Group Captain Cecil Chaudhry, SJ

Cecil Chaudhry is a legend in the flying circles of the PAF. He, alongwith the late Wg. Cdr. Middlecoat, are probably the two most decorated Christians in the Pakistan military.

His interview is quite accurate regarding the Pakistan Air Force, i.e. extreme professionalism at the fighting ranks, lack of management skills at the higher ranks. Very little, if any religious discrimination at the lower and middle ranks (this is quite evident from the manner in which he talks about his squadron mates, and the important posts he was assigned to). Religious discrimination at the higher ranks, mostly due to the unwritten rules that have been put into place by the political leaders and Zia in his political capacity, and not by the military itself, due to which religious minorities do not make it past air vice marshall (Zafar Chaudhry, an Ahmedi, did make it the Chief of Air Staff).

From his comments (and I have seen it myself), the Pakistan military is still far more accepting of religious and ethnic minorities than the Pakistan civil society. This is indicated by the important positions Gp. Capt. Cecil was assigned to, like commander CCS and Squadron Commander of a fighter squadron.

Romair:

You mention that the Pakistan military is far more accepting of religious differences as compared to the civil soceity. Would you say that within the services, the Pakistan Air Force and the Navy are more liberal than the Pakistan Army?

The reason I ask is because this belief is widely held in the Indian Armed Forces, that the PN and PAF are `` Guys like us`` and the Pakistan Army are a bunch of Islamic Zealots (Post Zia). Is it possible that the Group Captain`s views towards the services are benign, because it is the Air Force he talks about and not the Army?

Group Captain Chaudhary:

Don`t know if you would be reading this...but it is wonderful to have folks like you amongst us...i read the interview...what you said...and what you said between the lines.. and what you did not say...and i agree with a lot of what you said or did not say...

Wish you a pleasant (allegorical) afternoon, sir.


Feroz:

...am thankful for this recommendation...am saddened a little...for obvious reasons...

...this took me places and times...sqn. ldr f.s. hussain...his stories are legendary...he gave headaches to his us handlers and bitter head aches to the us aces...used to have this picture... must still be in karachi somewhere...with him and ayub at a formal reception...from the photographer`s angle hussain towered over ayub...with his hands behind his back...out of respect for the c-in-c..and nursing a glass...

...cecil did not mention my one time instructor at the karachi aero club out on the university road...flt lt. nazareth...nice guy...was eased out of paf...read the readings wrong and reputedly landed in Kabul instead of Sargodha once...quite some egg on the paf hierarchy:)...but there was no iskander mirza for me when i got my gpl:)...but i still feel honoured receiving the licence from shukria khanum..pakistan`s first lady commercial pilot...

...and he did not mention khalid sattar...air commodore or air vice marshal till a sudden heart attack removed him from the scene...

...thanks again...and be good...this new found freedom is short lived...she will be back in another two weeks..and i have trained agents in lhr who will report any misdeed of yours:)

rgds,

t

Re: Stuka #2

I can`t say what the situation is right now but in the 1980s there was one Christian major general (Daniel Austin) and several Christian (and at least one Parsi) Brigadiers. However, Maj. Gen. Austin was not given a div to command because the unwritten rule, Zia`s rule but not changed by the Chiefs after him, was that no Christian would be made a GOC.

Before Zia, Qadianis were regularly at the GOC level and most officers did not consider them to be really ``non-Muslims.`` I would be quite surprised if the PN is ``liberal,`` although in all fairness I don`t know all that many PN officers, since it is stuffed full of Pathans and most Pathans tend to be more on the conservative side.

As far as the PAF goes, their view is that a PAF seargent is the intellectual equal of an Army Captain, so they do tend to look down upon the Paidal Khans in the PakArmy. Since they attract a better educated officer candidate, PakArmy tends to be the sons of JCOs/NCOs, they are less religious-minded and so more ``liberal.``

Regards.

Assalmlaikum,

This is the kind of thing I`d like to see on Chowk more often. Thank you, Chowk Staff for Publishing this.

Captain Cecil Chaudhry has had what I would describe as quality life. It is great to have people like him in Pakistan.

PAF is such an exciting institution to know and learn about.

The lesson is simple, when we fight as a country we win, when we forfeit our national duties in order to satisfy our lower needs we inevitably loose. Pakistan should not lose now for the mere reason that we have forgotten the promise, ideal and dream upon which we are built. As long as there are people willing to change that, there will be improvement and things will change.

Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari

PS: Mr. Romair, would you please email me at aisha_sarwari@yahoo.com. I have somthing to discuss with you.

Chaudhary looks like a diet version of Amrish Puri.

http://www.defencejournal.com/2001/june/contents-june2001.htm

Talks like him too:

``From that day the IAF, a force five times our size, just seemed to have disappeared from the skies, even their own.``

Hee Hee! This made my day!!!

What a fascinating article! Also, how true.

My late elder brother, an ace IAF fighter pilot himself, used to refer to Cecil Chaudhari in the post 65/71 periods.

Incidentally, why is it that the Pakistani officers at the Indo-Pak border at Wagah are from the Air Force, with Air Force ranks, while the ``other ranks`` are from the Pakistani Rangers?

I read this on another site earlier. It was
moving for me to read about a time and experience of a different Pakistan.
This is another big hint for the Pakistani Nation here.
TOLERANCE will ensure for you the road to
success. Bigotry will NOT.

It is time for Pakistanis to choose.

Ras

Mr. Chaudry,

You make us proud to be Pakistanis! My late father used to talk of you often, and my uncle Zahid, your fellow SJ (C130), does always remember you, as does my mother, Marina and my aunt Salma.

How sad for Pakistan to have men of such calibre, and to not value them!

How sad for Pakistan and Islam, that we have kept ourselves uninformed and silent of the plight of the heroic religious minorites, who did and do champion the cause of Pakistan.

Captain Cecil Chaudhry

u make us pakistanis proud!!! As hobbyty said its sad for Pakistan to have men of such calibre, and to not value them!

Cecil Chaudhury is not just a war hero, he is also obviously a very intelligent person with a great sense of humor (I loved the part about anwar shamim twiddling his thumbs all the way to the top ranks of the air force).

My Uncle was from 8th G.D.P, his picture still hangs in the No. 2 BFT sqdn. I joined much much later, I guess out of boredom...;-). Gp Capt Cecil mentioned late Air Commodore Hatmi, his son, Fawad is my course mate and was my roomate in the academy.

I would read stories about Rafiqqi, Cecil, Alam, and would dream that I was flying formations with them and and would cover the leader in fight...:-) I really did ...:-), oh well, it was a nice read, and yes, in my opinion if it matters, folks like you should have been given your due place, but honestly, don`t feel bad if you did, because history has made a place of you itself...:-)

waheed.

Article on Group Captain Cecil Chaudhry brought back memories of lahore. It makes me proud to have attended St.Anthony`s high school Lahore.

I happened to study with Gp.Cap. Chaudhry`s younger brother Anthony Chaudhry`s two sons, Keith

Chaudhry and I forgot his elder brother`s name who was a year older and went on to join Pakistan Military Academy only to leave it later, I wonder if it was due to religious discrimination he faced there?

Gp.Cap. Chaudhry`s younger brother Anthony Chaudhry was also in P.A.F and flew a helicopter and ironically he was the one who went on the rescue mission to pick up his brother when he got shot down by enemy gun fire and bailed out of his plane.

Names of famous pakistanis who come to my mind randomly when I think back about St.Anothny`s honor roll, having had the proud distinction of having two officers of Pakistan Army who recieved the highest military honror of Nishan-i-Haider attened our school, Namely, Major Shabbir sharif shaheed, Major Aziz Bhatti Shaheed and even Sq.Leader, Sarfraz Rafiqui HJ, who was mentioned in the article was an old Anthonian, I have to agree with the Group Captain that our school has produced one of the finest son`s of Pakistan.

It has the distinction of having under it`s belt not just military honors from Pakistan but also foreign medals like Victoria Cross during world War 2 from Britain awarded to a pilot serving in the Burma theatre.

Interestingly, an old Anthonian even went on to become Air Cheif Marshall for Indian air force after partition.

One of our prime minister was also an old student from St.Anthony`s, the infamous Nawaz S :)to name a few from a long list of famous people

All in all I am glad Gp.Cap Cecil C. is running our school now, after the Irish Father`s left I was unsure of what future held for our school but I am sure it`s in good hands now.

It`s minorties like him and Wing Cmdr.Middlecoat and Sq.Leader Peter C etc. who gave there lives in the line of duty for Pakistan are the people who make us all proud and it`s also sad because we have wondered away from the true democracy that was envisioned by Quaid-i-Azam, rights for all etc.

Only the implementation of these fundamental teachings will be our saving grace in years to come.

P.S. I too remember the Cannings or ``Benders`` as they were called by Father.Donnelly oh the vivid memories of it all takes me back to lahore the city I miss so dearily, I feel so nostalgic!

Stuka #2: ``The reason I ask is because this belief is widely held in the Indian Armed Forces, that the PN and PAF are `` Guys like us`` and the Pakistan Army are a bunch of Islamic Zealots (Post Zia).``

My coursemates are now Majors in the Army, Sqn. Ldrs. in the Air Force and Lt. Cdrs. in the Navy. I left when all of us were Captains, so I am not quite sure what they have been upto, since then. I did however spend about one and a half year on a joint assignment with Army and Navy officers. I was also part of the group that trained jointly with Army, Navy and Air Force as cadets (much like India`s National Defence Academy). Here is my take on their conservatism and liberalism:

If our cadet life is anything to go by, then all I can do is smile when people attempt to portray the Pakistan military as a group of religious zealots. In fact, the one thing those guys could have used was more religion :-) I was probably the more conservative amongst them. What we did in our cadet, Lt. and Capt. days would make my US fraternity brothers blush. This is not anything to be proud of, but it is about as far as one can be from religious extremism.

The Pakistan military at the higher ranks is still mostly British in its traditions. In fact, in many cases its senior members try to to be too British. It was always funny listening to people like Gen. Asif Nawaz, who spoke Urdu with a British accent (at least when he was talking to us lowly Lts.). Gen Zia was an exception to the rule. Since most civilians have very little understanding of the Army, they assume the whole military to be like Zia. However if you look at the COASs before and after Zia, all of them were quite Westernized. The last thing Musharraf, Karamat, Janjua and Ayub can be called are Islamic zealots.

I am not quite sure what the situation is now. I have heard that at the lower ranks, the Army is now becoming more and more conservative. This is probably the case, since Pakistan as a society is becoming more and more conservative. However, the Pakistan military academies operate completely on British lines, so I cannot see them producing zealots. The PAF and the Navy are probably less conservative than the Army. Probably because the PAF has a much higher educational level, and the Navy lives almost completely in Karachi. All the Navy guys I remember seemed to be mostly fun-loving Karachiites (Muhahirs, Pathans, Punjabis from Karachi), more interested in business than anything else.

My guess would be that the Pakistan military (all branches) are still mostly British in their lifestyle, from the rank of Maj. Gen. and above, with a few exceptions like retd. Gen. Javed Nasir (who used to be a notorious party animal in his younger Army days, until he became a born again Mujahid, from what I have heard). From Brigadier down to Major, it is close to the right combination of religion and Western stuff. From Captain and below, I don`t really know, since that is after my time. However, from what I have heard, these ranks in the Army, are becoming quite conservative, though not anywhere close to the zealot level.

One thing I do know is that one of the greatest shocks of my life was the great deal of ethnic rivalry, and religious discrimination I noticed when I transitioned into the Pakistani civilian sector from the military. In the military, we used to joke about it a lot, but never really faced any serious problems. The only thing that counted was the person`s rank.

That is why people like Cecil Chaudhry, Middlecoat (who is still refered to as a shaheed in the PAF circles) etc. are legends in the military flying circles, even amongst the new juniormost officers. How many Christians are considered legends in the Pakistan civilian circles? Not too many that I can think of. One can tell from the Gp. Capts. article, due to his being a religious minority, he still feels far more comfortable and respected within his military circle than his civilian circle.

Fuzair:

There is at least one thing in common between the IAF and PAF. The absolute belief in the intellectual superiority of the Air Force vis a vis the Army. The comment about an AF Sgt being the equal of an Army Cap`t, runs true in India as well. By the way, do you guys refer to the Army chaps as Pongos as well?

Here`s to looking back at fond memories of Air Force brats kicking Army brat butt at the Defense Service Officers Institute, Delhi Cantt.

Romair:

Appreciate your detailed explanation. Thanks

Stuka

Fuzair:

There is at least one thing in common between the IAF and PAF. The absolute belief in the intellectual superiority of the Air Force vis a vis the Army. The comment about an AF Sgt being the equal of an Army Cap`t, runs true in India as well. By the way, do you guys refer to the Army chaps as Pongos?

Here`s to looking back at fond memories of Air Force brats kicking Army brat butt at the Defense Service Officers Institute, Delhi Cantt.

Romair:

Appreciate your detailed explanation. Thanks

Stuka

During my PAF College Sargodha days, I had the opportunity of meeting this great hero of ours...

May God bless you, and may he bless Pakistan with many more like you.

Long Live Pakistan!

Long Live Pakistan!

Long Live Pakistan!

No Indians on this board eh? Jal gayee, Barnol Lagayee

`Not just the Christian Community but all the non-Muslim citizens are fighting for their rights as guaranteed by the Founder. We are totally disillusioned by what is happening to Pakistan. We created Pakistan, we are developing Pakistan, we

fought gallantly for the defence of Pakistan against external enemies and now we are fighting against the internal enemies who are trying their utmost to destroy Pakistan.`

Why is it that we have denied these brave souls their role in Pakistan? and why is it that fools like Jamaat e Islami and the Mullahs who were fighting tooth and nail against Pakistan are now the chachas of Pakistan.

Let us join hands, all Pakistanis together, and let us rid Pakistan of the bias, sectarianism and fundamentalism!

Long Live Pakistan!

Some write-ups on the Christians, who received high honors, in the PAF:

(Eric Hall):http://www.pafmuseum.com.pk/contents/ga65gahall.htm

(Mervyn MiddleCoat 65): http://www.pafmuseum.com.pk/contents/ga65middlecoat.htm

(Mervyn MiddleCoat 71): http://www.pafmuseum.com.pk/contents/sh71midcoat.htm

(Peter Christy): http://www.pafmuseum.com.pk/contents/sh71peterchristy.htm

(Cecil Chaudhry): On 6th September, 1965, Flight Lieutenant Cecil Chaudhry was No. 2 in a fligth of 3 F-86 aircraft led by Squadron Leader Rafiqui. Their target was Halwara airfield of the Indian Air Force. This formation of 3 F-86s was intercepted by 10 Hunter aircraft of the Indian Air Force. During the engagement, the leader`s guns stopped firing and he handed over the lead to Flight Lieutenant Cecil Chaudhry, who very ably and aggressively continued the fight against heavy odds. About 60 miles inside enemy territory, he destroyed two enemy Hunter aircraft with his gun attack. His courage and professional ability in such adverse circumstances was outstanding and he successfully managed to return to base after having lost contact with other members of the formation. On 15th September, 1965, in spite of insufficient information from Ground Radar, Flight Lieutenant Cecil Chaudhry pursued his attack aggressively on enemy bombers and chased them 150 miles from his base. During the engagement, he destroyed one enemy Canberra bomber.The services rendered by him were beyond the call of normal duty and contributed a significant share towards Pakistan Air Force achieving air superiority. For these acts of courage, dedication and professional ability, Flight Lieutenant Cecil Chaudhry was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat.

I would be interested in knowing whether the following scares anyone in India? While it is common for everyday folk to attempt to threaten the places of worship of other religions, it takes on a whole new level, when the ruling party makes such a claim. For example, I would get very wary, if Musharraf were to get up today, and state at a corps commanders meeting that Pakistan needs to tear down a temple. Even Fazl-ur-Rahman doesn`t make such statements.

This is not an attempt to get into a, ``we are better than you,`` contest (to avoid that, lets assume from the get-go that Indians are better and more civilized than Pakistanis). However, I am interested in why Indians seem so concerned about religious extremism in Pakistan, but not too concerned about the changes in their own society (which will have far larger negative and violent consequences, in my opinion).

``Back to Ayodhya

At a Special Session, the BJP declares that it is poised to forge ahead with its own agenda, despite the compulsions of coalition politics, reports Venkat Parsa

New Delhi, October 21

The BJP adopted an important resolution, which brought on board both the Ayodhya issue and the party decision to go nuclear......

The BJP resolution signalled the party`s resolve to press ahead with a paradigm shift in the national policy-framework. Long-cherished policies like secularism and nuclear disarmament get short thrift......

Significantly, the BJP National Council raked up the Ayodhya issue. Union Home Minister L K Advani spoke highly of BJP`s role in leading the Ayodhya agitation. The BJP National Council adopted a resolution on the occasion, justifying the Ayodhya agitation and eulogising its role in shaping the party`s future......

Union Home Minister L K Advani was highly vocal on the Ram Temple Card and defended the decision of the ruling BJP to give an agitational thrust to the Ramjanmabhoomi issue, as part of the program of cultural nationalism. But for the Ayodhya agitation, Advani said, the BJP would not have grown to its present position.....(Tehelka.com... http://www.tehelka.com/channels/currentaffairs/2001/oct/21/ca102101jubilee.htm)

A few thousand unemployed youth burning American flags, behind Fazl-ur-Rahman is one thing. The Prime and senior ministers of an elected govt. making the above statements, in a country with 140 million Muslims is another. Since I do not live in India, I am not too effected by the social changes in India, but just for educational purposes, would like to know whether the above scares anyone in India?

Any objective comments from Indians (specially Indian Muslims) will be appreciated.

Re: B_M #18

You have posted some tripe thats probably not worth replying to but I thought I`d do it anyway, what the heck.

You do have a point about the general level of education (scientific or otherwise) in India versus that in Pakistan but that is also an irrelevant one. The PAF still gets the cream of the crop in Pakistan (at least the GDP cadets are and the selection criteria and washout rate is amazingly high) and once the minimum of scientific /technical skill criteria is met (easy enough for the PAF), the distinguishing characteristic of a good fighter pilot is amazing reflexes and hand-eye coordination, and an insanely aggressive spirit. No one has ever said that the PAF fighter pilots have ever been outflown or outfought by anyone, much less Indians. The IAF has a severe recruitment and morale problem from what I`ve read in Indian newspapers and websites.

The PAF`s problem is inadequate funds and parts/equipment embargo and lousy General Staff and long term planning (especially at the interservices level), not poorly trained pilots. In the 1960s, the PAF was the only non-NATO airforce to fly the F-104 Starfighter (a less than stellar fighter but one that was an absolute b *tch to fly--go find out why the Luftwaffe called it the Witwemacher) and used to hold the record for the largest loop-the-loop demonstration--16 F-86 Sabres in a tight formation. Similarly, the first Pakistani pilot to convert to F-16s did so in half the USAF conversion time. Other PAF pilots to convert to the F16s did as well on them as any USAF pilot. PAF pilots are also the only ones to have shot down, in air-to-air combat, IDF pilots--something not managed by Soviet Air Force pilots when they went up against the Israelis in 1970.

Any objective analysis of the PAF vs. IAF combat performance certainly does not hold up your `analysis.` I suggest you go look up the Bharatrakshak website if you don`t trust Cecil Chaudhury`s recollections.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Re: Stuka

I think I`ve heard PAF people use pongos, which I presume is RAF/RIAF slang. Funnily enough, the PMA Kakul cadets used to sneer at PAF Risalpur cadets for being wimps since they wouldn`t box--too afraid of hurting their delicate little noses and then being rejected from flight training. I knew some PAF pilots who were at the Mona Remount Depot on a special `wimps` Equitation course since the PAF was then acquiring horses and a polo team or two and we used to laugh at how delicate, refined and ladylike they were, ;-). We were especially impressed by the graceful way they always made sure to extend the pinky while sipping their tea. One of the Army officers on course tried to find some sidesaddles for the pilots but couldn`t scare one up.

Regards.

Ylh:

Puttar, I am Indian. Jal gayee?? Kyon?? Jalney dee kee gal kitti hai twaadey Grp Capt ney?? I thoroughly enjoyed reading the article, and the subsequent interactions.

Some interesting figures :

India

Military manpower: 161,223,332

Defence expenditure: $10.05bn

2.5% of GDP

Pakistan

Military manpower: 21,206, 148

Defence expenditure: $2.43bn

3.9% of GDP

Source: CIA Factbook

Re: bhartiya musalman

Why don`t you cool down your rhetoric? Why are you baiting others to respond to you?

Ref B_M:

I have a friend(american) who`s father is an F-15 instructor in Saudia. He says that the Paki pilots flying in Saudia are some of the best he has seen (what he has to say about Saudi pilots is unprintable :-)

My conclusion is that the PAF still gets the cream of Pakistani youth to join up and has a effective training regimen. Now they may have problems with procurement etc but that is a different story.

I think one of the recruiting selling points the PAF uses must be its ability to offer secondments to UAE/Saudia (any other?) with the ability to make a few $`s. Is this true?(Can some of the PAF guru`s here enlighten me?)

caveat: I am no great expert on Airforces (just an enthusiast) and have no family (save a distant cousin) / friends in the IAF from whom I can get some balancing opinion.

Ref Fuzair:

``No one has ever said that the PAF fighter pilots have ever been outflown or outfought by anyone, much less Indians. The IAF has a severe recruitment and morale problem from what I`ve read in Indian newspapers and websites.``

lets not go overboard here :-)

Ref Bharatiya Mussulman:

Boss, Intelligence should not be sacrficed at the altar of patriotism. Take it from someone whose whole family was connected to the IAF, we did not dominate the skies in 1965. We lost a lot of aircraft on the ground due to pre-emptive attacks by the PAF. It was on the ground that the Indian Army made gains, and Pakistan had to switch from liberating Kashmir to ``Defence of Pakistan``, which they celebrate till date. A similar point is also made by Air Marshal Asghar Khan, in one of his books. (I don`t remember the title to be honest)

In 1971, the IAF enjoyed complete domination of the Eastern Wing from the outset of hostilities. According to the Indian version of history, this dominance also carried over to the Western wing after a few days. You can check Bharatrakshak.com for a detailed version.

By the way, I am a Punjabi, albeit Indian. Are you implying that my ethnicity somehow makes me dumb??

bharatya_musalman: #18: ``Flying a sophisticated aircraft has a lot to do with scientific and engineering aptitude and intelligence``

Actually, flying fighters has very little to do with scientific and engineering aptitude and intelligence. Many of the great Pakistani fighter pilots I know had a great deal of difficulty passing their F.Sc. and B.Sc. exams. Most fighter pilots in Pakistan probably could not get into an engineering or medical college in Pakistan (no exageration). And vice versa, I know way too many successful engineers who washed out from flying. I am sure the situation is the same in the IAF, and any other AFs. There is no direct corelation between scientific intelligence aptitude and fighter flying aptitude, i.e. good scientists do not necessarily make good fighter pilots, and good fighter pilots do not necessary make good scientists.

I doubt Gp. Capt. Cecil Chaudhry had any kind of an advanced degree while he was flying. Chuck Yeager was one of the greatest fighter pilots of all time. He did not have a college degree.

In fact, my experience has been that fighter flying has a lot more to do with psycho-motor skills, medical and physical fitness, quick decision making skills, fearlessness, self-confidence, and ability to perform under pressure. These are qualities found more in sportsmen than in scientists. That is why there is probably a greater corelation between sports and fighter flying, then science and fighter flying. I`ve met a lot of figher pilots who were good squash and hockey players, but were extremely scared of calculus and computer programming.

``how many IITs does Pakistan have?``

Pakistan cannot have any IITs, because the, ``I`` in IIT stands for Indian. Pakistan could have PITs, but not IITs.

``how many Pak world famous entrepreneurs are there in Silicon Valley? ``

My guess would be that the number of famous Pakistani entreprenuers in Silicon Valley is around 1/10 to that of the famous Indian entrepreneurs. The total number of Pakistani software professionals in Silicon Valley is around 1/10 to that of Indians. So, ratio wise, it is the same.

(sidenote: I have always found it quite interesting how possessive Indians are of the successful Indian IT entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley. I have met quite a few of these successful Indian IT entrepreneurs, and have found them to be quite humble. They are not possessive at all of their success and the fact they are Indian. Yet Indians living in India seem very possessive of them. An interesting contradiction).

``they may get F17s but have no clue how to fly them``

There is no aircraft called the F-17. There was a prototype built decades ago by Northrop (I think) called the F-17. But it lost out in the trials to the F-16s, and was thus never put into production.

As far as flying F-16s goes: the PAF for a long time had the best flight safety record of any country flying the F-16, in the world (this includes, amongst other countries, the USA and the NATO countries that are flying these aircraft).

I think you are letting the comments of the Gp. Capt. regarding IAF vs PAF, get to you. You should remember that he is a proud soldier, and that too a fighter pilot. And proud soldiers will always say they are the best (in the case of PAF vs. IAF, there is quite a bit of truth to it:-)).

The PAF around 1965 was operating at first-world levels. Hence the question isn`t that the IAF was bad; it probably wasn`t. The PAF was just too good. It was maintaining and operating mach 2 aircraft even before European Air Forces started flying them. The reason for this, as pointed out by Cecil Chaudhry, is Air Marshall Asghar Khan (he would make a good Prime Minister, I am telling you).

Asghar Khan became COAS at the age of 36. He was a visionary and decades ahead of his time. The technical aircraft and engineering and radar systems, technical and staff training institutions, traditions etc. that he put in place still form the backbone of the PAF. He was able to put together a first world technolgoically advanced Air Force in a third world country; quite an outstanding achievement. Due to this, PAF professionals were in huge demand as instructors in the Middle East, for decades. Because of the procedures Asghar Khan put in place, the PAF is still operationally strong, despite the many mediocre Chiefs it has had (I do not agree with Cecil Chaudhry`s high opinions regarding the Chiefs. I have found all of them, after Nur Khan, to be average or below average). Had their been no Asghar Khan (and perhaps Nur Khan), the PAF would have been as mediocre as any third world air force, in my opinion.

Fuzair is absolutely right about the requirements for being an ace pilot. I`ve personally had the pleasure of knowing quite a few of those, specially the ones that were part of elite squads taking the delivery of F-16s and Cobra gunships in the 80s. Bhartya Musalman probably is a great car-mechanic(maybe there are courses for that in the IITs now). Unfortunately he takes a tonga to work.

later

-sac

Re: Bharitya M

A while ago, I had the opportunity to talk with Randy ``Duke`` Cunningham. Duke was an ace in the Vietnam war and in our discussions he mentioned that that to be a great fighter pilot you need two basic things.

One - situational awaress. You must be aware of what is happening around you at all times and also, you must know what the other guy is going to think and do in a given situation.

Two - you must be aggressive, because the first one to start air combat maneverings (dog fights) will end it by having the incentive and instincts rather than the flight performance of the aircraft determines the outcome.

I have known a lot of American USAF officers and have had a quite a few kegs of beer with them. One of the USAF ``Eagle`` driver told that he had served with Pakistanis in Saudia Arabia and he said the only difference between USAF and PAF the weapons platforms. According to him, PAF had an edge over the IAF, because IAF trained according to the Soviet air force doctrine; intercepts from ground control, fly race track patterns, take off and land and lacked, what he termed as ``situational realism``.

He also said that PAF has slight edge over the USAF in the sense that PAF trains its pilots for ACMs and whereas, USAF relies on its missles and does not do too well in cases of close combat. PAF is similar in this sense to the Israeli Air Force, which also believes that it is the pilot that matters in the end, because the pilot with the most experience and agressiveness will win regardless of his nationality.

Also, PAF trains for combat against a superior force and relys on its training more than it does on the performance of its weapons systems and that training pays off in the end.

Ciao

This PAF story reminds me of a Squadron Leader/WC Rahat Mujeeb (Siddiqui) of Jhang.

May his soul rest in peace.

Ameen.

Ras

Excellent interview of a Patriot.

Yaseer, calm down and don`t get excited. Indians don`t jalo as far as Pakistan is concerned. It was Field Marshall Maneckshaw who wrote to Pak army Chief about the bravery of a Captain Malik in I guess 1971 war. These acts come from confident people and not those who jalo.

Moreover, in this interview, Gp Captain Choudhary has made very very positive statements about India`s secularism and the fact that the situation is improving in India. You must have realised that IT IS BECAUSE OF DEMOCRACY as well as inherent nature of those detested people belonging to majority community of India.

Latest of course is that Adnan Sami is trying to get Indian citizenship. Read the news:-

From THE PIONEER

Top pop stars rap Advani`s door

North Block is going Ta.ra.ra.ra these days. Two top Hindi pop singers have approached Union Home Minister LK Advani for obvious reasons. While pop star Daler Mehndi has sought security cover from Mr Advani, Pakistan`s new music sensation Adnan Sami has pleaded for Indian citizenship.Clad in blue denims and sporting a pink turban, Daler Mehndi walked into Mr Advani`s North Block office here on Monday evening. Assisted by former Delhi Chief Minister Sahib Singh Verma, the Bhangra King reportedly told the Home Minister that he faces serious threat from Muslim fundamentalists. ``We know that Mr Mehndi had earlier been threatened by Dawood Ibrahim. We will look into the matter,`` said an MHA official.

In his two page letter, Mr Mehndi has revealed that since the release of his new album, he has been receiving threat calls from members of a particular community.





The letter, personally handed over to the Home Minister by Daler, mentions that Muslim fundamentalists who are gunning for him have raised serious objections to one of the songs in the album.

According to sources Daler told Mr Advani that as he had been earlier attacked by a gang in 1999, he takes precaution while travelling across the country to perform shows. ``I will be obliged if I am given an adequate security cover following threats given by fundamentalist groups,`` Daler urged in his letter.

The another big star of the music channels, Adnan Sami also approached the Home Minister recently. Sources said that during Mr Advani`s visit to Dubai last week, Adnan spoke to the BJP leader at length. Adnan whose superhit songs ``Lift Kara De`` and ``Kabhi To Nazar Milao`` have created new records, pleaded for an Indian citizenship. Sources said that Adnan who has a contract with an Indian music company wants to shift to Mumbai.

``He is neither comfortable in England nor Canada. In Pakistan he has problems with the jehadi leaders for his close association with India. A reason why he has sought Indian citizenship,`` said an official.

Bhartiya

`Cecil Chaudhri is a very confused human being`

And this from the most confused person on this board... for your information, Pakistani pilots have been recognized as the world`s best,... Jane Defence Weekly rated Pakistan Air force as one fo the best in the world ... and Indian Air Force.. well lets not talk about Indian Air Force.Shammi, dont you dare reprimand Bhartiya... or he will call you an Arab Wannabe too... does it matter that you are not even a Pakistani?

Bhartiya Musalman is most bigoted fundamentalist uneducated and extremely illiterate fool yet!

Cecil didnot say anything like India is more tolerant .... dont hallucinate!

Here are the reposts of my posts on Anthony`s board... that Bhartiya chose to ignore:

Bhartiya Musalman

Dont beat yourself so much.... there is a long list of rejected Indian Muslim Suitors from what I understand when it comes to Aisha Sarwari. Even if you had not been uneducated, biogted, fundamentalist, confused, unsophisticated, illiterate and Ugly like you are , your mission (creation of a pan islamic khilafat and the greater state of India) can never be same as Aisha`s whose goal from what I know is a modern Progressive strong and Sovereign Pakistan.

Waisay, you keep harping about Pakistan being a failed state... when educated intellectuals say it there are reasons to it? Why are you saying it? Because your ami abu (pita ji mata ji) said it? You keep talking of a common South Asian Muslim culture and then you declare two nation theory is false ... when culture was the basic premise of TNT.

So tell me why should Pakistan be dissolved?

1) Is it the Economy? Because till the 1990s we outperformed India, and until recently atleast we had a greater GDP per capita than India... If we are in a bad patch for 10 years, my training in Economics tells me that its not that big of a deal because did they dissolve US in the great depression when US was performing much worse than Pakistan? Latin American Countries have been in much worse crisis than Pakistan for decades with spiralling super duper inflations.... I havent heard of Mexico, or Argentina, or Chile, or Equador being dissolved? Mexico even has US next to it.... which is much more developed than India can ever be.

2) Is it the poverty? Because one visit will show you that Pakistan does not have slums like Calcutta... even in the heaviest populated city like Karachi which stands with in top 15 in the world. If Pakistan was a failed state how did Karachi a fishertown of 55 000 become a metropolitan of 15 million people in just 53 years? How did Lahore gets so developed? How did Pakistanis create a city out of scratch which is one of the most beautiful cities in the world ? Islamabad? ( and on a side noteHow come atleast one of the Pakistan`s airports, Quaid e Azam International Karachi, is voted as one of the most beautiful in the world?)

3) Is it the ethnic tension ? Because whereas Pakistan has at most 3 semi active ethnic movements, India has 17 indigenous independence Movements from what I know, and I can atleast name 5 different myself, but you wont hear from Yasser Hamdani that India should be dissolved... because I simply dont care.

4) Is it because Pakistan cant keep up with India`s defence expenditure, and Pakistan cant make ICBMs, well you`ve got me on that one ... but I hardly doubt Pakistan would be dissolved for that reason or many sane Indians (unlike yourself) would want it dissolved for that reason.

5) Is it because you are a confused Pan-Islamist Indian Muslim who wants to devise stupid plans to dissolve Pakistan just so that you can face your rejection from Aisha Sarwari, ... well dream on, because Pakistan will go on because it is a nation and it will live as a nation and die as a nation.

Long Live Pakistan .. Pakistan will live on till eternity INSHALLAH!

And to borrow from Ataturk`s famous Turk Nationalist statement ... `Lucky are those who can call themselves Pakistanis`.

Bhartiya Musalman 112

Before I can begin to comment on the excrement that you have splashed on this board, I must say, that every time I think we cant go any lower, we hit a new low. Your entry on chowk will indeed be classified as the lowest of the low chowk has ever witnessed.

It is my belief in humanity that makes me believe that no one, and I repeat no one can be as stupid as to make comments like the one you made in 112. Hence it is only logical to believe that you are going through a severe trauma of some sort to your overinflated ego.

It doesnot serve to assume. Anthony Aschettino and myself, we dont frequent the mosque, and secondly bigoted as Mosque Mullahs maybe, they dont bash Hinduism in the Mosques, though that maybe the case with Mosques in India. Secondly we are not wahabis. My mother is a shia for example... and Anthony`s parents are devout catholics. I am a simple Muslim, and a Pakistani first second and last.

I thank you for your invitation to join your imaginary organization. However, I cannot accept your invitation, because I dont have time to play with little kids.

Finally you say ``` I`ll treat you as a brother if you accept the Prophet (PBUH) and Allah)``. How ridiculous is that? as ridiculous as the caste system.``

On my board you wrote (Post 367)

`Firstly, you are my Bhai as I am a devout Muslim and believe in the Brotherhood of Islam.`

Kindly explain this disparity. Now see the problem you have posed? On one hand you are using `brotherhood of Islam` to which I said that I renounce the brotherhood of Islam... on the other hand you are talking of how ridiculous that concept is... Which one is it?

It is increasingly clear to me that you are a product of the confused Indian Educational system which confuses people by muddling the definitions of secular and multicultural.

So, your Ami (mata ji) proposed to Aisha on your behalf and she said no! Why do you have to take it out on Pakistan? Did it occur to you that it might be because you demonstrate very little ability to be mature, or sensible? And now you are forming imaginary organizations (Deen e Ilahi Again) to get back at her?

-YLH

PAKISTAN WILL LIVE ON TILL ETERNITY!

For Bhartiya Musalman...

Chuck Yeager wrote in his book

`And the Pakistanis kicked Indian a$$es in the sky`

Hope you will read his book... maybe you will get a little more educated then you are..

FerozeK,

How dare you protect the PAF .. now brace yourself for being called `Arab Wannabe` by Bhartiya Musalman!

-YLH

Romair

`There is no aircraft called the F-17. There was a prototype built decades ago by Northrop (I think) called the F-17. But it lost out in the trials to the F-16s, and was thus never put into production. `

You are absolutely right... the same prototype was then perfected and made into F18 Hornet... In any event just goes to show how educated and enlightened Bhartiya really is.

People like Bhartiya give India a bad name with their lack of knowledge coupled with their enormous arrogance!

Bhartiya

`I can never forget that true patriotism was inculcated in us as students by our Principal, Brother Henderson, an Irish missionary, as early as in 1948. He gave all the students one week in which to learn to recite our national anthem at the cost of caning, six “benders” if we failed to do so. He ensured a follow up and used the cane freely. Our class teachers were told to spare one period a day to tell us about the reasons for Pakistan. At home my parents, especially my father, told us stories of how the Quaid stood his ground in giving us all a homeland where we will be able to live with honour and dignity. It was at that stage that, as a little boy of 7 studying in first standard that I developed an intense love for this beautiful country.`

I suppose Brother Henderson, Cecil`s Father and Cecil`s teachers.. all of them were Arab slaves right?

-YLH

Shammi, Stuka etc,

Thankyou for bringing some balance to this board... atleast one does not go away with the impression that everyone in India is as stupid and uneducated as Bhartiya Musalman!

-YLH

Reply #: 18 bhartiya musalman

``On the one hand in the interview he recognizes clearly that Pakistan is well on its way to becoming a failed State.``

First, I must ask the definition of a failed state, and then I must ask you why you jump between deciding that Pakistan is indeed a failed state and that it is well on its way (i.e. a failing state).

``As to 1965 and 1971 I am not going to grace the Christian Jehadi Marhal`s comments with an answer..all objective sources know how well the IAF performed compared to the PAF. However, one thing the Air Marshal needs to learn...in War, ultimately REsults matter.``

Speaking from an objective point of view, the 1965 war is considered in EVERY military circle worth its salt to have been a decisive victory for Pakistan at least as far as the Air War is concerned. Likewise, many Pakistanis are willing to accept that the 1971 war ended in defeat for the most part, but on the other hand again the PAF was regarded as having outperformed the IAF in almost every category. In fact, the PAF was the major reason that India was not able to subjugate East Pakistan until the very end of the war, and moreso if it were not for the PAF Lahore may well have fallen to the Indian Army, but because they could not achieve air superiority, the Indian Army could not advance in the West the way she wanted.

Bhartiya Musalman, I would love to have intellectual discourse here, but you seem disinterested in it. You always start out with your whole ``Pakistan is a failed state ect ect...`` and then about how India is more tolerant and has more intelligent people. You have yet to define most of the accusations against Pakistan, the ``failed state`` concept being the most important, and you refuse to see a destabilised Pakistan as a danger to India. Let me tell you, Pakistan may have played a role in helping to develop the Taleban as far as the madrasas in the 1980s, but as of now she is the only security India has against them. Even the semblence of secularism in Pakistan is enough to stop the Talebani wannabes from taking power, and if India had Afghanistan for a neighbor she would be broken in less than a decade... just ask the Soviets how easy it is to deal with the Deobandis in full force :)

Also, why do you refer to me as a ``Wahabbi`` and YLH (among others) as Arab Wannabes? I know YLH, and let me tell you: he is no Arab Wannabe. Far from it. In fact, he is all for distinguishing Pakistan from the Arab culture and the Islam of Pakistan from the Islam of Wahabbism. Just because people support Pakistan does not make them religious fundamentalists just as a Hindu who supports India is not neccesarily a fundamentalist. You need to stop lumping everyone into these cute categories and deal with each one of us as we present ourselves... that is how we deal with you (at least it`s how I deal with you). You do not do much justice for our concepts of Indian Muslims, but for their sake I will go on believing that not all of them think as you and want Pakistan so badly eliminated.

KH

:)

As a IAF officers son, I wish cecil all the best.

To give the readers view about IAF/PAF in 1965/71/ and since.

IAF in 1965 was a force in a state of flux. The trauma of 1962 chinese debacle resulted in the indian armed forces going in a for expansion. In 1962-65 IAF was expanding and recruiting new pilots. PAf in comparison was technologically a superior force in terms of a/c & espicially a ground based combat radar system courtset the Yankees. It will be instructive to understand that about 1/3 of the IAF comprised of Vampire, Ourangans which were really obsolete aircrafts in face of starfighters etc of PAF. 4 vampires of IAF were shot down in chambh during the opening days of the war and the almost 1/3 of the IAf comprising of vampires, ourangans was held back from combat. so while it is easy for Cecil to say that they were facing a numrically superior force, the numbers participating in combat were about even. Inspite of the so called claims of PAF, who was in the drivers seat at the end of 1965 hostilities is known to everybody.

1971 was a different story. this time the indians were both numerically superior, tactically stronger and technologically better. PAF spent the entire time trying to save its own back side, quite unlike 1965. Karachi, Sui gas fields etc were ablaze due to IAF action. IAF successfully interdicted Pak ground based assests. Indian navy also bombed Karachi and PAF in counter action destroyed its own ships and killed lot of PN men at the karachi harbour. This was attributed to PAF not training with PN and its pilots not being able to identify ships. PAF effort in support of its Army was also considered negligible. According to a article in defencejournal ( a pak publication) PAf in 1971 spent about 70% of its effort in trying to protect itself. Most of the air to air combat took place over Pakistan showing as to which was the the offensive force. In all a very sorry chapter in PAF history. The just retired PAF chief (pervez medhi hassan) was also shot down by IAF gnats over Boyra in Bangladesh and was a POW.

The next skirmish was in Kargil. The way PAF stayed away from combat when its troops :-) were being pounded by IAF is a shame for any force.

There is such a gap between PAF & IAF of 2001 that PAf may not last for more than 5-7 days in the event of full hostilites. This is a fact that PAF officers are willing to concede in private.

Unfortunately Air power is not only about air to air combat. it is about being able to support Army, navy in offensive operations. it is about air lift capabilites. it is about having air to ground interdiction capabilites. In many of these PAF is years behind.

However, inspite of all this PAf is a professional force and is respected by IAf and vice versa. it is only the arm chair generals & air marshals who have a low opinion about each other.

Found this in the Newspost at ``dawn`` today:

`` Desperate

Fighter pilots of Pakistan Air force have always inspired me. I wanted to be a member of the force. Unfortunately, females are not allowed to join the Air Force. Why not us? What do we lack? Why can`t our society accept that if women can be good doctors and engineers why can`t they be allowed to join the armed forces?

mmkloser@hotmail.com``

Ms. Sarwari, you are not alone.

Why aren`t Female fighter pilots acceptable to PAF? Are there not Female air traffic and radar controllers in the PAF, then why deny opportunity to serve - regardless of confession or gender!

i`d like to add my 2 cents worth to this debate.

some of the responses here reminded me of the debates my two friends used to have both fathers were in the airforce and navy respectively. They loved arguing over which cadets were more cuter the Pakistan airforce guys or the pakistan Navy guys. i used to have to side with the airforce cadets. Boy were they CUTE. Unfortunately neither of us girls knew any cadets in person being very young awkward teenagers didnt help but my friends had a collection of photos of official functions which we would love to ponder over. Years later when i was at college in England i remember showing my indian girlfriends (foreign students from india) photographs of those days ( how did some of them end up with me??) and some who had acquaintances in the indian armed forces remarked how much gorgeous the pakistani cadets were.

So there you have it. Dont know which force from which country is more superior but our boys won hands down in the looks department! at least from the girls perspective

Humsab #

For some reason Adnan Sami has found more popularity in India than in Pakistan, just as Chandan Daas has amongst the Pakistani`s and not Indians !

India can have Adnan Sami, in exchange for Chandan Daas !

I find Adnan Sami terribly overated , though i do like his song ``kabhi to nazar milao`` very much !

sa:)

p.s. C.Daas will get a choice of canadian citizenship too, considering the no. of fans he has , in a litle town alone !

This board is predictably drifting towards a modern day version of `kabootar-baazi` with each side trying to prove who is `better`. I feel sick when I think about two countries with a per capita GDP of less than $500/year vying to destroy each other with expensive and slick aerobatic maneouvers over the sweaty backs of 500 million people who live on less than $1/day.

Anyway amongst all this talk of PAF/IAF lets not forget where the real battlefield is today:

http://about.reuters.com/dynamic/india_en_nBOM280350.html

and the Paki`s have yet to show up for the fight!

Manoj,

Have you read Chuck Yeager`s account of the 1971 war? Kindly read it in his biography... and then perhaps you will not utter such fallacies again.

I am yet to read of any significant role of the Indian Air Force in Kargil. If there was indeed pounding by the IAF on the ground troops, I wonder why they held on for so long... says something about Indian Air Force capabilities doesnt it? PAF couldnt be used because Pakistan`s position internationally was that it was not using its troops. If Pakistan Air Force would have come into play, the result of which would be the loss of 20 or 30 Migs to IAF again, it would have escalated the conflict.

As the IAF Pilot`s son, I wish you the best too, in keeping these ideas of self glorification aloft!

Long Live Pakistan

Manoj,

Even in 1971 according to Chuck Yeager, the Pakistan Air Force maintained a Kill ratio of 3 to 1 of our own. That might be an exaggeration on the part of Yeager, but it is an accepted fact that Pakistan Air Force out maneuvered IAF on the Western front.

I am saddened by your blatant need to lie!

-YLH

Anoop: I think sir your days as a bachelor (with or without dates) are now numbered - being in your late twenties, your folks are probably trying to get you hitched as we speak. So time to pay attention to the one who you know will NOT be mistaking you for a brother. Do a good job here (hint: go for the heart and the mind when considering this person, see how her mom and dad treat one another, and forget everything else), and that is all you will ever need.

PS I too have had this frustrating experience in days of youth of being considered a good brother by a couple of classmates who should have known better than that!

There are two interesting aspects of replies and repliers on Chowk. The first is the habit of turning everything into an India-Pakistan argument, instead of an argument based on facts. The second is the inability to ignore offensive comments. Does every offensive comment deserve a reply?

Now to the issue of who has the better fighter pilots and who has the better computer scientists. Considering the fact that the genetic trees of many, if not most, Indians and Pakistanis probably meet at our great....great grandmother level, Indians and Pakistanis should be equally good programmers and pilots. But they are not. Pakistani pilots (even the ones in PIA) have an international reputation, but Pakistani computer scientists do not (Pakisatan has one of the lowest software professional to total population ratios in the world). Indian computer scientists (even the non-IIT ones) have an international reputation, but Indian pilots do not (I think, though I am not 100% sure, the IAF and Air India have one of the poorest flight safety records in the world). It is quite ironic that two third world countries have achieved world-level excellence in two extremely technically challenging fields. But why in such different fields and not the same field? And why not in every technical field, and not just IT and flying?

My answer is Asghar Khan and Nehru. The IAF (or the Pakistan Army and Navy, for that matter), wasn`t lucky enough to have it`s Asghar Khan, in its formative stages. Asghar Khan laid the foundation of some of the best training institutes/academies in the world, in the PAF. I can vouch for that personally. PAF institutes enjoy the same reputation in the international aviation arena that IITs enjoy in the international IT arena, i.e. under-budgeted third world institutes with perhaps the toughest selection criterias in the world, producing world level professionals. For example, CCS (Combat Commander`s School) that Cecil Chaudhry mentions is the PAF equivalent of the US Top Gun. In the US, only a handful of pilots goes thru Top Gun. In the PAF, every single pilot has to clear CCS to get command positions.

Similarly Nehru (our Indian friends can correct me if I am giving credit to the wrong person) set up the IITs. These IITs produced world-level professionals that laid the foundation of the Indian IT success. Pakistan was not lucky enough to have an equivalent of Nehru to set up PITs.

So if Nehru had set up PITs and Asghar Khan had been the first Indian COAS, Indian would be known for its fighter pilots and Pakistan would be known for its software engineers, and not vice-versa. It`s that simple.

I have now spent most of my life with Indian programmers and Pakistani pilots. And I can say with quite a bit of assurance that they are amongst the best in the world in their professions, and their respective reputations are very well earned.

Re: B_M`s babblings

Check out the following site, http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1971War/index71.html, for a complete breakdown of IAF and PAF losses. To sum up, the IAF lost 75 planes total (to ALL causes) during the war while the PAF lost 51 (including 13 destroyed by the PAF itself in Dacca). So if we subtract these `own goals,` its a roughly 2:1 loss ratio.

The IAF lost 18 planes in Air to Air combat (versus 36 to AAA/ground fire and 2 on the ground) while the PAF lost 10 to Air to Air combat (versus 7 to AAA/ground fire and 8 destroyed on the ground). So one way of interpreting this data is that the PAF did outclass the IAF in Air-to-Air combat because its pilots were better trained, more aggressive, whatever, BUT that the PAF did not support the PA while the IAF incurred heavy losses to ground fire since it was supporting ground operations. Contrary to the bilge believed by the ``Victory through Airpower`` crowd and the nonsense spouted by Douhet, THE key role for any airforce, assuming it has achieved air superiority over the enemy, is to support ground forces. This is not glamourous and the Air Force hates it since it clearly makes the Air Force an adjunct to Army operations.

I hate to disappoint you, Yasser, but after the initial (half-a ssed planning and certainly badly executed) strikes on Indian Air Bases (which the Indians were well prepared for), the PAF basically went into stealth mode much of the time. I recall reading somewhere that when the CinC PAF was informed that the IN was steaming towards Karachi and that the PN was requesting airstrikes, his response was something to the effect of ``Let the Navy fight its own battles.``

Ask any PakArmy officer who was having his *ss shot off by the IAF what he thinks of the PAF and you will hear exactly what they thought of the PAF. PAF apologists for the command failures during the war usually mutter some nonsense about ``35% of the manpower was Bengali and we couldn`t fly enough sorties`` or wake up without bed tea or some other nonsense like this but the simple fact of the matter is that ALL three services in the West in 1971 messed up in the execution of the war. Niazi wasn`t the only moron with stars in the Pakistani Armed Forces.

Incidentally, one of the motivating factors behind the attempted coup of 1973 was that many junior officers were disgusted by our own failures in 1971 and wanted the top brass to be held accountable. Incidentally, many of those implicated in the coup attempt were from public schools, such as Lawrence College, and were highly Westernized officers.

Oops, sorry. The PAF lost a total of 42 planes in 1971, not 51.

Bhartiya Musalman,

Since you have never been to Pakistan, or ever travelled outside your hometown, Your ingnorance is forgiveable.

You are really giving Indians a very bad name by posting your nonsense, because it shows the ignorance of the worst class

You write :

`Your cowardice is the cowardice of expressing

ideas that lack any intellectual honesty. `

Uh huh, Kindly point out one lie, one non fact in all that I have written. On the contrary, I have repeatedly asked you to explain why Pakistan is a failed state, and why do you think Pakistan is an Arabicized state, and you have failed to answer time and again. Who is the real coward?

Then you go on to utter absolute nonsense, raising petty slogans without any concrete ideas. You call me immature, ignorant, intellectually dishonest, I say Physician Heal thyself. You have been rejected, refused and reprimanded by your own countrymen on this site for your blatant arrogance and ignorance. Who other than Rsaxena, the arrogant ignorant Hindu Fanatic, has supported you?

You have no idea about Pakistan, the world, Secularism, History, etc! You have just come in to excrete your nonsense, on this board, simply because your proposal was rejected by Aisha Sarwari.

It is her decision! She does not want to marry an indian Muslim! Simple! No hard feelings! Alright?

Stop taking it out on Pakistan ...

And then you say ...

`Remember we are no longer 8th century Bedouins who need to solve our disputes through physical fighting.`
And you end your post by

`Death to the Banana Republic (Pak-Jehad-Mullah-Stan)`

`Death to False Muslims.`

I suppose this is maturity?

And then you say

`we are involved in a debate of ideas at Chowk...so please dont play these childish games and dramatics of stating ``YLH lives in...blah blah blah``. Pathetic.`

Yup the ideas that you present are:

The Ideas Bhartiya Musalman wants to debate:

1) Pakistan should be dissolved because it is Arab!

2) Anyone who supports Pakistan is an Arab Wannbe

3) Pakistanis are racially inferior to Indians.

4) Arabs are the worst of humanity

5) Kill all Pakistanis

6) Punjabis and Pathans are inferior

7) Pakistan is going to get f 17s

8) India is the bastion of Islam

9) Any Indian who goes against BM`s words is an Arab

10) Join my organization Deen Ilahi again

11) India is the strongest nation in the world

12) India beat Pakistan in everything!

13) India has won more cricket matches than Pakistan.

14) I am a Muslim .. I am an Indian. I am the man!

15) Anyone who drinks is a false Muslim
<>

16) Anyone who lives in a frat, drinks!
<>

17) All Muslims who dont go to temples are non Muslims
<>

18) Arabs are the worst humanity
<>

19) Pakistan should be dissolved because it is Arab
<>

20) Pakistanis are inferior in intelligence!
<>

21) Look I am being supported by intelligent non biased intellectuals ie Harimau, Rsaxena
<>

22) Shammi is an Arab slave
<>

23) Eklavya is an Arab Slave
<>

24) Dost Mittar is an Arab Slave
<>

25) Veeresh is an Arab slave
<>

26) Sadna is a Goddess
<>

27) Join my organization Deen e Ilahi again.
<>

28) Arabs su--ck
<>

29) Pakistan su--cks
<>

30) YLH drinks so he is a Mullah! (nope I dont drink)
<>

31) YLH studies in the US and lives in a frat so he is a Non Muslim
<>

32) YLH is hiding behind Rutgers so he is a Non Muslim
<>

33) YLH uses the computer hence YLH is a coward!
<>

34) YLH is a coward
<>

35) YLH is an Arab Wannabe Coward
<>

36) Studebaker is an Arab Wannabe Cowardly Pakistani (eventhough he is an Indian)
<>

37) Shankar is a Maulvi from Lahore!
<>

38) Klutz is demented Arab Wannabe
<>

39) Arabs are the lowest form of humanity
<>

40) Pakistan is a failed state!

Ofcourse for Rsaxena, there hasnt been a greater hero for India!

-YLH

I am the culprit now?

This Bhartiya Musalman Character has been going on repeatedly about how Pakistan is inferior racially!

Pakistani Pilots as admitted by many of your countrymen on this board are world class and this is an accepted fact.

Since you have never been to Pakistan, it will be better if you stopped making assumptions about Pakistan!

Only a completely delusional person would believe that India has been able to build its institutions markedly better than Pakistan.

That fanatical fools like Bhartiya Musalman wish to believe that Pakistan Air Force is not an institution of high class they can...

The USAF`s ratings, Chuck Yeager`s Analysis (you know who Chuck Yeager is dont you? Bhartiya), Jane Defense Weekly ratings, etc amount to much more than a Bhartiya Confused running around declaring

that Pakistan Air Force is bad Pakistan is bad because they are Arab Wannabe.

As for educational institutions, LUMS, AGHA KHAN MEDICAL UNIVERSITY, GIK, IBA, KING EDWARD MEDICAL COLLEGE, GOVERNMENT COLLEGE LAHORE, UNIVERSITY OF ENGINEERING AND TECHNOLOGY LAHORE, NATIONAL UNIVERSITY OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY, AND THE PAKISTAN AIR FORCE ACCADEMY RISALPUR, are amongst the world`s best

-YLH

ylh #: 50

`` Even in 1971 according to Chuck Yeager, the Pakistan Air Force maintained a Kill ratio of 3 to 1 of our own............``

Oye Khotya,

Remember when I took you to your airforce web site which was total plagiarization of a Chezh site that lifted material from US site.

Even training manual on that site was verbatim copy.

Sudhar jaa puttar, sudhar jaa!!

`And by the way, YLH, you call me ugly...without ever having seen me...hows that for a credible insult? Is that the intelectual high that you are capable of? Is that what Rutgers can produce? `

You call Pakistan names, you call Pakistanis inferior, and you live in this almost Nazi conception of the world ... and you dare talk about who says what? You havent been to Pakistan, and you probably havent met one either... then why do you keep slandering Pakistan.

You are the real coward. You are not man enough to admit when you are wrong. You kept saying Pakistan is an Arab state when we proved to you it was not. You kept saying Pakistan is a failed state when you havent defined what a failed state is... you keep calling me an Arab wannabe when I am not... you keep calling Anthony a Wahabi when he is not...

We can all go pointing fingers. The truth is that there is a lot of good about Pakistan that you cannot admit, because you inherently a coward!

And to tell you the truth, there is a lot of good about India too, but you definitely overshadow all that is good about India, with your rabid fanatical bigotry!

Look at what Indians say about you ... look at Stuka, look at Veeresh, look at Shammi, look at any mature Indian... look at what they are saying about you... have you no shame? Are you so delusional, so bigoted, so fanatical, and so blinded by your hatred and your Nazi ideals of `Indian Racial Superiority` that you will continue to spew this nonsense... this childish bakwass, which is demeaning and berating not only this site but your own country!

To the Rest:

This is an old debate. Like Romair said ... Pakistan has great fighter pilots, a professional Air Force, a quality cricket team, and great TV serials... India has great programmers, excellent engineers, and excellent entertainment industry...

Let us accept the superiority of our respective nations in these fieldS! The day India will sideline fanatics like Bhartiya Musalman, we shall have peace in the subcontinent!

Long Live Pakistan!

Assessment of Pakistani Military:

`Capable of defense of homeland against all existing and foreseeable theats (India)`

http://www.cdi.org/issues/Asia/PAKISTAN.html

So much for smashing Pakistan!

PAF engages Indian Air Force

9 July 1999

ISLAMABAD: In what was a classic pre-dawn interception, air defence interceptors of

the Pakistan Air Force, comprising of two PAF F-7MP fighter jets, intercepted and

engaged intruding Indian Air Force (IAF) fighter jets which crossed the Line of Control in

Jammu & Kashmir and violated Pakistan`s airspace by several kilometres. The IAF fighters

were believed to be two MiG-27ML ground-attack aircraft and two Mirage 2000H

fighters providng top cover. The event took place in the early hours of Thursday, 8 July

1999, at approximately 2:30 a.m. (0230 hours) PST.

According to sources, PAF F-7MP fighters were supported by two F-16 Fighting Falcons

providing back-up which conducted electronic jamming of the intruder IAF `bandits`. The

F-16s were scrambled whereas the F-7MPs were already on Combat Air Patrol (CAP)

duty when the incursion occured.

The PAF F-7MP air defence interceptors were immediately vectored by GCI towards the

intruding `bandits` within seconds of their crossing into Pakistan airspace. The PAF fighters

intercepted the Indian fighters and `locked` on them with their missiles. In fighter terms, this

is an invitation for a dogfight. However, the IAF fighters refused to engage in return and

instead fled straight back into the airspace of Indian-held Kashmir in what PAF pilots

perceived was sheer panic. ``It was not a very orderly or dignified exit``, remarked a PAF

officer.

According to PAF sources, even the Dynamic Launch Zone (DLZ) perimetres had been

met for launching of the air-to-air missiles which means that the PAF pilots had gotten the

AAM tone indicating the bandits were well within shoot-down range of the PAF fighters.

A missile tone is achieved when the missile`s infrared heat-seeker or its radar has picked

up the hostile aircraft. ``It looks as if we gave them a fright``, says a PAF officer, ``Their

RWR signal would have been blasting off in the cockpits as our interceptors tracked them``.

If the missiles were short-range heat-seeking missiles, then this would imply that the

distance between the PAF and the IAF fighters was less than 10 kilometres - ``Too close

for comfort``, as the PAF officer remarked.

PAF fighters did not shoot down the Indian fighters even though they were within range of

the air-to-air missiles of the PAF fighters. The Indian fighters were perilously close to the

Line of Control and their wreckage may have fallen inside Indian-held Kashmir territory

which, going by their track record, would have given the Indian authorities the opportunity

to blame the PAF for the intrusion.

According to the PAF Rules of Engagement (ROE), three conditions have to be met in

peacetime before an enemy aircraft can be shot down: (i) the enemy aircraft must violate

Pakistan`s airspace; (ii) it must be a combat aircraft and (iii) its wreckage must fall inside

Pakistani territory. `Peacetime` in the context of India and Pakistan means when no war has

been declared.

In this instance, the third criterion may not have been met as the IAF fighters were too

close to the LoC and their wreckage may have fallen on either side of the LoC.

``All the intruder Indian fighters fled when our our air defence fighters locked on them``, said

a PAF officer.

A second intrusion occured seven and a half hours later, at approximately 10:00 a.m.

(1000 hours) PST, when two IAF fighter jets violated Pakistan`s airspace in the

Mushkoh-Olding sector in Jammu & Kashmir. Two F-7MPs were immediately scrambled

from a forward PAF air base to intercept the two intruders. However, the IAF jets sensing

the PAF fighters fast approaching them, turned back and fled into Indian-held Kashmir

before the PAF interceptors could get a missile lock-on them.

In both cases, the IAF intruders had taken off from Srinagar air base, according to PAF

GCI controllers.

It is pertinent to mention here that earlier this year, on 27 May 1999, two intruder Indian

Air Force MiGs - a MiG-27ML and a MiG-21bis - were shot down by the Air Defence

Command of the Pakistan Army using Anza-II SAMs after the IAF jets had violated

Pakistan`s airspace in the Jammu & Kashmir region. The wreckage of both the Indian

aircraft fell 10-12 kilometres inside Pakistani territory near Hamzi Ghund. One Indian pilot,

Flt. Lt. K. Nachiketa, was captured whereas the other pilot, Sqn. Ldr. Ajay Ahuja, was

killed. Sqn. Ldr. Ahuja`s body was returned to India with full military honours and Flt. Lt.

Nachiketa was released shortly afterwards.

ylh,

(1)

``Even in 1971 according to Chuck Yeager...``,

Chuck Yeager, being the American advisor to the PAF in 1971, is obviously not a neutral party. It was his job to see that the PAF did well. Can we expect his comments to be fair ?

Can you please quote the portions in his biography which tell about Indian jets shooting up everything in sight in Pak forward airfields so much that they became almost unusable.

And please, please...can you also mention the delightful portion where the IAF gave him a special present to remember them as along as he lives.

(2)

``I am yet to read of any significant role of the Indian Air Force in Kargil.``

Mantho Dhalo (NLI base camp). 150 killed in night bombing raid.

Yasser saa`b(#50 etc.),

Ji aapki hawai fauj kay to Masha allah kya kahane. Aap ki dhaak to duniya bhar meiN hai, yeh baat to aapkay Yegar saa`b kai baar kah chukay heiN. Aur yahaN par bahaut saaray logoN ko AmreekiyoN nay bhi yahi kaha hai. Ham to ji bas yuheeN thoda sa patang kabootar uda letay haiN. Hamra aapka kya muquabla? Aap to ji, bekar mein apna time jaya kar rahe ho, ham logoN say bahas karkay. Ham ganwar logoN ki samajh meiN aapki baDi-baDi batayN itni asani say nahiN aayegi ji.

Agar mujhay theek say yaad ho to yeh Yegar saa`b

wahi haiN jo aapki hawai fauj ko train kartay thay. (Eisa shayad aapnay hi kaha tha, agar nahiN kaha ho to bhai hamara sorry, jaisa kay aap jaantay hi haiN ki ham logoN ki to aadat hai jhooth bolanay ki). The last time you quoted Yegar as having said ``WE kicked Indian a$$es...``.

This time it is ``Pakistanees kicked...``. Ji mere kahanay ka matlab yeh hai ki Yegar aapka apna banda hai. Jo kah day sahi hai. Thoda sa exaggerate kar gaya, jaisa ki aapnay farmaya.

Waisay, Manoj bhai kay safed jhooth nay aapko sadden kar diya, iska hameN kaafi dard hai.

Eik aur baat hamanay dekhi saa`b ki aap bahaut saari kitabeN paDatay ho. Saray authors jo ki aap

quote kartay ho baDe impartial haiN ji. Somehow they always end up prooving your point of view. Which is, showing that how your institutions are

great and how you guys have been most tolerant etc. Pata nahiN kyoN, hameN aapk kitaaboN ka collection kaafi selective lagta hai, bura mat manana ji, eisay hi eik kh`yal aaya to bol diya.

Aapkay kai mureedoN meiN say eik.

ps

ROmair:

u gif me plaise, I give you thankhs haa... but i tell you i not gifen India IIT i gif india manpower to get IIT. Make babiss I thell them they lisen. Manpower se?

but i take to heart your love for me.

Narain kumar

summit75

``Dont know which force from which country is more superior but our boys won hands down in the looks department! at least from the girls perspective``

now how can we just take your word for it? Pls put up the evidence (photographs) asap on the web so one can have a dekkho and pass a verdict for oneself - from a girls persp : ) !

aicha

Bhartiya:

You have nerves of steal, impenetrable when it comes to shame, that you can still hand around after Reply #: 34

Aisha Sarwari

Ref Acheron2

would you be interested in logically debating the following 2 assertions of yours:

1)the PAF was the major reason that India was not able to subjugate(?) East Pakistan until the very end of the war.

2)were not for the PAF Lahore may well have fallen to the Indian Army

correction: #48: ``Does every offensive comment deserve a reply?``

should read

``Does every offensive comment deserve an offensive reply?

Shirin Ahmad #44: ``For some reason Adnan Sami has found more popularity in India than in Pakistan, just as Chandan Daas has amongst the Pakistani`s and not Indians !``

Since we are on the subject, did you know that Adnan Sami Khan is the son of a PAF fighter pilot. Adnan for Ashwariya is acceptable trade, not for Chandan Daas. Who is Chandan Daas, by the way?

Other famous perfomers who are children of PAF fighter pilots: Marina Khan, Junaid Jamshed.

Famous Indian Air Force kids (not 100% sure): Poonam Dhillon, Lara Dutta, and probably many more.

summit75 #43: ``my two friends used to have both fathers were in the airforce and navy respectively. They loved arguing over which cadets were more cuter the Pakistan airforce guys or the pakistan Navy guys.``

It is unclear from your post, whether it was your friends or their fathers arguing over the cadets. I hope for the sake of the PAF and PN cadets, it was your friends, and not their fathers. :-)