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Reply #: 52

``nasah.......Dear Sameer:``]

Musharaf did placebo medicine on a terminal patient

All(most)Indians & misguided Pakistanis(who have no idea about common indians life)seem to me forgetting so soon that India occupies Kashmir ILLEGALLY.O.K. You may have accession papers from Hari Singh but two points nullify it 1)IT was too late & Ineffective because just b/c Monarchy oriented Britain of 47 says that the RAJA is gouing to decide the fate of millions of subjects flies into the face of democratic wave ever since 47 & 2)increases in tempo past 60s & here we are talking about new mellinium,& some Hari Singhs word will stay when the Mightier Moghuls & British have been packed & sent away.

So what is it .Ther fact is

1/ India occupies Kashmir by sheer force

2/ if India was a smaller country or smaller army ,it would have been evicted by the will of the people who live there.

3/Why blame Musharaf for the failure ,it is Indias obstinacy & ``hat dharmi`` that was expected & did happen,I dont think in Pakistan expected anything as Pakistanis understand Indian leaders better than dumb average gullible bhaiya indians.

4/Musharaff was like that dr, in movie Aanand dr. Bhasker who never believed his friend Anand will recover from Lymphosarcoma of the intestine.But when you have run out of all options you do silly things.Consider this Agra Summit as silly as giving homoeopathy to terminal case of cancer.

Call me stupid but in desperartion Musharaff did what he had to do,otherwise you would have blamed him for everything for not extending hand of friendship.Pakistanis have always been in the forefront of friendship.

5/ It is the hardliner Sangh Parivar who are most gleeful to learn that Agra summit was failure ,they dont want to have friendship with Pakistan,with there neumerical advantage ,& POSSESSION of Kashmir ,they are like the ``goonda`` in possession taunting the poor passenger to dare take there luggage back from them ,when there is no sign of law enforcement anywhere.

Reply #: 52

``nasah.......Dear Sameer:``]

Musharaf did placebo medicine on a terminal patient

All(most)Indians & misguided Pakistanis(who have no idea about common indians life)seem to me forgetting so soon that India occupies Kashmir ILLEGALLY.O.K. You may have accession papers from Hari Singh but two points nullify it 1)IT was too late & Ineffective because just b/c Monarchy oriented Britain of 47 says that the RAJA is gouing to decide the fate of millions of subjects flies into the face of democratic wave ever since 47 & 2)increases in tempo past 60s & here we are talking about new mellinium,& some Hari Singhs word will stay when the Mightier Moghuls & British have been packed & sent away.

So what is it .Ther fact is

1/ India occupies Kashmir by sheer force

2/ if India was a smaller country or smaller army ,it would have been evicted by the will of the people who live there.

3/Why blame Musharaf for the failure ,it is Indias obstinacy & ``hat dharmi`` that was expected & did happen,I dont think in Pakistan expected anything as Pakistanis understand Indian leaders better than dumb average gullible bhaiya indians.

4/Musharaff was like that dr, in movie Aanand dr. Bhasker who never believed his friend Anand will recover from Lymphosarcoma of the intestine.But when you have run out of all options you do silly things.Consider this Agra Summit as silly as giving homoeopathy to terminal case of cancer.

Call me stupid but in desperartion Musharaff did what he had to do,otherwise you would have blamed him for everything for not extending hand of friendship.Pakistanis have always been in the forefront of friendship.

5/ It is the hardliner Sangh Parivar who are most gleeful to learn that Agra summit was failure ,they dont want to have friendship with Pakistan,with there neumerical advantage ,& POSSESSION of Kashmir ,they are like the ``goonda`` in possession taunting the poor passenger to dare take there luggage back from them ,when there is no sign of law enforcement anywhere.

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Dear Sameer:



“ India`s acceptance of Kashmir as main or core dispute or issue between India/ Pakistan relationship is tantamount to Indian concession for no special reason. Any such concession, although desirable for Pakistan, actually has more negative consequences for secular and liberal Pakistanis. A concession from India is a perceived victory for Musharraf with no real benefit for Pakistanis. Such a move would have boasted the moral of jehadis as if their activities are bearing fruits. A prolonged agony under military dictator, an increase in the jehadi activities in Pakistan and abroad and reemergence of otherwise declining obsession with Kashmir issue would have been the natural consequences of Indian concession on Kashmir”.

You are exactly right. A very astute analysis, indeed.

As I had predicted in my earlier post -- by boxing himself in on ‘Kashmir and Kashmir alone’ -- what Mr. Musharraf wanted is to pull this time -- a diplomatic Kargil -- in Delhi.

And just like the old Kargil it ended up in yet another disaster -- the Delhi Disaster.

Without mincing words I must say that -- the fault for the failure of the summit lies squarely on the shoulders of the Soldier Musharraf -- and nobody else – who turned out to be a poor soldier in Kargil -- and a poor diplomat in Delhi.

The passive aggressive Indians had bent backwards to accommodate Mr. Musharraf and his inflated ego – which the Indians themselves had further inflated by “good morning Mr. President”.

Yes the passive aggressive Indians forgave him for the unnecessary Kargil killings of theirs and the Pakistani’s kids. They forgave him for destroying democracy in Pakistan, they forgave him for brandishing nuclear weapons to draw “world attention” on Kashmir, they forgave him for doubling and tripling the killing fields in Kashmir, they even retracted their demand that violence in Kashmir should stop before talks can be started.

Yet Mr. Musharraf and his cottiers of generals and advisors kept raising the stakes and poisoning the soup – by breaking the protocol of inviting guests without asking the hosts – by not including any trade and commerce ministers in the entourage -- by insisting on Kashmir and Kashmir alone – nothing else.

And this was supposed to be the so-called ‘open mind’ of Mr. Musharraf.

The straw that broke the camel’s back ( I am glad it did) is that in the very same weekend while the two sides were eating pilaf, qorma and kebab in Delhi, professing peace -- the killings in Kashmir were quadrupled with 90 lives lost.

What was that for? – to show the world that the Indians capitulated because the great strategist Mr. Musharraf had increased the level of violence the same weekend?

For that matter Mr. Musharraf could have as well met Mr. Vajpayee in Paniput – instead of Agra.

So in the first Peace Exam of the subcontinent – by wasting all their limited exam period on the most difficult question Kashmir, first – Mr. Musharraf gets F and Mr. Vajpayee gets C.

Hopefully in the next exam the two candidates will do better by doing the easy questions first.

And hopefully by the next exam the examinees from Pakistan side would be a legitimately elected CIVILIAN head of the government not some egotistical evangelical general.

Soldiers are not cut out either for governing or for diplomacy.

Peace.

#51 tahmed321

``Another point: I see lots of posts on chowk on how great things are in India and how Pakistan is the pits. Please explain to me, therefore, the fact that despite everything, when all is said and done, there are millions of people from Bangladesh, from India and from Afghanistan who are trying to get into Pakistan and live there, and virtually no Pakistani who is struggling to get there. ``

Why the afghans go to pakistan is quite clear. But the bit about indians is news to me. Where did you get this from? How are the indians getting there - you mean kashmiris? Do you mean the indians who are being trained by the LeT and Hizb? Please enlighten.

You are quite the fool tahmed. No has claimed india is a land of milk and honey. What Sadhana has been arguing is that it is not sufficient (indeed it is foolish) to rely on the inherent goodness of people to run a civil society. It is necessary to have legal safeguards to ensure that things are left standing despite beastly tendencies by members of the society. Most pakistanis including you seem to poohpooh this. Good for you as long as you are at the giving end. But when you are at the receiving end, the inherent human kindness is not going to save you.

Instead of answering Sadhana (tenacious, isn`t she) you take shelter under silly hypotheses.

hamidm #45 ``the fault, dear hobbyty, is not in our stars, but in ourselves that we are underlings ``

Actually, for once I think the stars do have something to do with our problems and we can stop flagellating ourselves. Hitler came to power in Germany and lead them into a disastrous war not because Germans are cowards or stupid. Kings and feudals did not impose their will on people in every part of the world until the the 19th century because previous generations were cowardly or stupid.

Another point: I see lots of posts on chowk on how great things are in India and how Pakistan is the pits. Please explain to me, therefore, the fact that despite everything, when all is said and done, there are millions of people from Bangladesh, from India and from Afghanistan who are trying to get into Pakistan and live there, and virtually no Pakistani who is struggling to get there.

I am not saying that the situation will not change in fifteen years if India keeps growing at 3-4 basis points more than Pakistan, but it has not happened yet. So, dont get carried away too easily by popular wisdom on chowk.

#48 Bapu quotes:

``Before the late-night statement, the mood in the Pakistani camp

was euphoric. The impression was that history was being created

in the shadow of the Taj.``

The summit went predictably. Unless Vajpayee had some information via track II that Mushy was going to change his tune, the whole thing was expected. What was the pak camp euphoric about?

All Vajpayee has done is legitimize a dictator. It may be true that only the pak army is the real power and any accord that does not have its blessings is doomed. But THIS army and this dictator know only one tune. Vajpayee would be wasting his time going to islamabad. India should demand that civilian rule be restored in pakistan. India should try its best to strengthen a civilian government there by making concessions to it. No concessions to Mushy. Down with the dictator!

Dear Bapu:

Sushma Swaraj is certainly not ``my`` Disnformation Minister.

In my view alongwith Advani she is still part of that unreformed Bamiyani criminals who destroyed a historical monument and a religious symbol -- the Babri Masjid -- and are still running free from law.

Dear Sarwar:

Thanks for the post.

My salute to Imam Bukhari for puncturing the delusional bubble of Mr. Geelani`s self promotion. Kashmir is NOT the personal property of Mr. Geelani and his Hurriyet ``handfuls``.

#31

NASAH

First .look at your esteemed Minister of Information Shushma Swaraj ex mayor of your home town & Bjp big wig in the NAD cabinet.For an Information Minister to give DISINFORMATION of this proportion to cause rattling of media right across the border to Pakistan should be Blashphemous;)))))

SUSHMA GIFTS PAK KASHMIR EXCUSE



FROM IDREES BAKHTIAR



Agra, July 15:

Promiscuous with words, information minister Sushma Swaraj brought forth a stinging midnight response from the Pakistani side to her careless comment that cross-border terrorism had been discussed during the summit-level talks today.

Breaking the day-long diplomatic secrecy, for which Swaraj set the stage, the unilateral statement by Pakistan¡¦s spokesman claimed that ¡§Kashmir had been the focus of discussion in the one-to-one meeting held between the President of Pakistan and the Prime Minister of India¡¨.

Pervez Musharraf is understood to have immediately sought a meeting with Atal Bihari Vajpayee after Swaraj¡¦s remarks on television. Worried about the impact back home, Pakistani officials issued a denial on PTV for the consumption of the domestic audience.

Pakistan spokesman Rashid Quereshi¡¦s late-night statement was a riposte to Swaraj¡¦s claim in the afternoon that four subjects were discussed in the one-to-one talks between Vajpayee and Musharraf in their pre-lunch meeting, one of these being the touchy topic of alleged cross-border terrorism.

¡§However, in her statement to the media she had omitted to mention the extensive discussions between the two leaders on Kashmir,¡¨ the statement said.

¡§President Pervez Musharraf had made it plain to his host that no progress could be made towards normalisation of relations between the two countries unless the issue of Kashmir was resolved in accordance with the wishes of the people of Kashmir,¡¨ the spokesman said.

Though the statement comes after Vajpayee and Musharraf have held two rounds of talks and there have been official and ministerial meetings, it cannot yet be construed as conclusive evidence that the talks are on the verge of breakdown.

Even if it is accepted that Musharraf made Kashmir the focus of discussions, the Pakistani spokesman indicated that Vajpayee had indeed sought to widen the ambit of the talks.

¡§However, the Prime Minister of India had referred to certain other issues in his opening remarks at the first plenary session. President Musharraf had responded that Pakistan was willing to discuss those issues as well but no other issue could be addressed unless the core issue was discussed and resolved. Progress on Kashmir had to be in tandem with progress on other issues,¡¨ the spokesman said.

Before the late-night statement, the mood in the Pakistani camp was euphoric. The impression was that history was being created in the shadow of the Taj.

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Nasah 31:

I was just browing through this article and the related interacts when I ran into your ``A fresh line in cosmetics.``

Haif...Sud Haif...

:(

Someone said it right, ``Never judge a book by its cover.``

Take Care.

hobbyty

``It is a mistake to see Mr. Musharraf and his team from the prism of radical Liberal ideology and conclude that he is the destroyer of democracy, it is his stated goal to save it.``

........ it is nice to be an optimist but this lack of belief in the principle of democracy has led us to where we are .... too many of us have been willing to suffer fools, prophets and dictators because we were either too lazy or too naive or just plain old stupid .....so now we are hoping that this idiot in khaki will be different from ayub and yahya and zia ....we are willing to believe that he is driven by patriotism and altruistic crap and will not give in to the venal traits that afflicted his predecessors ..... the people of pakistan are responsible for their own miseries because they lack the moral spine, gonads, courage and conviction to stand up for their rights .... we will follow anyone who raises the slogan of islam and democracy and then cry foul when they fail to deliver ....... at some point one has to drive a stake in the ground and stand up to be counted instead of dawdling and offering mealy-mouthed apologies for obvious sins ........

........ two years from now when musharraf is mysteriously killed and a new general takes over with backing from a turabi-wannabe we will again take to the streets and sing his praises ...... shame on us for being such fickle idiots ! ...... the fault, dear hobbyty, is not in our stars, but in ourselves that we are underlings ...........

Oops, sorry. Didn`t realize that the tyranny of the majority bit was also from the letter to the editor.

Re: Nasah #42

You are probably referring to J. S. Mill`s ``On Liberty.`` Unfortunately, we are not as advanced or as progressive, at least as far as free speech or thought is concerned, as Mill`s England was about a hundred and fifty years ago.

Regards.

The blasphemy lynching ``law`` in the Mulla land of Mr. P.(for progressive) Musharraf.

``False blasphemy charges

(a letter to the editor by a baffled Pakistani)

Recently I read the news that the daily Mohasib of Abbotabad had been banned and its editor and other staff had been arrested under the Blasphemy Law for publishing an article about the sanctity of the beard in Islam.

I got curious and procured the said article and have gone through it very minutely.

I am surprised that anyone who is in his right senses should have considered this article blasphemous.

It is a simple article in which the writer has merely stated that to the best of his knowledge of the Quran and Hadis he could not find anything in them enjoining upon the Muslims to wear a beard, that no doubt the Prophet (PBUH) and his companions did wear beards but in those days it was customary to wear one and all Mushriks, Christians and Jews wore beards.

He pleaded with the learned ulema to enlighten him on the subject lest he should have missed the lines in the Quran or the relevant Ahadis.

What was wrong with such a query? I do not think that seeking knowledge is blasphemous.

Someone has said that, of all the tyrannies the world has known, the tyranny of the public opinion is the worst. I cannot recollect his name, he is certainly right in saying so.

This brings to mind the case of Galleleo who was at the point of being burnt at the stakes for saying that the Earth was not the centre of the universe and revolved around the Sun and had to retract his scientific finding before the king and was made to swear that he was wrong and that the Earth did not revolve around the Sun but the Sun revolved around it (even though he mumbled at the same time that `nevertheless the Earth does revolve around the Sun` whereupon his detractors shouted that he was resiling from his oath but the king, who was apparently a wise one, spared his life saying that he had not heard the retraction.

However, while the mullahs and the masses may be excused for their ignorance and pitied and prayed for, what should we say about the functionaries of the state who also stoop down to their level?

Just imagine! A case has been registered against the staff of the daily paper and it has been banned in advance before it could be found guilty.

The people who have brought the charge of blasphemy against the newspaper and its editors and printers and the writer of the article are obviously themselves guilty of blasphemy because they are misrepresenting the Prophet (PBUH) and his teachings.

The Prophet (PBUH) never said that we should close our minds, nor does the Quran says so.

On the contrary both the Quran and the Prophet (PBUH) exhort the Muslims to inquire and apply their mind if they are in doubt about anything. These people are doing great disservice to Islam by this attitude towards it. May God have mercy upon us Pakistani Muslims.

I would expect that the press all over the country shall rise against such an attack on the freedom of the press and against such attempts to silence open thinking and will do whatever it can to help the innocent. At any rate the printers, publishers and editors, and the paper itself, are not to be blamed. At the most it is the writer who may have been booked under the Blasphemy Law.

SALAHUDDIN MIRZA

Karachi``(Dawn)

After that land of Jahilia Afghanistan -- only in Pakistan, folks.

Those illiterate Pakistani Talibans and their illiterate army administrators -- the cherished children of Mulla Omar.

As if the House of Islam is a House of Cards -- one whisper about the Prophet and the whole House will collapse into smithereens. Such stupendously insecure morons!

But, #33, dharma does not refer to any particular book, prophet, conception of god, ritual, place of worship, religion.

-Arun Gupta

Shammi, Nasah, Eklavya

You may also want to read ``Business Recorder``

It may lead to a deeper understanding of the kinds of structural changes Mr. Musharraf and his team are implementing.

In a year or so you find that these very same structural changes will find resonance in India.

Why, because they are necessary to help the State evolve. the structure of the state and the way in which the citizen relates, interacts with state is being changed, modernized.

Mr. Musharraf and his team can be seen as DODO, but what is the point of the proberial cursing of the darkness, Mr. Musharraf and his team are doing the heavy lifting that the civilian politicans have avoided for a decade. When his work is done, he will be gone, leaving a viable political and economic structure. Please do consider that he and his team are implementing reforms for which a considerable constituency exist. It is a mistake to see Mr. Musharraf and his team from the prism of radical Liberal ideology and conclude that he is the destroyer of democracy, it is his stated goal to save it.

You will see, in a year or two, the very same reforms will take place in India, the difference will be politicians who are willing to tell the Indian nation that these reforms are for the good of the nation and the state. Let us see how Indians will respond to notions of increasing the tax base, legitimizing and documenting the majority of the economy, disinvesting the State of the enterprises and subsidies.

Dear hamidm:

You`re exactly right:

``nawab sharif`s government, in spite of all its petty excesses, was still better than anything that the generals can hope to produce``.

Indeed it WAS BETTER than this strange anomaly called Army Dictatorship.

A strange creature -- an extinct DODO bird -- resurrected amidst the political flora fauna of the normal democratic world of the 21st century.

Do we find this DODO (Destroyer of Democracy) anywhere else except in Pakistan?

In a democracy when any political party gets elected with a two third majority it can do anything it wants to do and it will still be democratic and legal.

Just imagine if in USA, tomorrow, the Republican right-wingers are elected with two third majority in both Senate and Congress topped with a Republican right-winger President in the White House, what kind of havoc they would wreak on the political landscape of the United States for decades to come -- from the Supreme Court judiciary to the Justice Department -- from warmongering to the abolition of dept of education -- from the human rights abuses to taking away women’s rights -- from evangelization of the schools to book burnings -- yet all that will be legal and democratic.

Of course it couldn’t last for more than 2 to 4 years until the rascals will be thrown out -- by the US PUBLIC -- through another ELECTION – NOT by the United States Army.

Anybody having information on the corrupt activities of Mr. Rasheed Ahmed, Chairman Pilcorp

(Pakistan Industrial Leasing Corporation Limited)

is requested to post all details on the internet

and also communicate the same on the NAB site.

His inventory of plots in defense and cantonment, and sales transaction of these plots is known to us + some of his funds transfers. Information about his deposits overseas would be a great help in roping in this rascal and black sheep.

Individuals whose careers he screwed are pacifically invited to assist in this investigation. We dont keep grudges - we get even.

Nasah:

I agree. DAWN, indeed, is a very good paper and its Opinion staff one of the best. It is head and shoulders above any other English language Pakistani publication.

re: nasah # 34

Man, I agree whole-heartedly. I would also add the name of Ardeshir Cowasjee.

Dawn is one of those newspapers all of us South Asians can be proud of.

I forgot to mention the acknoledgment:

The two great columns by the two great Pakistani columnists were published in the one great Pakistani paper, DAWN.

Bless you DAWN.

With Pakistani columnists like Irfan Husain, Ayaz Amir, and a paper like DAWN, Pakistan will NEVER become a ``failed State``.

...... mushahid hussain is getting what he deserves - he should be tarred and feathered and paraded on a donkey ...BUT...... the principle that ANY elected government is better than the goons in khaki is still true ....... nawab sharif`s government, inspite of all its petty excesses, was still better than anything that the generals can hope to produce ........ and yes, we love the motorway and, thanks to shahbaz sharif, lahore definitely has better roads than detroit and delhi ........and please, let`s not talk about dr. ata and his clown act ....... maybe one day, after he has completed a thousand days of penance, mushahid hussain can join omar asghar, razak dawood and shaukat aziz in a cabinet headed by the mahdi ( or an adult ylh ) ...... maybe allah will rethink his khatm-i-nabowat decision

dear asfand:

Thanks for quoting the BJP Dharma business. It has a familiar ring to it.

Now here is your quote from a BJP Dharmatma:

``Let us understand very clearly that Dharma is not necessarily with the majority or with the people. Dharma is eternal. Therefore. in the definition of democracy to say that it is a government of the people. It is not enough, it has to be for the good of the people. What constitutes the good of the people. Dharma alone can decide. Therefore, a democratic Government ``Jana Rajya`` must also be rooted in Dharma i.e. a ``Dharma Rajya``. In the definition of `Democracy` viz. ``government of the people, by the people and for the people``, of stands for independence, `by` stands for democracy and `for` Indicates Dharma. Therefore, the true democracy is only where there is freedom as well as Dharma encompasses all these concepts.``

Now here is the same paragraph that could be from the other side of the divide, by an Iranian Ayatollah substituted with just one word, ISLAM:

``Let us understand very clearly that ISLAM is not necessarily with the majority or with the people. ISLAM is eternal. Therefore. in the definition of democracy to say that it is a government of the people. It is not enough, it has to be for the good of the people. What constitutes the good of the people. ISLAM alone can decide. Therefore, a democratic Government ``Awami Hukoomut`` must also be rooted in ISLAM i.e. an ``Islamic Hukoomut``. In the definition of `Democracy` viz. ``government of the people, by the people and for the people``, of stands for independence, `by` stands for democracy and `for` Indicates ISLAM. Therefore, the true democracy is only where there is freedom as well as ISLAM encompasses all these concepts.``

The pathetic BJP/RSS militant fundos are nothing but cheap imitators of equally pathetic, Islamic Talibani/Irani, fundos. Little difference. Isn’t funny they can speak exactly the same language - yet hate each other.

``mai aik hee paayee meeley paimaney bahut sey``

``The spirit of Southall

By Irfan Husain

Visiting London at a time when race riots are rife, and the newspapers are still referring darkly to pitch invasions by supporters of the Pakistani cricket team, it was natural to expect a certain amount of tension in racially mixed areas.

So it was a pleasant surprise to go to Southall, the ultimate example of a South Asian-dominated suburb.

I was there last twenty years ago when friends took us for a desi dinner. With its loud filmi music, its almost exclusively subcontinental faces and accents, and its spicy aromas, I understood why my son Shakir, then five years old, asked if we were back in Lahore. Since then, I have not been tempted to return for the reason so many Indians and Pakistanis go there: authentic desi food.

On my short visits to London, I prefer to check out the latest Italian and French restaurants.

But as it`s the mango season and the only mangoes I have found in Kensington are inferior African and Mexican varieties, I thought we would get the genuine articles from Southall.

So off we went on a warm Sunday mid-morning, following signs until we reached a bazaar scene straight out of the subcontinent. The vibrant colours, the loud music and the unique, mouth-watering smells of curries cooking were light years away from the bland, strait-laced British streets one normally walks through. In terms of atmosphere, I might easily have been in Karachi`s Saddar area, or Lahore`s old city.

However, the contrasts with the subcontinent soon became apparent: the streets, despite the crowds and the cacophony, were very clean; there were no beggars; and, above all, there were at least as many women as there were men, and nobody ogled them or made obnoxious remarks.

There was very little swagger or male macho on display. People shopped, ate at the many restaurants and generally went about their business without pushing, shoving or being unpleasant in any way.

Another major difference was the presence of so many communities in a relatively small area.

There were Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims shopping peacefully side by side; there were even a few token white and black Brits. Nobody was hassling anybody as we made our way up the main street.

The shops carried signs with names indicative of all the faiths practised in South Asia, and impartially drew customers from every region.

To complete this picture of ethnic diversity, there was even a (Halal) Chinese menu at the Punjab Karahi Centre we entered for lunch.

I thought we had been very clever by bringing a couple of cans of beer with us, but when I asked the waiter if we could open them, he whispered he would move us to a corner table if we were under a `compulsion to have a drink. I assured him there was no such `compulsion`, and got on with the business of ordering lunch. The nihari, the saag-gosht and the kebabs were all absolutely authentic, as was the lassi.

Outside the Punjab Karahi Centre stood a splendid Karachi bus decked out in bright colours and mythical beasts and shiny metal bits. passers-by gaped at it, and has themselves photographed standing next to this fine example of Pakistani folk art. The manager informed me that it had been driven to Turkey and shipped from there; it was used to transport baraats at weddings and was often hired for birthday parties.

We next bought a couple of kilos each of excellent chausa and sindhri mangoes for 10 pounds - hardly extravagant when considering their quality and transport costs. Finally, we bought some superb gulab jamans and gajar ka halwa from the Ambala Sweet House.

On our way home, we talked about how a microcosm of the best of the subcontinent had been so successfully created thousands of miles away.

For centuries, serious travellers and casual tourists have remarked on the marvellous cultural mosaic that invasions, conquests and migrations have created in South Asia.

The ethnic mix there is probably richer and more varied than in any comparable land mass, and apart from occasional religious and language riots triggered by chauvinistic individuals and parties, the different elements of the subcontinental mosaic have lived in relative peace and harmony.

This balance was disturbed by the system of separate electorates for Hindus and Muslims introduced by the British nearly a century ago, and this policy found its logical conclusion in the partition of 1947.

Since then, the forces of intolerance and chauvinism have gained ground in both India and Pakistan. They are far stronger in Pakistan as the latter was created in the name of religion, and despite the early secularizing influence of Mr Jinnah, its founding father, it has gone down the path of fundamentalism and enforced homogenization.

We have thus robbed ourselves of the happy medley of cultures and influences that enriched and informed our lives until not very long ago.

By trying to impose a rigidly uniform vision of Islam and an alien Middle Eastern culture on a basically multi- religious, multi-ethnic South Asian society, we have destroyed many of the threads that made up the fabric of a once-rich, vibrant and creative culture.

More and more, we define ourselves by our ``un-Indianess``, and in doing so, we hack away at our cultural roots.

And yet as my brief visit to Southall showed me, there is no fundamental problem in South Asians of different faiths living, working and praying next to each other.

Whether our political and religious leaders like it or not, the commonalties between the various communities of South Asia far outnumber the differences.

Unfortunately, over five decades of politically generated hostility and poisonous propaganda have taken their toll of tolerance and understanding on both sides of the border.

Two generations of brainwashed Indians and Pakistanis have grown up to blindly mistrust and even hate each other.

Nevertheless, these same young men and women become fast friends AWAY from the corrosive passions of the subcontinent.

Clearly, fifty-odd years of history cannot be forgotten or wished away. But if these wasted years are to serve any purpose, we need to draw lessons from them if we are not to be condemned to making the same mistakes.

The most important lesson is that it takes more than an artificially drawn line across the map to obliterate our rich cultural heritage.

The history of the subcontinent is one of religious conversions, inter-faith marriages and inter-cultural mingling on a vast scale.

To pretend that any part of this region is religiously or culturally `pure` is to delude oneself.

Finally, if South Asia is to play its rightful role on the world stage, its leaders have to remember there is great strength in diversity.

General Musharraf and Mr Vajpayee would do well to keep the SOUTHALL MODEL before them when they sit down to talk next week.``

God Bless you, Irfan Husain.

``A fresh line in cosmetics

By Ayaz Amir

If a college of cynics, duly certified as a professional body by its examiners, had been charged with the task to write a primer on how not to prepare for a summit, it could not have bettered the script followed by General Musharraf and his team of advisers.

Everyone and his uncle have been called for consultations with General Musharraf. There in the mock-ornate setting of the Prime Minister`s House (which Pakistan`s supreme ruler uses for his office) Pakistan Television`s captive audience has been treated evening after evening to shots of the general listening serious-eyed to his various callers regarding the line to take in the summit with Mr Vajpayee.

In the last few days no one could have been more free with press and TV interviews than the general. Is he hoping to conquer Agra with this media blitz? Are we getting ready for a circus or a serious round of talks?

Talking endlessly about the core issue is fine for a domestic audience. But it is doubtful whether it can have much effect on India.

In any case, it doesn`t hurt to keep things in perspective. Can we make the ground shift from under Mr Vajpayee`s feet? What leverage have we at our disposal to make India share our perceptions on Kashmir? To suppose even for a foolish moment that any serious plans about settling the Kashmir issue will be floated in Agra--Chenab formula or whatever--is to live in a wonderland of our own creation.

On offer at Agra will be a new range of cosmetics, or rather an old line of cosmetics wrapped in fresh paper: trade, travel, easing of visa restrictions, and the like. In other words, makeup or, at best, plastic surgery. No more. Not that in displaying this range India would be guilty of any particular deviousness. There is little we can do to change its marketing strategy.

Yes, India would like militancy to die down in Kashmir. Yes, a Kashmir on the boil hinders India`s march to great power status. Even so, we don`t exactly have India on the mat. As such we cannot wring from it any major concession. This is not rocket science but simple common sense. If Gen Musharraf`s planners are choosing to see it in a different light that`s their problem.

Ladies of fashion or beauty who are used to attention take compliments (and even passes) in their stride. In response to the Vajpayee invitation the Musharraf government has simply gone overboard.

Its tremulous state of excitement has been evident in the build-up to the summit--a build-up out of sync with what is on offer. If the mood in the Chief Executive`s office had been a trifle more restrained, expectations could have been pitched low, in which case even old perfume in new bottles could have counted as an achievement. With expectations pitched unrealistically high, the danger is that a sense of frustration and disillusionment could set in if no tangible progress is made on Kashmir.

It is no good saying amidst the hoopla and noise that we expect nothing dramatic from the summit. The build-up itself, and the CE`s relentless consultations and interviews, tell a different story. Mr Abdul Sattar will have a job on his hands once the pageantry is over. Having to look serious (not a difficult task for him) he will have to read deep and portentous meaning into the slim offerings at Agra. Unless of course the talks are to be blasted as a failure and India accused of intransigence. Which is unlikely, given the overall climate which is not conducive to such histrionics.

Not that India-Pakistan relations do not stand in need of a facelift. They do indeed. We need more trade and travel and other forms of exchange to lower the barriers of hostility and mistrust between us.

But while doing so, and making the best of a bad job, there is no need to fool ourselves. While we have a position on Kashmir-- and perish the thought we should ever abandon it--we lack the means to change the status quo to our advantage.

Nor is it likely that India will give away on the negotiating table what we have failed to wrest from it on the battlefield.

That Kashmir is disputed territory, its disputed status underwritten by UN resolutions, is not something writ on water but a fact carved in stone.

If the people of Kashmir do not want to have any truck with India, or if they want to strike out on their own, who are we to sell them down the river?

But at the same time no discernible purpose is served by remaining locked in a state of permanent hostility with India.

For our sake, if not India`s, we need to come out of the mental trenches of the past.

Trade will benefit both countries and perhaps Pakistan more than India. And reducing the burden of militarization will allow scarce resources to be put to more productive uses.

That is, if on both sides of the divide, the national security establishments which have a vested interest in the continuation of hostility permit such an outcome to emerge.

Look at the subcontinent`s poverty and then consider the pretensions on parade. The two things are a world apart.

A thousand hard-liners, however, from the comfort of their armchairs can be heard declaiming that peace and cooperation with India while the Kashmir dispute remains unresolved is an unthinkable proposition.

Why?

China`s unalterable claim to Taiwan does not stop it from having profitable links with Taiwan. Just as Hong Kong`s being a British colony did not prevent China from having extensive contacts with it.

Japan has never given up its claim to the four Northern Islands captured by Soviet troops at the end of the Second World War but that does not stop it from engaging with Russia in other spheres.

Why can`t we be similarly pragmatic? Why should sensible relations with India be considered tantamount to the loss of national manhood?

Let us overcome our internal problems, let us attain political stability and build a strong Pakistan.

Let us trade with India and try to reduce our absurd arms expenditure. And at the same time let us remain faithful to our position on Kashmir.

These three aims are not contradictory. Statesmanship lies not in playing zero-sum games (either/or) but in relating national goals to national strength.

Such a definition of statesmanship, however, flows from a calm way of looking at things.

The circus atmosphere allowed to grow around the Musharraf visit is the exact opposite of this mood.

What we are expecting from India regarding Kashmir is related more to our wishes than to the facts on the ground. When India does not accede to our wishfulness will we relapse into sullenness or seek refuge in false interpretations?

But caveats apart, let us count our blessings.

The momentum generated by this visit is all for the good for even fanfare and empty pageantry have their uses. After this visit, even if nothing else is achieved, it will not be easy for either side to revert that quickly to the rhetoric of the past.

Meanwhile, an important point worth remembering is about the peace clothes General Musharraf is wearing to India. They represent an enduring and not a passing phenomenon.

Musharraf`s foremost priority is consolidating his rule and giving it a democratic face-lift, plastic surgery being the rage in Pakistan as much as in India. For achieving this aim he has to be more politician than soldier.

Small wonder then if from the various corps headquarters right down to monitoring teams in the districts an intense effort is underway to choose the right kind of district nazims for the August 2 election.

There is nothing surreptitious about this process. Generals and brigadiers are openly telling candidates as to who is on board and who is not. General Musharraf has promised to devolve power to the grassroots.

Whether this promise is kept or not, grassroots interference by the army of the kind now being seen is a first for Pakistan.

This is democracy army-style and the sounds it is conveying are the birth pangs of a new Convention League to act as civilian handmaiden to another military strongman.

It is for outsiders--those who accuse Pakistan of adventurism-- to draw their own conclusions.

With the army leadership engaged in these political manoeuvres, it should be obvious to anyone that the army`s agenda is peace not war. There can be no better augury for the Agra summit.

I found this on BJP website today. Very interesting reading. This is an excerpt from Pandit Deendayal Upadhyaya who was one of the founding member of BJP. With this thinking I do not think Kashmir solution can be solved.

``Here in our country the situation in this regard is very much like old Hindu marriages where a married couple could not divorce even if both the parties wished. The principle was that their behavior should be regulated not by their sweet will but by Dharma. The same is case with the nation. If the four million people of Kashmir say that they want to secede, if the people of Goa say they want to secede, some say they want the Portuguese to return, all this is against Dharma. Of the 45 million people of India. even if 449,999,999 opt for something which is against Dharma, even then this does not become truth. On the other hand, even if a person stands for something which is according to Dharma, that constitutes truth because truth resides with Dharma. It is the duty of this one person that he tread the path of truth and change people. It is from this basis that persons drives the right to proceed according to Dharma.

Let us understand very clearly that Dharma is not necessarily with the majority or with the people. Dharma is eternal. Therefore. in the definition of democracy to say that it is a government of the people. It is not enough, it has to be for the good of the people. What constitutes the good of the people. Dharma alone can decide. Therefore, a democratic Government ``Jana Rajya`` must also be rooted in Dharma i.e. a ``Dharma Rajya``. In the definition of `Democracy` viz. ``government of the people, by the people and for the people``, of stands for independence, `by` stands for democracy and `for` Indicates Dharma. Therefore, the true democracy is only where there is freedom as well as Dharma encompasses all these concepts.``

Asfand Siddiqui

Sacramento CA

SameerJB:

Quick question. It seems obvious that you are from West Punjab, and seem to know a bit of the area. Are you familiar with Chakwal, more specifically a village called Bhaun? Nobody seems to have heard about it, except one refernce to it in a column by Ayaz Amir, who I believe is from Chakwal. Does this place still exist??

SameerJB

`Sir, your government was better than current one on every count except for Shariaat Bill which is perhaps going to be matched by current rulers by Hisba sh/t in collaboration with the knigs party (PML-QA-JI-Sunni groups).`

Would you elaborate a little more on that?

SameerJB:

Do you like Nawaz, Mushahid & Co. becoz they are Punjabi ? I`m just curious, I can`t understand why you would want these guys back or why your`re so supportive of them, when theres always hope for better leaders. I`m not saying that Musharraf is better, or worse for that matter - I don`t know.

I just don`t get it. Do you like the motorway alot ? Did you like the yellow cab scheme ?

You also say the Mush. was the very best information minister we have had and something about him being a measure of performance going forward. Surely you are delusional or the other interactors and columnists mentioned in the interactions are way off.

There is a huge disparity between your level of support and other`s assesment. I can`t understand it.

Peace.

To all that have ``admired`` my dissenting views,
I always like to give people a second look and
resist the temptation to join the ``Qasai Culture``
that blames everyone ELSE for Pakistan`s predicament.
Here is another perfect example from Pakistan Link today. Please read it carefully at:

http://www.pakistanlink.com/Opinion/2001/July/13/06.html

Ras

``In the shadow of the valley of despair

By Mahir Ali

It would be unrealistic to harbour expectations of a substantive breakthrough during General Pervez Musharraf`s visit to India this weekend, although there is little harm in hoping otherwise. It would be equally unwise to pretend that the summit is doomed to insignificance, either because New Delhi and Islamabad are irreconcilably far apart on all issues that matter, or because the Pakistan team will be led by an unrepresentative leader.

Judging by his decision to assume the presidential mantle, the latter factor has been weighing on General Musharraf`s mind. It is, however, hard to say how his status has in any way been enhanced through a titular change also favoured by previous military rulers. Chief executive was, admittedly, a somewhat silly and overly corporate designation, albeit a trifle less embarrassing than the nomenclature favoured by his predecessors. But it is not easy to interpret the ostensible elevation either as a setback or as progress in any meaningful sense. Rafiq Tarar`s presence in the presidency amounted to precious little, nor could anything particularly benign be deduced from the fact that parliaments were hitherto in suspension, given that restoration of the status quo ante has never been on General Musharraf`s agenda.

That said, it would obviously have been better in innumerable ways for Pakistan to be represented by an elected leader. It is a misfortune that both the leaders we elected in the interregnum between one bout of military rule and the next are at present in exile. Their harsh comeuppance is at least partly their own fault. However, the abuse of democracy does not necessarily justify army take-overs: General Musharraf`s coup against Nawaz Sharif may have been greeted with jubilation, but it was nonetheless a tragedy for Pakistan.

It is supremely unfortunate that civilian political institutions have been unable to acquire the sort of maturity that could pre-empt peremptory military action. It will be interesting to see whether the promised restoration of representative rule in October next year will be accompanied by measures aimed at addressing the pitfalls that democracy has thus far been prone to. A word of caution is perhaps called for: institutionalizing a role for the armed forces in the governance of the nation would be a grave error.

Like many other nations, Pakistan needs more democracy, not less. It also requires a higher degree of answerability - but to the people, not the GHQ.

It may well be the case that India will be less inclined to thrash out any long-term agreement with a leader whose constituency consists exclusively of the men in khaki (and camouflage). But it is worth remembering that no such agreement is on the table. And even if General Musharraf`s fraternizing with the Indian leadership yields nothing more than an unusual degree of goodwill, it will be a small but important step in the right direction.

Our relations with India have been so comprehensively fraught for so long that any sign of a thaw deserves to be welcomed. Simla was a milestone, not least because it occurred just a few months after the neighbours had fought their third war and Pakistan was still licking its wounds after the Indian-assisted secession of Bangladesh. Nearly two decades later, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto`s daughter and Indira Gandhi`s son were believed to have struck a rapport when the latter visited Islamabad for a SAARC summit, but neither of them survived in power for very long. Mr Sharif appeared to have achieved at least as much when Atal Behari Vajpayee visited Lahore in 1999, but shortly afterwards the two nations nearly went to war yet again over Kashmir.

Mr Sharif subsequently sought to create the impression that the armed infiltration from the Pakistani side had been orchestrated by the military without his knowledge. General Musharraf has dismissed that version of events as a fantasy, but the Indian attitude towards him will depend to a certain extent on the degree to which his denial is believed in New Delhi.

Dredging up the past, it must be acknowledged, does not necessarily illuminate the least treacherous path ahead. But recognizing the follies and foibles of yesteryear would unquestionably clear the air, making a new beginning possible. Both India and Pakistan have a great deal to come clean about. The past 54 years have been filled with manoeuvres and machinations, not many of which had anything to do with seeking a brighter future for the people of Kashmir.

Pakistan`s indiscretions have included three disastrous military incursions into Kashmir - in 1947, 1965 and 1999 - the first of which apparently led to Maharaja Hari Singh signing the document of accession to India.

There is, of course, considerable logic in the argument that as a Muslim-majority state, Jammu and Kashmir ought to have been a part of Pakistan. However, the Congress and the Muslim League had both agreed to the undemocratic proviso that the rulers of princely states would have the right to decide which way to go.

Pakistan should also stop denying that it has over the decades been arming and training militants for attacks inside Indian territory - the ``moral support`` excuse has never been sufficiently credible. On the other hand, India ought to drop the pretence that the separatist impulse is exclusively an imported item. It would have been impossible for militancy to flourish in a hostile milieu - and conditions conducive to it have been created to a large extent by what could be seen as military occupation. The ``special status`` conferred on Jammu and Kashmir at the outset acquired negative connotations long ago. It is self-deluding on India`s part to suggest that the state`s only ``problem`` is Pakistan.

Then again, harping on the plebiscite tune, as has consistently been Pakistan`s wont, serves little purpose. Not because a democratic decision on their future by the people of Kashmir is anything to be scoffed at. It should remain the ultimate aim, but a great deal of water - but, hopefully, no more blood - will have to flow under the bridge before it can come to pass.

An ideal solution to the dispute would involve a thoroughgoing demilitarization of the region on both sides of the Line of Control, followed by the dismantlement of the Line and the establishment of an interim administration under the joint jurisdiction of India and Pakistan, overseen, if necessary, by the United Nations. If the arrangement works in the short run and facilitates the return to Kashmir of all displaced persons, the next sensible step would be a referendum, under UN auspices, on the territory`s future, with independence guaranteed by Islamabad and New Delhi being among the options on the ballot paper.

Once progress towards such an objective is discernibly set in motion, accompanied by a palpable decrease in the degree of antagonism, India and Pakistan should be able to reach out to each other in various other spheres. Unrestricted trade between the neighbours would, by and large, benefit both. Encouraging tourism would be advantageous not only in economic but also in political terms: face-to-face contact under hospitable circumstances remains the best means of dissipating suspicions and hostility.

A distinct improvement in the bilateral climate would enable both sides to contemplate slashing their defence budgets - which could prove at least as mutually beneficial as the opening of new trade routes. The ultimate goal in this respect ought to be the denuclearization of the subcontinent: not because of the patently false superpower argument that some nations have the inherent right to be more equal than others in this respect (as in many others), but because nuclear weaponry is per se an evil that South Asia`s billion-strong population can well do without.

None of this can be achieved at the talks between General Musharraf and Mr Vajpayee. It is likely to prove elusive even in the considerably longer run. But even relatively non-controversial confidence-building measures would be a hopeful sign - provided they are recognized by both sides as a beginning rather than as an end in themselves.

So, notwithstanding his dictatorial status, let our good wishes accompany General Musharraf on his maiden presidential journey abroad. And let us hope that he and his elected Indian counterparts will be able to exude goodwill during their conversations, and come away from the talks with open minds.

The unfortunate history of relations between India and Pakistan gives one cause to suspect - nay, fear - that even such a limited goal may prove out of reach in the days ahead. But nothing would give this writer more pleasure than to be proved wrong.``(Dawn)

The Delhi tea party

``The atmosphere before the weekend`s Pakistan-India summit turned bitter on Wednesday when all members of India`s governing coalition decided to boycott the reception at Pakistan`s High Commission for President Pervez Musharraf.

``It was decided that no one from the National Democratic Alliance will attend the high tea at the Pakistan High Commission,`` NDA convener George Fernandes told reporters after a meeting of coalition leaders.

The tea party has sparked off controversy with its invitation to the All Party Hurriyat Conference (APHC) - to attend and meet the president.

New Delhi had wanted the Hurriyat excluded from President Musharraf`s visit and had ``advised`` the high commission here against extending the invitation.

``Some NDA members have received invitations for the reception. It was noticed that the invitation was extended only to the Hurriyat and not any MP or any other representative of the (held) Kashmir government,`` Fernandes said.

``It seems Pakistan wants to show that the Hurriyat is the sole representative of the people of Kashmir.``

Some members of the Hurriyat have themselves decided to turn down the tea invitation on grounds that they have been excluded from the summit. ``We are prepared to discuss all the issues,`` foreign ministry spokeswoman Nirupama Rao said of the upcoming meet in Agra.

The discussions will be based on the broad framework of a ``composite dialogue which sets the tone for future direction``, Rao said, adding trade and commerce were part of the issues India was open to negotiating on. ``And, so, all issues of the composite dialogue will be logically part of the talks,`` she added``(Dawn)

A ``Diplomatic Kargil``? -- a ``Delhi Disaster``?

``The seemingly eternal Haramzada, sorry Nawabzadah``

You can do better than that, hobbyty.

Thanks Mushahid for another very fair assessment of the current political situation in Pakistan. I hope you will keep writing for chowk and Nation daily. Never mind that you will be constantly criticized for being part of previous government by those who have pinned their hopes with Musharraf for a variety of reasons. Sir, your government was better than current one on every count except for Shariaat Bill which is perhaps going to be matched by current rulers by Hisba sh/t in collaboration with the knigs party (PML-QA-JI-Sunni groups). The intentions of Musharraf are becoming crystal clear with Chaudharys and Mian Azhar using special plane and in constant touch with core commanders for the next phase of so-called devolution plan. You were the best information minister Pakistan has for the last ten years and that is the yard stick to be used for performance. Who is information minister now? What is his performance? Political favoritism is replaced by military khakism. NAB is not going to go after Chaudharys, for sure whose percieved corruptions are no less than NS. The performance of PPP and PML (N) under adverse circumstances is remarkable and a slap on Musharraf face. Two years of his government is a record of cheating with people, trampling laws of the land, economically worse than before, internationally more isolated than before, inflation, rupee value etc etc.

Yet people who criticize you will happily call Musharraf Honorable CE when he wanted to be called himself CE. They will call him Mr. President if Musharraf wants to be called president and perhaps zill-e-ilahi if Musharraf wants to be called King. They showered respectful titles dear sir, dear Dr. and Professor Sahib on Ata-Ur-Rehman, when he was involved in giving stupid outlandish projections about IT in Pakistan. He has turned out to be another big fart. We know all about Shaukat Aziz, Ishrat Hussain and Abdul Sattar also. All inept cabinet under another inept gorilla warfare specialist.

Last but the most, I thank your government for ending the Kargill war and saving lives of perhaps hundreds more in a war, we were on the verge of losing-the prized Tiger Hill already lost. I also thank your government for trying their best to ease tensions with india through Lahore process. Without implementing the issues agreed upon in Lahore, now euphoria for Agra summit is in part glee for recognition Musharraf government finally received from none other than their most despised ``enemy``.

Mushahid Hussain Saab Revisited!

Mushahid Hussain seems to be on an unprecedented rampage at Chowk. It

appeares that our Mushahidsaab has been designated the resident

expert/thinktank by the Chowk staff, on solutions to Pakistan`s problems.

There are many other much credible Pakistani journalists who can do this job more honourably and with conviction too, yet Chowk seems to be leaning heavily towards our honourable frieds

from NS regime, for some obscure reason.

Today, his second article in almost 10 days was printed at Chowk. Of course

he is seen as lamenting his cause i.e the restoration of democracy such that

hyenas like him and countless others, who have been hibernating might come

out and revel in a feeding frenzy, yet once more. I dont have a problemwith

his writing articles, but what i do seriously hold against this felow, is

his conscpicuous absence from the interacts, where he never appears to

defend himsefl from the critique being levelled against him. That is a sign

of cowardice and lack of character to write a piece, and not to be man

enough to accept the critique for it, or accept dialogue with those very

entities whose support he is seeking.

Sincerely

Asim

P.S Ras Sahib, your taking Muhshahid`s stance can be understood, given your unfaltering patrongae of the naek Mulsima Bibi Bhutto as well. It takes all sorts of suckers to make this world!

temporal # 5 & #6,

You will have to be a little more direct with
your questions to me.
Please elaborate...

Ras

I finally read the article by Mushahid. It is pretty good I think since it throws some light on what is going on with the NSC. Nothing much, although the tinge of Islamization is troubling, since it could potentially pull up some mullah officers, and God save Pakistan if the dictatorship his taken over by islamists. Not that I think that is about to happen, given their narrow constituency within the military or elsewhere.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: hariharan, #12

I agree with everything you said. And you said it so well.

Mr. Husain

YOu don`t have credibility! You need credibility! You can regain your credibility (slowly) by coming clean. Forget about being heard by anybody, especially Pakistanis; before you begin to imagine that you have valid contributions to make - and some day, you may - please consider coming clean to the Pakistani people. What were you doing in that regime? What role did you play in the suppression of Sethi, Haqqani and others and for God`s sake, Why?

You were the principal information officer of the regime and were responsible, as it was your job - but, it`s not like you did not have prospects - why did you agree to continue? and Why did you do such a terrible job? Who are you? And, why should you be trusted, again?

You and some others imagine that in a year or so, Musharraf will be gone, you`ve lost this bet before, perhaps now it is time to trust Pakistanis, come clean to them. Some will hate you for it, other praise you for the courage it will take, all will be disappointed. But at least they will begin to trust you.

Musharraf is not the problem, if the politicians continue to see Pakistan as deserving the plunder which politicians see as their right to engage in, tomorrow, there will be not the Taliban, but a truly authoritarian regime that will make the rampages of Ayatollah Khalkhali and Ayatollah Ringo and Saddam, seem like a picnic in comparison to what they will put our ``elite`` through. And the Pakistani people will support them, in this effort. We`ve had with these so called ``elite``

Asfand 13

You hit the nail on the head. The quality of ``politician`` in Pakistan is terribly disappointing. Boonie and Cylde, then the Ithefaq and sons. The seemingly eternal Haramzada, sorry Nawabzadah, the paranoid and ultimately stupid government spooks, while it`s true that all political parties need all political parties need a personality with which to project their ideas, in Pakistan all we get is just the personalities, always short on education and ideas that can work.

A new generation of national political leadership needs to be cultivated. Omar Asghar Khan, if he does not shoot himself in the foot or mouth, seems to have potential.

LOVE-IN IN THE SHADOWS:

HOLLOW GRIN AND WEAK KNEES



where is the pit
in the stomach
where this unease
is supposed to be?


believers
of this god or that idol
play with lives innocent
death a provocation
a proclamation to the world
of politics
death merely a tool
as life gasps
a press release
is faxed

would lose out
if peace prevails
these believers
from ganges, indus
hence this unease
like the eve of the other visit
in innocent blood I fear
these bigots
will be the statement

-----=====-----

on this eve
of the love-in
in the shadows of the taj
tough hollow grin
meets
determined weak knees

smiles and hand shakes
and pats galore
beaming and beamed in space
from under the shadows...

agreements and statements
will leash the galloping mares
of the nuke-yard
let the poor travel
with the ease of the rich
and mighty

away with the hurdles
for the banias, chiniotis, memons
no, na, nahin
not exploitation
shhhhhh.....
it is called free trade now

there will be agreements aplenty
promoting this and that
peace and friendship
and promises will be made
to keep,to placate, to break

but will it help
where it is needed?
will they build more latrines
yes, dignity of the common man
matters with me.

Ras #5: One of my favorite quotes. Applies quite well here. In my opinion, any journalist, regardless of his eloquence, accuracy and intelligence, can only be as good as the credibility he enjoys. Would be interested to know whether you agree or disagree:

``Cronyism is the curse of journalism. After many years I have reached the firm conclusion that it is impossible for any objective newspaperman to be a friend of a President. -- Garry Wills, ``Lead Time: A Journalist`s Education,`` Doubleday & Co., 1983``

Since Chowk is bent upon forcing Mushahid Hussain down everyone`s throat, I think it would be a good idea to point out what some journalists (who do have some credibility, and some of them are actually quite good) think of him:

``Weavers of lies

By Ardeshir Cowasjee

.....Our roll of honour of notable weavers includes, but is not limited to, Altaf Gauhar (Ayub), Maulana Kausar Niazi and Nasim Ahmed (Bhutto) Lieutenant-General Mujibur Rahman (Zia), Husain Haqqani (Nawaz I and Benazir II), and now Mushahid Hussain....

Brittle and paranoiac as it is, this government for some mad reason considers Haqqani to be a threat, possibly because it thinks he has armed himself with copies of compromising documents picked up during his days of officialdom. He is now tied to the rack. The government has not denied that its dirty-tricks brigade kidnapped him in the middle of the night, had him beaten up, kept in solitary confinement, initially incommunicado, but now under judicial custody in a safe house near the Rawal Lake. His cuts and bruises have been brought on record, his bail applications have been rejected. Ostensibly he has been charged with corruption, embezzlement, and the squandering of government wealth. Could he even remotely have squandered one-hundreth of what has been squandered by Benazir or Nawaz?.....

Mushahid Hussain claims to be a profoundly educated man, but his association with Nawaz Sharif seems to have washed away all his qualifications. He is responsible for Haqqani`s predicament and for all the troubles faced by Najam Sethi. The government has also not denied that Sethi was abducted in the middle of the night by its dirty-tricks men, beaten up and kept in solitary confinement. He at least has been released, without any charges having been made against him as none could be proved. Now free, he has been banned from leaving the country and is facing 28 income tax cases. The systematic income-tax-cases harassment is a hangover from the Bhutto days......

His performance may have made us lose whatever residual sympathy we had from a few quarters in the world. Mushahid further disgraced our judiciary with the lies he told about the storming of the Supreme Court. He told the world that the Chief Justice of Pakistan, Sajjad Ali Shah, was not sacked by his government but by his fellow judges. He omitted to say what the government`s role was in this affair. (DAWN, Pakistan, 29 June 1999)

``Shooting the messenger

By Irfan Husain

Najam Sethi has been a friend for twenty years, and I have been a regular reader of, and occasional contributor to, The Friday Times ever since it was launched a decade or so ago. Since its earliest days, the weekly has been a fearless crusader for good governance and accountability. Its fierce independence, together with its irreverent style, quickly made it required reading for anybody interested in being on the inside track of Pakistani politics.....

I am convinced that it is Sethi`s uncompromising stance on corruption that has led to his Gestapo-like kidnapping, and not his recent speech in New Delhi, whatever the government`s spin doctors may say.....

If the government thinks it has a case of sedition against Sethi, it should have followed the legal and civilized course of going to court with its complaint. Obviously, Mushahid Hussain and his minions suspected that the government would become a laughing stock if it actually filed charges on such flimsy grounds......

The immediate cause of the government`s fury is the BBC documentary being prepared to highlight corruption alleged to permeate the highest levels of this government. Hussain Haqqani had already been snatched a fortnight or so ago for committing the sin of talking to the BBC team, and now Sethi has fallen victim of a film that still hasn`t been aired. These two arrests plus Mushahid Hussain`s amazingly puerile letter to the head of the BBC indicate the extent to which this government will go in order to keep the stench of corruption bottled up. Indeed, as a Pakistani I cringed in embarrassment at reading this pathetically undignified letter from our information minister, as well as the BBC`s stinging reply. (DAWN, Pakistan, 15 May, 1999)

``WHAT IS TO BE DONE!

Syed Adeeb (my note: I don`t really like this guy, but the article is valid) and Mohammad A. Khalid, M.D.Mr.

Sethi and The Friday Times & daily Jang Columnist Mr. Husain Haqqani were kidnapped and tortured recently by corrupt and cruel officials of the Punjab Police, Intelligence Bureau (IB) and Federal Investigation Agency (FIA) on the direct orders of Pakistani Prime Minister Muhammad Nawaz Sharif, Punjab Chief Minister Shahbaz Sharif, Mushahid Hussain Sayed, Saif-ur-Rehman Khan, Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain, Khalid Anwer, Inspector General Police (Punjab), Home Secretary (Punjab), federal Interior Secretary and the dictator`s several other gangsters. (The Information Times, USA, May 16, 1999)

``The Death of Democracy

by Zahid Hussain

First of all, gumshoes from the Intelligence Bureau picked up Lahore journalist MAK Lodhi, who had been helping the BBC team, from his residence. He was released only after being grilled for several days. Then the car of another senior journalist, Imtiaz Alam, was picked up from his residence and set on fire.

Not content with these blatant acts of violence, the information ministry then launched a propaganda campaign through official news agencies against the BBC, accusing it of biased reporting and ``projecting a negative image of Pakistan.`` In an amusing statement, the ministry, headed by Mushahid Hussain, himself a former editor, read into the programme a conspiracy by the western media to malign and destabilise post-nuclear Pakistan.

Never before had a government in Pakistan displayed such a paranoid attitude towards the foreign press. The reason for its panic was obvious, as the administration could not refute the widespread charges of corruption in the country`s ruling family. The harassment of journalists was not an isolated event. It was apparent that the desperate action against them was taken as a part of the government`s resolve to stifle the independent press and any voice of dissent, paving the way for totalitarian rule.`` (The Daily Star, May 28, 1999)

Phrases and their true meaning:

“Supreme Court deadline of October 12” Number of days left when I might get in power again.

“political forces which is vital for building a stable democratic system”: Give me the power

“Pakistan should reach its democratic destination”: Give me the power

“Alliance for the Restoration of Democracy” Give us the power

“The cleavage in the PML has politically benefited the PPP, as is evident from the local elections” If we do not get the power this time then we will get it next time after BB gets thrown out again with corruption charges by military.

“Nawabzada Nasrullah Khan readily meets General Musharraf on `political issues` but rejects his invitation to discuss Kashmir” We do not care about Kashmir just give us the power.

“PPP as a component of ARD remains committed to its one-point agenda of struggling for restoration of democracy through an alliance with PML” We can not do it alone but like to get in power anyway.

“……..the military regime is apparently still confused on the concept of the National Security Council (NSC), its composition, functions and role. 21 months after taking over…….” They are confused over the mission of NSC, so give us the power.

“For the third time, the military regime has had to issue notifications regarding the reconstitution of the NSC” They are still confused about the mission of NSC so give us the power.

“The new notification on the NSC also negates the concept of institution-building” They are still confused so give me the power.

“One problem retarding good governance in Pakistan is the unnecessary proliferation of showpiece bodies with high-sounding nomenclature that end up doing nothing” I did the same things but if do it than it is bad and I should be given the power to rule.

“Now that the countdown to the general elections has begun” I can smell the power in air

Asfand Siddiqui

Sacramento CA

IMHO:

1. Pakistan needs to institutionalize the armed forces in every person`s life. That is, every person should serve 2-3 years like Israel does.

This ensures that no one takes a high ground.

If the armed forces are privy to this and this, the common man/woman could also be privy to this and that because they would have served their stint.

As it is, the armed forces control the institutions by default(atleast they appear saying so; actually, the religious fundamentalists control the agenda of the country)

I compare the Pakistan`s armed forces to that of Argentina`s. When the Argentine`s generals lost out in Falklands, they did not have anything to stand on. The generals are supposed to know how to fight a war. But they lost. What right they have to rule the country then?

Similarly, the Pakistani generals have caused the country to be split, exhasted the treasury money.

In essence, they do not know how to wage a war nor are they good technocrats to rule the country.

Perhaps, Pakistan needs professional administrators or ``real CEOs`` like GE`s Welch type to rule the country. If Mushy wants a real CEO then let him a real one like Welch or search TiE conference for a Pakistani born real CEO.

2. Secondly, what Pakistan needs is a huge chunk of middle-class. Having a feudal society is bad for any country. Think of it this way.

Let us say, Sharif was a feudal and had huge land holdings beyond imagination. How many cars can he possibly drive at a given time? Similarly, even he/she had a Rolls/Jag, how many cars can he possibly drive at a given time?

Versus, if there are sufficient middle class, then there is opportunity for everyone to make a fast buck and own a car, a good living and make the economy stronger. You need good demand in a consumer economy and that comes only with a strong educated middle class.

Also, focus has to be on education. For instance, where I studied in Madras (chennai) and my native place, Kerala the govt even provides meal for the kids hoping that will drive the families to send the children to school. In Kerala, every village has a library and not one spot of trash. One would think they were living in Singapore or something. You see children walking to schools in uniform even in villages.

3. Keep religion out of politics. Follow the Singapore model if Indian model is not good.

In Singapore, there are chinese, indians, malays, etc. For them country comes first, religion takes a back seat.

Ask yourself: If a multinational wants to set up shop in Pakistan, besides the normal lunch hour and breaks, if the workers want 5 additional breaks to do namaz, it takes away from production and some of the equipment you cannot stop.

Add ``elimination of riba``-Which sane individual would want to invest if there is no return or dividend. Even Pakistanis who have good intent will shy away. Which means, all you have left is

mullahs and fedual lords to control Pakistan`s destiny.

My take on the summit:

1. This whole darn thing is already choreographed.

2. Most probably, Mushy will walk away empty handed which means the mullahs will take over.

3. Already, the deobandi type mullahs are talking of ``taliban type`` govt for Pakistan. If Pakistan were to get that, there would be chaos. Which means no western govt or nation would recognize and no one would want to give away kashmir to a taliban type govt.

4. The best strategic thing that Pakistan can do is say adios to Taliban. Trust me! Their types will ruin your country.

Best wishes.

temporal #4: From what I have heard, Mushahid Hussain did not make money like the other Nawaz Sharif cronies. However, like you have stated, ``not making money`` is not enough of a criteria for being a minister. Although in Pakistan, this itself is a blessing.

He was however a member of NS`s kitchen cabinet. He was the big spinmaster. Not only did he try to portray the NS govt as competent (which is fine, and is the job of any informaiton minister), he went, ``beyond the call of duty`` and defended and justified every corrupt an immoral act of the Nawaz Sharif govt., also.

But most of all, his reign as information minister involved the biggest cases of suppression and physical beatings of Pakistani journalists, ever under any democratic govt. Sethi was kidnapped from his bedroom and jailed. Haqqani was beaten up. Maleeha Lodhi was threatened, etc.

It is hard to attach any importance to articles written by people who themselves are the cause of the problem, and could not be trusted earlier. It is alright to let them speak their mind. But, Mushahid seems to have been designated the resident expert by the Chowk staff, on solutions to Pakistan`s problems. There are many other much credible Pakistani journalists who can carry this torch far better than Mushahid Hussain, if you ask me. Perhaps in between his many articles, Chowk should print one of their articles, as well.

Ferozk #1 ``Why are you concerned about Pakistan now that you are out of power? ``

Actually, Mushahid writes these articles as a form of penance for his sins. Every time he publishes an article, he gets a sound berating from the chowkwallahs. He quietly takes it, never trying to defend himself or explain himself. This is his way of punishing himself for associating with the man-who-would-be-king.

I havent read the article yet but based on Godot`s recommendations will do so. In the meantime, I thought you may find this piece from today`s Dawn interesting:

``Agricultural Development Bank mission in Pakistan to hold talks:

KARACHI, July 11: A three-member ADB appraisal mission is currently in Islamabad holding talks with the authorities to recommend a 350-million-dollar loan``

Maintaining high journalistic standards, the Dawn writer obviously took an educated guess that the A in ADB stood for Agriculture! Of course, he could have asked someone, but heck, why bother with small things like facts. Someone please tell me I am wrong, and that I am only imagining that the only ADB that goes around promising hundreds of millions of dollars is the Asian Development Bank.

Dear Mushahid:

Good to hear from you so soon.

``The third reconstitution of the NSC, done last week, makes it a virtually all-khaki body (save for Governors of Balochistan and Sind), removes the ministers, and includes offices which are currently not separate from the President, namely, Chief Executive, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee and Chief of Army Staff, thereby ensuring it too will remain a paper organisation``

In the ``ideal`` NSC of Mr. Musharraf, the ``democratic`` PM would have FOUR votes as the CE, Chairman Joint Chief of Staff committee, Chief of Army Staff and the President -- bravo!!

Now this is the kind of ``checks and balances`` Pakistan really needs if it wants to have ``real`` democracy La Musharraf kind.

You are so right, before Mr. Musharraf goes to Delhi he should definitely lift the ban on political activities in Pakistan. He must talk with NS and BB if he really wants to strengthen his negotiating hand with Mr. Vajpayee.

Without the expressed consent of the only TWO parties that matter -- Mr. Musharraf MANDATE to negotiate with Vajpayee is still INCOMPLETE..

And ladies/gentlemen shall we quit attacking Mushahid Hussain personally for his past stint in

a government. Let us treat him critically as a journalist – WRITING FOR Chowk..

Mr. Hussain has given Chowk a subcontinental and international visibility -- that could only benefit the IndoPak relations.

Great column.

Ras #5:

...pls. consider #4 addressed to you as well...will appreciate a direct answer...what bothers me is the questio of `credibility`...for me it should not be overlooked...

rgds,

t

Ras #5:

...pls. consider #4 addressed to you as well...will appreciate a direct answer...

rgds,

t

Another great article by Mushahid Hussain.
Keep them coming here on CHOWK.

As far as his critics are concerned, just two
things:

1) Learn how to be flexible enough to know the
difference between the pond and the fish.

2) Get to know more about the reality of politics
in Pakistan.

Ras

feroz:

....someone once chastised the interactors in one of the previous mushahid articles here for being too harsh on him...that got me thinking...has this guy ever come clean?...

...to be fair and honest...those who know him personally and are better informed have told me that this fellow is ‘honest’ at the least...did not have his hand in the till...which is fine and an honourable trait...BUT...he was associated with the sharif government...all its fiascos and the misdeeds...and an ‘honourable’ man should have quit...we know mushahid did not...that is why it is important for me to find out if he has ever come clean...otherwise I will continue to attach little importance to his columns...

rgds,

t

A very informative and well-written article with a lot of good ideas for Pakistan`s Government. I really liked it.

Re: Feroz, #1

Way to go, Feroz!!!

Re: M. Hussein

To quote you:

``one problem retarding good governance in Pakistan is the unnecessary proliferation of showpiece bodies with high-sounding nomenclature that end up doing nothing``.