Group Captain Cecil Chaudhry, SJ

sigalph235: #278: Are you suggesting that you are the only humanitarian in the house? Or am I missing the point? Or are you being self-righteous?

A partial humanitarian is someone who criticizes others for their aggressions, but does not defend the people being attacked. A true humanitarian is someone who has the courage to actually defend those being attacked. In my opinion, the true humanitarians, at least in Pakistan, are the ones who are willing to risk their lives, to protect the other humanitarians, who are only willing to criticize.

Both these humanitarians are assets. However, I have never quite been able to figure out why the former are always bent upon criticizing the later, while the later never criticize the former.

RSexana #257: There is nothing more refreshing than waking up, turning on my computer, and seeing your enlightening comments :-) Any Indian who still hasn`t been able to figure out why Pakistan needed to be created, just needs to be pointed to your replies. If they still cannot figure it out, then I am afraid, they will never be able to figure it out. My admiration for Jinnah continues to increase, each time I read your musings.

``India has bigger problems to worry about than Pakistan.``

Could you let me know what those bigger problems are in the defence field? Is it Bangladesh? Or Nepal, or Bhutan? Or is India planning to attack China? Or is it the gigantic military power known as Sri Lanka, which needs to be wiped out? Or perhaps it is the Maldive islands, and their secret nuclear test sites? And I forgot about Tibet.

So you still did not answer my question: Do you feel that India is feuling the arms race in South Asia? If India has bigger defence problems than Pakistan, then why does it buy equipment that can only be used against Pakistan? A country can legally buy whatever military equipment it wants. However, it should then have the courage to state truthfully that it is feuling the arms race. One cannot have it both ways.

``Maybe they were, maybe they were not. I don`t know. But I do know that all Indian Muslims(different from ``Muslims in India`` like FZ), like all Indians, want what is best to protect our country.``

I am sure all Indian Muslims want to protect India. However, I had asked you how many of them would support India sending billions to Israel. If the Indian Muslims weren`t consulted, then don`t you think they should have been? Also, could you explain the difference between, ``Muslims in India`` and, ``Indian Muslims?`` Is an Indian Muslim someone who doesn`t mind not being consulted when India sends his money to Israel, and a Muslim in India someone who does mind it? It is not clear from your previous reply.

Here is what The Milli Gazette, the Indian Muslim newspaper states,

``Rally to protest against Israel atrocities on Palestinians

By Aftab Kola, Bhatkal

Coming on close heels over a resolution on condemnation of Israel for unleashing on Palestinians a spate of virulent attacks by the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board at its 14th Session at Bangalore on Oct 29 the Muslims of Bhatkal (India) went a step further by holding a mammoth protest rally. Bhatkal, today witnessed a massive public rally held to register their protest against the violence perpetrated by Israel on the Palestinians. The silent procession, comprising around 10,000 people, traversed through the main arteries of this predominant Muslim coastal town and culminated at the Anjuman Boys` high school ground. Later speaking on the occasion Maulana Abdul Bari, imam of Bhatkal`s main Jamia mosque asserted that Israel never existed before and thus it should return the land it has grabbed to the Palestinians. Maulana, condemning the unashamed show of high-tech attacks by Israel on Palestinians, appealed to the Muslims all over the world to stand solidly behind Palestine and show their solidarity with its people in their darkest hour.

Mr Zubair Musba, vice-president, Majlise-Islah-wa Tanzeem, Bhatkal under whose auspices the rally was, appealed to the Indian Prime Minister to openly condemn the atrocities and cruelty perpetrated on the unarmed Palestinians and to stop the bloodbath right away. He further urged the Prime Minister to apply full pressure on Israel through the nations of the world and the UN that it gives up its claim on Palestine for ever. Mr Hanif Shabab, general secretary of Tanzeem called upon the Indian Govt to break all ties with Israel and not to enter any covert or overt pact with them. A memorandum addressed to the Indian Prime Minister was submitted to the local assistant commissioner, Mr Javeed Batin compared the proceedings . (www.milligazette.com)

Are all the people mentioned in this article, ``Indian Muslims`` or ``Muslims in India.`` Please keep in mind these are the newspapers` words, and not mine. And every article in this newspaper (and other Muslim publications) seems to indicate that Indian Muslims (or perhaps Muslims in India) do not support India`s ties with Israel.

You seem to be supporting two contradictions, i.e. Indian Muslims (or Muslims in India) wishes are taken into account in India, however not when it involves Israel. And India is not responsible for the arms race in South Asia, but it is justified in buying billions of dollars of weapons, far beyond what it needs. These two arguments are illogical.

Another good article AH Amin

http://www.defencejournal.com/2001/may/indo-pak-wars.htm

Questions for PAF experts:

M.M. Alam is credited with 4 kills by the Indians and for 6 kills by PAF. Which is correct? He himself claims 10 I think?

I heard he took early retirement after a spat with Mrs. Anwar Shamim. True?

Anarayan, Manoj

I am impressed with the depth of knowledge you guys have displayed about aircrafts and their roles in the battle on this board. I guess this board served as an educational tool for several people.

Manoj dear

YLH is not strangely silent. YLH is unable to figure out what you are trying to do with this one article and this one question that you repeatedly pose : What did PAF do in Siachen?

Honestly, I am not a military Historian and I am far too busy to become one for you. Just because I cant present you the facts and figures of Siachen doesnt mean that PAF didnt do anything in Siachen.

Are you trying to reverse the decision rendered by

Yeager (ok so he was PAF payroll), Randy (he really wasnt), and Gen Chuck Horner who said about PAF in the 1990s, `PAF is the worst nightmare for Indian war planners.`

Surely you cant be serious when you suggest that your verdict on PAF (you being associated with IAF by relation) is the accurate version? Tell us why should we take the word of Bharat Rhakshak, or one army officer over the word of World renowned pilots and generals?

Next time you go on to self gratifying statements like `YLH is strangely silent`, consider that probably YLH doesnot consider you worthy enough to go through your long elusive and inconsequential posts, which really dont prove anything.

So you see YLH is not silent!

Fuzair, Romair, etc as seniors in War and Military History, kindly illuminate this individual on either how PAF was involved in Siachen or what tactical reasons it was not involved there!

PAF`s greatness is manifest in the fact that like RAF of the second world war it can hold at bay an Air Force many times its size.

Long Live Pakistan

East or West PAF is the BEST.

-YLH

RSaxena, Shah:

Israel has been duplicitous in its dealings with the palestinians. The promised halt to the construction and the dismantling of some settlements never happened. Palestinians simply could not trust israel. Sharon is perpetuating the misery of the palestinians for the sake of land for some new york jews with dual citizenship. The only explanation i have is that he is a racist and hates the palestinians intensely. I don`t see what options palestinians really have. They have all but been abandoned by the other arabs and the suicide bombs are acts of extreme desperation. I have been to israel and collaborate with israeli scientists and the racism of the israeli state even they`d acknowledge.

That said, Shah here crowing about the ``valor`` of the suicide bombers is quite pathetic. You are nothing more than a cheerleader in a gladiatorial combat. The lion will surely get the gladiator. Why don`t you do something tangible instead of keyboard warrioring?

Re: Shah

``I would consider the human bomb carrying hamas ,much more a soldier & bolder than all Moshe dayan ,rats combined.``

Why don`t you go join the hamas then? Strap a bomb to your chest and go do the needful to become a ``bold soldier.`` Hasta la vista, rat.

anarayan,

You mentioned HAL, Koraput and I could not resisit telling a little bit. Once up on a time, being involved with aero engine design at HAL bangalore, we designed the catytic ignition system for the reheat of mig 21 engines, and I am talking more than a quarter century ago. Orignally, I forgot the engine, had a can type ignition system, that is using an electric igniter, a torch is created to ignite the main reheat. But it has been known for some time that platinum lowers the ignition tempratures, and the exhaust gas temperature of nearly 300 degrees is adequate to ignite the fuel with platinum catalyst. So we made a system making use of this principle.

I always held out koraput as a shining example of indian idea of rural development, imphesis on social justice at the cost of economic rationalism. Koraput was in the middle of nowhere, inaccessible, surrounded by tribals. There a 8000 men high tech centre was established and that has acted as a catalyst for further development.

regards

jay.

Re: Manoj #281

Oops, sorry. I misread your post. As far as I know, there is no PAF role in Siachen as helicopters fall under Army Aviation not Air Force (in India I think helicopters belong to the Air Force, correct?). In any case, the altitudes are too high for most helicopters to operate although the French one, Lama? (not sure of the name or spelling), has limited operational use there. I remember reading somewhere that the ceiling of the Lama had been greatly extended thanks to some modification designed by EME-Aviation engineers and that this modification had been licensed to the French and thus to the Indians as well! Any input on this?

Of course the USAF and other NATO Air Forces were pounding ground targets in Desert Storm and Serbia, what else was there for them to do? All I am saying is that supporting ground operations is always at the bottom of their priorities. When there is nothing else for them to do (as in Kosovo/Serbia and Desert Storm), they will assist the Army. If you read through the USAF history and the huge fights between it and the Army, you will realize this. For instance, the Army was actually going to recreate its own fixed wing, ground attack squadrons because the USAF had made it absolutely clear that it was NOT going to do this job for the Army (it was focussed on its strategic role in the Cold War and how to deal with the Soviet Air Force in Europe). This is when the decision was made to allow the Army to build its own air power by allocating helicopters to it and reserving fixed wing aircraft for the USAF.

Regards.

romair,

you really shouldn`t admit in a public forum that you don`t pay taxes to uncle sam.

Shushma Swaraj upset the mood of the talk by floating disinformation.From then on it was just downhill with no hope of agreement in this ummit.Better luck without too many advisers that india has since long Bhutto had complained about India .India has 10 advisers per person ,he said ``aise karo ge to yeh hoga ,woh bolo ge to yeh hoga .Haan isse hoshyar rehna ,usse se mat darna ?````

Musharraf calls off Ajmer visit

The general decided to fly back home after the summit after his meetings

with Prime Minister Vajpayee went on well beyond the scheduled time.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jul/16inpak20.htm

another gem

``Try and recapture the elan he would instil in the sub-units of 45 Punjab and 46 Baluch as they fanned out left and right of us, “Good hunting, tell the Indians Taj is here”. Quite dramatic, unabashed showmanship perhaps, but invaluable in raising the morale of troops on the receiving end of continuous Indian air attacks``

Where was PAF & Chuck yeager??

other gems from the article

``I took an instant decision and moved my battalion during daylight despite air superiority of the enemy. 44 Punjab moved forward despite continuous air attacks on the single road upto Umarkot and then from Umarkot towards Chor``

....

Lt Col Taj was CO 44 Punjab (now 4 Sindh) during the 1971 war. Just consider only the events leading upto battle. As my company gave a canopy of machine gun fire over a train burning from end to end carrying Guides Cav tanks at Daharki Railway Station on 10 December 1971, he stood defiantly on the road only 200 yards away, arms akimbo flatly refusing to take cover till the Indian aircraft had been driven away and the cavalrymen ran to their tanks shackled on the MBFRs and started the engines, making a sharp right swivel to break the chains, letting the tanks fall sideways down the dusty embankment and putting out the fire. Now that I call courage! “Don’t be late” Taj growled with pride at the bravery of Guides Cavalry, “Tell Ayub (the Guides Cav CO) we have an appointment with the Indians you better not miss!”

....

Where was PAF & Chuck yeager???

Fuzair

I was enquiring about the role of PAF at Siachen.

Why did not PAF intervene at Siachen when they found that Indians had intruded unlike the IAF which flew extensively at Kargil.

I dont agree that western airforces consider supporting ground forces demeaning. If you see the air campaigns in Desert Storm or Yugoslavia the whole emphasis has been on ground attack more so since there was hardly a credible air threat from Iraqi or Serbian air forces.

YLH is strangely silent :-)

RE: Shah

Thanks for exposing yet another example of Islamic terrorism. Shame on you for taking joy in watching innocent Israelis die. Shame on you.