Brahmin and Mullah
Anthony J Aschettino June 30, 2001
#251 Posted by shankar on July 8, 2001 6:29:52 pm
Bharatiya musalman/ylh/sarwari?Aisha?-whatever
What is going on? Do you guys know each other (as well as the author)?. Obviously, you are throwing very personal barbs at each other.
Hey, I got no problems that you guys are doing it in this very public forum. In fact, I find it very amusing:) However, if you want your back & forth barbs to be read by all of us, then you better spill out some background info.
I`m not condoning what the Indian muslim said. It seems to me, ylh, that you are suggesting that he is an idiot & thats why he was rejected by the lady/ or he`s trashing Pakistan because `` the unattainable Pakistani grapes are sour``.
I`m warning you---if you want this tamasha to go on in Chowk, you better give us the... er Full Monty:)
ENQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW!
What is going on? Do you guys know each other (as well as the author)?. Obviously, you are throwing very personal barbs at each other.
Hey, I got no problems that you guys are doing it in this very public forum. In fact, I find it very amusing:) However, if you want your back & forth barbs to be read by all of us, then you better spill out some background info.
I`m not condoning what the Indian muslim said. It seems to me, ylh, that you are suggesting that he is an idiot & thats why he was rejected by the lady/ or he`s trashing Pakistan because `` the unattainable Pakistani grapes are sour``.
I`m warning you---if you want this tamasha to go on in Chowk, you better give us the... er Full Monty:)
ENQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW!
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#252 Posted by sadna on July 8, 2001 7:17:00 pm
ylh #249
SHAME! SHAME ! SHAME !
You donot read your own newspapers.
http://www.dawn.com/2001/07/03/top1.htm
``...In Dir and Malkand districts, Tehrik Nifaz-i-Shariat Muhammadi did not allow women to cast their votes. In Dir where 137,000 women voters were registered, not a single woman was permitted to exercise the right of franchise....``
Where does Hindu culture come in? How could such a thing happen? Where were all the Islamic scholars and activists who are supposed to defend Islam`s unique rights for women??
And what about this letter, is this a serious enough situation for young chowk Pakistanis to forget bashing Gandhi and Hindu culture and get on with the real job?
http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/070701/editor/let1.htm
The tension between militant religious groups and NGOs has once again boiled over into confrontation in the NWFP. At the centre of the latest storm is a network of community-run girls` schools set up by Khawenda Khor, a local welfare organization.
Khawenda Khor works with village communities to set up schools in areas where there is a dearth of girls` schools. A number of religious groups have threatened to burn down all such schools in the province if the NGO schools in Karak district are not closed down. Earlier, the organization`s schools in Dir were targeted by extremists who claim the schools are encouraging obscenity. This is preposterous. Banning education for women is reprehensible, and against the spirit of the religion these groups profess to propagate.
Islam in no way discourages, far less prohibits, women`s education. Religion is being used as a cover for tribal customs and notions. The provincial authorities, fearful of provoking a law and order situation, have not heeded requests for security by the terrified staff and students of the schools, which remain shut, nor acted to restrain those openly threatening violence.
Are extremist organizations above the law? Are they free to issue inflammatory statements and fatwas, and even death threats, against anyone disagreeing with their interpretation of Islam? From NGOs to women voters, cable operators, dissenting students and those espousing a weapon-free society, the militants are targeting a widening cross-section of the NWFP population. The outcome of pursuing the current policy of appeasement could well be a steady descent into anarchy.-SHAUKAT KHAN, USA,via e-mail, July 3.
Is a nonMuslim equal to a Muslim or not? You say he should be, how many chowkwallahs discussing on this board, the perfection of Islam as revealed 1400 years ago, accept that?
SHAME! SHAME ! SHAME !
You donot read your own newspapers.
http://www.dawn.com/2001/07/03/top1.htm
``...In Dir and Malkand districts, Tehrik Nifaz-i-Shariat Muhammadi did not allow women to cast their votes. In Dir where 137,000 women voters were registered, not a single woman was permitted to exercise the right of franchise....``
Where does Hindu culture come in? How could such a thing happen? Where were all the Islamic scholars and activists who are supposed to defend Islam`s unique rights for women??
And what about this letter, is this a serious enough situation for young chowk Pakistanis to forget bashing Gandhi and Hindu culture and get on with the real job?
http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/070701/editor/let1.htm
The tension between militant religious groups and NGOs has once again boiled over into confrontation in the NWFP. At the centre of the latest storm is a network of community-run girls` schools set up by Khawenda Khor, a local welfare organization.
Khawenda Khor works with village communities to set up schools in areas where there is a dearth of girls` schools. A number of religious groups have threatened to burn down all such schools in the province if the NGO schools in Karak district are not closed down. Earlier, the organization`s schools in Dir were targeted by extremists who claim the schools are encouraging obscenity. This is preposterous. Banning education for women is reprehensible, and against the spirit of the religion these groups profess to propagate.
Islam in no way discourages, far less prohibits, women`s education. Religion is being used as a cover for tribal customs and notions. The provincial authorities, fearful of provoking a law and order situation, have not heeded requests for security by the terrified staff and students of the schools, which remain shut, nor acted to restrain those openly threatening violence.
Are extremist organizations above the law? Are they free to issue inflammatory statements and fatwas, and even death threats, against anyone disagreeing with their interpretation of Islam? From NGOs to women voters, cable operators, dissenting students and those espousing a weapon-free society, the militants are targeting a widening cross-section of the NWFP population. The outcome of pursuing the current policy of appeasement could well be a steady descent into anarchy.-SHAUKAT KHAN, USA,via e-mail, July 3.
Is a nonMuslim equal to a Muslim or not? You say he should be, how many chowkwallahs discussing on this board, the perfection of Islam as revealed 1400 years ago, accept that?
#253 Posted by egalitarian_bra on July 8, 2001 7:27:53 pm
Here are excerpts from a column -- by a gutsy Muslim woman -- who obviously has no itentions to stay home and roll CHAPAATEES for her husband -- and is not afraid to take on the ``fearsome`` Generals -- her clarion call:
`Generals,return to the barracks`
BENAZIR BHUTTO
History casts its long shadow over Pakistan and its neighbour Afghanistan. The failure to reach a political settlement to the extradition of al Qaeda suspects saw the dark clouds of war descend on the region. The events of September 11 changed the calculus of politics. B-52 bombers zoomed across the sky dropping their lethal load on a country that knew too much war but was unable to make peace.
A public frenzy was whipped up in Pakistan. Many young people were motivated to donate their life savings or send their young sons off to a war ``for Islam``. They were led to believe that victory would be theirs ``once the ground assault began``.
Intoxicated by the idea of triumphing over a super-power, the misguided youth rushed to the camps of charlatans who promised them victory. The battle lines were drawn. Yet, most knew the outcome. Even as Islamabad watched the young men rush off to the arid plains of Afghanistan to defend the Taliban, it was discussing a post Taliban Afghan government.
The Taliban were doomed to military defeat at the hands of a superior military force. The young men who went to fight were abandoned. The fighting started and the Afghan militias melted into the villages. The Arab fighter, without a village to return to, fought to death or took to the mountain caves. The Pakistani, new to the terrain, had nowhere to go. He was captured, brutally beaten or killed. The Pakistani leaders, who provoked them into the fight, were conveniently under ``house arrest``.
As the Northern Alliance advanced, the bodies of unclaimed dead Pakistanis littered the landscape. They were orphaned. None had stopped them from going. None came forward to accept their dead bodies and give them a decent burial. They were abandoned. No one knows what happen!!
Defeat has its own bitter after taste. The earlier bravado of victory in the ground war and the noisy demonstrations for fighting against the infidel ended. A dark silence descended. Few asked for accountability of those who provoked young men into siding with the Taliban that resulted in blood shed. Few wondered about the mothers who lost their sons or the young widows or orphans. The second Afghan war is a double tragedy for the Muslim world. It is a war that never should have happened. Yet, in the noisy Maddrassas set up under General Zia and his intelligence, that second war took its roots bringing in its wake death, destruction and shame.
The Taliban got nothing in their determination to reject a political solution. Voices that once defended them are now silenced. Victory has a thousand fathers and defeat is an orphan. Yet those who supported the Taliban in their irrational defiance bear a moral and political responsibility for the events that took place. They owe an explanation to the thousands of Pakistanis encouraged to join an unnecessary war without a chance of victory.
The Taliban war brought world attention to Pakistan. The sun rose from behind clouds to shine on Islamabad`s rulers. The sun is bright but the clouds are still there.
The world focus is on terrorism. Its shortsigted for the military regime to see the present world sympathy as a solution to the problems of Pakistan.
The largesse of the world community during the Zia era failed to solve the internal crisis. Its unlikely that largesse today can be any different.
It is naive to assume that the billions of aid dollars flowing into Kabul will go to Pakistani contractors. The Establishment`s Taliban fixated policy alienated the Northern Alliance as well as many Pashtuns. There is little love lost for Islamabad in Kabul. Having put all their eggs in one basket, the military regime was forced to plead with the American President for crumbs in the power sharing formula for a post Taliban Kabul.
The heady days of US support in September led the military regime to warn India to ``lay off``. But the war ended too quickly for Islamabad. General Dostum in the North, rather than General Musharaf in the south, became the catalyst to force the Taliban retreat.
Islamabad still remains fixated with external props. In so doing, it neglects the internal realities. Even as the West helps fill Islamabad`s empty coffers, the economic recession continues. Capital lacks confidence in a military dictatorship governing a country with unstable borders in the North and the east and an uncertain direction.
Trade is the key to economic salvation yet it is a key lost in the Maddrassas of Pakistan. Here the men learn to fire guns instead of learning to manage businesses, lives or society.
Yet the lesson of the twentieth century is the reality of economic power. Releasing economic power requires pre-requisites that include freedom, rule of law, deregulation and open competition.
Economic interests play a critical role in building peaceful relations for trading parties. Trading relations increase the joint economic welfare of trading partners.
The ``national interest`` has become the prerogative of the Establishment. Therefore debate is silenced and its forums, such as the Parliament, redundant. Those who challenge the so called ``national interest`` are termed traitors who should be stripped of their citizenship. The pursuit of such intolerant policies breeds a culture of intolerance. Yet that culture of intolerance must be challenged if Pakistan is to become a vibrant state standing on its own inherent strengths. The time for policies of brinksmanship, calculated to bring in external props, needs to stop.
In modern management students are taught that the customer is always right. In modern state craft, the realisation is still to come that the voter is always right. The determination of some Generals to reject the view of the voter makes them part of the problem.
Amazingly, several top military leaders of Pakistan made disastrously wrong predictions on military matters. In 1990, some of the Generals predicted that Iraq would turn into America`s Vietnam. This time round, they predicted that Americans would be caught by the Taliban when the ground war started. A few years back, they predicted that the Kargil adventure would bring the country glory.
The political leadership, untrained in military matters, was correct in warning the people that a superior military force would triumph over an inferior military force. This contrast between the predictions of some leading Generals and the political leadership on the three key issues of the Kuwait occupation in 1990, the Kargil fighting in 1999 and the Kabul war 2001 are clear evidence of the need for political direction in a given country. History notes that War is too serious a business to be left Generals.
`Generals,return to the barracks`
BENAZIR BHUTTO
History casts its long shadow over Pakistan and its neighbour Afghanistan. The failure to reach a political settlement to the extradition of al Qaeda suspects saw the dark clouds of war descend on the region. The events of September 11 changed the calculus of politics. B-52 bombers zoomed across the sky dropping their lethal load on a country that knew too much war but was unable to make peace.
A public frenzy was whipped up in Pakistan. Many young people were motivated to donate their life savings or send their young sons off to a war ``for Islam``. They were led to believe that victory would be theirs ``once the ground assault began``.
Intoxicated by the idea of triumphing over a super-power, the misguided youth rushed to the camps of charlatans who promised them victory. The battle lines were drawn. Yet, most knew the outcome. Even as Islamabad watched the young men rush off to the arid plains of Afghanistan to defend the Taliban, it was discussing a post Taliban Afghan government.
The Taliban were doomed to military defeat at the hands of a superior military force. The young men who went to fight were abandoned. The fighting started and the Afghan militias melted into the villages. The Arab fighter, without a village to return to, fought to death or took to the mountain caves. The Pakistani, new to the terrain, had nowhere to go. He was captured, brutally beaten or killed. The Pakistani leaders, who provoked them into the fight, were conveniently under ``house arrest``.
As the Northern Alliance advanced, the bodies of unclaimed dead Pakistanis littered the landscape. They were orphaned. None had stopped them from going. None came forward to accept their dead bodies and give them a decent burial. They were abandoned. No one knows what happen!!
Defeat has its own bitter after taste. The earlier bravado of victory in the ground war and the noisy demonstrations for fighting against the infidel ended. A dark silence descended. Few asked for accountability of those who provoked young men into siding with the Taliban that resulted in blood shed. Few wondered about the mothers who lost their sons or the young widows or orphans. The second Afghan war is a double tragedy for the Muslim world. It is a war that never should have happened. Yet, in the noisy Maddrassas set up under General Zia and his intelligence, that second war took its roots bringing in its wake death, destruction and shame.
The Taliban got nothing in their determination to reject a political solution. Voices that once defended them are now silenced. Victory has a thousand fathers and defeat is an orphan. Yet those who supported the Taliban in their irrational defiance bear a moral and political responsibility for the events that took place. They owe an explanation to the thousands of Pakistanis encouraged to join an unnecessary war without a chance of victory.
The Taliban war brought world attention to Pakistan. The sun rose from behind clouds to shine on Islamabad`s rulers. The sun is bright but the clouds are still there.
The world focus is on terrorism. Its shortsigted for the military regime to see the present world sympathy as a solution to the problems of Pakistan.
The largesse of the world community during the Zia era failed to solve the internal crisis. Its unlikely that largesse today can be any different.
It is naive to assume that the billions of aid dollars flowing into Kabul will go to Pakistani contractors. The Establishment`s Taliban fixated policy alienated the Northern Alliance as well as many Pashtuns. There is little love lost for Islamabad in Kabul. Having put all their eggs in one basket, the military regime was forced to plead with the American President for crumbs in the power sharing formula for a post Taliban Kabul.
The heady days of US support in September led the military regime to warn India to ``lay off``. But the war ended too quickly for Islamabad. General Dostum in the North, rather than General Musharaf in the south, became the catalyst to force the Taliban retreat.
Islamabad still remains fixated with external props. In so doing, it neglects the internal realities. Even as the West helps fill Islamabad`s empty coffers, the economic recession continues. Capital lacks confidence in a military dictatorship governing a country with unstable borders in the North and the east and an uncertain direction.
Trade is the key to economic salvation yet it is a key lost in the Maddrassas of Pakistan. Here the men learn to fire guns instead of learning to manage businesses, lives or society.
Yet the lesson of the twentieth century is the reality of economic power. Releasing economic power requires pre-requisites that include freedom, rule of law, deregulation and open competition.
Economic interests play a critical role in building peaceful relations for trading parties. Trading relations increase the joint economic welfare of trading partners.
The ``national interest`` has become the prerogative of the Establishment. Therefore debate is silenced and its forums, such as the Parliament, redundant. Those who challenge the so called ``national interest`` are termed traitors who should be stripped of their citizenship. The pursuit of such intolerant policies breeds a culture of intolerance. Yet that culture of intolerance must be challenged if Pakistan is to become a vibrant state standing on its own inherent strengths. The time for policies of brinksmanship, calculated to bring in external props, needs to stop.
In modern management students are taught that the customer is always right. In modern state craft, the realisation is still to come that the voter is always right. The determination of some Generals to reject the view of the voter makes them part of the problem.
Amazingly, several top military leaders of Pakistan made disastrously wrong predictions on military matters. In 1990, some of the Generals predicted that Iraq would turn into America`s Vietnam. This time round, they predicted that Americans would be caught by the Taliban when the ground war started. A few years back, they predicted that the Kargil adventure would bring the country glory.
The political leadership, untrained in military matters, was correct in warning the people that a superior military force would triumph over an inferior military force. This contrast between the predictions of some leading Generals and the political leadership on the three key issues of the Kuwait occupation in 1990, the Kargil fighting in 1999 and the Kabul war 2001 are clear evidence of the need for political direction in a given country. History notes that War is too serious a business to be left Generals.
#254 Posted by egalitarian_bra on July 8, 2001 7:27:53 pm
veeresh #91 By sending in one post after another trying to ``defend`` the morally impoverished and delusional nature of earlier posts, I suggest you stop for a few hours this writing. Try instead to recharge your batteries and to renew your impoverished stock of good judgement and to get rid of your delusions.
#255 Posted by Klutz on July 8, 2001 7:27:53 pm
Reply #: 225
PM
``So you have a ``direct`` relationship with ``your`` Allah. How is that any better or any worse than an interceded one, other than for the reason that your Mommy told you so? ``
Aeisha u can butt in anytime u want :)
I believe what Aeisha said in her post #: 231,#:252 is very true indeed.If we go to a priest we will feel worthwhile infront of ALlah.. we will feel that only pious ppl like priests will be forgiven and only if we contact Allah through them and ask them to pray for us and ask for forgiveness on our behalf we will then be forgiven.
instead in islam we are equal infront of Allah.A sinner can ask for Allah`s forgiveness himself just like a religious person. Everything will be between them.
i believe u are very wrong about Allah being an idol.hobbyty`s post #: 232 clearly points that out.
You are right...many religions believe in ``one great ultimate``.I didnot say im superior just because i believe in One GOD.... as u pointed out christians/jews ... and all kinds of religions believe in One GOD....what i said was that yes our main belief is that there is One God...but what i meant was that islam is the complete code of life. Maybe not in ur eyes but it is in mine.
#256 Posted by Klutz on July 8, 2001 7:27:53 pm
Reply #: 224
AAmir
Ohh so the whole world knows who i am???Damn and i thought i was being very discreet.btw who am i?
``there would be need for another Forum like this just to keep up with the APOLOGIES!!!``
Yep thats really true.. i just apologized for one reason and one reason only (i still believe islam is the best and i will never tire of talking abt it)... in islam we are taught not to disrespect any religion or their God.So i thought i had done that .. and only because of that i was apologizing.Dont worry aamir bhaijaan :P i dont have a sensitive skin... ill try not to apologize again hehe :)
AAmir
Ohh so the whole world knows who i am???Damn and i thought i was being very discreet.btw who am i?
``there would be need for another Forum like this just to keep up with the APOLOGIES!!!``
Yep thats really true.. i just apologized for one reason and one reason only (i still believe islam is the best and i will never tire of talking abt it)... in islam we are taught not to disrespect any religion or their God.So i thought i had done that .. and only because of that i was apologizing.Dont worry aamir bhaijaan :P i dont have a sensitive skin... ill try not to apologize again hehe :)
#257 Posted by Klutz on July 8, 2001 7:59:09 pm
Reply #: 220
egalitarian_brahmin
``Is it really a coincidence that Islamic nations are known to treat their minorities with contempt?``
I was going through an article and it said
[Minorities continue to be threatened in India, whereas not a single non-Muslim was deliberately killed in Afghanistan. The Associated Press reported that in Kabul there is one old Jewish rabbi who stayed to protect a synagogue in the centre of the city. The Taliban did not prevent him from practicing his religion.]
Do u have any proof that minorities are being treated with contempt in islamic countries???Maybe u will be able to provide me with 1 or 2 examples only.Such news are almost non-existent.
``Muslim Minorities want self-determination because they can`t live under ``lesser`` people``
``Muslim Majorities indulge in ethnic cleansing because they can`t live with ``lesser`` people.``
ohh reallly???When a muslim is not given his/her right, when they cant even practice their religion, when they cant even get out of their house without fear... do u think theyd have time to think about being superior to others?I dont think so.ethnic cleansing indeed! Theres always been oppression on muslims by other religious parties.And u say we cant live as muslim minorities because we want to indulge in ethnic cleansing???Boy are dead wrong or what!
``Few Muslim states will grant full political and cultural rights to religious minorities. At the same time, they will not remain indifferent to the treatment of Muslim minorities elsewhere: in Russia, Indonesia, India/Kashmir, China, and the Balkans. Other religious denominations also will support beleaguered coreligionists.``
I believe this report is entirely out of place.Our country doesnt try to curb minorities rights.I believe they are treated fairly by the govt.Why is it that america and other countries raise cry about what muslim countries ``MIGHT`` supposedly do in the near future and not do anything about how muslim minorities are being treated????We dont go around killing people of other religions!!Our muslim brothers dont go around raping women from other religions!!!!No one really cares about what muslims are going through...and u come and paste me this stupid report!!!... i dont even give a damn what these people say... They have this ideological power... they let everyone think that they dont take sides and are letting everyone know what the truth is... Truth my FOOT!!!its better to call them false propagandas!
#258 Posted by Aisha_Sarwari on July 8, 2001 10:27:44 pm
Shanker,
What are you talking about? :$
Aisha
What are you talking about? :$
Aisha
#259 Posted by Aisha_Sarwari on July 8, 2001 10:27:44 pm
Mona.
I`m sorry I fogot to give you the name of the book,
``A brave New world.`` Huxley, Aldous
Later,
Aisha
I`m sorry I fogot to give you the name of the book,
``A brave New world.`` Huxley, Aldous
Later,
Aisha
#260 Posted by PM on July 8, 2001 10:27:44 pm
re. hobbyty #252
``PM...Convulted(sic) and pained.
By definition - the monotheist God cannot be an Idol - Idolatory is false not because of the presence of the Idol but by the worship of the Idol itself. Very many confuse the presence of the idol with the worship of the Idol itself, Christians do not worship the Idol of Christ.
So can Allah/God be an idol - by definition, No!``
Yes, but is anyone and everyone *claiming * to be worshipping Allah/God etc., merely by saying (i.e, using that word) and believing so necessarily *doing * so?
I guess I`m asking the same question as anarayan did in #250, in my own convoluted and pained way. :) Care to oblige with an answer?
P.S. If your concept of an idol is limited to those with a physical presence, don`t bother with an answer.
``PM...Convulted(sic) and pained.
By definition - the monotheist God cannot be an Idol - Idolatory is false not because of the presence of the Idol but by the worship of the Idol itself. Very many confuse the presence of the idol with the worship of the Idol itself, Christians do not worship the Idol of Christ.
So can Allah/God be an idol - by definition, No!``
Yes, but is anyone and everyone *claiming * to be worshipping Allah/God etc., merely by saying (i.e, using that word) and believing so necessarily *doing * so?
I guess I`m asking the same question as anarayan did in #250, in my own convoluted and pained way. :) Care to oblige with an answer?
P.S. If your concept of an idol is limited to those with a physical presence, don`t bother with an answer.
#261 Posted by PM on July 8, 2001 10:27:44 pm
re. klutz #260
``Our country doesnt try to curb minorities rights.I believe they are treated fairly by the govt. ...We dont go around killing people of other religions!!Our muslim brothers dont go around raping women from other religions!!! No one really cares about what muslims are going through...``
There may be a grain of truth in that last sentence, but you have to ask yourself why this might be the case with Muslims and not with say Buddhists, Hindus, Jews or Confucists...
Also, a trip to the Punjab countryside where the workers (tied down by lifelong loans to feduals) are predominantly Christian should reveal you ignorance of the extent to which Christain women are routinely raped, without any chance of redress, as the local administration is firmly in the hands of the feudals themselves.
Alternatively, a copy of one of Amesty Internationals reports could serve to fill those gaps in your knowledge.
As for Muslims not persecuting Minorites, is the blasphemy law almost always not invoked against Christians and Quaidianis -- OR Shiahs, who in the eyes of the persecuters anyway, are not Muslim?
rgds,
PM
``Our country doesnt try to curb minorities rights.I believe they are treated fairly by the govt. ...We dont go around killing people of other religions!!Our muslim brothers dont go around raping women from other religions!!! No one really cares about what muslims are going through...``
There may be a grain of truth in that last sentence, but you have to ask yourself why this might be the case with Muslims and not with say Buddhists, Hindus, Jews or Confucists...
Also, a trip to the Punjab countryside where the workers (tied down by lifelong loans to feduals) are predominantly Christian should reveal you ignorance of the extent to which Christain women are routinely raped, without any chance of redress, as the local administration is firmly in the hands of the feudals themselves.
Alternatively, a copy of one of Amesty Internationals reports could serve to fill those gaps in your knowledge.
As for Muslims not persecuting Minorites, is the blasphemy law almost always not invoked against Christians and Quaidianis -- OR Shiahs, who in the eyes of the persecuters anyway, are not Muslim?
rgds,
PM
#262 Posted by Klutz on July 8, 2001 10:27:44 pm
#: 242
MT
To Schmuck / Klutz
No religion has to descend to the levels of the Cola empire to quote numbers and say they are th best. That is akin to a Tobacco company claiming superiority based upon numbers.
If somebody has to stoop to numbers to justify their (sic) greatness , then you have lost my attention.Why should somebody care whether there is one god or there is a multitude of them. Where is the evidence. Live for here for now , there is no need to instill fear into people about sins, the hereafter etc. and then leave them with your ``singular choice``. ( eg. AmReeka wight be presented with a liberal version , SE ASia might see the traditional desert version that is reserved for babarians I suppose).
As far as numbers go , I am cynical as are many others, a considerable portion could be through reproduction and many might be led the `` * * * * * *`` way by many inducements.
So prove that the only God is the only god that exists etc. and then beat your chests with your pride.
Reply #: 242
MT
Damn i lost ur attention???How heart-breaking indeed!.MT i wasnt really trying to gain ur attention anyway.
why should`nt one call his/her religion the best??i wasnt being proud (though i am proud to be a muslim), i was just stating the fact.As many muslims will agree with me. Well maybe it doesnt matter to u if there is one God or not.... but it does to me and many other ``HUMAN BEINGS`` (not only muslims)
MT
To Schmuck / Klutz
No religion has to descend to the levels of the Cola empire to quote numbers and say they are th best. That is akin to a Tobacco company claiming superiority based upon numbers.
If somebody has to stoop to numbers to justify their (sic) greatness , then you have lost my attention.Why should somebody care whether there is one god or there is a multitude of them. Where is the evidence. Live for here for now , there is no need to instill fear into people about sins, the hereafter etc. and then leave them with your ``singular choice``. ( eg. AmReeka wight be presented with a liberal version , SE ASia might see the traditional desert version that is reserved for babarians I suppose).
As far as numbers go , I am cynical as are many others, a considerable portion could be through reproduction and many might be led the `` * * * * * *`` way by many inducements.
So prove that the only God is the only god that exists etc. and then beat your chests with your pride.
Reply #: 242
MT
Damn i lost ur attention???How heart-breaking indeed!.MT i wasnt really trying to gain ur attention anyway.
why should`nt one call his/her religion the best??i wasnt being proud (though i am proud to be a muslim), i was just stating the fact.As many muslims will agree with me. Well maybe it doesnt matter to u if there is one God or not.... but it does to me and many other ``HUMAN BEINGS`` (not only muslims)
#263 Posted by egalitarian_bra on July 8, 2001 10:27:44 pm
re urstruly #120:
You can`t keep away your dirty hands even from charity organizations. Here is the breakdwon for the 3 organizations that you allege spend ``80%`` of their collections on administrative and collection expenses.
American red cross: 17%
United way : 9%
Unicef : 11%
For reference purposes checkout www.give.org
If ones preference is for particular charities be it Edhi or Burney`s trust thats fine. Making up figures is not.
For a more substansive discussion of charities worth giving and those to avoid, check out the current issue of Worth magazine(Nov 2001). I think the list is online too.
later
-sac
You can`t keep away your dirty hands even from charity organizations. Here is the breakdwon for the 3 organizations that you allege spend ``80%`` of their collections on administrative and collection expenses.
American red cross: 17%
United way : 9%
Unicef : 11%
For reference purposes checkout www.give.org
If ones preference is for particular charities be it Edhi or Burney`s trust thats fine. Making up figures is not.
For a more substansive discussion of charities worth giving and those to avoid, check out the current issue of Worth magazine(Nov 2001). I think the list is online too.
later
-sac
#264 Posted by egalitarian_bra on July 8, 2001 10:27:44 pm
MastRam # 76
I wouldn’t want to get involved in conservatives vs. liberals argument here… I would also like to stay away from discussion of liberal democracies vs. illiberal democracies… These matters have been discussed to death on this site with very little progress towards identifying the real problems that we face in South Asia. Coming back to the questions you pose in your letter, let us not just talk about an economically “just” society… Let us move on and talk about an egalitarian society.
I believe that an in-egalitarian democracy is vulnerable to the alienation which arises from deep inequalities, and the sense of neglect and indifference that easily arises among abandoned minorities. This, I believe, is what is happening to Indian democracy right now. And that is why democratic societies cannot be and should not be too in-egalitarian.
In societies like the USA where a considerable chunk of the society is made up of people who, as you point out, regard equality and liberty as contradictory terms / aims, a balance is achieved by adopting egalitarian policies with redistributive effect (and to some extent also with redistributive intent). Yes, some turn out like Bill Gates and, and yet, some like the homeless guy on the pavement. But the opportunities are there for everybody to turn out like Bill Gates.
jntuece99 #78
[But I am afraid you have generalized a little too much about India.]
May be.
[But we are moving ahead. You might have noticed that there are only some pockets in India where this happens. Many other volatile places in India remained peaceful.]
I don’t disagree with you there. But in a truly democratic, secular society which India claims to be, incidents such as Gujrat massacre are totally unacceptable... The least Indian Government can do is sack Mr. L.K. Advani (we know he doesn’t have the decency to resign) for his involvement with Hindu extremists. That would be a good start if India really wants to move ahead.
shammi #104
[Fairdinkum, have you ever visited India?]
Yes, on more than one occasion… my last visit to India was relatively recently… about a year ago…
Romair #73
[Just wondering if you could give an update in what is going on in Pakistan. How has working in Pakistan been? Any changes from before.....]
Romair: Hi.
Well, prior to my current experience, I had never worked in Pakistan before… So, it was a bit shocking… but now I am beginning to get the hang of things i.e. work ethics, and work culture etc. Things are not as bad as they might appear to many of us in the west or even in the middle east. I wouldn’t advise anybody to invest their life savings in a tech. based business in Pakistan though.
The changes I have noticed:
- McDonalds, KFC, Subway, Pizza Hut everywhere… revolting stuff.
- generally speaking people don’t follow politics and power play with much enthusiasm…
- women in the cities wear sleeveless.
- They go out on dates.
- Every now and then, we have musical concerts in all major cities…
- women dance and so do men…it is shown on ptv and its no big deal for anybody.
What is more frequent than musical concerts, is massacre of people in mosques and targeted and random killings of shias… and that is no big deal either.
Urstruly,
I have run out of time and energy :(
Will write to u tomorrow.
I wouldn’t want to get involved in conservatives vs. liberals argument here… I would also like to stay away from discussion of liberal democracies vs. illiberal democracies… These matters have been discussed to death on this site with very little progress towards identifying the real problems that we face in South Asia. Coming back to the questions you pose in your letter, let us not just talk about an economically “just” society… Let us move on and talk about an egalitarian society.
I believe that an in-egalitarian democracy is vulnerable to the alienation which arises from deep inequalities, and the sense of neglect and indifference that easily arises among abandoned minorities. This, I believe, is what is happening to Indian democracy right now. And that is why democratic societies cannot be and should not be too in-egalitarian.
In societies like the USA where a considerable chunk of the society is made up of people who, as you point out, regard equality and liberty as contradictory terms / aims, a balance is achieved by adopting egalitarian policies with redistributive effect (and to some extent also with redistributive intent). Yes, some turn out like Bill Gates and, and yet, some like the homeless guy on the pavement. But the opportunities are there for everybody to turn out like Bill Gates.
jntuece99 #78
[But I am afraid you have generalized a little too much about India.]
May be.
[But we are moving ahead. You might have noticed that there are only some pockets in India where this happens. Many other volatile places in India remained peaceful.]
I don’t disagree with you there. But in a truly democratic, secular society which India claims to be, incidents such as Gujrat massacre are totally unacceptable... The least Indian Government can do is sack Mr. L.K. Advani (we know he doesn’t have the decency to resign) for his involvement with Hindu extremists. That would be a good start if India really wants to move ahead.
shammi #104
[Fairdinkum, have you ever visited India?]
Yes, on more than one occasion… my last visit to India was relatively recently… about a year ago…
Romair #73
[Just wondering if you could give an update in what is going on in Pakistan. How has working in Pakistan been? Any changes from before.....]
Romair: Hi.
Well, prior to my current experience, I had never worked in Pakistan before… So, it was a bit shocking… but now I am beginning to get the hang of things i.e. work ethics, and work culture etc. Things are not as bad as they might appear to many of us in the west or even in the middle east. I wouldn’t advise anybody to invest their life savings in a tech. based business in Pakistan though.
The changes I have noticed:
- McDonalds, KFC, Subway, Pizza Hut everywhere… revolting stuff.
- generally speaking people don’t follow politics and power play with much enthusiasm…
- women in the cities wear sleeveless.
- They go out on dates.
- Every now and then, we have musical concerts in all major cities…
- women dance and so do men…it is shown on ptv and its no big deal for anybody.
What is more frequent than musical concerts, is massacre of people in mosques and targeted and random killings of shias… and that is no big deal either.
Urstruly,
I have run out of time and energy :(
Will write to u tomorrow.
#265 Posted by tahmed321 on July 8, 2001 10:27:44 pm
Sadna #246 : ``if Islam says that a nonMuslim can never be the equal of a Muslim, ``
This begs the question: does Islam say what you says it says? The answer to the begged question is: No. This must be the umpteenth time I have reminded you to stop writing your bs about Islam or Pakistanis. Doesnt do any good. I think your head is made of wood and you are incapable of understanding this. Instead of wasting months and months on Chowk and learning nothing (as is true in your case), I think you should try to improve your IQ by having your village barber transplant your brain with that of a cockroach.
This begs the question: does Islam say what you says it says? The answer to the begged question is: No. This must be the umpteenth time I have reminded you to stop writing your bs about Islam or Pakistanis. Doesnt do any good. I think your head is made of wood and you are incapable of understanding this. Instead of wasting months and months on Chowk and learning nothing (as is true in your case), I think you should try to improve your IQ by having your village barber transplant your brain with that of a cockroach.
#266 Posted by sadna on July 8, 2001 11:19:53 pm
tahmed321 #268
Personal insults? What took you so long, sleeping on the job perhaps?
Are all chowkwallahs cowards like yourself or someone will admit that nonMuslims cannot be considered equal to Muslims in the general religious tradition?
Apparently its OK to keep abusing Hindu culture as the root of Pakistani problems, but bringing up the perfections of Islam is off limits for the infidels(who ought to shut up and take the cr-p and the blame for your sorry selves).
Personal insults? What took you so long, sleeping on the job perhaps?
Are all chowkwallahs cowards like yourself or someone will admit that nonMuslims cannot be considered equal to Muslims in the general religious tradition?
Apparently its OK to keep abusing Hindu culture as the root of Pakistani problems, but bringing up the perfections of Islam is off limits for the infidels(who ought to shut up and take the cr-p and the blame for your sorry selves).
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