Brahmin and Mullah

The minority issue

Mohammad A. Zaman, M.D. writes from Raleigh, NC, USA.

A COMMENT: I grew up in a small village in Sylhet, half of which was Hindu. I played with them. I grew up with them. I made friends with them. As I went to college, some of my best friends were Hindus. Durga and Saraswati Puja was just like any other festival to me. But the recent events in Bangladesh as reported by The Daily Star and other newspapers is profoundly disturbing. It is even more disturbing to see the reluctance of our elected government to accept the problem as it exists. Smart solution requires identification of the problem and understanding its intricacies. Without the willingness to accept the problem as a problem, establishing a high profile government commission is nothing but a futile venture. To meet the criteria for general acceptance, the investigation has to be independent ( of government) and transparent.

A FEW THOUGHTS: Even though we share a common cultural heritage, bonded tightly by a common language, a dichotomy got rooted with the introduction of Islam in Bengal. Probably most of the conversion in Islam occurred in the downtrodden and oppressed ``have-nots`` in the lower strata of Hindu society ( I bet my forefather was one of them). As they converted, they reaped the advantage of royal favors at the expense of their previous masters of higher strata. So a deep sense of untoward feeling between the two groups was there to begin with. And it is natural. Then came the British-Raj. With the loss of royal patronage, the Muslim society as a whole remained estranged, while the Hindu intelligentia embraced English. It was a complete reversal of the dice. Economically prosperous, culturally advanced Hindu Babus looked down at the Muslim Mians. Thus, despite a very strong bondage, a deep-seated resentment permeated the Muslim psyche. In Bengal, this possibly got worsened during the Bango-Bhango movement. The point, I am alluding to is simple: `` When economic and social parity supervenes, religion usually becomes a back-burner. The apparent ill feeling between the two groups of the same people, originated largely because of socio-economic reason. If the Hindu society was homogeneous to begin with, my forefather, most likely, would have retained his Sanatan faith. And my name would have been predictably different.`` This deep-seated strain is not going to go away anytime soon. In fact, this dichotomy of our very culture, led to the evolution of two different tributaries of a great cultural might. It is like a twin, though not monozygotic. We have two different names. We look different like two fraternal brothers and/or sisters. But our Mother is the same.

If we consider this basic proposition as an established fact, a lot of apparent difference and inconsistencies can be explained without any misgivings. Being Arabic in origin, my name does not betray my cultural heritage. It only affirms the fact that I am flowing from a different tributary.

AN AFTERTHOUGHT: As I mentioned earlier, akin to a tectonic fault line, there is a natural strain in our national psyche. And some unscrupulous politicians are magnifying this strain with resultant atrocities of volcanic proportion against our own fraternal brothers and sisters. It is time to raise a rational voice that reverberates in every rational soul.

Dear Sir :

You guys have to make up your minds. Either India is run by Banias or else it is run by Brahmins. It cannot be run by both -- historically the two have never been allied.

The BJP is a party of shopkeepers; your inimitable Ardeshir Cowasjee wrote about ``bania muchen nichi`` whatever that signifies, he got the bania part right.

You may also want to stop believing blindly what the political opponents of the BJP/RSS ``Sangh Parivar`` say about it. Yes, it is true that the Sangh Parivar exhibits great hostility towards Muslims. However, it is the least casteist of the political parties in India. The Marxists having failed to create a class struggle are now recognizing that a caste struggle is possible and are the most bent on preserving caste.

I also do not think it is for India to reassure Pakistan of anything, when Pakistanis hold certain misconceptions that can be easily dispelled by themselves on a little deeper digging.

-Arun the Infidelator

The author has spent time abroad in Pakistan, and it shows.

Constitutionally, Pakistan has been a secular state for all of fifteen minutes after Jinnah`s 1947 speech; it has been Islamic ever since.

The foundation of Pakistan is law and constitution, certainly must be true; it is so rich constitutionally that its army periodically throws its constitution out of the window. Poor India has had to keep one constitution and a stupid system of elections going for the last 50 years; well beggars cannot be choosers.

Historically, it is precisely because of the caste system that Islam has not been successful in India. Thus, we go through the Middle East, Iran, Afghanistan with more than 95% Muslim populations (with Nuristan nee Kafiristan converted by force just about 130 years ago), and then stumble across the hordes of unbelievers. Pakistan did a good job in getting rid of most of them. The Land of the Pure was 78% Muslim in 1941, and 97% Muslim in 1951, what a difference ten years make. Then comes the land of the stubborn casteists, of whom not more than 12-15% converted. Fast forward to the east, where the Bangladeshis are now was the last stronghold of the Buddhists, who presumably were not casteists. They are now 90% Muslim and the non-Muslim minority is shrinking. Go down into Malaysia and Indonesia (where the airline is still Garuda -- recognize it from the Ramayana ???). What do you think kept India from becoming more than 90% Muslim like all these other lands ? (Clue -- it was not any intrinsic kindness of Muslim rulers -- there is not a Hindu temple older than from the 18th century extant in North India. Your Sindhi bhais in Pakistan have a tradition that Muhammad bin Qasim had every unbeliever male above 18 killed.).

Let me paraphrase the Vishva Hindu Parishad argument about the Babri Masjid/Ramajanmabhoomi for those who fail to understand. As the VHP says, it is irrelevant whether Ramayana is true or not (funny position for religious fundamentalists to take, don`t you think). What is true is that that site has been holy ground to Hindus for many centuries, certainly before Babar built a mosque there only by right of conquest. Muslims may want to ask themselves whether the Prophet Muhammad really ascended to heaven on a winged horse starting from the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem -- and if even he did not, how it still remains holy ground for them.

Ignorance is bliss, I suppose. To remain that way, it should not come stumbling out into public view.

-Arun the Infidelator

Intresting.

Ciao

Finally an article that touched up the subject of religious hierarchy in Islam. I`ve been trying to find more information on this subject and dig people with religious knowledge to talk to me about it but somehow I feel that either muslims don`t know much about it or are too afraid to give an opinion on this topic. I would recommend a very good book, which is actually a collection of essays by Muhammad Asad (an Austrian Jew reverted to Islam in the 1920s or 30s) `This Law of Ours`. Muhammad Asad, in his various articles tried to bring forth the point that Islam does not suggest a system of religious hierarchy at all but instead gives clear instructions on matters of religious significance through Quran and Hadith and the matters less important in nature are left to an individual`s own knowledge and conscience. The work earlier done by the great scholars (who are reverred as Imams) was a need of their time and it does not by any mean makes their opinions binding on the muslims of today. Muslims today have to find answers to the current problems according to their own needs.

Somehow I felt that you dealt with too many issues in this article. I hope that in the future you`ll write more on this topic without bringing Brahimnism, India, or Pakistan in it.

Vulcan.

My dear author,

It does not matter who leads and who follows so long as both of us go in the right direction.

If you feel that Pakistan has taken the lead in keeping religion at home -- away from the public sphere, then bhaijaan, you and your countrymen have done very well. I would have no hesitation in suggesting to Indians that they follow your example.

And, you are right: the recent rise of Hindutva forces isnt all that good a thing for India. What India (and I dare say, Pakistan as well) needs is a nationalism that cuts ACROSS religious lines, not one that defines who an Indian (or Pakistani) is in narrow religious terms. Anything else is terribly unfair to non-majority communities.

In addition, mere pyaare dost, I admire your dedication to the great religion of Islam, and your willingness to stand up for your beliefs. There surely are a lot of things Hindus can learn from the wisdom of Islam. And despite the unfortunate history of conflict, some Hindus like me are quite grateful that that wisdom has been made available to mankind.

I wish, however, that you had as much regard for other people`s mythologies and traditions as you would expect others to have for yours. I respect Islam too deeply to insult it just to show the silliness of your arguments about Hinduism. Also, I am surprised that a Rutgers student, one who I assume must have taken courses in logic and deduction, would use the religious enthusiasm of an aging man in a foreign land to reach sweeping conclusions about India and Indians; Hindus and Hinduism.

And, even when you speak of your friend`s father, doesn`t the fact that he lives happily (I assume, unless you tell me otherwise) in a multi-religious family, with a Catholic wife and Catholic children, and repeatedly welcomes (d) you (again I presume, unless you tell me otherwise) to his house, tell you something about the basic decency of the man?

I don`t know about your father, but my father would have a hard time being so `generous.`

Reading the rest of your article, all I can say is: I dont know, my friend, I just dont know.

If your purpose was merely to make Pakistanis feel good about themselves, I have no bone to pick with you. God knows we Indians seem to write a lot of stuff just for that purpose. If not, then may be I can make make a few humble suggestions for your consideration.

There is a beautiful line in Rig Veda. It says: ``Let noble thoughts come to us from every side.`` The Prophet Mohammad instructed us all along similar lines. Perhaps you should follow the same advice.

.....Open your eyes to reality.

.....Understand that you are not the only intelligent person on this planet.

.....Learn the meaning of the words, `human gratitude,` and `respect.` I may be a bit backward, but if someone had invited me to their house, I would never write about them the way you did.

.....Begin to take responsibility for what happens or does not happen to your own country.

Forget about India. Forget about Hindus. We are not that important. What matters/should matter to you is the future of Pakistan. If you can construct a happy, peaceful, and prosperous Pakistan of tomorrow, many Indians, including me, will be zor se applauding you from the sides.

Best regards...and if this is your first time here on chowk...welcome, my good friend.

PS: Also, dont run down all Mullahs, Shaykhs, Imams, and Pundits. Some of them are pretty good and wise human beings.

re: vulcan # 5

Vulcan, you are right. The author bhai would have made a much better usage of his time and ours had he focused on something specific.

Macgupta I suppose that we will dispel our doubts by doing the same kind of complete reading that you have done about Pakistan, and how you are unbiased towards it? By the way, I suppose you didnt notice but the author is an italian American?

In any event great article Mr Aschettino, really put the smack down. And God bless Junoon, they are perhaps the greatest symbol of Pakistani Nationalism yet :)

Oh by the way, to the Indian who was trying to raise his flag admist Pakistani flags at the Junoon concert, I was the one who slapped you. And since we are a `terrorist` state, I urge you not to take such pangas, again because we might have snipers next time.

-YLH

PS By the way, who was the idiot who wrote directed and produced `Ghaddar`... man I couldnt stop laughing at the inaccuracies, the over done jingoism and the fanatical bigotry which was almost comical.

ZZ,

``It is coincidence that u are muslim. If a person of ur nature be born white christian, is a potential candidate for KKK, since all you are born as is perfect.``

Good for you Sir!

ANOTHER FROM RUTGERS,

Another typical rutgers product, based on one indian family, based on one hindu book, the great product of rutgers has spoken. You should have stuck to what you know best, pakistan, Italy and caste system in islam. The best and glowing example of this is `` Abdus Salam Institute of Theoretical Physics``. My friend it is in italy, because pakistan will not allow that. You could have contribute the only article ever to come on chowk about abdus salam. YLH mentioned about your `forth coming` article, birds of the same feather, in this case bafoons with the same repoteir.

Hey Antony,

How much authority do you have to make such sweeping statements? Dont take this offence, but I was curious about your interaction with Indians, India.

As arun gupta had already said, the reality is different whether you want to believe it or not. And it is definitely not in our hands to clarify our Hindu/Indian nationalism to others who are ill/mis informed about this. Your article does nothing but re affirms the stereo typed image Pakistanis have about India.

As you go through the interacts I am sure that some of us will try to reason out to you. But it depends on you whether you are honest about it or not. I only hope you do not follow your co - graduate from Rutgers. ;-)

YOu Rutgers guys have some thing going on for India right ? ;-)

cheers,

jntuece99

The most urgent concern to all Muslims should be the growing insistence that some sort clergy exist with in Islamia. To be a Muslims requires that one be literate - whle a Phd is not required, a Muslim must be able to read and write because he or she can not directly avail themseleves of the word of God, without being able to read and write, in whatever language.

All religions belong in the home?:

The moral, ethical, social, political and economic vacuum created by the abdication of the State of it`s responsibilties to it`s citizens, is being filled by Islamists who by necessity must and will create a new class, the clergy.

Hindu National Destiny and Indian National Destiny? ``Indian`` as opposed to ``Hindu`` distinctions?

``Pakistan is now taking steps to ensure that there is no confusion on the part of the world; that Pakistan is indeed a secular state founded by Muslims and not an Islamic state. It is up to India to follow the lead on this issue.``

A secular state founded by Muslims? Now that`s as close to an oxymoron as it gets.

And India learning from Pakistan about secularism? That`s a laugh. Despite the flaws in India`s secular credentials, it will take a huge leap of faith to think that`s Pakistan`s even close to what India has achieved in this area.

Regards,

tvarad

eklavya #6

``Forget about India. Forget about Hindus. We are not that important``

...... so what are we supposed to do ? ... sit around sipping scotch and talking about wimbledon and how the indian-zionist lobby has kept our guys away from center court or sit around sipping rooh-afza and talking about chechnya and how the horrible hindus are siding with the murderous russians in a conspiracy to wipe out the ummah .......

Ylh #8

``Oh by the way, to the Indian who was trying to raise his flag admist Pakistani flags at the Junoon concert, I was the one who slapped you. And since we are a `terrorist` state, I urge you not to take such pangas, again because we might have snipers next time``

Perfect credentials for an educated and tolerant future leader of a secular south asian country. The guy not only acts idiotically but takes pride in it too.

How dare some poor indian student attend a concert by pakistanis and wave indian flag next to pakistani flags? I guess he forgot that when you go to a function by an artist from pakistan, even in this land of free, you are in virtual pakistan. No wonder he keeps telling indians to get off this ``pakistani site``. Unfortunately for him he can not reach across and touch them.

iqbal kasim #12

``I was also struck by another fact- Businessweek just did a story on the 50 most influential people in Asia. Of the three Indians listed in the Business men category- 2 of them were Muslims ( Azim Premji of Wipro- the Richest Indian; and Yusuf Hamied of Cipla)- agreed they are both Shias- YES. I did not see anyone on that list from the Land of the Pure. So maybe the Muslims in India are better off than in our own land,Pakistan. This by the way was pointed out to me by my cousins in India- all of whom are doing well in I/T or pharmaceuticals or MNCs``

Azim Premji is well known due to his status as richest man in india. Yusuf Hamied on the other hand is just getting to be known in international financial press due to his success in driving down aids drug prices for south africa. If I remember correctly, he is selling equivalent drugs in africa at 10-15% price compared to brand name drugs from western countries. This in turn forced the big name pharmaceutical companies to knockdown their prices by 50-75%.

On the same topic, there was an article couple of days back in your NEWS International that indian generic drugs are very popular with your middle class and are almost at 25% price compared to the locally manufactured western brand name products. Indian drugs in pakistan come via afghanistan, which has trade relations with india (atleast for medical supplies). Black marketers route it to pakistan. The writer was making a case for open trade between india and pakistan for the benefit of middle class pakistanis.

Re ylh

``Oh by the way, to the Indian who was trying to raise his flag admist Pakistani flags at the Junoon concert, I was the one who slapped you. And since we are a `terrorist` state, I urge you not to take such pangas, again because we might have snipers next time.``

Ah yes, this is the product of a fine Rutgers education. Btw, weren´t you the one who was mentioned as being slapped silly by some girl in a Chowk post a while ago?

Junoon Funoon my a$$. Even they have to come to India to perform to make any real money.

To everyone especially Iqbal Kasim (Former Pakistani Cricketer I presume? Loved your Off spin bowling sir)

The point is that Pakistan remains a practically secular state (that is if India is a practically secular state too though I PERSONALLY CONSIDER BOTH PAKISTAN AND INDIA WAY OFF OF THE IDEALS OF SECULARISM BUT I AM FORCED TO CALL PAKISTAN A PRACTICALLY SECULAR STATE, BECAUSE INDIA, BY THE VIRTUE OF ITS OFFICIAL SECULAR CONSTITUTION WISHES TO BE CALLED A SECULAR STATE) as the testimony of those visiting Pakistan will confirm... there are separate electorates .. but how are the conditions of the minorities in officially `secular` India any better since they have joint electorates... that is not to say that Pakistan should not move towards joint electorates, and I say this because Jinnah himself was extremely pro joint electorates but saw separate electorates as a necessary evil for the Unity of India.

What ever constitutional provisions in the `Islamic` Republic of Pakistan are there to appease the fanatics. Yes there is discrimination against the minorities and yes a lot of them are impoverished but that is a third world phenomenon.

Minorities in India arent any better and that claim I welcome you to check up on. Still we have a lot to do and we are by no means any better than any one, as a matter of fact we are in reality really bad since, I am forced to draw a comparison with India, the myth of whose freedom is unmade in the slums of Calcutta.

Besides we always cared about practical repercussions anyway, to be `officially` secular means jack if you are not in reality.

Now having established parity between India and Pakistan on the question of practical secularism,

let us now see the true Ideals that we need both nations to make

1) Liberty Fraternity Justice

2) Equality for all Citizens regardless of religion caste or creed

3) Egalitarian Governments and state structure

If Pakistan has feudals, benevolent ones in Punjab and more oppressive ones in Sindh, India has mahajins money lenders and manipulative businessmen who live off of the poor (someone please comment on how true the portrayal of Indian Society is in the City of Joy).

Now which of the two states has dominant social and civic values which will be most suited to undo this discrimination. Here lies the essence of Mr Aschettino`s article ...

ISLAM VS HINDUISM

Islam, Pakistan`s dominant civic (and official) religion, with all its alleged flaws is an egalitarian faith with no clergy (hence there can be no theocracy in Islam, and the opposite of theocracy is only a secular state).

Hinduism, India`s dominant civic religion, is a caste ridden society and religious order. Brahmins , the religious elite, form the upper echelons of the society, who are hence either rulers or above the rulers.

So if India is a populist democracy, there is no way in hell it will ever be truly secular, but only secular in name!

Mr Achettino, I see that both Indians like Tvarad and Mr Kasim have failed to differentiate between the concept of state and nation, but it is for some reason very hard to explain to Indians, though our friend Kasim understands it quite well,

only he has been forced fed the wrong definition of `SECULARISM` by the Mullahs.

Henry Kissinger writes in his book `Does America need a foreign Policy`

`Like the Middle East, India is home of great religions. Yet unlike Islam or christianity the Hindu religion is one of endurance, not of personal salvation. Instead it offers the solace of inevitable destiny. It accepts no converts; one is either born into it or is forever denied its comforts. The assured position through caste system is so pervasive that the lower castes chose to remain in the status in the Hindu religion rather than escape it by conversion to one of the available egalitarian faiths, such as Islam or Christianity. Foreigners(YLH`s Exclamation!) could achieve no status in Hindu society; producing an essential imperviousness to foreign rule.` Page 155.

In the earlier paragraph he writes :

`While China has had its own political institutions which gradually imposed chinese culture on conquerors until they became nearly indistinguishable from the Chinese people, India preserved its special character not by coopting foreigners but by segregating them. Indian society might bend to force but it has remained impermeable to alien cultures.`

THE DISHONEST INDIAN CONSUL GENERAL IN NEW YORK

By the way, while we are on the topic, I have looked through almost all of Kissinger books, and I am yet to find the quote that `Shashi Tripathi` the Indian consul general so shamelessly quoted in her propaganda anti-Pakistan speech at Yale which was condemned by Pakistanis and Indians alike.

LONG LIVE PAKISTAN

No Rsaxena, actually the post was in regard to one of the attacks on my life from one of the fundos (your kind in Pakistan)... Junaid you see is a male name...

In any event, the best thing is that Junoon sing Jazba Junoon in India too, and you know thats the most nationalistic song ever.

Pardesi,

The attempt was by an Indian around 30 years of age, to create trouble because junoon were singing Jazba Junoon.

Just because Junoon app ko ghass dalte hain doesnt mean that they are not nationalistic Pakistanis...

Long Live Pakistan

Long Live Junoon!

PS Yes how dare he? Do we go raise Pakistani flags at your stupid functions?

One token Muslim Millionare with a Hindu name , and that too not any more, and Indians keep harping about it.

Well, I`m very happy that the article is being bashed about... that usually means there is a kernel of truth to it :) But seriously, there must be a few points made here...

First, yes I do have a Christian name. This is because, in spite of some pressure from people from time to time, I have no desire to adopt an Arab name. I am Italian, and therefore my religion has nothing to do with my nationality. One of the biggest problems with Islam today is what we sometimes in the liberal community refer to as ``Arab Cultural Imperialism``. You can see this all over the world, especially in America where people convert to Islam and then decide to dress like the Bedouin and have their women wear Arab head-dresses (which, btw, are cultural and not religious). I have no such desire to do these things. As for seeing myself as perfect, I do not. I don`t even see Islam today as perfect since there is a genuine need to re-evaluate much of it in light of modernity. But that is neither here nor there.

I wrote this article to bring attention to the fact that since India is vastly Hindu, there is a real danger of Hinduism taking over the national identity of India. For those who care to know, I have a tremendous interaction with Indians (90% of whom are Hindu) because Rutgers is a very diverse school and has a very large Indian population. I don`t think it has anything to do with who I know, and I`m not basing all of Indian thought on one person, one family. What I AM trying to do is use this as a microcosm of India in general.

There is nothing oxymoronic about a secular Muslim state. During the entire golden age of Islam, from the Ummayyads to the Abbasids, the state was in essence secular with nominal religious things thrown in to distinguish the Caliph as being a Muslim and the empire as being Islamic. It was nothing like modern so called ``Islamic`` states as Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia ect who are really an innovation in the sense that the modern state did not evolve until only about three-hundred years ago.

I ask that you look at the possibility of Muslims existing as a distinct ethnic group in this context. Our ethnicity is set apart by certain religious beliefs and asking for a state where we may live un-persecuted is not asking too much. One must remember always that it was the policies of Hindus that led to the creation of Pakistan and that in reality there would have been terrible troubles in reconciling the two sides in a democratic state with such a vast Hindu majority many of whom had certain hatred for the ``invading`` Muslims.

Also, for those who like to bash Rutgers, I would like to ask where you went to college? Rutgers is one of the finest universities in the country.

Lastly, I would like to point out that I am not being an apologist for Islam in this case. However, I would like to say that I think CE (and now President) Musharraf made some excellent points in his latest speech about the REAL role of Islam in Pakistan and how we need to get back to certain ideals in order to go forward. I will make a few posts commenting on excerpts from his speech later.

Tony

:)

re: RSaxena # 18

Saxena saheb, Junoon se pange na lein tau acchaa hoga :)

The intertwining of religion, religious leaders, and secularim in South Asia makes interesting and somewhat confusing reading.

The Sub-Continent, or great portions or it, was ruled for close to 1000 years by Muslim kings. Yet it still remains predominately Hindu, with a Hindu culture that dominates the Islamic culture, even within Pakistan. Quite contradictory.

What would have happened had the Muslim kings forcibly converted every Hindu to Islam? Would the Sub-Continent have been one gigantic Pakistan or Bangladesh? Would the succeeding generations of the forcibly converted Hindus have cared that their forefathers were converted forcefully to Islam? I doubt it. I am quite convinced my own forefathers were converted against their will to Islam from Hinduism, but it doesn`t really bother me too much.

Pakistan was created by a man who was about as western, secular, and non-religious as any Muslim could be. Yet he created Pakistan on the basis of a separate homeland for a religious minority. But after creating the country on this basis, he then tried his best to make it a secular state. Quite contradictory.

Soon after Jinnah`s death, Pakistan ended up becoming not only a, ``safe haven`` for Indian Muslims, but also an Islamic state (Jinnah wanted the former, but not the later). So much so that Mullahs, of both the enlightened and ignorant variety, became very prominent figures. The rest of the world, including neighboring India, started viewing Pakistan as a Mullah-controlled state, where religion dominated politics. Yet the internals of Pakistan do not support this. In the last election, nearly all the Pakistani religious parties (and there are a great many of them) participated on a combined platform, supporting common candidates. Yet the religious parties won only two seats out of a possible 217+. A religious leader, historically has greater chance of getting elected to the US Congress than he does to the Pakistan National Assembly. Quite contradictory, once again.

India from the start was a secular state, with a secular constitution. It had to be secular. There was no other way for it to survive, since it had a gigantic Muslim population. Not to mention, a large Sikh and Christian population. To its credit, India was able to keep all these diverse religious groups somewhat satisfied within such a large Hindu population (I doubt such large diverse religious groups would have survived in Pakistan). However, the secular Indian govt. turned India into an economic basketcase, which watched a previously backwards Pakistan blow past it in economic and infrastructure growth. So India ended socially ahead of Pakistan and economically behind it.

Now, the situation in India has gone to the other extreme. A completely Hindu nationalist party has been voted into power by the Indians. It has won elections, again and again. If anyone doubts the religious extremism and intolerance of the BJP, they just need to go visit their official website at www.bjp.org. They are about as extremist as any political party in power anywhere. However, the BJP is currently restricted in fully implenting its Hinduvta agenda by the coalition of parties that forms the Indian govt. So now India, with the most religously diverse population in the world, and a secular constitution, is regularly electing a Hindu nationalist party into power. Another odd contradiction.

This party has however turned India`s economic fortunes around. India is now socially less stable than under the secular Congress, but economically more stable. Another contradiction, since social instability usually leads to economic instability.

Hence, it is very difficult to analyze the effects of religion on the people of the Sub-Continent, since there are so many contradictions. Pakistanis vote extremely secularly, although they vote under a completely religious constitution. Indians have started to vote on religious lines, even though they vote under a secular constitution. Another contradiction.

In the end, I think it is economics that runs the show. People vote (or accepts dictators) into power, leadership that can put the most food on their plates; be they religious or secular.

RE: Reply #: 23 ylh

``One token Muslim Millionare with a Hindu name , and that too not any more, and Indians keep harping about it.``

At last count, I believe Azim Premji was worth around $6.7 billion:

http://www.forbes.com/finance/lists/10/2001/LIR.jhtml?passListId=10&passYear=2001&passListType=Person&uniqueId=1UFS&datatype=Person

``Pakistan is now taking steps to ensure that there is no confusion on the part of the world; that Pakistan is indeed a secular state founded by Muslims and not an Islamic state. It is up to India to follow the lead on this issue.

The author is a graduate of Rutgers University``

Its got to be the puppy chow :) (I mean it affectionately)

Its nice to know about a nucleus of secular-minded Pakistanis, but what do India and the Ramayana have to do with it AT ALL?

The real battles lie elsewhere. I will suggest the author publish this in a Urdu newspaper in Pakistan and I mean this seriously.

Acheron2 # 24:

..i will still give you the benefit of doubt that you come without prejudice, although extrapolating something incidental to draw civilisational conclusions could indicate such a thing..and you completely overlook the fact that the TV episode you saw may not represent the whole or even essential Hinduism...

``... that usually means there is a kernel of truth to it``

...coming from semitic religions- as you and I do- it is not easy to appreciate Indic religions like Hinduism or Buddhism, especially the former, a task made all the more difficult today with the arrival of pretenders who seek to restore ``lost Hindu glory`` in India and elsewhere...in your article there is some detail you have right about Hinduism as it was practised for several years, but that honestly would not constitute its kernel...

..but the problem with coming from all self-righteous theologies, including semitic religions and Marxism,is that they just do not allow for the validity of another point of view...i do not intend to give a gist of hindu philosophy here (and i cannot), but i want you to appreciate that there could be more meaning to a system of belief than is apparent through a shallow acquaintance with its popular images like ``caste-ridden`` etc....it may interest you to know what the 19th century German scholar Max Mueller thought of indian/hindu philosophy:

``If I were asked under what sky the human mind has most fully developed some of its choicest gifts, has most deeply pondered over the greatest problems of life, and has found solutions of some of them which well deserve the attention even of those who have studied Plato and Kant, I should point to India. And if I were to ask myself from what literature we who have been nurtured almost exclusively on the thoughts of Greeks and Romans, and of the Semitic race, the Jewish, may draw the corrective which is most wanted in order to make our inner life more perfect, more comprehensive, more universal, in fact more truly human a life...again I should point to India.``

...or what Schopenhauer thought of a Hindu text:

``In the whole world there is no study so beneficial and so elevating as that of the Upanishads. It has been the solace of my life -- it will be the solace of my death.``

...the point being made here is that you consider the possibility that your information on Hinduism maybe woefully inadequate..

...the rest of your article where you attempt some sort of commentary on subcontinental history and recent politics including your ending quip - ``that Pakistan is indeed a secular state founded by Muslims and not an Islamic state. It is up to India to follow the lead on this issue `` can only be called amusing and does not require rejoinder...

ylh # 19:

...do you realize how you are tying yourself up in knots with such arguments? ...with your unique understanding of the difference between state and nation, or secularism and multiculturalism -which obviously the indians do not- how you go about denying reality with jargon even when it is pointed out by your country men..

``What ever constitutional provisions in the `Islamic` Republic of Pakistan are there to appease the fanatics.``

...and if you guys undertake such fundamental alterations in the constitution for simply appeasing a few fanatics (who i have been repeatedly told here have the support of possibly 1% of the population)- start respecting your constitution more...

# 8:

``Oh by the way, to the Indian who was trying to raise his flag admist Pakistani flags at the Junoon concert, I was the one who slapped you.``

...another view of your secular liberal facade, i guess...maybe you also should have raised nationalistic objection to Junoon being sponsored by Zee Tv

# 20-

``In any event, the best thing is that Junoon sing Jazba Junoon in India too, and you know thats the most nationalistic song ever.``

..dont worry, no indian would lose much sleep on it..

If the great yahweh can say: ``One token Muslim Millionare with a Hindu name , and that too not any more, and Indians keep harping about it.``

then, so can I make this equally stupid statement: ``One token Muslim student with an Italian name , and that too not any more, and Pakistanis keep harping about it.``

Dear Anthony

You raise the issue of Islam being (ideally) without heirarchy, while Hinduism codifies heirarchy in the caste system. If we see heirarchy as a process of assigning relative values to individuals, Islam codifies heirarchies as well. For example ``Muslims are better than People of the Book who are in turn better than Kaafirs``. Or (I know fundies will argue with this but anyway) ``Men carry greater legal weight than Women`` (as shown in the relative importance of male and female witnesses).

Interestingly, while Islam is very specific about who is and is not a muslim, and then ranks non-Muslims in order of closeness to God`s word (people of the book, the rest) Hinduism does not define who is, or is not, a Hindu. My family is muslim Indian, but if we woke up one morning and decided we were going to call ourselves Hindus there is no scripture or rule to say that we couldn`t. (In fact, some of the more insanely optimistic of the sangh parivar would say we already ARE Hindus by virtue of being from the subcontinent, an idea which is fleetingly appealing in its bizarre ``almost secularism``, but which might make religion based definition of nationhood difficult to maintain - haha! no points for guessing who wouldn`t like that.)

Finally, in a response to a response, you say that Hindus make up 90% of the Indian population. Last time we counted the firgure was 82% and Indian Muslims were 12%, with the rest being from other religions. Just for your information.

Best wishes,

Zafar Al-Talib

PS To hamidm: boss, yeh ruh afzaa peene ki aadath chhor do. Consider your health, yaar...

Re Iqbal Kasim 28

Agreed that Pakistanis of every opinion and creed have a right to the full protection of the Pakistani State.

On the US as a ``secular`` entity - Is Christmas a government or national holiday in USA? Is St. Patricks Day not a semi official, in that it enjoys sanction from the State - Are these examples the same as Indians telling the world that there are laws against caste system?

It may well be true that such laws exist, but the behaviour is different and puts a lie to the assertion. IS USA really secular? and not overwhelmingly Christian in it`s orientation.

Is not the concept of ``secularism`` itself a protestant concept?

My point is not negate yours but rather to suggest that this is a debate without black and white and yet the adherents of the secular religion seem never to agree that this is more grey than black or white.

In response to Romair #: 26, I agree that economics is the name of the game in a major sense. I also agree with you that it is quite interesting that India while now being much less stable socially than it has been in former years is indeed much more powerful and successful economically since the former usually has a good deal to do with the latter and vice-versa. Which is why I strongly support the stability that the Musharraf government has brought in, and why although I am a fan of democracy I think that if he has to stay in power for another 5 years or more, it is neccessary in order to get REAL democracy going and to revitalise the economy. Both Indians and Pakistanis alike will agree that Pakistan`s economy has seen better days, but there is no reason to think that by working with the IMF/ World Bank and bringing in foreign investment from the Diaspora (something stability makes all the more attractive) that Pakistan cannot turn things around. Indeed, much of the problem with the economy in Pakistan lies with India`s economic boom and subsequent military buildup.

Pakistan must keep her military on par with India, or at the very least must keep it from falling behind to the point where India holds a clear upper-hand. However, the economic boom in India has allowed her to proceed with upping the defense budget and this has forced Pakistan to do the same. Of course, Pakistan does not have as much money so it eats into her economy much more than the military upping does India`s.

I ask earnestly if anyone has studied why Sadat in 1973 went to war against a militarily superior Israel? If you have, you know that it was because he saw that with Israel continuing to build her military up, there would be a time in the near future when the disparity was so great that Israel could do as she pleased with foreign policy. So, Sadat knew that although he had a weaker military, he had to act now because he was as close as he could get to parity. I am not saying this will happen in the Subcontinent, but we should keep this in the back of our minds when we look at the current situation.

Also, the puppy chow at Rutgers is very good :) If you look up our track record (i.e. students at Rutgers), we have always been extremely politically minded. On both sides of the ball, mind you.

Tony

:)

Dawn 02 July, Opinion, Tariq Ali`s Memories

``after 1977, Pakistan also exported carefully selected prostitutes, recruited from elite women`s colleges (to the Gulf). Islamic solidarity knew no bounds``.

Tariq Ali, the Indian Agent

Tariq Ali, the Hindu

Tariq Ali, the Islam Hater

Tariq Ali, the lier

Tariq Ali, the homosexual

Tariq Ali, the western propandist

What else are they going to throw at him?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

re: Romair # 26

Can you please clarify how Hindu culture dominates Islamic culture in Pakistan?

Loosely, I understand culture to be generalized modes of behavior, thought, and being.

What ``Hindu`` patterns of thought, behavior, and being do you see dominating Islamic patterns of thought, behavior, and being in Pakistan?

I hope you are not just refering to Baisakhi :)

Regards.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

re: Tony # 24,

Tony, people kid around here about Rutgers. Don`t let that get to you. It is a darn good school.

I am still a bit confused about how you created that `microcosm` of India, and what you think this `microscosm` you have constructed actually reflects about India. But I will let these issues pass.

PS: I think your heart is in the right place. Just focus on Pakistan. And dont get oversold on liberalism :)

The author says:

[Pakistan is now taking steps to ensure that there is no confusion on the part of the world; that Pakistan is indeed a secular state founded by Muslims and not an Islamic state. It is up to India to follow the lead on this issue.]

How should India follow the lead of Pakistan in becoming a secular state?

Should India enact the Manusmriti as the law of the land as Pakistan has done with the Sharia?

Or, should the Sharia be implemented in India to follow the ``secularism`` practiced in Pakistan?

The only parade that Pakistan can lead is the one where at the end women get stoned to death for adultery, get thrown in jail for the crime of being raped, and get killed by their families for violating the family honor as interpreted by the menfolk.

Keep calling us Hindustan, as you did for the first 40 years of your existence, unable to accept the fact that India is a country for all religions and for no religion. Now that your worst fear has come true in the form of a BJP government (though they haven`t changed a single law regarding minority rights), you all have this new-found love for secularism.

You want secularism? Let me bring you up to date on the events that have unfolded in the last 3 days in Tamil Nadu. The Brahmin chief minister Jayalalitha arrested the previous chief minister and his son on corruption charges. The governor of the state, former Supreme Court justice Fathima Beevi, backed Jayalalitha. The arresting officers were led by Deputy Inspector General Mohammad Ali. You tell me the name one single individual of minority religion in Pakistan who has reached the ranks of a Supreme Court justice, governor of a province or the rank of DIG of police. Then you can talk about secularism in Pakistan. I can show hundreds of such examples in India.

You make me puke with your self-righteous crap.

Keep deluding yourself. It is a better alternative to reality than alcohol.

CHOOSING GOD

Hamidm,

You wanted to know about how the hindus choose a god among the millions. It is all based on performance. Jayalalitha, a convicyed corrupt has become the chief minister of tamilnadu, all because of the blessing of guruvayoorappan , a keralite god. In return she has given an elephant to the temple, no we dont sacrifice elephants. Now in her political circles the stars of the kerala god goes up, more money to the temples. Sorry in kerala we cannot use this money to support the hindu jihadists, temples are managed by the government, some times by the marxist government. From hindustan times of today

``Jayalalithaa, who came here to fulfil her election vow worshipped at the temple, had a special pooja performed and offered a tusker to Lord Guruvayoorappan.

Meanwhile, normal life came to a standstill in the temple town following the dawn-to-noon hartal called by the BJP-led National Democratic Allience (NDA) to coincide with Jayalalitha`s visit.``

Regards

jay

Brahmin and Mulla ?

The Islamic Concept Of Reincarnation

By SULTAN SHAHIN

THAT reincarnation is a Hindu belief is well known. But it is not as well known that belief in reincarnation is central to Islam as well. The Quran refers as Kafir (non-believer) anyone who does not believe in the possibility of rebirth. The great mystic, Hazrat Jalal-ud-Deen Rumi, describes the process of evolution through reincarnation: ``I died as mineral and became a plant, died as plant and rose to animal, I died as animal and I was Man. Why should I fear? When was I less by dying? Yet Once more I shall die as Man, To soar with angels blest; But even from angelhood I must pass on....``

Another great mystic Mansur al-Hallaj, famous for his formulation, `Anal Haq` (I am The Truth) had written: ``Like the herbage I have sprung up many a time on the banks of flowing rivers. For a hundred thousand years I have lived and worked in every sort of body``.

The Holy Quran itself makes it clear: ``And you were dead, and He brought you back to life. And He shall cause you to die, and shall bring you back to life, and in the end shall gather you unto Himself`` (Sura 2:28). The word `you were dead` can only mean that we had lived before becoming dead. And the words, `in the end shall gather you unto Himself`, could very well mean the attainment of moksha rather than what is usually interpreted as an eternal life in Heaven or Hell. Some other verses from the Quran are also relevant: ``As the rains turn the dry earth into green thereby yielding fruits, similarly God brings the dead into life so that thou mayest learn`` (Chapter 8 - Sura Iraf Meccan Verses 6-6-13). ``And He sent down rains from above in proper quantity and He brings back to life the dead earth, similarly ye shall be reborn`` (Chapter 25 Sura Zakhraf Meccan Verses 5-10- 6).

Dr M H Abdi (Theosophy in Pakistan, October-December 1964; January-March 1965) quotes commentator Ayashi on the authority of Imam Baqer as saying that the ultimate referred to in the foregoing verse really means Rajat (reincarnation), or ``going up and down``, and that Rajat means rebirth in this world before Qiyamat (resurrection on the Day of Judgment). Abdi again quotes commentator Qummi quoting Imam Jafer, the well-known authority in the Islamic world, to say that (this) means rebirth to be undergone before entering the Heaven world.

In a series of articles, `Reincarnation: Islamic Conceptions`, Dr Abdi explains how the idea of reincarnation gradually lost popularity in Islam. The defensive wars, which have been described as Jihad or holy wars, which the Muslims fought in the early days and the wars of conquests (therefore not holy) which the Muslims fought in later days gave a different shift to Islamic teachings. Philosophical, mystical and ethical teachings received an impetus in the first phase, but they took on a subdued existence in the later phase. During this phase the republican character of the State changed into monarchy and the the saints and philosophers no more enjoyed the exalted position they had earlier.

A subject like reincarnation demands a subtle mental attitude. It entails understanding of the higher planes of consciousness, the laws of cause and effect and the working of the laws of evolution. The monarchs had no interest in such subjects. Like so many other teachings, reincarnation was confined to the study and attention of students of Sufism.

However, there is no danger of a Muslim being called a heretic if he believes and expresses himself in favour of reincarnation, concludes Abdi. Many Muslims look at the concept of rebirth in the context of resurrection on the Day of Judgment alone. But it needs to be remembered that the concept of Day is derived from the concept of Time and our concept of Time is an entirely earthly concept. As the Holy Quran is the word of God, the concept of Time contained there must be a Divine concept. The Divine, let us remember is Eternal, Timeless. For all we know, we may already be going through the Day of Judgment.

(Based on a paper presented by the author at an International Seminar on Science and Metaphysics organised by National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore and the John Templeton Foundation, USA. 24-27 June 2001).

To Dost mittar # 36

you have got some part of it right (regarding the caste). There is also an added element of flux attached to this caste system. Contrary to the popular belief, Caste system is not so rigid in the sense that various individual communities moved across these castes depending on their status and power in the society. When one community became powerful either politically or otherwise, they tended to upgrade themselves in the hierarchy of castes.

For example, The `Reddy` (VJ Meghna reddy to give an example ;-)) in South India originally were farmers and belonged to shudras. But as they acquired political power, they started passing off as Kshatriyas which was accepted by other sections. Usually this shift is accompanied by the espousal of those customs and traditions as required. This process is called Sanskritization (coined by Late M N Srinivas).

There is also a different kind of flux in the hierarchy of castes. Sometimes the `lower` castes gained economic, social and political power and they became the most important community in that part of the country. This is evident in many communities and more so in the Post independence period. The difference in both the cases is that in the former, the transition is made formal by the community embracing certain rituals.

The pioneering work done by M N Srinivas gives a lot of insight into the dynamics of caste system in India.

Cheers,

jntuece99

Dost Mittar #36

You have aptly summed up the thoughts of the majority of Indians on this issue. Thanx

Sincerely

re. Ylh:

``Oh by the way, to the Indian who was trying to raise his flag admist Pakistani flags at the Junoon concert, I was the one who slapped you.``

There is a limit to how much Nationalistic defensiveness can be seen as normal... and this is goes waaay beyond that threshold. It is both sickening and cowardly (would have been something if you`d done it to an Indian in a predominantly Indian crowd).

Yasser, it is one thing to spew vitriol and be verbally abusive as on the chowk (The Lahori spunk and all). The jazbaati lack of restraint in this act is, however, quite disturbing, to say the least. And you have the gall to talk about fundoo extremism!

Long Live Pakistan Indeed! The cry has taken on a new dimension of desperation.

re dost-mittar #36:

Your defence of the casteism in Hinduism reminded me of a conversation I once had with a British friend of mine who had spent quite a bit of time in America. He was complaining about the lack of intelligence exhibited by the `common` American. His thesis was that in America anyone with a modicum of intelligence did not remain poor for long. Anyone stuck in menial jobs seemed to be somewhat lacking in the upper compartment. This was in stark contrast to England where the so-called class system ensured the presence of capable people in even unglamorous jobs. I`ve found a grain of truth in his sweeping generalization whenever I`ve had to get my car repaired :)

later

-sac

To all those `explaining` the caste system.

Dear friends, I know some of the relevant arguments. I also know that you wrote all those posts with the noblest of intentions. But I have a chhota appeal.

Let us do NOTHING that may be miscontrued by people less informed than you in this matter (or less intelligent than you) as being supportive of the caste system. And no reinterpretations, please!

Let us focus on uprooting this evil practice, on killing it, and burying it so deep that it does not rise up again. One can not reinterpret ideologies that divide humanity; and then order them hierarchically in God`s eyes.

It was our shame that we fell into this intellectual and moral trap, and became encaged in dogma that we mistook for religion for thousands of years. If we have to live as real human beings, we must break this cage once and for all.

I would first like to clarify what I think is a common misconception here... that is namely, that I am basing my entire assumption of India and Hinduism on one tape out of a series and on one family out of a half-billion. This is entirely not true. First, I have a minor in religion that would have been a major if not for the lack of a few 100 lvl classes that were not offered the semester I graduated. I have studied Hinduism from a practical point of view and from a scholastic point of view. I have read copious amounts of literature on Hinduism both by believers and non-believing scholars (I do the same with every religion btw) and have talked with Hindus of ever class from Brahmin to untouchable. But enough of this, I just wanted to point out that I am not just talking out of my keister.

My essay is in essence an attempt to point out that the rest of the world views India as a benevolent ``Gandhi-esque`` state. I am not saying that India is evil, far from it. Muslims are not the only ones, however, who have religiously inspired visions of a future where they are dominant in a certain region. Talk to a Muslim in Palestine about who the #1 enemy of Islam is and the answer will most likely be ``Israel``. Talk to a Muslim in Pakistan and you may very well get ``India``. This is because in both regions Muslims feel threatened by a neighboring state, the former because of her superior military power and the latter because of her superior population and economic might.

Sorry for the percentage inaccuracy, but I was saying it more on a grounds of ``the overwhelming majority...`` and 90% is usually a # I use to define that. But, since people don`t know my idiosyncracies yet it`s not really right for me to use them.

I would also like to quickly point out to some of those who like to criticize Pakistan`s historical politics that the Cold War and American interests in the region sadly had a huge effect on her development. Especially during the 1980`s as the whole Afghan war broke out... India never had such foreign influence (unwanted or wanted) and so it`s not entirely fair to say that Pakistan was allowed to develop the way she wanted.

Also, Eklavya #: 39 I know, my friend YLH has set a high standard for us Rutgers Alum to step up to :) And thx, I will try and keep the focus on Pak and keep the liberalism in check... it is hard at times tho :)

Well written article.

some observations:

1. Being a Hindu, I have this to admit. It is an expensive religion. Many pujaries/priets will take you to cleaners. When on vacation to India, all my $5 grand was gone spending on relgious rituals.

However, I must add that all the religions have many forms of rituals and I am sure in most cases it is expensive.

2.Being a Hindu is also a lot of fun. Contrary to what the author says, there is absolutely chaos in my religion. Since we believe idol/god/goddess worship, we do so directly. we do not need middle-men or brokers and no specific holy book. Islam has Quran and Bible for Christians, Torah for Jewish folks; Supposedly, there is Gita for Hindus, but wait, there are more competing books that compete with Geeta. I can pick and choose whichever God I pray or I can elect not to pray.

3. Hinduism offers diversity. Because we have female Goddesses, we have the means to respect females in our society. Women are adored in Bengal because of Kali and Durga, Parvathi and Durga are worshipped all over.

Some Gods are dark and others have fair complex.

Krishna is black while Rama is not. Again, I can only tell this from seeing pictures.

In South India, Ravan is worshipped much more than Rama. Afterall, Ravanna worshipped Shiva to gain immense powers. Legend has it he misused it.

Still he went to heaven after being destroyed by Rama.

* * *

What I have noticed is that criticism is absolutely denied in many religions. If anyone dares to speak his/her mind, there are many clerics who are more than willing to label them so and so . This prevents constructive learning. How can one be a ``scholar`` if there is no objectivity in understanding.

It is unfortunate that religious fanatism is either ``my way or highway``. I guess this is what Musharaf meant when he spoke to clerics.

Regards.

Pardesi,
Students, physical force and future politicians, tolerance, democracy its all in here :)

An anecdote related by someone who retired as Professor and Head of Dept in a prestigious college in a city in India. In a college function which happened to be held outdoors, the invited chief guest was someone important, Members of a students organisation, to express their protest against the chief guest and his political views, began to create havoc among the spectators by shouting slogans and setting off fireworks within the crowd.

When general appeals from the podium didnot work, to restore order, our professor, a very mildmannered and softspoken person and rather sedentary in his habits, and his colleagues decided to take matters in their hands. They went up to each trouble maker, caught hold of an arm each and physically marched them off the college grounds. I donot doubt there would have been some scuffles..

Many years passed, our professor retired and then some years ago decided to open a tutorial college( privately-run coaching schools which are attended by many private students and those preparing for competitive exams).

In connection with setting up his college, he was required to meet the state Education Minister and get his signature/approval on some paper.

So he made an appointment and went. When he entered the room to meet the minister, the minister stood up respectfully, folded his hands and enquired how ``Professor Sir`` was? The minister was respectful throughout the meeting and he signed the approval ofcourse..

And who was the Education Minister? Ironically, one of the troublemaker college students, one of the leaders whom our professor had personally caught hold of and `handled`, years ago.

And the former student is still the leader of an important coalition partner and a minister in the recently-elected state government. I think he got something else( maybe irrigation) this time round, this time Education and apparently IT affairs is with the state Muslim League, I am not absolutely certain.

Disclaimer : this is not to suggest that political-aspirant Rutgers students do anything which invites anyone to physically restrain them :)

The difference between a brahmin and a mullah is that the mullah is mindless jihadi:

An important aspect of militant leadership is the premium on successful leadership, on success in life. Badshah Khan said that if a Hindu renounced wealth or office, he commanded greater respect. But if a Muslim did the same, he was viewed as something of a freak.

Once Shaukat Hayat Khan, son of Sir Sikander, Prime Minister of Punjab, called on Jinnah. Jinnah’s advice to him was: “Go and make money. Muslims don’t follow poor leaders like Hasrat Mohani or Zafar Ali. Muslims followed me only when I had collected 50-60 lakh of rupees.”

And since Muslim politics revolves round the rich, the militant and the successful, the people as such do not count for much.

hariharan #51
Rama is traditionally dark too. A Tulsidas composition has Sita explaining about Rama and Lakshman:

``..Saanvaro se pritam, gore se dewarva..``

(the dark complexioned one is my husband and the light complexioned one is his younger brother)

Reply #: 53

nameless

For your hallucinatory thesis ,i give you PhD. in political science from Bapu Univ of Pashu pathi Nath Maha Vidyalya.

What ? Did you say you never heard of it ??,

Neither have of your name , or how low your E.Q. & I. Q. is is or if have it even.?????????????

The following applied in Kerala (quoting an author from the egroup Indic Traditions) -- posted here even though dost-mittar faced some flak.

-Arun Gupta

In social and political status, the Nayars have long been the ruling nobility of traditional Kerala society, for many centuries at least. The traditional Kings and rulers of Kerala (called `tamburans`) were of Nayar stock; the warriors and landowners included Nayars, Syrian Christians and upper class Muslims. But though these groups had a high social status, their ritual status was low, in the varna hierarchy decided by the brahmins.

Ritually, the Nayars were shudras and the Christians and Muslims were outcastes. However, this did not prevent them from following kshatriya ideals and acquiring Sanskrit learning.

Syrian Christians were very often educated in Sanskrit, and were culturally close to Nayars. The Muslims lived in Malabar (the northern part of Kerala) and I must confess that I know rather less about them, only that they were generally well integrated into the social and political system under the Zamorin (the Hindu king), with some famous warrior nobles among them.

The dominant brahmins were Nambudiris, and they had a curiously paradoxical relationship with the Nayars. Ritually, they treated the Nayars as untouchable shudras; but socially and culturally, they joined together with the Nayars in an intimate partnership of cultivation and learning. They even intermarried with the Nayars: in a special kind of relationship (called `sambandham`), where a brahmin gentleman would have perfectly legitimate children and familial relations with a Nayar lady at her ancestral family home (her `taravad`). Nayars were matrilineal, with the women having sometimes a fair degree of independence; so the children of such a relationship would be Nayars, and the lady was not entirely at a disadvantage. (She had the right to terminate the relationship; and if she wished, she could then marry a Nayar of her choice or enter into another relationship with a brahmin. Though it must be admitted that this right was not always easy to exercise, in the face of family pressure.)

As can be imagined, this kind of relationship -- between a brahmin gentleman and a Nayar `wife` and children whom he must treat as ritually impure -- did have its own kind of problems. It could be very difficult, in some ways even inhuman (for the Nayar lady, the children, and the brahmin father as well). But it did help to make more intimate the relationship between Nayars and brahmins, and to pass knowledge and learning between them.

By at least the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, the ruling Nayar nobility was highly educated and cultivated, particularly the kings and princes. Some of the greatest figures in Malayalam literature and scholarship are traditional rajas (like the famous Svati Tirunal in the nineteenth century). Such learned rulers (who remained in power till Indian independence in 1947) teamed up with both brahmins and Christian missionaries to develop vernacular learning in Malayalam and to institute a modern system of education. That is the history behind the high literacy rate in Kerala today (by far the highest in India, according to what I last heard). It is not just a modern phenomenon brought in by recent communist state governments; but has a history that goes back centuries, through the extraordinary learning and cultivation of Nayar rulers who had the ritual status of untouchable shudras.

Thus, it is very misleading to equate the ancient varnashrama system of ideals with the rather narrow and corrupted ritual status that came to be applied by medieval brahmins to jati social groups. According to this narrow ritual status, there are no `true` kshatriyas among the peoples of south India, nor even of Bengal. The only `true` kshatriyas are the Rajput clans of northern India. But this is by no means the whole story, nor the essential one, of how the varnashrama ideals have continued to inspire Hindus, in their social and cultural lives.

To return to the example of the Nayars, their low ritual status meant that it was polluting for a brahmin to touch them. Thus, though a brahmin gentleman could have a family relationship with a Nayar lady and his children by her, he could only visit them at their Nayar home. They could not come to his ancestral home, nor meet his brahmin family. For that would be ritually polluting. And after being with his own Nayar children or their mother, he had to have a bath to cleanse himself ritually; before he could go back to his ancestral home or meet other brahmins or engage in worship or even do many ordinary things that required a normal state of ritual purity. This sounds awful, and I wouldn`t deny that it was. The people who went through this kind of experience do not speak of it kindly. Not at least the people whom I`ve heard or read describing it. It was not for nothing that Swami Vivekananda called Kerala a `madhouse`, in this regard.

However, this isn`t the whole story. The Nayars were not essentially confined to their ritualized shudra status. Brahmins may have accorded them that low status, for the special purposes of brahmanical ritual. But for the Nayar nobility themselves, in their own social and cultural lives, they were kshatriyas, and very much so. They followed kshatriya ideals, inspired by the ancient varnashrama system. They had an essential freedom to interpret the ancient ideals in their own way. And they made good use of that freedom, with the active (though sometimes convoluted) collaboration of brahmins, to develop the kingdoms of Travancore and Cochin in a way that compares very favourably with similar parts of India under British administration.

When this freedom of interpretation is taken into account, the old ideas and ideals can be seen in a much more sensible and realistic way.

A second article by the same author.

-Arun Gupta

..the traditional Hindu social system is much misrepresented: in particular by a confusion between `jati` and `varna`. Both words are translated as `caste`, though their meanings are quite different.

Of the jatis, there were and still are an indefinite number. They were social groups into which people are born. Each jati had its own history, which gave it an ethnic flavour of its own. In traditional Hindu society, a person`s jati provided the intimate cultural environment of family life and upbringing. And it also provided a network of community relationships. Through this combination of family culture and communal networking, the jati was -- for its various members -- the effective base from which they conducted their social and worldly affairs. To a fair extent, this remains true of many traditional jatis today.

Unlike the jatis, the number of varnas was essentially fixed. According to ancient tradition, fixed by the authority of the Vedas, there were just four varnas. This was not a plainly historical description, of actual social groups. Nor was it a straightforward code of conduct, to anything like the same extent as the legal and institutional codes that govern a modern society. Instead, the fourfold varnas were a highly mythical set of ideals, which had to be interpreted in very flexible and delicate ways.

The `varna` ideal was tied up with ritual and religion: which makes it easy to target, as providing a divine sanction for the inequality of human beings and the exploitation of lower classes. But the very word `varna` shows that the inequality was considered to be superficial. For `varna` is associated with the root `vri`, which means to `cover` or to `conceal` or `veil`. Thus, the basic sense of `varna` is `covering` or `outward appearance`, and the differentiated varnas are merely outward forms of a fundamental equality that is fully present in each.

Each of the varnas had its own positive ideal, expressing the essential equality that they all share. The brahmana ideal was one of pure character and dedication to sacred knowledge, relinquishing all attachment to power and position. The kshatriya ideal was one of true justice, vigorously implemented through wise statesmanship and skill at arms. The vaishya ideal was one of practical management and wealth creation, to accumulate a store of wealth that provided for the needs of everyone. The shudra ideal was one of faithful service, selflessly surrendered towards those who were fit to be served.

It is of course the shudra ideal that seems most repugnant today. Its imposition upon the lower classes seems nothing but a callous exploitation by their `superiors`. But that wasn`t the only way it worked, in traditional society. In the first place, it placed an obligation to be fit for whatever services were received, and that obligation was meant to be taken very seriously indeed. And, more fundamentally, the upper classes did not merely receive the benefits of service, but owed selfless loyalty themselves to those whom they should serve. Even the most powerful king, or the wisest brahmana, had finally to surrender everything, in service to a divine principle beyond all power and learning. And that divine principle had a habit of manifesting itself in seemingly low and humble forms, to remind those who forgot its fundamental equality.

In fact, the shudra varna represented the ideal of bhakti, with a curiously paradoxical importance in traditional society. On the one hand, it was the way of the poor, the powerless and the uneducated; as they served those with more wealth and power and learning. On the other hand, in its deepest form, it was the highest way for everyone; as all trappings of the world had finally to be surrendered. And that deepest form of bhakti was not excluded from any class, no matter how high or low. Even beneath all the four varnas, the outcastes were paradoxically linked with the sannyasis, who in some ways had the highest status of all.

How were these ideals practised, in the changing circumstances of Indian history? That is a very complex matter, about which there has been far too much rush to judgement, with rather inadequate historical records. There are of course great difficulties with the current writing of Indian history, since it has been so much influenced by foreigners and antagonists who cannot be expected to fully represent the Hindu traditions own view of itself.

For that self-view of Hindu history, we have two main sources: (1) the largely mythical and imaginative stories that are told by medieval and ancient texts and works of art; and (2) the fast growing chronicling of history by Hindus in the last century and a half.

The mythical stories are actually quite frank and in that sense realistic about the abuses and the paradoxes of Hindu social and cultural ideals, particularly the caste system. This makes it all the easier for detractors to paint an awful picture of caste iniquity throughout history, but I have come to be less and less convinced by it. The very frankness of admitting the problems gives me an opposite sense of enduring social and cultural strength, in the face of great difficulties. As teachers like Vivekananda and the late Kanci Shankaracarya keep pointing out, it is through the varnashrama and jati systems that the tradition was built up and has been kept so richly alive, through such a long and varied history.

What I`ve come across in the last hundred and fifty years of more plainly recorded history also gives me the same sense of strength, continuing far more essentially from the old tradition than being artificially constructed by importing and imitating from the west.



For those who would ask me to back up that general impression with more details, I`ve posted an article, `Traditional Hindu Society`, in the file section of this group

[which I will post next]

The third article I want to post is rather long, will do so later. Here is a URL to a different article in the meantime.

http://www.infinityfoundation.com/ECITmythicalframeset.htm

-Arun Gupta

From The Indian Express today:


Pre-summit mood is pro-summit

By Prakash Nanda

IF the pre-summit mood in Pakistan is so optimistic these days, it is mainly due to a perceptible change in the average Pakistani mindset about India. Be it in Lahore, or Peshawar, or Islamabad, or Karachi, the general impression that this writer gathered during a just concluded visit to Pakistan is unmistakably clear. Pakistanis, like never before, realise that they have to live with India, not against it. Their stand on the so-called core issue of Kashmir is much more ‘flexible’ than anytime in the past. And their aversion towards conducting trade and commerce with India is much more diluted than ever before. Gone is the craze of projecting Pakistan as a ‘West Asian state’. Instead, Pakistanis are being increasingly convinced that their destiny lies within the subcontinent of South Asia.

Of course, the ranks of the ‘jehadis’ and fundamentalists in the country have swollen in recent years. However, they are still not strong enough to give one the impression in the streets and homes in Pakistan that the country cannot co-exist with India. More Pakistani men may now be growing beard. Similarly, more Pakistani women may have abandoned ‘sari’ in favour of ‘salwar-kameez’. But at the same time, almost all the Indian TV channels have now a dominating presence in Pakistani homes as never before. In fact, from 8.30 p.m. to 10.30 p.m. every weekday the Pakistani families are literally hooked to Kaun Banega Crorepati, Kahani Ghar Ghar Ki and Kyunki Saas Bhi Kabhi Bahu Thi.

In what would have been considered heretical a few years ago, many Pakistanis are now openly challenging in newspaper columns the country’s education system that has been injecting in the young minds the elements of anti-Indianism. ‘The ideology of Pakistan’ as taught to the students, sportsmen and bureaucrats is nothing except anti-India by using such phrases as ‘Hindu mentality’ and ‘devious Indian psyche’. Therefore, social scientists like Dr Inayatullah of Islamabad are now talking of the desirability of the Indian and Pakistani historians to write common textbooks.

Discerning Pakistanis are now pointing out how the anti-Hindu militant chauvinists have proved to be Frankenstein monsters who could turn against their creators any moment. Small wonder that General Musharraf has just launched a campaign against the war cries of the ‘irresponsible religious leaders’ who have undermined the country’s economic growth and distorted Pakistan’s image in the international community.

The growing perception is that Pakistan has not won the covert war in Kashmir, but its economy has been sacrificed considerably in the process. Very few responsible Pakistanis are now talking seriously of Islamabad’s traditional position of the implementation of the 1948 UN resolution. The catchword now is ‘flexibility’. In fact, it is just a new trend among the Pakistani scholars to see merits of other options on Kashmir that could maintain the territorial status quo of India and Pakistan with little modifications. Advocating a step-by-step approach, they want India to cooperate with Pakistan at the moment in working out a framework by which India’s military presence in Kashmir could be brought down to the pre-1989 level, Kashmiris’ fundamental rights could be restored, and above all, a mechanism is devised to facilitate the people on both sides of the line of control to visit each other, preferably through a bus service between Srinagar and Muzaffarbad.

The business circles would like the politics of the subcontinent not to dictate its economics. They are particularly keen on the over-land gasline from Iran to India through Pakistan.

However, will all this optimism be sustained under the regime of President Pervez Musharraf, the author of Kargil war? ‘‘Yes’’, say the thinking Pakistanis. For them, General Musharraf alone has the capacity to lead them on the road to reconciliation with India at Agra, as he wants to perpetuate the military’s legacy in the Pakistani polity. The theory is that if the Lahore Declaration in 1999 and the Shimla agreement in 1972 could not ensure peace, it was because these were brokered by the civilian prime ministers and the military did not like them to earn credits. The situation, this time, is different.

macgupta,

Your posts are interesting though your intent remains unclear.

``In fact, the shudra varna represented the ideal of bhakti, with a curiously paradoxical importance in traditional society. On the one hand, it was the way of the poor, the powerless and the uneducated; as they served those with more wealth and power and learning. On the other hand, in its deepest form, it was the highest way for everyone; as all trappings of the world had finally to be surrendered. And that deepest form of bhakti was not excluded from any class, no matter how high or low. Even beneath all the four varnas, the outcastes were paradoxically linked with the sannyasis, who in some ways had the highest status of all.``

Only two words. Absolutely disgusting.

``As teachers like Vivekananda and the late Kanci Shankaracarya keep pointing out...``

Vivekananda and the sankaracharya were both brahmins. You macgupta are a bania (no disrespect meant). Being beneficiaries of the caste system (call it what you will - jati,varna,whatever)...what entitles you to speak on behalf of the people left holding the dirty end of the stick???

You`ll agree perhaps that YOUR words carry no weight at all. Let a shudra or untouchable say how good the caste system is, how he`s polishing his bhakti by surrendering his belongings and his pride...that would be very acceptable.

The kerala example is also flawed. Are there no other hindu castes in kerala other than Nayars and Namboodiris? Please let us know in detail why Vivekananda called kerala a madhouse?

regards,

sadna # 52

Sadhnaji, thanks for the story. Very Interesting.

Ylh may have the last laugh. When we all are collecting social security here, he might be getting 21 gun salutes. He has good instincts to know how to impress the people who will matter to him. We, and our lectures on good manners, will not get him to where he wants to go.

Regards.

Dear author :

``...India is tied at a fundamental level to Brahminism and the Hindu religion, and that no matter how secular it purports to be, stories such as the Ramayan are still taken as literal truth in this day and age.``

``Again today we see, with the BJP in power, the rise of this Brahmin-style pattern of thinking. Where the religion becomes the ultimate authority and the religious figures become the ultimate diviners of that authority.``

Whoa, all this from just watching tape 2 of Ramayan? What I thought was a generally substandard production, turns out to be a most incisive commentary on Indian polity! Whaddaya know...

And now that you have aroused my curiosity, I am hungry for more. I`d love to know what you thought of certain choice segments of that hilarious religious comedy. I was just a kid then, but I remember even now we all used to count the days to Sunday when we`d get to watch another edition of the mysterious and comical exploits of Rama and company complete with cardboard mukuts, glue-on smiles and women who seemed to do nothing but weep, sometimes for weeks on end. It was a riot. We just loved Ravan`s handlebar moustache and Hanuman`s mile-long tail. Many muslim kids in my neighbourhood used to tack paper tails to their shorts and jump down a crumbling wall shouting ``Jai Shree Ram``, all day. It was more fun than a truckload of Manoj Comics and Lotepote.

So wont you enlighten us with an exposition of certain Ramayan arcana? In particular I`d like to know :

a) Dashrath has trouble procreating for many years. Then suddenly his wives are pregnant from the use of a fruit that Vashisht(?) supplied. Why was Dashrath so dumb? What does this tell about the IQ of current BJP politicians?

b) Sugriva plots to usurp his brother`s raj and rani. Clarify its significance vis-a-vis filial affiliation in BJP brahmins.

c) Why do arrows and assorted weapons take several minutes to traverse the battlefield, only to be met head on by equally stately arrows from the other side? What does this say about the quality of Indian defense equipment? Also, isnt this the final proof, if ever one was needed, that NMD is an ancient brahminical plot?

d) This one was the most puzzling when I was a kid, and I still dont get it - help! How can any human being, even if he was Lord Ram, continue to smile accurately and unchangingly for 55 weeks?

Any help is appreciated.

xxabbu

re: xxabbu # 63

LOL

re: anarayan # 61

Gupta, on this I will have to agree with anarayan. To all those who suffered terribly under the oppessive system of caste, any effort to `explain` caste is deeply offensive, even when the analytical objective is quite the opposite.

It is the same as in the case of slavery.

PS: I fully understand the urge Hindus may have to at least `explain` caste system when they are confronted by ignorant people who do not see the same problems that bedeveil their own traditions under slightly different guises. Yet, I would rather that all of us - Hindus, Muslims, and others - rise above our traditional moral limitations, see human beings as human beings, and move forward together toward a better future.

re harimau #40

`You tell me the name one single individual of minority religion in Pakistan who has reached the ranks of a Supreme Court justice`

Not to take away from the main thrust of your argument(which I do generally agree with), Pakistan`s first Chief Justice, A R Cornelius, was a Christian who migrated from what became the Indian Union; the late Dorab Patel, a Parsi, served on the Sindh High Court and later on the Supreme Court. Currently, Justice Rana Bhagwandas serves on the Supreme Court, I believe. Also, the late J N Mondol became the first speaker of the Pakistan Constituent Assembly.

Pardesi #62
Hope you didnot take my post #52 as a defence of anyone namely ylh on this board. On the contrary, the difference between empty gestures stemming from personal malice worn on one`s sleeve, on the one hand and the noisy rituals of genuine political activism on the other, is clear to ME, at least.

In student life, often this difference is slightly blurred, but ylh`s self-described actions donot qualify as anything but malice .

Bapuji, I am glad that you have recognised it for what it is....and that is precisely what the post is trying say about the the whole indo-pak affair. It is illusory and at times addictively hall....indeed the recent articles and interacts on this board increasingly lead me to beleive...that there is very little by way of real ideas and that we are increasingly being driven by an addiction, which causes a paucity of good useful ideas relevant to the 140million, but generates a plethora of useless analyses which doesnot solve the here and now.

being nameless - is a recognition of the that I come from nowhere am nobody am voiceless and nobody before me and after me much like a true human being. I do not carry baggage (ideological, lineage or otherwise) with which people can hand bag me .....

MacGupta 65 and 61,

I have to agree with narayan and eklavya, specifically regarding the effect of caste system in kerala. matrilineal system was a devise for the hign catse to retain the assets, only the eldest of the brahmin `married` all the other brothers had this `quasi marriage` which effectively denied them any inherirance as they were `legally` bas/ta/rds. Attempting to rationalise the caste system is self defeating while as a keralite I celebrate the way we have defeated the caste system theough institutional changes.

In the seventies we made an untouchable, remeber he is not the low catse, he is lower than the low caste, the chief priest of the `holiest` temple at Guruvayoor, the high caste brahmins had to receive the offerenigs from him, thorugh land reforms all of the brahmin wealth is gone, through the caste based reservation system we have ensured the education of the low caste, and to top it all up, to call an untouchable by his traditional name like pulayan, cheruman etc has been declared a cognisable offence, that is the untouchable has to just go and complain and it is up to the police to ccharge the offender and investigate. The low caste has to be called only the name that gandhi has given them `Harijan``.

In conclusion what is to be proud of is the changes we have brought about and we continue to bring to anull the bad past, not a reinterpretation to show how just the caste system was. No it was bad and change it we will.

This comes back to the pak question, the educated like the ylh, tahmed, godot and the like, underestimate the importance of institutional changes, they talk of implementation difficulties and become apologists for honour killing and the blasphemy laws. Coming form kerala, the stupidity of the pak educated is unforgivable in terms of their inaction to bring about any institutional changes.

regards

jay

anarayan -- unless I stand for election and gather some votes, nothing entitles me to speak for anyone but myself.

Sorry if you found the articles I posted unpalatable. Nevertheless, we have to examine the past. Stalin is directly responsible for 20 million or so deaths in the Soviet Union; but that should not stop one from studying the other things he did. And some people in India still honor Stalin -- is not one of ex-Tamil Nadu CM and DMK leader Karunanidhi`s sons named Stalin ? Why do you not say ``Absolutely disgusting`` to that ?

To remove the caste system, you have to attack it intelligently, and to do that you have to understand it. If you attack a mythical beast, you will get nowhere.

Regarding the other castes of Kerala, the third article that I was going to post dealt with that. As such, I will not post it, you can join the IndicTraditions group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indictraditions) if you are interested. ( In any case, as far as I know, the author of the articles I posted is not of Indian origin.)

-Arun Gupta

sac #45,

In the mid-90s, the U.K magazine, The Economist, published a statistic that in the US, if one did any one of three things, one was virtually certain (greater than 95% probability) to climb out of poverty.

1. Complete a high school diploma.

2. Get married and stay married.

3. Keep a job (any job) for an year

(In case 3. seems obvious, it is not). The point is that statistically, if one shows commitment and hard work, in the US, one is rewarded.

There are no doubt a lot of barriers that have been erected against 1., 2., 3., for some people.

-Arun Gupta

Acheron #35: I recently had a discussion with a couple of very senior retired Pakistani bankers, the other day. These guys have made their name on the international banking arena.

They seemed to suggest that Musharraf and his ideas, in some form or manner, needs to stay in power for ten years. They suggesting that currently the big Pakistani businessmen are taking their money out of Pakistan, since they are used to working in a corrupt system, and are thus not used to paying taxes. However, within four years or so, there will be a level playing field, and these people will start investing again.

The IMF has been saying the same, when it states that the current economic policies need to continue (translated, the Musharraf govt. needs to have influence over the political affairs of Pakistan, for a while). Pakistan`s economy is, rightly or wrongly, completely in control of the IMF. So whatever happens anywhere else is somewhat immaterial at the moment. Currently Pakistan has more credibility with these lending institutions than ever before. Pakistan has never received three successive tranches in his history, uptil now. This is a very good sign.

I have a lot of faith in Shaukat Aziz. I think he, and not Musharraf, is calling all the economic and social shots in Pakistan (it is impossible for a General to have in-depth knowledge of civlian matters like economics and finance). He is one of the most successful, if not the most successful, South Asians in the private international finance arena. He made it to the top of financial world with no international qualifications (just an MBA from IBA, Karachi).

Due to above, I am all in favor for Musharraf and an NSC keeping watch over the political system for a while. However, it is very imporatant for the military govt. to leave in three years. Otherwise, they will lose all credibility. Working in civilian depts. adversely affects the soldiers, also.

``Pakistan must keep her military on par with India, or at the very least must keep it from falling behind to the point where India holds a clear upper-hand. ``

I think Pakistan needs to do exactly the opposite. India`s military ratios are now completely out of proportion with respect to Pakistan. There is really no way for Pakistan to catch up. And it is pointless to attempt to do so. Pakistan should just keep a credible nuclear deterent, and actually downsize its military, or utilize the military in other areas, like rural education. This is exactly what seems to be happening. While India is raising its military budgets by gigantic percentages, Pakistan is lowering its military budget. In a sense, this is really a watershed point in Pakistan`s economic history.

``I ask earnestly if anyone has studied why Sadat in 1973 went to war against a militarily superior Israel?``

It is interesting you should mention this. The 1973 operation was an extremely brilliant operation militarily by Sadaat. The Israelis would have been dead had the Americans not moved in. However, I don`t think the same case applies in South Asia. India will not attack Pakistan, as long as Pakistan has a credible nuclear deterent. It would be foolish for it to do so. Similarly, it would be foolish for Pakistan to attack India. The current Indian policy has been to get Pakistan into an arms race, and drain it economically. However, Pakistan has wisely stepped out of the arms race.

I am not sure what India will do with its massive military budgets now. It will never have a powerful enough military to challenge China. And its military is already big enough to challenge Pakistan. What these massive military budget increases are doing is making India`s poor poorer, and increasing the chance of nuclear conflict in South Asia.

Eklavya #39: ``What ``Hindu`` patterns of thought, behavior, and being do you see dominating Islamic patterns of thought, behavior, and being in Pakistan?``

Have you ever attended a marraige in Pakistan? If you haven`t, then I would encourage you do so. After that, attend a marraige in Saudia Arabia or anywhere else in the, ``birthplace of Islam`` Arab countries. Apart from the religious obligations like mehar etc., the customs of marraiges in Pakistan are far more in line with those of India than those of most other Islamic countries.

Clothes, music, behavior, movies, social customs etc. in Pakistan are more in line with India than other places. I think one can safely say that the culture the Muslim invaders brought in with them was generally absorbed into the Hindu culture (there was no Indian culture at that time), and not vice-versa. This culture, with its philosophy and though patterns, subsequently ended up in Pakistan.

There are siginificant psychological hang-overs in Pakistan from the Hindu philosophy. There has always been an undefined caste system in Pakistan. Even now in Pakistan, people rarely marry below their baradari (a watered down version of caste), even though Islam is totally against the caste system. People still ask for massive amounts of dowry, although in Arab countries the groom dishes out the dowry, not the bride. Divorce is still a huge taboo for women in Pakistan, although in Islam there is absolutely no taboo attached to divorce. Etc. Etc.

Also, in Pakistan, the common citizen (even the educated one) is still more than willing to accept corrupt powerful people ruling over him/her indefinitely. They tend to substitute power for credibility. This is also, in my opinion, a psychological hangover from the Sub-Continent being ruled for 1000 by invaders, and our forefathers willingly accepting them as rulers, without challenging them (not counting my Rajput ancestors :), who apparently did challenge authority).

Perhaps the above are not directly a part of the Hindu philosophy, but definitely a part of the Hindu history, culture, and thought.

Romair #72 You make good points. You are wrong when you say: ``Also, in Pakistan, the common citizen (even the educated one) is still more than willing to accept corrupt powerful people ruling over him/her indefinitely. ``

I am one of these ``common citizens``, and educated one, and I am not willing to accept ``corrupt people`` or anyone ruling over me. What do you suggest I do: try to gain access to PM and explain to him that I dont like to be ruled by him or anyone else? (And PM is not even corrupt, so far, and is probably the best bet we have in Pakistan for now anyway).

And do you seriously think Arabs are different? Indeed, if there is a corner of the world where the rulers stay in power by virtue of force rather than by virtue of a democratic process, it is the Middle East.

I think you need to learn to respect the ``common citizens`` of Pakistan more.

It must give a nice feeling to blame every wrong in their society on someone else, namely Hindus. It sure beats voting!

Hindus and Hindu culture are responsible for all Pakistani dictators, rigged elections, corruption and misuse of funds, nepotism, lack of collective efffort to build institutions, AK-47 culture and urban violence.

Its logical then, that the author of this article emulates the example set by some of his `elders` blames the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Pakistan on Hindu priests, too.
Zia was a reincarnated Hindu and the Hudood laws, Federal Shariat Appellate court are all remanants of Hindu culture, as is blasphemy(a purely Hindu concept) and the Council for Islamic ideology(a collection of Hindu priests).

The same with Taliban, they are the original `Aryan` upper caste, afflicted with the Hindu rigidity with social structure, and making their women suffer in the throes of Hindu barbarity(remember Islam is very modern regarding women`s rights, unlike the pagans). Their drug culture derives mostly from the Bholenath rituals of imbibing bhang.

I am sure Hindu priests and Hindu culture are at the root of all Middle East blood letting(oh no thats a Hindu-Zionist preistly conspiracy).

Turkey clamped down on Islam in politics because of the local Kurdish version of Ramayana. The Khilafat is nothing but Ram rajya in disguise and armed jihad from GIA Algeria to Hizbollah in Iran to Mindano in Philipines is nothing but mistaken Bajrangis inspired by Hanuman. Or oh no, thats the true Muslims resisting Hindu culture, unlike passive and defeatist Hindus found in the REAL sham democracy on the subcontinent.

Or maybe the Hindu Cholas messed up the whole South East Asian Muslim scene, by exporting Hindu culture and making Malays for instance, discriminate against nonMalays and what to say, the violent imposition of Sharia in Nigeria is because Indian emigrants to Africa have totally messed up local cultures!


I know now, if any heinous Indian or Westerner questions, the need to bring Islam into the affairs of the state and they are berated for being `anti-Muslim`, it is solely because Muslims are mistakenly defending their Hindu roots.

Oh, and I forgot, Ahmeddiyas cannot be enough condemned for their Hindu roots displayed by their easy willingness to be misled by Hindu guru culture.

And lets see Benazir could do what she did because of the devi culture? Zardari was corrupt because he was the traditional damaad extracting the maximum from sasur, yes.

Bhutto sported a Brahmin`s knot in secret by which he was hanged, Nawaz Sharif`s meddling in Army affairs was a case of caste antagonism between the bania and the kshatriya. Fighters were generally traditional rulers in `Hindu ` culture, witness half a dozen military coups??

Lack of stable Constitution in Pakistan : nothing but the Hindu refusal to stick to one holy book.

The only reform seen so far in Pakistani culture with respect to lingering Hinduness is the readiness with which jihadis cross the boundaries and seas, now thats what you call opening up the closed Hindu society (where you lost caste if you do so) to the world in the manner of `go to China.. etc``

Re macgupta 73

And not to mention, there are also folks out in rural Tamil Nadu whose optimistic and hopeful parents foisted names on their children such as Roosevelt, Rockefeller, Bulganin and Lenin. Wasn`t there this farmer near Chandigarh who named his son after Skylab around the time it was supposed to hit the ground and North India was mentioned as a possibility.

re: Romair # 72

Romair bhai, without meaning any disrespect, I must say you made me laugh aloud. Because that is exactly the response I was expecting. This is THE view I see so often articulated in even the best of Pakistani newspapers and online magazines: everything good in Pakistan is attributed to pure Islam, everything `bad` becomes the burden for Hinduism to carry.

Perhaps my Pakistani friends have truly come to believe these things. Tony`s article carried the same flavor. But a closer look will tell you that such a view is completely wrong and is part of a larger mess we are all in - there is a need to put the other down any way we can.

I will expand on this a bit later when I have some more time.

Regards.

EK

Jay # 69,

To add to it further, India boasts of the World`s largest affirmative action programme for a section of its population. Even in a country like US, affirmative action for the African Americans is meagre.

The point is that a poor third world country like India, has realized the wrongs committed in the past to some of its own people, and they have used the institution to bring fundamental changes in the social fabric of India.

Adios

sadna: You forgot to mention another hindu/ Raw conspiracy. You mentiond following in post #55.

[Rama is traditionally dark too. A Tulsidas composition has Sita explaining about Rama and Lakshman:

``..Saanvaro se pritam, gore se dewarva..``

(the dark complexioned one is my husband and the light complexioned one is his younger brother)]

I did not know the famous Punjabi folk song, kala siah kala, mera kala hey sardar-goryaN nuN dafa karo`` has hindu religious background. The infiltration of Tulsidas writing in folklore must be a hindu conspiracy. I bet mullah do not know it, otherwise they have fatwaed by now and called for banning it in Pakistan.

Romair: Good points. I have fallen behind keeping up with latest on chowk, except desi aristocrats. Any way, it is difficult to distinguish between terms like hindu and native culture since lot of hinduism came out of native cultures and vice versa. It is not difficult to take pride or accept the native cultures without agreeing to India as the sole flag bearer of our collective heritage. Actually, India can never convince Bangladesh to be less intersted in native Bengali culture than themselves. Pakkistan must follow Bangladesh example to admit and own whatever cultural cards nature has dealt us. There are more Balochi, Sindhi, Pathan and Punjabi in Pakistan than in India and this fact should have been exploited to form a national identity instead of Islam. Of course, it would have required deeds and not just rhetoric. Sadly to say, India has more Punjabi dailies, publishes more books in Punjabi and have more prosperous Punjabis than in Pakistan.

Ref ROmair #73:

``There are siginificant psychological hang-overs in Pakistan from the Hindu philosophy``

No more, no more please my head is swelling up too fast for this!

good one dude!

SameerJB #82
The author says ``It is upto India to follow the lead of Pakistan``

No offence to anyone personally, but nothing sends more shivers up my spine than the thought of emulating the Hindu republic of Pakistan, esp since Romair is a supporter of military rule(as is perhaps fitting from his self-described Rajput roots).

The egalitarian legacy left behind by the Mughals and other Muslims who apparently `ruled Hindus for 1000 years` before adopting Hindu culture wholeheartedly, is good enough for us Indians :).

Poor Jinnah, TNT was all for nothing.

I mean, Indians are so spineless they go stand in the hot sun in long lines to push a stupid paper ballot into a box, so passively, without even a gun in sight, without even putting up a fight. They allow themselves to be branded on the little finger after that, with their customary fatalism just like their gau maa!!

Its understandably hard for others to shake off this coward`s malaise which is in their blood, though they have a separate country to do it in. They have bravely persevered in the last 50 years to shake free of such meaningless ritualism, including by making a big point about eating gau maa :)

Sadna, I think you`re taking it way too far... I`m not blaming everything on Hinduism and Hindu roots... I don`t think Hinduism has that strong of a hold on Islam for a few reasons:

The Islam you see being forced upon Pakistan by the religous extremists is not the type of Islam bred in Pakistan, but rather something imported from the Middle East and forced in. Islam that develops in Pakistan is a very liberal thing indeed, and better for all... but sadly we have these radicals trying to force everything into being Arabised... nothing wrong with being Arab at all, but many Pakis don`t want to be Arab; they`re happy being Paki.

Hinduism only influences Islam on the cultural level where it is telling that India and Pakistan have identical cultural roots. This much we know. But other than that I think it is VERY ambitious to say that Hinduism has played a very important role in the way Islam has developed and is responsible for the mentality of Muslims in the subcontinent.

The problem is that all the Talebani wannabes are just waiting for the next Hindu-nationalist statement out of India so they can use it to try and force many normal Pakis into a state of fear. It`s a terrible thing they do, but when you have a state that feels constantly threatened (and might I add with good reason due to the past history between the two) it is all too easy to get people into a state of fear where they feel that listening to the Mullahs is the best option.

re: DostMittar, Gupta

At an intellectual level, I understand the need fully analyze the caste system, if nothing else, then, as Gupta suggests, so that we can fight it best.

But for millions and millions of Indians caste is not merely an `intellectual` issue. It has been the bane of their lives. To them, caste has been a purely evil institution, to which they are unlikely to respond calmly or analytically. I suggest that we be extremely aware of the sensitivities of these brothers and sisters of ours.

I demand no moratorium on research or discussion related to caste. In fact, the more research we have the better for us.

What I would do if I could, would be to make sure that every discussion on caste (especially by non-Dalits) begins and ends with heartfelt apologies to the Dalits.

I dont think anybody would mind that.

Sadhana

``I mean, Indians are so spineless they go stand in the hot sun in long lines to push a stupid paper ballot into a box, so passively, without even a gun in sight, without even putting up a fight. They allow themselves to be branded on the little finger after that, with their customary fatalism just like their gau maa!!``

Ha ha. Sometimes you are very funny.

Ylh

You really are a hateful little prick aren`t you. ``To the Indian trying to raise his flag ....I was the one that slapped you`` ....Big Deal. Took a lot of balls doing that right. Slapping one Indian in the middle of hundreds of Pakistanis. At least that Indian dude had the guts to do something like that in the middle of a hundreds of Pakistanis. Doubt you would be capable of raising the Pakistani flag in the midst of a hundred Indian ones. You would probably be too scared to even come to an Indian concert. And if you did, it would probably be in a dhoti - kurta, and you`d probably introduce yourself as Ram Lal. I know your type.

Oh yeah, and if you were Indian doing the exact same to a Paki, I`d be equally outraged and slap you in the back of the head.

You are a disgrace to your own. I am fortunate that I have come across better Pakistanis in real life and base my opinion of the Pakistani people on them.

``This [acceptance of corrupt/powerful rulers] is also, in my opinion, a psychological hangover from the Sub-Continent being ruled for 1000 by invaders, and our forefathers willingly accepting them as rulers, without challenging them ``

Oh dear. Ever heard of elections, democracy, leadership CHANGES, etc taking place in India? Hardly call that ``willing acceptance`` now, would you? Or is it your thesis that certain subcontinental afflictions conspired to migrate solely to Pakistan? I could live with that, I suppose :-)

And such pathological obsequiousness being a mainly Hindoo trait, this should readily explain the stellar democratic credentials of purer lands like Saudi Arabia, UAE, Iraq, Syria, Malaysia, Indonesia, ...

What kind of tortuous worldview is it, that can make normally cogent people like Romair to rationalize thus??

Sadna #85 Congratulations on your millionth post where you repeat your profound and deeply insightful thought that ``We Indians good, you Pakis bad`` and provide the newsflash ``We Indians got democracy, you Pakis got dictatorship``. Here`s a thought: instead of typing this point over and over, month after month, article after article, why not program the computer to send over one such message per article on chowk every day with this message. You could then give your overworked brain a rest.

Eklavya, Bong_dongs: ``everything good in Pakistan is attributed to pure Islam, everything `bad` becomes the burden for Hinduism to carry.``

I am surprised both of you came up with the similar responses to my post.

Following are some of the things I mentioned in my post that are hangovers (the word hangover in this reply was used in the form of vestige, which means, ``trace.`` Not in the form of a hangover that people experience after heavy drinking, which bong-dongs reply seems to be implying): ``Marraige...Clothes, music, behavior, movies, social customs etc.`` I also stated that the Hindu culture was able to absorb the culture of the invaders.

To the best of my knowledge, these are not, ``bad`` things. However, from your responses, it seems they maybe considered bad in India. Could you please elaborate on this.

I also mentioned the following: an undefined cast system, taboo on divorces. Please correct me if I am wrong, but Pakistan did inherit these two things from somewhere. Perhaps from our common Belgian, Italian or Eskimo forefathers, if not from common Hindu forefathers.

To the best of my knowledge, all of the above, both the good and the bad, Pakistan has inherited from our (by our I mean Pakistan and India) historically common culture and philosophy, based on an interpretation of Hinduism. For some strange reason, both of you seem to only be concentrating on the negatives I have mentioned, and not the positives.

This seems to be a common trait I have noticed amongst Indian repliers. First many of them point out that Pakistanis tend to align themselves culturally with the Middle East, when they should align themselves with India (which is a pretty legitimate complain). When someone points out the good and bad that Pakistan has inherited from a common culture and philosophy, thereby pointing out the common traits, many Indian repliers narrow in on the negative points, and disregard the positive points that are mentioned. Its a lose-lose situation. Damned if you do, damend if you don`t.

Secondly, I did not point out anything good (or bad) that Pakistan has gained from Islam, since that was not the subject of the reply. Infact, I iterated exactly the opposite, i.e. Pakistan has not been able to inculcate into its society many of the good things offered by Islam.

If the only thing that will make you happy is a statement that Pakistanis have been able to clearly separate the positive and negative interpretations of their historical Hindu heritage, and have inculcated all the good the Hindu philosophy has to offer into their system, than that can be stated, as well. Howevever, that will not be the truth, since Pakistanis have not been able to do that. Although such a response may make you happy.

One should not consider everything a personal attack. What Pakistan and Pakistanis have inherited/inculcated into their system from various religions like Hinduism, Islam etc., that were part of the history of Pakistan, does not in any way serve as a benchmark of the legitimacy of those religions. Suppose Pakistan were to inherit or interpret into its society only the negatives of Islamic and Hindu societies. Would that make these religions inherently bad?

I consider debates on comparative religions a complete waste of time. They serve no purpose. My previous post was a reply to the following question posted by Eklavya:

``Can you please clarify how Hindu culture dominates Islamic culture in Pakistan?

Loosely, I understand culture to be generalized modes of behavior, thought, and being.

What ``Hindu`` patterns of thought, behavior, and being do you see dominating Islamic patterns of thought, behavior, and being in Pakistan?``

I attempted to answer the question to the best of my knowledge. Perhaps the question should have been rephrased, as follows:

Can you please clarify all the positive effect Hindu culture has had on Pakistan?

I would have then only pointed out the positives, and not both the positives and negatives. From your replies, it seems like you wanted an answer to this question, not the question you actually asked. I cannot read your mind, only the text you print here :) So basically, I stand by everything I stated in my previous reply.

Eklavya, Bong_dongs: ``everything good in Pakistan is attributed to pure Islam, everything `bad` becomes the burden for Hinduism to carry.``

I am surprised both of you came up with the similar responses to my post.

Following are some of the things I mentioned in my post that are hangovers (the word hangover in this reply was used in the form of vestige, which means, ``trace.`` Not in the form of a hangover that people experience after heavy drinking, which bong-dongs reply seems to be implying): ``Marraige...Clothes, music, behavior, movies, social customs etc.`` I also stated that the Hindu culture was able to absorb the culture of the invaders.

To the best of my knowledge, these are not, ``bad`` things. However, from your responses, it seems they maybe considered bad in India. Could you please elaborate on this.

I also mentioned the following: an undefined cast system, taboo on divorces. Please correct me if I am wrong, but Pakistan did inherit these two things from somewhere. Perhaps from our common Belgian, Italian or Eskimo forefathers, if not from common Hindu forefathers.

To the best of my knowledge, all of the above, both the good and the bad, Pakistan has inherited from our (by our I mean Pakistan and India) historically common culture and philosophy, based on an interpretation of Hinduism. For some strange reason, both of you seem to only be concentrating on the negatives I have mentioned, and not the positives.

This seems to be a common trait I have noticed amongst Indian repliers. First many of them point out that Pakistanis tend to align themselves culturally with the Middle East, when they should align themselves with India (which is a pretty legitimate complain). When someone points out the good and bad that Pakistan has inherited from a common culture and philosophy, thereby pointing out the common traits, many Indian repliers narrow in on the negative points, and disregard the positive points that are mentioned. Its a lose-lose situation. Damned if you do, damend if you don`t.

Secondly, I did not point out anything good (or bad) that Pakistan has gained from Islam, since that was not the subject of the reply. Infact, I iterated exactly the opposite, i.e. Pakistan has not been able to inculcate into its society many of the good things offered by Islam.

If the only thing that will make you happy is a statement that Pakistanis have been able to clearly separate the positive and negative interpretations of their historical Hindu heritage, and have inculcated all the good the Hindu philosophy has to offer into their system, than that can be stated, as well. Howevever, that will not be the truth, since Pakistanis have not been able to do that. Although such a response may make you happy.

One should not consider everything a personal attack. What Pakistan and Pakistanis have inherited/inculcated into their system from various religions like Hinduism, Islam etc., that were part of the history of Pakistan, does not in any way serve as a benchmark of the legitimacy of those religions. Suppose Pakistan were to inherit or interpret into its society only the negatives of Islamic and Hindu societies. Would that make these religions inherently bad?

I consider debates on comparative religions a complete waste of time. They serve no purpose. My previous post was a reply to the following question posted by Eklavya:

``Can you please clarify how Hindu culture dominates Islamic culture in Pakistan?

Loosely, I understand culture to be generalized modes of behavior, thought, and being.

What ``Hindu`` patterns of thought, behavior, and being do you see dominating Islamic patterns of thought, behavior, and being in Pakistan?``

I attempted to answer the question to the best of my knowledge. Perhaps the question should have been rephrased, as follows:

Can you please clarify all the positive effect Hindu culture has had on Pakistan?

I would have then only pointed out the positives, and not both the positives and negatives. From your replies, it seems like you wanted an answer to this question, not the question you actually asked. I cannot read your mind, only the text you print here :) So basically, I stand by everything I stated in my previous reply.

drum:

(I worry about you people sometimes. The repression must be awful...)

somebody needs to spank you

Acheron2 #86
`` The problem is that all the Talebani wannabes are just waiting for the next Hindu-nationalist statement out of India so they can use it to try and force many normal Pakis into a state of fear. It`s a terrible thing they do, but when you have a state that feels constantly threatened (and might I add with good reason due to the past history between the two) it is all too easy to get people into a state of fear where they feel that listening to the Mullahs is the best option.``

Acheron2, perhaps you were not born then, but I suggest you look up a person called Zia-ul-Haq who 1977?-1989?. There is a country to your west called Afghanistan, and the Taliban was taught religion in madarassahs in Pakistan set up for the very purpose.

It seems unbelievable that you ignore whats been INSTITUTIONALLY over decades by Pakistanis themselves and whine about everyone else, but its par for the course. ``The state of fear of mullahs`` due to Hindus indeed, what a laugh.

And let me introduce you to Romair #71. Do pl. take it from here.

Let me summarize. Pakistanis allow mullahs and feudals to strut about creating fear because of Hindu culture in Pakistanis. Pakistanis are not able to tell them off because of Hindus outside Pakistan. Should we perhaps send over a spare Shankaracharya to sort it out?(I think we have at least one spare)

tahmed321 #87
All thats old hat. Being a Hindu I am just commiserating with y`all for the fatalism and `psychological hang-overs` remaining in Pakistan due to Hindu culture.

Ref ROmair,

Dude I have nothing against you personally and if might allow me to say something without imagining it to be patronising or condescending:

1) other than some unorthodox (wierd?) geo-political and strategic ideas (maybe you should try reading somebody other than Margolis or Cloughley?) I know your heart is in the right place.

2) just try to read what you have written from the point of view of a hindu/indian and tell me what you understand from it.

3)and could you tell me what do you think the deal is with Sadna?

Ref Italian mian:

yaar koi mujhe samjhaye eiska funda kya hai? Koi Paki chori ke peche hai kya?

This is a poorly written article. The author should have sticked with an analysis of how & why the clergy in Islam gained the power they hold today. I don`t see what this has to do with either Ramayana, the Brahmins or the Indians.

re: Dost-Mittar # 100

Valid point, Sir.

re: Romair # 91

I think we have something important going on here, both for Pakistanis and Indians. My purpose was to bring our latent, taken-for-granted beliefs to the surface, so that we can throw the light of reason on them. And no!! I didnt want you to recount the `good` effects of Hinduism on Pakistan :)! More later.

Regards,

EK

RE: Acheron2#86

I must confess that I find your responses odd. You said:

“The Islam you see being forced upon Pakistan by the religious extremists is not the type of Islam bred in Pakistan, but rather something imported from the Middle East…”

Correct me if I’m wrong, Islam DID come to the subcontinent from the Middle East. That is to say, it IS an import from there. What is your point here?

You also said:

“Hinduism only influences Islam on the cultural level where it is telling that India and Pakistan have identical cultural roots. This much we know. But other than that I think it is VERY ambitious to say that Hinduism has played a very important role in the way Islam has developed and is responsible for the mentality of Muslims in the subcontinent.”

Er…culture IS a major factor in forming a people’s (or person’s) mentality (is it not?). In other words, it plays a “very important role” in shaping this mentality. Mentality, in turn, affects how we approach and understand things - including religion.

It doesn`t seem to make sense that Hinduism has influenced popular culture in the Muslim majority areas of the subcontinent but has somehow not played much of a role in forming people’s mentality in these areas (including how they see religion). It doesn’t seem to make sense, but perhaps you can explain what I didn’t understand here?

[Other side of the coin: I also think that Islam has affected Hinduism as practiced on the subcontinent, and has certainly influenced the popular culture of India. This is, btw, acknowledged by India whose constitution recognises three “classical languages”: Sanskrit, Persian and Arabic.]

I’d like to take this opportunity to point out that the responses to this article (101 to date) have far outstripped in number and occasional spite my other two favourite discussion threads on Chowk: those responding to Veeresh Mallik’s dissertation on kebabs (87) and to Ms Shandana Minhas’ fascinating analysis of Lahore (64); and this despite none of the critiques of physiognomy which eventually crept into the other two.

Finally I’d like to thank Ms Sadna. If I had to vote for most entertaining response I’d vote for yours (#76 onwards). And also my hat off to the people who tried to respond to her. You may have failed miserably, but you’re bloody brave for trying. Mujh se tho nahin hotha.

Reply #: 93 egalitarian_brahmin

``Today, India’s conventional forces enjoy a comfortable superiority over their Chinese counterparts in the Himalayan theater; the Indian Army has superior firepower, better-trained soldiers, carefully prepared defenses, and more reliable logistics. Similarly, the Indian Air Force has better aircraft, superior pilots, and excellent infra-structure and would most likely gain tactical superiority over the battlefield within a matter of days if not hours in the event of renewed Sino-Indian hostilities.``

An interesting quote from RAND (whose legitimacy I don`t doubt at all), but highly irrelevent as far as we are concerned with a Sino-Indian war.

This speaks about Indian forces in the Himalayan theatre today and if China attacked TODAY. If China wanted to attack, she would move her elite units into position and the cream of her airforce as well. India`s army in that theatre might be superior right now, but in the case of China mobilising and moving her army (most of which is trying to gain influence in East Asia right now) into the fray, I can safely say that she would give India a terrible tasting. Especially if she attacked first. Let us also remember that any Sino-Indian war in this age would most likely involve Pakistan, whose Airforce is probably the top in the world (depending on which military source you read, such as Jane`s or Chuck Yeager). India need only look at Germany during both world wars to realise that fighting a two front war is suicide. That is why it is in her best interests not to try and compete for hegemony over Asia with China but rather try and maintain friendly relations and reap the rewards that trading with the world`s soon to be largest economy will gain her.

I`m not saying that India`s army is inept, as some do; far from it I think they have made tremendous strides since the last major war. But I do think that when you want to post items from RAND or other groups, and I encourage it because I always like to know new things, you remember the context in which the statements are made :)

sadna #102 ``I am just commiserating with y`all``

Why Ga-a-a-wd aw-mighty, that be mighty kind of y`all, Missy. Now Ah reckon Ahl just run on over to the rest of dem Pakis and pass on over to em the kind commiserations from y`all. Lordy, Lord, we be so-o-o bad and Missy`s commisertions just keep on comin` and comin`. And y`all remember us lowdown Pakis to the good master Jay Thakeray, wont ya please missy?

Reply #: 103 Zafar Al-Talib

``Correct me if I’m wrong, Islam DID come to the subcontinent from the Middle East. That is to say, it IS an import from there. What is your point here?``

You`re absolutely right, and I you can tell I rushed out the last post (had to go somewhere) because I just fired away without explaining everything...

Yes, of course Islam came from the Middle East. However, the Islam that came out from the ME over 1500 years ago is very different than the Islam that we have today. The development of States has led to the concept of the ``Islamic State`` where Shari`a has been implemented. This has never been the case before. Even in the great Islamic Empires, the Caliphs were known to party-down. It`s only recently that we see an emphasis being placed upon getting back to the golden age; the Muslims of long ago would have laughed at these Deobandi warriors and said ``STUDY I.T.!!!``. However, in the Subcontinent there has always been a different strand of Islam, agreed? It has been in some ways been influenced by Hinduism and Hindu culture as we can see in CULTURAL aspects such as the Islamic Wedding. What I meant, in essence, was that the Islam you see today is influenced by radicalism that has been to a degree imported from the Middle East FOR EXAMPLE when all of the Pakistani expatriots came back from working in the Gulf and had adapted some of their versions of Islam. Saudi Islam and Pakistani/ Indian Islam is different, no? :)

``It doesn`t seem to make sense that Hinduism has influenced popular culture in the Muslim majority areas of the subcontinent but has somehow not played much of a role in forming people’s mentality in these areas (including how they see religion). It doesn’t seem to make sense, but perhaps you can explain what I didn’t understand here?``

Ok, I have to try and draw lines about ethnicity and religion and the concept of the ``ethnic Muslim``. You are right when you say that it influences the way people see their religion, but what was aiming at was the fact that Islam has some major cross-cutting cleaveges with regards to culture and ethnicity. In essence, the aspects of the religion that can be affected culturally have been (i.e. the wedding example above) but Muslims still pray in Arabic and still don`t eat pork or drink wine, both of which are ok in Hinduism. Perhaps this has cleared something up, and maybe it has made it more confusing :) I hope for the former, but let me know if you still have questions about it I will be more than happy to try and answer them as best I can.

Doctrine of utility

Javed A Khan

Every leader who has came to power in Pakistan, except Quaid-i-Azam, by virtue of elections or military takeover, justifies every wrong action of his/her by saying that it was done in the supreme interest of Pakistan.

History reveals that almost all the leaders who tried to justify the wrong ``in the supreme interest of Pakistan`` have had an unfortunate end; Bhutto gallows, Zia aircraft blast, Benazir Bhutto self-exiled and spouse in jail, Nawaz Sharif convicted and exiled.

I wonder what would be the end result of our valiant hero of Kargil. The only slot of power that has not been exercised by any leader in Pakistan is monarchy. Under the supreme need, this can be done with the help of a Provisional Constitution Order. This will sound nice to His Royal Majesty, President of Pakistan, Joint chief of Staff and Chief of Army Staff and (King) Pervez Musharraf.

Peshawar

//from jung of today.

MAKING OF A SERIAL KILLER,

``Curiously, there is a triad of symptoms that is disconcerting. If a child has

a) fascination with fire/pyromania

b) bedwetting

c) cruelty to animals``

There should be a few parents on the chowk. The above are the symptoms of a serial killer in the making, according to a well known shrink on chowk.

Watch out dear parents when your little one wants to catch a butterfly, wants to play with the matches. The quote is from the `white sharade` thread.

We interrupt this discussion to bring the following important message from today`s Dawn online: ``Under the amended law, a juvenile terrorist would not be awarded capital punishment and he would have a chance to come out of jail after serving the life imprisonment. ``

In other words, this law would provide the inmate a chance to come out of jail once he is pronounced legally dead (at which time life imprisonment is considered to have been served). The good Dawn journalist does not explain what happens if the dead inmate fails to avail of this chance to come out of prison.

SameerJB #82
``The infiltration of Tulsidas writing in folklore must be a hindu conspiracy. I bet mullah do not know it, otherwise they have fatwaed by now and called for banning it in Pakistan.``

Sameer, what you mention could be from the Krishna tradition, too, he too was dark.
btw, thats the inherent trickiness of the whole thing, to know say Hindu tradition has infiltrated, first you need to know about Hindu tradition. Now what sort of mullah would know about Hindu tradition? Only one with an open mind hehehe. The rest will be chasing rumors :).


Those who were brave-enough-to-reply :):

The fact remains that unless Pakistanis like chowkwallahs get to play a more active role in Pakistani affairs, all these theories of the Hindu in the house or Hindu across the way excuses for continued inaction.

I donot agree with Jay always, but he is right on the mark #69

Esp in Kerala, you have to see to believe the magnitude of change brought about in the structure of (still) deeply traditional Hindu society, and most of it peacefully accepted due to being through democratic process, to understand the meaning of ``institutional changes``.

From The Hindustan Times today:

Agra Summit

By Romesh Bhandari

Ever since Independence, Kashmir has made adversaries out of India and Pakistan.

Wars have been fought, meetings on all levels have taken place. Great amounts have been spent by both sides on defence. Yet another effort to find a solution will be made when President Pervez Musharraf visits India on July 14.

The upcoming summit has already attracted greater attention than previous ones. Rajiv Gandhi and Zia-ul-Haq met in February 1985 in Moscow. Both were attending the funeral of the Soviet President. They decided that I (then foreign secretary) should visit Pakistan and start a fresh dialogue. President Zia was very enthusiastic and said that there could not be better conditions as on his side he had Sahibzada Yakub Khan as foreign minister and Niaz Naik as foreign secretary. Both were committed to friendly Indo-Pak relations.

I visited Pakistan and several meetings took place between Naik and me. These led to President Zia coming to Delhi on a working visit in mid-December 1985. Rajiv Gandhi and Zia-ul-Haq agreed on a step-by-step approach, which if it yielded positive results would culminate in a visit by the Indian Prime Minister to Pakistan. The two decided that an agreement would be signed on `non-attack` on each other`s nuclear installations. The first step, a visit by the then finance minister, V.P. Singh, to Pakistan, was very successful. A number of measures were agreed upon which would give a major boost to our economic exchanges. The next step was a visit by me for foreign secretary-level talks.

My wife and I received an extremely warm welcome. I was, however, to receive a shock the next morning when I read in the papers that the Muslim League had passed a resolution stating that economic exchanges between India and Pakistan were against the interests of Pakistan, and that the Kashmir problem could only be resolved under UN resolutions.

A representative of the Muslim League, M.K. Junejo, had just been appointed the Prime Minister. This made the resolution even more potent. I told Naik that I had better pack my bags and return home. He urged that I first meet their new Prime Minister and President. At the meeting with Junejo, I raised the matter. He replied that what he had stated was the position of the Muslim League and it was not binding on the government.

I met President Zia that afternoon. He assured me that the Muslim League resolution in no way diluted his own commitment to improve relations. It only showed the kinds of problems and resistance he was facing from political parties who were only interested in getting votes. He seemed concerned and sincere. I suggested that there should be at least some signal from Pakistan that they were sensitive to India`s concerns.

A verdict in respect of hijackers of an Indian Airlines plane was due. I mentioned that a strong punishment would assure the Indian public that Pakistan was sincere. President Zia was rather uncomfortable with what I suggested. But a few days later, when I was in Karachi, I was taken to see the President who was visiting the city that day. Zia asked me to convey his greetings to Rajiv Gandhi and indicated that what had been suggested was being done.

My visit to Pakistan, however, turned out to be the last step in the understanding reached in Delhi. It was clear that `internal forces` had prevailed. Zia had serious problems with Junejo.He dismissed him and dissolved the National Assembly on May 31, 1988. Zia was killed in an air crash in August 1988.

In 1991, when Rajiv Gandhi was no longer Prime Minister, he mentioned that Zia and he had come to an understanding which would have settled the Kashmir problem. The solution died with Zia. An agreement on the `non-strike` on each other`s nuclear installations was, however, signed some years later by another regime.

What is different now that could give us some hope? Pakistan is on the verge of bankruptcy. The country is also facing great social and political unrest. Sind and Baluchistan are fed up with the domination of Punjab. If Islamabad does not handle the situation properly, there could be another Bangladesh in the making. The very unity and economic stability of Pakistan is at stake.

At the same time, we have given Pakistan the advantage of having nuclear weapons — thereby gifting away our superiority in conventional warfare. The adventure in Kargil would never have taken place otherwise. We have also shown our weakness by not being able to handle the internal situation in Kashmir.

It has been almost 30 years since the Simla agreement. We have failed to provide the Kashmiris with peace and security. We have not given them economic development or an environment in which they could improve their living conditions. We have shown our own ineptness which Pakistan is taking advantage of.

It is in the interest of both countries that something concrete comes out of the summit. What we do not want is a visit that results only in atmospherics with the two leaders playing to their respective domestic lobbies. Peoples in both countries want an end to the Kashmir crisis.

In any kind of negotiations, there is a minimum threshold below which one cannot settle. Is even our minimum going to be acceptable to Pakistan? And vice versa? It is doubtful unless Musharraf is prepared to consider something centred on the LoC. Regardless of the outcome, however, we must keep talking. A breakthrough may appear in the form of a permanent bilateral ministerial committee.

We must come to an agreement aimed at reducing to the extent possible risks of a nuclear war. We could agree to keep the LoC `cool` (as has been done on the Sino-Indian border), remove restrictions and go ahead with improving and expanding exchanges in the economic, cultural and social fields. Will this be acceptable to Musharraf and our home ministry? Let us hope and wait.

Eklavya #88: ``What I would do if I could, would be to make sure that every discussion on caste (especially by non-Dalits) begins and ends with heartfelt apologies to the Dalits.

I dont think anybody would mind that.``

Just a silly question (and please dont let this interrupt your verbally orgasmic posts on love and peace on chowk.com) - coming from India, how do you see the caste relations there?

Hoping in real life no self-flagellating liberal Hindu/Indian has to oblige a Drona by giving up their spine and pragmatism. Even in letter.

Get back to you later.

PS: A technical question - are sudras considered dalits - anyone?

Jay,

#107

Go read that post again, in its entirety. In the meantime, I have to take a bath because your accursed shudra shadow has fallen on me.

Ref Acheron2 #102

Chia - India - PAF etc

Dude, why dont you keep talking about religion where I do not pretend to know anything and I`ll let you go by. If you start speaking about stuff I pretend to know something about it will be a differnt story.

re. macgupta`s revisiting of Casteism & eklavya`s (earlier) objections

Arun (mc)Gupta has done a quite good job of presenting the case for varna. It might wrankle Indians because of the real pain it has caused the lower- and out-castes for centuries. However, it is no different from the ordering of classes in Ancient Greece, and even Plato`s much touted Republic. And far from merely providing a dispassionate treatment of the origins of the casteism, the articles macgupta reproduced do lend a sense of a transcendant (i.e beyond self-interest) element to the whole deal.

That any such system is so open to abuse is a no brainer. But who knows what the checks and balances (perhaps non-institutionalised) to this system might have been in times of yore!

In any case, discussing the subject on he chowk cannot realistically amount to violence upon anyone.

rgds,

PM

The literary world lost a true gem: May Agha Shahid Ali rest in peace. His words were as beautiful as Kashmir`s vales and hills. He`ll be truly missed!

THE EDITOR REVISITED

You still haven’t called me a poet, Dear Sir,

and I’ve been at it,

this business of meanings, sometimes delayed,

selling words in bottles, at times in boxes.

I began with a laugh, stirred my tea with English,

drank India down with a faint British accent,

temples, beggars, and dust

spread like marmalade on my toast:

A bitter taste: On Parliament Street

a policeman beat a child on the head.

Hermaphrodites walked by in Saffron saris,

their drums eching a drought-rhythm.

The Marxists said,

In Delhi English sounds obscene.

Return to Hindi or Bengali, eachword will burn

like hunger.

A language must measure up to one’s native dust.

Divided between two cultures, I spoke a language foreign even to my ears;

I diluted it in a glass of Scotch.

A terrible trade, my lip service to Revolution

punctuated by a whisly-god.

Now collecting a degree in English,

will I embrace my hungry country

with an armful of soliloquies?

This trade in words continues however as

Shakespeare feeds my alienation.

Please note, Dear Sir, my terrible plight

as I collect rejection slips

from your esteemed journal.



He will Surely Be Missed!

Reply #: 6

Eklavya

I think the author is just trying to prove a point here... hes just telling us what he thought about that ramayan movie.. hes not dis-respecting his friends father or insulting his religious enthusiasam and u say it. It doesnt matter where he saw the movie.. what matters is what he thought about indians and hinduism after that. movie.

#: 21 ylh

``Just because Junoon app ko ghass dalte hain doesnt mean that they are not nationalistic Pakistanis...``

haha that was some reply:P... i agree with u whole-heartedly.!

#: 23 ylh

I agree with you there aswell... thank God there are some intelligent ppl around here. ( no offence intended everyone)

#: 28 iqbal Kasim

i agree that by definition Pakistan is not a secular nation!!But i dont agree with you when you say that india is a secular nation...why?because even though india is a multi-religious country,isnt it aslo called HINDUSTAN??? isnt that name connected with their religion?If pakistan is called an Islamic Republic then doesnt it mean anything when INDIA is called HINDUSTAN?

#: 12 iqbal kasim

you said

``I do not know how you are saying that

`` Pakistan has law and order``- go and look at Sindh and its dacoits and kidnappings. We have such a great law and order system that the Army throws the Government out every few years and for more than half our tramautic history we have been under the thumb of an army dictator. ``

Mr Kasim every country has its dacoits and kidnappings...it doesnt mean they dont have law and order.Look at USA,England, et al ... they also have Law & Order yet they have the highest crime rate. I agree we dont really have the best kind of ``law & Order`` but our government is trying .. atleast we have some kind of law.

Secondly... it sounds like u dont like military power... you criticize the army for throwing the govt out every few years,yet you dont look at the reason behind it.Why does the army do that?Because the 2 major political parties bankrupted Pakistan.If Nawaz Sharif was the president any longer we would not have survived... Musharraf couldnt just sit there and watch Nawaz Sharif destroy Pakistan.He had to do something!!

Maybe Musharraf craved for Power...maybe that is why he is now the president but atleast we got rid of Those Two Stupid Parties!!!Good Riddance!

btw sorry my reply is a little late...

i just checked these replies :)

From BBC: ``Mr Vajpayee has also instructed the coastguard in future to turn back rather than arrest Pakistani fishermen who cross inadvertently into Indian territory, Ms Rao said.

...Correspondents say that the issue has long been a sore point in bilateral relations. ``

A decent move by Vajpayee. (I chose to ignore the cynics and those who think the fear of ISI or RAW agents is adequate reason to imprison hundreds of poor fishermen from both countries). It does raise the question: Why do bilateral relations have anything to do with what should have been a human rights issue all along.

BBC continues: ``Other measures included the elimination of tariffs on 50 product lines of Pakistani imports to India, and the introduction of 20 scholarships for Pakistanis to study in Indian technical institutes.``

Hats off to Vajpayee. I hope Musharraf has the guts to reciprocate two-fold.

dost-mittar #113
Just a comment: what some people consider to be essentially liasons some other people consider to be essentially marriages.
Surplus Namboodiri girls : There was a documentary on Kerala`s local language TV about a number of Namboodiri girls who converted to Catholicism 100-150+ years ago to be free of the numerous restrictions on them, primarily marriage.

tahmed321 #108
Doesnot life imprisonment often mean 20-25 years? So if a juvenile begins his term at an age of 17, he would be out of jail by the age of 40 or so.

Reply to Acheron2 # 105

It seems to me that the fundamentalist response, in any culture or religion, is a reactionary one spearheaded by individuals and groups threatened by change because (1) they can’t control its outcomes to their own continued benefit, (and) often because (2) they don’t entirely understand it.

The subcontinent did not experience “fundamentalist religion” for many years, because the way ordinary people perceived themselves and their societies had not fundamentally changed for centuries. We were a feudal, static society regardless of the religion, ethnicity or language of our rulers. As soon as social change accelerated (along with social uncertainty), fundamentalist religious movements and identities – both Hindu and Muslim - gained strength. (This is also when secular fundamentalism gained strength - the nationalist and communist movements.)

Why? Because these movements provide predigested answers. They also ALL refer to a Golden Age (for Muslims perhaps the time of the Prophet, for Hindus perhaps Ram Rajya) when life was lived according to these answers. The implications are that if we all lived as they did during the Golden Age all our questions would be answered, and that if we were virtuous and happy once we could be again - so long as we all followed the rules expounded by whichever movement happened to be preaching at the time. Fundamentalism purports to provide simplicity when life is not simple. It claims to work so long as people do not ask questions.

Following this logic “fundamentalist religious movements” have understandably cropped up across the world for authentically indigenous reasons. The Golden Age they refer to varies, of course, according to the tradition they find themselves in. Muslims naturally think of the time of the Prophet, and by extension, the Middle East. Hindus of Ram Rajya, and Ancient India. In other paradigms people think of other places – for example Rastafarianism refers to Ethiopia, the only part of Africa not thoroughly colonised by Europe. Let’s not even start on the Crusades and Catholic Europe`s fixation on Earthly Jerusalem. More prosaically, the civil religion Mussolini ascribed to, aka fascism, harked back to a certain empire centred in Rome (And diaspora Judaism referred/refers to the Promised Land. A worrying actual outcome for other fundamentalists to ponder, but let those that have eyes to see....)

So I don’t think that self styled “radical Islam” (actually profoundly reactionary, but let it go) in the subcontinent is an imported phenomenon. Of course it refers to histories and events elsewhere in the world – we are all connected – but it occurs for subcontinental reasons. If Indian and Pakistani workers abroad bring back a “Saudi” version of Islam it’s not just because they were passingly exposed to it and picked it up like a case of the ‘flu. It’s because of a popular subcontinental perception that the Saudi version is more authentic. (Well that’s where Mecca Medina are, right?) And if it’s taken up on the subcontinent, it’s because it addresses subcontinental social uncertainties and needs. If it was soooo alien to how people think in India and Pakistan, nobody would pay it any attention. If (as I suspect) you feel that so called “radical religion” is not a good idea, calling it a dutty phorin impote doesn’t really counter it. You have to put forward something which meets the needs it does in a better way. (…er….ahem…I, of course, have made no such claim and hence do not feel bound to profer anything of the sort…blush, blush…cough….)

I’m afraid we must agree to disagree on the cultural perception of religion in the subcontinent thing. You’ve pointed out that Hinduism and Islam have different “forbidden things” (beef on one hand, pork and wine on the other) and different liturgical languages (Sanskrit and Arabic). Does the fact that these forbidden things and liturgical languages are different mean that Hindus and Muslims on the subcontinent have different mentalities, despite their many other cultural similarities? Or does the fact that Hindus and Muslims on the subcontinent both have “forbidden things” and liturgical languages, in addition to all their other cultural similarities, result in their having similar, if not identical, mentalities? Hmmmmm? Anyway, thank you for your response, and I hope that this makes my questions/disagreements understandable. For the rest of you at Chowk (assuming you have made it this far) I apologise for the length of my posting and will try to be less verbose in future.

Ref: Klutz 117

I just did a web search for the etymology of Hind. An Urdu dictionary on the web (address below) gave the meaning of Hind as: Hindustan, Bhaarath, India.

(Dictionary at:

http://www.rajiv.org/iu/urdudic.html)

I believe that Hind is the way incoming people at that time pronounced Indus. So Hindustan is actually named after a river now found in Pakistan. And Hindi is not much spoken near the Indus. And not many Hindus at all are found near the Indus. If it makes you feel better, Urdu was at one time referred to as Hindavi. What is one to think?

Speaking of names, is Pakistan only for ``pure`` people? What about the rest of you?

MATRILINEAL SYSTEM,

As far as I know, this system is not practiced. Legally, the matrilineal system in terms of inheritance is abolished by the hindu succession act of 1950 something, which basically states that all children including girls have equal right to the property of the mother and father, and a will that doest meet the above crteria can be challenged.

We are essentially talking about what it was. Namboodiris were the land owners, the eldest married a namboodiri woman, but could also have `sambadam`, laison with other nair women. The namboodiris were free to go to other lower castes as well, it was considered a great honour to rope in a namboodiri, but they usually didnot. A namboodiri could have as many as he liked. He only went to the nairs house only at dusk, the woman was supposed to wait with a lamp at the dusk time. During the day, he stayed in his `tharawad`, or family house looking after land.

Many nambiidiri women didnot get married, but were looked after by the married sister. Lack of having a male child was addressed by marrying more namboodiri women. In some cases of childlessness, the younger brother assumed the lead role.

The Nair women, because there was no full time man in the house relied on the brother, and that is how the `mama` became surrogate father.

The essential aspect of all this is that the brhmins controlled the land. A typical brahmin house is a marvelous structure, house all roud, two stories with a courtyard in the centre. The `nalukettu`, only a very few are left in dilapilated condition.

A friend on mine a few years ago, demolished the nalukettu in kerala, and used the wood to make a beautiful house in Bagalore.

The hindu succession act, the land cieling act by the marxists, the education and lack of interest of the young namboodiris to lead a rural life lead to the devatation of the namboodiris.

Today, their average income will not be much higher than the average for the state. Most of the namboodiris have moved with their children to the cities, a very few eke out a living doing temple service, which in kerala is a governement job, with some tips from the devotees.

A structure may be a thousand years old was demolished in about fifty years. No one, including the namboodiris I know dont complain about, so is the power of education and a sense of justice.

regards

jayaprakash.

http://india_resource.tripod.com/social.htm

-Arun Gupta

A tale of two views: The Taj for Musharraf, gardens for Vajpayee

General’s 3,000-square-feet Kohinoor suite has original Mughal works including one showing Aurangzeb being greeted at Lahore

Nirmala Ganapathy

Agra, July 4: IF a room with a view makes a difference, then you can expect great things from Pakistan President General Pervez Musharraf. Walk into the Kohinoor suite on the fifth floor of the Oberoi group’s Amar Vilas Hotel, where Musharraf will stay from July 14 to July 16, and you get a stunning view of the Taj Mahal, specifically, the three minarets and the two mosques.

///from indian express. That suite is worth the presidency of pakistan, where ever he may have to land on return to pakistan.

PM #120: ``But who knows what the checks and balances (perhaps non-institutionalised) to this system might have been in times of yore!``

My grouse today is that if there is any literature about the caste relations as they do exist in the towns and villages of India I am not aware of it. Even for the `educated` today the Hindu society is made up of 4 castes and the untouchables/panchamas. That there are so many castes (and so many family professions cutting across the avocations assigned to these 4 groups) and that `the social structure` is not rigid enough for the brahmanas to wield power over a group of people today is a thought that requires breaking away from the image/history that is written about the system so far; and that should be too much for an educated brain from a third-wrold country.

And the caste system today is not limited to the Hindus - I know Christian families who try to marry only from within the (Hindu) castes that they converted from.

``In any case, discussing the subject on he chowk cannot realistically amount to violence upon anyone.``

And we will be around just in case Gupta or his Vivekananda or Sankaracharya (quickly browsed through part of the article) crosses the line anytime! :-)

`the Greek reference`

Around the 2-3rd century AD, an order was passed in the Roman Empire to `freeze` the family professions - the sons are to follow their father`s profession only. From what I remember, this was to control the confusion due to the huge movement of people across the Empire (that spanned a good part of the continent).

Later.

Dear Author,

Brahmins are not just religious schoolars they were the teachers, the guide. To this day in our society respecting our teachers is considered to be the right conduct. By giving it a religios conotation you are producing a skewed view. It is only because of this fact that the imparter of knowledge was placed in the upermost heirarchy in the caste system.

As for guru-reverence in Islam, well it could be seen in the reverence of Quran as well as in the reverence of the Prophet. However such staunch reverence is not found amongst the Sikhs, who also pay homage to their gurus as well as the Granth Sahib.

Every religion has its strong and weak points. Every religion sometimes tends to bent towards illogical belif. However after reading many articles on this site, I find that many author simply overlook this aspect and enjoys ripping down Hinduism as if to prove a point.

Mona

Ekalavya :

Whatever lawbooks applied in the past in Hindu society, today the relevant book is the Constitution-smriti.

The question is how to move the allegiance of people from the other smritis to the Constitution-smriti ? From a practical and from a theoretical basis, we have to show that Constitution-smriti needs all legitimate needs of the people. In this task too, study of how society was organized is helpful.

-Arun Gupta

Ras Siddiqui #110 You post an article by a seasoned Indian foreign service official who writes that ``At the same time, we have given Pakistan the advantage of having nuclear weapons — thereby gifting away our superiority in conventional warfare. ``

I have on previous occasion on chowk argued that morphing the Indo-Pak military balance from conventional weapons to nuclear will go down as one of the Great Blunders of History. And that it reflected not common sense but an overwhelming need to be seen as a Great Power. I was immediately drowned by counter-arguments on how all this was for China etc. I am glad to see that with time even the Indian establishment is recognizing the incredible stupidity of what Indira and later BJP did. Anyway, let us hope all this is history and future generations in India and Pakistan exchange flowers, not bullets or nukes.

sadna #121 You are right - life imprisonment in fact means (at least in Pakistan, and I assume in other South Asian countries too) a certain number of years in prison (20-25 years perhaps as you say). I was a bit quick to criticize the Dawn journalist - although I still think he should have made this thing clear, since most people can be expected to assume that life imprisonment means life imprisonment everywhere (as in US, I am pretty sure).

Further to my post #119, and in my continuing efforts expose to chowkwallahs the past mischief of both governments at the expense of their citizens, I now post this from todays Dawn:

``Separately, Indian officials welcomed two developments in Pakistan on Wednesday. The two developments were the release of an Indian cyclist ordered by Musharraf and reports of a new law to ban military training at Madrasas in Pakistan. ``

How can you jail someone for entering the country without proper documents? Clearly the governments of India and Pakistan have to date been playing games, with poor fishermen, cyclists and such-likes paying the price. Their bilateral relations can go up and down: but why should the average Joe Schmoe from either country be bounced around like a puppet? or imprisoned, with his poor family and dependents left to fend for themselves? If we need to get mad, this is the kind of issue where we should get mad. Not on bs concerning whose religion, economy, politics is good or bad!!

Anyway, let us again give Vajpayee and Musharraf their due for releasing these poor people from their prisons and pray that the governments in South Asia learn to respect the ordinary citizen, rich or poor, and citizen of this country or of that country.

Re Klutz and Zafar

I don`t believe that as a religion, Hinduism has an official name as Islam does. It was, I believe a monikor acquired over the ages. India is probably rooted in the word ``Indus`` as is Hinduism. I belive that it was the arab/muslim invaders who started calling India ``Hindustan``. The natives, I suppose, classified themselves based on language or region, such as Rajput or Punjabi.

One way of looking at it, the geographic place of origin for both the country`s name and the religion is what some of you call the land of the pure. :)

Reply #: 123

Zafar Al-Talib

i must say i never did think of looking up in a dictionary what ``Hindustan`` means.. i just naturally thought it came from the word ``Hindu`` as in the religion. Anyway thanks for enlightening me.

Yea it really made me feel better to know that ``Urdu was at one time referred to as Hindavi``

:)

Reply #: 112

bhartiya musalman

What do u mean Islam is flawed???Look here brother islam is NOT Flawed...if a person follows the Quran and Ahadith then he will get a flawless religion. Every religion has a flaw except Islam.Islam is egalitarian.

``When Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) performed Hajj, on the ninth of Dhul-Hijjah in the plains of Arafaat ,Allah Ta`ala sent Jibraaeel (Alayhis salaam) with the following verse:

Today have I perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you and I am pleased with Islam as your religion. ``

If Allah Has said that islam is perfect then who are u to say it is flawed???I agree that today many ignorant muslims have introduced some new things to islam to their satisfaction...but then one should search on islam him/herself not just believe what the molvis are saying!!

Can anyone comment on Khaled Ahmed`s analysis in the current Friday Times, with regard to `Hisba` ordinance?

re: MacGupta # 130

I agree entirely. Whatever may have been our past guides, today the only guide to our behavior in the `social` domain must be our constitution. And the basics of that constitution must be protected absolutely.

re: PM # 120, sb

Friends,

Gupta has done a marvellous job giving the background for the caste system. On a factual level, I have NO disgareement with him. In fact, I salute him for his efforts to venture into a rather difficult and understudied area.

Anybody with even the slightest degree of impartiality can see that problems similar to or worse than caste have plagued almost EVERY society, especially those with a long history. While we Hindus are at least trying to grapple with this problem head-on, there are many many others who do not even recognize that they face the same challenges. All that is very true.

But I repeatedly emphasize that we tread carefully in discussions of caste for a reason. This reason has little to do with my evaluation of MacGupta`s analysis. If I gave such an impression, apologies to him are in order. For I think he did a masterful job. Neither am I on some massive/extended guilt-trip (self-flagellation, as sb puts it) here, although I must confess, having seen the abuses that go under the name of caste from fairly close quarters, there is certainly some guilt in me. But then EVERY upper caste Hindu like me who has directly or indirectly benefitted from institutionalized discrimination against his/her brothers and sisters should have an iota of guilt lurking in his or her heart! The fact that other societies have historically discriminated (and alas, continue to discriminate) against the `other` does not and should not make my guilt go away.

But that is neither here nor there. My reasons for repeatedly emphasizing that we upper caste Hindus be extra-sensitive (nonpragmatic, sb?) to issues of caste are entirely different (and sb, it is not an issue of backbone either, which, by His grace, is probably much stronger than you mistakenly seem to believe).

Got to run before my mad roommate breaks the door down!....will return to this posting soon...

re. Tahmed:

``most people can be expected to assume that life imprisonment means life imprisonment everywhere (as in US, I am pretty sure).``

hmmm... TAhmed, I thought only, ``life without Parole`` meant you got to spend the rest of you life behind bars in the US.

rgds,

PM

re. Klutz:

``If Allah Has said that islam is perfect then who are u to say it is flawed???``

Maybe Zafar was referring to that belief as the flaw?? Dunno... just asking...

Reply #: 133 Rdesikan

--I don`t believe that as a religion, Hinduism has an official name as Islam does. It was, I believe a monikor acquired over the ages. India is probably rooted in the word ``Indus`` as is Hinduism. I belive that it was the arab/muslim invaders who started calling India ``Hindustan``. The natives, I suppose, classified themselves based on language or region, such as Rajput or Punjabi.--

This is very true... while Islam has since the beginning referred to itself as Islam (or Al-Islam) Hinduism is simply the name given to all of the indigenous religions of India that have common ties. While it is true that today Hinduism has developed (and I don`t mean this in the sense that it wasn`t developed before... simply that it has changed the way it presents itself to the world) into a more or less singular religion (with different thought processes in it), it still remains something large enough and diverse enough to accomodate a plethora of ideas and methods of worship. And it wa, to the best of my knowledge, defined according to the Indus river as far as geographical position and at that by the British (unless anyone has info about the Mughals or someone else calling it that) I`m open to be proved wrong on this point if that be the case :)

Pursuing an American Dream While Following the Koran

Lending institutions are tapping into a growing market of

Islamic Americans who are trying to follow the religion`s

prohibition on paying or receiving interest.

http://partners.nytimes.com/2001/07/05/business/05ISLA.html?todaysheadlines

Zafar#122

Mr. Zafar, I did go through your whole response! Well, I liked it because my views on this issue, as I have expressed several times on Chowk, are also similar. Fundamentalism is appealing especialy because it offers a simplistic remedy, a panacea, to our problems which are essentially complex. It is like an escapist route taken by a beseiged person. I guess people will take a note of the following para:

``The implications are that if we all lived as they did during the Golden Age all our questions would be answered, and that if we were virtuous and happy once we could be again - so long as we all followed the rules expounded by whichever movement happened to be preaching at the time. Fundamentalism purports to provide simplicity when life is not simple. It claims to work so long as people do not ask questions``

Sincerely

To Ekalavya,

I beg to differ with you sir, in this issue. Unless we discuss something, however repugnant it is, how can we move forward? I hope you got my point. Though your intention of apologising to backward castes everytime we write something about it is said with good intentions, It definitely looks silly to me.

To Mcgupta and Jay and to other Indians,

Though we have the largest affirmative action in the world, you know that it is very inefficient and lost the priority now. There are two dangers right now.

1) The creamy layer in the backward castes themselves becoming another forward `class` thereby denying the reservations to the needy

and 2) The diminishing role of Public sector and the increasing importance of Private sector.

Though the former is being tackled now in some states with the initiative of courts ( Kerala again, I believe led the initiative with some other states like Andhra pradesh following suit), there is still a lot of ground to cover.

The more important is the second issue. I have read an article in Hindu recently which talks about the concentration of power in the so called forward castes in Private sector. And with the government role diminishing in future, the employment opportunities for backward classes remain bleak. What is your opinion on this issue? Will we have to enforce reservations in private sector? It again poses a problem with the FDIs and other private sector investments. I feel the process of substantial empowerement of the backward castes had been given a big blow by this Liberalisation and Globalization.

I am concerned as to what ripple effects this phenomenon has on the other aspects of ur lives..

Cheers,

Jntuece99

re. sb #132?

``And the caste system today is not limited to the Hindus - I know Christian families who try to marry only from within the (Hindu) castes that they converted from.``

Yeah... I know only too well. Pakistani Christians (historically Hindu converts, not Muslim) did carry on the glorious traditions and hangups of Caste until not long ago. Many a prospective courtship of my parents` -- and even older siblings` -- generation met a premature death at the hands of demurring caste-conscious elders.

...just thought I`d throw in the bit of trivia (though I`m not so sure it was no trivial matter for those affected).

Re: Klutz 134

My pleasure, boss. Will try to continue to be of service.

Reply #: 112 bhartiya musalman

You call urself a muslim?You are so proud to be an ``INDIAN`` muslim because you can see islam is flawed? God what kind of a muslim are you? Do you have something between ur ears? It`s people like you the ``So called`` muslims who are an embarrassment to our religion. If islam was flawed would it be the ``fastest growing religion in the world today?`` We are lucky to be pakistanis. Atleast here we are taught how lucky we are to be born muslims. Atleast we know that islam is the absolute religion and is perfect!!! In india you are taught that islam is flawed. MAN Thats something...i wish i was an indian!!SHEESH!!!

What kind of a muslim are you anyway?By birth only?????? You remind me of an ``indian Muslim woman`` who on her friends advice went to a ``Mandar`` to pray for her sons health who was dying.She didnt pray to Allah (well maybe she didnt) . but she went to a mandar and prayed to those objects made of stone. Well Yea you believe in Allah..but you dont believe HIS words when HE says that ive perfected your religion for you.

You bore me and so does your reply!Its ignorant ppl like you who dont practice islam who dont research on it and then have the guts to say ``islam is flawed``!

egalatarian_brahmin #93: Some interesting comments. Here is my take on them.

``There is a far-flung misunderstanding amongst Pakistanis, fuelled by the memorable instances of the past - the 1962 Sino-Indian war (where India avowedly lost miserably) and the 1965 Indo-Paki war (about which they complacently jactitate vis-a-vis the exploits of their AirForce), that the woebegone sapless Hindoo Army with its decrepit and flea-bitten infrastructure and equipment can barely match the Pakistanis in ``quality``, notwithstanding its quantitative superiority``

I think this part was correct in the past. From the partition till around the early 70s, there was a conception or misconception amongst the Pakistani leadership that has been stated by you. I don`t the know the reason behind it. I think it was a hangover from historical times, with Muslims ruling India. Pakistani leaderships believed that only the Sikh, Gorkha, and Muslim was fighting material. Even amongst the Muslims, they felt only the Punjabi and Pathan could fight. They felt the Bengalis, Sindhis etc. could not fight either. So it was not limited to Hindus. Perhaps, it was the British who passed these views onto the Pakistani generals.

I don`t think this conception or misconception holds anymore in the Pakistani military. Interestingly, I have met many Indians who are bent upon trying to prove that it does exist. Perhaps they feel the Pakistani military still doubts the Indian soldiers ability to fight.

I have sat in on a lot of tactical planning sessions, which were tailored towards India being the adversary. And I don`t remember a single one in which anyone stated that the Pakistani aircraft would shot down the Indian aircraft, just because the later was being flown by a Hindu. All of them were based on scientific comparison of the abilities of the aircraft, tactics and skill level of the pilots.

The quotes you have taken from RAND do not explain the whole scenario, the author is discussing. The actual theme of the analysis is that while China is stronger than India, the difference isn`t quite as much as the difference between China and other countries, i.e. China is mcuh more powerful than other countries, but just more powerful than India, not much more powerful:

``While China maybe superior to India in power political terms, India is by no means an, ``easy mark.`` (from the same RAND paper).

I doubt you will find too many people who would place India and China in the same category militarily or economically. China, even when it had a lower per capita income than India, was a military superpower. Within 25 years, it will have an economy the size of the US. At that stage it will be a power the size of the US.

There are many factors that go into being a military power:

One is a giant military, which both India and China possess. However China`s is larger than India`s. The other is a giant military budget, which both India and China possess, however China`s (unofficial) military budget is around $30 billion, while India`s is around $14 billion. Third is the types and numbers of conflicts the country has engaged in. China has been willing to take on the US in theatres like Korea. India is still busy fighting Pakistan. I doubt India would have had the power or courage to take down the recent US spy plane, like China did.

Last, but definitely not least, is a military production infrastructure. This is perhaps the most important factor. India does not produce any kind of credible military exportable equipment. China has a complete infrastructure which produces export quality fighters, tanks, guns, etc.

``nuclear power notwithstanding, have a powerful enough military to put the Chinese in their place. The Chinese live in the same complacent dreamworld as you do,``

I don`t think the Indian leadership agrees with you on this one. The Chinese military regularly carries out border incursions into India. Infact they carried out a Kargil like operation, at very high altitudes recently, and build roads into Indian territory recently (please read Brian Cloughley`s analysis). The Indian leadership never responds to such attacks, to the extent that very few Indians even know about them.

The last thing the Chinese leadership can be accused of is complacency. I remember Moeen Qureshi of World Bank stating that the Chinese leadership was the shrewdest he had ever met.

The final factor is economy. In the end, this is the biggest factor. Even though India is now reaching 6% growth rates, its gap with China is actually increasing, due to the even higher growth rates China. Even in the very very best growth rate scenarios for India, the Chinese economy will still be nearly twice the size of the Indian economy.

Based on the above, I don`t think India is a military match for China. And the gap is actually getting bigger and bigger. Within 25 years, China and the US will be two equally placed military and economic superpowers.

If Pakistan`s economy gets back to its traditional 6% growth rates, India will continue to be bracketed in the same group as Pakistan, in the near and distant future. If Pakistan`s economy stays at its current 3.5% average, and India continues going at 6%, India will become an Indian Ocean power, but still not in the same league as China.

As they say, there can only be one king of the jungle. And in Asia, for the distant future, it seems to be China.

jntuece99 # 144

God! I am terrible at the art of exaggeration...

I didnt literally mean that we begin and end each discussion on caste with an apology!! That will be the silliest thing. My call was, and remains, that we make our disapproval of caste sytem amply evident in all our discussions. Gupta clearly did so, and I have apologized to him for unintentionally suggesting that he didn`t. However, the fact is that some Hindus DO use similar arguments as a kind of weak or apologetic `defense` of caste system.

THAT is what I am afraid of. Arguments that edify and clarify when made by someone of subtle understanding and noble intentions, can serve to obfuscate and mislead when appropriated by others who do not meet these high tests. In religious matters this happens all too often. That is why we must to be VERY alert to this possibility if our purpose is not merely to exchange ideas but to actually make a difference in the lives and thinking of `real` (non-Chowk! :)) people. And, it is on this note that I will soon continue with my last posting.

Cheers.

EK

Re: AD1 # 139

I`m not sure exactly which of my outpourings you`re refering to here, but a general response: I try not to criticise anybody`s religious faith because it`s pointless and ill mannered to do so. Perhaps you are confusing religious ``faiths`` with religious ``beliefs``?

Examples of religious faiths include Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, Christianity, Jainism. Each individual`s religious beliefs, however, are a function of their UNDERSTANDING of their particular faith. And unless an individual is perfect, their ability to understand things is not perfect either. I have never, personally, met a perfect person.

In any case, Klutz seems like a very decent bloke, but if you don`t understand something I`ve said, why ask him instead of me? Being imperfect myself, I`m afraid I don`t understand this.

/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * */

Pankaj - I`m glad somebody sees it the way I do.

Sadna - is the article on Hisba on the net? Do you have its address?

Klutz,

{{you criticize the army for throwing the govt out every few years,yet you dont look at the reason behind it.Why does the army do that?Because the 2 major political parties bankrupted Pakistan}}

I`m assuming you are Pakistani. I`m not well versed in Pakistani history. Were the reasons why Ayub & Zia seized power as compelling as that of Musharraf`s coup?

re. Klutz & Zafar

``Well Yea you believe in Allah..but you dont believe HIS words when HE says that ive perfected your religion for you.``

Klutz, does a belief in Allah necessitate a belief in EVERYTHING the Quran says (about what HE supposedly said)?

I dunno, pal... I believe in Allah AND the prophethood, and most of what the Quranic teachings... Now, whether or not I still qualify as a Muslim in your eyes, it should at least be clear that one can believe in the perfection of One but not the Other.

Cheers!

jntuece99 #141:

``1) The creamy layer in the backward castes themselves becoming another forward `class` thereby denying the reservations to the needy``

When reservations were first implemented, they were meant to be there for only 10 years. What many people do not quote is the provision to extend the plan until the `target` is met for these classes - a certain %age among them should be above a certain standard of living.

In AP, when I got of college in the early 90s, 10% of the approx 50% seats reserved for the bc/sc/st classes was for the castes under the BC-B class. At the time, the scores/grades that got these people admn into prof schools were close to those for the forward class students. By right, in a few short years these castes that `made it` should be removed from the resv list and should be making way for the still weaker sections.

But given the politics our leaders are allowed to practise, any such step would need a lot of noise from diff quarters what with the newly disenfranchised bound to oppose the move and the politicians trying not lose any vote bank and so on and so forth.

And that is where any sympathetic person`s efforts should go. From personal experience, I know that any active involvement in a movement or for a cause will impede tendencies for melodrama. (actually melodrama can be put to good use for an end, but I dont see any such use with the breast-beating here - it might just be me but i find it sickening - may be there is a perception that all the people/groups that are or see themselves as the disadvantaged want to be pampered, given the whining by some people here...)

``2) The diminishing role of Public sector and the increasing importance of Private sector.``

One of the first thoughts that came to my mind when I came to know about the rapid cut-down in govt jobs was the jobs for the weaker sections.

There is unbridled nepotism among the weaker and the forward sections alike. Heck, do they not quarrel about who should be the head of ISRO - a Kannada brahmin or a Tamil brahmin?

There used to be a chap called Ashish here who would raise the `legal flag` every now and then. If he is around, he may throw some light on the legal aspect of the whole issue.

By the way YLH, Junoon hamein ghaas nahin dalta, hum use ghaas dalte hain.

Ekalavya #137: ``My reasons for repeatedly emphasizing that we upper caste Hindus be extra-sensitive (nonpragmatic, sb?) to issues of caste are entirely different ``

Some people here talk about the good effects of the institutional changes imposed by law. For changes like these to be successful there has to be some base - in the 20s my grandfather was caught playing on the mud roads of his village by the (brahmin) village school teacher and asked why he wasnt coming to school that year - in those days like now (my awareness being 10yrs stale) the children in the villages would attend school only in the rainy season when the farmers were relatively free, and the school would be run by one school teacher - learning that my grandfather was forbidden to attend school by his father due to the lack of money for the fees (plus there was no tradition of education, it was considered a useless avocation by them), the gentleman asked him to come over the next day anyway, taught him without charging for tuition and gave him some money later on to apply for the high school that was in a town farther away. That high school again had some scholarships by a local `Raja`. My grandfather went on to finish his BA and we had to bear the brunt of this and other stories over and over in my childhood for every little carelessness we indulged in. The teacher meanwhile lost the lands he owned, `fate` not compromising, none of his children could make it through to higher education, and my grandfather would help him out now and then with money and advice to his children. There was no reservation system at the time when my sudra grandfather went to school.

I am perfectly aware that this does not reflect on the entire communities in general, but my intention is to point out that a lot of times people do not take into account the flexibility that the system does allow in reality. And the fortunes and the status of the enitre communities have been changing.

I wonder what you mean by the `upper caste` - in Andhra, the first CM to break the Congress stronghold was N T Rama Rao, who belonged to the Kamma caste. These folks are in general known to be highly enterprising and are one of the richest groups in the state. Constitutionally a `forward caste`, they rose to significance only in the last century or so. Other than that, being farmers from the rural areas of coastal Andhra they should be classified as sudras according to the traditional varna system. The Telugu film industry is dominated by them since its inception. A brahmin would be an outcaste there. The current CM C Naidu is Rama Rao`s son-in-law - Naidus again have a high social status in one part of the state and a not-so-high status in others. Marriages between Kammas and Naidus are permitted in some places, and not in others.

There is the toddy tappers caste. These people are more easy to classsify - they are not only sudras but are also constitutionally a `backward caste`. The hitch is that while they are socially bakward in all parts of the state, in the Telangana region they are one of the richest groups and wield some political power.

The ill-treatment of the `lower castes` is not limited to the `upper castes` - if you know how to define them and who wronged who, let me know. For the sudra families the harijans are untoucahbles - we sudras live in the `mainstream` villages - they are away from the villages. And to me it makes full sense when they convert or are converted. And yet again if you travel to the northern coastal Andhra, you will find harijan land-lords wielding economic power. And these are fertile agricultural lands.

``(and sb, it is not an issue of backbone either, which, by His grace, is probably much stronger than you mistakenly seem to believe)``

Unless it is of Salya`s bone mettle, there might be a limit to all the bending over backwards it can take. That said, you are welcome to continue though, I will sit back and tell you whenever I am offended as a Sudra. jntuece has raised some pertinent points - my suspicion is some people may feel satisfieed enough with the guilt trips to ever reach to those issues...prove me wrong.

Narayan, I agree with you that a person at the recieving end of the stick would know more about the ill-effects of the system than a brahmin Sankaracharya ever could. All this is not an attempt to discredit that idea. Just a frustrated appeal for us to look at our own through our own eyes. And practically approach the issues if we have the guts to...

Hope the US residents had a good fourth of July.

Dear Mr. Aschettino,

This has been a pleasure to read, Thank you for writing it and hope to see you on Chowk more often…Chowk is a place where you can find a pearl after your life’s shell goes through and gathers the right proportion of low earthy material…in this process of changing the drop to a pearl…you’ll have a lot of dirt but if you stick around, be a detached observer, you’ll have lines that may help you see things in a way you never did before…Fanatics like Jay and Rsaxena are always going to be part of us, so let them pass their comments as they pass out drunk on the sidewalks, they are social garbage the partition left behind…I’m glad you have come here to present your observation that makes up for the discontinuities…your view is unique and insightful…some people might have something fall into their heads…

jntuece99 re: reply 144:

Now if every intelligent citizen of your country, accepted and kept the focus on the solutions like you did in this particular post, things would be different…everyone would feel more comfortable exposing the wounds in society and maybe we could utilize all resources on hand and find common denominators to the cure.

Mona: re: reply 129

You say, “By giving it a religios conotation you are producing a skewed view”

First, I’m glad to see that you have pathetic spellings…details some other time.

Second, I don’t believe there is a reason to think that every thing is Hindu bashing…The religion is based on certain beliefs that are contrary to a collective social system that many people who study societies and its surrounding think is a necessity to peace. Including Albert Einstein. These contradictions are the caste system, the bhamins etc…You are right when you say every religion has its good points and bad but the crux of the matter is everything boils down to consumer satisfaction…and religion can satisfy completely to the extent of creating a need to serve to one’s own people. Somehow, This definition becomes a little narrow in Hinduism. It is currently narrow in Islam but hat is because the ideal has been steadily abandoned…on the contrary Hinduism is inertly that.

Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari

Reply #: 147 Zafar Al-Talib

why thankyou...that is so kind of u !is it a free service?

Zafar Al-Talib #150

The site is www.thefridaytimes.com
The article I mentioned is in Opinion

``The `bad guy` image and how it gets made``
Khaled Ahmed`s Analysis

The author seems particularly exercised about the Hisba ordinance as if it is inevitable. I am curious if this is the case.

I liked your post #122 and
`` You have to put forward something which meets the needs it does in a better way.``

IMO, Indians cannot say it too often to their own Hindu `radicals` in the same context.

jntuece99, sb, others
Wasn`t the `creamy` layer concept struck down by the Supreme Court many years ago? I think the defination of `creamy layer` had to do with factoring in income and whether previous generations had benefitted from reservations.

The fact is that the Constitution doesnot permit distinguishing between well-off members of historically disadvantaged communities who can make it on their own and those who genuinely need the provisions of affirmative action.

Hence, I believe, it can only be through political action that any change can come about. And I believe it can come in any substantive way from only within the communities which are currently targetted by affirmative action.

When the better-off members of these communities go looking for political support among those who have not yet benefitted from affirmative action(or those suffering its ill effects such as eceonomically weak `forward` castes), these issues will have to be addressed.

Another thing is that every state in India is at a different stage in `success` of affirmative action. Its genuinely makign a difference in one state whereas in another it may be reduced to a racket. Perhaps, reservations ought to be made a wholly state subject, as a first step?

And what we have to prevent is quotas for everyone. There has to be a limit on quotas, or it will be an endless fragmentation. I remember Jayalalitha`s attempt(in a previous term) to increase quotas to a 60% level in Tamil Nadu was struck down by the courts, who set a limit of 50% reservation. I donot know if that limit still stands.

PM #146
PM, I have heard from Catholic friends about how their church rituals are `derived` in part from old pre-conversion Brahmin rituals.

And Protestant friends from a neighbouring state(some are as `fundamentalist` as anyone could wish, but only in their private religious/family lives), would describe how, though their forefathers who converted to Christianity a few generations ago, came from a rung much `lower` in the caste heirarchy than Brahmins, members of their community still make it a point in the present day to have Brahmin cooks and vegetarian food for weddings as a continuation of old customs.

Ekalavya # 144,

I get the drift of what you are saying. I agree with you and I think any Indian who interacts in Chowk would also do so. And thanx for the clarification.

sb #

ya, Reservations were implemented for only 10 years initially. But I guess 10 years is woefully less to eradicate such a deep rooted malaise. So whether it is due to the political expediency or otherwise, the decision to extend them is absolutely fine.

But as you have rightly mentioned, the decision to identify the creamy layer will be politically suicidal to any political party. More so considering that the Parties representing the Backward castes are themselves hijacked by the creamy layers of those castes (ofcourse there are a few genuine ones). They will never allow that.

So I feel this problem can be tackled only by the courts. What had been imposed by some institutional mechanism needs to be corrected by a similar one. I feel the recent initiatives undertaken by some of the State high courts (Kerala, AP etc) are a welcome phenomenon and I hope this problem will be solved soon.

I also feel this is the right time to identify the creamy layer among backward castes since most of this `creamy layer` is now employed in Central/State governments wherein identifying them will be easy.

Cheers,

jntuece99

sb and other Indians #,

But the real danger as I repeat is again the more serious problem of Increasing Globalization and Private sector/ shrinking Public sector/.

I feel the ramifications of the above will be far reaching in our society for sometime to come.

Though infighting exists in all the castes, It is the backward community who will be losing more bcos of their relative under development.

I will give one glaring example out of many. Look at the recent IT wave. What do you think will be the percentage of backward castes in the Software community in India now? Very less isnt it?

The communities which gained the most are the forward castes. They either made it there due to good academic credentials (they always had the edge bcos of better conditioning) or they invested in whatever is required (they are always much well off). And some of those who did not have both managed through their networking with their co -community members.

The backward castes (leaving some like the BC-B castes u mentioned in AP) lost in the race. so much so that ` IT is now called as the Brahmin revenge` (even M N Srinivas acknowledged it in one of his last interviews)

what happened in IT is only a precursor of things to come. Economically and Socially advanced forward castes will continue to gain at the expense of the backward castes. At the same time, the security net they had (Governemnt sector) is lost.

I feel as a society, we should look into this problem more than anything else.

Cheers,

jntuece99

sb #

I admire your attitude towards the issue of dealing with castes. Even i echo the same feelings.

The phenomenon of `forward castes` like kammas, which u are talking about, is very common throughout India and Prof. M N Srinivas gave some wonderful insights into it.

Some correction though..

Brahmins are not exactly a out caste in Telugu films. They have well defined slots allotted to them (Play back singers, lyricists, music directors).. Some reverse castism working eh? ;-)

And the present CM C B Naidu is a Kamma. The other community you are talking about is Kapus and these two communities hate each other (Do you remember the Ranga`s murder and the consequent mayhem in Vijaywada? that was in `87 i guess)

Actually the confusion arises bcos, Kammas have a last name of Chaudary (not to be confused with the North Indian one) or no last name at all in North and Central Kosta region of A P. And the `Kapus` in North and Central A.P. have a surname of Naidu. But in South A.P (esp. in regions of Nellur and Chittur dist) Kammas have a surname of Naidu. Thats how the C.M. of A.P, C B Naidu, who is from Chittor dist is a kamma.

Confused??? ;-) .

Cheers,

jntuece99

IMHO, the best solution for dealing with the caste problem in the present scenario lies in the continued development of the economy (so simple no ;-)).

The government should not remove the safety net anytime soon. Though the public sector jobs are going to diminish in future atleast in the other aspects (like in Higher, Primary and secondary education), the Government should actively support the backward castes and the creamy layer should be identified soon so that the reservations would tickle down to the needy.

If this is accompanied by 7-9% growth of economy for sometime (hopefully a long time), then the demand for jobs will provide the necessay jobs for the educated backward castes also. I dont favour the idea of forcing the Private sectors though there will be an increasing pressure from all sides (already Sociologists like Gail Omvedt and Kancha Iliah are propounding those theories),

bcos that might have a negative impact on development of country.

Cheers,

jntuece99

Sarwari Re.#156

Hi! I am glad that as far as spelling goes, we sail in the same boat.

However, I feel more than consumer satisfaction, religion is more about faith and right now 80% of the one billion people in my country has faith in what we follow.

Even if we see consumer satisfaction, then I as far as am personally concerned, is satisfies as I tend to follow the good point in it. You might argue that it could be because I am from one of the upper castes, but beleive me even the servants in our house, who belong to the lower caste doesn`t complain and even those in Bihar and some other parts of the country who suffer from the upper caste violence do not change their religion to get out of this oppressive system. This DOES NOT MEAN THAT I SUPPORT THE CASTE SYSTEM. I am just trying to make you understand that their is more to Hinduism than just caste. It is a very open religion, which from the yore has been incorporating the belives and practices of the other religion be it Jainism, Budhism, Shikism and even Islam. That is why one find that Bodh Purnima is as revered a day as Shiv Ratri. Hindus also visit various Mazars and Pirs in the country. Why, becasue no where their religion prohibits them to pay homage to any other religion. You might like Kultz say that its becasue the religion is not perfect. But despite what people would like to beleive nor is any other religion. It could have been at the time it was formed, but with the changing times the only thing which remain stagnent is the change. So, pragmatically even religious beleives must. This that applies to the caste system as well, which in todays scenario is totally irrelevant.

Why I make comment on Hindu bashing is that many of the facts are not confirmed before making specific remarks. Just doing minor and meeting few people one does not become an expert. One has to live through or along with it to know what exactilly goes on.

Mona

Ref sigalph235 #: 66

[Not to take away from the main thrust of your argument(which I do generally agree with), Pakistan`s first Chief Justice, A R Cornelius, was a Christian who migrated from what became the Indian Union; the late Dorab Patel, a Parsi, served on the Sindh High Court and later on the Supreme Court. Currently, Justice Rana Bhagwandas serves on the Supreme Court, I believe. Also, the late J N Mondol became the first speaker of the Pakistan Constituent Assembly.]

Your examples are valid, just as any example I may give of ``traitors to the cause of Pakistan`` such as Maulana Abul Kalam Azad or Rafi Ahmad Kidwai or Mohammadaly Currim Chagla who all served with distinction in post-independence India.

But I am pointing out names after one whole generation has passed.

Where is the proof that Muslims will suffer in undivided India, as propounded by Muhammad Ali Jinnah?

Where is proof that Pakistan is a secular republic in reality?

I would like the genius alumni of Rutgers University to respond.

klutz,

Islam is a perfect religion, no doubt.

However, it seems to me that many of the disciples of that religion rarely follow its sacred teachings. Sure, to demonstrate that they are good muslims, they will dutifully pray 5 times a day & fast during Ramzaan.

If the Islamic Republic of Pakistan was really Islamic in its character, you would have no crime, violence, corruption etc in your country. It should be a better society than most in this world (other than the countries in the Ummah, of course).

National leaders (whether civilian or military) are supposed to be role models. Does the acquisition of power dilute their ability to be good muslims? Every Pakistani leader trumpets Islam like its going out of style. However, it seems to me, their character is no better than (dare I say) we imperfect hindus. Lets keep the leadres aside for a moment. What about the Awaam in the land of the pure? No rapes, no robberies, no dacoitery, no secterian killings ? Have you good muslims suudenly become less than perfect?!Must be all the crime statistics are the work of the evil, underhanded RAW.

At least India`s role model leaders (& its awaam)have an excuse. Most of them are hindus. I mean, how imperfect is that?! We pray to stones & penises for Chris sake! How much value to God can we get from such foul pagan practices? So, obviously, you can understand why Indian leaders & citizens are corrupt, genocidal heathens . Also, as you have pointed out, Indian muslims have been corrupted into imperfection by their hindu comrades, who rub shoulders with them. Christ once said ``Forgive them, O Lord, for they know not what they do!`` So I have a feeling that God (in His supreme mercifulness) will forgive us damned hindus. Or maybe Christ(pbuh) isnt as perfect as Mohammed (pbuh).

The way I see it, you muslims are lucky to be born in a family where Islam is taught. Right from a young age you have been taught a perfect religion. That means, Allah is going to judge you by a more stringent standard, than, say ,an idol worshipping pagan like me. Heck our fathers & their father`s fathers have been depraved! How am I expected to know any better?!

If an Indian (esp hindu) leader & Pakistani leader die at the same time, Allah is going to give that bania a break. But I would`nt want to be in the shoes of the NS & BB types who DARE to knock at the gates of heaven. What face is the average citizen of the LAND OF THE PURE going to show his Maker?! Seems to me his/her conduct is no better than the average citizen in the LAND OF THE IMPURE.

Moral of the story:

Dear muslim brothers & sisters,

You have been BLESSED with the knowlege of a perfect religion. So your ``final exam`` is going to be a heck of a lot stricter than the rest of us who practice imperfect religions. You better start shaping up! So far, it seems to the world, you are`nt faring any better than those pagans who have been cursed to follow the path of darkness.

Cheers

Dear sb,

Please don`t sit back and speak up only when you feel offended. IMHO, that will defeat the entire purpose of any conversation. I hope you will do what you have been doing very well: put forward your viewpoints cogently and effectively.

sb, I have lived in AP for over two years and have visited the Telengana region a number of times. Hence I am reasonably familiar with their caste politics. I am also aware that caste as a construct is far more ill-defined, multi-layered, and dynamic -- a function of time and place -- than it appears from outside. The interaction of state efforts to bring about positive change (for example, through reservations), political expediency, and strategic efforts by various subgroups within castes at various levels and in various places constantly creates a maddeningly complex reality - to which you have rightly drawn attention.

None of this escapes me when I promote, in whatever little capacity I can, sensitivity across caste lines or religious lines. My efforts, again tiny as they may be, are NOT based on ignorance..nor on simplistic every-thing-is-hunky-dory world-views. I know the difficulties, and at the risk of sounding pretentious, I also know many of the arguments back and forth. I CHOOSE to focus on the positive, on mutual understanding, and yes, even that most important and illusive thing of all - love - because I belive that is the only way for us all to move forward as human beings. And since my purpose is to actually DO things, to create ANEW from the debris of the old, a key element of my own life plan is respect. Respect for human beings who may carry categorical labels different from me. More important, respect for those who can teach me things owing to their own unique life experiences (and you surely fall in the latter group).

sb, this respect may seem like excessive `bending over backwards` but this is a moral and strategic choice I have made after a great deal of soul-searching and pondering over worthwhile life goals. That is why if you find anything I write offensive, feel free to educate me...you will find in me a most willing learner. I say that sincerely.

Regards.

EK

PS:

Some of your comments I fully agree with:

``a lot of times people do not take into account the flexibility that the system does allow in reality. And the fortunes and the status of the enitre communities have been changing.``

`` some people may feel satisfieed enough with the guilt trips to ever reach to those issues``

``practically approach the issues if we have the guts to...``

``given the politics our leaders are allowed to practise, any such step would need a lot of noise from diff quarters what with the newly disenfranchised bound to oppose the move and the politicians trying not lose any vote bank and so on and so forth.``

Aeisha # 156

``This definition becomes a little narrow in Hinduism. It is currently narrow in Islam but hat is because the ideal has been steadily abandoned…on the contrary Hinduism is inertly that.``

If Islam regains its ideal of universal brotherhood (not just Islamic brotherhood, which I am sure you would agree must only be a distortion) and Hinduism overcomes its genuine problems of caste etc, we would be be together, don`t you think?

Hard/impossible? may be..but worth trying, aeisha.

Senor Aschettino

Yo tengo algunas preguntas. Quisiera hacer una pregunta acerca de Pakistan ye India.Me siempre interesa si tu conocimiento de Paksitan be Pakistano adquirido.

You are entitled to your beliefs. but if you start preaching virtues better be right about what you say. Now can you pass my little test.

This was a good report Mr. Alam, I hope Radha finds success in her endeavors. India should surely concentrate on this heinous practice of segregating.

For a nation progressing well, it seems to be ignoring this core problem for a long time now, hope someone, somewhere, can actually make a change regarding this matter.

Regards

Kiran

sarwari #156 ``This definition becomes a little narrow in Hinduism. It is currently narrow in Islam but hat is because the ideal has been steadily abandoned…on the contrary Hinduism is inertly that.``

Dear Ms. Sarwari, Your views on Islam vs. Hinduism are so off-balance, they remind me of the leaning tower of Pisa (except that the tower of Pisa has foundations, your views as stated in this post have none). All religions have have at their core man`s search for something more profound to existence than it being merely ``one damn thing after another`` as some Englishman put it. To say that one religion is more narrowly conceived than another is an arbitrary comparison - you cannot measure concepts in meters and centimeters (or feet and inches), and there is a basic beauty and commonolity in concepts in the essence of all religions. Man has made a mess in all religions by adding self-serving things to it: there is enough evil and mischief done in the name of religion in Islam as there is in Hinduism or any other religion. This evil is the creation of man, and rest assured that people are not very different across the world.

Thank you. I hope that you will try to get your balance right in these matters and stop this religious chauvinism.

Having largely lived in urban India (sometimes in not so big cities) I gotta admit I never found out what the ``caste`` of my clasmates was. And neither did anyone else as far as I can remember. Of course it would have been different had I been born a dalit, sensitized to the category and the tales of victimhood, past and present etc.

Two principles appear to emerge from the discussions on this board

1.The ``lower`` one`s caste is, the higher the caste consciousness (not unlike being a black in the USA).

2.People who discriminate the most are people who are just one or few steps above these ``low`` castes.

3.The appeal of belonging to a victimized category explains the activities of certain dalit leaders and educated people.

The whole concept of a backward caste (this is different from scheduled caste/tribe) is a political invention post independence. In certain states virtually everyone is backward according to the definition (except maybe 20% of the population).

However go to a village the story is very different. Caste as a category is important and rightly so. It gives a lot of useful info (not that different from religion or language or socio economic status) to the expert from the region.

There are hundreds (thousands?) of castes in India. A person from Haryana will have no idea about caste in Tamil Nadu. and vice versa; except in the foggiest terms. A caste is essentially a subculture with its own combination of language, religious and cultural practices, occupational history and so on. The brahmin/vaisya/kshatriya/sudra/outcastes distinctions is a crude overlay which is not very informative.

I am going to be a contrarian and say that India would be incredibly dull were it not for this diversity. The last thing India wants is a boring monoculture. In that sense the caste system is something to admire, a system that has evolved over millenia and will CONTINUE to do so. It makes perfect sense to marry within ones caste (or religion, race, or language group) all other things being equal. It occurs with blinding regularity all over the world.

One can like the fact that India has so many castes and also simultaneously strongly disapprove of DISCRIMINATION (which has been outlawed since when?) based on caste which mostly occurs in rural areas, particularly in the bihar-UP belt.

What might be interesting would be study if religious conversion helps people from scheduled castes. My hunch is that religious conversion to christianity helped a great deal as the missionaries also are/were influential in establishing modern educational institutions. I suspect conversion of these folks to islam did precious little for exactly the opposite reason. Bottom line is that basic nurtition and opportunities for education are critical variables in moving up the socioeconomic ladder. No matter what caste you belong to.

I am quite sure that *most * well to do Muslims in India or Pakistan are *very * unlikely to have scheduled caste origins. Ponder on this for a while. Caste tends to survive religious conversions, even across many generations. Why? Not because of some rigid belief systems but because of cultural practices and values that survive such conversions.

bottomline: there is nothing wrong with caste as such or retaining one`s caste identity, provided one recognizes modern laws and is sensitive to past follies.

Shankar #151 ``Were the reasons why Ayub & Zia seized power as compelling as that of Musharraf`s coup?``

Same compelling reasons as that of a rapist (if polite company on chowk will pardon the expression). And as with all rapees (my contribution to the English language, thank you), if one is getting raped one might as well relax and enjoy it (again, gentle people like ali1 and urstruly and RSaxena to please pardon the crude imagery).

Dear Writer:

An interesting piece. I am not finished reading your article yet but had to put the following bhajjan? somewhere. Hope that won`t cause any disruption.

Kind Wishes.

---------

sarwari # 156

..lady, your attitude really impresses me...since i`ve been on chowk- its been relentless

``First, I’m glad to see that you have pathetic spellings…details some other time.``

...you seem to be under the impression that your use of language is very literary...i know mediocrity often comes with arrogance as a package deal...such confidence is of course required to heap on us that literal monstrosity which was your last article...

``Chowk is a place where you can find a pearl after your life’s shell goes through and gathers the right proportion of low earthy material…in this process of changing the drop to a pearl…``

...i also see you have illusions about being a poet..please spare us such pretentious prose..also seen in the sub-sophomoric verse you have published earlier here, with a key so helpfully provided later...thankfully you dont have any such delusions about History (starting with a cap- as your friend ylh always does)

``Including Albert Einstein.``

...here`s a published quote from Einstein on Hinduism:

``When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe, everything else seems so superfluous.``

...on India:

``We are indebted to India for all scientific progress because it is they who taught us how to calculate; without which no progress in science could have been achieved.``

..anNy described you well on the other board :``..stuck up brats like sarwari..``

..most of us are here to exchange ideas, debate...nobody is too conscious of spelling or language..

..btw if you want, i can point out a language/ spelling error in almost every sentence of your this post...

Reply #: 150

Zafar Al-Talib

sorry man... my references were meant to be to bharaitya mussalman (Imran Zulfiqar); not you.

To both Muslims and Hindu:

The adherents of Islam and Hinduism are both humans, both flawed and struggling within themselves to live up to the their understanding of the teaching of their faith. However; this does not mean that significant difference does not exist between these teaching: While Islam holds brotherhood as an ideal, Hinduism hold that an inate difference existes among persons and it`s given that due to this difference some in society are born to serve others. A very different concept of social mobility exists within Islam. No one is going to be converted by anyone on Chowk, but honesty and the rules of conversation suggest that we need to acknowledge our differences to enable us to acknowledge our similarities.

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Reply #: 167

bhartiya musalman

Why dont you transport urself back to the 8th Century Deserts of Arabia (as u said) and then we`ll see how u take Quranic verses.

I didnt say what Quran said should be taken literally only. As u said it should be taken symbolically and spiritually as well as literally. Why do u think Quran is there??? Just to put it in our house as a decoration piece and from time to time we`ll take it out so that we can have this spiritual feeling around us. Quran is there so that we can act upon it.

Ahh.. maybe i havent done that much in-depth study of other religions.Although Mr bhartiya musalman i know enough about other religions to know that islam is flawless. The more i know about what other religion believes the stronger my faith gets.And anyway i dont need an in-depth study of other religions to know what islam is!

I know that i dont need no priest to ask for God`s forgiveness on my behalf!I also know that i dont need no idols to concentrate.I have enough between my ears to know that those man-made idols are just that.Man-Made! How can something which you created yourself has the power to shape your lives.I also know that i dont need to worship fire,or wind,or water. Everything is between me and my Allah.I will ask Him for help and i will ask Him for forgiveness.

I know its disrespectful to criticize other religions and their beliefs but im only doing it in the light of islam to prove a point.When i see deluded ppl like you i feel taht it is my right to speak up!

Tell me something have u ever even gone through the Quran or are u just repeating ur indian beliefs!I dont have any bias towards india Mr imran,i wouldnt care less whether ure a paki,an american or of any other nationality! I have my reasons for not liking indian govt but thats that.i have nothing against india or indians.

Close minded indeed!Your assumption is very inaccurate but then again why should i explain myself to u...u are no one.Its ppl like you (the so-called open-minded ppl) who on one hand drink wine and on the other dont eat pork just coz its HARAAM, degrade islam.i think im better off being a Paki rogue rather than sit on my behind and do nothing other than look for flaws!Tell me something what led u to believe that islam is flawed and what exactly is that flaw.

Forget about this india/paki crap.I dont wnat to hear about my supposedly biases towards india or about what a faithful indian u are.Your patriotism brings tears to my eyes.

Reply #: 152

AD1

If one believes in Allah then he should also believe in HIS words. Quran is Allah`s words. there is nothing supposedly said in it. Allah said that HE will protect HIS book. No one can change HIS words even if one trys to do so.

It doesnt matter if u qualify as a muslim in my eyes. im a nobody.

``it should at least be clear that one can believe in the perfection of One but not the Other.``

If u meant that U believe Allah is perfect but not HIS book then i think you are a little misguided (no offence intended).... but Quran is perfect. No one can change it...ppl can only interpret it differently to their satisfaction.or should i say misinterpret it!

Reply #: 164

egalitarian_brahmin

I never said that pakistan is a secular state. I infact objected on that point. as u said pakistan is known as an ``islamic republic`` and so by definition Pakistan is not a secular state.Period!

What do u think our religion is?Do u think we muslims should worship one God and acknowledge the presence of another! Our main belief is that there is ONE GOD and Only HE should be worshiped.And yes Islam is perfect...it is only some ignorant ppl who make it seem imperfect.!

But anyway Allah is Most Forgiving.Im just here to make a point.

klutz

Reply #: 151

shankar

I cant say that the reasons why zia and ayub seized power were as compelling as that of musharrafs ..maybe they were maybe they werent. If u look at it from an islamic point of view then Zia`s reason for seizing power was very compelling. Why?Because Bhutto was westernizing Pakistan. We are called the ``islamic republic of pakistan`` yet bhutto was more influenced by western cultures. Ayub Khan`s reason for seizing power was that our govt and economy were very unstable. After every year there was a new person in power. And no one was really doing anything for Pakistan. So i think everyones reason for coming into power is compelling in its own way.

Reply #: 169

shankar

There are not many muslims left who truely follow Islamic teachings the way Allah and our prophet wanted us to. Infact im ashamed to say that i am one of those muslims. You are rite that people just pray and fast to show what good muslims they are and yet they dont know about islam and how one should lead his/her life the islamic way.

Who said Pakistan is islamic in its character? Pakistan is just called an islamic republic.Its just a name thats all. Yes Majority of the people who live In pakistan are muslims but maybe only 2% of these people truely follow islam.And i must say our leaders (our role models) are certainly not islamic. In this world only one country is really following the shariah (islamic laws) and that is Afghanistan. Not even Saudi Arabia is following the Shariah.

That is why our country is full of corruption and all kind of crimes.Im afraid there are not many good muslims left.

``Heck our fathers & their father`s fathers have been depraved! How am I expected to know any better?!``

That is no excuse!If you know islam is perfect then why are you still a hindu? Just because u were born in a hindu family doesnot mean taht u cannot convert to any other religion.!Ahh...social pressures..Im not sure that people other than muslims are going to be forgiven Allah Knows best.

Yes i agree with you that those who have more knowledge are going to be judged strictly than those who have lesser knowledge...but believe me everyone will have their piece of cake...it doesnt matter if it be more strict or not.

Btw im not a guy...im a gurl..but my sex isnt important.

i just wanted to let everyone know as most of u think im a guy.

bharitya musulman #167 or something: ``Perhaps you are a descendent of low caste converts to Islam?``

Excuse me but by writing the above sentence you have inadvertantly confirmed that you look down upon people of ``low caste``. You flaunt your Islam around while writing post after post spitting on us Pakis. Is this your Islam then? Where you think you are insulting someone by calling him ``low caste``.

It does not sadden me that a bhartiya musalman can be so

delusional. It is not that he accuses us of being `arabicized` for any

sane person who makes a trip to Pakistan will clearly make it very

clear that Pakistan is far from an Arabicized state. It is not that he

tells me that Pakistan is a failed state just because Pakistan isnt

making ICBMs instead of feeding its poor (besides any sane person

knows that Pakistan doesnot have the kind of abject poverty that

Calcutta for example has), it is not that he tells us that Pakistan is

state without History because even if we didnot (though we have a

rich history) I am a Pakistani and millions of other citizens of

Pakistan are Pakistani because they were born as such and will

remain as such.

It is his (il)logic, his insanity, his ignorance coupled with arrogance,

his confusion, and his out and out bigotry that bothers me. For the

sake of the few Indian friends I have who are truly decent people, I

hope and pray India has more to offer than these fools. For 50

years this Indian still considers himself a `member of the

brotherhood of Islam` and accuses Jinnah `of being responsible of

making Indian Muslims impoverished.`

1) For your information all leaders of Pakistan from Jinnah to

Musharaff have repeatedly said that Indian Muslims are Indians and

Indians only.

2)Pakistan`s distinct culture has never been Arab and that is an

undeniable fact.

3)Fundamentalists, and Khilafatists were opposed to the creation of

Pakistan. Pakistan was created by moderate Muslims who were

previously in the Congress Party.

4) Fundamentalist Parties like Ahrar, Jamaat e Islami, Jamiat e

Ulema Hind were either in alliance with the Congress or Tooth and

nail opposed to the creation of Pakistan.

5) Indian Muslims tend to be much more fanatical and Arabicized

that Pakistani Muslims.

Example I am yet to find an International Pakistani Student Muslim

female who wears the Hijab and Indian one who doesnt!

6) IT WOULD HELP IF PEOPLE LIKE BHARTIYA MUSLIM DIDNOT

MAKE THESE SWEEPING BIGOTED STATEMENTS WITHOUT

EVEN GOING TO PAKISTAN.

7) I AM A PAKISTANI FIRST SECOND AND LAST, and if

renouncing the brotherhood of Islam means being rid of the notion

of being a `bhai` to a confused fundamentalist fanatic like

yourself.... well I renounce ... I renounce .... I renounce!

8) Yasser Latif Hamdani lives in Gamma Sigma Fraternity on 19

Union Street New Brunswick NJ 08901... take Turn Pike from

Holland Tunnel... and take the New Brunswick exit which 8 or 9 ...

then ask for College Ave, Union street is right behind college ave...

I dont scare easily by threats of confused immature cowards!

9) Pakistan is here, and here to stay, and Pakistan will exist to

eternity. It might not be perfect, but you wont find the conditions of

living in Pakistan as bad as Calcutta for example... One day

Inshallah we will make Pakistan a Beacon of light for the world.

10) LONG LIVE PAKISTAN!

Sarwari,

It is sad when people like Bhartiya Musalman no doubt motivated by personal indignation make it a public thing.

Aisha how long are your rejected Indian Muslim suitors going to take it out on Pakistan?

Long Live Pakistan!

(Ref Bhartiya`s post to Sarwari on YLH`s board)

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klutz #181 ``pakistan is known as an ``islamic republic`` ``

There is no mention of islamic republics (or islamic kingships) in the Quran. The concept of an ``islamic republic`` is a patently unIslamic piece of nonsense that is propogated by those who hope to gain a position of power in Pakistan through devious means. I am amazed at how easily people accept such rubbish. I dont think you are a klutz, so please think for yourself on these matters. Just because someone adds the adjective ``islamic`` to anything does not mean it is in fact islamic. Often it is the most unislamic of things, including this concept of an islamic republic.

re: Aeisha # 190

Original form of Hinduism??!

This is news to me :)

Does anybody know what the ORIGINAL form of Hinduism was? Or, even what the ORIGINS of Hinduism were?

Are Hindus at all interested in finding ansers to such questions?

studebaker/klutz,

{{{Muslims have been provided ,what you may loosely term a vetoe power like ptrivilged few super poqwers or membership of the frequent flyers club with extra benefits & rights to executive lounge (jannah)}}}

If I understand you correctly, muslims are ``blessed``, ``privileged`` humans eh? compared to people of other religions? I`m reeeally puzzled why you favourite sons & daughters of God criticise brahmins so much when they feel they are they are a special previliged ``caste``!

{{{Islam is a perfect religion}}}

Obviously, studebaker & you didnt pick out the sarcasm in my post. Lets look at your statement again. What youre NOT saying speaks louder than what youre saying. When a person says MY religion is perfect; he/she is also saying YOUR religion is ``less than perfect``; so my religion is better than your religion. I think thats downright arrogant & bigoted. Like MY way of praying to God is better than YOUR way of praying to God.

Thats why I`m disgusted & disillusioned with EVERY religion. Every religion in its innermost core philosophy says the same thing. However, we human beings have twisted religion into an instrument of hatred & division. Why?! Because MY way of praying to God is better than YOUR way---We are special, we are the chosen people, our way guarantees a special visa to heaven. BULLSHIT!! The irony is that those who thump the Bible, Geeta or Koran on their chest the loudest are the ones who insult religion the most.

Thats the problem with fundamentalists in every religion. They feel that religion should never be revised. Anybody who opposes the dominant thinking is ``excommunicated``. Well, Martin Luther was ``excommunicated``---it means, according to the Vatican, his soul will burn in hell in everlasting damnation, because he DARED oppose the Church of Rome. Yeah, right!! Well let me tell you what fundamentalist Christians say--after you die your soul is given a simple choice---accept Christ as your true son of God or be damned to hell. BTW, they think THEIR visa to heaven is more privileged than a muslim`s visa---so stand at the back of the line, good muslim folks. Well, at least you wont be standing as far back as us ``depraved idol worshipping pagans`` (pl note the sarcasm here).

So please spare me that ``holier than thou`` crap. ``Perfect`` as your religion is, muslim countries have the same incidence of sins as Western countries. There is good & bad in EVERY religion. Thats why I`m irreverent to EVERY religion, including (& especially) mine. I`ll leave my judgement in the capable hands of God; so dont bother praying for my soul. O well, maybe we should just agree to disagree.

So, studebaker, I`m VERY happy for you that you have a jannah. Heck, your religion is PERFECT for YOU; but not for ME ( & perhaps 3 quarters of a billion hindus or a billion Chinese).

PLEASE dont be offended by this. If God put me in your jannah, I would be banging the doors to get out in less than a day---forget about an eternity!! Look at it from my point of view--I have to spend an eternity with Mullah Omer (or even worse, Farangi_Kush types)--yikes!!! The one saving grace that I thought was good was 72 houris. Well, my friend, you even ruined that for me by saying you are not allowed to lust after them! How many cold showers is a guy allowed to have in the jannah?

Let me tell you, hell looks a lot better than your jannah. Granted its a little hot there, but I can deal with it, I lived in the tropics for a couple of decades. Besides, my parents, family, relatives, people I like are all going to be there. Think of the ``all you can eat`` Chinese food you have there. I can go on & on....

Moral of the story

My pious brothers & sisters Of Islam. Your religion is perfect ONLY for muslims---not necessarily so for non muslims. Of course, Hinduism is PERFECT for me & not you.

PROSTITUTION ROW DIVIDES FROM OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT

New Delhi, July 6:

Women’s organisations are split on legalisation of prostitution — a demand voiced by both human rights groups and the health ministry. A number of women’s organisations across the country today declared that they will launch a movement against the demand.

“Legalisation will only help brothel owners, procurers and traffic owners,” said Sheila Jefferys, who has been working among prostitutes in Australia.

The state of Victoria legalised prostitution in the eighties. “The result was that each week, 60,000 men in the state spent $7 million on prostitution with the legalised industry turning over more than $360 million a year and drawing on some 4,500 prostituted women and girls,” informed Jefferys, who has joined women’s organisations like Joint Women’s Programme, Sanlaap, Nishant and Prerna to campaign against the legalisation.

Opposed to these organisations are groups like Durbar Mahila Samannay Samiti, a West Bengal-based organisation that has taken the lead in advocating legalisation of prostitution. Human rights groups claim that granting legal status to the sex industry would give its workers some sort of respect that they are denied now.

Legalisation means prostitutes will have to register themselves as sex workers in the government’s official record after which they will be given licenses. The government will conduct regular health and medical checkups to ensure they are not affected by AIDS.

“Licenses do not mean an end to violence in prostitution,” says Priti Patkar from Prerna, a Mumbai-based organisation working in brothels. She argued that licensing would only lead to stigmatising women — a stigma that will be carried over to their children. A prostitute, once licensed, will go down in the records forever as a prostitute, Patkar added.

“Women in prostitution do not want their children to continue in the trade. Even when the trade is not legal, they find it difficult to get their children admitted in schools. Once they are officially stamped with the label of prostitutes, it will stick not only to them but also to their children,” says Jyotsna Chatterjee of Joint Women’s Programme.

As for medical checkups, Chatterjee says, prostitutes will be segregated and looked upon as a threat to public health.

The pro-legalisation lobby, on the other hand, says that legalisation also involves decriminalisation of sex workers and giving them the status of industry will bring them under the purview of labour laws.

The anti-legalisation lobby sees the move only as a medium for spurring trafficking, which has mounted to huge proportions. It dismisses the argument that women in India voluntarily enter prostitution.

“A strand of feminist opinion is saying that prostitution is a matter of choice for women and should be treated as such. But this is completely misleading,” says Jean D’Cunha, a board member of the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women, Asia Pacific.

AAmir

((``klutz Btw im not a guy...im a gurl..but my sex isnt important.i just wanted to let everyone know as most of u think im a guy``

``Aapa,chote behen,behna,didi,aapne naam hi kuch aisa rakha hai ke feminity se bahut door aur if by klutz you mean ungraceful,awkward,gawky,uncouth, then it fits men!!))

AAmir bhaijaan aap kahan reh rahae hain? humn aap ko bataae hain. Theres nothing as feminine as acting dizzy then breaking a cupla flower pots tumbling all over the place acting all delicate and gurlygurly that gets all the males in the vicinity falling all over you. Sarae pagal hojatae hain, hero kae bachae

Aeisha #190

Hi again!

Aeisha, when you talk about the reformist movement, I request you to check the facts that these movements were about the restoration of the past glory of Hinduism; i.e, to do away with the wrongs adopted over the period of time.

Basically, if you see, Hinduism is not about `Murti-Puja`. More stress is laid on meditation, which could be done without sitting in front of any idol.

As for Ranveer Sena killing the Maoist. What do you think, the Maoist keep mum about it. They go right back and do the same thing.

My servant not knowing of equality is other thing, I would like to point out. Their children go to school and study the same things we did although in Hindi medium and watch the Doordarshan along with their families. That`s the place where we learnt about equality. This is just one of the things. No matter what you would like to belive, they are not nincompoopes as you are making them out to be.

As I said in my earlier post, religion is all about faith. If a person could relate with it, it`s okay.

Mona

Bhariya Muslim #167

Your remark related to a muslim convert from lower caste is most uncalled for.

Mona

Klutz,

Beauty lies in imperfection. What would earth be like if it were to be a plain perfect sphere without any mountains, deserts, oceans to boast of? What would your life be, if it were devoid of sorrow and happiness and other emotions? You might be revered but how many would like to be like you?

Mona

IMPORTANCE OF PAKISTAN,

Godot,

On one of the threads you ask the question, can the dissolution of pakistan solve all the poblems. I am one of those believers that the cause of problems is ideas, to give a hypothetical example, all of the poverty in say pakistan will be solved if the US decides to spend a small fraction of its defence spending on poverty elimination in pakistan. They wont do it simply because the idea that it should be done is not accepted. As I have posted several times, chowk is a market place of ideas, so for the time being, let us leave the images of the poor. Let us talk of ideas, what idea pakistan stand for.

TNT is a divisive force, and despite all the utterences of YLH, it is a geinie out. The blasphemy laws of pakistan, kashmir problem, support for the chehnians and the latest threat from pakistan based LET on indian sports men are all manifestations of TNT.

Pakistan today stand as an intersection of the progressive forces in south asia and the ideology of &th century. A court in pakistan has said `riba` has to go, the same court that up holds blasphemy laws, the supreme sheria court.

Pakistan is the manifestation of a certain idea, that is like a mill stone on the future of south asia. Dissolution of pakistan will remove that institutional structure that protects the LET, blasphemy laws, honour killing, the k for kafir education. As prof hoodboy posted in an article, if identifying e hindu with in five years of schooling is a curriculum requirement, the institution that supports the idea should be dissolved.

In conclusion, will the dissolution of pakistan remove poverty, yes, it will lead to proliferation of ideas and institutions that remove poverty at the cost of jihadic heavens. It will remove poverty faster.

regards

jay.

YLH #188 ``Aisha how long are your rejected Indian Muslim suitors going to take it out on Pakistan?``

Ha! Ha! Good one.

Slink

(a more relevant question for you to be asking might be what should india do with its own extremist fanatics? )

Do? Accept tau karain pehlae behen, doing shooing baad mae.

Vereesh, aap kaunsee grade mae hain bhaijaan? Aur kuch ziada high nahin hoae wae aajkal?

Just curious to know:

Are Islamic laws perfect too?
Are legal/ethical recommendations of Islamic scholars in Hadiths of antiquity perfect too?
Are legal/ethical recommendations by present-day Islamic scholars perfect too?

Mr.shankar

``...Look at it from my point of view--I have to spend an eternity with Mullah Omer...``

not that its my place to say so, but i hardly think that obnoxious man will get anywhere close to jannat. He`s all but ruined the lives of hundreds of young and old afghani men and women. (i say this in reference to visits to refugee camps in the outskirts and interaction with young men who have not only recently gotten back from afghanistan after fighting have but also met that moron)

i know i know u were kidding but just thought id clear that bit up..and besides if he gets there I will leave as a sign of protest.

klutz#135:

``Every religion has a flaw except Islam``

Oh really? Have you studied every religion except Islam? Then how do you know? Why then is the majority of the world not Muslim? If it is the only ``flawless religion`` surely then all other imperfect faiths will crumble in its face? But it doesnt seem like those damn Christians/Jews/Buddhists/Hindus/Sikhs agree with you.

klutz#142;

``You remind me of an ``indian Muslim woman`` who on her friends advice went to a ``Mandar`` to pray for her sons health who was dying.She didnt pray to Allah (well maybe she didnt) . but she went to a mandar and prayed to those objects made of stone``

Dont you guys pray to a black stone in the Kaaba five times a day? Please explain, klutz. Flawless indeed!

tahmed321#165;

Thanks for that post. It was brilliant. With people like you, my anger at dumb Paki racists is deflated. Just like India has its idiots, so does your country, and I shall resist the temptation to insult a whole nation based on the vomiting of some individuals.

God bless you.

hobbyty;

What a great social mobility and equality Islam offers. Muslim brotherhood, non Muslims = infidels and lesser humans. Non muslim is lesser than a Muslim. Such great brotherhood your religion offers.

Hindus are demolishing the caste system themselves. Look in your own backyard, spare your self righteousness for someone else.

Shankar#193;

``I`m reeeally puzzled why you favourite sons & daughters of God criticise brahmins so much when they feel they are they are a special previliged ``caste``!``

Ha Ha! I have been wondering about that myself. Just realise these people are not true Muslims like tahmed321 who are humble and respectful as their religion instructs. These people just have a fundamental hatred of and inability to accept the existence of Hindus.

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Shankar:

You write very well. In fact, I think you should be producing articles on Chowk - just for knowledge sake! It`s always a great pleasure to read your well thought-out perspectives.

I have recently read Scott Peck and I am reading a few more of his penetrating case studies just for a change of setting :) Being a poetry person; prose has been a little hard on my well-being :) Laiken Phir Bhee Koshish Kur Rahee Hoon Keh Case Studies Ko Achi Tarah Sae PurH Loon.

I quickly glanced through your post, and something that stood out, was the emphasis on ``Perfect.`` I would replace that with ``Complete.`` I think that`s what the basic intent was. I can be corrected if it was otherwise, but I doubt it. There are some verses on that as well. I cannot think of them at the moment. Also, I do not believe in quoting Holy Verses on these boards where people speak all kinds of bolian.

Take Care.

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#190 AeishA

``If i say my parents are smarter than yours ,it doesnt mean ,you

disown your parents .``

But they aren`t! QED.

Reply #: 195

binifer

Haha now thats what i call the height of femininity!

Reply #: 189

AAmir

Chootay bhai,Bhaijaan,aap kis duniya mai rehtay hain.Kia larkian ungraceful,careless,awkward,gawky, etc nahi ho sakteen???aik tau in gender biases say mai tang aa gai hoon :P .. kia ap larkon nay ``Klutz`` ko copyright keeya hua hai??? patent laga hua hai kia? ab larkian aisay names use bhi nahi kar sakteen.are you one of those ppl who believe that pink is for gurls and blue is for guys?..how boring.

Reply #: 186

tahmed321

Yes i do know that``The concept of an ``islamic republic`` is a patently unIslamic piece of nonsense that is propogated by those who hope to gain a position of power in Pakistan through devious means.`` and i agree with u whole-heartedly.I have never really accepted this ``rubbish`` as u call it.. because i do know how much islamic our govt is and our state is!Still it is called an islamic republic which means it can certainly not be called a secular state.

Reply #: 185

tahmed321

Hehe i couldnt agree with u more.

Reply #: 203

Siraj

``Why then is the majority of the world not Muslim?``

Im afraid i cannot answer that...time will tell.But can u answer me why is it that islam is the fastest growing religion today?I havent studied on every religion...but i have enough knowledge on many of the religions practiced today.maybe i was wrong to state that ``Every religion has a flaw except Islam`` what i meant was that islam has no flaw.

No sir we donot pray to that ``black stone``.. u are very wrong there.

anyway i know that u respect ur religion as i respect mine and that we both will go on and on about ur belief and my belief....and in the end we will always disagree...so as ive said to many others lets not argue. Thankyou.

Reply #: 199

egalitarian_brahmin

ahh...so uve been to my dorm..have u??How do u know i have my parents picture in my room?..

``or reasoning along the lines of ``He is too Great to be symbolized``



haha thats exactly what i was going to do.I practically wrote a whole debate on it:P

``So what say you we agree to disagree on this one?``

Yes lets do that :)

``Their beliefs might be different, but need you (the Muslims) incessantly assert that yours is the ONE and ONLY correct belief system?``

egalitarian_brahmin i think we are back to point #1 here. Yes i do believe that OUR belief system is The One and only correct system.Do u think id sstill be a muslim if i thought otherwise?I know islam is the correct system and nothing will change my mind.believe me i could go on and on about this whole subject but nothings going to change ur mind as well and we`ll just keep on argueing till we are both blue in the face.so let us not argue about it anymore.

Reply #: 198

monasehgal

Yes mona i believe beauty lies in imperfection ( for some things that is).As u said one would not appreciate happiness without having a dose of sorrow.But if religion is not perfect do u think people would want to follow that religion with their heart?Some dont question their religious beliefs ... they believe that they were born in this religion.. its their fate...who are they to question it?But what about those who would want to question their religions imperfection?Wouldnt they want to follow a perfect religion?Wouldnt they want to find the perfect answers?Will they not want to follow something with their heart.

why is it that there are almost non-existent people who converted to christianity,buddhism,hinduism etc.And islam is the fastest growing religion?Its something to think about isnt it?

Reply #: 201

sadna

``Are Islamic laws perfect too? ``

Yes islamic laws are perfect. They are made by Allah and He is all-wise and so are His laws.One may question these laws but he/she will find out that for every law there is a very logical and wise reason behind it.Thats what i believe and most of the muslims too.

Sadna one cannot really know if they are perfect...but atleast our present day scholars are trying their best to make recommendations in the light of islam.

Anyway everyone has their own opinion and beliefs i cannot really force anyone to believe what i myself believe.

Reply #: 193

shankar

So you were being sarcastic..im soo sorry shankar jee that i didnt notice yr sarcasm.. you are so good at expressing yrself that i actually thought u meant all that stuff.

``The irony is that those who thump the Bible, Geeta or Koran on their chest the loudest are the ones who insult religion the most.``

Do u think that one should be embarrassed just because he/she is religious or believes that his/her religion is perfect?Insult religion .. my FOOT! You are the one whos insulting religion right now! Atleast we have some respect for our religion.I dont really care what u say.. i know what right and wrong is and im proud to be a muslim.

``There is good & bad in EVERY religion.``

Now that is where u are very wrong.Yes ``muslim countries have the same incidence of sins as Western countries`` as u said but it is because of the people who live in these countries.Islam has only good in it.As i said bfr it is only the ignorant ppl who make it seem otherwise.Anyway im afraid we are not going to agree on anything so why argue.As u wrote lets agree to disagree.

Professor saab, I respect your views and do not disagree. Does any army officer agree with you.

anyway im tired of this never ending discussion...its really not going anywhere...

i apologize for being disrespectful to anyones religion.

i know everyone respects their religion...

Klutz

klutz #215
Thanks for your reply.

``but atleast our present day scholars are trying their best to make recommendations in the light of islam.``

What if an Islamic scholar says women cannot vote? Would you accept this?

``Anyway everyone has their own opinion and beliefs i cannot really force anyone to believe what i myself believe.``

Whether those in prison for violation for `Islamic laws` may perhaps have different opinions and beliefs?

upman7626 re: 176.

Mona understood, like most people on Chowk would what I meant when I said ``Glad you have pathetic spellings`` I forgot to add ``too`` and I did say ``details later`` incase she would not get what I was trying to say. You wasted your time and energy trying to be the good guy with your, you-are-the-pathetic-speller. In your attempt to be superman you are still as unimpressive as you were or will be. However there is always the hope of change.

I certainly do not believe that my ``use of Language is very literary`` hence no, I am not arrogant about that. I, however have no doubts about what I express and feel, and if you notice I have only defended that. In addition I have accepted my bad spellings as I have my imperfection of writing style. Its the likes of you who pay attention to the package than what`s inside.

If you have a problem with something I guess it is the fact that I can be chilling and appear mean towards Indians for the reason they are Indians, sometimes it is also extended to the people who have OCD regarding put downs. I am guilty of being overly reactionary in these matters because events have conditioned me to be so, however, on my sane moments away from Chowk, I know that it is not mature. And I am not perfect ;) but I know that I will improve. Though your off-target whining will not help.

And had you known how to read, you`d understand the comment about Albert Einstein was in context to the importance of a social system with the contribution of everyone for the greater good. And not his love for Hinduism, that, I believe is his personal stuff. If one could justify the highness of a moral code based on preference of an Individual than Islam is the best due to people like The Messenger Mohammed (P), Jinnah, Attaturk, Mohammed Ali, Malcom X, Professor Abdus Salam etc...And I believe you just exposed your childish line of thought as a by product of your ``Einstien loves India and Hinduism.``

What a shame!

Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari.

RE: Reply #: 171 Eklavya

[Aeisha # 156

``This definition becomes a little narrow in Hinduism. It is currently narrow in Islam but hat is because the ideal has been steadily abandoned…on the contrary Hinduism is inertly that.``]

I said that, not Aeisha.

[If Islam regains its ideal of universal brotherhood (not just Islamic brotherhood, which I am sure you would agree must only be a distortion) and Hinduism overcomes its genuine problems of caste etc, we would be be together, don`t you think?]

I certainly hope differences could melt away because we have similar problems. History has not shown hope.

I think the problem lies in the fundamentals of the religions.

a) Hinduism is much more ancient than Islam.

b) Islam is still perhaps got a while to go before it looses its venom of breaking the patterns.

c) The concept of one source of life vs. the idea of multiple sources, often symbolic sources of life in Hinduism.

d) The caste system in Hinduism is something that in my opinion is noting bad as such if we seek to understand the idea of survival back then. Huxley, Aldous in his book, ``A brave new world`` explains so beautifully how this stratification helps in the development of a society already so advanced, that`s aim is only consumption. that vs. Islam`s idea of equality perhaps needed to scrape quiet a few structures if it needed to take effect.

e) Lack of symbolism in Islam is antagonistic to the very life blood of Hinduism.

So, with these fundamentals so polarized, no matter how much assimilation there is, the orthodox in each group will only encourage any attempt to create a mixture to be insoluble. The partition was the separation of this insolubility after long years of attempting to find a law that allows both substances (religions) to be in place and settled.

I guess I differ here, that the idea is not to overcome our inert belief systems but to let us hold them dear as we find our role in the service of our Nations. To seek to understand and work together with people whose belief system doesn’t entangle in the web of who`s God is cooler or like Upman used the Ad populam fallacy with Einstein, but to judge success by which group of people are able to walk with everyone regardless of their color caste or creed to secure what lies within the borders that surround them.

Aisha Sarwari

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re. Klutz #181

``I need no priest to ask for God`s forgiveness on my behalf!I also know that i dont need no idols to concentrate.I have enough between my ears to know that those man-made idols are just that.Man-Made! How can something which you created yourself has the power to shape your lives.I also know that i dont need to worship fire,or wind,or water. Everything is between me and my Allah.I will ask Him for help and i will ask Him for forgiveness.``

So you have a ``direct`` relationship with ``your`` Allah. How is that any better or any worse than an interceded one, other than for the reason that your Mommy told you so?

Ok, assuming a direct connection is preferrable to `your Allah`, what makes your Allah any less of an idol than one made of brick and mortar? Is tangibility a requirement for idolatry? Why is Bhagwan -- or YWH-- my autie`s favorite God -- and less of an idol than Allah?

Now. please don`t get me wrong... I`m not just trying to ridicule you, klutz... but Freankly, I am tired of hearing Christains and Muslims claim some sort of moral superiroty on the basis of their believe in ONE God, as if there was some inherent supreme moral virtue in that particular number. I am aware of the significance of Unity which underscores not just the orignial Judeo-Christo-Islamic insistence on that number but is also t obe found in Hindu and Buddhist Philosphy (despite teh outer appearances of many deities. Even the various Native American tribes, with their scores of seities, pay homage to one great Ultimate (a rough approximation of the Christian/Muslim God).

All very well, as long as there is some sort of experience attached to the concept. The Hebrews were very aware of how easily Yahweh could be turned into an idol -- not by the construction of some stone representation, but by conceptualizing without an underlying experience. Concepts, after all, can be as empty as words.

So, my dear klutz (not to sound condescending)... perhaps you will give some more thought to these matters before you feel feel that sense of superiority associated with the number One, or the idolized form of the reality to which Allah/God/Baghwan/Yahweh point.

rgds,

PM

---------

AEisha #190

``Except for Sir Syed ,majority of muslims for good or for bad ,were ideologically at logger head with christian culture of booze music,dance,gambling etc.``

hmmmm.... judging from the results of a culture in which booze, music, dance and gambling are strictly prohibited ion ideological grounds, is it really a quesstion of whether is was ``for Good or for bad``??

re. Klutz #180

``If one believes in Allah then he should also believe in HIS words. Quran is Allah`s words. there is nothing supposedly said in it. Allah said that HE will protect HIS book. No one can change HIS words even if one trys to do so.``

Like I said bfore, Ms Klutz.. I see no problem in believeing in Allah, but not believing THAT the Quran is Allah`s word perfected. Your logic is a little strange, frankly. Even if I do follow your logic that ``If one believes in Allah then he should also believe in HIS words.``, there does not automatically follow that (a) ``Quran is Allah`s words.``, or , even assuming it WAS, that it would be perfect, especially given our knowledge nowadays of the history of the Quran (never mind everything that mom and Dad told you about not one nukta being changed etc.)

#218

``anyway im tired of this never ending discussion...its really not going anywhere...``

And I thought it was only just getting interesting! :) But really klutz, you really started it... Of course you are rntitled to your beliefs, but when you air them, you naturally are provoking a debate. and it is much easier to defend a statement such as ``Islam (or any system) is not perfect`` than to refute it. Anyway, agreeing to disagree is a default condition when arguing about such metaphysics. The best we can hope to do is think a little deeper on through being questioned and provoked.

sincerely

- - - - - - - - -

re. Studebaker #184

``Also Mohommed has word from god ,Allah that it is still better to be a sinfull muslim ,than a pious non believer .You can plead for a muslim but even mohommed cannot plead for non muslims.``

And you know all this because who told you so?

Dr Hoodbhoy thanks for a great article.

I have followed your writings for a long time and i was really gratified to see you on american tv during a news programme recently, you are much younger then i thought.Keep up the good work! I hope u will interact.

If I may add my two dimes worth:

I think we need to get away from the mindset of viewing the western block in general and the U.S in particular as a monolith and our enemy they are neither.We live in a small world akin to a neighbourhood some neghbours have more then others.

like or not U.S is the center of the universe for all humanity now and for a long time to come.

The principals of democracy and individual freedom that have taken root on this soil are universal and all mankind can partake of it, and will.Inshallah.

The myth that the western block was decadent and was going to fall to pieces when challenged has been shattered.

The good news is that the so called west is no longer populated by any particular ethnic group or religious group, it is a club with membership open to all who believe in these principals.

A notice to those who oppose it,do so at your own peril.

Klutz #215, 218

Everthying in this world is imperfect. When God was unable to make a perfect world how could he/ she give us a perfect religion?

At one time Christanity was the fastest growing religion and some other point of time Budhism was and maybe at some other time some other religion has been. So you see even if Islam is the fastest growing one right now, it could be that it might be usurped by something else tomorrow. No offence intended.

Anyway as you say, even I am fed up with this heavy religious discussion. Especially, when I come to think of it that I am not particularly a very religious person.

Mona

Indeed it is amazing that the same Indians who claim that Islam is intolerant and at war with the world, are also, in the lead to be intolerant towards Islam.

These same ``tolerant`` Indians do not wish to discuss the intolerance of the Caste system; an idea integral to Hinduism. That persons exist to serve others in a higher caste. That such persons may never escape the cycle of birth, servitide and rebirth and servitude...

These same Indians say they have outlawed caste, as if they had brought it into existence by proclaiming a law. These same Indians say that caste has little functionality in ``secular`` India. Most Hindu girls interested in marriage will tell you what caste the family name of a propective groom is, which Indian State it is prevalent in. And note the kinds of vocations available to lower castes - And imagine that this applies to more than a billion human souls. Would it be intolerance to set the captives free?

These same Indians, while hurlings insults and non truths at Islam and Muslims, seem never to discuss the idea of redemption, forgiveness, mercy and compassion. They argue Muslims must not love Muslims first, no brotherhood of the Ummah, no! these same Indians who do base so many simple decisions and functions of daily life, influenced by caste, they suggest Islam is intolerant. Where minorities have few rights. They offer ``secular`` India where minorities have tremendous freedoms - ask the Kashmiri - Ask the Christian converts - ask the tribals -

They say Muslims cannot live as minorities among other peoples (Isn`t that a very tolerant view?) and therefore use of lethal force against them is justified and in the same breath, they emphasize that they are same as those against whom they exercise lethal coersion (Now, isn`t that tolerant?) ``I affirm that as a secularist I love you, but as a secularist, I feel the imperative to use lethal force against you, because you love your coreligionist`` - Isn`t that tolerant?

Rejoice Muslims! those that do hate you are ignorant - in the name of tolerance and secularism, they do practice intolerance and derive justification for it by religion!

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SOCIAL CONDITIONING UNDER ISLAM,

Kafir is a word unique to islam, it identifies all others who are not muslims. A non muslim cannot state from experience, but in the early child hood it should be damn difficult to spot an non muslim in pakistan, charecterise him/her and define a kafir. That is why the pak curriculum insists on the childrens ability to identify a hindu. Kafir and the TNT are complementary concepts.

Closely linked to the kafir is the concept of jihad. Every religion bestows the best on the true follower of the religion, usually the heaven and this is reserved for the jihadist.

PM 225

I am hurt to read such a post come from you - please reconsider

Idol :

1. A image

2. A representation or symbol of an object of worship; broadly: a false God

3. A pretender, Imposter

4. A form or appearance visible but without substance.

5. False conception, a fallacy.

Do any of these fit the monotheist tradition`s description of God? Please reconsider.

Hobbyty,

Are muslims being bombed just because they love fellow Muslims? Can you substantiate that please.

Hindus are unwilling to discuss the caste system? Can you point specifically to any?

So, how do you think that Hindus should get rid of this scourge of a caste system? If you have any better ideas other than outlawing it in the constitution please let us know.

Hobbyty, so are all idol worshippers idiots?

Hobbytv,

{{Indeed it is amazing that the same Indians who claim that Islam is intolerant and at war with the world, are also, in the lead to be intolerant towards Islam.}}

Listen, Mr Holier-than-thou pal, we hindus can say the same thing about some of the muslim posts on this thread. If Islam claims that their followers should respect all religions, how come some of the Islamic stalwarts on Chowk are intolerant to other religions?

Havent you champions of Allah insulted Hindus & Christians here?! You look down upon idol worship of hindus & the ``booze, song & dance`` of Christians. You seem absolutely oblivious to such statements (& many more) that have cropped up, not just on this thread , but for the last several years. I`m not saying we hindus are respectful to muslims---NOT AT ALL, unfortunately. But dont tell me you muslims or Pakistanis are these very courteous, respectful & civil posters who attack ONLY when provoked.

Seems to me ,in Pakistan, when hinduism or India is insulted, nobody ever challenges those views. It is accepted very matter-of-factly. Its not even considered impolite. Cyberspace is a different ballgame. Indians & hindus will give just as much as they get. Dont like it, when you get a taste of your own medicine eh? Like my friend URstruly says, give respect to get respect. So when you bash other religions & countries, have the balls to get your religion & country bashed as well. And DONT tell me that its the Indians or the hindus who always start these fights!

Some of you muslims are ignorant of the core philosophy of hinduism--hindus believe in one supreme God too. We may symbolise Him in the form of idols & give Him many names; but we believe in the same God as you. When you muslims sanctimoniously say (or imply) ``our way of praying to God is the only TRUE way, & the rest of you are inferior, immoral, ignorant heathens``; you are behaving just like the brahmins who look down upon other castes.

Yeah, caste system is WRONG, very wrong. Dowry is wrong, sati is wrong, female infanticide is wrong (er hindu religion does`nt condone that). Yes, we are attempting to correct the wrongs in our religion by passing laws. Is that enough? has the problem been solved--heck NO! But were trying. At least we have the BALLS to admit the faults in our religion.

Islam is PERFECT is`nt it? God forbid if anybody has the balls to point out its imperfections in Pakistan--his arse is in jail for blasphemy. Those who deviate from the dominant discourse of Islam are OUTCAST. Ask an Ahmedi or a Qiadiani---they are OUTCAST. God help them if they have the BALLS to call themselves muslims! Wow! What a perfect tolerant religion!!

Who is MORE perfect Sunnis or Shias? In your zeal to demonstrate that either is perfect, you even KILL each other! Allah must be very very proud of HIS favourite children, when they HATE each other & find reason to comit murder during one of your religious festivals---all in the name of HIS glory. Wah! Wah! Subhanallah!

Among Sunnis, who is MORE perfect--the deobandis, barevalis or wahabbis? Er, where do the sufis fall in the arguement of PERFECTION? Islam does`nt have a caste system. But you sure as heck have a SECT SYSTEM. Islam is Egalitarian, only in THEORY--in practice? MY FOOT! When a hindu refuses to marry into another caste--he`s goddamned shameless, as far as I`m concerned. JUST as shameless as a sunni refusing to marry a shia or an ahmedi; or vice versa. Dont tell me that doesnt happen.

So ALL muslims follow a PERFECT religion. But let me remind you of one tiny little fact---some muslims are MORE PERFECT than others.

So, you PERFECT children of Allah, I freely admit, we hindus have many, many things about our religion we are ashamed about. But we get pissed off when you holier-than-thou perfect assholes have the BALLS to stand in judgement of us. If you think Allah has given you the right to think you are better than everybody else; guess what -- you`re wrong.

tahmed,

I am glad you liked it :). I was reading your post to Sarwari on the other board in which you spread pearls of idealism (which exist outside the gandhian framework also)... but let me say this.. in any marriage, there has to be compatibility which breeds admiration and love.

Compatibility comes with the oneness of mission, and hence I personally I would like Sarwari marry any Pakistani regardless of religion race caste or creed as long as their mission is one with mine, ie Progressive Modern Pakistan as one of the greatest nations on earth.

Bhartiya Musalman

Dont beat yourself so much.... there is a long list of rejected Indian Muslim Suitors from what I understand when it comes to Aisha Sarwari. Even if you had not been uneducated, biogted, fundamentalist, confused, unsophisticated, illiterate and Ugly like you are , your mission (creation of a pan islamic khilafat and the greater state of India) can never be same as Aisha`s whose goal from what I know is a modern Progressive strong and Sovereign Pakistan.

Waisay, you keep harping about Pakistan being a failed state... when educated intellectuals say it there are reasons to it? Why are you saying it? Because your ami abu (pita ji mata ji) said it? You keep talking of a common South Asian Muslim culture and then you declare two nation theory is false ... when culture was the basic premise of TNT.

So tell me why should Pakistan be dissolved?

1) Is it the Economy? Because till the 1990s we outperformed India, and until recently atleast we had a greater GDP per capita than India... If we are in a bad patch for 10 years, my training in Economics tells me that its not that big of a deal because did they dissolve US in the great depression when US was performing much worse than Pakistan? Latin American Countries have been in much worse crisis than Pakistan for decades with spiralling super duper inflations.... I havent heard of Mexico, or Argentina, or Chile, or Equador being dissolved? Mexico even has US next to it.... which is much more developed than India can ever be.

2) Is it the poverty? Because one visit will show you that Pakistan does not have slums like Calcutta... even in the heaviest populated city like Karachi which stands with in top 15 in the world. If Pakistan was a failed state how did Karachi a fishertown of 55 000 become a metropolitan of 15 million people in just 53 years? How did Lahore gets so developed? How did Pakistanis create a city out of scratch which is one of the most beautiful cities in the world ? Islamabad? ( and on a side noteHow come atleast one of the Pakistan`s airports, Quaid e Azam International Karachi, is voted as one of the most beautiful in the world?)

3) Is it the ethnic tension ? Because whereas Pakistan has at most 3 semi active ethnic movements, India has 17 indigenous independence Movements from what I know, and I can atleast name 5 different myself, but you wont hear from Yasser Hamdani that India should be dissolved... because I simply dont care.

4) Is it because Pakistan cant keep up with India`s defence expenditure, and Pakistan cant make ICBMs, well you`ve got me on that one ... but I hardly doubt Pakistan would be dissolved for that reason or many sane Indians (unlike yourself) would want it dissolved for that reason.

5) Is it because you are a confused Pan-Islamist Indian Muslim who wants to devise stupid plans to dissolve Pakistan just so that you can face your rejection from Aisha Sarwari, ... well dream on, because Pakistan will go on because it is a nation and it will live as a nation and die as a nation.

Long Live Pakistan .. Pakistan will live on till eternity INSHALLAH!

And to borrow from Ataturk`s famous Turk Nationalist statement ... `Lucky are those who can call themselves Pakistanis`.

Upman,

Does `Bhartiya Musalman` have the `intellectual rigor` that I lack? Because if it is, then I am glad that I lack such `intellectual rigor` (Read bigoted ignorance).

Long Live Pakistan

Monaseghal to Bhartiya Musalman:

`Your remark related to a muslim convert from lower caste is most uncalled for.`

YLH says : Caste Ideology is all pervasive (in the Indian Union) despite secularism(?), Democracy(?), Islam(?)... I believe that is the point of this article! You have to fix the basic societal structure.... harping an indigenous definition of secularism and democracy in schools is not going to cut it.

PM,

I just got the chance to read your post... my personal reason for stopping that Indian from raising his flag at the `Junoon` concert... because Indians have a funny habit of claiming anything good that comes out of Pakistan as `Indian` .... Nusrat Fateh Ali... Junoon .. etc.

No it would not be right if I ripped off an Indian flag in an Indian concert because that would show `hatred` ... I always stand up for the Indian National Anthem at the Indian functions.... but this is a Pakistani Band, which should not be claimed as Indian by India...

God bless the Junoon, they always sing `Jazba Junoon` (the Pakistan Song) whether they are in NYC, LA or New Dehli!

Long Live Pakistan!

re. hobbyty #232:

``Do any of these fit the monotheist tradition`s description of God? Please reconsider.``

hobbyty, let me rehash the gist of my post (#225) to klutz:

Any THING can be turned into an idol, including concepts, and even if we pin attritbutes such as `unknowable, inscrutable` etc. to those concepts. They are no different from visual representations (and sometiems worse) IF THERE IS NO CONNECTION TO ONE`S PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AT A DEEPLY PERSONAL LEVEL. Needless to say, even if the connection exists, the virute in faith is not to be taken for granted. (Wasn`t the faith of fascist German, for wxapmle, really bereft of idols?)

For these reasons, I think that while it is wholly desireable to strive for personal religious enlightenment/finding God etc., criticizing others` metaphysics or glorifying in numerolgoy is both ignorant and self-defeating.

Let me repeat a passage of my #225, emphasis added this time:

``...perhaps you will give some more thought to these matters before you feel feel that sense of superiority associated with the number One, or the IDOLIZED form of the REALITY TO WHICH Allah/God/Baghwan/Yahweh POINT.``

In the end, the reality is a wholly personal experience.

rgds,

PM

To all: apologies for the typos.. my dyslexia seems to be blooming with the daisies.

Old `Hinduvtist` dreams die hard ! Still where were you when Jinnah had accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan in 1946?

Let me state for the record!... we will not agree to any such arrangement with India... we gave you a chance in 1946, you should have taken it. Now Pakistan exists... and Pakistan will exist till eternity!

Advani suggests confederation

NEW DELHI July 7: In a significant remark in the run up to the Musharraf-Vajpayee summit, Union Home Minister L.K.

Advani has suggested the formation of a Confederation of South Asian states, including India and Pakistan.

``I am confident that Vajpayee`s initiative will create a conducive atmosphere in the direction of the formation of a

Confederation of India, Pakistan, Burma, Sri Lanka and Nepal in the days ahead,`` Advani added.

He said the world was witnessing sweeping changes and arch rivals such as the two German republics have now reunited,

reports PTI.

The Sangh Parivar, to which the ruling BJP belongs, had originally propounded the concept of `Akhand Bharat` or united

India, which comprises the whole of South Asia, including Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Advani, however, said he disagreed with the Western perception of Kashmir as a dispute between India and Pakistan. ``We

do not see Kashmir in the context of Pakistan. For us, it is inseparably linked to India`s unity,`` he said.

Advani said the concept of self-determination espoused by separatist groups would prove detrimental more to the interests

of Pakistan as it had diverse ethnic and linguistic groups within its boundaries.-NNI

Intellectual Dishonesty...

Anyone who compares the division of Germany to Pakistan India division... is not only intellectually dishonest, but rabidly crazy!

To Schmuck / Klutz

No religion has to descend to the levels of the Cola empire to quote numbers and say they are th best. That is akin to a Tobacco company claiming superiority based upon numbers.

If somebody has to stoop to numbers to justify their (sic) greatness , then you have lost my attention.Why should somebody care whether there is one god or there is a multitude of them. Where is the evidence. Live for here for now , there is no need to instill fear into people about sins, the hereafter etc. and then leave them with your ``singular choice``. ( eg. AmReeka wight be presented with a liberal version , SE ASia might see the traditional desert version that is reserved for babarians I suppose).

As far as numbers go , I am cynical as are many others, a considerable portion could be through reproduction and many might be led the `` * * * * * *`` way by many inducements.

So prove that the only God is the only god that exists etc. and then beat your chests with your pride.

Sarwari 222 & 223,

Great posts.... very enlightening ... see how better it is when you post like this instead of threatening to bomb India... by making those threats you divert attention from your great intellectual capacity!

I wouldnt worry about Upman, ... he and Bhartiya Musalman are from the same creed... they both came in declaring that all Pakistanis are shallow, and lack in `intellectual rigor` but over the course of time both expose their ignorance, arrogance, lack of objective knowledge, and their bigoted attitude towards Pakistan.

This attitude of arrogance, ignorance, and bigotry seems to be all pervasive in the people towards are east. It is a miracle that people like Eklavya, Dostmittar, Veeresh, Shammi, etc exist in India.

Long Live Pakistan

Bhartiya Musalman 112

Before I can begin to comment on the excrement that you have splashed on this board, I must say, that every time I think we cant go any lower, we hit a new low. Your entry on chowk will indeed be classified as the lowest of the low chowk has ever witnessed.

It is my belief in humanity that makes me believe that no one, and I repeat no one can be as stupid as to make comments like the one you made in 112. Hence it is only logical to believe that you are going through a severe trauma of some sort to your overinflated ego.

It doesnot serve to assume. Anthony Aschettino and myself, we dont frequent the mosque, and secondly bigoted as Mosque Mullahs maybe, they dont bash Hinduism in the Mosques, though that maybe the case with Mosques in India. Secondly we are not wahabis. My mother is a shia for example... and Anthony`s parents are devout catholics. I am a simple Muslim, and a Pakistani first second and last.

I thank you for your invitation to join your imaginary organization. However, I cannot accept your invitation, because I dont have time to play with little kids.

Finally you say ``` I`ll treat you as a brother if you accept the Prophet (PBUH) and Allah)``. How ridiculous is that? as ridiculous as the caste system.``

On my board you wrote (Post 367)

`Firstly, you are my Bhai as I am a devout Muslim and believe in the Brotherhood of Islam.`

Kindly explain this disparity. Now see the problem you have posed? On one hand you are using `brotherhood of Islam` to which I said that I renounce the brotherhood of Islam... on the other hand you are talking of how ridiculous that concept is... Which one is it?

It is increasingly clear to me that you are a product of the confused Indian Educational system which confuses people by muddling the definitions of secular and multicultural.

So, your Ami (mata ji) proposed to Aisha on your behalf and she said no! Why do you have to take it out on Pakistan? Did it occur to you that it might be because you demonstrate very little ability to be mature, or sensible? And now you are forming imaginary organizations (Deen e Ilahi Again) to get back at her?

-YLH

PAKISTAN WILL LIVE ON TILL ETERNITY!

Hi Mona.

I know what you mean. You should read

[``Stability,`` said the Controller, ``stability. No civilization without social stability. No social stability without individual stability.`` His voice was a trumpet.]

Another favourate part...

[``He`s so ugly!`` said Fanny.

``But I rather like his looks.``

``And then so small.`` Fanny made a grimace; smallness was so horribly and typically low-caste.

``I think that`s rather sweet,`` said Lenina. ``One feels one would like to pet him. You know. Like a cat.``

Fanny was shocked. ``They say somebody made a mistake when he was still in the bottle–thought he was a Gamma and put alcohol into his blood-surrogate. That`s why he`s so stunted.``

``What nonsense!`` Lenina was indignant.

``Sleep teaching was actually prohibited in England. There was something called liberalism. Parliament, if you know what that was, passed a law against it. The records survive. Speeches about liberty of the subject. Liberty to be inefficient and miserable. Freedom to be a round peg in a square hole.``

``But, my dear chap, you`re welcome, I assure you. You`re welcome.`` Henry Foster patted the Assistant Predestinator on the shoulder. ``Every one belongs to every one else, after all.``

One hundred repetitions three nights a week for four years, thought Bernard Marx, who was a specialist on hypnopædia. Sixty-two thousand four hundred repetitions make one truth. Idiots!

``Or the Caste System. Constantly proposed, constantly rejected. There was something called democracy. As though men were more than physico-chemically equal.``

``Well, all I can say is that I`m going to accept his invitation.``

Bernard hated them, hated them. But they were two, they were large, they were strong. ]



In this book, everyone is made for everyone else, but everyone is not equal to everyone else, the Alpha`s are the higher castes and the betas the less higher and the Gammas are the lowest: kind of mutants.

None of these groups wanted to be anyone else, and his was done through conditioning. Somehow, it was an insightful experience and I could relate to the culture of the Subcontinent, the society that can trace its roots to stratification as a norm.

YOu said, ``Why I make comment on Hindu bashing is that many of the facts are not confirmed before making specific remarks. Just doing minor and meeting few people one does not become an expert. One has to live through or along with it to know what exactilly goes on.``

True!

...Got to run,

later

Aisha

A question often asked on chowk and this board: if Islam says that a nonMuslim can never be the equal of a Muslim, how can such an Islam be called egalitarian?

Can anyone quote where is there a similar fundamental and necessary requirement wrt caste discrimination in `Hindu` philosophy or belief which is `binding` on Hindus?

And not a single NWFP woman was allowed to caste her vote, reportedly, in the recent LB elections : whether this was due to Hindu culture or Islamic culture or was it due to the caste system?

Is it Islamic culture or Hindu culture not to even know that NWFP women couldnot cast their votes due to threats from Islamic organisations?

``Also Mohommed has word from god ,Allah that it is still better to be a sinfull muslim ,than a pious non believer .You can plead for a muslim but even mohommed cannot plead for non muslims.``

And this is the perfect religion you espouse?

A muslim who is drunkard, rapist, killer is any day better than pious person who doesn`t believe in Islam? And you claim this as the religion of equality? And these are the verses on which this article author`s ``secular`` pakistan is based upon? And India should be following the glorious example of this kind of ``Secular`` Sharia based on the ``Complete`` religion.

And what the heck is this, today we have perfected the religion? How many attempts did god make to ``perfect`` this religion? His trial runs with Judaism and Christianity were not perfect, so we have the ``Perfect/Complete`` religion in Islam? Does it mean this god is incompetent?

Coming back to the question of equality, Should Islam whose main prophet had several slaves, be talking about it? And for those who will quote those verses about manumission, question is why not ban slavery in the first place? The god through the prophet of yours didn`t allow the idol worship in mecca and madina( and elsewhere in the Darul-islam he could have just as well said in one of his pristine verses(Easy to understood accroding to Quran itself) that Slavery is abolised. But no,

he has other pearls of wisdom to give on whether the captured people(POW/Slaves) can be F *Cked.Off-course they can be in Islam or am I wrong? As usual I am ready to corrected, if any info is misleading.

Should Islam whose main prophet, kills a woman`s father and husband and then does the usual thing i.e.,marry her and claims the perks that go with it(or did he claim the perk before he married her?),be talking equality especially Equality for Women? Anyways shouldn`t the most beautiful women be in the booty of the prophet? Maybe thats besides the point, but that surely leaves his bodygaurds/followers on their toes the whole night, while he is doing the sacred deed of consumating his booty.. err.. his Wife?

Anyways` How can the highway robbery be justified? Offcourse with the help of god.

Doesn`t the idol worshippers have any rights? Or is it the sacred duty of the Pure religion/Complete religion`s followers to massacre them wehere ever they see them(StuBaker please do the needful by Quoting the correct verse)? Is this also part of the ``Secular`` government duties of this Tony, the italian American muslim?

Mahesh G

Mahesh, are you seriously suggesting that Hindus worship Idols? If Yes, then what is the argument? and if No, then, what`s the argument?

Were there to be a serious debate within Hinduism about the caste system - do you really think, it would be a pervaisive as it is?

Is it not proper to debate the morality and the ethics of using the system of caste as a tool to hold in servitude the minds and bodies of millions of persons?

DO Muslims and Christians, who have a different conception of the human souls relationship to it` creator, and of redemption, salvation, the role of forgiveness, compassion and the grace or karam of God, not finding converts from among the very same castes?

Are we wrong in condemning it as inhuman and intolerant?

Will you not agree that the system of caste has not been promulgated as law but as an essential article of faith?

Do you not agree that as an article of faith and it`s presence for over two thousand years, suggest that legal remedies are but obfuscation? Did Indians promulgate a law to create Hinduism or caste system?

I do not know how to go about undoing the caste system, but I suggest that greater debate on how base, inhuman and vile is this temporal and eternal system of discrimination, is what is required. Can a person claim that the human soul is devine and then subject the repository of that soul to the most foul servitudes, not just within one life time? Can one, claim love and tolerance towards others and simultaneously suggest that certain persons are born to serve others? That the difference between them and others is such that they may not be touched? that only certain vocations remain open to them and not all?

If the system of caste can be said to be a vedic creation, perhaps vedic teachings should also be used to discredit it in the minds of adherents.

Non-Hinidus cannot effect the dissolution of the system of caste in Hinduism. Only Hindus can and should.

My posts are to point out what I percieve as unfair, self righteous, bigotry directed towards Islam and Muslims and my perception of the caste system as evil incarnate. It is not the case that one or two Indians have shown Ignorance, but rather a good number mask their aversion and hostility towards Islam by seeking to justify their ignorance by taking refuge in and poluting secularism. Narrowly defining secularism as anti Islamism - a disservice to secularism and a show of ignorance. They claim that Islam lays too much emphasis on the ummah and not the brotherhood of all men, if this were true, would there be Muslims through out the world? Is it not anti Islamic and intolerant, to demonstrate hostility towards notions and calls for unity among Muslims? If within Hinduism, ideology such as the birth and existence of ten of millions of persons soley for the purpose of serving those in higher castes are not overcome, and if this discrimination, as an article of faith, carries on, would one not be concerned about how non-Hindus would fare? If Hindus as an article of faith are required to treat their coreligionists with disdain and callousness - can claims of tolerance towards non-Hindus be valid?

Sadna

SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!

THIS IS AN ABSOLUTE OUT AND OUT LIE:

`And not a single NWFP woman was allowed to cast her vote, reportedly, in the recent LB elections : whether this was due to Hindu culture or Islamic culture or was it due to the caste system?`

When did this happen? Another one of your media propaganda? Please refrain from propagating lies. I can assure you that women in NWFP voted in the LB elections. There was one district where women were refrained from voting and that too was done without the consent of the Government. Kindly stop this propaganda now! Two of my aunts have won the local body elections! Do you people forget Benazir Bhutto, was she not the Prime Minister of Pakistan? And didnt the religious parties support Fatima Jinnah`s bid for Presidency? What the hell are you talking about anyway? Sadna, the way you succumb to the devices of Propaganda shows a mischievious machiavellian streak which allows you to even lie in order to get your point proven!

`A question often asked on chowk and this board: if Islam says that a nonMuslim can never be the equal of a Muslim, how can such an Islam be called egalitarian?`

Islam protected its minorities in a time when other creeds killed off those who practised a faith unlike their own. All great things are evolutionary. 1400 years ago, Non Muslims had the protected status... today through evolution in Islamic THought, they should be equal citizen.

Thomas Jefferson in his `Notes on Virginia 1785` talked of the `inherent inferiority of the black race`. Does it mean that the ideals that he espoused and which form the egalitarian basis of the US constitution are invalid? Does the US not derive its spirit from Jeffersonian ideals eventhough today Jefferson would be regarded as the worst racist alive had he continued to espouse the same ideas of White race supremacy. But does it render the spirit of his ideals wrong? Indeed his ideals are the basis for equality for all races, all creeds, all faiths in the US. United States early Franchise was limited to Propertied Free White men... does it undo the spirit of the American Revolution? The declaration of Independence calls the Red Indians `Savages`... does that mean the declaration of Independence is oppressive?



LONG LIVE PAKISTAN!

hobbyty,

IDOLS OF MATTER AND IDOLS OF MIND

You have correctly classified images and icons as false Gods, imposters. Why not go further?

Take a word, say ROSE. As you say it, the image of a rose appears instantly in your mind. Is that mental image real? You`ll agree, its not.

Now take the word GOD. You`ll no doubt agree you have no ACTUAL idea what a GOD looks like. But yet that word instantly evokes on image in your mind - this time based on your conditioning as a muslim. And that is what you pray to.

Are you saying this mental-image is on a `higher` level than an idol-image or icon-image ???

regards,

Ylh,

``Islam protected its minorities in a time when other creeds killed off those who practised a faith unlike their own.``

This is really a outstanding discovery. Really? What happenned to the idol worshippers in Arabia?

What happened to the parsis in Iran during the onslaught of Islam.

``All great things are evolutionary. 1400 years ago, Non Muslims had the protected status... today through evolution in Islamic Thought, they should be equal citizen.``

Is this your personal opinion(I mean they should be equal citizen?) or something has been changed in the Quran, For example see the quotes below.

``Also Mohommed has word from god ,Allah that it is still better to be a sinfull muslim ,than a pious non believer .You can plead for a muslim but even mohommed cannot plead for non muslims.``

Do you believe such outdated verses in Quran be repealed and made void.

Shankar

Totally uncalled for! A diatribe! Perhaps you have been holding that in for too long.

A couple of definitions (from a holier than thou ass//hole): Articles of FAITH

Centrality of Islam is the Quran!

Quran is the revealed word of GOD!

FAITH is not amenable to scientific or logical inspection, it is intuitive, non-scientific.

Please consider the meanings and implications of the word FAITH

If God is perfect, can his revealed word be otherwise? Can it be amenable to change?

You are mixing apples and oranges: The word of God is beyond concepts of eternal -

That Muslims are sinners, flawed, and fall short of the ideal but yet must struggle to live up to the teachings of Islam is a given. I acknowledge the behaviour of some Muslims in Pakistan has been very un-Muslim, I acknowledge that the teachings and interpretations of some ``scholars`` is contrary to, and in many cases highly intolerant of other Muslims and non-Muslims. This cannot mean that Islam itself promotes such.

And is this then enough for good numbers of Indian persons to justify their their hostility towards Islam?

You seem to want to suggest there is a similarity, a kind of parity in the structure of Hinduism and Islam - but there isn`t. These faiths are structured differently, view the world and the eternal differently and operate differently. Consider how Redemption, forgiveness, grace/Karam operate.

Again, if Caste is OK by Hindus, in no way can it be OK by Muslims and Christians. It is the antithesis of those teachings. That outlawing it is not any kind of solution - it is not a creation of law. To say that we have outlawed it is but a copout! By outlawing it, what is prevented is the discussion of it`s merit, it`s origins and questions about the constructs of Hinduism and I suggest to you that this is as big a problem as the caste system itself.

From one ass//hole to another:- please consider!

You are turning this into a Hindu verses Muslim, Pakistani versus India debate. That`s a shame, because you know very well, that a debate about caste and Hindu constructs is long overdue and if fears can be set aside, only good will come from it. Moreover, Hinduism is amenabale to such debate. Ignorance is the enemy, the reward is millions of souls set free.

PM

Convulted and pained.

By definition - the monotheist God cannot be an Idol - Idolatory is false not because of the presence of the Idol but by the worship of the Idol itself. Very many confuse the presence of the idol with the worship of the Idol itself, Christians do not worship the Idol of Christ.

So can Allah/God be an idol - by definition, No!

ylh,

{{{my personal reason for stopping that Indian from raising his flag at the `Junoon` concert... because Indians have a funny habit of claiming anything good that comes out of Pakistan as `Indian` .... Nusrat Fateh Ali... Junoon .. etc.}}}

Wow! If the Indians you`ve come across claim that Junoon & Nusrat are Indian, then they are real idiots. I guess Indians at Rutgers are downright wierd. I dont find anything ``funny`` in that habit.

I`m not interested in either Indian or Pakistani music. Even then, I know that these people are Pakistani. How do I know that? Because I read Indian newspapers ocassionally. Never have I come across any Indian who claimed these people were Indian. In fact, I`ve read 100s of 1000s of Indians filled the theaters eagerly to listen to these performers from Pakistan, not to mention buying their CDs.

I hope you dont mind if Indians love to listen Pakistani performers! I also hope that their CDs & cassettes that Indians buy, give them the financial royalties that they deserve. Despite the fact that I dont think the Indian film industry gets a single paisa from the 100s of thousands of Pakistanis who eagerly watch pirated Indian films--no matter how lousy they are.

I have a few questions re your flamboyant statement of slapping that Indian at the Junoon concert for having the balls to wave the Indian flag.

1)You talked at that person directly, as if that Indian is a visitor at Chowk. Is he? If he is, then please identify him because I`d really like to know from him, why he was waving the Indian flag?

If your answer to this question is ``YES``, then please disregard the next question/observation. But then I`d really have a few questions to ask that individual.

2) If you were just making a statement that you want everybody on Chowk to know what a tough guy you are; & what lenghts you would go to defend your national pride--then I`m afraid that you have the maturity & mentality of a high school kid.

It doesnt take a huge feat of courage to slap an Indian among a sea of Pakistani fans.

But let me give you the benefit of the doubt. I`m assuming BEFORE you slapped that guy, you asked him why he`s waving the Indian flag? And I`m assuming he told you ``because Junoon is Indian, not Pakistani``.

If my assumptions are correct , then I can empathise why you slapped him. Mind you I`m not condoning your slapping him. A more mature response would have probably been shrugging your shoulder & saying `` that kind of idiotic bigotry is your problem, Indian, not mine``.

On the other hand, if my assumptions are wrong , & you are making an ``ass out of you & me``--please let me know; because I have a thing or two to say to you.

Lastly, may I join hands with you when you say ``MAY PAKISTAN LIVE FOREVER!!``? However, may I make a humble request? you`ve made your point about Pakistan`s immortality & your pride for your country & religion(about half a billion times, no less). Your point is well taken (again, about half a billion times) & you have EVERY RIGHT to feel that way (again, I will say that repeatedly about half a billion times). Its ETCHED in our brains---more than you think.

We Indians are`nt as stupid as we sometimes sound. Anybody ,with even half a brain, knows that if Pakistan goes down the tubes, she will pull down India with her. Just because a few idiot Indians put down Pakistan & Islam, doesnt mean theyre right or their predictions will come true.

Ahem , that goes ditto for Pakistani idiots..

Bharatiya musalman/ylh/sarwari?Aisha?-whatever

What is going on? Do you guys know each other (as well as the author)?. Obviously, you are throwing very personal barbs at each other.

Hey, I got no problems that you guys are doing it in this very public forum. In fact, I find it very amusing:) However, if you want your back & forth barbs to be read by all of us, then you better spill out some background info.

I`m not condoning what the Indian muslim said. It seems to me, ylh, that you are suggesting that he is an idiot & thats why he was rejected by the lady/ or he`s trashing Pakistan because `` the unattainable Pakistani grapes are sour``.

I`m warning you---if you want this tamasha to go on in Chowk, you better give us the... er Full Monty:)

ENQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW!

ylh #249

SHAME! SHAME ! SHAME !

You donot read your own newspapers.
http://www.dawn.com/2001/07/03/top1.htm

``...In Dir and Malkand districts, Tehrik Nifaz-i-Shariat Muhammadi did not allow women to cast their votes. In Dir where 137,000 women voters were registered, not a single woman was permitted to exercise the right of franchise....``


Where does Hindu culture come in? How could such a thing happen? Where were all the Islamic scholars and activists who are supposed to defend Islam`s unique rights for women??

And what about this letter, is this a serious enough situation for young chowk Pakistanis to forget bashing Gandhi and Hindu culture and get on with the real job?

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/070701/editor/let1.htm
The tension between militant religious groups and NGOs has once again boiled over into confrontation in the NWFP. At the centre of the latest storm is a network of community-run girls` schools set up by Khawenda Khor, a local welfare organization. 
Khawenda Khor works with village communities to set up schools in areas where there is a dearth of girls` schools. A number of religious groups have threatened to burn down all such schools in the province if the NGO schools in Karak district are not closed down. Earlier, the organization`s schools in Dir were targeted by extremists who claim the schools are encouraging obscenity. This is preposterous. Banning education for women is reprehensible, and against the spirit of the religion these groups profess to propagate. 
Islam in no way discourages, far less prohibits, women`s education. Religion is being used as a cover for tribal customs and notions. The provincial authorities, fearful of provoking a law and order situation, have not heeded requests for security by the terrified staff and students of the schools, which remain shut, nor acted to restrain those openly threatening violence. 
Are extremist organizations above the law? Are they free to issue inflammatory statements and fatwas, and even death threats, against anyone disagreeing with their interpretation of Islam? From NGOs to women voters, cable operators, dissenting students and those espousing a weapon-free society, the militants are targeting a widening cross-section of the NWFP population. The outcome of pursuing the current policy of appeasement could well be a steady descent into anarchy.-SHAUKAT KHAN, USA,via e-mail, July 3. 


Is a nonMuslim equal to a Muslim or not? You say he should be, how many chowkwallahs discussing on this board, the perfection of Islam as revealed 1400 years ago, accept that?

Here are excerpts from a column -- by a gutsy Muslim woman -- who obviously has no itentions to stay home and roll CHAPAATEES for her husband -- and is not afraid to take on the ``fearsome`` Generals -- her clarion call:



`Generals,return to the barracks`

BENAZIR BHUTTO

History casts its long shadow over Pakistan and its neighbour Afghanistan. The failure to reach a political settlement to the extradition of al Qaeda suspects saw the dark clouds of war descend on the region. The events of September 11 changed the calculus of politics. B-52 bombers zoomed across the sky dropping their lethal load on a country that knew too much war but was unable to make peace.

A public frenzy was whipped up in Pakistan. Many young people were motivated to donate their life savings or send their young sons off to a war ``for Islam``. They were led to believe that victory would be theirs ``once the ground assault began``.

Intoxicated by the idea of triumphing over a super-power, the misguided youth rushed to the camps of charlatans who promised them victory. The battle lines were drawn. Yet, most knew the outcome. Even as Islamabad watched the young men rush off to the arid plains of Afghanistan to defend the Taliban, it was discussing a post Taliban Afghan government.

The Taliban were doomed to military defeat at the hands of a superior military force. The young men who went to fight were abandoned. The fighting started and the Afghan militias melted into the villages. The Arab fighter, without a village to return to, fought to death or took to the mountain caves. The Pakistani, new to the terrain, had nowhere to go. He was captured, brutally beaten or killed. The Pakistani leaders, who provoked them into the fight, were conveniently under ``house arrest``.

As the Northern Alliance advanced, the bodies of unclaimed dead Pakistanis littered the landscape. They were orphaned. None had stopped them from going. None came forward to accept their dead bodies and give them a decent burial. They were abandoned. No one knows what happen!!

Defeat has its own bitter after taste. The earlier bravado of victory in the ground war and the noisy demonstrations for fighting against the infidel ended. A dark silence descended. Few asked for accountability of those who provoked young men into siding with the Taliban that resulted in blood shed. Few wondered about the mothers who lost their sons or the young widows or orphans. The second Afghan war is a double tragedy for the Muslim world. It is a war that never should have happened. Yet, in the noisy Maddrassas set up under General Zia and his intelligence, that second war took its roots bringing in its wake death, destruction and shame.

The Taliban got nothing in their determination to reject a political solution. Voices that once defended them are now silenced. Victory has a thousand fathers and defeat is an orphan. Yet those who supported the Taliban in their irrational defiance bear a moral and political responsibility for the events that took place. They owe an explanation to the thousands of Pakistanis encouraged to join an unnecessary war without a chance of victory.

The Taliban war brought world attention to Pakistan. The sun rose from behind clouds to shine on Islamabad`s rulers. The sun is bright but the clouds are still there.

The world focus is on terrorism. Its shortsigted for the military regime to see the present world sympathy as a solution to the problems of Pakistan.

The largesse of the world community during the Zia era failed to solve the internal crisis. Its unlikely that largesse today can be any different.



It is naive to assume that the billions of aid dollars flowing into Kabul will go to Pakistani contractors. The Establishment`s Taliban fixated policy alienated the Northern Alliance as well as many Pashtuns. There is little love lost for Islamabad in Kabul. Having put all their eggs in one basket, the military regime was forced to plead with the American President for crumbs in the power sharing formula for a post Taliban Kabul.

The heady days of US support in September led the military regime to warn India to ``lay off``. But the war ended too quickly for Islamabad. General Dostum in the North, rather than General Musharaf in the south, became the catalyst to force the Taliban retreat.

Islamabad still remains fixated with external props. In so doing, it neglects the internal realities. Even as the West helps fill Islamabad`s empty coffers, the economic recession continues. Capital lacks confidence in a military dictatorship governing a country with unstable borders in the North and the east and an uncertain direction.

Trade is the key to economic salvation yet it is a key lost in the Maddrassas of Pakistan. Here the men learn to fire guns instead of learning to manage businesses, lives or society.

Yet the lesson of the twentieth century is the reality of economic power. Releasing economic power requires pre-requisites that include freedom, rule of law, deregulation and open competition.

Economic interests play a critical role in building peaceful relations for trading parties. Trading relations increase the joint economic welfare of trading partners.

The ``national interest`` has become the prerogative of the Establishment. Therefore debate is silenced and its forums, such as the Parliament, redundant. Those who challenge the so called ``national interest`` are termed traitors who should be stripped of their citizenship. The pursuit of such intolerant policies breeds a culture of intolerance. Yet that culture of intolerance must be challenged if Pakistan is to become a vibrant state standing on its own inherent strengths. The time for policies of brinksmanship, calculated to bring in external props, needs to stop.

In modern management students are taught that the customer is always right. In modern state craft, the realisation is still to come that the voter is always right. The determination of some Generals to reject the view of the voter makes them part of the problem.

Amazingly, several top military leaders of Pakistan made disastrously wrong predictions on military matters. In 1990, some of the Generals predicted that Iraq would turn into America`s Vietnam. This time round, they predicted that Americans would be caught by the Taliban when the ground war started. A few years back, they predicted that the Kargil adventure would bring the country glory.

The political leadership, untrained in military matters, was correct in warning the people that a superior military force would triumph over an inferior military force. This contrast between the predictions of some leading Generals and the political leadership on the three key issues of the Kuwait occupation in 1990, the Kargil fighting in 1999 and the Kabul war 2001 are clear evidence of the need for political direction in a given country. History notes that War is too serious a business to be left Generals.

veeresh #91 By sending in one post after another trying to ``defend`` the morally impoverished and delusional nature of earlier posts, I suggest you stop for a few hours this writing. Try instead to recharge your batteries and to renew your impoverished stock of good judgement and to get rid of your delusions.

Reply #: 225

PM

``So you have a ``direct`` relationship with ``your`` Allah. How is that any better or any worse than an interceded one, other than for the reason that your Mommy told you so? ``

Aeisha u can butt in anytime u want :)

I believe what Aeisha said in her post #: 231,#:252 is very true indeed.If we go to a priest we will feel worthwhile infront of ALlah.. we will feel that only pious ppl like priests will be forgiven and only if we contact Allah through them and ask them to pray for us and ask for forgiveness on our behalf we will then be forgiven.

instead in islam we are equal infront of Allah.A sinner can ask for Allah`s forgiveness himself just like a religious person. Everything will be between them.

i believe u are very wrong about Allah being an idol.hobbyty`s post #: 232 clearly points that out.

You are right...many religions believe in ``one great ultimate``.I didnot say im superior just because i believe in One GOD.... as u pointed out christians/jews ... and all kinds of religions believe in One GOD....what i said was that yes our main belief is that there is One God...but what i meant was that islam is the complete code of life. Maybe not in ur eyes but it is in mine.

Reply #: 224

AAmir

Ohh so the whole world knows who i am???Damn and i thought i was being very discreet.btw who am i?

``there would be need for another Forum like this just to keep up with the APOLOGIES!!!``

Yep thats really true.. i just apologized for one reason and one reason only (i still believe islam is the best and i will never tire of talking abt it)... in islam we are taught not to disrespect any religion or their God.So i thought i had done that .. and only because of that i was apologizing.Dont worry aamir bhaijaan :P i dont have a sensitive skin... ill try not to apologize again hehe :)

Reply #: 220

egalitarian_brahmin

``Is it really a coincidence that Islamic nations are known to treat their minorities with contempt?``

I was going through an article and it said

[Minorities continue to be threatened in India, whereas not a single non-Muslim was deliberately killed in Afghanistan. The Associated Press reported that in Kabul there is one old Jewish rabbi who stayed to protect a synagogue in the centre of the city. The Taliban did not prevent him from practicing his religion.]

Do u have any proof that minorities are being treated with contempt in islamic countries???Maybe u will be able to provide me with 1 or 2 examples only.Such news are almost non-existent.

``Muslim Minorities want self-determination because they can`t live under ``lesser`` people``

``Muslim Majorities indulge in ethnic cleansing because they can`t live with ``lesser`` people.``

ohh reallly???When a muslim is not given his/her right, when they cant even practice their religion, when they cant even get out of their house without fear... do u think theyd have time to think about being superior to others?I dont think so.ethnic cleansing indeed! Theres always been oppression on muslims by other religious parties.And u say we cant live as muslim minorities because we want to indulge in ethnic cleansing???Boy are dead wrong or what!

``Few Muslim states will grant full political and cultural rights to religious minorities. At the same time, they will not remain indifferent to the treatment of Muslim minorities elsewhere: in Russia, Indonesia, India/Kashmir, China, and the Balkans. Other religious denominations also will support beleaguered coreligionists.``

I believe this report is entirely out of place.Our country doesnt try to curb minorities rights.I believe they are treated fairly by the govt.Why is it that america and other countries raise cry about what muslim countries ``MIGHT`` supposedly do in the near future and not do anything about how muslim minorities are being treated????We dont go around killing people of other religions!!Our muslim brothers dont go around raping women from other religions!!!!No one really cares about what muslims are going through...and u come and paste me this stupid report!!!... i dont even give a damn what these people say... They have this ideological power... they let everyone think that they dont take sides and are letting everyone know what the truth is... Truth my FOOT!!!its better to call them false propagandas!

Shanker,

What are you talking about? :$

Aisha

Mona.

I`m sorry I fogot to give you the name of the book,

``A brave New world.`` Huxley, Aldous

Later,

Aisha

re. hobbyty #252

``PM...Convulted(sic) and pained.

By definition - the monotheist God cannot be an Idol - Idolatory is false not because of the presence of the Idol but by the worship of the Idol itself. Very many confuse the presence of the idol with the worship of the Idol itself, Christians do not worship the Idol of Christ.

So can Allah/God be an idol - by definition, No!``

Yes, but is anyone and everyone *claiming * to be worshipping Allah/God etc., merely by saying (i.e, using that word) and believing so necessarily *doing * so?

I guess I`m asking the same question as anarayan did in #250, in my own convoluted and pained way. :) Care to oblige with an answer?

P.S. If your concept of an idol is limited to those with a physical presence, don`t bother with an answer.

re. klutz #260

``Our country doesnt try to curb minorities rights.I believe they are treated fairly by the govt. ...We dont go around killing people of other religions!!Our muslim brothers dont go around raping women from other religions!!! No one really cares about what muslims are going through...``

There may be a grain of truth in that last sentence, but you have to ask yourself why this might be the case with Muslims and not with say Buddhists, Hindus, Jews or Confucists...

Also, a trip to the Punjab countryside where the workers (tied down by lifelong loans to feduals) are predominantly Christian should reveal you ignorance of the extent to which Christain women are routinely raped, without any chance of redress, as the local administration is firmly in the hands of the feudals themselves.

Alternatively, a copy of one of Amesty Internationals reports could serve to fill those gaps in your knowledge.

As for Muslims not persecuting Minorites, is the blasphemy law almost always not invoked against Christians and Quaidianis -- OR Shiahs, who in the eyes of the persecuters anyway, are not Muslim?

rgds,

PM

#: 242

MT

To Schmuck / Klutz

No religion has to descend to the levels of the Cola empire to quote numbers and say they are th best. That is akin to a Tobacco company claiming superiority based upon numbers.

If somebody has to stoop to numbers to justify their (sic) greatness , then you have lost my attention.Why should somebody care whether there is one god or there is a multitude of them. Where is the evidence. Live for here for now , there is no need to instill fear into people about sins, the hereafter etc. and then leave them with your ``singular choice``. ( eg. AmReeka wight be presented with a liberal version , SE ASia might see the traditional desert version that is reserved for babarians I suppose).

As far as numbers go , I am cynical as are many others, a considerable portion could be through reproduction and many might be led the `` * * * * * *`` way by many inducements.

So prove that the only God is the only god that exists etc. and then beat your chests with your pride.



Reply #: 242

MT

Damn i lost ur attention???How heart-breaking indeed!.MT i wasnt really trying to gain ur attention anyway.

why should`nt one call his/her religion the best??i wasnt being proud (though i am proud to be a muslim), i was just stating the fact.As many muslims will agree with me. Well maybe it doesnt matter to u if there is one God or not.... but it does to me and many other ``HUMAN BEINGS`` (not only muslims)

re urstruly #120:

You can`t keep away your dirty hands even from charity organizations. Here is the breakdwon for the 3 organizations that you allege spend ``80%`` of their collections on administrative and collection expenses.

American red cross: 17%

United way : 9%

Unicef : 11%

For reference purposes checkout www.give.org

If ones preference is for particular charities be it Edhi or Burney`s trust thats fine. Making up figures is not.

For a more substansive discussion of charities worth giving and those to avoid, check out the current issue of Worth magazine(Nov 2001). I think the list is online too.

later

-sac

MastRam # 76

I wouldn’t want to get involved in conservatives vs. liberals argument here… I would also like to stay away from discussion of liberal democracies vs. illiberal democracies… These matters have been discussed to death on this site with very little progress towards identifying the real problems that we face in South Asia. Coming back to the questions you pose in your letter, let us not just talk about an economically “just” society… Let us move on and talk about an egalitarian society.

I believe that an in-egalitarian democracy is vulnerable to the alienation which arises from deep inequalities, and the sense of neglect and indifference that easily arises among abandoned minorities. This, I believe, is what is happening to Indian democracy right now. And that is why democratic societies cannot be and should not be too in-egalitarian.

In societies like the USA where a considerable chunk of the society is made up of people who, as you point out, regard equality and liberty as contradictory terms / aims, a balance is achieved by adopting egalitarian policies with redistributive effect (and to some extent also with redistributive intent). Yes, some turn out like Bill Gates and, and yet, some like the homeless guy on the pavement. But the opportunities are there for everybody to turn out like Bill Gates.

jntuece99 #78

[But I am afraid you have generalized a little too much about India.]

May be.

[But we are moving ahead. You might have noticed that there are only some pockets in India where this happens. Many other volatile places in India remained peaceful.]

I don’t disagree with you there. But in a truly democratic, secular society which India claims to be, incidents such as Gujrat massacre are totally unacceptable... The least Indian Government can do is sack Mr. L.K. Advani (we know he doesn’t have the decency to resign) for his involvement with Hindu extremists. That would be a good start if India really wants to move ahead.



shammi #104

[Fairdinkum, have you ever visited India?]

Yes, on more than one occasion… my last visit to India was relatively recently… about a year ago…



Romair #73
[Just wondering if you could give an update in what is going on in Pakistan. How has working in Pakistan been? Any changes from before.....]

Romair: Hi.

Well, prior to my current experience, I had never worked in Pakistan before… So, it was a bit shocking… but now I am beginning to get the hang of things i.e. work ethics, and work culture etc. Things are not as bad as they might appear to many of us in the west or even in the middle east. I wouldn’t advise anybody to invest their life savings in a tech. based business in Pakistan though.

The changes I have noticed:
- McDonalds, KFC, Subway, Pizza Hut everywhere… revolting stuff.
- generally speaking people don’t follow politics and power play with much enthusiasm…
- women in the cities wear sleeveless.
- They go out on dates.
- Every now and then, we have musical concerts in all major cities…
- women dance and so do men…it is shown on ptv and its no big deal for anybody.

What is more frequent than musical concerts, is massacre of people in mosques and targeted and random killings of shias… and that is no big deal either.

Urstruly,

I have run out of time and energy :(
Will write to u tomorrow.

Sadna #246 : ``if Islam says that a nonMuslim can never be the equal of a Muslim, ``

This begs the question: does Islam say what you says it says? The answer to the begged question is: No. This must be the umpteenth time I have reminded you to stop writing your bs about Islam or Pakistanis. Doesnt do any good. I think your head is made of wood and you are incapable of understanding this. Instead of wasting months and months on Chowk and learning nothing (as is true in your case), I think you should try to improve your IQ by having your village barber transplant your brain with that of a cockroach.

tahmed321 #268
Personal insults? What took you so long, sleeping on the job perhaps?

Are all chowkwallahs cowards like yourself or someone will admit that nonMuslims cannot be considered equal to Muslims in the general religious tradition?

Apparently its OK to keep abusing Hindu culture as the root of Pakistani problems, but bringing up the perfections of Islam is off limits for the infidels(who ought to shut up and take the cr-p and the blame for your sorry selves).

TAhmed:

Here, I have to intervene. After a long time, I feel that you have hit the nail right on the head. Dammit, great job :-)!

I can write a lot more on that, but I am glad that you realized what was going on. Remember, I told you a while back that you are simply wasting your time. Sometimes the effort is worth it and sometimes it ain`t.

Kind Regards.

[Standing Ovation]

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Anarayan 250

You are mistaken! No image comes to my mind when I think of the word Allah or God.

But I understand (I think) why you think what you do. It is because that is your conditioning, and the frequent use of icons and imagery in your religion.

Muslim conditioning welcomes no image of God, it`a almost sacreligious to suggest that an image of God is percieved by Muslims when they do pray to God. Perhaps you are not aware of the prohibition within Islam of any kind of religious icons. We, shamefully, tend to take the injuction against engraven images very seriously, yet, do not take seriously the injuctions against, lying, cheating, decieving and the like. Shame on us.

Egalitarian Brahmin (a contradiction in terms?)

My post on the caste must have touched an exposed nerve - There is nowhere to hide! I want the truth about your caste system and it`s relationship with your religion! And I want the truth of the discrimination and degradation this system has brought upon tens of millions of human beings!

When will you and those who believe like you in the caste system, muster the courage to provide some honest answers?

Who do you think you are fooling? You are still the coward who does plagerize and attempts to mask his hostility towards Islam and Muslims.

Some of you Indians, who mouth the word secular, have no deep realization of the meaning of the word - To persons such as yourself it is only a convenient mask. Secularism never, learn, never, was meant to be anti religion, any religion. You idiots do not realize that this concept had it`s origins in the Christian protestant movement, how could it be anti-religion. Even after two hundred years persons such as yourself are still stuck in the the monkey see monkey do mentality. Shame on you!

The cowardice of wanting to suggest that caste are really sects (Shia, Sunni) - Still not the courage to discuss caste - now you back peddle -

nowhere to hide, you and people like yourself have a choice, live like mice, avoiding the light of reason on your caste system, which is a corner stone of your religion, or live like humans, let air and shed light on the caste system and it`s connection to Hinduism - When you can do that, you can come talk to the rest of the world about what a tolerant bunch you are. In the mean time, I charge you and all those who will not reject the caste system, with having institutionalized discrimination, with inhumanly holding in cruel servitude, millions of your co-religionists and fellow humans. Shame on you for even justifying it by trying to explain it.

btw, Sorry for the personal attack. See, tolerance. polemic? First try and under the meaning of the word before you abuse it.



PM

What exactly is your position? Are you suggesting that Christians pray to Idols? If you are, You are wrong!

Christians peasants are indebted to landlords in Punjab, not because of State policy or Islam.

That they are Christians is incidental to the fact that they are poor, uneducated and unwilling or unable to make choices other than the indebtedness to the landlord, are not Muslim peasants in the same ring of fire?. So how is that discrimination against Christian peasants?