Group Captain Cecil Chaudhry, SJ

Cecil Chaudhry is a legend in the flying circles of the PAF. He, alongwith the late Wg. Cdr. Middlecoat, are probably the two most decorated Christians in the Pakistan military.

His interview is quite accurate regarding the Pakistan Air Force, i.e. extreme professionalism at the fighting ranks, lack of management skills at the higher ranks. Very little, if any religious discrimination at the lower and middle ranks (this is quite evident from the manner in which he talks about his squadron mates, and the important posts he was assigned to). Religious discrimination at the higher ranks, mostly due to the unwritten rules that have been put into place by the political leaders and Zia in his political capacity, and not by the military itself, due to which religious minorities do not make it past air vice marshall (Zafar Chaudhry, an Ahmedi, did make it the Chief of Air Staff).

From his comments (and I have seen it myself), the Pakistan military is still far more accepting of religious and ethnic minorities than the Pakistan civil society. This is indicated by the important positions Gp. Capt. Cecil was assigned to, like commander CCS and Squadron Commander of a fighter squadron.

Romair:

You mention that the Pakistan military is far more accepting of religious differences as compared to the civil soceity. Would you say that within the services, the Pakistan Air Force and the Navy are more liberal than the Pakistan Army?

The reason I ask is because this belief is widely held in the Indian Armed Forces, that the PN and PAF are `` Guys like us`` and the Pakistan Army are a bunch of Islamic Zealots (Post Zia). Is it possible that the Group Captain`s views towards the services are benign, because it is the Air Force he talks about and not the Army?

Group Captain Chaudhary:

Don`t know if you would be reading this...but it is wonderful to have folks like you amongst us...i read the interview...what you said...and what you said between the lines.. and what you did not say...and i agree with a lot of what you said or did not say...

Wish you a pleasant (allegorical) afternoon, sir.


Feroz:

...am thankful for this recommendation...am saddened a little...for obvious reasons...

...this took me places and times...sqn. ldr f.s. hussain...his stories are legendary...he gave headaches to his us handlers and bitter head aches to the us aces...used to have this picture... must still be in karachi somewhere...with him and ayub at a formal reception...from the photographer`s angle hussain towered over ayub...with his hands behind his back...out of respect for the c-in-c..and nursing a glass...

...cecil did not mention my one time instructor at the karachi aero club out on the university road...flt lt. nazareth...nice guy...was eased out of paf...read the readings wrong and reputedly landed in Kabul instead of Sargodha once...quite some egg on the paf hierarchy:)...but there was no iskander mirza for me when i got my gpl:)...but i still feel honoured receiving the licence from shukria khanum..pakistan`s first lady commercial pilot...

...and he did not mention khalid sattar...air commodore or air vice marshal till a sudden heart attack removed him from the scene...

...thanks again...and be good...this new found freedom is short lived...she will be back in another two weeks..and i have trained agents in lhr who will report any misdeed of yours:)

rgds,

t

Re: Stuka #2

I can`t say what the situation is right now but in the 1980s there was one Christian major general (Daniel Austin) and several Christian (and at least one Parsi) Brigadiers. However, Maj. Gen. Austin was not given a div to command because the unwritten rule, Zia`s rule but not changed by the Chiefs after him, was that no Christian would be made a GOC.

Before Zia, Qadianis were regularly at the GOC level and most officers did not consider them to be really ``non-Muslims.`` I would be quite surprised if the PN is ``liberal,`` although in all fairness I don`t know all that many PN officers, since it is stuffed full of Pathans and most Pathans tend to be more on the conservative side.

As far as the PAF goes, their view is that a PAF seargent is the intellectual equal of an Army Captain, so they do tend to look down upon the Paidal Khans in the PakArmy. Since they attract a better educated officer candidate, PakArmy tends to be the sons of JCOs/NCOs, they are less religious-minded and so more ``liberal.``

Regards.

Assalmlaikum,

This is the kind of thing I`d like to see on Chowk more often. Thank you, Chowk Staff for Publishing this.

Captain Cecil Chaudhry has had what I would describe as quality life. It is great to have people like him in Pakistan.

PAF is such an exciting institution to know and learn about.

The lesson is simple, when we fight as a country we win, when we forfeit our national duties in order to satisfy our lower needs we inevitably loose. Pakistan should not lose now for the mere reason that we have forgotten the promise, ideal and dream upon which we are built. As long as there are people willing to change that, there will be improvement and things will change.

Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari

PS: Mr. Romair, would you please email me at aisha_sarwari@yahoo.com. I have somthing to discuss with you.

Chaudhary looks like a diet version of Amrish Puri.

http://www.defencejournal.com/2001/june/contents-june2001.htm

Talks like him too:

``From that day the IAF, a force five times our size, just seemed to have disappeared from the skies, even their own.``

Hee Hee! This made my day!!!

What a fascinating article! Also, how true.

My late elder brother, an ace IAF fighter pilot himself, used to refer to Cecil Chaudhari in the post 65/71 periods.

Incidentally, why is it that the Pakistani officers at the Indo-Pak border at Wagah are from the Air Force, with Air Force ranks, while the ``other ranks`` are from the Pakistani Rangers?

I read this on another site earlier. It was
moving for me to read about a time and experience of a different Pakistan.
This is another big hint for the Pakistani Nation here.
TOLERANCE will ensure for you the road to
success. Bigotry will NOT.

It is time for Pakistanis to choose.

Ras

Mr. Chaudry,

You make us proud to be Pakistanis! My late father used to talk of you often, and my uncle Zahid, your fellow SJ (C130), does always remember you, as does my mother, Marina and my aunt Salma.

How sad for Pakistan to have men of such calibre, and to not value them!

How sad for Pakistan and Islam, that we have kept ourselves uninformed and silent of the plight of the heroic religious minorites, who did and do champion the cause of Pakistan.

Captain Cecil Chaudhry

u make us pakistanis proud!!! As hobbyty said its sad for Pakistan to have men of such calibre, and to not value them!

Cecil Chaudhury is not just a war hero, he is also obviously a very intelligent person with a great sense of humor (I loved the part about anwar shamim twiddling his thumbs all the way to the top ranks of the air force).

My Uncle was from 8th G.D.P, his picture still hangs in the No. 2 BFT sqdn. I joined much much later, I guess out of boredom...;-). Gp Capt Cecil mentioned late Air Commodore Hatmi, his son, Fawad is my course mate and was my roomate in the academy.

I would read stories about Rafiqqi, Cecil, Alam, and would dream that I was flying formations with them and and would cover the leader in fight...:-) I really did ...:-), oh well, it was a nice read, and yes, in my opinion if it matters, folks like you should have been given your due place, but honestly, don`t feel bad if you did, because history has made a place of you itself...:-)

waheed.

Article on Group Captain Cecil Chaudhry brought back memories of lahore. It makes me proud to have attended St.Anthony`s high school Lahore.

I happened to study with Gp.Cap. Chaudhry`s younger brother Anthony Chaudhry`s two sons, Keith

Chaudhry and I forgot his elder brother`s name who was a year older and went on to join Pakistan Military Academy only to leave it later, I wonder if it was due to religious discrimination he faced there?

Gp.Cap. Chaudhry`s younger brother Anthony Chaudhry was also in P.A.F and flew a helicopter and ironically he was the one who went on the rescue mission to pick up his brother when he got shot down by enemy gun fire and bailed out of his plane.

Names of famous pakistanis who come to my mind randomly when I think back about St.Anothny`s honor roll, having had the proud distinction of having two officers of Pakistan Army who recieved the highest military honror of Nishan-i-Haider attened our school, Namely, Major Shabbir sharif shaheed, Major Aziz Bhatti Shaheed and even Sq.Leader, Sarfraz Rafiqui HJ, who was mentioned in the article was an old Anthonian, I have to agree with the Group Captain that our school has produced one of the finest son`s of Pakistan.

It has the distinction of having under it`s belt not just military honors from Pakistan but also foreign medals like Victoria Cross during world War 2 from Britain awarded to a pilot serving in the Burma theatre.

Interestingly, an old Anthonian even went on to become Air Cheif Marshall for Indian air force after partition.

One of our prime minister was also an old student from St.Anthony`s, the infamous Nawaz S :)to name a few from a long list of famous people

All in all I am glad Gp.Cap Cecil C. is running our school now, after the Irish Father`s left I was unsure of what future held for our school but I am sure it`s in good hands now.

It`s minorties like him and Wing Cmdr.Middlecoat and Sq.Leader Peter C etc. who gave there lives in the line of duty for Pakistan are the people who make us all proud and it`s also sad because we have wondered away from the true democracy that was envisioned by Quaid-i-Azam, rights for all etc.

Only the implementation of these fundamental teachings will be our saving grace in years to come.

P.S. I too remember the Cannings or ``Benders`` as they were called by Father.Donnelly oh the vivid memories of it all takes me back to lahore the city I miss so dearily, I feel so nostalgic!

Stuka #2: ``The reason I ask is because this belief is widely held in the Indian Armed Forces, that the PN and PAF are `` Guys like us`` and the Pakistan Army are a bunch of Islamic Zealots (Post Zia).``

My coursemates are now Majors in the Army, Sqn. Ldrs. in the Air Force and Lt. Cdrs. in the Navy. I left when all of us were Captains, so I am not quite sure what they have been upto, since then. I did however spend about one and a half year on a joint assignment with Army and Navy officers. I was also part of the group that trained jointly with Army, Navy and Air Force as cadets (much like India`s National Defence Academy). Here is my take on their conservatism and liberalism:

If our cadet life is anything to go by, then all I can do is smile when people attempt to portray the Pakistan military as a group of religious zealots. In fact, the one thing those guys could have used was more religion :-) I was probably the more conservative amongst them. What we did in our cadet, Lt. and Capt. days would make my US fraternity brothers blush. This is not anything to be proud of, but it is about as far as one can be from religious extremism.

The Pakistan military at the higher ranks is still mostly British in its traditions. In fact, in many cases its senior members try to to be too British. It was always funny listening to people like Gen. Asif Nawaz, who spoke Urdu with a British accent (at least when he was talking to us lowly Lts.). Gen Zia was an exception to the rule. Since most civilians have very little understanding of the Army, they assume the whole military to be like Zia. However if you look at the COASs before and after Zia, all of them were quite Westernized. The last thing Musharraf, Karamat, Janjua and Ayub can be called are Islamic zealots.

I am not quite sure what the situation is now. I have heard that at the lower ranks, the Army is now becoming more and more conservative. This is probably the case, since Pakistan as a society is becoming more and more conservative. However, the Pakistan military academies operate completely on British lines, so I cannot see them producing zealots. The PAF and the Navy are probably less conservative than the Army. Probably because the PAF has a much higher educational level, and the Navy lives almost completely in Karachi. All the Navy guys I remember seemed to be mostly fun-loving Karachiites (Muhahirs, Pathans, Punjabis from Karachi), more interested in business than anything else.

My guess would be that the Pakistan military (all branches) are still mostly British in their lifestyle, from the rank of Maj. Gen. and above, with a few exceptions like retd. Gen. Javed Nasir (who used to be a notorious party animal in his younger Army days, until he became a born again Mujahid, from what I have heard). From Brigadier down to Major, it is close to the right combination of religion and Western stuff. From Captain and below, I don`t really know, since that is after my time. However, from what I have heard, these ranks in the Army, are becoming quite conservative, though not anywhere close to the zealot level.

One thing I do know is that one of the greatest shocks of my life was the great deal of ethnic rivalry, and religious discrimination I noticed when I transitioned into the Pakistani civilian sector from the military. In the military, we used to joke about it a lot, but never really faced any serious problems. The only thing that counted was the person`s rank.

That is why people like Cecil Chaudhry, Middlecoat (who is still refered to as a shaheed in the PAF circles) etc. are legends in the military flying circles, even amongst the new juniormost officers. How many Christians are considered legends in the Pakistan civilian circles? Not too many that I can think of. One can tell from the Gp. Capts. article, due to his being a religious minority, he still feels far more comfortable and respected within his military circle than his civilian circle.

Fuzair:

There is at least one thing in common between the IAF and PAF. The absolute belief in the intellectual superiority of the Air Force vis a vis the Army. The comment about an AF Sgt being the equal of an Army Cap`t, runs true in India as well. By the way, do you guys refer to the Army chaps as Pongos as well?

Here`s to looking back at fond memories of Air Force brats kicking Army brat butt at the Defense Service Officers Institute, Delhi Cantt.

Romair:

Appreciate your detailed explanation. Thanks

Stuka

Fuzair:

There is at least one thing in common between the IAF and PAF. The absolute belief in the intellectual superiority of the Air Force vis a vis the Army. The comment about an AF Sgt being the equal of an Army Cap`t, runs true in India as well. By the way, do you guys refer to the Army chaps as Pongos?

Here`s to looking back at fond memories of Air Force brats kicking Army brat butt at the Defense Service Officers Institute, Delhi Cantt.

Romair:

Appreciate your detailed explanation. Thanks

Stuka