Brahmin and Mullah

Sadhana

``I mean, Indians are so spineless they go stand in the hot sun in long lines to push a stupid paper ballot into a box, so passively, without even a gun in sight, without even putting up a fight. They allow themselves to be branded on the little finger after that, with their customary fatalism just like their gau maa!!``

Ha ha. Sometimes you are very funny.

Ylh

You really are a hateful little prick aren`t you. ``To the Indian trying to raise his flag ....I was the one that slapped you`` ....Big Deal. Took a lot of balls doing that right. Slapping one Indian in the middle of hundreds of Pakistanis. At least that Indian dude had the guts to do something like that in the middle of a hundreds of Pakistanis. Doubt you would be capable of raising the Pakistani flag in the midst of a hundred Indian ones. You would probably be too scared to even come to an Indian concert. And if you did, it would probably be in a dhoti - kurta, and you`d probably introduce yourself as Ram Lal. I know your type.

Oh yeah, and if you were Indian doing the exact same to a Paki, I`d be equally outraged and slap you in the back of the head.

You are a disgrace to your own. I am fortunate that I have come across better Pakistanis in real life and base my opinion of the Pakistani people on them.

``This [acceptance of corrupt/powerful rulers] is also, in my opinion, a psychological hangover from the Sub-Continent being ruled for 1000 by invaders, and our forefathers willingly accepting them as rulers, without challenging them ``

Oh dear. Ever heard of elections, democracy, leadership CHANGES, etc taking place in India? Hardly call that ``willing acceptance`` now, would you? Or is it your thesis that certain subcontinental afflictions conspired to migrate solely to Pakistan? I could live with that, I suppose :-)

And such pathological obsequiousness being a mainly Hindoo trait, this should readily explain the stellar democratic credentials of purer lands like Saudi Arabia, UAE, Iraq, Syria, Malaysia, Indonesia, ...

What kind of tortuous worldview is it, that can make normally cogent people like Romair to rationalize thus??

Sadna #85 Congratulations on your millionth post where you repeat your profound and deeply insightful thought that ``We Indians good, you Pakis bad`` and provide the newsflash ``We Indians got democracy, you Pakis got dictatorship``. Here`s a thought: instead of typing this point over and over, month after month, article after article, why not program the computer to send over one such message per article on chowk every day with this message. You could then give your overworked brain a rest.

Eklavya, Bong_dongs: ``everything good in Pakistan is attributed to pure Islam, everything `bad` becomes the burden for Hinduism to carry.``

I am surprised both of you came up with the similar responses to my post.

Following are some of the things I mentioned in my post that are hangovers (the word hangover in this reply was used in the form of vestige, which means, ``trace.`` Not in the form of a hangover that people experience after heavy drinking, which bong-dongs reply seems to be implying): ``Marraige...Clothes, music, behavior, movies, social customs etc.`` I also stated that the Hindu culture was able to absorb the culture of the invaders.

To the best of my knowledge, these are not, ``bad`` things. However, from your responses, it seems they maybe considered bad in India. Could you please elaborate on this.

I also mentioned the following: an undefined cast system, taboo on divorces. Please correct me if I am wrong, but Pakistan did inherit these two things from somewhere. Perhaps from our common Belgian, Italian or Eskimo forefathers, if not from common Hindu forefathers.

To the best of my knowledge, all of the above, both the good and the bad, Pakistan has inherited from our (by our I mean Pakistan and India) historically common culture and philosophy, based on an interpretation of Hinduism. For some strange reason, both of you seem to only be concentrating on the negatives I have mentioned, and not the positives.

This seems to be a common trait I have noticed amongst Indian repliers. First many of them point out that Pakistanis tend to align themselves culturally with the Middle East, when they should align themselves with India (which is a pretty legitimate complain). When someone points out the good and bad that Pakistan has inherited from a common culture and philosophy, thereby pointing out the common traits, many Indian repliers narrow in on the negative points, and disregard the positive points that are mentioned. Its a lose-lose situation. Damned if you do, damend if you don`t.

Secondly, I did not point out anything good (or bad) that Pakistan has gained from Islam, since that was not the subject of the reply. Infact, I iterated exactly the opposite, i.e. Pakistan has not been able to inculcate into its society many of the good things offered by Islam.

If the only thing that will make you happy is a statement that Pakistanis have been able to clearly separate the positive and negative interpretations of their historical Hindu heritage, and have inculcated all the good the Hindu philosophy has to offer into their system, than that can be stated, as well. Howevever, that will not be the truth, since Pakistanis have not been able to do that. Although such a response may make you happy.

One should not consider everything a personal attack. What Pakistan and Pakistanis have inherited/inculcated into their system from various religions like Hinduism, Islam etc., that were part of the history of Pakistan, does not in any way serve as a benchmark of the legitimacy of those religions. Suppose Pakistan were to inherit or interpret into its society only the negatives of Islamic and Hindu societies. Would that make these religions inherently bad?

I consider debates on comparative religions a complete waste of time. They serve no purpose. My previous post was a reply to the following question posted by Eklavya:

``Can you please clarify how Hindu culture dominates Islamic culture in Pakistan?

Loosely, I understand culture to be generalized modes of behavior, thought, and being.

What ``Hindu`` patterns of thought, behavior, and being do you see dominating Islamic patterns of thought, behavior, and being in Pakistan?``

I attempted to answer the question to the best of my knowledge. Perhaps the question should have been rephrased, as follows:

Can you please clarify all the positive effect Hindu culture has had on Pakistan?

I would have then only pointed out the positives, and not both the positives and negatives. From your replies, it seems like you wanted an answer to this question, not the question you actually asked. I cannot read your mind, only the text you print here :) So basically, I stand by everything I stated in my previous reply.

Eklavya, Bong_dongs: ``everything good in Pakistan is attributed to pure Islam, everything `bad` becomes the burden for Hinduism to carry.``

I am surprised both of you came up with the similar responses to my post.

Following are some of the things I mentioned in my post that are hangovers (the word hangover in this reply was used in the form of vestige, which means, ``trace.`` Not in the form of a hangover that people experience after heavy drinking, which bong-dongs reply seems to be implying): ``Marraige...Clothes, music, behavior, movies, social customs etc.`` I also stated that the Hindu culture was able to absorb the culture of the invaders.

To the best of my knowledge, these are not, ``bad`` things. However, from your responses, it seems they maybe considered bad in India. Could you please elaborate on this.

I also mentioned the following: an undefined cast system, taboo on divorces. Please correct me if I am wrong, but Pakistan did inherit these two things from somewhere. Perhaps from our common Belgian, Italian or Eskimo forefathers, if not from common Hindu forefathers.

To the best of my knowledge, all of the above, both the good and the bad, Pakistan has inherited from our (by our I mean Pakistan and India) historically common culture and philosophy, based on an interpretation of Hinduism. For some strange reason, both of you seem to only be concentrating on the negatives I have mentioned, and not the positives.

This seems to be a common trait I have noticed amongst Indian repliers. First many of them point out that Pakistanis tend to align themselves culturally with the Middle East, when they should align themselves with India (which is a pretty legitimate complain). When someone points out the good and bad that Pakistan has inherited from a common culture and philosophy, thereby pointing out the common traits, many Indian repliers narrow in on the negative points, and disregard the positive points that are mentioned. Its a lose-lose situation. Damned if you do, damend if you don`t.

Secondly, I did not point out anything good (or bad) that Pakistan has gained from Islam, since that was not the subject of the reply. Infact, I iterated exactly the opposite, i.e. Pakistan has not been able to inculcate into its society many of the good things offered by Islam.

If the only thing that will make you happy is a statement that Pakistanis have been able to clearly separate the positive and negative interpretations of their historical Hindu heritage, and have inculcated all the good the Hindu philosophy has to offer into their system, than that can be stated, as well. Howevever, that will not be the truth, since Pakistanis have not been able to do that. Although such a response may make you happy.

One should not consider everything a personal attack. What Pakistan and Pakistanis have inherited/inculcated into their system from various religions like Hinduism, Islam etc., that were part of the history of Pakistan, does not in any way serve as a benchmark of the legitimacy of those religions. Suppose Pakistan were to inherit or interpret into its society only the negatives of Islamic and Hindu societies. Would that make these religions inherently bad?

I consider debates on comparative religions a complete waste of time. They serve no purpose. My previous post was a reply to the following question posted by Eklavya:

``Can you please clarify how Hindu culture dominates Islamic culture in Pakistan?

Loosely, I understand culture to be generalized modes of behavior, thought, and being.

What ``Hindu`` patterns of thought, behavior, and being do you see dominating Islamic patterns of thought, behavior, and being in Pakistan?``

I attempted to answer the question to the best of my knowledge. Perhaps the question should have been rephrased, as follows:

Can you please clarify all the positive effect Hindu culture has had on Pakistan?

I would have then only pointed out the positives, and not both the positives and negatives. From your replies, it seems like you wanted an answer to this question, not the question you actually asked. I cannot read your mind, only the text you print here :) So basically, I stand by everything I stated in my previous reply.

drum:

(I worry about you people sometimes. The repression must be awful...)

somebody needs to spank you

Acheron2 #86
`` The problem is that all the Talebani wannabes are just waiting for the next Hindu-nationalist statement out of India so they can use it to try and force many normal Pakis into a state of fear. It`s a terrible thing they do, but when you have a state that feels constantly threatened (and might I add with good reason due to the past history between the two) it is all too easy to get people into a state of fear where they feel that listening to the Mullahs is the best option.``

Acheron2, perhaps you were not born then, but I suggest you look up a person called Zia-ul-Haq who 1977?-1989?. There is a country to your west called Afghanistan, and the Taliban was taught religion in madarassahs in Pakistan set up for the very purpose.

It seems unbelievable that you ignore whats been INSTITUTIONALLY over decades by Pakistanis themselves and whine about everyone else, but its par for the course. ``The state of fear of mullahs`` due to Hindus indeed, what a laugh.

And let me introduce you to Romair #71. Do pl. take it from here.

Let me summarize. Pakistanis allow mullahs and feudals to strut about creating fear because of Hindu culture in Pakistanis. Pakistanis are not able to tell them off because of Hindus outside Pakistan. Should we perhaps send over a spare Shankaracharya to sort it out?(I think we have at least one spare)

tahmed321 #87
All thats old hat. Being a Hindu I am just commiserating with y`all for the fatalism and `psychological hang-overs` remaining in Pakistan due to Hindu culture.

Ref ROmair,

Dude I have nothing against you personally and if might allow me to say something without imagining it to be patronising or condescending:

1) other than some unorthodox (wierd?) geo-political and strategic ideas (maybe you should try reading somebody other than Margolis or Cloughley?) I know your heart is in the right place.

2) just try to read what you have written from the point of view of a hindu/indian and tell me what you understand from it.

3)and could you tell me what do you think the deal is with Sadna?

Ref Italian mian:

yaar koi mujhe samjhaye eiska funda kya hai? Koi Paki chori ke peche hai kya?

This is a poorly written article. The author should have sticked with an analysis of how & why the clergy in Islam gained the power they hold today. I don`t see what this has to do with either Ramayana, the Brahmins or the Indians.

re: Dost-Mittar # 100

Valid point, Sir.

re: Romair # 91

I think we have something important going on here, both for Pakistanis and Indians. My purpose was to bring our latent, taken-for-granted beliefs to the surface, so that we can throw the light of reason on them. And no!! I didnt want you to recount the `good` effects of Hinduism on Pakistan :)! More later.

Regards,

EK

RE: Acheron2#86

I must confess that I find your responses odd. You said:

“The Islam you see being forced upon Pakistan by the religious extremists is not the type of Islam bred in Pakistan, but rather something imported from the Middle East…”

Correct me if I’m wrong, Islam DID come to the subcontinent from the Middle East. That is to say, it IS an import from there. What is your point here?

You also said:

“Hinduism only influences Islam on the cultural level where it is telling that India and Pakistan have identical cultural roots. This much we know. But other than that I think it is VERY ambitious to say that Hinduism has played a very important role in the way Islam has developed and is responsible for the mentality of Muslims in the subcontinent.”

Er…culture IS a major factor in forming a people’s (or person’s) mentality (is it not?). In other words, it plays a “very important role” in shaping this mentality. Mentality, in turn, affects how we approach and understand things - including religion.

It doesn`t seem to make sense that Hinduism has influenced popular culture in the Muslim majority areas of the subcontinent but has somehow not played much of a role in forming people’s mentality in these areas (including how they see religion). It doesn’t seem to make sense, but perhaps you can explain what I didn’t understand here?

[Other side of the coin: I also think that Islam has affected Hinduism as practiced on the subcontinent, and has certainly influenced the popular culture of India. This is, btw, acknowledged by India whose constitution recognises three “classical languages”: Sanskrit, Persian and Arabic.]

I’d like to take this opportunity to point out that the responses to this article (101 to date) have far outstripped in number and occasional spite my other two favourite discussion threads on Chowk: those responding to Veeresh Mallik’s dissertation on kebabs (87) and to Ms Shandana Minhas’ fascinating analysis of Lahore (64); and this despite none of the critiques of physiognomy which eventually crept into the other two.

Finally I’d like to thank Ms Sadna. If I had to vote for most entertaining response I’d vote for yours (#76 onwards). And also my hat off to the people who tried to respond to her. You may have failed miserably, but you’re bloody brave for trying. Mujh se tho nahin hotha.

Reply #: 93 egalitarian_brahmin

``Today, India’s conventional forces enjoy a comfortable superiority over their Chinese counterparts in the Himalayan theater; the Indian Army has superior firepower, better-trained soldiers, carefully prepared defenses, and more reliable logistics. Similarly, the Indian Air Force has better aircraft, superior pilots, and excellent infra-structure and would most likely gain tactical superiority over the battlefield within a matter of days if not hours in the event of renewed Sino-Indian hostilities.``

An interesting quote from RAND (whose legitimacy I don`t doubt at all), but highly irrelevent as far as we are concerned with a Sino-Indian war.

This speaks about Indian forces in the Himalayan theatre today and if China attacked TODAY. If China wanted to attack, she would move her elite units into position and the cream of her airforce as well. India`s army in that theatre might be superior right now, but in the case of China mobilising and moving her army (most of which is trying to gain influence in East Asia right now) into the fray, I can safely say that she would give India a terrible tasting. Especially if she attacked first. Let us also remember that any Sino-Indian war in this age would most likely involve Pakistan, whose Airforce is probably the top in the world (depending on which military source you read, such as Jane`s or Chuck Yeager). India need only look at Germany during both world wars to realise that fighting a two front war is suicide. That is why it is in her best interests not to try and compete for hegemony over Asia with China but rather try and maintain friendly relations and reap the rewards that trading with the world`s soon to be largest economy will gain her.

I`m not saying that India`s army is inept, as some do; far from it I think they have made tremendous strides since the last major war. But I do think that when you want to post items from RAND or other groups, and I encourage it because I always like to know new things, you remember the context in which the statements are made :)

sadna #102 ``I am just commiserating with y`all``

Why Ga-a-a-wd aw-mighty, that be mighty kind of y`all, Missy. Now Ah reckon Ahl just run on over to the rest of dem Pakis and pass on over to em the kind commiserations from y`all. Lordy, Lord, we be so-o-o bad and Missy`s commisertions just keep on comin` and comin`. And y`all remember us lowdown Pakis to the good master Jay Thakeray, wont ya please missy?