Group Captain Cecil Chaudhry, SJ

Who gives a rats smelly behind when the huge majority of people in both countries are struggling to get on with their day to day lives, let alone plan for the future. When you do not have indoor plumbing or safe and clean supplies of food, it is rather specious to discuss who has the better air force.

Re shankar`s reply to ylh: quite funny. For argument`s sake, if the PAF was so superior, we ought to be learning urdu in our elementary schools!

The bottom line is nothing has changed geographically since partition except that BDesh broke away. India hasn`t taken away a square inch of paki property and vice versa save for those spats over sir creek and that piece of frozen hell called siachen.

Cheers

Jay,

Pervaiz Hoodbhoy has a constructive agenda. Yet His inconsistencies have already been revealed. However he never talked of this `K for Kafir` BS.

Dont adopt the only technique that every other Indian on this board uses to argue... create strawman fallacies and utter out and out lies.

You are the one to talk facts, when you have never uttered a single objective fact ever? You are the biggest liar on chowk and yet you claim to know facts?

It is fairly clear to me that you have been schooled and educated, but your syllabus was one of hate, lies and bigotry!

I have said it before and I will say it again.. we will not take the word of `Bharat Rhakshak` over the words of Yeager, Horner, or Randy...

Typo in post 171 ...

India had planes in excess of 600!

.......... i return to the battlefield after a week to find that ylh is singlehandedly winning the war against the indian kafirs and jay ( who is in a class by himself) ...... this obviously proves that the paf and the pakistani boy scouts, even though outnumbered, are more than a match for the idol-worshippers and other assorted kafir and munafiqs ....

P.S. i did read all the cut n`paste posts which ylh is compiling into a book titled `` indian cusine and other atrocities``

ylh# 170

..since logic or analysis has never been your strong points, let me pick up strands from your post and show how ridiculous they are, and how they contradict some of your views also:

``common religious customs as the basis of nationhood is an accepted concept amongst all Political scientists!``

common linguistic traditions, ethnic origins etc. are also considered and have examples as bases of nationhood -so do you advocate the breakup of Pakistan?..you actually have an example to follow in Bangladesh.....and do you support the formation of a separate christian state, hindu state, ahmedia state in pakistan, in continued deference to that principle?

``This is what Jinnah meant when he said `In due course of time Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will be cease to Muslims not in the religious sense because that is the personal faith of every individual but in a political sense, and we shall become equal citizens of one state.``

...Dammit! what have i been saying?!!...that i am by definition a christian, a numerical religious minority in India but i am an equal citizen and have EVERY right that any majority or minority has.....personally, for most of my time, i am unaware of my identity as a minority- because it makes no real-life difference... on official forms i fill in `X`ian` and not minority- the only time i have to remember that i am a minority is when having such insipid discussions with you or people like you, who have started raising their heads in India....the word minority carries no emotional connotation to me, its just a fact of math- just like the language i speak is minority in India, the films i like is minority in India, the books i read is minority in India, the profession i belong to is minority in India....actually i am more aware of my identity as an indian, professional,consumer and my non-majority interests than i am of my religion or language at any given point in time....your continued imparting of a negative meaning to the word minority reveals the the bigoted intellectual influences you have been used to, and may not necessarily reflect on you as a person...

``In states like the US where there are many types of Nationalisms why dont they rise up? Because they are dormant! Why? Because they are not discontent with the government!...........................Minorities exist but a truly secular state wouldnt call them minorities!``

..i hope you admit that the US is a secular state...and maybe you know that even they have `minorities`...or maybe according to you no `truly secular` state exists..

i do not know whether it is intellectual mediocrity or patriotic bias that makes it impossible for you to understand that secularism exists in India...yes there are organizations and people who have fantasies of pakistanization of India, but they exist outside the pale of legal and constitutional significance...and to get into national political life it is these people who have to alter or change their agenda- and it is not the constitution that is being changed...

Re: Shammi #157

Nishan-e-Haider is not named after any person. Haider means lion, so the literal translation of the award would be something like ``Mark/Symbol of the Lion.`` However, a better rendering would be ``The Order of the Lion`` (as in ``The Order of the Garter``).

Regards.

Re: Manoj

Yes, some Arab nations did offer aid to Pakistan. However, I am not sure about the details. I think that Iran, Libya and Jordan were the main nations to offer aid.

Ciao

Manoj:

Your post with regards to the Mirage acquisitions is equally applicable for the IAF. Its precisely for the reasons you mentioned, platform, spares etc that the IAF should have gone in for more Mirages rather than the Sukhoi.

HobbyTy:

I defer to your knowledge about the IL-76. However, I still think that the upgrades are not as much a priority compared to other stuff that the IAF needs. I don`t know if you have any idea how bad procurement systems are in India.

The first and most important acquisition the IAF needs is the AJT. As I mentioned before, conversion from Kiran to Migs is costing the IAF in terms of pilots and planes both.

The IL-76 is not being used in India in the civilian sector. But IAF pilots, who branch out to civil flying mantain their certification of aircraft type.

Manoj

You said Yeager (he was on US payroll not PAF) was biased but why did the General in the 1990s when US was trying to cosy up to India write the following?

``Pakistan has one of the best, most combat ready airforces in the world….. For the Indian war planners, the Pakistan Air Force is their worst fear. Pakistani pilots are respected throughout the world,……because they know how to fly and fight.” - Lieutenant-General Charles Horner, USAF Every man a tiger

Surely you do not expect us to take the word of Bharat Rhakshak over that of the good general, and other aces pilots like Yeager and Duke?

-YLH

Tahmed if you are referring to the double posts thats not my fault... I think Chowk messed that one up.

On Air Battles of 1965

Many objective historians have compared Battle over the Pakistan skies in 1965 with the Battle of Britain, where an out numbered Air Force 6 to 1 took on and defeated the numerically superior Air force...

I believe Pakistan had less than 150 air crafts, and India had planes in excess of 170!

Lets see now shankar Dear boy....

No objective Historian would call 1965 an Indian victory... and if a failure or success in objectives is what counts then anyone will tell you that India was not able to achieve its objectives..

Secondly 1971 to beat 90 000 troops pitted against freedom fighters, is not a big deal for a high and mighty army. The way those 14 sabres and 14 pilots held up in Dhaka is an accepted feat of bravery amongst objective circles.

Now coming to Manoj, have you gone back to denying Pakistan`s superiority in the Air... contrary to the facts provided? Well no one can stop an ostrich from hiding its face in the sand. What facts have your provided that contradict Pakistan`s claim as the world`s best flyers??

Upman,

I have never seen a person more devoid of any sense of political science than you. Nation and state are two different concepts, and guess what

common religious customs as the basis of nationhood is an accepted concept amongst all Political scientists!

Now what is Pakistan? how was it created? A minority which was made to feel like a minority rallied around their common denominator ie religion and created a nationalism, which led to Pakistan. TNT is a valid national theory, it wouldnt have made active, if there wasnt popular discontent amongst Muslims.

In states like the US where there are many types of Nationalisms why dont they rise up? Because they are dormant! Why? Because they are not discontent with the government!

A truly secular state would not have minorities just citizens. This is what Jinnah meant when he said `In due course of time Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will be cease to Muslims not in the religious sense because that is the personal faith of every individual but in a political sense, and we shall become equal citizens of one state.`

Minorities exist but a truly secular state wouldnt call them minorities!

Ylh # Various non-ending long long--------Posts

Yasser

Kaka hun ena vi bore na karo. Ik vaari shurhu ho ke band hi nahi hona. Bachpan vich lagda Doordarshan te `Chitrahaar` bahut dekhya.

Anyway, khush reh.

SUPERIOR PAF AND PAK ARMY,

On the chowk there are many ex pak military prople, all of whom are asserting the superiority of the pak army. Great, but no one wants to talk of some facts.

The famous kargill, talong, batalik and other heights from which the crucial roads for troop movements can be interdicted where part of the pak territory.

The entire kargill area from which pakistan withdrew after the washington accord were part of pakistan. Knowing the strtegic importance, dispite the alleged superiotity of the pak military, india cpatured them.

As usual, pakistanis are in a comatic dream. The end of dream is ...

Pakistan air force is great, yeager said so, army is great, another white man said, jinnah is great, wolpert said. White is better than the arab colour, indians are a darker shade. All truths are white, they come from rudgers.

YLH 149

ON K FOR KAFIR,

On this forum chowk Prof Hoodboy wrote an article stating that in the federally approved and enforced curriculum, it is a requirement that by the time pak children reach year ten they should be able to identify hindus.

Instead of wasting yor time on challenging me, try to find out whether the above is true or pro Hoodboy is a liar. If what he states is true, just try and imagine how the above objective can be achieved.

YLH it is fairly clear that you have been schooled, but has shown not much of any indication that you are educated.

K for kafir stand for a way of thinking, a world view that distinguishes between two types of people, kafirs and the others.

It stands for a world view that one can cry for the human rights issues of kashmir, but can fund and support the jihadists to their holy deaths.

No YLH, there is no need to serch for books, there is no need to accuse the indian diplomat, if you are an educated person, not just a parrot repeating Yaeger, imagine the mindset that requires identification of the hindus as a national education requirement.

regrds and best wishes to find the emotion called shame.

Jay.

Lot of ex-IAF pilots are indeed flying for different commercial airlines. Some of them have started their own little aviation outfits.

The reasons why Mirages were choosen were

french are more reliable suppliers of spare parts etc without caring wether there is a democracy / dictatorship in Pakistan. You know how the Swedes are!!! all their mumbo jumbo about human rights etc.....

Mirages were widely operated across the world are a known & proven platform.

Further, it is possible to procure second hand Mirages since their is a large user base. In fact this is what precisley pakistan has done

refurbished its own & second hand purchased Mirages under the ROSE program which has been done by the good ol French. It includes fitting new radar, weapon aiming computers etc...

Ylh have you taken the recommended deep breaths with eyes closed!!!!! do you feel better

shankar: That ``yes, whatever`` was a great response. And I see that you read my suggestion appreciated suggestion that we first merge IAF and PAF (as per someone`s suggestion) and then submerge them in the sea. I can think of no better man on chowk to have shared the thought with than you. :-)

ylh: I see you are getting hysterical while discussing pilots and planes. Close your eyes and take deep breaths until you start feeling better.