Group Captain Cecil Chaudhry, SJ

Saturday, 14 July, 2001, 07:59 GMT 08:59 UK

Musharraf arrives for historic summit

Musharraf and his wife: All smiles at Delhi airport

President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan has been welcomed in the Indian capital, Delhi, at the start of his summit with the Indian Prime Minister, Atal Behari Vajpayee.

It is the first summit between the two countries in more than two years and is expected to include the Kashmir dispute which has twice led the two countries into war.

Hours before President Musharraf`s arrival Indian and Pakistani troops exchanged fire across the line of control, which separates them in Kashmir.

Never has the requirement of [Gandhi`s] ideals been more severely felt than today, especially in the context of India-Pakistan relations



Pervez Musharraf

It was the first reported exchange of fire between the two armies this year.

In a statement issued to coincide with his arrival in India, President Musharraf said he had come to the summit with an open mind and was looking forward to having meaningful talks on the dispute over Kashmir.

He said he wanted to establish peaceful, tension-free and co-operative relations between the two countries.

Red-carpet welcome

Dressed in a traditional white coat, the president was formally welcomed at the Indian presidential palace by President K R Narayanan and Prime Minister Vajpayee.

He received a 21-gun salute and inspected a military guard of honour as Indian soldiers saluted a general who had fought two wars against them.

From there he drove to the Gandhi memorial on the banks of the Yamuna river where he laid a wreath at the black granite memorial to the Indian independence leader.

``Never has the requirement of [Gandhi`s] ideals been more severely felt than today, especially in the context of India-Pakistan relations,`` he wrote in the visitor`s book.

Earlier, a light drizzle greeted General Musharraf as he stepped off a civilian aircraft and onto Indian soil.

Pakistan`s envoy in India said his country`s attitude was positive.

Vajpayee views the status of Kashmir as non-negotiable



``Really we want to take this thing forward and I am sure that is the attitude of the Indian prime minister,`` Pakistan High Commissioner Ashraf Jehangir Qazi said at the airport.

``The Taj Mahal will be an inspiring symbol in the background.``

Both President Musharraf and Prime Minister Vajpayee have been trying to dictate the terms of their discussion.

The Indian leader wants other bilateral issues like trade and cultural links to feature, while Mr Musharraf has made it clear he wants progress on Kashmir first.

Confidence building

Mr Vajpayee views the territorial status of Kashmir as non-negotiable.

India`s strategy in the days running up to the summit has been to proffer a number of so-called confidence-building measures.

There have been a variety of initiatives:

A promise to release 400 Pakistani prisoners in Indian jails

A relaxation on the issuing of visas

The offer of scholarships to students from Pakistan

Reduced tariffs on selected imports

They have been met with a lukewarm response from Pakistan.

Boycott

It is also why the Indian Government has refused to entertain any role in the talks for the All-Party Hurriyet Conference, a loose alliance of Kashmiri separatist parties, despite an invitation from General Musharraf to meet their leaders during his visit to India.

Musharraf has agreed to meet Kashmir separatists



That encounter will take place at a tea party at the Pakistan High Commission.

India`s ruling National Democratic Alliance has chosen to boycott the reception because Hurriyet has been invited, and there is anger in Indian Government circles about Mr Musharraf`s request to talk to them.

But our correspondent says this is a marginal issue which Mr Vajpayee will not allow to deflect him from what many see as a very real opportunity to improve relations with Pakistan.

Delhi will judge success at the summit by whether progress can be made on some peripheral issues, coupled with a commitment to further talks about Kashmir.

Search BBC News Online







Advanced search options









BBC RADIO NEWS

Dear YLH . . . yeah OK, we are all really lousy here in India but I would request some responses to some questions about Pakistan:-

1) From the article above . . .

Q. What in your opinion is the future of Pakistan as a State?

A. If this government allows the present state of gross sectarianism to continue we are doomed as a nation. We must all understand that if Pakistan exists we exist and we must, therefore, shun all our differences, especially religious, unite without any bias to caste, colour or creed under our glorious flag and hand-in-hand march forward. The government must put a complete ban on all sectarian political parties and restore the Joint Electorate System immediately. Let us all be only and only be Pakistanis, first and last as directed by the Quaid in his address to the first Constituency Assembly on 11th August 1947 . . .

(and on the 14th of August 1947 my father, then, was told that he could not head the parade at Karachi for his regiment as he was a Hindu . . .why do you think this happened?)

2) For YLH again:- agreed maybe one Air Force is better than the other, the Eritreans were better cannibals than the Somalians maybe . . . but would you like to explain why Pakistan bought 3 Augusta Class submarines from the French in 1992 for about a billion dollars each while the Indians bought 4 similar design Kilo Class submarines from the Russians for a total price of 0.8 billion dollars in 1995? Hey, check out the Navy!!

3) And finally for YLH again, you STILL don`t answer my question on whether you`ve researched the Indian Air Force cum Navy raid on Karachi in 1971 . . .

Dear YLH, I`ve said this before to you, and I`m saying this again . . . We Indians are not your enemies. We Hindus are not your enemies. So who are our enemies?

For an answer to this, we shall have to meet, but preferably not at Phillipi . . .

YLH,

How cutely you have ignored my posts of facts about pak army. Please confirm after consulting wolpert that kargill and all of the strategic posts occupied during kargill invasion belonged to pakistan, pre-1971.

regards

jay.

ylh,

Just for the sake of our eternal friendship, lemme become an Indian bakra...

((22 day war in itself was a defeat for India,}}



Why?!, lemme guess... because if Pakistan had India`s numerical superiority, India would`nt last even for 2 days;--right?!

Hah! TYPICAL Pakistani excuse!

When India got clobbered by China, you Pakis got a little too big for your britches. You were too drunk by the ``fighting prowess of the marital races``--Yup legends in your own minds. One Pakistani jawaan is equal to 7 Indian jawans..too bad they did`nt fight with swords; those pathans could have clobbered those puny bania cowards!

O yeah, somehow the muslim majority of Kashmir didnt rise up & join your ``world famous`` commandos. Wonder why?

Listen betey, you wer`ent even born then. And please dont quote history books. We would listen to Radio Pakistan in those days & have a hearty laugh. Radio Pakistan would even have the nerve to call upon Indian muslims to rise & give those bumman banias a sound trashing!

The nerve of these guys! they`re down to their last bullets, desparately hoping anyone--US, China, other muslim countries to bail em out---at the same time strutting around like they won a glorious victory! Kashmir gaya Gibralter ke gutter mein!

So sorry our jawans did`nt turn tail & run at the sight of the brave Pakistani warriors. But of course; you always have an excuse to fall back upon--too many frikking Indians.

Serves you right for underestimating us.

Hey, who said you did`nt learn? Now you fight a jehad in civilian clothes (O tauba tauba--what am I saying? no no--only Kashmiris are mujahadeen), the invincible Pakistani military ONLY gives moral & political support.

Even your ALL WEATHER FRIEND China does`nt believe that. Does the Ummah believe that?!Strange silence from the brotherhood when Indians are killing muslims in a brutal genocide. Some frikking Ummah! Or maybe the rest of the world has suddenly gone blind & mad.

LONG LIVE INDIA!

INDIA ZINDABAD!!

HUM BHI KUCH KUM NAHIN!!!

WE KICKED YOUR BUTTS EVEN THOUGH WE DIDNT HAVE A WORLD FAMOUS MILITARY!!!!

ylh,

{{Looks like you have gone into one of those fits again .. well good for you :). Just snap out of it real quick alright?}}

Hey--there!! I saw you smile! Admit it! I loooove being in these fits. (shhhh--you get great grass in the US!).OK OK, for the first time you have shed that perpetually hemorroidal look you get when you enter Chowk ; like- ``I wonder which Indian is going to F with me today?--I`ll show him/her---yeah I`ll even slap him, like I did around 20 of his countrymen at that concert!``

Listen you goddamned Indians,

--in the cyberworld or the real world---nobody; but NOBODY does panga with Pakistan when my friend ylh is around. Frikking dhoti clads!; if we had any brains we`d know better! Man, he kicked some serious Indian butt on Chowk even when he was busy studying for exams!

We`re lucky he made a mistake & went to Rutgers & not the PAF academy! If not, ylh would be a PAF fighter ace today! Yaar, he would single handedly take on the entire IAF & smash it to smithereens! That too in a rickety Mig-19 converted by Chinese, modified by PAF & graced by the one & only ylh. Yaeger, Israels---no match for ylh. PAF would have been more world famouser than world famous as it is today.

Goddammit, we better get it through our coconut oiled skulls, ylh has EVERY right to be a proud Pakistani. Thanks to him, I`ve realised that Jinnah was one of the smartest Indians we could produce under the British Raj. Pakistan was HIS dream & all who believed in him, have a RIGHT to create a new nation.

If Jinnah was alive today, he`d be banging on the doors of CHOWK & saying--``look what my countrymen have done to my ideals, they spit at them EVERYDAY!!--after a long time I have discovered a true disciple-ylh!``

Jinnah came to my office today. He was very worried about ylh`s immaturity. It was OK when he was a teenager, but he`s 21 now & still regularly becomes a willing bakra. Notwithstanding ylh is sooo sure of himself, strutting like a peacock an` all, he does`nt realise that we banias on Chowk are small potatoes; we mean beans to the future of Pakistan. What happens when the fundos get a hold of him; not the chuts at Rutgers, the REAL fundos in Pakistan?! If we banias can make a bakra out of him; those fundos will slaughter him!!

OK OK--I`m snapping out of it.

Seriously, ylh, you`re an intelligent guy, but BOOK knowlege is only half-wisdom. Please take this as constructive criticism---Youre definitely not the most mature 21 yr old I`ve met. Learning how to deal with people is DAMN important for any leadership role. Judging only by how you react on Chowk, I will say that you too emotional & too sensitive. Those are weaknesses OK! And dont be saying ``I`m Punjabi, my khoon is garam, or crap like that``!:)

There are plenty of intelligent Pakistanis here who are just as proud and patriotic as you are. The difference between you & them is that they dont get a ``hard on``; everytime the word ``PAKISTAN`` pops into their minds:)

Er, sorry for the KLPD, but then I`m a penis worshipper, I cant help it!

Peace.

re ylh; several

I was only kidding about Aisha. But your comment(habit of rejecting suitors across the border)reminds me of a line or two from Shakespeare`s Merchant of Venice.

Glad you compared the `65 air war with the Battle of Britain. I have read Fricker`s book a few times; right on the mark. Few things are more glorious in the military history of Pakistan than the air war of 1965. I think both Yeager and Jabara (whose family I know well) would agree. If you forgive the ethnic slant, how could I forget the record shattering M M Alam? Or the `Tail cutters` of the 14th PAF squadron who demolished the airbase(with the Canberras) outside Calcutta?

Many years ago I heard then PAF chief Hakimullah say it best: Oh, the ISraelis can come in and bomb us alright-but they will never get back home!

Martial law and the assorted nonsense aside, the house that Asghar Khan built is something to be prod of!

Ferozek

Apart from the reasons that Manoj cited for failure of a coordinated action by IAF and army, some other causes can also be detailed. One of these is the absence of a Chief of entire defence staff and an effective espionage run by the defense forces. The communication between IAF and IA is deficient. In 1971, it was the genius of Field Marshal Maneck(sp?) Shaw who coordinated all three wings of Indian defense forces and produced a brilliant display of Indian power. Indira Gandhi was so afraid of him that she abolished this post itself. So now the Indian defense is headed by three different Chiefs each one representing one wing(like army, IAF, navy). The communication between these three wings of Indian defense is grossly deficient that hampers there capability to produce a coordinated action. The espionage system is not directly under the army chiefs, so it fails to cater to the specific needs of the army. What is needed in India is the establishment of a Joint Command under Chief of defense staff(something on the lines of Field Marshal). This joint command should also allowed to develop a vast espionage syetem that caters exclusively to the defense needs. I

Re: Naqshbandi #181

Thanks. Should have added that for Shammi as well; would have made it clearer.

The advantages of hitting rock bottom:



There are two things that can happen when a country, a company (an Air Force) etc. hits rock bottom: it either disintegrates or it restructures and ends up stronger than before, i.e. ``that which does not kill me, only makes me stronger.``

The PAF hit rock bottom in the late sixties. It had put together a super-efficient and well- funded system, based almost completely on US equipment, by 1965. Infact, it was so well funded, that it was able to put up luxury items like aeorbatics teams with names like the Red Sabres, etc. There were plenty of spare parts and officers` clubs were well stocked. Thanks to Uncle Sam.

However, by the late sixties, things started to change. The US started putting an end to its open supplies (it wouldn`t open the faucet at the same levels till the Afghan war). India, after a humiliating defeat at the hands of the Chinese in 62, and an equally humiliating stalemate against a much smaller Pakistan in 65, was finally starting to rearm. The PAF`s threats were getting larger and its resources had been cut off. Ironically, these events would prove to be the best thing that could have happpened to the PAF (after Asghar Khan).

Forced into a do or die situation, the PAF completely changed direction from US based weapons platforms (fancy name for airplane) to Chinese and French platforms. More importantly, it started to set up indigenous rebuild centers and restructured its supply management on efficient lines.

Apart from the F-16 (which only constitutes two and a half squadrons; there biggest advantage being dissimilar combat training, and probably not the aircraft themselves), the PAF is now completely equipped with French and Chinese fighter equipment. However, these platforms, specially the Chinese ones, have been locally upgraded by the PAF. A typical F-7 (Pakistani Mig-21) consists of a Chinese airframe, a Chinese engine, US sidewinder missiles, British head-up-display, US radios, US aiming radars, Pakistani cockpit layouts, etc. All this is maintained and put together and tested by Pakistanis. It is thus much more dangerous than the average Mig-21.

The PAF now rebuilds Mirages for foreign Air Forces, and earns foreign exchange. It indingenously builds MFI-17 trainers, and exports them. It rebuilds the PAF`s own complete inventory of aircraft locally. It has designed and build, with Chinese assistance, a jet flight trainer called Karakoram-8 (K-8), which has started replacing the US T-37. It will probably export the K-8 soon. If funds were available, the PAF was ready and trained to design and build a Super-7 advanced fighter with Pratt and Whitney engines, with Chinese assistance. All of this in a country which can barely indigeneously develop flashlights (even though the PAF`s development budget is only a fraction of that of the various industries in the Pakistani civilian sector).

The PAF hired Princeton Univ. to set up its college of aeronautical engg., way back in the 60s. I know people who have flunked from there, and now have technical MS degrees from good US universities. The first three Pakistanis, from amongst the students I passed my matric exams with, who received foreign Ph.Ds. (all scholarships through the S&T programs) graduated from this institution. Infact every year, the graduates of this institution score the highest grades amongst the S&T Ph.D. scholarships given by the Pakistan govt. During the Afghan war days, every single graduate of this college with a GPA higher than 3.0 would go to the USAFIT (courtesy of Uncle Sam) to get an MS degree. I even know a PAF sargent, who left the PAF and now has a US MS degree in engineering. Many PAF airmen (jawans) have become officers in the Pakistan Army, and have distinguished themselves. I remember as early as the late 80s timeframe, a policy, under which every single PAF officer was offered loans to purchase personal computers (a time when most Pakistanis didn`t even know what a PC was).

There is a lot more that goes into a good Air Force fighting machine than just good pilots. More important than anything are good training institutions and good leadership. It just goes to show that any organization, even in the third world, with good institutions, will be very successful. It also goes to show that hitting rock bottom can sometimes be a very good thing, because it leads to a do or die situation, which furthur leads to massive restructuring (Pakistan hit rock bottom during the last days of the democratic Nawaz Sharif; it is quite possible it will rise from this situation like the PAF started to do in the early 70s).

Shankar #184What YLH said about double posting is true ...it has happened with me as well...while I clicked the ouse only once...not an excuse by YLH as you accuse;-)

Shankar

Looks like you have gone into one of those fits again .. well good for you :). Just snap out of it real quick alright?

Only the last thing, I really didnt repost.. and the 1965 22 day war in itself was a defeat for India, just as Operation Gibralter was a defeat for Pakistan.

Seems like all Indians seem to be talking about how I slapped an (30 year old)Indian in a sea of Pakistanis. That Indian was not as masoom as people are making him out to be,... and he was with a gang of 20, there to create trouble so that there arent any more Junoon concerts.

I always stand up for the Indian National Anthem at Indian Shows, and I have nothing against Indians.

-YLH

hamidm,

Have you had the opportunity to read `Bhartiya Musalman`s` posts? Just asking. Please spare me the defeatist sarcasm.

Thankyou

YLH

ylh,

With pehelwans like you around, Pakistan doesnt even need a military. You can defeat India singlehandedly. However, at least give us banias some pleasure of F-ing with your head-- its so humongous, you can spare some of it. Besides, since you so looooove becoming a bakra at our hands, let me give you the pleasure of getting your masterbation down pat.

Afterall, since youre going to be Pakistan`s PM one day, this is just preparation for all the fun the REAL Indians are going to have. We expats are just an appetiser.

A war is WON if the main objective of the war is met. If it is`nt, the war is LOST. So let me set the record straight, once again.

1) 1965--Ayub launced Operation Gibralter. The objective was to ``liberate`` Kashmir. Did that happen?--NO. So Pakistan LOST. Get that straight! World famous airforce or not, Pakistan didnt liberate Kashmir. So, once again, Pakistan LOST. Keep strutting like a peacock, the bottom line wont change--Pakistan LOST.

2)1971--India`s objective was to liberate E. Pakistan. Did that happen? YES!!! So India WON. World famous PAF or not, India WON. Keep making excuses for your world famous military, the bottom line wont change---India WON.

3)Kargil---the objective was to strand Indian troops in Siachen. Did that happen?!--so, Pakistan LOST. Once again, keep making excuses, the bottom line wont change---repeat after me, India WON---oops, Pakistan LOST!!

Poor little ylh, strut strut strut--masterbate masterbate masterbate--India WON! WON!! WON!!!

nyah! Nyah!! NYAH!!!

OK OK , back to being an adult--if it makes you feel any better, India will NEVER again win a war with Pakistan. Not when both countries have nuclear bombs. Unless our objective is to destroy both countries. Hey, you had your chance, but Pakistan LOST LOST LOST. 3 strikes, youre out.

So, beta red baron, keep playing those computer flight simulators & get as many Indian ``kills`` on your computer as your big heart desires. Hey, I got a better idea! Go to Mushy & tell him how many Indians you`ve killed ! Who knows, maybe he`ll make you COAS! Then you can plot a coup (to save Pakistan, of course) & achieve your lifelong ambition--to become Pakistan`s second Jinnah.

Only one word of unsoliticed advice, O Jinnah ke bacche, you can slap an Indian among a sea of Pakistanis, but try & start a war with India & Pakistan wont exist forever. Of course, even with your world famous airforce, I`m betting those pilots will caution you that they wont be able to dogfight nuclear missiles. Boohoo, those days are over...

So let me join in in your mantra...

LONG LIVE PAKISTAN!!

YLH KI JAY!! --er, no pun intended.

Er, btw, I`m wondering if I should post this message a few more times. Heck, I can always blame it on the incompetence of Chowk staff...nah..I`ll give them a break..

TAhmed:

You sir are one of the most cool headed people I have met on chowk. Lekin IAF ko samundar mai phenk kar hamari pet pey laat to na maaro. I grew up on Airforce roti kapda and makaan. ;)

` do not know whether it is intellectual mediocrity or patriotic bias that makes it impossible for you to understand that secularism exists in India`

I have repeatedly accepted the fact that India is secular (saying Gandhi was non secular doesnt mean India is non secular) in its ideal.

Is it bigotry, eternal hatred or just unwillingness to accept that others can be right too, that makes you feel that all that is Pakistan is evil?

So you wish to call it `the Pakistanization of India`.... is this the way, the way of Insults that you find necessary to follow.

As for break up of Pakistan... there was popular discontent, Bangladesh happened right? I am not denying it. I say we could have avoided it by treating them properly, but I dont doubt their nationalism, which arose out of discontent with West Pakistan, just as Muslim Nationalism arose out of discontent with India!

Long Live Pakistan

Fuzair,

Haidar is one of the famous titles [laqab pl. ilqaab] of Hazrat `Ali ibn Abi Talib karam Allah wajhu`l karim, the son-in law of The Beloved Prophet and the fourth of the Righteous Khalifahs and the Amir of the Muslims and the Imam of Walayat. He is famous for his valour and bravery and was given the title of ``Asad Ullah al Ghalib`` by The Prophet of Allah (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) which means ``The Victorious Lion of God``.

Thus he has come to be identified with valour and the utmost acts of bravery and so the highest Pakistani medal is named after him, ``The nishan [sign] of Haidar.`` i.e. the person who wins the nishan e Haidar has shown signs of extraordinary courage reminiscent of Hazrat Haidar e Karar himself [alayhisalam]. In fact he was known by this name of Haidar in his own lifetime. May Allah send his blessings on this great Imam and make us his devotees till the Day of Judgement.

All true Muslims love Hazrat Ali. I am a Sunni but I have no problems in saying with pride:

Ali Imam e man ast o manam ghulam i Ali

Hazar jan i girami fida ba naam i Ali!

Haydari-am , Qalandar-am mast-am

Banda-i- Murtaza Ali hast-am!

That is why the highest honour is pakistan is named after Imam Ali and called nishan-e-Haidar.

:-)

Hope that helps.