TiECon 2001

Musharraf has proven again that Pakistan Army or Establishment`s motto is:-

HUM NAHI SUDHARENGE

Read the statement below by Musharraf carefully. Pakistan is willing to sideline its economy (i.e. the well-being of its people) and even risk nuclear destruction to win some territory in Kashmir. How disgusting is that? If ABV ever made such a statement (that he would sacrifice our economy for Kashmir), the NDA would get thrown out so fast he wouldn`t know what hit him.

This element of sadism in Pakistan continues to amaze me. I can`t get over mothers who willingly send their sons to death in Kashmir in the name of shahadat. I can`t get over Urstruly who urges them to keep doing it, rattling his beard with bravado from the safety of his couch.

Quote:

``No leader in Pakistan can allow the sidelining of Kashmir for the sake of economy, confidence building, nuclear, everything.``

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RE: spout

Who said I was squirming? Sab ko apne jaisaa samajh rakha hai? Homey don`t play that.

Re:shammi#126

Shammi, I will take the analysis even further. The reality is that hindus and muslims were socially alienated from each other for centuries, although they coexisted for a 1000 years. I have seen even in my parent`s generation, people were not willing to offer a glass of water to a muslim, beleiving that it would pollute the glass. Any utensil used for such a purpose, was kept separate for special cleaning. I am sure muslims also had similar sentiments about hindus. If this was the situation in the 20th century, you can imagine what it was in the past. I admit that today, things are much better and the new generation certainly does not follow the same kind of taboos. However, the past was really brutal and we cannot ignore that. This happenned in spite of our knowing that these muslims were descendents of hindus, which is an indication of our collective myopia.

You cannot remain socially isolated and build a common nation, unless there are special protections for the minority. We did this with the scheduled castes and tribes, but we balked at the prospect of any special protection for muslims. This was the real reason for partition.

Re: Hobbyty & Urstruly

I would like to add to your analysis about why TNT took a strong hold. It is indeed true that Congress probably overplayed its hand in the 1937 (not `38) elections, that ultimately came back to haunt it. Congress` denial of any ministerial berths to the Muslim League may have been short-sighted, and the spark that lit the subsequent fire. However, there was another macro trend affecting N. Indian muslims. That was the British vengeful attitude towards Muslims following the Mutiny of 1857, and the loss of privilege by Muslim nobility. The Mutiny saw Bahadur Shah Zafar being anointed emperor of India by a largely Hindu army (an example that we from the Subcontinent should be all proud of). However, after the Mutiny was ruthlessly put down, Muslims fell out of favor with the British, since they were seen as being loyal to the last vestiges of the Mughal empire. For the Muslim nobility of N. India (from which the likes of Liaquat Ali Khan and Shaharyar M. Khan were to later emerge) this fall from an exalted position and loss of political power was a harder pill to swallow than for almost any other community (including Hindus). This is the larger undercurrent that climaxed in the `37 elections from which there was no looking back.

Ras Siddiqi #144 The article you posted is an indication of how primitive both India and Pakistan are emotionally and culturally even as they have pretensions to nuclear power status and IT: the article points to Indians and Pakistanis sharing (a) common religious practices revolving around the worshipping of dead ``saints`` and (b) common race or something (i.e. the same tired refrain about Pakistanis wanting to be Arabs forgetting their Indian race that I must have read 1 million times by now on chowk from Indian posters). I look forward to the day when we have an article which points to Indians and Pakistanis sharing certain common VALUES, like non-violence, like learning, like clean neighborhoods, like the rule of law, like modesty. Forget race and forget religion as a basis for being ``one people``. Race and religion are not forces that unit, they are forces that divide. What unites people are values. That is what has made USA what it is.

Rsuxena #121,

Yes, seeing you squirm is amusing to me. Kapeesh?

It`s the simple things in life that matter.

tahmad321 # 118

As usual you are missing the point. I know the urdu proverb and its meaning i.e. not all five fingures are equal, very well. But whenever we talk about ``them`` the conventional wisdom fails.

- They claim to be decent but I have never seen even one of them to exhibit decency (unless one of us, i.e. usually me, gives them a chilli coated finger). The people like chootyam parshad and lalloo naath can insult everything that pertains to being muslim, and pakistani yet none of them finds enough courage to stand up against them (by themselves). Not even one out of 800 million? So what does it tell ya? I know tens of Pakistanis who take serious offence when I call them ``Hindus`` (Is it a slur?). Why aint such people on their side? If you know anyone plz name him. It will be a matter of hours I will dig up something and will prove you wrong.

From The Times of India today:

In visiting Ajmer, the General concedes a point

By Manoj Joshi

Pakistanis make a fetish of their ``differentness`` from ``Hindu`` India and its inhabitants, but there`s one thing they don`t reject - the continuing hold of ``Indian`` Islam in Pakistan. And it`ll be underscored when Gen Musharraf concludes his trip to India with a pilgrimage to the dargah of Khwaja Moinuddin Chisti in Ajmer - a visit to Hazrat Nizamuddin Aulia`s shrine in Delhi was cancelled at the last minute because of scheduling problems.

The General`s pilgrimage, a reaffirmation of the Indian roots of Pakistani Islam, not only emphasises a common cultural past but also puts him four-square against disturbing trends in his country that seek to purge Islam of subcontinental characteristics. Organisations like the Jamiat Ahle Hadis, the Jamaat-e-Islami, Tablighi Jamaat and the Lashkar-e-Taiba`s parent arm, the Markaz-dawa-ul-Irshad (MDI), believe that practices such as visiting the shrines of Sufi saints like Moinuddin Chisti and Nizamuddin Aulia are against the tenets of Islam.

Indeed, so austere are their beliefs that they oppose all schools of Islamic jurisprudence, including the Hanafi school favoured by the Indian ulema (clerics). They reject music and dancing, even of the spiritual kind favoured by the qawwals and dervishes. Once they are trained, the Lashkar militants drop their South Asian names and adopt Arabic monickers prefixed by ``Abu``.

Though many of Pakistan`s militant organisation`s swear formal allegiance to the South Asia`s dominant Islamic school - the Darul Uloom at Deoband near Saharanpur - they reject Deoband`s belief that Muslims can live in peace with other communities in South Asia. Radicalised by the Afghan jihad, they have now turned India-baiters. But while Deobandi groups like the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen call for a jihad against India only in Kashmir, others like the MDI and Jamiat Ahle Hadis see Kashmir as a gateway for a larger jihad across the world, but beginning with India.

Contrary to what fundamentalists - both Hindu and Muslim - believe, it was Muslim mystics like Khwaja Moinuddin Chisti and Nizamuddin Aulia, and not sword-wielding Sultans, who did much to spread Islam in India. Poets like Amir Khusrau who wrote in several languages, including Braj Bhasha, made major contributions to India`s composite culture.

Khwaja Moinuddin was initiated into the Chisti Sufi order in Central Asia and came to India following the establishment of the Delhi Sultanate in the last decade of the 12th century. After staying in Lahore and Delhi, he settled in Ajmer where he stayed till his death in 1236 at the age of 97. Though later the Naqshbandi silsila gained prominence under Mughal rule, today it is the saint of Ajmer who is venerated across the subcontinent, and not only by its Muslims.

Will shared history and culture symbolised by Agra and Ajmer provide the impetus for reconciliation between India and Pakistan? Perhaps with the Garib Nawaz`s blessings, it will.

urstruly #96 ``Your (jays) post is the best manifestation of Indian (read Hindu) mentality and psyche. I have been trying to convince most of the Pakis about this for quite sometime but it is so incomprehensible for any human being who is non-Hindu. They would rather blame me as being a bigot than accepting this reality about the way you people think.``

I agree that jay is a model jerk. But for you to take the posts of one man and condemn 1 billion Indians (or 800 million Hindus) is a bit of a leap, dont you think? And please assure me that there are no Pakis who are as evil minded as jay; that we have no killers, madmen, wife-beaters and thieves in Pakistan.

harish3 (continuation of my previous post) ...thoughtful one.

harish3 ``No one exposes the hypocrisy of the many confused pakis on chowk with as much humor and wit as you do.``

Is there a shortage of humor and wit then with which the hypocrisy and confusion among us Pakis is exposed? Any other sincere and insightful thoughts from you, oh

Re: scout

Doesn`t take much to get you salivating excited, does it? Enjoy, enjoy....the easily amused should take pleasure in the simple things.

Re: shrinko #112

Dude, that was lame. If you want a good ole fashion a$$ kicking from me, you`re gonna have to do a lot better than that to motivate me.

RE: Zahra

No need to get tied into a knot. Just read what you have written and recognize the contradictions. Sometimes it is best to think before writing.

``On an ending note: No one should ever dare to come and tell me to tell Yasser or anyone else anything.``

And who allowed you to dare to tell people on Chowk what statements they are or are not ``entitled`` to make?

``Stop acting like little kids who start whining every now and then when they don`t have a valid excuse.``

Very good advice indeed. Now follow it. Don`t ``whine`` because of what someone wrote on Chowk; particularly when that writing was not addressed to you directly (since according to your logic, people should not have the right to address any topic they want...only those which some arbitrary judge has decided they are ``entitled`` to address, right?).

``Yasser will write whatever he wants to write and so will the others.``

Goody goody goody ... now you do realize that everyone can write whatever they want to ... so next time don`t go around announcing who is ``entitled`` to make what statements.

Have a wonderful day. Go out in the sun, turn on the rap music, and dance all the anger away.