The Indo-Pak Summit, Kashmir and the Taj Mahal
Ras Siddiqui July 8, 2001
#29 Posted by nameless on July 10, 2001 12:10:44 pm
Ras, here is an interesting precedent (just 2-3 years old - not centuries old or decades old).
`t recalled that Vajpayee`s last summit journey in 1999 ``drew considerable praise``, noting that ``during his
stay in Lahore, Vajpayee visited the Minar-e-Pakistan, the monument erected to commemorate the
manifesto calling for the creation of Pakistan as a separate homeland for the subcontinent`s Muslims``.
During that visit he scrawled the following lines into the distinguished visitors` guest book: ``I wish to
assure the people of Pakistan of my country`s deep desire for lasting peace and friendship. I have said this
before, and I will say it again: A stable, secure and prosperous Pakistan is in India`s interest. Let no one in
Pakistan be in doubt about this. India sincerely wishes the people of Pakistan well.``
The Stimson Centre brief, however, pointed out that ``while Vajpayee was writing these lines, two
brigades of the Pakistan Army and `mujaheddin` were preparing to scale the heights above Kargil in a
daring effort to seize and hold territory on India`s side of the Line of Control dividing Kashmir``. `
Now that pervy was in charge, and the defacto Aurangazeb to Sharif`s Shah Jehan, of this stabbing of Sharif and Vajpayee, who is
the New Aurangazeb. Oh, there are many. Do you think Pervy will visit DElhi Fort and repeat what Vajapayee said at the minar in Lahore or something similar.....
The metaphors you have used are so heavy man...give me that peace pipe....
The reference to the article is
``http://www.rediff.com/us/2001/jul/10us2.htm - title:`Musharraf has more cause to fear failure`
`t recalled that Vajpayee`s last summit journey in 1999 ``drew considerable praise``, noting that ``during his
stay in Lahore, Vajpayee visited the Minar-e-Pakistan, the monument erected to commemorate the
manifesto calling for the creation of Pakistan as a separate homeland for the subcontinent`s Muslims``.
During that visit he scrawled the following lines into the distinguished visitors` guest book: ``I wish to
assure the people of Pakistan of my country`s deep desire for lasting peace and friendship. I have said this
before, and I will say it again: A stable, secure and prosperous Pakistan is in India`s interest. Let no one in
Pakistan be in doubt about this. India sincerely wishes the people of Pakistan well.``
The Stimson Centre brief, however, pointed out that ``while Vajpayee was writing these lines, two
brigades of the Pakistan Army and `mujaheddin` were preparing to scale the heights above Kargil in a
daring effort to seize and hold territory on India`s side of the Line of Control dividing Kashmir``. `
Now that pervy was in charge, and the defacto Aurangazeb to Sharif`s Shah Jehan, of this stabbing of Sharif and Vajpayee, who is
the New Aurangazeb. Oh, there are many. Do you think Pervy will visit DElhi Fort and repeat what Vajapayee said at the minar in Lahore or something similar.....
The metaphors you have used are so heavy man...give me that peace pipe....
The reference to the article is
``http://www.rediff.com/us/2001/jul/10us2.htm - title:`Musharraf has more cause to fear failure`
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#28 Posted by nameless on July 10, 2001 12:10:44 pm
Hi Ras,
a few quibles
(a) Shah Jehan was a Mughal Empreror not a `the Muslim Emperor of India`. Sure he was a muslim - but surely he was not the empreror of the muslims.
This is a frog in the well approach - and I am afraid thats the infection here.
(b) Kashmir is but one of the problems.
(c) the bllod soaked partition is not a british legacy but an Indian legacy. The brits only did what we wanted them to do. Even today we see this approach to our lives where we want outside (phirang) intervention. They will provide solutions which they want not what is on our best interests.
(d)The main problem is the attitude - kafirs and all and indeed the very first line of the essay/article highlights the plight of the frogs in the well.
(e) the last but one para :re shah jehan and aurangazeb - high lights the problem facing pakistan today. Every shah jehan (or shah jehani) who wanted a settlemetn was over thrown by an aurangazeb who outdid aurangazeb in their pious nature. And pervy babe should watch out....there are more aurangazebs there now.
Your metaphors are so mixed and jinxed and only serve to confuse - may be you are being rather far sighted in your approach. However, the use of the taj highlights the problems of vision...
a few quibles
(a) Shah Jehan was a Mughal Empreror not a `the Muslim Emperor of India`. Sure he was a muslim - but surely he was not the empreror of the muslims.
This is a frog in the well approach - and I am afraid thats the infection here.
(b) Kashmir is but one of the problems.
(c) the bllod soaked partition is not a british legacy but an Indian legacy. The brits only did what we wanted them to do. Even today we see this approach to our lives where we want outside (phirang) intervention. They will provide solutions which they want not what is on our best interests.
(d)The main problem is the attitude - kafirs and all and indeed the very first line of the essay/article highlights the plight of the frogs in the well.
(e) the last but one para :re shah jehan and aurangazeb - high lights the problem facing pakistan today. Every shah jehan (or shah jehani) who wanted a settlemetn was over thrown by an aurangazeb who outdid aurangazeb in their pious nature. And pervy babe should watch out....there are more aurangazebs there now.
Your metaphors are so mixed and jinxed and only serve to confuse - may be you are being rather far sighted in your approach. However, the use of the taj highlights the problems of vision...
#27 Posted by jay on July 10, 2001 12:10:44 pm
Sameer 23,
India seem to have no hope of finding the correct pakistani to talk to. When Mianji was in power, after lahore, he was the darling. After the coup we supported and the romairs of the pakistan said that it is an indian plot to divide pakistan, mianji was corrupt hated etc blah and does not represent pak people. Now we have the new chappie, he is not elected, no mandate, changes the constitution, is traching the corrupt so that only the pure military remains, according to you is not representative of pakistan. It is again an indian ploy.
May be the asghar of the hijack fame, the great men who assemble at medrike for Lasker meetings are the true representatives of pakistan.
May it is the patriotic pakistanis in exile like the bhuttos and mianjis.
May be it is the YLH and aamirs of the chowk.
May be all of the above.
India seem to have no hope of finding the correct pakistani to talk to. When Mianji was in power, after lahore, he was the darling. After the coup we supported and the romairs of the pakistan said that it is an indian plot to divide pakistan, mianji was corrupt hated etc blah and does not represent pak people. Now we have the new chappie, he is not elected, no mandate, changes the constitution, is traching the corrupt so that only the pure military remains, according to you is not representative of pakistan. It is again an indian ploy.
May be the asghar of the hijack fame, the great men who assemble at medrike for Lasker meetings are the true representatives of pakistan.
May it is the patriotic pakistanis in exile like the bhuttos and mianjis.
May be it is the YLH and aamirs of the chowk.
May be all of the above.
#26 Posted by sadna on July 10, 2001 11:57:51 am
SameerJB #23
I have been pondering over your post ever since I read it, because the tone was so unlike you. I would recommend you ignore comments like Godots :). I think I understand your apprehension about a possible `Indian` grand design.
My own estimate is that the matter is more simple.
Firstly, its India granting visas not Pakistan. Pakistan doesnot need to reciprocate if it doesnot want to. If Pakistan has been resisting granting citizenship for some stranded Biharis from erstwhile East Pakistan without loss of face, I feel Pakistan can successfully resist an open-ended influx of migration let alone visitors from India through its own measures.
Secondly, you mentioned the earthquake. Well, apparently there were a significant number of Pakistanis waiting to travel to India after the earthquake because many of them had family in Bhuj and India denied them visas to even see if their brothers and sisters and other family members were dead or alive..
Remembering this, I feel its a long-delayed humanitarian gesture , nothing else.
Thirdly, India also cannot afford to allow easy passage over the borders, Pakistanis bent on violence have been caught with explosives in as far flung areas such as Rajasthan, Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, UP. Apparently just before the last Kanpur riots, a Jaish-e-Mohammed functionary from Pakistan visited the same locality. And lets not forget the attack on Red Fort. Its not clear whether peace with Pakistani government will mean an end to such activities by others.
Apart from explosives, there is smuggling of drugs and arms. A recent election in a border district in Bihar? it was reported how local goons with arms and smuggling money went around intimidating voters. Apart from this, the open Nepal-India border has facilitated the occurence of a number of serious problems in the recent past, including introduction of huge amounts of fake currency, an I donot think anyone higher up has forgotten.
So I donot believe that India can realistically afford to pursue a large scale policy of open borders. The security paradigm of Islam/TNT seems to be working fine:).
I have been pondering over your post ever since I read it, because the tone was so unlike you. I would recommend you ignore comments like Godots :). I think I understand your apprehension about a possible `Indian` grand design.
My own estimate is that the matter is more simple.
Firstly, its India granting visas not Pakistan. Pakistan doesnot need to reciprocate if it doesnot want to. If Pakistan has been resisting granting citizenship for some stranded Biharis from erstwhile East Pakistan without loss of face, I feel Pakistan can successfully resist an open-ended influx of migration let alone visitors from India through its own measures.
Secondly, you mentioned the earthquake. Well, apparently there were a significant number of Pakistanis waiting to travel to India after the earthquake because many of them had family in Bhuj and India denied them visas to even see if their brothers and sisters and other family members were dead or alive..
Remembering this, I feel its a long-delayed humanitarian gesture , nothing else.
Thirdly, India also cannot afford to allow easy passage over the borders, Pakistanis bent on violence have been caught with explosives in as far flung areas such as Rajasthan, Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, UP. Apparently just before the last Kanpur riots, a Jaish-e-Mohammed functionary from Pakistan visited the same locality. And lets not forget the attack on Red Fort. Its not clear whether peace with Pakistani government will mean an end to such activities by others.
Apart from explosives, there is smuggling of drugs and arms. A recent election in a border district in Bihar? it was reported how local goons with arms and smuggling money went around intimidating voters. Apart from this, the open Nepal-India border has facilitated the occurence of a number of serious problems in the recent past, including introduction of huge amounts of fake currency, an I donot think anyone higher up has forgotten.
So I donot believe that India can realistically afford to pursue a large scale policy of open borders. The security paradigm of Islam/TNT seems to be working fine:).
#25 Posted by temporal on July 10, 2001 10:59:11 am
SameerJB #23
...perhaps...perhaps you are over emphasizing...
[...India is trying to create India friendly population in southern Pakistan where the supposed Iran-India gas pipeline is supposed to pass....]
...the descriptions I have read...including protests by sindh nationalists berating the ‘upward’ tilt in the proposed route...passing through multan..and not the direct lower sind route...contradicts your apprehensions...
[...I have the record of more pro-India than most Pakistanis on chowk but India should be fair and honest in dealing with Pakistani people who are not represented by the current regime in Islamabad...]
...without being excessively pro-this-or-that...have always promoted a live and let live attitude and avoiding the easily degenerative shouting matches...but yaar ...really...i do not expect either india or pakistan to be ‘fair and honest’ in their dealings...why?...because of necessity....the respective governments will always prioritize their national interest above any other consideration...and most times that negates the fair and honest concepts...that is why we have the fifth columns...with support from honest and committed citizens lobbying and pressurizing for fairness and honesty...
[...temporal, I am a supporter of a new paradigm for Pakistan because I see Islam/ TNT and military spending responsible for the economical, social and political decline of state and people. Unlike most sane Pakistanis who are trying to patch up old paradigm by reinterpreting and reformulating, I feel the burden of Islam and military spending will ultimately undo Pakistan...]
...look sameer...you are no less sane...in fact you have a better grasp than most ‘sane’ ones...and it takes courage and powers of reflection to admit a paradigm shift in your thinking...but in your newly reflected emphasis on punjabiyat my friend avoid the pitfalls of excessive zeal that is usually the unmaking of any convert and zealot...unchecked...this zeal and admiration of ethnocentrism more often leads to isolationism...albania of recent past and the current woes of afghans being a point...besides ... no ‘secular constitution’ can satisfy the objectives of any ethno-centric state in isolation...neither man nor state can survive in isolation...knowing you I know these views would not offend you...
...also, would appreciate your comments on mahatir’s recent speech...have posted it in the speaker’s corner...
rgds,
t
...perhaps...perhaps you are over emphasizing...
[...India is trying to create India friendly population in southern Pakistan where the supposed Iran-India gas pipeline is supposed to pass....]
...the descriptions I have read...including protests by sindh nationalists berating the ‘upward’ tilt in the proposed route...passing through multan..and not the direct lower sind route...contradicts your apprehensions...
[...I have the record of more pro-India than most Pakistanis on chowk but India should be fair and honest in dealing with Pakistani people who are not represented by the current regime in Islamabad...]
...without being excessively pro-this-or-that...have always promoted a live and let live attitude and avoiding the easily degenerative shouting matches...but yaar ...really...i do not expect either india or pakistan to be ‘fair and honest’ in their dealings...why?...because of necessity....the respective governments will always prioritize their national interest above any other consideration...and most times that negates the fair and honest concepts...that is why we have the fifth columns...with support from honest and committed citizens lobbying and pressurizing for fairness and honesty...
[...temporal, I am a supporter of a new paradigm for Pakistan because I see Islam/ TNT and military spending responsible for the economical, social and political decline of state and people. Unlike most sane Pakistanis who are trying to patch up old paradigm by reinterpreting and reformulating, I feel the burden of Islam and military spending will ultimately undo Pakistan...]
...look sameer...you are no less sane...in fact you have a better grasp than most ‘sane’ ones...and it takes courage and powers of reflection to admit a paradigm shift in your thinking...but in your newly reflected emphasis on punjabiyat my friend avoid the pitfalls of excessive zeal that is usually the unmaking of any convert and zealot...unchecked...this zeal and admiration of ethnocentrism more often leads to isolationism...albania of recent past and the current woes of afghans being a point...besides ... no ‘secular constitution’ can satisfy the objectives of any ethno-centric state in isolation...neither man nor state can survive in isolation...knowing you I know these views would not offend you...
...also, would appreciate your comments on mahatir’s recent speech...have posted it in the speaker’s corner...
rgds,
t
#24 Posted by Shima on July 10, 2001 2:46:20 am
Temporal, I am surprised too. It does not sound like our usual tolerant, sage-like SameerJB. Sameer, would you like to elaborate?
Regards
Regards
#23 Posted by Eklavya on July 10, 2001 2:46:20 am
re: Syed Ahmed # 12
``Pakistanis are generally a savage people..``
Pakistanis I know will do any civilization proud.
``Pakistanis are generally a savage people..``
Pakistanis I know will do any civilization proud.
#22 Posted by SameerJB on July 10, 2001 2:46:20 am
Upman7626 : [..muslims from UP, Bihar know enough about Pakistan to have no desire to migrate there....so rest easy!]
The attraction towards Pakistan from Indian Muslims was never just economical, the attraction was Islamic Pakistan/ TNT. All we need is another half a million or less Muslims to migrate to Pakistan for Islamic reason to upset the delicate balance of ethnic ratio in Sindh-making Sindhis minority in their own homeland.
Shammi: The point is preferential treatment of one of the five ethnicities of Pakistan by India with opening border checkpoints in the south. Although it looks simple humanistic gesture but humanistic gesture could have been directed to people who are fighting for survival than few people who are interested to visit India. I would have no objection if a humanistic gesture was made by India for people of drought-stricken areas of Balochistan or Thar desert. India has experience and machinery (from earthquake in Gujrat) that could have been mobilized for it. A small goodwill gesture would have gone long way.
India is trying to create India friendly population in southern Pakistan where the supposed Iran-India gas pipeline is supposed to pass. It is same failed strategy, Pakistan used with Unocal and Taliban for the gas pipeline from Turkmenistan. All the praises showered at Musharraf by India reminds me of Gorbachev popularity in the west. There is no better person for India to deal with than Musharraf in their game plan. Musharraf the President, Musharraf the field marshal, Agra Summit, gas pipeline, India friendly southern Pakistan (creating north south rift in Pakistan-as if we did not have enough rifts already to deal with) are pieces of same puzzle. shammi, I have the record of more pro-India than most Pakistanis on chowk but India should be fair and honest in dealing with Pakistani people who are not represented by the current regime in Islamabad.
Syed Ahmed and temporal: Thanks for expressing your opinion. I have actually no problem with Syed Ahmed`s assessment except for few strong words. temporal, I am a supporter of a new paradigm for Pakistan because I see Islam/ TNT and military spending responsible for the economical, social and political decline of state and people. Unlike most sane Pakistanis who are trying to patch up old paradigm by reinterpreting and reformulating, I feel the burden of Islam and military spending will ultimately undo Pakistan. The new paradigm is ethnocentric with respect for a new secular constitution as the most sacred document. A person with some knowledge of history, I am not willing to see my culture being devoured by Islam as it happened to all the cultures between Morocco to persian gulf through Islamic times. To me, aboveall, Punjabi Muslims are most responsible for the degradation of Punjabi culture in favor of others. They traded it as a commodity through Islamic empire period, through British period and throughout last 54 years in exchange for power and domination of bureaucracy in Pakistan. Syed Ahmed, the world in economic sense is becoming multicultural, in political sense, democratic with respect for laws of the land and in cultural sense (my focus more often) ethno-centric. If you see fascism, xenophobia or ethnophobia, I can`t do anything else to change your mind.
The attraction towards Pakistan from Indian Muslims was never just economical, the attraction was Islamic Pakistan/ TNT. All we need is another half a million or less Muslims to migrate to Pakistan for Islamic reason to upset the delicate balance of ethnic ratio in Sindh-making Sindhis minority in their own homeland.
Shammi: The point is preferential treatment of one of the five ethnicities of Pakistan by India with opening border checkpoints in the south. Although it looks simple humanistic gesture but humanistic gesture could have been directed to people who are fighting for survival than few people who are interested to visit India. I would have no objection if a humanistic gesture was made by India for people of drought-stricken areas of Balochistan or Thar desert. India has experience and machinery (from earthquake in Gujrat) that could have been mobilized for it. A small goodwill gesture would have gone long way.
India is trying to create India friendly population in southern Pakistan where the supposed Iran-India gas pipeline is supposed to pass. It is same failed strategy, Pakistan used with Unocal and Taliban for the gas pipeline from Turkmenistan. All the praises showered at Musharraf by India reminds me of Gorbachev popularity in the west. There is no better person for India to deal with than Musharraf in their game plan. Musharraf the President, Musharraf the field marshal, Agra Summit, gas pipeline, India friendly southern Pakistan (creating north south rift in Pakistan-as if we did not have enough rifts already to deal with) are pieces of same puzzle. shammi, I have the record of more pro-India than most Pakistanis on chowk but India should be fair and honest in dealing with Pakistani people who are not represented by the current regime in Islamabad.
Syed Ahmed and temporal: Thanks for expressing your opinion. I have actually no problem with Syed Ahmed`s assessment except for few strong words. temporal, I am a supporter of a new paradigm for Pakistan because I see Islam/ TNT and military spending responsible for the economical, social and political decline of state and people. Unlike most sane Pakistanis who are trying to patch up old paradigm by reinterpreting and reformulating, I feel the burden of Islam and military spending will ultimately undo Pakistan. The new paradigm is ethnocentric with respect for a new secular constitution as the most sacred document. A person with some knowledge of history, I am not willing to see my culture being devoured by Islam as it happened to all the cultures between Morocco to persian gulf through Islamic times. To me, aboveall, Punjabi Muslims are most responsible for the degradation of Punjabi culture in favor of others. They traded it as a commodity through Islamic empire period, through British period and throughout last 54 years in exchange for power and domination of bureaucracy in Pakistan. Syed Ahmed, the world in economic sense is becoming multicultural, in political sense, democratic with respect for laws of the land and in cultural sense (my focus more often) ethno-centric. If you see fascism, xenophobia or ethnophobia, I can`t do anything else to change your mind.
#21 Posted by cbb on July 10, 2001 2:46:20 am
Romair #1, Stuka #9
As always, Romair should be given a pat at the back for being incorrect, misleading, and utterly selective.
First of all, all threes states did not go to India. Pakistan has a big chunk of Kashmir, and another big chunk of Kashmir has been donated to China by Pakistan.
Secondly, without going into debate whether
India entered Kashmir before or after Hari Singh signed off Kashmir in favor of India (Dawn of July 9 has a copy of it!), India only entered Kashmir to expel tribal Pakistanis who had taken an illegal control of Kashmir.
Thirdly, rules of partition were clear and are clear even now. The King of a state had the powers to merge with either India or Pakistan or stay independent. For this reason, the control of India over Kashmir is legal.
Pakistan lost control of Junagarh and Hydrabad after the partition. It is now trying to avenge the loss of those states and of East Pakistan by creating and supporting militancy in Kashmir.
As always, Romair should be given a pat at the back for being incorrect, misleading, and utterly selective.
First of all, all threes states did not go to India. Pakistan has a big chunk of Kashmir, and another big chunk of Kashmir has been donated to China by Pakistan.
Secondly, without going into debate whether
India entered Kashmir before or after Hari Singh signed off Kashmir in favor of India (Dawn of July 9 has a copy of it!), India only entered Kashmir to expel tribal Pakistanis who had taken an illegal control of Kashmir.
Thirdly, rules of partition were clear and are clear even now. The King of a state had the powers to merge with either India or Pakistan or stay independent. For this reason, the control of India over Kashmir is legal.
Pakistan lost control of Junagarh and Hydrabad after the partition. It is now trying to avenge the loss of those states and of East Pakistan by creating and supporting militancy in Kashmir.
#20 Posted by veeresh on July 10, 2001 2:46:20 am
It would be good for all of us if more people realised as well as accepted that Kashmir is and was not the only ``problem`` between India and Pakistan.
So, if in any negotiated settlement between enemies, because you seldom need settlements between friends, if overly contentious issues are put on the back burner and other solvable issues are brought forward, then what is the harm?
Or is the fear of finding a solution very worrisome for those of us who wish to, for whatever reason, perpetuate a status quo for personal benefits of ego or pelf?
#19 Posted by Shah on July 9, 2001 9:33:13 pm
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#18 Posted by upman7626 on July 9, 2001 9:33:13 pm
Sameer JB # 8
``We already have so much problem from Afghan refugees (they must be sent back) and can not afford another flood of Muslim refugees from UP, Bihar, Bangladesh and stranded Biharis in BD.``
..muslims from UP, Bihar know enough about Pakistan to have no desire to migrate there....so rest easy!
#17 Posted by upman7626 on July 9, 2001 9:33:13 pm
Stuka # 9:
..i see that you are falling for the charm offensive...in mood for the summit i guess...but inspite of your tremendous awareness regarding the AirForce etc, your history is not very strong (including the assertion that Jinnah is seen as a rabid mullah in India...the popular impression in India is that Jinnah was a Muslim of convenience, discovering Islam when he was a leader without a cause)...Romair has received several responses throughout his kashmir dirge- but obviously anything that doesnt fall within the Pak-defined formula of Muslim=Pakistan and India=Hindu is ``illogical`` to him
..unfortunately for him, the truth in Kashmir too is nuanced and multi-layered...maybe illogical w.r.t. the single-dimensional concept of Pakistan......and i can think of several other illogical (to that premise) entities in the whole partition-of-India ruckus:
1/ India has an equal, if not more, number of Muslims than Pakistan
2/ a nation whose primary justification was the protection of a minority`s (=Muslim`s) rights goes on to have one of the most anti-minority laws in the world
3/ the east half of bengal was muslim-majority, but it is not a part of Pakistan anymore(this is not merely a rhetorical statement, an attempt at understanding this fundamental truth would go a long way in righting attitudes in pakistan)
4/ the country which was supposed to become Hindu chauvnist and discriminatory becomes neither Hindu chauvnist nor discriminatory.
5/ the main pitch of pakistan on the Kashmir issue- `representation of people`s wishes` -is a right it has not given its own population for a major portion of its history.
6/ significant (muslim) sections within Pakistan itself is calling the creation of Pakistan the biggest blunder in history.
..with such a context, it is amazing to see the self-righteous Pakistani heart bleeding for Kashmir and wondering why the world (or India) does not agree to its cause.....and military might is a convenient explanation that does not puncture this self-righteousness...
#16 Posted by shammi on July 9, 2001 9:33:13 pm
Re: SameerJB
It is not only 4th cousins who want to visit. There have been several cross- border marriages since 1947. Even these individuals have a lot of difficulty. I have friends who have married across the border. Besides, since when have illegal migrants respected visas/consular policies anywhere in the world? No visa has ever stopped Bangladeshis from crossing over to India, or Mexicans into the US. When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns! The same applies to visa rules
Re: Stuka
Thanks for the details. But, your chronology of events still proves my point:
1) Indian diplomat gets beaten up in Islamabad
2) India refuses to hand over Jinnah`s house (why should it anyway (Pakistan govt. sensibilities not withstanding? Could other ordinary Indian refugees ask for ownership of property abandoned in Pakistan?)
3)Pakistan shuts down Indian consulate in Karachi (how do you draw a connection between Jinnah`s house and Karachi consulate? Was Jinnah`s house ever a Pakistani consulate?)
In the end, it are the ordinary people who suffer.
It is not only 4th cousins who want to visit. There have been several cross- border marriages since 1947. Even these individuals have a lot of difficulty. I have friends who have married across the border. Besides, since when have illegal migrants respected visas/consular policies anywhere in the world? No visa has ever stopped Bangladeshis from crossing over to India, or Mexicans into the US. When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns! The same applies to visa rules
Re: Stuka
Thanks for the details. But, your chronology of events still proves my point:
1) Indian diplomat gets beaten up in Islamabad
2) India refuses to hand over Jinnah`s house (why should it anyway (Pakistan govt. sensibilities not withstanding? Could other ordinary Indian refugees ask for ownership of property abandoned in Pakistan?)
3)Pakistan shuts down Indian consulate in Karachi (how do you draw a connection between Jinnah`s house and Karachi consulate? Was Jinnah`s house ever a Pakistani consulate?)
In the end, it are the ordinary people who suffer.
#15 Posted by narain on July 9, 2001 9:33:13 pm
Dear Mr.Siddiqui,
I must commend you for a very fair article. So where do we go from here? To me it seems that the Indian strategy for the summit seems to be to:
1. Get Pakistan to choose peace.
2. lower the heat in Kashmir, put the issue on the usual backburner and allow India to work on restoring peace in its own part.
3. Get the LOC accepted as the international border in the long term once tempers have cooled down on both sides of the border.
Sops which would be offered to Pakistan to accept India`s terms would include:
1. Demilitarization of Siachen (hence the urgency to get the DGMOs to meet?)
2. Gas pipeline through Pakistan
3. Increased trade opportunities, possibly on unilaterally preferential terms.
To apply more pressure on Pakistan, India is already using various ``feel good`` mechanisms like making travel to India easier by offering more border posts, and making getting visas easier. Travel across Kashmir itself might be made easier depending on how Pakistan behaves at the summit. There is talk of reestablishing the road and rail links to allow separated Kashmiris to travel across the borders once more.
The most interesting part is how differently both countries perceive the summit. Pakistan thinks that the discussion is going to be only about Kashmir. India sees the summit as a chance to talk about relations in general. My feeling is that Kashmir will figure only to the extent that India wants to make it easier for Pres. Musharraf to back down from the issue. I doubt that Pakistan would be able to get India to declare its portion of Kashmir as ``disputed`` territory, without a mention of ``Pakistan occupied`` Kashmir figuring prominently also. A lot could be achieved for the people of the subcontinent though if peace is restored, and especially for the Kashmiris because India seems ready to give them a lot of TLC to help them heal themselves and their economy.
-narain
I must commend you for a very fair article. So where do we go from here? To me it seems that the Indian strategy for the summit seems to be to:
1. Get Pakistan to choose peace.
2. lower the heat in Kashmir, put the issue on the usual backburner and allow India to work on restoring peace in its own part.
3. Get the LOC accepted as the international border in the long term once tempers have cooled down on both sides of the border.
Sops which would be offered to Pakistan to accept India`s terms would include:
1. Demilitarization of Siachen (hence the urgency to get the DGMOs to meet?)
2. Gas pipeline through Pakistan
3. Increased trade opportunities, possibly on unilaterally preferential terms.
To apply more pressure on Pakistan, India is already using various ``feel good`` mechanisms like making travel to India easier by offering more border posts, and making getting visas easier. Travel across Kashmir itself might be made easier depending on how Pakistan behaves at the summit. There is talk of reestablishing the road and rail links to allow separated Kashmiris to travel across the borders once more.
The most interesting part is how differently both countries perceive the summit. Pakistan thinks that the discussion is going to be only about Kashmir. India sees the summit as a chance to talk about relations in general. My feeling is that Kashmir will figure only to the extent that India wants to make it easier for Pres. Musharraf to back down from the issue. I doubt that Pakistan would be able to get India to declare its portion of Kashmir as ``disputed`` territory, without a mention of ``Pakistan occupied`` Kashmir figuring prominently also. A lot could be achieved for the people of the subcontinent though if peace is restored, and especially for the Kashmiris because India seems ready to give them a lot of TLC to help them heal themselves and their economy.
-narain
#14 Posted by temporal on July 9, 2001 7:09:25 pm
SameerJB #8
I did a double take as I read your post...checked to make sure it is from you...kya baat hay yaar?...having an off day?
[...Opening up new visa centers along the southern Pakistani border by India and relaxation of visa process really helps Indian Muslim from UP, Bihar to migrate to Pakistan alongwith refugees from Bangladesh....] and [...Those who were born in UP or Bihar must have a right to visit their birthplace not their grandchildren who otherwise detest at the smallest hint of a Punjabi wishing to take pride in Punjabiat. My small wish and preference of Lahore/ Punjabi over Agra/ Urdu/ Hindi was termed as undoing of Pakistan...]
---first of all...i believe firmly that the suspicions and hostilities of the last 50+ years would only whither away and dissolve if people travel...remember the tired cliché?...travel broadens the mind?...it also lessens the suspicions and hostilities...travel between india/pakistan should be like between canada/usa...as for fears of refugees and illegal economic migrants...well..what can we say right now?...despite restrictions don`t we have illegal migrants in pakistan from sri lankan maids to bangladeshis and afghans?... as for your wish and preference for punjabi...yaar kamal kartay ho...yahaan per joshilay jahiloun aur bigots ki koi kami hay?...bhooNknay dou oonhaiN...wohi zab’t ka muzahira karo jou hum riwayatuN aap say waabista kartay chalay aai haiN
[... Other than New Delhi, Pakistan does not need to open another visa centers in India. ...]
---agree...all citizens should be allowed to travel freely without visas...
[... We already have so much problem from Afghan refugees (they must be sent back) and can not afford another flood of Muslim refugees from UP, Bihar, Bangladesh and stranded Biharis in BD...]
---agree...though even the US and Canada as indeed all G7 countries have failed to stem the flow of illegal migrants...people will always find a way to travel to greener pastures...
...I sincerely hope you will take a second look and re-visit your thoughts at a later time?
rgds,
t
I did a double take as I read your post...checked to make sure it is from you...kya baat hay yaar?...having an off day?
[...Opening up new visa centers along the southern Pakistani border by India and relaxation of visa process really helps Indian Muslim from UP, Bihar to migrate to Pakistan alongwith refugees from Bangladesh....] and [...Those who were born in UP or Bihar must have a right to visit their birthplace not their grandchildren who otherwise detest at the smallest hint of a Punjabi wishing to take pride in Punjabiat. My small wish and preference of Lahore/ Punjabi over Agra/ Urdu/ Hindi was termed as undoing of Pakistan...]
---first of all...i believe firmly that the suspicions and hostilities of the last 50+ years would only whither away and dissolve if people travel...remember the tired cliché?...travel broadens the mind?...it also lessens the suspicions and hostilities...travel between india/pakistan should be like between canada/usa...as for fears of refugees and illegal economic migrants...well..what can we say right now?...despite restrictions don`t we have illegal migrants in pakistan from sri lankan maids to bangladeshis and afghans?... as for your wish and preference for punjabi...yaar kamal kartay ho...yahaan per joshilay jahiloun aur bigots ki koi kami hay?...bhooNknay dou oonhaiN...wohi zab’t ka muzahira karo jou hum riwayatuN aap say waabista kartay chalay aai haiN
[... Other than New Delhi, Pakistan does not need to open another visa centers in India. ...]
---agree...all citizens should be allowed to travel freely without visas...
[... We already have so much problem from Afghan refugees (they must be sent back) and can not afford another flood of Muslim refugees from UP, Bihar, Bangladesh and stranded Biharis in BD...]
---agree...though even the US and Canada as indeed all G7 countries have failed to stem the flow of illegal migrants...people will always find a way to travel to greener pastures...
...I sincerely hope you will take a second look and re-visit your thoughts at a later time?
rgds,
t
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