outstanding discovery. Really? What happenned to the idol worshippers in Arabia?

What happened to the parsis in Iran during the onslaught of Islam.

``All great things are evolutionary. 1400 years ago, Non Muslims had the protected status... today through evolution in Islamic Thought, they should be equal citizen.``

Is this your personal opinion(I mean they should be equal citizen?) or something has been changed in the Quran, For example see the quotes below.

``Also Mohommed has word from god ,Allah that it is still better to be a sinfull muslim ,than a pious non believer .You can plead for a muslim but even mohommed cannot plead for non muslims.``

Do you believe such outdated verses in Quran be repealed and made void.

Shankar

Totally uncalled for! A diatribe! Perhaps you have been holding that in for too long.

A couple of definitions (from a holier than thou ass//hole): Articles of FAITH

Centrality of Islam is the Quran!

Quran is the revealed word of GOD!

FAITH is not amenable to scientific or logical inspection, it is intuitive, non-scientific.

Please consider the meanings and implications of the word FAITH

If God is perfect, can his revealed word be otherwise? Can it be amenable to change?

You are mixing apples and oranges: The word of God is beyond concepts of eternal -

That Muslims are sinners, flawed, and fall short of the ideal but yet must struggle to live up to the teachings of Islam is a given. I acknowledge the behaviour of some Muslims in Pakistan has been very un-Muslim, I acknowledge that the teachings and interpretations of some ``scholars`` is contrary to, and in many cases highly intolerant of other Muslims and non-Muslims. This cannot mean that Islam itself promotes such.

And is this then enough for good numbers of Indian persons to justify their their hostility towards Islam?

You seem to want to suggest there is a similarity, a kind of parity in the structure of Hinduism and Islam - but there isn`t. These faiths are structured differently, view the world and the eternal differently and operate differently. Consider how Redemption, forgiveness, grace/Karam operate.

Again, if Caste is OK by Hindus, in no way can it be OK by Muslims and Christians. It is the antithesis of those teachings. That outlawing it is not any kind of solution - it is not a creation of law. To say that we have outlawed it is but a copout! By outlawing it, what is prevented is the discussion of it`s merit, it`s origins and questions about the constructs of Hinduism and I suggest to you that this is as big a problem as the caste system itself.

From one ass//hole to another:- please consider!

You are turning this into a Hindu verses Muslim, Pakistani versus India debate. That`s a shame, because you know very well, that a debate about caste and Hindu constructs is long overdue and if fears can be set aside, only good will come from it. Moreover, Hinduism is amenabale to such debate. Ignorance is the enemy, the reward is millions of souls set free.

PM

Convulted and pained.

By definition - the monotheist God cannot be an Idol - Idolatory is false not because of the presence of the Idol but by the worship of the Idol itself. Very many confuse the presence of the idol with the worship of the Idol itself, Christians do not worship the Idol of Christ.

So can Allah/God be an idol - by definition, No!

ylh,

{{{my personal reason for stopping that Indian from raising his flag at the `Junoon` concert... because Indians have a funny habit of claiming anything good that comes out of Pakistan as `Indian` .... Nusrat Fateh Ali... Junoon .. etc.}}}

Wow! If the Indians you`ve come across claim that Junoon & Nusrat are Indian, then they are real idiots. I guess Indians at Rutgers are downright wierd. I dont find anything ``funny`` in that habit.

I`m not interested in either Indian or Pakistani music. Even then, I know that these people are Pakistani. How do I know that? Because I read Indian newspapers ocassionally. Never have I come across any Indian who claimed these people were Indian. In fact, I`ve read 100s of 1000s of Indians filled the theaters eagerly to listen to these performers from Pakistan, not to mention buying their CDs.

I hope you dont mind if Indians love to listen Pakistani performers! I also hope that their CDs & cassettes that Indians buy, give them the financial royalties that they deserve. Despite the fact that I dont think the Indian film industry gets a single paisa from the 100s of thousands of Pakistanis who eagerly watch pirated Indian films--no matter how lousy they are.

I have a few questions re your flamboyant statement of slapping that Indian at the Junoon concert for having the balls to wave the Indian flag.

1)You talked at that person directly, as if that Indian is a visitor at Chowk. Is he? If he is, then please identify him because I`d really like to know from him, why he was waving the Indian flag?

If your answer to this question is ``YES``, then please disregard the next question/observation. But then I`d really have a few questions to ask that individual.

2) If you were just making a statement that you want everybody on Chowk to know what a tough guy you are; & what lenghts you would go to defend your national pride--then I`m afraid that you have the maturity & mentality of a high school kid.

It doesnt take a huge feat of courage to slap an Indian among a sea of Pakistani fans.

But let me give you the benefit of the doubt. I`m assuming BEFORE you slapped that guy, you asked him why he`s waving the Indian flag? And I`m assuming he told you ``because Junoon is Indian, not Pakistani``.

If my assumptions are correct , then I can empathise why you slapped him. Mind you I`m not condoning your slapping him. A more mature response would have probably been shrugging your shoulder & saying `` that kind of idiotic bigotry is your problem, Indian, not mine``.

On the other hand, if my assumptions are wrong , & you are making an ``ass out of you & me``--please let me know; because I have a thing or two to say to you.

Lastly, may I join hands with you when you say ``MAY PAKISTAN LIVE FOREVER!!``? However, may I make a humble request? you`ve made your point about Pakistan`s immortality & your pride for your country & religion(about half a billion times, no less). Your point is well taken (again, about half a billion times) & you have EVERY RIGHT to feel that way (again, I will say that repeatedly about half a billion times). Its ETCHED in our brains---more than you think.

We Indians are`nt as stupid as we sometimes sound. Anybody ,with even half a brain, knows that if Pakistan goes down the tubes, she will pull down India with her. Just because a few idiot Indians put down Pakistan & Islam, doesnt mean theyre right or their predictions will come true.

Ahem , that goes ditto for Pakistani idiots..