The Indo-Pak Summit, Kashmir and the Taj Mahal
Ras Siddiqui July 8, 2001
#126 Posted by Eklavya on July 25, 2001 2:13:21 am
re: Binifer # 128
You are most welcome, lady. Both all of us at Chowk and anNy are lucky to have a friend like you.
The prayers of everyone at Chowk are with your friend. We are waiting to have her ebullient self back with us asap.
You are most welcome, lady. Both all of us at Chowk and anNy are lucky to have a friend like you.
The prayers of everyone at Chowk are with your friend. We are waiting to have her ebullient self back with us asap.
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#125 Posted by ZafarA on July 25, 2001 2:13:21 am
Reply Harimau #129
Harimau
Not sure about your point.
Urdu is a language - it can be written in several different scripts, including devnagiri. I think you`re referring to the use of the modified Arabic script in which Urdu is traditionally written. And don`t street signs etc. in the South also have Southern scripts on them as well? (Kannada script in Bangalore, etc. I may well be confusing the script and the language here - sorry, don`t know the separate name, if any, for the script used to write Kannada.)
Anyway, the Arabic script is also used on street signs in Delhi. I think this is at least partly a political gesture which says that Urdu (and by extension the Muslim culture which it is erroneously largely associated with) are not from somewhere else, they are indigenously Indian and have a place there. I for one appreciate the gesture. (I think Gurmukhi is also used, at least in some places in Delhi. And probably for similar reasons.)
As for South Indians and IT - I can`t argue. Southies rule! (Btw, all my South Indian friends claim that this has more to do with brains than language. But since I am a Northie I can`t tell if they are just joking or serious.)
Zafar
Harimau
Not sure about your point.
Urdu is a language - it can be written in several different scripts, including devnagiri. I think you`re referring to the use of the modified Arabic script in which Urdu is traditionally written. And don`t street signs etc. in the South also have Southern scripts on them as well? (Kannada script in Bangalore, etc. I may well be confusing the script and the language here - sorry, don`t know the separate name, if any, for the script used to write Kannada.)
Anyway, the Arabic script is also used on street signs in Delhi. I think this is at least partly a political gesture which says that Urdu (and by extension the Muslim culture which it is erroneously largely associated with) are not from somewhere else, they are indigenously Indian and have a place there. I for one appreciate the gesture. (I think Gurmukhi is also used, at least in some places in Delhi. And probably for similar reasons.)
As for South Indians and IT - I can`t argue. Southies rule! (Btw, all my South Indian friends claim that this has more to do with brains than language. But since I am a Northie I can`t tell if they are just joking or serious.)
Zafar
#124 Posted by Binifer on July 24, 2001 9:22:59 pm
Hello Mr.Shankar
The infuential bum did everything (rishta, asking out e.t.c) and when he got no lift he resorted to these tactics.
And due to her crazy sense of humor, anN agrees entirely with your finding the episode funny. She cracked up the second she gained consciousness. Says her life has become a `haseen imtizaaj` of tragedy and comedy :--)
Eklavya: Thank you:--)
The infuential bum did everything (rishta, asking out e.t.c) and when he got no lift he resorted to these tactics.
And due to her crazy sense of humor, anN agrees entirely with your finding the episode funny. She cracked up the second she gained consciousness. Says her life has become a `haseen imtizaaj` of tragedy and comedy :--)
Eklavya: Thank you:--)
#123 Posted by harimau on July 24, 2001 9:22:59 pm
Ref Studebaker #: 123
[Older generation like our first president Dr.Rajender Prasad went to his village madrsah first.Many of them read urdu ,but that was then.]
For what it is worth, the fact is that railway station names in UP and Bihar are written in English, Devnagari and Urdu scripts so that people can read station names in whatever script they are familiar with.
Let us not add the decline of Urdu to the list of Indian Muslim woes. Urdu started declining long before independence. If you guys want Urdu to be a premier language, you will end up in the same state that UP and Bihar are in. They clung to Hindi, the South Indians resisted and stuck to English, and the Southies are the IT code jockeys to the world today.
[Older generation like our first president Dr.Rajender Prasad went to his village madrsah first.Many of them read urdu ,but that was then.]
For what it is worth, the fact is that railway station names in UP and Bihar are written in English, Devnagari and Urdu scripts so that people can read station names in whatever script they are familiar with.
Let us not add the decline of Urdu to the list of Indian Muslim woes. Urdu started declining long before independence. If you guys want Urdu to be a premier language, you will end up in the same state that UP and Bihar are in. They clung to Hindi, the South Indians resisted and stuck to English, and the Southies are the IT code jockeys to the world today.
#120 Posted by Eklavya on July 21, 2001 6:07:46 pm
shankar # 124, binifer,
Could we not have people`s personal lives be made the stuff of Chowk gossip and the source of everybody`s amusement, please?
We are all grateful to Binifer for letting us know of the accident. Beyond that, for God`s sake, lets respect people`s privacy!
Shankar bhai and others, please. Even if you disagree with what I wrote, let`s end it right here. As gentlemen and ladies, we have no right to discuss ladies` private lives behind their back. No further interacts on this topic, please.
Thank you.
Could we not have people`s personal lives be made the stuff of Chowk gossip and the source of everybody`s amusement, please?
We are all grateful to Binifer for letting us know of the accident. Beyond that, for God`s sake, lets respect people`s privacy!
Shankar bhai and others, please. Even if you disagree with what I wrote, let`s end it right here. As gentlemen and ladies, we have no right to discuss ladies` private lives behind their back. No further interacts on this topic, please.
Thank you.
#119 Posted by shankar on July 21, 2001 1:19:13 pm
binifer,
Thanks for the update on anNy. We miss her & hope she recovers fully.
If I understood your post correctly, the two of you are currently living in Pakistan. She was a victim of stalking from a lovelorn influential bum. If he was so smitten by her, why could`nt her influential dad do the right thing & approach her parents for her hand in marriage to their son? Too late for that, now.
If the above question is too personal, please disregard it.
Too bad some romeos in the subcontinent try to ``line-marao`` ladies like hindi movie heros. Its those bloody bollywood movies!
Alas, if the result was`nt so tragic, that episode could actually be funny.
Thanks for the update on anNy. We miss her & hope she recovers fully.
If I understood your post correctly, the two of you are currently living in Pakistan. She was a victim of stalking from a lovelorn influential bum. If he was so smitten by her, why could`nt her influential dad do the right thing & approach her parents for her hand in marriage to their son? Too late for that, now.
If the above question is too personal, please disregard it.
Too bad some romeos in the subcontinent try to ``line-marao`` ladies like hindi movie heros. Its those bloody bollywood movies!
Alas, if the result was`nt so tragic, that episode could actually be funny.
#118 Posted by Studebaker on July 17, 2001 3:35:10 pm
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#117 Posted by xxabbu on July 17, 2001 1:21:40 am
Studebaker Rajasthan Madrasah results :
Nice post - I must confess this came as a surprise to me. This sounds very impressive - how come more people dont know about it? I think news items like this should be published across the mainstream media - not just on Chowk or AFMI.
It is also very encouraging from an educationist point of view - I have always believed that socially and culturally relevant learning (as presumably provided in Madrasahs) must be more effective than standardized learning. Unfortunately, the experience in India has so far not supported this belief. I saw this in action in rural Thailand, where I was a volunteer teacher for a short duration. I kept thinking why is it that a curriculum designed around religious (buddhist) and cultural tradition works in Thailand, but not in India. Hope to hear more such success stories in the future!
Regards.
Nice post - I must confess this came as a surprise to me. This sounds very impressive - how come more people dont know about it? I think news items like this should be published across the mainstream media - not just on Chowk or AFMI.
It is also very encouraging from an educationist point of view - I have always believed that socially and culturally relevant learning (as presumably provided in Madrasahs) must be more effective than standardized learning. Unfortunately, the experience in India has so far not supported this belief. I saw this in action in rural Thailand, where I was a volunteer teacher for a short duration. I kept thinking why is it that a curriculum designed around religious (buddhist) and cultural tradition works in Thailand, but not in India. Hope to hear more such success stories in the future!
Regards.
#116 Posted by soysauce on July 16, 2001 7:07:17 pm
#119 rozaiba
Chowkidars, like everyone else, desire job security. What better way to accomplish that than keep the fires of conflict raging?
The talks have failed (not surprisingly) and Musharraff, as has been made amply clear, has an one-point agenda: kashmir.
His monomaniacal infatuation with kashmir has not been made clear. Does he, unlike Sameer and others, believe that the only way to control the jihadis is to deliver what they want? Is he acting in the best interests of pakistan? Is he acting in the best interests of his constituency? I think the latter, for the reason mentioned before and perhaps, so long as the jihadis are busy elsewhere, they wouldn`t pose such a big problem to the pakistani civil society. That may be the theory anyway.
As a south indian, my interest in pakistan is more as a neighbor who is having an impact on my country. I have very little in common culturally with the pakistanis. If it weren`t for the conflict my interest in pakistan would be comparable to my interest in bangladesh, nepal & even srilanka - very little.
Chowkidars, like everyone else, desire job security. What better way to accomplish that than keep the fires of conflict raging?
The talks have failed (not surprisingly) and Musharraff, as has been made amply clear, has an one-point agenda: kashmir.
His monomaniacal infatuation with kashmir has not been made clear. Does he, unlike Sameer and others, believe that the only way to control the jihadis is to deliver what they want? Is he acting in the best interests of pakistan? Is he acting in the best interests of his constituency? I think the latter, for the reason mentioned before and perhaps, so long as the jihadis are busy elsewhere, they wouldn`t pose such a big problem to the pakistani civil society. That may be the theory anyway.
As a south indian, my interest in pakistan is more as a neighbor who is having an impact on my country. I have very little in common culturally with the pakistanis. If it weren`t for the conflict my interest in pakistan would be comparable to my interest in bangladesh, nepal & even srilanka - very little.
#115 Posted by rozaiba on July 16, 2001 10:55:35 am
Saminashah and Sameer,
The couple of times I tried to have a dialogue with indian friends, we hit a dead end in a matter of minutes if not seconds. So we talk about everything else except Kashmir. There are many episodes in the history books over the past fifty years that continue to haunt us. Naturally I cannot stand it when the only words an Indian friend will use to describe the situation in Kashmir is ¡¥cross-border terrorism¡¦ (referring to Pakistan). And that is enough for each side to lock onto their positions and start a dual that has no results. That¡¦s why I feel and hope much for some process to start so Kashmir doesn¡¦t continue to crop up again and again to disrupt despite so many other areas Pakistanis and Indians can talk amicably about. There is a desire to get something- anything done on Kashmir once and for all. The young mistrust the Indian gvt. like other age groups. But detest the fact that the ¡¥chowkidars¡¦ of Pakistan eat up so much of the revenues. That is the main reason I (and others) desire to see a solution to Kashmir ¡V whatever it may be. SameerJB, you hit a mark by talking about the taxes increased to maintain wrong priorities. Self-determination has no rationale- by neither does taxing a people into poverty. It¡¦s the latter that affects Pakistan.
What can be the vehicles to cross-border dialogues? Music for me is one area that transcends borders and religions. Poetry and literature are other areas.
When one looks at it, after all has been said and done, after a solution to Kashmir has been found, Kashmir isn¡¦t going to fly off to another world. It will remain exactly where it is in the subcontinent. It¡¦s economy, politics, society will depend upon the subcontinent. It will still be just as much a part of the region as it always has been. Even after thousands of lives have been lost, and hundreds of millions have crossed to the wrong side of the poverty line. All because of India¡¦s bloated ego and self-serving and selfish desires of Pakistani chowkidars.
It¡¦s been a while since I read Brecht¡¦s ¡¥Mother Courage¡¦. The mother is happy that there is a war since she can make use of the fighting to help raise her kids by selling and trading goods on both sides on her cart. As the war drags one by one she loses her children to it. By the time she realizes it, she¡¦s lost all her children to the very war she saw as a great opportunity. Let¡¦s hope that the chowkidars of Pakistan (and the ego of Indian government) don¡¦t persist with these selfish desires like Mother Courage.
The couple of times I tried to have a dialogue with indian friends, we hit a dead end in a matter of minutes if not seconds. So we talk about everything else except Kashmir. There are many episodes in the history books over the past fifty years that continue to haunt us. Naturally I cannot stand it when the only words an Indian friend will use to describe the situation in Kashmir is ¡¥cross-border terrorism¡¦ (referring to Pakistan). And that is enough for each side to lock onto their positions and start a dual that has no results. That¡¦s why I feel and hope much for some process to start so Kashmir doesn¡¦t continue to crop up again and again to disrupt despite so many other areas Pakistanis and Indians can talk amicably about. There is a desire to get something- anything done on Kashmir once and for all. The young mistrust the Indian gvt. like other age groups. But detest the fact that the ¡¥chowkidars¡¦ of Pakistan eat up so much of the revenues. That is the main reason I (and others) desire to see a solution to Kashmir ¡V whatever it may be. SameerJB, you hit a mark by talking about the taxes increased to maintain wrong priorities. Self-determination has no rationale- by neither does taxing a people into poverty. It¡¦s the latter that affects Pakistan.
What can be the vehicles to cross-border dialogues? Music for me is one area that transcends borders and religions. Poetry and literature are other areas.
When one looks at it, after all has been said and done, after a solution to Kashmir has been found, Kashmir isn¡¦t going to fly off to another world. It will remain exactly where it is in the subcontinent. It¡¦s economy, politics, society will depend upon the subcontinent. It will still be just as much a part of the region as it always has been. Even after thousands of lives have been lost, and hundreds of millions have crossed to the wrong side of the poverty line. All because of India¡¦s bloated ego and self-serving and selfish desires of Pakistani chowkidars.
It¡¦s been a while since I read Brecht¡¦s ¡¥Mother Courage¡¦. The mother is happy that there is a war since she can make use of the fighting to help raise her kids by selling and trading goods on both sides on her cart. As the war drags one by one she loses her children to it. By the time she realizes it, she¡¦s lost all her children to the very war she saw as a great opportunity. Let¡¦s hope that the chowkidars of Pakistan (and the ego of Indian government) don¡¦t persist with these selfish desires like Mother Courage.
#114 Posted by Studebaker on July 16, 2001 10:55:35 am
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#113 Posted by ShirinAhmed on July 16, 2001 10:55:35 am
Binifer,
please give a big hug to anNY from me .Hope she is on the mend.Our prayers and good wishes for a quick and complete recovery are with her [Aamen ].
What a thing to happen. I would love to see severe action being taken on this case !
Love,
sa:)
P.S. Please take her a slice of after eight chocolate cheese-cake, from my side !she loves that ... we will settle the IOU amongst ourselves !
please give a big hug to anNY from me .Hope she is on the mend.Our prayers and good wishes for a quick and complete recovery are with her [Aamen ].
What a thing to happen. I would love to see severe action being taken on this case !
Love,
sa:)
P.S. Please take her a slice of after eight chocolate cheese-cake, from my side !she loves that ... we will settle the IOU amongst ourselves !
#112 Posted by xxabbu on July 16, 2001 12:19:11 am
Studebaker,
I have thought a bit about the madressa thing since reading your post. DO you think a bit of credible self-vigilence and standardization of curriculum by concerned muslim authorities will help mitigate the problem? I believe the main factor in all this mistrust and paranoia is that the govt / right wingers dont know what exactly is being taught and by whom. Maybe the Muslim Law Board, or the Waqf boards or respected religious seminaries could take the lead in this regard? Dont know how long this board is gonna go on; feel free to reply on any current board you are visiting, if not this one.
I have thought a bit about the madressa thing since reading your post. DO you think a bit of credible self-vigilence and standardization of curriculum by concerned muslim authorities will help mitigate the problem? I believe the main factor in all this mistrust and paranoia is that the govt / right wingers dont know what exactly is being taught and by whom. Maybe the Muslim Law Board, or the Waqf boards or respected religious seminaries could take the lead in this regard? Dont know how long this board is gonna go on; feel free to reply on any current board you are visiting, if not this one.
#111 Posted by Studebaker on July 15, 2001 7:51:05 pm
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