Brahmin and Mullah

sac #45,

In the mid-90s, the U.K magazine, The Economist, published a statistic that in the US, if one did any one of three things, one was virtually certain (greater than 95% probability) to climb out of poverty.

1. Complete a high school diploma.

2. Get married and stay married.

3. Keep a job (any job) for an year

(In case 3. seems obvious, it is not). The point is that statistically, if one shows commitment and hard work, in the US, one is rewarded.

There are no doubt a lot of barriers that have been erected against 1., 2., 3., for some people.

-Arun Gupta

Acheron #35: I recently had a discussion with a couple of very senior retired Pakistani bankers, the other day. These guys have made their name on the international banking arena.

They seemed to suggest that Musharraf and his ideas, in some form or manner, needs to stay in power for ten years. They suggesting that currently the big Pakistani businessmen are taking their money out of Pakistan, since they are used to working in a corrupt system, and are thus not used to paying taxes. However, within four years or so, there will be a level playing field, and these people will start investing again.

The IMF has been saying the same, when it states that the current economic policies need to continue (translated, the Musharraf govt. needs to have influence over the political affairs of Pakistan, for a while). Pakistan`s economy is, rightly or wrongly, completely in control of the IMF. So whatever happens anywhere else is somewhat immaterial at the moment. Currently Pakistan has more credibility with these lending institutions than ever before. Pakistan has never received three successive tranches in his history, uptil now. This is a very good sign.

I have a lot of faith in Shaukat Aziz. I think he, and not Musharraf, is calling all the economic and social shots in Pakistan (it is impossible for a General to have in-depth knowledge of civlian matters like economics and finance). He is one of the most successful, if not the most successful, South Asians in the private international finance arena. He made it to the top of financial world with no international qualifications (just an MBA from IBA, Karachi).

Due to above, I am all in favor for Musharraf and an NSC keeping watch over the political system for a while. However, it is very imporatant for the military govt. to leave in three years. Otherwise, they will lose all credibility. Working in civilian depts. adversely affects the soldiers, also.

``Pakistan must keep her military on par with India, or at the very least must keep it from falling behind to the point where India holds a clear upper-hand. ``

I think Pakistan needs to do exactly the opposite. India`s military ratios are now completely out of proportion with respect to Pakistan. There is really no way for Pakistan to catch up. And it is pointless to attempt to do so. Pakistan should just keep a credible nuclear deterent, and actually downsize its military, or utilize the military in other areas, like rural education. This is exactly what seems to be happening. While India is raising its military budgets by gigantic percentages, Pakistan is lowering its military budget. In a sense, this is really a watershed point in Pakistan`s economic history.

``I ask earnestly if anyone has studied why Sadat in 1973 went to war against a militarily superior Israel?``

It is interesting you should mention this. The 1973 operation was an extremely brilliant operation militarily by Sadaat. The Israelis would have been dead had the Americans not moved in. However, I don`t think the same case applies in South Asia. India will not attack Pakistan, as long as Pakistan has a credible nuclear deterent. It would be foolish for it to do so. Similarly, it would be foolish for Pakistan to attack India. The current Indian policy has been to get Pakistan into an arms race, and drain it economically. However, Pakistan has wisely stepped out of the arms race.

I am not sure what India will do with its massive military budgets now. It will never have a powerful enough military to challenge China. And its military is already big enough to challenge Pakistan. What these massive military budget increases are doing is making India`s poor poorer, and increasing the chance of nuclear conflict in South Asia.

Eklavya #39: ``What ``Hindu`` patterns of thought, behavior, and being do you see dominating Islamic patterns of thought, behavior, and being in Pakistan?``

Have you ever attended a marraige in Pakistan? If you haven`t, then I would encourage you do so. After that, attend a marraige in Saudia Arabia or anywhere else in the, ``birthplace of Islam`` Arab countries. Apart from the religious obligations like mehar etc., the customs of marraiges in Pakistan are far more in line with those of India than those of most other Islamic countries.

Clothes, music, behavior, movies, social customs etc. in Pakistan are more in line with India than other places. I think one can safely say that the culture the Muslim invaders brought in with them was generally absorbed into the Hindu culture (there was no Indian culture at that time), and not vice-versa. This culture, with its philosophy and though patterns, subsequently ended up in Pakistan.

There are siginificant psychological hang-overs in Pakistan from the Hindu philosophy. There has always been an undefined caste system in Pakistan. Even now in Pakistan, people rarely marry below their baradari (a watered down version of caste), even though Islam is totally against the caste system. People still ask for massive amounts of dowry, although in Arab countries the groom dishes out the dowry, not the bride. Divorce is still a huge taboo for women in Pakistan, although in Islam there is absolutely no taboo attached to divorce. Etc. Etc.

Also, in Pakistan, the common citizen (even the educated one) is still more than willing to accept corrupt powerful people ruling over him/her indefinitely. They tend to substitute power for credibility. This is also, in my opinion, a psychological hangover from the Sub-Continent being ruled for 1000 by invaders, and our forefathers willingly accepting them as rulers, without challenging them (not counting my Rajput ancestors :), who apparently did challenge authority).

Perhaps the above are not directly a part of the Hindu philosophy, but definitely a part of the Hindu history, culture, and thought.

Romair #72 You make good points. You are wrong when you say: ``Also, in Pakistan, the common citizen (even the educated one) is still more than willing to accept corrupt powerful people ruling over him/her indefinitely. ``

I am one of these ``common citizens``, and educated one, and I am not willing to accept ``corrupt people`` or anyone ruling over me. What do you suggest I do: try to gain access to PM and explain to him that I dont like to be ruled by him or anyone else? (And PM is not even corrupt, so far, and is probably the best bet we have in Pakistan for now anyway).

And do you seriously think Arabs are different? Indeed, if there is a corner of the world where the rulers stay in power by virtue of force rather than by virtue of a democratic process, it is the Middle East.

I think you need to learn to respect the ``common citizens`` of Pakistan more.

It must give a nice feeling to blame every wrong in their society on someone else, namely Hindus. It sure beats voting!

Hindus and Hindu culture are responsible for all Pakistani dictators, rigged elections, corruption and misuse of funds, nepotism, lack of collective efffort to build institutions, AK-47 culture and urban violence.

Its logical then, that the author of this article emulates the example set by some of his `elders` blames the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Pakistan on Hindu priests, too.
Zia was a reincarnated Hindu and the Hudood laws, Federal Shariat Appellate court are all remanants of Hindu culture, as is blasphemy(a purely Hindu concept) and the Council for Islamic ideology(a collection of Hindu priests).

The same with Taliban, they are the original `Aryan` upper caste, afflicted with the Hindu rigidity with social structure, and making their women suffer in the throes of Hindu barbarity(remember Islam is very modern regarding women`s rights, unlike the pagans). Their drug culture derives mostly from the Bholenath rituals of imbibing bhang.

I am sure Hindu priests and Hindu culture are at the root of all Middle East blood letting(oh no thats a Hindu-Zionist preistly conspiracy).

Turkey clamped down on Islam in politics because of the local Kurdish version of Ramayana. The Khilafat is nothing but Ram rajya in disguise and armed jihad from GIA Algeria to Hizbollah in Iran to Mindano in Philipines is nothing but mistaken Bajrangis inspired by Hanuman. Or oh no, thats the true Muslims resisting Hindu culture, unlike passive and defeatist Hindus found in the REAL sham democracy on the subcontinent.

Or maybe the Hindu Cholas messed up the whole South East Asian Muslim scene, by exporting Hindu culture and making Malays for instance, discriminate against nonMalays and what to say, the violent imposition of Sharia in Nigeria is because Indian emigrants to Africa have totally messed up local cultures!


I know now, if any heinous Indian or Westerner questions, the need to bring Islam into the affairs of the state and they are berated for being `anti-Muslim`, it is solely because Muslims are mistakenly defending their Hindu roots.

Oh, and I forgot, Ahmeddiyas cannot be enough condemned for their Hindu roots displayed by their easy willingness to be misled by Hindu guru culture.

And lets see Benazir could do what she did because of the devi culture? Zardari was corrupt because he was the traditional damaad extracting the maximum from sasur, yes.

Bhutto sported a Brahmin`s knot in secret by which he was hanged, Nawaz Sharif`s meddling in Army affairs was a case of caste antagonism between the bania and the kshatriya. Fighters were generally traditional rulers in `Hindu ` culture, witness half a dozen military coups??

Lack of stable Constitution in Pakistan : nothing but the Hindu refusal to stick to one holy book.

The only reform seen so far in Pakistani culture with respect to lingering Hinduness is the readiness with which jihadis cross the boundaries and seas, now thats what you call opening up the closed Hindu society (where you lost caste if you do so) to the world in the manner of `go to China.. etc``

Re macgupta 73

And not to mention, there are also folks out in rural Tamil Nadu whose optimistic and hopeful parents foisted names on their children such as Roosevelt, Rockefeller, Bulganin and Lenin. Wasn`t there this farmer near Chandigarh who named his son after Skylab around the time it was supposed to hit the ground and North India was mentioned as a possibility.

re: Romair # 72

Romair bhai, without meaning any disrespect, I must say you made me laugh aloud. Because that is exactly the response I was expecting. This is THE view I see so often articulated in even the best of Pakistani newspapers and online magazines: everything good in Pakistan is attributed to pure Islam, everything `bad` becomes the burden for Hinduism to carry.

Perhaps my Pakistani friends have truly come to believe these things. Tony`s article carried the same flavor. But a closer look will tell you that such a view is completely wrong and is part of a larger mess we are all in - there is a need to put the other down any way we can.

I will expand on this a bit later when I have some more time.

Regards.

EK

Jay # 69,

To add to it further, India boasts of the World`s largest affirmative action programme for a section of its population. Even in a country like US, affirmative action for the African Americans is meagre.

The point is that a poor third world country like India, has realized the wrongs committed in the past to some of its own people, and they have used the institution to bring fundamental changes in the social fabric of India.

Adios

sadna: You forgot to mention another hindu/ Raw conspiracy. You mentiond following in post #55.

[Rama is traditionally dark too. A Tulsidas composition has Sita explaining about Rama and Lakshman:

``..Saanvaro se pritam, gore se dewarva..``

(the dark complexioned one is my husband and the light complexioned one is his younger brother)]

I did not know the famous Punjabi folk song, kala siah kala, mera kala hey sardar-goryaN nuN dafa karo`` has hindu religious background. The infiltration of Tulsidas writing in folklore must be a hindu conspiracy. I bet mullah do not know it, otherwise they have fatwaed by now and called for banning it in Pakistan.

Romair: Good points. I have fallen behind keeping up with latest on chowk, except desi aristocrats. Any way, it is difficult to distinguish between terms like hindu and native culture since lot of hinduism came out of native cultures and vice versa. It is not difficult to take pride or accept the native cultures without agreeing to India as the sole flag bearer of our collective heritage. Actually, India can never convince Bangladesh to be less intersted in native Bengali culture than themselves. Pakkistan must follow Bangladesh example to admit and own whatever cultural cards nature has dealt us. There are more Balochi, Sindhi, Pathan and Punjabi in Pakistan than in India and this fact should have been exploited to form a national identity instead of Islam. Of course, it would have required deeds and not just rhetoric. Sadly to say, India has more Punjabi dailies, publishes more books in Punjabi and have more prosperous Punjabis than in Pakistan.

Ref ROmair #73:

``There are siginificant psychological hang-overs in Pakistan from the Hindu philosophy``

No more, no more please my head is swelling up too fast for this!

good one dude!

SameerJB #82
The author says ``It is upto India to follow the lead of Pakistan``

No offence to anyone personally, but nothing sends more shivers up my spine than the thought of emulating the Hindu republic of Pakistan, esp since Romair is a supporter of military rule(as is perhaps fitting from his self-described Rajput roots).

The egalitarian legacy left behind by the Mughals and other Muslims who apparently `ruled Hindus for 1000 years` before adopting Hindu culture wholeheartedly, is good enough for us Indians :).

Poor Jinnah, TNT was all for nothing.

I mean, Indians are so spineless they go stand in the hot sun in long lines to push a stupid paper ballot into a box, so passively, without even a gun in sight, without even putting up a fight. They allow themselves to be branded on the little finger after that, with their customary fatalism just like their gau maa!!

Its understandably hard for others to shake off this coward`s malaise which is in their blood, though they have a separate country to do it in. They have bravely persevered in the last 50 years to shake free of such meaningless ritualism, including by making a big point about eating gau maa :)

Sadna, I think you`re taking it way too far... I`m not blaming everything on Hinduism and Hindu roots... I don`t think Hinduism has that strong of a hold on Islam for a few reasons:

The Islam you see being forced upon Pakistan by the religous extremists is not the type of Islam bred in Pakistan, but rather something imported from the Middle East and forced in. Islam that develops in Pakistan is a very liberal thing indeed, and better for all... but sadly we have these radicals trying to force everything into being Arabised... nothing wrong with being Arab at all, but many Pakis don`t want to be Arab; they`re happy being Paki.

Hinduism only influences Islam on the cultural level where it is telling that India and Pakistan have identical cultural roots. This much we know. But other than that I think it is VERY ambitious to say that Hinduism has played a very important role in the way Islam has developed and is responsible for the mentality of Muslims in the subcontinent.

The problem is that all the Talebani wannabes are just waiting for the next Hindu-nationalist statement out of India so they can use it to try and force many normal Pakis into a state of fear. It`s a terrible thing they do, but when you have a state that feels constantly threatened (and might I add with good reason due to the past history between the two) it is all too easy to get people into a state of fear where they feel that listening to the Mullahs is the best option.

re: DostMittar, Gupta

At an intellectual level, I understand the need fully analyze the caste system, if nothing else, then, as Gupta suggests, so that we can fight it best.

But for millions and millions of Indians caste is not merely an `intellectual` issue. It has been the bane of their lives. To them, caste has been a purely evil institution, to which they are unlikely to respond calmly or analytically. I suggest that we be extremely aware of the sensitivities of these brothers and sisters of ours.

I demand no moratorium on research or discussion related to caste. In fact, the more research we have the better for us.

What I would do if I could, would be to make sure that every discussion on caste (especially by non-Dalits) begins and ends with heartfelt apologies to the Dalits.

I dont think anybody would mind that.