Brahmin and Mullah

In response to Romair #: 26, I agree that economics is the name of the game in a major sense. I also agree with you that it is quite interesting that India while now being much less stable socially than it has been in former years is indeed much more powerful and successful economically since the former usually has a good deal to do with the latter and vice-versa. Which is why I strongly support the stability that the Musharraf government has brought in, and why although I am a fan of democracy I think that if he has to stay in power for another 5 years or more, it is neccessary in order to get REAL democracy going and to revitalise the economy. Both Indians and Pakistanis alike will agree that Pakistan`s economy has seen better days, but there is no reason to think that by working with the IMF/ World Bank and bringing in foreign investment from the Diaspora (something stability makes all the more attractive) that Pakistan cannot turn things around. Indeed, much of the problem with the economy in Pakistan lies with India`s economic boom and subsequent military buildup.

Pakistan must keep her military on par with India, or at the very least must keep it from falling behind to the point where India holds a clear upper-hand. However, the economic boom in India has allowed her to proceed with upping the defense budget and this has forced Pakistan to do the same. Of course, Pakistan does not have as much money so it eats into her economy much more than the military upping does India`s.

I ask earnestly if anyone has studied why Sadat in 1973 went to war against a militarily superior Israel? If you have, you know that it was because he saw that with Israel continuing to build her military up, there would be a time in the near future when the disparity was so great that Israel could do as she pleased with foreign policy. So, Sadat knew that although he had a weaker military, he had to act now because he was as close as he could get to parity. I am not saying this will happen in the Subcontinent, but we should keep this in the back of our minds when we look at the current situation.

Also, the puppy chow at Rutgers is very good :) If you look up our track record (i.e. students at Rutgers), we have always been extremely politically minded. On both sides of the ball, mind you.

Tony

:)

Dawn 02 July, Opinion, Tariq Ali`s Memories

``after 1977, Pakistan also exported carefully selected prostitutes, recruited from elite women`s colleges (to the Gulf). Islamic solidarity knew no bounds``.

Tariq Ali, the Indian Agent

Tariq Ali, the Hindu

Tariq Ali, the Islam Hater

Tariq Ali, the lier

Tariq Ali, the homosexual

Tariq Ali, the western propandist

What else are they going to throw at him?

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re: Romair # 26

Can you please clarify how Hindu culture dominates Islamic culture in Pakistan?

Loosely, I understand culture to be generalized modes of behavior, thought, and being.

What ``Hindu`` patterns of thought, behavior, and being do you see dominating Islamic patterns of thought, behavior, and being in Pakistan?

I hope you are not just refering to Baisakhi :)

Regards.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

re: Tony # 24,

Tony, people kid around here about Rutgers. Don`t let that get to you. It is a darn good school.

I am still a bit confused about how you created that `microcosm` of India, and what you think this `microscosm` you have constructed actually reflects about India. But I will let these issues pass.

PS: I think your heart is in the right place. Just focus on Pakistan. And dont get oversold on liberalism :)

The author says:

[Pakistan is now taking steps to ensure that there is no confusion on the part of the world; that Pakistan is indeed a secular state founded by Muslims and not an Islamic state. It is up to India to follow the lead on this issue.]

How should India follow the lead of Pakistan in becoming a secular state?

Should India enact the Manusmriti as the law of the land as Pakistan has done with the Sharia?

Or, should the Sharia be implemented in India to follow the ``secularism`` practiced in Pakistan?

The only parade that Pakistan can lead is the one where at the end women get stoned to death for adultery, get thrown in jail for the crime of being raped, and get killed by their families for violating the family honor as interpreted by the menfolk.

Keep calling us Hindustan, as you did for the first 40 years of your existence, unable to accept the fact that India is a country for all religions and for no religion. Now that your worst fear has come true in the form of a BJP government (though they haven`t changed a single law regarding minority rights), you all have this new-found love for secularism.

You want secularism? Let me bring you up to date on the events that have unfolded in the last 3 days in Tamil Nadu. The Brahmin chief minister Jayalalitha arrested the previous chief minister and his son on corruption charges. The governor of the state, former Supreme Court justice Fathima Beevi, backed Jayalalitha. The arresting officers were led by Deputy Inspector General Mohammad Ali. You tell me the name one single individual of minority religion in Pakistan who has reached the ranks of a Supreme Court justice, governor of a province or the rank of DIG of police. Then you can talk about secularism in Pakistan. I can show hundreds of such examples in India.

You make me puke with your self-righteous crap.

Keep deluding yourself. It is a better alternative to reality than alcohol.

CHOOSING GOD

Hamidm,

You wanted to know about how the hindus choose a god among the millions. It is all based on performance. Jayalalitha, a convicyed corrupt has become the chief minister of tamilnadu, all because of the blessing of guruvayoorappan , a keralite god. In return she has given an elephant to the temple, no we dont sacrifice elephants. Now in her political circles the stars of the kerala god goes up, more money to the temples. Sorry in kerala we cannot use this money to support the hindu jihadists, temples are managed by the government, some times by the marxist government. From hindustan times of today

``Jayalalithaa, who came here to fulfil her election vow worshipped at the temple, had a special pooja performed and offered a tusker to Lord Guruvayoorappan.

Meanwhile, normal life came to a standstill in the temple town following the dawn-to-noon hartal called by the BJP-led National Democratic Allience (NDA) to coincide with Jayalalitha`s visit.``

Regards

jay

Brahmin and Mulla ?

The Islamic Concept Of Reincarnation

By SULTAN SHAHIN

THAT reincarnation is a Hindu belief is well known. But it is not as well known that belief in reincarnation is central to Islam as well. The Quran refers as Kafir (non-believer) anyone who does not believe in the possibility of rebirth. The great mystic, Hazrat Jalal-ud-Deen Rumi, describes the process of evolution through reincarnation: ``I died as mineral and became a plant, died as plant and rose to animal, I died as animal and I was Man. Why should I fear? When was I less by dying? Yet Once more I shall die as Man, To soar with angels blest; But even from angelhood I must pass on....``

Another great mystic Mansur al-Hallaj, famous for his formulation, `Anal Haq` (I am The Truth) had written: ``Like the herbage I have sprung up many a time on the banks of flowing rivers. For a hundred thousand years I have lived and worked in every sort of body``.

The Holy Quran itself makes it clear: ``And you were dead, and He brought you back to life. And He shall cause you to die, and shall bring you back to life, and in the end shall gather you unto Himself`` (Sura 2:28). The word `you were dead` can only mean that we had lived before becoming dead. And the words, `in the end shall gather you unto Himself`, could very well mean the attainment of moksha rather than what is usually interpreted as an eternal life in Heaven or Hell. Some other verses from the Quran are also relevant: ``As the rains turn the dry earth into green thereby yielding fruits, similarly God brings the dead into life so that thou mayest learn`` (Chapter 8 - Sura Iraf Meccan Verses 6-6-13). ``And He sent down rains from above in proper quantity and He brings back to life the dead earth, similarly ye shall be reborn`` (Chapter 25 Sura Zakhraf Meccan Verses 5-10- 6).

Dr M H Abdi (Theosophy in Pakistan, October-December 1964; January-March 1965) quotes commentator Ayashi on the authority of Imam Baqer as saying that the ultimate referred to in the foregoing verse really means Rajat (reincarnation), or ``going up and down``, and that Rajat means rebirth in this world before Qiyamat (resurrection on the Day of Judgment). Abdi again quotes commentator Qummi quoting Imam Jafer, the well-known authority in the Islamic world, to say that (this) means rebirth to be undergone before entering the Heaven world.

In a series of articles, `Reincarnation: Islamic Conceptions`, Dr Abdi explains how the idea of reincarnation gradually lost popularity in Islam. The defensive wars, which have been described as Jihad or holy wars, which the Muslims fought in the early days and the wars of conquests (therefore not holy) which the Muslims fought in later days gave a different shift to Islamic teachings. Philosophical, mystical and ethical teachings received an impetus in the first phase, but they took on a subdued existence in the later phase. During this phase the republican character of the State changed into monarchy and the the saints and philosophers no more enjoyed the exalted position they had earlier.

A subject like reincarnation demands a subtle mental attitude. It entails understanding of the higher planes of consciousness, the laws of cause and effect and the working of the laws of evolution. The monarchs had no interest in such subjects. Like so many other teachings, reincarnation was confined to the study and attention of students of Sufism.

However, there is no danger of a Muslim being called a heretic if he believes and expresses himself in favour of reincarnation, concludes Abdi. Many Muslims look at the concept of rebirth in the context of resurrection on the Day of Judgment alone. But it needs to be remembered that the concept of Day is derived from the concept of Time and our concept of Time is an entirely earthly concept. As the Holy Quran is the word of God, the concept of Time contained there must be a Divine concept. The Divine, let us remember is Eternal, Timeless. For all we know, we may already be going through the Day of Judgment.

(Based on a paper presented by the author at an International Seminar on Science and Metaphysics organised by National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore and the John Templeton Foundation, USA. 24-27 June 2001).

To Dost mittar # 36

you have got some part of it right (regarding the caste). There is also an added element of flux attached to this caste system. Contrary to the popular belief, Caste system is not so rigid in the sense that various individual communities moved across these castes depending on their status and power in the society. When one community became powerful either politically or otherwise, they tended to upgrade themselves in the hierarchy of castes.

For example, The `Reddy` (VJ Meghna reddy to give an example ;-)) in South India originally were farmers and belonged to shudras. But as they acquired political power, they started passing off as Kshatriyas which was accepted by other sections. Usually this shift is accompanied by the espousal of those customs and traditions as required. This process is called Sanskritization (coined by Late M N Srinivas).

There is also a different kind of flux in the hierarchy of castes. Sometimes the `lower` castes gained economic, social and political power and they became the most important community in that part of the country. This is evident in many communities and more so in the Post independence period. The difference in both the cases is that in the former, the transition is made formal by the community embracing certain rituals.

The pioneering work done by M N Srinivas gives a lot of insight into the dynamics of caste system in India.

Cheers,

jntuece99

Dost Mittar #36

You have aptly summed up the thoughts of the majority of Indians on this issue. Thanx

Sincerely

re. Ylh:

``Oh by the way, to the Indian who was trying to raise his flag admist Pakistani flags at the Junoon concert, I was the one who slapped you.``

There is a limit to how much Nationalistic defensiveness can be seen as normal... and this is goes waaay beyond that threshold. It is both sickening and cowardly (would have been something if you`d done it to an Indian in a predominantly Indian crowd).

Yasser, it is one thing to spew vitriol and be verbally abusive as on the chowk (The Lahori spunk and all). The jazbaati lack of restraint in this act is, however, quite disturbing, to say the least. And you have the gall to talk about fundoo extremism!

Long Live Pakistan Indeed! The cry has taken on a new dimension of desperation.

re dost-mittar #36:

Your defence of the casteism in Hinduism reminded me of a conversation I once had with a British friend of mine who had spent quite a bit of time in America. He was complaining about the lack of intelligence exhibited by the `common` American. His thesis was that in America anyone with a modicum of intelligence did not remain poor for long. Anyone stuck in menial jobs seemed to be somewhat lacking in the upper compartment. This was in stark contrast to England where the so-called class system ensured the presence of capable people in even unglamorous jobs. I`ve found a grain of truth in his sweeping generalization whenever I`ve had to get my car repaired :)

later

-sac

To all those `explaining` the caste system.

Dear friends, I know some of the relevant arguments. I also know that you wrote all those posts with the noblest of intentions. But I have a chhota appeal.

Let us do NOTHING that may be miscontrued by people less informed than you in this matter (or less intelligent than you) as being supportive of the caste system. And no reinterpretations, please!

Let us focus on uprooting this evil practice, on killing it, and burying it so deep that it does not rise up again. One can not reinterpret ideologies that divide humanity; and then order them hierarchically in God`s eyes.

It was our shame that we fell into this intellectual and moral trap, and became encaged in dogma that we mistook for religion for thousands of years. If we have to live as real human beings, we must break this cage once and for all.

I would first like to clarify what I think is a common misconception here... that is namely, that I am basing my entire assumption of India and Hinduism on one tape out of a series and on one family out of a half-billion. This is entirely not true. First, I have a minor in religion that would have been a major if not for the lack of a few 100 lvl classes that were not offered the semester I graduated. I have studied Hinduism from a practical point of view and from a scholastic point of view. I have read copious amounts of literature on Hinduism both by believers and non-believing scholars (I do the same with every religion btw) and have talked with Hindus of ever class from Brahmin to untouchable. But enough of this, I just wanted to point out that I am not just talking out of my keister.

My essay is in essence an attempt to point out that the rest of the world views India as a benevolent ``Gandhi-esque`` state. I am not saying that India is evil, far from it. Muslims are not the only ones, however, who have religiously inspired visions of a future where they are dominant in a certain region. Talk to a Muslim in Palestine about who the #1 enemy of Islam is and the answer will most likely be ``Israel``. Talk to a Muslim in Pakistan and you may very well get ``India``. This is because in both regions Muslims feel threatened by a neighboring state, the former because of her superior military power and the latter because of her superior population and economic might.

Sorry for the percentage inaccuracy, but I was saying it more on a grounds of ``the overwhelming majority...`` and 90% is usually a # I use to define that. But, since people don`t know my idiosyncracies yet it`s not really right for me to use them.

I would also like to quickly point out to some of those who like to criticize Pakistan`s historical politics that the Cold War and American interests in the region sadly had a huge effect on her development. Especially during the 1980`s as the whole Afghan war broke out... India never had such foreign influence (unwanted or wanted) and so it`s not entirely fair to say that Pakistan was allowed to develop the way she wanted.

Also, Eklavya #: 39 I know, my friend YLH has set a high standard for us Rutgers Alum to step up to :) And thx, I will try and keep the focus on Pak and keep the liberalism in check... it is hard at times tho :)

Well written article.

some observations:

1. Being a Hindu, I have this to admit. It is an expensive religion. Many pujaries/priets will take you to cleaners. When on vacation to India, all my $5 grand was gone spending on relgious rituals.

However, I must add that all the religions have many forms of rituals and I am sure in most cases it is expensive.

2.Being a Hindu is also a lot of fun. Contrary to what the author says, there is absolutely chaos in my religion. Since we believe idol/god/goddess worship, we do so directly. we do not need middle-men or brokers and no specific holy book. Islam has Quran and Bible for Christians, Torah for Jewish folks; Supposedly, there is Gita for Hindus, but wait, there are more competing books that compete with Geeta. I can pick and choose whichever God I pray or I can elect not to pray.

3. Hinduism offers diversity. Because we have female Goddesses, we have the means to respect females in our society. Women are adored in Bengal because of Kali and Durga, Parvathi and Durga are worshipped all over.

Some Gods are dark and others have fair complex.

Krishna is black while Rama is not. Again, I can only tell this from seeing pictures.

In South India, Ravan is worshipped much more than Rama. Afterall, Ravanna worshipped Shiva to gain immense powers. Legend has it he misused it.

Still he went to heaven after being destroyed by Rama.

* * *

What I have noticed is that criticism is absolutely denied in many religions. If anyone dares to speak his/her mind, there are many clerics who are more than willing to label them so and so . This prevents constructive learning. How can one be a ``scholar`` if there is no objectivity in understanding.

It is unfortunate that religious fanatism is either ``my way or highway``. I guess this is what Musharaf meant when he spoke to clerics.

Regards.

Pardesi,
Students, physical force and future politicians, tolerance, democracy its all in here :)

An anecdote related by someone who retired as Professor and Head of Dept in a prestigious college in a city in India. In a college function which happened to be held outdoors, the invited chief guest was someone important, Members of a students organisation, to express their protest against the chief guest and his political views, began to create havoc among the spectators by shouting slogans and setting off fireworks within the crowd.

When general appeals from the podium didnot work, to restore order, our professor, a very mildmannered and softspoken person and rather sedentary in his habits, and his colleagues decided to take matters in their hands. They went up to each trouble maker, caught hold of an arm each and physically marched them off the college grounds. I donot doubt there would have been some scuffles..

Many years passed, our professor retired and then some years ago decided to open a tutorial college( privately-run coaching schools which are attended by many private students and those preparing for competitive exams).

In connection with setting up his college, he was required to meet the state Education Minister and get his signature/approval on some paper.

So he made an appointment and went. When he entered the room to meet the minister, the minister stood up respectfully, folded his hands and enquired how ``Professor Sir`` was? The minister was respectful throughout the meeting and he signed the approval ofcourse..

And who was the Education Minister? Ironically, one of the troublemaker college students, one of the leaders whom our professor had personally caught hold of and `handled`, years ago.

And the former student is still the leader of an important coalition partner and a minister in the recently-elected state government. I think he got something else( maybe irrigation) this time round, this time Education and apparently IT affairs is with the state Muslim League, I am not absolutely certain.

Disclaimer : this is not to suggest that political-aspirant Rutgers students do anything which invites anyone to physically restrain them :)

The difference between a brahmin and a mullah is that the mullah is mindless jihadi:

An important aspect of militant leadership is the premium on successful leadership, on success in life. Badshah Khan said that if a Hindu renounced wealth or office, he commanded greater respect. But if a Muslim did the same, he was viewed as something of a freak.

Once Shaukat Hayat Khan, son of Sir Sikander, Prime Minister of Punjab, called on Jinnah. Jinnah’s advice to him was: “Go and make money. Muslims don’t follow poor leaders like Hasrat Mohani or Zafar Ali. Muslims followed me only when I had collected 50-60 lakh of rupees.”

And since Muslim politics revolves round the rich, the militant and the successful, the people as such do not count for much.