Group Captain Cecil Chaudhry, SJ
AH Amin July 8, 2001
#49 Posted by bhartiya musalm on July 10, 2001 12:10:44 pm
Anoop: I think sir your days as a bachelor (with or without dates) are now numbered - being in your late twenties, your folks are probably trying to get you hitched as we speak. So time to pay attention to the one who you know will NOT be mistaking you for a brother. Do a good job here (hint: go for the heart and the mind when considering this person, see how her mom and dad treat one another, and forget everything else), and that is all you will ever need.
PS I too have had this frustrating experience in days of youth of being considered a good brother by a couple of classmates who should have known better than that!
PS I too have had this frustrating experience in days of youth of being considered a good brother by a couple of classmates who should have known better than that!
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#50 Posted by Romair on July 10, 2001 12:10:44 pm
There are two interesting aspects of replies and repliers on Chowk. The first is the habit of turning everything into an India-Pakistan argument, instead of an argument based on facts. The second is the inability to ignore offensive comments. Does every offensive comment deserve a reply?
Now to the issue of who has the better fighter pilots and who has the better computer scientists. Considering the fact that the genetic trees of many, if not most, Indians and Pakistanis probably meet at our great....great grandmother level, Indians and Pakistanis should be equally good programmers and pilots. But they are not. Pakistani pilots (even the ones in PIA) have an international reputation, but Pakistani computer scientists do not (Pakisatan has one of the lowest software professional to total population ratios in the world). Indian computer scientists (even the non-IIT ones) have an international reputation, but Indian pilots do not (I think, though I am not 100% sure, the IAF and Air India have one of the poorest flight safety records in the world). It is quite ironic that two third world countries have achieved world-level excellence in two extremely technically challenging fields. But why in such different fields and not the same field? And why not in every technical field, and not just IT and flying?
My answer is Asghar Khan and Nehru. The IAF (or the Pakistan Army and Navy, for that matter), wasn`t lucky enough to have it`s Asghar Khan, in its formative stages. Asghar Khan laid the foundation of some of the best training institutes/academies in the world, in the PAF. I can vouch for that personally. PAF institutes enjoy the same reputation in the international aviation arena that IITs enjoy in the international IT arena, i.e. under-budgeted third world institutes with perhaps the toughest selection criterias in the world, producing world level professionals. For example, CCS (Combat Commander`s School) that Cecil Chaudhry mentions is the PAF equivalent of the US Top Gun. In the US, only a handful of pilots goes thru Top Gun. In the PAF, every single pilot has to clear CCS to get command positions.
Similarly Nehru (our Indian friends can correct me if I am giving credit to the wrong person) set up the IITs. These IITs produced world-level professionals that laid the foundation of the Indian IT success. Pakistan was not lucky enough to have an equivalent of Nehru to set up PITs.
So if Nehru had set up PITs and Asghar Khan had been the first Indian COAS, Indian would be known for its fighter pilots and Pakistan would be known for its software engineers, and not vice-versa. It`s that simple.
I have now spent most of my life with Indian programmers and Pakistani pilots. And I can say with quite a bit of assurance that they are amongst the best in the world in their professions, and their respective reputations are very well earned.
Now to the issue of who has the better fighter pilots and who has the better computer scientists. Considering the fact that the genetic trees of many, if not most, Indians and Pakistanis probably meet at our great....great grandmother level, Indians and Pakistanis should be equally good programmers and pilots. But they are not. Pakistani pilots (even the ones in PIA) have an international reputation, but Pakistani computer scientists do not (Pakisatan has one of the lowest software professional to total population ratios in the world). Indian computer scientists (even the non-IIT ones) have an international reputation, but Indian pilots do not (I think, though I am not 100% sure, the IAF and Air India have one of the poorest flight safety records in the world). It is quite ironic that two third world countries have achieved world-level excellence in two extremely technically challenging fields. But why in such different fields and not the same field? And why not in every technical field, and not just IT and flying?
My answer is Asghar Khan and Nehru. The IAF (or the Pakistan Army and Navy, for that matter), wasn`t lucky enough to have it`s Asghar Khan, in its formative stages. Asghar Khan laid the foundation of some of the best training institutes/academies in the world, in the PAF. I can vouch for that personally. PAF institutes enjoy the same reputation in the international aviation arena that IITs enjoy in the international IT arena, i.e. under-budgeted third world institutes with perhaps the toughest selection criterias in the world, producing world level professionals. For example, CCS (Combat Commander`s School) that Cecil Chaudhry mentions is the PAF equivalent of the US Top Gun. In the US, only a handful of pilots goes thru Top Gun. In the PAF, every single pilot has to clear CCS to get command positions.
Similarly Nehru (our Indian friends can correct me if I am giving credit to the wrong person) set up the IITs. These IITs produced world-level professionals that laid the foundation of the Indian IT success. Pakistan was not lucky enough to have an equivalent of Nehru to set up PITs.
So if Nehru had set up PITs and Asghar Khan had been the first Indian COAS, Indian would be known for its fighter pilots and Pakistan would be known for its software engineers, and not vice-versa. It`s that simple.
I have now spent most of my life with Indian programmers and Pakistani pilots. And I can say with quite a bit of assurance that they are amongst the best in the world in their professions, and their respective reputations are very well earned.
#51 Posted by fuzair on July 10, 2001 4:13:35 pm
Re: B_M`s babblings
Check out the following site, http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1971War/index71.html, for a complete breakdown of IAF and PAF losses. To sum up, the IAF lost 75 planes total (to ALL causes) during the war while the PAF lost 51 (including 13 destroyed by the PAF itself in Dacca). So if we subtract these `own goals,` its a roughly 2:1 loss ratio.
The IAF lost 18 planes in Air to Air combat (versus 36 to AAA/ground fire and 2 on the ground) while the PAF lost 10 to Air to Air combat (versus 7 to AAA/ground fire and 8 destroyed on the ground). So one way of interpreting this data is that the PAF did outclass the IAF in Air-to-Air combat because its pilots were better trained, more aggressive, whatever, BUT that the PAF did not support the PA while the IAF incurred heavy losses to ground fire since it was supporting ground operations. Contrary to the bilge believed by the ``Victory through Airpower`` crowd and the nonsense spouted by Douhet, THE key role for any airforce, assuming it has achieved air superiority over the enemy, is to support ground forces. This is not glamourous and the Air Force hates it since it clearly makes the Air Force an adjunct to Army operations.
I hate to disappoint you, Yasser, but after the initial (half-a ssed planning and certainly badly executed) strikes on Indian Air Bases (which the Indians were well prepared for), the PAF basically went into stealth mode much of the time. I recall reading somewhere that when the CinC PAF was informed that the IN was steaming towards Karachi and that the PN was requesting airstrikes, his response was something to the effect of ``Let the Navy fight its own battles.``
Ask any PakArmy officer who was having his *ss shot off by the IAF what he thinks of the PAF and you will hear exactly what they thought of the PAF. PAF apologists for the command failures during the war usually mutter some nonsense about ``35% of the manpower was Bengali and we couldn`t fly enough sorties`` or wake up without bed tea or some other nonsense like this but the simple fact of the matter is that ALL three services in the West in 1971 messed up in the execution of the war. Niazi wasn`t the only moron with stars in the Pakistani Armed Forces.
Incidentally, one of the motivating factors behind the attempted coup of 1973 was that many junior officers were disgusted by our own failures in 1971 and wanted the top brass to be held accountable. Incidentally, many of those implicated in the coup attempt were from public schools, such as Lawrence College, and were highly Westernized officers.
Check out the following site, http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1971War/index71.html, for a complete breakdown of IAF and PAF losses. To sum up, the IAF lost 75 planes total (to ALL causes) during the war while the PAF lost 51 (including 13 destroyed by the PAF itself in Dacca). So if we subtract these `own goals,` its a roughly 2:1 loss ratio.
The IAF lost 18 planes in Air to Air combat (versus 36 to AAA/ground fire and 2 on the ground) while the PAF lost 10 to Air to Air combat (versus 7 to AAA/ground fire and 8 destroyed on the ground). So one way of interpreting this data is that the PAF did outclass the IAF in Air-to-Air combat because its pilots were better trained, more aggressive, whatever, BUT that the PAF did not support the PA while the IAF incurred heavy losses to ground fire since it was supporting ground operations. Contrary to the bilge believed by the ``Victory through Airpower`` crowd and the nonsense spouted by Douhet, THE key role for any airforce, assuming it has achieved air superiority over the enemy, is to support ground forces. This is not glamourous and the Air Force hates it since it clearly makes the Air Force an adjunct to Army operations.
I hate to disappoint you, Yasser, but after the initial (half-a ssed planning and certainly badly executed) strikes on Indian Air Bases (which the Indians were well prepared for), the PAF basically went into stealth mode much of the time. I recall reading somewhere that when the CinC PAF was informed that the IN was steaming towards Karachi and that the PN was requesting airstrikes, his response was something to the effect of ``Let the Navy fight its own battles.``
Ask any PakArmy officer who was having his *ss shot off by the IAF what he thinks of the PAF and you will hear exactly what they thought of the PAF. PAF apologists for the command failures during the war usually mutter some nonsense about ``35% of the manpower was Bengali and we couldn`t fly enough sorties`` or wake up without bed tea or some other nonsense like this but the simple fact of the matter is that ALL three services in the West in 1971 messed up in the execution of the war. Niazi wasn`t the only moron with stars in the Pakistani Armed Forces.
Incidentally, one of the motivating factors behind the attempted coup of 1973 was that many junior officers were disgusted by our own failures in 1971 and wanted the top brass to be held accountable. Incidentally, many of those implicated in the coup attempt were from public schools, such as Lawrence College, and were highly Westernized officers.
#52 Posted by fuzair on July 10, 2001 4:15:36 pm
Oops, sorry. The PAF lost a total of 42 planes in 1971, not 51.
#53 Posted by ylh on July 10, 2001 5:20:23 pm
Bhartiya Musalman,
Since you have never been to Pakistan, or ever travelled outside your hometown, Your ingnorance is forgiveable.
You are really giving Indians a very bad name by posting your nonsense, because it shows the ignorance of the worst class
You write :
`Your cowardice is the cowardice of expressing
ideas that lack any intellectual honesty. `
Uh huh, Kindly point out one lie, one non fact in all that I have written. On the contrary, I have repeatedly asked you to explain why Pakistan is a failed state, and why do you think Pakistan is an Arabicized state, and you have failed to answer time and again. Who is the real coward?
Then you go on to utter absolute nonsense, raising petty slogans without any concrete ideas. You call me immature, ignorant, intellectually dishonest, I say Physician Heal thyself. You have been rejected, refused and reprimanded by your own countrymen on this site for your blatant arrogance and ignorance. Who other than Rsaxena, the arrogant ignorant Hindu Fanatic, has supported you?
You have no idea about Pakistan, the world, Secularism, History, etc! You have just come in to excrete your nonsense, on this board, simply because your proposal was rejected by Aisha Sarwari.
It is her decision! She does not want to marry an indian Muslim! Simple! No hard feelings! Alright?
Stop taking it out on Pakistan ...
And then you say ...
`Remember we are no longer 8th century Bedouins who need to solve our disputes through physical fighting.`
And you end your post by
`Death to the Banana Republic (Pak-Jehad-Mullah-Stan)`
`Death to False Muslims.`
I suppose this is maturity?
And then you say
`we are involved in a debate of ideas at Chowk...so please dont play these childish games and dramatics of stating ``YLH lives in...blah blah blah``. Pathetic.`
Yup the ideas that you present are:
The Ideas Bhartiya Musalman wants to debate:
1) Pakistan should be dissolved because it is Arab!
2) Anyone who supports Pakistan is an Arab Wannbe
3) Pakistanis are racially inferior to Indians.
4) Arabs are the worst of humanity
5) Kill all Pakistanis
6) Punjabis and Pathans are inferior
7) Pakistan is going to get f 17s
8) India is the bastion of Islam
9) Any Indian who goes against BM`s words is an Arab
10) Join my organization Deen Ilahi again
11) India is the strongest nation in the world
12) India beat Pakistan in everything!
13) India has won more cricket matches than Pakistan.
14) I am a Muslim .. I am an Indian. I am the man!
15) Anyone who drinks is a false Muslim
<>
16) Anyone who lives in a frat, drinks!
<>
17) All Muslims who dont go to temples are non Muslims
<>
18) Arabs are the worst humanity
<>
19) Pakistan should be dissolved because it is Arab
<>
20) Pakistanis are inferior in intelligence!
<>
21) Look I am being supported by intelligent non biased intellectuals ie Harimau, Rsaxena
<>
22) Shammi is an Arab slave
<>
23) Eklavya is an Arab Slave
<>
24) Dost Mittar is an Arab Slave
<>
25) Veeresh is an Arab slave
<>
26) Sadna is a Goddess
<>
27) Join my organization Deen e Ilahi again.
<>
28) Arabs su--ck
<>
29) Pakistan su--cks
<>
30) YLH drinks so he is a Mullah! (nope I dont drink)
<>
31) YLH studies in the US and lives in a frat so he is a Non Muslim
<>
32) YLH is hiding behind Rutgers so he is a Non Muslim
<>
33) YLH uses the computer hence YLH is a coward!
<>
34) YLH is a coward
<>
35) YLH is an Arab Wannabe Coward
<>
36) Studebaker is an Arab Wannabe Cowardly Pakistani (eventhough he is an Indian)
<>
37) Shankar is a Maulvi from Lahore!
<>
38) Klutz is demented Arab Wannabe
<>
39) Arabs are the lowest form of humanity
<>
40) Pakistan is a failed state!
Ofcourse for Rsaxena, there hasnt been a greater hero for India!
-YLH
Since you have never been to Pakistan, or ever travelled outside your hometown, Your ingnorance is forgiveable.
You are really giving Indians a very bad name by posting your nonsense, because it shows the ignorance of the worst class
You write :
`Your cowardice is the cowardice of expressing
ideas that lack any intellectual honesty. `
Uh huh, Kindly point out one lie, one non fact in all that I have written. On the contrary, I have repeatedly asked you to explain why Pakistan is a failed state, and why do you think Pakistan is an Arabicized state, and you have failed to answer time and again. Who is the real coward?
Then you go on to utter absolute nonsense, raising petty slogans without any concrete ideas. You call me immature, ignorant, intellectually dishonest, I say Physician Heal thyself. You have been rejected, refused and reprimanded by your own countrymen on this site for your blatant arrogance and ignorance. Who other than Rsaxena, the arrogant ignorant Hindu Fanatic, has supported you?
You have no idea about Pakistan, the world, Secularism, History, etc! You have just come in to excrete your nonsense, on this board, simply because your proposal was rejected by Aisha Sarwari.
It is her decision! She does not want to marry an indian Muslim! Simple! No hard feelings! Alright?
Stop taking it out on Pakistan ...
And then you say ...
`Remember we are no longer 8th century Bedouins who need to solve our disputes through physical fighting.`
And you end your post by
`Death to the Banana Republic (Pak-Jehad-Mullah-Stan)`
`Death to False Muslims.`
I suppose this is maturity?
And then you say
`we are involved in a debate of ideas at Chowk...so please dont play these childish games and dramatics of stating ``YLH lives in...blah blah blah``. Pathetic.`
Yup the ideas that you present are:
The Ideas Bhartiya Musalman wants to debate:
1) Pakistan should be dissolved because it is Arab!
2) Anyone who supports Pakistan is an Arab Wannbe
3) Pakistanis are racially inferior to Indians.
4) Arabs are the worst of humanity
5) Kill all Pakistanis
6) Punjabis and Pathans are inferior
7) Pakistan is going to get f 17s
8) India is the bastion of Islam
9) Any Indian who goes against BM`s words is an Arab
10) Join my organization Deen Ilahi again
11) India is the strongest nation in the world
12) India beat Pakistan in everything!
13) India has won more cricket matches than Pakistan.
14) I am a Muslim .. I am an Indian. I am the man!
15) Anyone who drinks is a false Muslim
<>
16) Anyone who lives in a frat, drinks!
<>
17) All Muslims who dont go to temples are non Muslims
<>
18) Arabs are the worst humanity
<>
19) Pakistan should be dissolved because it is Arab
<>
20) Pakistanis are inferior in intelligence!
<>
21) Look I am being supported by intelligent non biased intellectuals ie Harimau, Rsaxena
<>
22) Shammi is an Arab slave
<>
23) Eklavya is an Arab Slave
<>
24) Dost Mittar is an Arab Slave
<>
25) Veeresh is an Arab slave
<>
26) Sadna is a Goddess
<>
27) Join my organization Deen e Ilahi again.
<>
28) Arabs su--ck
<>
29) Pakistan su--cks
<>
30) YLH drinks so he is a Mullah! (nope I dont drink)
<>
31) YLH studies in the US and lives in a frat so he is a Non Muslim
<>
32) YLH is hiding behind Rutgers so he is a Non Muslim
<>
33) YLH uses the computer hence YLH is a coward!
<>
34) YLH is a coward
<>
35) YLH is an Arab Wannabe Coward
<>
36) Studebaker is an Arab Wannabe Cowardly Pakistani (eventhough he is an Indian)
<>
37) Shankar is a Maulvi from Lahore!
<>
38) Klutz is demented Arab Wannabe
<>
39) Arabs are the lowest form of humanity
<>
40) Pakistan is a failed state!
Ofcourse for Rsaxena, there hasnt been a greater hero for India!
-YLH
#54 Posted by ylh on July 10, 2001 5:20:23 pm
I am the culprit now?
This Bhartiya Musalman Character has been going on repeatedly about how Pakistan is inferior racially!
Pakistani Pilots as admitted by many of your countrymen on this board are world class and this is an accepted fact.
Since you have never been to Pakistan, it will be better if you stopped making assumptions about Pakistan!
This Bhartiya Musalman Character has been going on repeatedly about how Pakistan is inferior racially!
Pakistani Pilots as admitted by many of your countrymen on this board are world class and this is an accepted fact.
Since you have never been to Pakistan, it will be better if you stopped making assumptions about Pakistan!
#55 Posted by ylh on July 10, 2001 5:20:23 pm
Only a completely delusional person would believe that India has been able to build its institutions markedly better than Pakistan.
That fanatical fools like Bhartiya Musalman wish to believe that Pakistan Air Force is not an institution of high class they can...
The USAF`s ratings, Chuck Yeager`s Analysis (you know who Chuck Yeager is dont you? Bhartiya), Jane Defense Weekly ratings, etc amount to much more than a Bhartiya Confused running around declaring
that Pakistan Air Force is bad Pakistan is bad because they are Arab Wannabe.
As for educational institutions, LUMS, AGHA KHAN MEDICAL UNIVERSITY, GIK, IBA, KING EDWARD MEDICAL COLLEGE, GOVERNMENT COLLEGE LAHORE, UNIVERSITY OF ENGINEERING AND TECHNOLOGY LAHORE, NATIONAL UNIVERSITY OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY, AND THE PAKISTAN AIR FORCE ACCADEMY RISALPUR, are amongst the world`s best
-YLH
That fanatical fools like Bhartiya Musalman wish to believe that Pakistan Air Force is not an institution of high class they can...
The USAF`s ratings, Chuck Yeager`s Analysis (you know who Chuck Yeager is dont you? Bhartiya), Jane Defense Weekly ratings, etc amount to much more than a Bhartiya Confused running around declaring
that Pakistan Air Force is bad Pakistan is bad because they are Arab Wannabe.
As for educational institutions, LUMS, AGHA KHAN MEDICAL UNIVERSITY, GIK, IBA, KING EDWARD MEDICAL COLLEGE, GOVERNMENT COLLEGE LAHORE, UNIVERSITY OF ENGINEERING AND TECHNOLOGY LAHORE, NATIONAL UNIVERSITY OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY, AND THE PAKISTAN AIR FORCE ACCADEMY RISALPUR, are amongst the world`s best
-YLH
#56 Posted by friend on July 10, 2001 5:20:23 pm
ylh #: 50
`` Even in 1971 according to Chuck Yeager, the Pakistan Air Force maintained a Kill ratio of 3 to 1 of our own............``
Oye Khotya,
Remember when I took you to your airforce web site which was total plagiarization of a Chezh site that lifted material from US site.
Even training manual on that site was verbatim copy.
Sudhar jaa puttar, sudhar jaa!!
`` Even in 1971 according to Chuck Yeager, the Pakistan Air Force maintained a Kill ratio of 3 to 1 of our own............``
Oye Khotya,
Remember when I took you to your airforce web site which was total plagiarization of a Chezh site that lifted material from US site.
Even training manual on that site was verbatim copy.
Sudhar jaa puttar, sudhar jaa!!
#57 Posted by ylh on July 10, 2001 5:20:23 pm
`And by the way, YLH, you call me ugly...without ever having seen me...hows that for a credible insult? Is that the intelectual high that you are capable of? Is that what Rutgers can produce? `
You call Pakistan names, you call Pakistanis inferior, and you live in this almost Nazi conception of the world ... and you dare talk about who says what? You havent been to Pakistan, and you probably havent met one either... then why do you keep slandering Pakistan.
You are the real coward. You are not man enough to admit when you are wrong. You kept saying Pakistan is an Arab state when we proved to you it was not. You kept saying Pakistan is a failed state when you havent defined what a failed state is... you keep calling me an Arab wannabe when I am not... you keep calling Anthony a Wahabi when he is not...
We can all go pointing fingers. The truth is that there is a lot of good about Pakistan that you cannot admit, because you inherently a coward!
And to tell you the truth, there is a lot of good about India too, but you definitely overshadow all that is good about India, with your rabid fanatical bigotry!
Look at what Indians say about you ... look at Stuka, look at Veeresh, look at Shammi, look at any mature Indian... look at what they are saying about you... have you no shame? Are you so delusional, so bigoted, so fanatical, and so blinded by your hatred and your Nazi ideals of `Indian Racial Superiority` that you will continue to spew this nonsense... this childish bakwass, which is demeaning and berating not only this site but your own country!
To the Rest:
This is an old debate. Like Romair said ... Pakistan has great fighter pilots, a professional Air Force, a quality cricket team, and great TV serials... India has great programmers, excellent engineers, and excellent entertainment industry...
Let us accept the superiority of our respective nations in these fieldS! The day India will sideline fanatics like Bhartiya Musalman, we shall have peace in the subcontinent!
Long Live Pakistan!
You call Pakistan names, you call Pakistanis inferior, and you live in this almost Nazi conception of the world ... and you dare talk about who says what? You havent been to Pakistan, and you probably havent met one either... then why do you keep slandering Pakistan.
You are the real coward. You are not man enough to admit when you are wrong. You kept saying Pakistan is an Arab state when we proved to you it was not. You kept saying Pakistan is a failed state when you havent defined what a failed state is... you keep calling me an Arab wannabe when I am not... you keep calling Anthony a Wahabi when he is not...
We can all go pointing fingers. The truth is that there is a lot of good about Pakistan that you cannot admit, because you inherently a coward!
And to tell you the truth, there is a lot of good about India too, but you definitely overshadow all that is good about India, with your rabid fanatical bigotry!
Look at what Indians say about you ... look at Stuka, look at Veeresh, look at Shammi, look at any mature Indian... look at what they are saying about you... have you no shame? Are you so delusional, so bigoted, so fanatical, and so blinded by your hatred and your Nazi ideals of `Indian Racial Superiority` that you will continue to spew this nonsense... this childish bakwass, which is demeaning and berating not only this site but your own country!
To the Rest:
This is an old debate. Like Romair said ... Pakistan has great fighter pilots, a professional Air Force, a quality cricket team, and great TV serials... India has great programmers, excellent engineers, and excellent entertainment industry...
Let us accept the superiority of our respective nations in these fieldS! The day India will sideline fanatics like Bhartiya Musalman, we shall have peace in the subcontinent!
Long Live Pakistan!
#58 Posted by ylh on July 10, 2001 5:20:23 pm
Assessment of Pakistani Military:
`Capable of defense of homeland against all existing and foreseeable theats (India)`
http://www.cdi.org/issues/Asia/PAKISTAN.html
So much for smashing Pakistan!
`Capable of defense of homeland against all existing and foreseeable theats (India)`
http://www.cdi.org/issues/Asia/PAKISTAN.html
So much for smashing Pakistan!
#59 Posted by ylh on July 10, 2001 5:20:23 pm
PAF engages Indian Air Force
9 July 1999
ISLAMABAD: In what was a classic pre-dawn interception, air defence interceptors of
the Pakistan Air Force, comprising of two PAF F-7MP fighter jets, intercepted and
engaged intruding Indian Air Force (IAF) fighter jets which crossed the Line of Control in
Jammu & Kashmir and violated Pakistan`s airspace by several kilometres. The IAF fighters
were believed to be two MiG-27ML ground-attack aircraft and two Mirage 2000H
fighters providng top cover. The event took place in the early hours of Thursday, 8 July
1999, at approximately 2:30 a.m. (0230 hours) PST.
According to sources, PAF F-7MP fighters were supported by two F-16 Fighting Falcons
providing back-up which conducted electronic jamming of the intruder IAF `bandits`. The
F-16s were scrambled whereas the F-7MPs were already on Combat Air Patrol (CAP)
duty when the incursion occured.
The PAF F-7MP air defence interceptors were immediately vectored by GCI towards the
intruding `bandits` within seconds of their crossing into Pakistan airspace. The PAF fighters
intercepted the Indian fighters and `locked` on them with their missiles. In fighter terms, this
is an invitation for a dogfight. However, the IAF fighters refused to engage in return and
instead fled straight back into the airspace of Indian-held Kashmir in what PAF pilots
perceived was sheer panic. ``It was not a very orderly or dignified exit``, remarked a PAF
officer.
According to PAF sources, even the Dynamic Launch Zone (DLZ) perimetres had been
met for launching of the air-to-air missiles which means that the PAF pilots had gotten the
AAM tone indicating the bandits were well within shoot-down range of the PAF fighters.
A missile tone is achieved when the missile`s infrared heat-seeker or its radar has picked
up the hostile aircraft. ``It looks as if we gave them a fright``, says a PAF officer, ``Their
RWR signal would have been blasting off in the cockpits as our interceptors tracked them``.
If the missiles were short-range heat-seeking missiles, then this would imply that the
distance between the PAF and the IAF fighters was less than 10 kilometres - ``Too close
for comfort``, as the PAF officer remarked.
PAF fighters did not shoot down the Indian fighters even though they were within range of
the air-to-air missiles of the PAF fighters. The Indian fighters were perilously close to the
Line of Control and their wreckage may have fallen inside Indian-held Kashmir territory
which, going by their track record, would have given the Indian authorities the opportunity
to blame the PAF for the intrusion.
According to the PAF Rules of Engagement (ROE), three conditions have to be met in
peacetime before an enemy aircraft can be shot down: (i) the enemy aircraft must violate
Pakistan`s airspace; (ii) it must be a combat aircraft and (iii) its wreckage must fall inside
Pakistani territory. `Peacetime` in the context of India and Pakistan means when no war has
been declared.
In this instance, the third criterion may not have been met as the IAF fighters were too
close to the LoC and their wreckage may have fallen on either side of the LoC.
``All the intruder Indian fighters fled when our our air defence fighters locked on them``, said
a PAF officer.
A second intrusion occured seven and a half hours later, at approximately 10:00 a.m.
(1000 hours) PST, when two IAF fighter jets violated Pakistan`s airspace in the
Mushkoh-Olding sector in Jammu & Kashmir. Two F-7MPs were immediately scrambled
from a forward PAF air base to intercept the two intruders. However, the IAF jets sensing
the PAF fighters fast approaching them, turned back and fled into Indian-held Kashmir
before the PAF interceptors could get a missile lock-on them.
In both cases, the IAF intruders had taken off from Srinagar air base, according to PAF
GCI controllers.
It is pertinent to mention here that earlier this year, on 27 May 1999, two intruder Indian
Air Force MiGs - a MiG-27ML and a MiG-21bis - were shot down by the Air Defence
Command of the Pakistan Army using Anza-II SAMs after the IAF jets had violated
Pakistan`s airspace in the Jammu & Kashmir region. The wreckage of both the Indian
aircraft fell 10-12 kilometres inside Pakistani territory near Hamzi Ghund. One Indian pilot,
Flt. Lt. K. Nachiketa, was captured whereas the other pilot, Sqn. Ldr. Ajay Ahuja, was
killed. Sqn. Ldr. Ahuja`s body was returned to India with full military honours and Flt. Lt.
Nachiketa was released shortly afterwards.
9 July 1999
ISLAMABAD: In what was a classic pre-dawn interception, air defence interceptors of
the Pakistan Air Force, comprising of two PAF F-7MP fighter jets, intercepted and
engaged intruding Indian Air Force (IAF) fighter jets which crossed the Line of Control in
Jammu & Kashmir and violated Pakistan`s airspace by several kilometres. The IAF fighters
were believed to be two MiG-27ML ground-attack aircraft and two Mirage 2000H
fighters providng top cover. The event took place in the early hours of Thursday, 8 July
1999, at approximately 2:30 a.m. (0230 hours) PST.
According to sources, PAF F-7MP fighters were supported by two F-16 Fighting Falcons
providing back-up which conducted electronic jamming of the intruder IAF `bandits`. The
F-16s were scrambled whereas the F-7MPs were already on Combat Air Patrol (CAP)
duty when the incursion occured.
The PAF F-7MP air defence interceptors were immediately vectored by GCI towards the
intruding `bandits` within seconds of their crossing into Pakistan airspace. The PAF fighters
intercepted the Indian fighters and `locked` on them with their missiles. In fighter terms, this
is an invitation for a dogfight. However, the IAF fighters refused to engage in return and
instead fled straight back into the airspace of Indian-held Kashmir in what PAF pilots
perceived was sheer panic. ``It was not a very orderly or dignified exit``, remarked a PAF
officer.
According to PAF sources, even the Dynamic Launch Zone (DLZ) perimetres had been
met for launching of the air-to-air missiles which means that the PAF pilots had gotten the
AAM tone indicating the bandits were well within shoot-down range of the PAF fighters.
A missile tone is achieved when the missile`s infrared heat-seeker or its radar has picked
up the hostile aircraft. ``It looks as if we gave them a fright``, says a PAF officer, ``Their
RWR signal would have been blasting off in the cockpits as our interceptors tracked them``.
If the missiles were short-range heat-seeking missiles, then this would imply that the
distance between the PAF and the IAF fighters was less than 10 kilometres - ``Too close
for comfort``, as the PAF officer remarked.
PAF fighters did not shoot down the Indian fighters even though they were within range of
the air-to-air missiles of the PAF fighters. The Indian fighters were perilously close to the
Line of Control and their wreckage may have fallen inside Indian-held Kashmir territory
which, going by their track record, would have given the Indian authorities the opportunity
to blame the PAF for the intrusion.
According to the PAF Rules of Engagement (ROE), three conditions have to be met in
peacetime before an enemy aircraft can be shot down: (i) the enemy aircraft must violate
Pakistan`s airspace; (ii) it must be a combat aircraft and (iii) its wreckage must fall inside
Pakistani territory. `Peacetime` in the context of India and Pakistan means when no war has
been declared.
In this instance, the third criterion may not have been met as the IAF fighters were too
close to the LoC and their wreckage may have fallen on either side of the LoC.
``All the intruder Indian fighters fled when our our air defence fighters locked on them``, said
a PAF officer.
A second intrusion occured seven and a half hours later, at approximately 10:00 a.m.
(1000 hours) PST, when two IAF fighter jets violated Pakistan`s airspace in the
Mushkoh-Olding sector in Jammu & Kashmir. Two F-7MPs were immediately scrambled
from a forward PAF air base to intercept the two intruders. However, the IAF jets sensing
the PAF fighters fast approaching them, turned back and fled into Indian-held Kashmir
before the PAF interceptors could get a missile lock-on them.
In both cases, the IAF intruders had taken off from Srinagar air base, according to PAF
GCI controllers.
It is pertinent to mention here that earlier this year, on 27 May 1999, two intruder Indian
Air Force MiGs - a MiG-27ML and a MiG-21bis - were shot down by the Air Defence
Command of the Pakistan Army using Anza-II SAMs after the IAF jets had violated
Pakistan`s airspace in the Jammu & Kashmir region. The wreckage of both the Indian
aircraft fell 10-12 kilometres inside Pakistani territory near Hamzi Ghund. One Indian pilot,
Flt. Lt. K. Nachiketa, was captured whereas the other pilot, Sqn. Ldr. Ajay Ahuja, was
killed. Sqn. Ldr. Ahuja`s body was returned to India with full military honours and Flt. Lt.
Nachiketa was released shortly afterwards.
#60 Posted by anarayan on July 10, 2001 5:20:23 pm
ylh,
(1)
``Even in 1971 according to Chuck Yeager...``,
Chuck Yeager, being the American advisor to the PAF in 1971, is obviously not a neutral party. It was his job to see that the PAF did well. Can we expect his comments to be fair ?
Can you please quote the portions in his biography which tell about Indian jets shooting up everything in sight in Pak forward airfields so much that they became almost unusable.
And please, please...can you also mention the delightful portion where the IAF gave him a special present to remember them as along as he lives.
(2)
``I am yet to read of any significant role of the Indian Air Force in Kargil.``
Mantho Dhalo (NLI base camp). 150 killed in night bombing raid.
(1)
``Even in 1971 according to Chuck Yeager...``,
Chuck Yeager, being the American advisor to the PAF in 1971, is obviously not a neutral party. It was his job to see that the PAF did well. Can we expect his comments to be fair ?
Can you please quote the portions in his biography which tell about Indian jets shooting up everything in sight in Pak forward airfields so much that they became almost unusable.
And please, please...can you also mention the delightful portion where the IAF gave him a special present to remember them as along as he lives.
(2)
``I am yet to read of any significant role of the Indian Air Force in Kargil.``
Mantho Dhalo (NLI base camp). 150 killed in night bombing raid.
#61 Posted by ps on July 10, 2001 5:20:23 pm
Yasser saa`b(#50 etc.),
Ji aapki hawai fauj kay to Masha allah kya kahane. Aap ki dhaak to duniya bhar meiN hai, yeh baat to aapkay Yegar saa`b kai baar kah chukay heiN. Aur yahaN par bahaut saaray logoN ko AmreekiyoN nay bhi yahi kaha hai. Ham to ji bas yuheeN thoda sa patang kabootar uda letay haiN. Hamra aapka kya muquabla? Aap to ji, bekar mein apna time jaya kar rahe ho, ham logoN say bahas karkay. Ham ganwar logoN ki samajh meiN aapki baDi-baDi batayN itni asani say nahiN aayegi ji.
Agar mujhay theek say yaad ho to yeh Yegar saa`b
wahi haiN jo aapki hawai fauj ko train kartay thay. (Eisa shayad aapnay hi kaha tha, agar nahiN kaha ho to bhai hamara sorry, jaisa kay aap jaantay hi haiN ki ham logoN ki to aadat hai jhooth bolanay ki). The last time you quoted Yegar as having said ``WE kicked Indian a$$es...``.
This time it is ``Pakistanees kicked...``. Ji mere kahanay ka matlab yeh hai ki Yegar aapka apna banda hai. Jo kah day sahi hai. Thoda sa exaggerate kar gaya, jaisa ki aapnay farmaya.
Waisay, Manoj bhai kay safed jhooth nay aapko sadden kar diya, iska hameN kaafi dard hai.
Eik aur baat hamanay dekhi saa`b ki aap bahaut saari kitabeN paDatay ho. Saray authors jo ki aap
quote kartay ho baDe impartial haiN ji. Somehow they always end up prooving your point of view. Which is, showing that how your institutions are
great and how you guys have been most tolerant etc. Pata nahiN kyoN, hameN aapk kitaaboN ka collection kaafi selective lagta hai, bura mat manana ji, eisay hi eik kh`yal aaya to bol diya.
Aapkay kai mureedoN meiN say eik.
ps
Ji aapki hawai fauj kay to Masha allah kya kahane. Aap ki dhaak to duniya bhar meiN hai, yeh baat to aapkay Yegar saa`b kai baar kah chukay heiN. Aur yahaN par bahaut saaray logoN ko AmreekiyoN nay bhi yahi kaha hai. Ham to ji bas yuheeN thoda sa patang kabootar uda letay haiN. Hamra aapka kya muquabla? Aap to ji, bekar mein apna time jaya kar rahe ho, ham logoN say bahas karkay. Ham ganwar logoN ki samajh meiN aapki baDi-baDi batayN itni asani say nahiN aayegi ji.
Agar mujhay theek say yaad ho to yeh Yegar saa`b
wahi haiN jo aapki hawai fauj ko train kartay thay. (Eisa shayad aapnay hi kaha tha, agar nahiN kaha ho to bhai hamara sorry, jaisa kay aap jaantay hi haiN ki ham logoN ki to aadat hai jhooth bolanay ki). The last time you quoted Yegar as having said ``WE kicked Indian a$$es...``.
This time it is ``Pakistanees kicked...``. Ji mere kahanay ka matlab yeh hai ki Yegar aapka apna banda hai. Jo kah day sahi hai. Thoda sa exaggerate kar gaya, jaisa ki aapnay farmaya.
Waisay, Manoj bhai kay safed jhooth nay aapko sadden kar diya, iska hameN kaafi dard hai.
Eik aur baat hamanay dekhi saa`b ki aap bahaut saari kitabeN paDatay ho. Saray authors jo ki aap
quote kartay ho baDe impartial haiN ji. Somehow they always end up prooving your point of view. Which is, showing that how your institutions are
great and how you guys have been most tolerant etc. Pata nahiN kyoN, hameN aapk kitaaboN ka collection kaafi selective lagta hai, bura mat manana ji, eisay hi eik kh`yal aaya to bol diya.
Aapkay kai mureedoN meiN say eik.
ps
#62 Posted by nehru on July 10, 2001 5:20:23 pm
ROmair:
u gif me plaise, I give you thankhs haa... but i tell you i not gifen India IIT i gif india manpower to get IIT. Make babiss I thell them they lisen. Manpower se?
but i take to heart your love for me.
Narain kumar
u gif me plaise, I give you thankhs haa... but i tell you i not gifen India IIT i gif india manpower to get IIT. Make babiss I thell them they lisen. Manpower se?
but i take to heart your love for me.
Narain kumar
#63 Posted by aicha on July 10, 2001 5:20:23 pm
summit75
``Dont know which force from which country is more superior but our boys won hands down in the looks department! at least from the girls perspective``
now how can we just take your word for it? Pls put up the evidence (photographs) asap on the web so one can have a dekkho and pass a verdict for oneself - from a girls persp : ) !
aicha
``Dont know which force from which country is more superior but our boys won hands down in the looks department! at least from the girls perspective``
now how can we just take your word for it? Pls put up the evidence (photographs) asap on the web so one can have a dekkho and pass a verdict for oneself - from a girls persp : ) !
aicha
#64 Posted by Aisha_Sarwari on July 10, 2001 5:20:23 pm
Bhartiya:
You have nerves of steal, impenetrable when it comes to shame, that you can still hand around after Reply #: 34
Aisha Sarwari
You have nerves of steal, impenetrable when it comes to shame, that you can still hand around after Reply #: 34
Aisha Sarwari
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