Brahmin and Mullah

Reply #: 103 Zafar Al-Talib

``Correct me if I’m wrong, Islam DID come to the subcontinent from the Middle East. That is to say, it IS an import from there. What is your point here?``

You`re absolutely right, and I you can tell I rushed out the last post (had to go somewhere) because I just fired away without explaining everything...

Yes, of course Islam came from the Middle East. However, the Islam that came out from the ME over 1500 years ago is very different than the Islam that we have today. The development of States has led to the concept of the ``Islamic State`` where Shari`a has been implemented. This has never been the case before. Even in the great Islamic Empires, the Caliphs were known to party-down. It`s only recently that we see an emphasis being placed upon getting back to the golden age; the Muslims of long ago would have laughed at these Deobandi warriors and said ``STUDY I.T.!!!``. However, in the Subcontinent there has always been a different strand of Islam, agreed? It has been in some ways been influenced by Hinduism and Hindu culture as we can see in CULTURAL aspects such as the Islamic Wedding. What I meant, in essence, was that the Islam you see today is influenced by radicalism that has been to a degree imported from the Middle East FOR EXAMPLE when all of the Pakistani expatriots came back from working in the Gulf and had adapted some of their versions of Islam. Saudi Islam and Pakistani/ Indian Islam is different, no? :)

``It doesn`t seem to make sense that Hinduism has influenced popular culture in the Muslim majority areas of the subcontinent but has somehow not played much of a role in forming people’s mentality in these areas (including how they see religion). It doesn’t seem to make sense, but perhaps you can explain what I didn’t understand here?``

Ok, I have to try and draw lines about ethnicity and religion and the concept of the ``ethnic Muslim``. You are right when you say that it influences the way people see their religion, but what was aiming at was the fact that Islam has some major cross-cutting cleaveges with regards to culture and ethnicity. In essence, the aspects of the religion that can be affected culturally have been (i.e. the wedding example above) but Muslims still pray in Arabic and still don`t eat pork or drink wine, both of which are ok in Hinduism. Perhaps this has cleared something up, and maybe it has made it more confusing :) I hope for the former, but let me know if you still have questions about it I will be more than happy to try and answer them as best I can.

Doctrine of utility

Javed A Khan

Every leader who has came to power in Pakistan, except Quaid-i-Azam, by virtue of elections or military takeover, justifies every wrong action of his/her by saying that it was done in the supreme interest of Pakistan.

History reveals that almost all the leaders who tried to justify the wrong ``in the supreme interest of Pakistan`` have had an unfortunate end; Bhutto gallows, Zia aircraft blast, Benazir Bhutto self-exiled and spouse in jail, Nawaz Sharif convicted and exiled.

I wonder what would be the end result of our valiant hero of Kargil. The only slot of power that has not been exercised by any leader in Pakistan is monarchy. Under the supreme need, this can be done with the help of a Provisional Constitution Order. This will sound nice to His Royal Majesty, President of Pakistan, Joint chief of Staff and Chief of Army Staff and (King) Pervez Musharraf.

Peshawar

//from jung of today.

MAKING OF A SERIAL KILLER,

``Curiously, there is a triad of symptoms that is disconcerting. If a child has

a) fascination with fire/pyromania

b) bedwetting

c) cruelty to animals``

There should be a few parents on the chowk. The above are the symptoms of a serial killer in the making, according to a well known shrink on chowk.

Watch out dear parents when your little one wants to catch a butterfly, wants to play with the matches. The quote is from the `white sharade` thread.

We interrupt this discussion to bring the following important message from today`s Dawn online: ``Under the amended law, a juvenile terrorist would not be awarded capital punishment and he would have a chance to come out of jail after serving the life imprisonment. ``

In other words, this law would provide the inmate a chance to come out of jail once he is pronounced legally dead (at which time life imprisonment is considered to have been served). The good Dawn journalist does not explain what happens if the dead inmate fails to avail of this chance to come out of prison.

SameerJB #82
``The infiltration of Tulsidas writing in folklore must be a hindu conspiracy. I bet mullah do not know it, otherwise they have fatwaed by now and called for banning it in Pakistan.``

Sameer, what you mention could be from the Krishna tradition, too, he too was dark.
btw, thats the inherent trickiness of the whole thing, to know say Hindu tradition has infiltrated, first you need to know about Hindu tradition. Now what sort of mullah would know about Hindu tradition? Only one with an open mind hehehe. The rest will be chasing rumors :).


Those who were brave-enough-to-reply :):

The fact remains that unless Pakistanis like chowkwallahs get to play a more active role in Pakistani affairs, all these theories of the Hindu in the house or Hindu across the way excuses for continued inaction.

I donot agree with Jay always, but he is right on the mark #69

Esp in Kerala, you have to see to believe the magnitude of change brought about in the structure of (still) deeply traditional Hindu society, and most of it peacefully accepted due to being through democratic process, to understand the meaning of ``institutional changes``.

From The Hindustan Times today:

Agra Summit

By Romesh Bhandari

Ever since Independence, Kashmir has made adversaries out of India and Pakistan.

Wars have been fought, meetings on all levels have taken place. Great amounts have been spent by both sides on defence. Yet another effort to find a solution will be made when President Pervez Musharraf visits India on July 14.

The upcoming summit has already attracted greater attention than previous ones. Rajiv Gandhi and Zia-ul-Haq met in February 1985 in Moscow. Both were attending the funeral of the Soviet President. They decided that I (then foreign secretary) should visit Pakistan and start a fresh dialogue. President Zia was very enthusiastic and said that there could not be better conditions as on his side he had Sahibzada Yakub Khan as foreign minister and Niaz Naik as foreign secretary. Both were committed to friendly Indo-Pak relations.

I visited Pakistan and several meetings took place between Naik and me. These led to President Zia coming to Delhi on a working visit in mid-December 1985. Rajiv Gandhi and Zia-ul-Haq agreed on a step-by-step approach, which if it yielded positive results would culminate in a visit by the Indian Prime Minister to Pakistan. The two decided that an agreement would be signed on `non-attack` on each other`s nuclear installations. The first step, a visit by the then finance minister, V.P. Singh, to Pakistan, was very successful. A number of measures were agreed upon which would give a major boost to our economic exchanges. The next step was a visit by me for foreign secretary-level talks.

My wife and I received an extremely warm welcome. I was, however, to receive a shock the next morning when I read in the papers that the Muslim League had passed a resolution stating that economic exchanges between India and Pakistan were against the interests of Pakistan, and that the Kashmir problem could only be resolved under UN resolutions.

A representative of the Muslim League, M.K. Junejo, had just been appointed the Prime Minister. This made the resolution even more potent. I told Naik that I had better pack my bags and return home. He urged that I first meet their new Prime Minister and President. At the meeting with Junejo, I raised the matter. He replied that what he had stated was the position of the Muslim League and it was not binding on the government.

I met President Zia that afternoon. He assured me that the Muslim League resolution in no way diluted his own commitment to improve relations. It only showed the kinds of problems and resistance he was facing from political parties who were only interested in getting votes. He seemed concerned and sincere. I suggested that there should be at least some signal from Pakistan that they were sensitive to India`s concerns.

A verdict in respect of hijackers of an Indian Airlines plane was due. I mentioned that a strong punishment would assure the Indian public that Pakistan was sincere. President Zia was rather uncomfortable with what I suggested. But a few days later, when I was in Karachi, I was taken to see the President who was visiting the city that day. Zia asked me to convey his greetings to Rajiv Gandhi and indicated that what had been suggested was being done.

My visit to Pakistan, however, turned out to be the last step in the understanding reached in Delhi. It was clear that `internal forces` had prevailed. Zia had serious problems with Junejo.He dismissed him and dissolved the National Assembly on May 31, 1988. Zia was killed in an air crash in August 1988.

In 1991, when Rajiv Gandhi was no longer Prime Minister, he mentioned that Zia and he had come to an understanding which would have settled the Kashmir problem. The solution died with Zia. An agreement on the `non-strike` on each other`s nuclear installations was, however, signed some years later by another regime.

What is different now that could give us some hope? Pakistan is on the verge of bankruptcy. The country is also facing great social and political unrest. Sind and Baluchistan are fed up with the domination of Punjab. If Islamabad does not handle the situation properly, there could be another Bangladesh in the making. The very unity and economic stability of Pakistan is at stake.

At the same time, we have given Pakistan the advantage of having nuclear weapons — thereby gifting away our superiority in conventional warfare. The adventure in Kargil would never have taken place otherwise. We have also shown our weakness by not being able to handle the internal situation in Kashmir.

It has been almost 30 years since the Simla agreement. We have failed to provide the Kashmiris with peace and security. We have not given them economic development or an environment in which they could improve their living conditions. We have shown our own ineptness which Pakistan is taking advantage of.

It is in the interest of both countries that something concrete comes out of the summit. What we do not want is a visit that results only in atmospherics with the two leaders playing to their respective domestic lobbies. Peoples in both countries want an end to the Kashmir crisis.

In any kind of negotiations, there is a minimum threshold below which one cannot settle. Is even our minimum going to be acceptable to Pakistan? And vice versa? It is doubtful unless Musharraf is prepared to consider something centred on the LoC. Regardless of the outcome, however, we must keep talking. A breakthrough may appear in the form of a permanent bilateral ministerial committee.

We must come to an agreement aimed at reducing to the extent possible risks of a nuclear war. We could agree to keep the LoC `cool` (as has been done on the Sino-Indian border), remove restrictions and go ahead with improving and expanding exchanges in the economic, cultural and social fields. Will this be acceptable to Musharraf and our home ministry? Let us hope and wait.

Eklavya #88: ``What I would do if I could, would be to make sure that every discussion on caste (especially by non-Dalits) begins and ends with heartfelt apologies to the Dalits.

I dont think anybody would mind that.``

Just a silly question (and please dont let this interrupt your verbally orgasmic posts on love and peace on chowk.com) - coming from India, how do you see the caste relations there?

Hoping in real life no self-flagellating liberal Hindu/Indian has to oblige a Drona by giving up their spine and pragmatism. Even in letter.

Get back to you later.

PS: A technical question - are sudras considered dalits - anyone?

Jay,

#107

Go read that post again, in its entirety. In the meantime, I have to take a bath because your accursed shudra shadow has fallen on me.

Ref Acheron2 #102

Chia - India - PAF etc

Dude, why dont you keep talking about religion where I do not pretend to know anything and I`ll let you go by. If you start speaking about stuff I pretend to know something about it will be a differnt story.

re. macgupta`s revisiting of Casteism & eklavya`s (earlier) objections

Arun (mc)Gupta has done a quite good job of presenting the case for varna. It might wrankle Indians because of the real pain it has caused the lower- and out-castes for centuries. However, it is no different from the ordering of classes in Ancient Greece, and even Plato`s much touted Republic. And far from merely providing a dispassionate treatment of the origins of the casteism, the articles macgupta reproduced do lend a sense of a transcendant (i.e beyond self-interest) element to the whole deal.

That any such system is so open to abuse is a no brainer. But who knows what the checks and balances (perhaps non-institutionalised) to this system might have been in times of yore!

In any case, discussing the subject on he chowk cannot realistically amount to violence upon anyone.

rgds,

PM

The literary world lost a true gem: May Agha Shahid Ali rest in peace. His words were as beautiful as Kashmir`s vales and hills. He`ll be truly missed!

THE EDITOR REVISITED

You still haven’t called me a poet, Dear Sir,

and I’ve been at it,

this business of meanings, sometimes delayed,

selling words in bottles, at times in boxes.

I began with a laugh, stirred my tea with English,

drank India down with a faint British accent,

temples, beggars, and dust

spread like marmalade on my toast:

A bitter taste: On Parliament Street

a policeman beat a child on the head.

Hermaphrodites walked by in Saffron saris,

their drums eching a drought-rhythm.

The Marxists said,

In Delhi English sounds obscene.

Return to Hindi or Bengali, eachword will burn

like hunger.

A language must measure up to one’s native dust.

Divided between two cultures, I spoke a language foreign even to my ears;

I diluted it in a glass of Scotch.

A terrible trade, my lip service to Revolution

punctuated by a whisly-god.

Now collecting a degree in English,

will I embrace my hungry country

with an armful of soliloquies?

This trade in words continues however as

Shakespeare feeds my alienation.

Please note, Dear Sir, my terrible plight

as I collect rejection slips

from your esteemed journal.



He will Surely Be Missed!

Reply #: 6

Eklavya

I think the author is just trying to prove a point here... hes just telling us what he thought about that ramayan movie.. hes not dis-respecting his friends father or insulting his religious enthusiasam and u say it. It doesnt matter where he saw the movie.. what matters is what he thought about indians and hinduism after that. movie.

#: 21 ylh

``Just because Junoon app ko ghass dalte hain doesnt mean that they are not nationalistic Pakistanis...``

haha that was some reply:P... i agree with u whole-heartedly.!

#: 23 ylh

I agree with you there aswell... thank God there are some intelligent ppl around here. ( no offence intended everyone)

#: 28 iqbal Kasim

i agree that by definition Pakistan is not a secular nation!!But i dont agree with you when you say that india is a secular nation...why?because even though india is a multi-religious country,isnt it aslo called HINDUSTAN??? isnt that name connected with their religion?If pakistan is called an Islamic Republic then doesnt it mean anything when INDIA is called HINDUSTAN?

#: 12 iqbal kasim

you said

``I do not know how you are saying that

`` Pakistan has law and order``- go and look at Sindh and its dacoits and kidnappings. We have such a great law and order system that the Army throws the Government out every few years and for more than half our tramautic history we have been under the thumb of an army dictator. ``

Mr Kasim every country has its dacoits and kidnappings...it doesnt mean they dont have law and order.Look at USA,England, et al ... they also have Law & Order yet they have the highest crime rate. I agree we dont really have the best kind of ``law & Order`` but our government is trying .. atleast we have some kind of law.

Secondly... it sounds like u dont like military power... you criticize the army for throwing the govt out every few years,yet you dont look at the reason behind it.Why does the army do that?Because the 2 major political parties bankrupted Pakistan.If Nawaz Sharif was the president any longer we would not have survived... Musharraf couldnt just sit there and watch Nawaz Sharif destroy Pakistan.He had to do something!!

Maybe Musharraf craved for Power...maybe that is why he is now the president but atleast we got rid of Those Two Stupid Parties!!!Good Riddance!

btw sorry my reply is a little late...

i just checked these replies :)

From BBC: ``Mr Vajpayee has also instructed the coastguard in future to turn back rather than arrest Pakistani fishermen who cross inadvertently into Indian territory, Ms Rao said.

...Correspondents say that the issue has long been a sore point in bilateral relations. ``

A decent move by Vajpayee. (I chose to ignore the cynics and those who think the fear of ISI or RAW agents is adequate reason to imprison hundreds of poor fishermen from both countries). It does raise the question: Why do bilateral relations have anything to do with what should have been a human rights issue all along.

BBC continues: ``Other measures included the elimination of tariffs on 50 product lines of Pakistani imports to India, and the introduction of 20 scholarships for Pakistanis to study in Indian technical institutes.``

Hats off to Vajpayee. I hope Musharraf has the guts to reciprocate two-fold.

dost-mittar #113
Just a comment: what some people consider to be essentially liasons some other people consider to be essentially marriages.
Surplus Namboodiri girls : There was a documentary on Kerala`s local language TV about a number of Namboodiri girls who converted to Catholicism 100-150+ years ago to be free of the numerous restrictions on them, primarily marriage.

tahmed321 #108
Doesnot life imprisonment often mean 20-25 years? So if a juvenile begins his term at an age of 17, he would be out of jail by the age of 40 or so.