TiECon 2001

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zahra zahra zahra - Totally forgot to give you my email - ahmed_aicha@yahoo.com. Just now realized it and have backtracked to this thread. I would love to stay in touch off-chowk so pls email wehn you have a chance.

aicha

aicha:

Great Post!

Indeed, very tactful :)

Impressive :D

Take Care.

Mr Aamir - 2 things i wanted to mention - this is a plave to exchange ideas and not to take things to heart. If you disagree either duke it out or ignore that person - but why drop out? C`mon the more the merrier. Second - re meeting up - good idea but given our past record of having nothing nice to say to each other - which was fun (sometimes!!) - see no reason why we should spoil this happy stat quo by having to be nice in person : ) - am sure you will agree - oui??

aicha

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aicha: That sounds good.

By the way on your comment about *nearly missing * the thread...I think all the threads as well as the interactors are not worth reading at all! So I don`t blame you :)

Take Care.

Zahra - nearly missed your post as I am not uptodate on all the threads. Good to hear from you and would love to head out to a beach evenings. Pt Pleasant sounds good. THe one I went to was somewhere in Long Island - just ended up there with a friend dont kno whow. You know the other thing I would love to do but never had the inclination to is hit the practive ranges - where everyone tries their putt`ig(??) So let me know the w`s (ie.. who what wehn and where). The foll 2 weeks will be a bit busy (mother in town : ) : ) : )) but any time after that will be good.

aicha

RSaxena #221 Thanks for declaring me the victor. But we have a problem: In a discussion both sides are winners, regardless of the outcome. In an argument both sides are the losers and the outcome is known in advance. So, either way, I cannot be declared ``Victor of TiECon 2001`` (much as the idea of being a victor pleases me).

So, I dont feel like a victor. In fact, I feel like a loser....now would that mean we ended by arguing when we could have been discussing? hmmmm....perhaps the person you refer to can provide the answer...if anyone is still around on this board.

aicha:

Sorry could not get back to you earlier,I have been away. I remembered you telling me once that you are in the tri-state area. Which beach were you talking about? I head out to Point Pleasant than anywhere else. There are a few others as well, I guess Belmar and etc, but I cannot seem to recollect their names. It`s really nice and no traffic and air-traffic(the one you will hear near JFK).

On another note: I detest Atlantic City, the dirtiest and stinking place. Just went there 5 years back to listen to Gypsy King live. Amazing concert, but deplorable surroundings when you come out of the hotel. Since then, I would not ever take my family, guests or any friends to that munhoos place. Anyway, if you are ever around Southern Part/NJ or plan to go, let me know. I am at least an hour away from the Southern Part as I am way too close to Manhattan, but still we can see if we can meet up there. Also, nowadays it is nice to be at the beach in the evening. I would never head out in the morning anyway. Just a thing about Point Pleasant: There are not many nice eateries on-site, but there are fine places in the outskirts and in the city. It`s a place that you would think you have read it in Enid Blyton`s books. The train station seems to me right out of a fairy tale, very cute. Every time I head out there, I do look around Kaheen Koi Fairy Hee Nazar Aa Jayae`. I guess it must be the after effect of watching Robin William in Peter Pan :)

Take Care.

Re: TAhmed

I have yet to receive a response to my post #119 from the person it was addressed to. Why do you think you will get any of your points addressed by this person in any relevant context?

You`ve won this argument hands down...leave your deluded opponents here to play amongst themselves and roll around in a pot of useless drivel.

Tahmed:

First of all, if you read carefully the post was addressed to URS. Just in case you missed it.

Secondly, URS has many times signed under his real name and I am pretty well aware of that. I never meant him.

PS: Your comprehension as usual is pretty disappointing!

Zahra #218 Please dont divert from the real issues by encouraging urstruly to ``speak his mind``: The problem is not speaking one`s mind, but (a) what one has on the mind to begin with (which is why we have chowk discussions) and (b) how one says it (which is why certain etiquettes - or netiquette - have developed on the internet, at least among grown up people).

Also, when you write ``These spineless fellows cannot even stand by their own views under their real names`` you do injustice to urstruly!! He is perfectly within his rights of privacy on chowk not to use his real name and you have no business calling him names simply because he refuses to use his real name on chowk.

URS:

``You still have to prove that I have written a hateful post, then we can talk about discussion and stuff. Or you have an option to act on Kessinger Doctrine ``Declare yourself victorious and get the hell out (of Vietnam)``. I suggest later. ``

I think the issue you run into has to do with the verbiage you use. Personally, some may be pretty clear on your intent behind your posts; but I do not think everyone else can comprehend that factor. Now, it is all up to you how you want to write. Do you want to say whatever you feel without any pruning ? Or do you want to be diplomatic like many on board ?

One thing that I will like to give you a credit for, is the authenticity of your posts. I do not agree at all with all your perspectives. I think we have had quite a few discussions on those. But at least you write what you feel and who you are than those on board[not even worth looking at]who are wearing garbs on Chowk, whereas in real life they represent a completely different outlook. These ``spineless`` fellows cannot even stand by their own views under their real names. How disgusting!

Take Care.

urstruly #216 You have the right idea (``declare victory and get out``) but attribute it to the wrong man - it was Senator George Aiken in 1966, not Henry Kissinger, who used this famous phrase regarding US involvement in Vietnam. Having known you to be always every careful with your facts, :-), I assume this was just a temporary lapse in the careful research on which you base your statements on chowk. As for your not being proved to have written any hate statements in your posts, I think you should apply for Minister of Information to any South Asian government: they can always use people who can say such things without cracking a smile. Anyway, you have all of the future to prove me wrong and show that you are indeed a reasonable person who is engages in nothing but constructive discussions with his brothers and sisters from across the border against whom he has not one hateful thing to say (and smilingly treat provocations by those across the border who do not reciprocate your noble feelings of brotherhood). We would all then look up to you as the elder statesman on chowk.

Do that, and rest assured that the ``khoti`` will ``aan khloti`` at the right place.

#215

jithay di khotee, othay aan khaloti.

You still have to prove that I have written a hateful post, then we can talk about discussion and stuff. Or you have an option to act on Kessinger Doctrine ``Declare yourself victorious and get the hell out (of Vietnam)``. I suggest later.

urstruly #206 ``I suggest that we take this discussion somewhere else for Ras` sake. I let you chose the board.``

I will be glad to discuss any issue with you or anyone else - Kashmir, the future of South Asia, or whatever. But before one can have any discussion, one needs to respect certain ground rules: maintaining a respectful tone, not only in the discussion itself but on ALL posts one EVER makes to chowk regarding ANY group of people. If you agree to this - and this means never again posting the types of hate posts that got this discussion started - then we can talk. We may still disagree, but that is not the point.

As for the question of Ras S.`s board, I have already explained to Ras S. (I hope he will have the time to respond at some point) in my earlier post why internet discussions are part of the IT revolution. Nor do I see any discussion taking place on IT among South Asians that this, or any other discussion, is going to disrupt. And even if there was, it is easy enough to ignore such posts.

So, if you agree to the ground rules as mentioned above, then this board will do. If you do not, then I think we have made our respective points clear and can bring this interaction to an end.

Aamir - oh ho???

sorree cant manage more than that right now. Somehow chowk isnt fun anymore!! Thks for asking though and apologies to R Siddiqui for this digression. Fear not - nothing is forgotten - a more fitting jawab will follow soon as the clouds lift (the ol` fighting spirit has been a lttle crushed of late) !!

aicha

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Ras Siddiqui #189,

I apologize.

Ras Siddiqui Sahib,

Sorry for the digression … but please let me know if the following interests you.

Ahmadiyya Muslim Community in the Bay Area is organizing “Islam in America” Conference in the City of Oakland. The idea behind this conference is to introduce the Bay Area residents to Islam and its roots in America.

This conference will be a three-hour event to be held on Saturday, August 18. It will consist of speeches from Ahmadi-Muslim scholars. One of the speakers is a renowned Jazz artist, Yusuf Latif (also an Ahmadi-Muslim), who will speak on “Islam and Contemporary Issues”. The speeches will be followed by Question-and-Answer session, Book Exhibition/Poster Display, and Refreshments.

I am working on promoting this conference through media (local newspapers, community cable channels, radio advertisements, press releases), various social and non-profit organizations, local libraries and businesses, and more. If this is something that may interest you or someone you know, please feel free to contact me at asad.sattar@analog.com. Thanks.

Asad Sattar

Now, back to Chowk business ....

Ras ji,

{{Some people on

CHOWK are actually interested in the future of

South Asia and have no desire to increase the

number of interacts on articles by reading

this continuing nonsense.}}

Aw, do we have to?!:)

Since youre the author, its your perogative & I`ll respect it. I wanted to write a post to my friend, tahmed, on how he feels. I wont do it, unless I have your permission.

Bear with me. I`ve been this hyperactive kid, (who, of course has`nt grown out of it). After a while, I get bored with a topic & digress. I`ve got a few scars on my butt from irate school teachers because of smart alek comments & other disruptions. Please dont make Chowk feel like a classroom. Then it kinda feels like we`re back in school:)

OK OK, like I said, youre the boss & I`ll open my mouth only if I have your permission...

PS-

Not to belabor the point, but over here, readers always has the ability to ``fast forward`` a post if they think its off topic:)

Egalitarian:

Just to clarify: ``so will the others`` meant the ones who were being mentioned alongwith Yasser. I think Saxena is sensible enough to realize what I meant and agreed with me. Now, I hope you can digest this.

Take Care.

PS: RS, sorry for the digression. It seems the interactors have been misreading the heading for Tie Kwondo/Tai Chi than TIECon. Thanks for reminding that it`s the latter than the former. :)

Ras #189 I regret the need for this on a board that has to do with an important matter that provides a way forward for people in India and Pakistan. IT is a subject I am in fact very much interested in, having spent the past quarter century in various capacities in this field (and I have a presentation before an IT group from a number of different companies this very afternoon!!).

Having said that, I think that internet discussions are very much a part of the IT revolution. For South Asians these discussions provide a forum for Indians and Pakistanis (who are not starving like most of their countrymen) to come together in a constructive way - God knows, given the way our governments behave and given the way our press behaves and given the lack of people to people interaction, chowk and the internet generally provide a forum for building understanding. But it takes only one or two people to shift the discussion into the sewer. We can ignore such posts, or we can challenge them. I chose to do the latter when I have time.

Netiquette is not something one hears much about on chowk, and is perhaps too much to be expected in South Asian posts. But we must draw the line somewhere, and I draw the line on insults and abusive language of the kind I challenged urstruly on. I would be glad to discuss the substantive issues with you or Zafar or anyone else, but I will also challenge those (Indian or Pakistani) who - having nothing to contribute - are make their presence felt by hurling insults and abuse.

Re: eg_brahmin

``Sometime back in Reply #119, Rsaxena explicitly exposed her blatant hypocrisy where in one breath she warned him not to say anything to her or ylh (in response to their posts) because they were entitled to say whatever they wanted.``

I am still waiting for her to respond to that post. I don`t think she will. Understandable - what can she really say when she`s caught in a hole like that?

Tahmad 321 # 198

Talking about turning the Chowk into disgusting place I think you do not have any respect for the appeal that Ras Siddique made to you, me and others. tahmad you are now being too obsessive compulsive about the whole thing and you have started seeing things which are not there.

I never dodge questions. I have my own way of answering them. If you dont like the answers its your problem. If you disagree with them; I respect that. You have been saying that I dodge your questions for the past 25 posts yet I am still here and what is most inetersting is I make you answer your own questions. I dont think I am gonna go away because the goal that you have in your mind is something I least care about. I say what I think is the right thing to say and I stick to it. And once I make you answer your own questions you come up with a new set of questions and start whining that I never answer.

Now you said ``I dont care what the basis is in Urdu literature - it refers to female body parts and you know that``.

The only thing that I know is that it (word ``chootia``) has absolutely nothing to do with female body part. If this word was originated from ``that`` some centuries ago, then only people who know about this fact are the lexicographers. In popular speak and in standard urdu dictionaries no reference is made to ``that``. THere is no sexual reference no sexual inuendo, absolutely. Now here is your chance, take a week, 2 weeks, a month and prove that it has any sexual connotations. If you prove that, I will leave chowk for good. How is that? And if you cant prove it, will you leave for good?

And your question whether I will use word ``chootia`` in front of my parents. Honestly, no. Because in Punjab people are not so eloquent in urdu language; similarly urdu speaking are not as eloquent in punjabi either and I can imagine their (urdu speaking`s) amazement/disgust when they find most of us still addressing our fathers as oyay abba!.

So is it proper to use word ``chootia`` in chowk. I think yes because of multi-ethnic and multinational composition of its interactors.

I suggest that we take this discussion somewhere else for Ras` sake. I let you chose the board.

iqbal writes:

``India says the attackers were Pakistan-backed Kashmiri fighters. ``

actually the claim is that the attackers were, in fact, Pakistani citizens.

Reply Ras #189

I`m curious as to what people think about:

Do we want economic integration (eg like France and Germany)between India and Pakistan, or do we want to keep our economies as separate as possible (eg like Syria and Jordan)? Where between these two extremes should we fall? Why?

Economic integration or separate development?

What are their economic consequences for each country? Are there political and social consequences of these as well?

What are the forces which are pro integration in each country:

What is their motivation and level of influence?

What are the forces which are pro separation.?

What is their motivation and level of influence?

I don`t have many answers. Just a lot of opinions and even more questions. Anybody?

Bijli:

Thanks for the update.

TAhmed:

My mistake! I realized that I should have asked you on a personal basis. Sorry for that!

Let`s finish it here and do NOT ever ask me again to tell someone anything. This better be taken seriously!

Take Care.

Zahra: Much as I would be honored to have a private email exchange with you, and I am sure my wife whose email you are now asking would be equally honored, I must respectfully decline the honor and pleasure. If you have anything to discuss, you just need to send a post on chowk.

On urstruly, as a chowk poster I am justified in taking issue with any poster based on either the substance of what he/she says or the form (e.g. use of abusive language). This is not a personal matter.

urstruly #197 urstruly #187 The reason I referred to your post only, and did not reproduce the words, was that I was hoping to avoid repeating your disgusting language on chowk. I see I have no choice: In your post #123, the words were ``(unless one of us, i.e. usually me, gives them (hindus) a chilli coated finger).`` Now dont try to be too clever and tell me that you did not mean anything by ``give them a chilli coated finger``.

You ignore the other post #93 and I will not repeat your language from there.

So now stop fidgeting around like a fish and answer the question: do you use words like ``chilli coated finger`` and ``chootyam`` (I dont care what the basis is in Urdu literature - it refers to female body parts and you know that) at home? You have single-handedly made chowk a disgusting place (for those who bother to ever read your garbage).

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RE: cockroach #167

You keep using that language. Your virgin count has just decreased by another 20 to 42. Keep it up and everything you have lived for and been promised since childhood will disappear.

Read Zahra 186, then

read Zahra 188

Does anybody see something wrong with this `lady?`

#: 176

scout

`anNy is one of the sweet ones on Chowk. I hope she`s well.``

tHE LAST UPDATE ON aNnY IS ON rAS sIDDIQUES ,BOARD,NOW off the front page .Chk.the post by Binnifer below

Jul-14-01 15:31:21 EST Reply #: 102

Binifer

Sadhana

anNy is in the hospital with a twisted arm, broken leg and a severely injured back. I`m sure she`ll love to come back and answer all your questions as soon as she can move. In the meantime, please CAN it.``

Goodbye,

Binifer

#: 176

scout

`anNy is one of the sweet ones on Chowk. I hope she`s well.``

tHE LAST UPDATE ON aNnY IS ON rAS sIDDIQUES ,BOARD,NOW off the front page .Chk.the post by Binnifer below

Jul-14-01 15:31:21 EST Reply #: 102

Binifer

Sadhana

anNy is in the hospital with a twisted arm, broken leg and a severely injured back. I`m sure she`ll love to come back and answer all your questions as soon as she can move. In the meantime, please CAN it.``

Goodbye,

Binifer

scout - ``I go to the beach without anything``

really?? not even a 2-piece/1-piece? ok how about a 1/2-piece??

sorry just couldnt let it go : )

zahra - Beaches?? Only if one has a deathwish should one go near a beach int his heat. Went to one about 3-4 weeks ago. Nearly died of a heatstroke not to mention severe sunburn.

aicha

Zahra 186

[As a regular contributor to the interacts, I would very politely like to request you to address your issues, concerns, likes, dislikes, hugs, kicks, jabs, and other emotions with the party you are talking to. Please avoid bringing others in your matters unnecessarily.]

Strange coming from someone who jumps in uninvited and with eyes closed to defend thugs like urstruly everytime they are in trouble. Stay away and no one will bring you into their discussions `unnecessarily`.

Bijli #182, ````Anny is one of the sweet ones`` Who are the others *hint * *hint *``

err........ you ;)

tahmed321,

You don`t need to explain anything to anyone, you`re one of the people here I truly respect because you have have never stooped so low as to disrespect anyone.

If anything, people like Urstruly, Rsaxena, and others (even me at times) who make disparaging remarks should learn something from you.

Dear Ras,

I know it is too late for that and it doesnt mean anything now but I apologize for messing up your board.

On a side note I think this volley of posts have helped clear some doubts that were in the way of the well being of South Asia. I regret what happened but I didn`t start it.

To the trio who are very active here,

if you want to talk to each other then
kindly find some other forum. Some people on
CHOWK are actually interested in the future of
South Asia and have no desire to increase the
number of interacts on articles by reading
this continuing nonsense.

Ras

P.S. This article is about TiE and the economic
direction that South Asia may wish to take.

URS:

Excellentooooooooo!!!

CHOOTIA

tahmad321 # 180

It took me a little while to figure out what the hell was in my post # 123 that you were reffereing to as ``dirty sexual innuendos``. Finally, my dirty mind pointed towards the phrase ``chootyam parsad``.

The word chootyam is actually an adjective from the Urdu/Hindi word chootia. Feroz-ul-lughat and other standard urdu dictionaries define word ``chootia`` as a person who is not only stupid but mean spirited as well.

In Karachi the word is used as a slang, which it is not, and is used all the time.

In India Muslims use the word Chootyam Parsad for any Hindu whom they want too give their love and respect. In one of the states where your friend and supporter Rsaxena belongs to, one Mr. Lalloo is even a chief minister.

See tahmad I told you before to do your homework. You cannot hold your incompetence with
our national language against me. If you dont like the sound of this word plz forward your grievances to the ehl-e-zubaan who are aplenty on this forrum or take it up with Moulvi Abdul Haq the Baba-e-urdu.

I think I deserve some credit since I let you win all the time despite the fact that you shirk work while doing your homework.

Dear Chowk Interactors:

AA!Pranam!Sat Sri Akaal!Jee Ayaa Noon!

As a regular contributor to the interacts, I would very politely like to request you to address your issues, concerns, likes, dislikes, hugs, kicks, jabs, and other emotions with the party you are talking to. Please avoid bringing others in your matters unnecessarily.

Thank You.

Zahra # 184

Zahra: Pl. tell tahmad that he is very clever and he has won. And tell him to stop asking me questions or else I will have to take him through another round of half dozen posts to figure out the answers himself again.

Thank you.

and by the way, how are you doin`.

TAhmed:

There was no roundabout way of saying anything in my post. It was a simple, humble, polite, masoom and succinct sawaal. I do not know why you mistook it. I ain`t an aflatoon or buqraat or newton...I am simply a masoom mun maujee, who very politely asked a question. There was nothing in my post to allude to anything. It was a direct question. I am surprised that you came up with such a lengthy note in response to my humble question.

``Clueless Me``

PS: Next time, if you have any issues with URS or anyone else, please make sure that you address them directly. I detest this irritating habit on Chowk where people ask others to speak on their behalf. I hope you got the point now.

Now, can I have the email address, please?

Thanks!

Zahra #173 I assume this is a roundabout way of saying that I have written things on Chowk that I would not repeat in real life before anyone. I have written much on Chowk, but to the best of my knowledge nothing that I, or any man with self-respect, would be unwilling to repeat in real life. If you do, please provide refer to the post number.

I must say I am puzzled. Urstruly uses filthy language (see last para. of his post #96 which caused me to confront him) and dirty sexual innuendos (see his post #123 where he was ``explaining`` why Hindus are indecent), and I ask him, which is my right as someone who interacts on chowk, if he would use the same language in his household. You, of all people, rise to his defense, and now take the next step of accusing me of the same without any basis. Is this what you want chowk to become: a place where hate-filled morons exchange filthy insults, and anyone who dares to stand up to them is accused without any basis for the same behavior? If this was indeed the case on chowk, I would have left it long ago. Thanks God for every one hate-filled moron there are ten good people on chowk, and that is why I am here.

Urstruly: So after dodging the simple question I had you finally answer it but without offering any regrets for your hate-statement against hindus that is thereby proved wrong. If you had done so, I would have credited you with being capable of learning from your mistakes. Now I have to set the record straight but going back to what the original question was: How can you take one hate-filled person (your soul brother Jay, even though he hates muslims and you hate hindus) and condemn 1 billion hindus? You asked me to name one decent hindu on chowk. I named Eklavya (I could have named many others, but I like to keep things simple). You now finally admit, after twisting and turning like a fish over half a dozen posts, that he has never written anything indecent. So you were wrong in your statement that all hindus are indecent. I rest my case. (One day you will realize that the proportion of indecent Indians is about the same as that of indecent Pakistanis, and that with your hate-filled abusive language, you put yourself in that select group).

Zahra #179,

Although the movie ``Jaws`` was set in a town close by, I don`t think we have to worry about sharks in these waters.

New Yorkers are enough to scare them away :)

I go to the beach without anything, and the less people the better. There`s something very peaceful and soul stirring about a secluded beach.

#176

SCOUTY

``Anny is one of the sweet ones`` Who are the others *hint * *hint *

Harpreet case: doc records statement

Tribune News Service

Patiala, July 17

An accused-turned state approver, Dr Balwinder Singh Sohal, today recorded his statement in the case relating to the mysterious death of Harpreet Kaur, daughter of former SGPC President Bibi Jagir Kaur, under Section 209 of the CrPC.

Dr Sohal recorded his statement before CBI Special Magistrate, Jaspinder Singh Heyer. The statement of Dr Sohal remained inconclusive today and he will record the remaining part tomorrow.

Meanwhile, the defence counsel today filed an application stating that they should be provided with documents relating to the anticipatory bail applications filed by Dr Sohal in Chandigarh as well as the statement filed before the Delhi Metropolitan Magistrate and the application seeking pardon from the state.

The magistrate directed the CBI to provide copies of the documents tomorrow. All accused, including Bibi Jagir Kaur, her confidant Dalwinder Singh Dhesi, Paramjit Singh Raipur, personal security officer Nishan Singh, servants Sanjeev Kumar and Harvinder and maid servant Satya Devi were present in the court.

Scout:

Do you swim?

I am sure you must have heard about the devilish Sharks in Florida and some other places. So be careful, if you are into swimming.

I am also planning to khak-chano-fy of the shores pretty soon. It`s beautiful out there nowadays: hulkee-dhoop, pyari-hawa, shor-sharaba, beach-mat, dumbells, kick-boxing-ka-samaan, kuch kitabaen[just for impression dalnaa] aur maen :D

Indeed, it was very sad to hear about Anny. I tried to find the board with her news, but there was no naam-o-nishaan of that board around. Chowk is becoming a mystery now :(
Please convey my best wishes to her for a speedy recovery.

Thanks

tahmad # 172

Thank you.

I think now you have answered all your question by yourself.

One question remained and I answer it: No I havent seen an insulting post coming from Eklavya yet.

Better luck next time Mr. Tahhmad-do your homework. And give your wife`s e-mail address to Zahra.

tahmed321 #165,

anNy is one of the sweet ones on Chowk. I hope she`s well.

Zahra #162, ``It`s a beautiful time of the year to enjoy roller-skating, if you are into it.``

I have problems with activities that require balance, but I can`t get enough of the beach these days :)

Thanks for the good wishes.

Rsuxena #146, ``Must you continue to post while PMS-ing? How about waiting a few months till it ends?``

Raveena, I`m really flattered that you are using my analogies from another board (the PurplePilpilly controversy) for expressing your displeasure.

Gosh, I didn`t think you were so impressed with my statements.

Ice cool lemonade and Midol therapy will ease your mental cramps. Try it.

TAhmed:

With due respect, before I respond to your post # 164/165, can I have the honor of having Mrs. Tahmed`s email address first ? I need to bring some issues to her attention first and then I`ll certainly reply to your note in detail :D.

Kind Regards :D :D :D

urstruly #145 Fair enough. I am pasting the full text, complete with quotes and unquotes:



QUOTE

As usual you are missing the point. I know the urdu proverb and its meaning i.e. not all five fingures are equal, very well. But whenever we talk about ``them`` the conventional wisdom fails.

- They claim to be decent but I have never seen even one of them to exhibit decency (unless one of us, i.e. usually me, gives them a chilli coated finger). The people like chootyam parshad and lalloo naath can insult everything that pertains to being muslim, and pakistani yet none of them finds enough courage to stand up against them (by themselves). Not even one out of 800 million? So what does it tell ya? I know tens of Pakistanis who take serious offence when I call them ``Hindus`` (Is it a slur?). Why aint such people on their side? If you know anyone plz name him. It will be a matter of hours I will dig up something and will prove you wrong.

UNQUOTE

So what you are decency to be not just avoiding India-Pakistan mudslinging (which is what I was referring to), but actively protesting against that particularly with one`s own countrymen. Fine.

In response, I present to you (drum roll please), Shankar. I recall having read a number of posts to the effect that you mention. I also recall Eklavya taking up Indian posters as well, but shankar has been around longer on chowk.

So, now please can you respond to the question: how can you take your irritation at one man (jay) and condemn 1 billion people?

And one more thing: I read on another board that anNy is in hospital after an accident. binifer reported that. I have not heard anything more. I hope binifer or anyone else who knows anNy in real life will convey to anNy our best wishes from chowk for a full and fast recovery.

Too often we forget that behind these posts are real people with real lives.

Zahra #157 I wrote #160 defending urstruly`s human rights even before I saw your post #157. As you can see, I am on duty on this board, and PROTEST (I do not consider myself so good as to SCOLD anyone other than myself sometimes) below the belt shots regardless of the parties involved.

Now please dont encourage urstruly: rather use your influence to get him to mend his misguided ways. :-)

Pakistan: Needs boost on IT front

http://www.zdnetindia.com/news/features/stories/31506.html

RE: TAhmad

``Having said that, I must now protest your name-calling of urstruly which is not fair to him or to the rest of us. Thank you.``

Yes, but I am known for that on Chowk. You on the other hand or not...hence my support.

(Each person needs to be considered on an individual basis...some of these people are rightfully called what they deserve to be called.)

urstruly #145 Fair enough. I am pasting the full text, complete with quotes and unquotes:



QUOTE

As usual you are missing the point. I know the urdu proverb and its meaning i.e. not all five fingures are equal, very well. But whenever we talk about ``them`` the conventional wisdom fails.

- They claim to be decent but I have never seen even one of them to exhibit decency (unless one of us, i.e. usually me, gives them a chilli coated finger). The people like chootyam parshad and lalloo naath can insult everything that pertains to being muslim, and pakistani yet none of them finds enough courage to stand up against them (by themselves). Not even one out of 800 million? So what does it tell ya? I know tens of Pakistanis who take serious offence when I call them ``Hindus`` (Is it a slur?). Why aint such people on their side? If you know anyone plz name him. It will be a matter of hours I will dig up something and will prove you wrong.

UNQUOTE

So what you are decency to be not just avoiding India-Pakistan mudslinging (which is what I was referring to), but actively protesting against that particularly with one`s own countrymen. Fine.

In response, I present to you (drum roll please), Shankar. I recall having read a number of posts to the effect that you mention. I also recall Eklavya taking up Indian posters as well, but shankar has been around longer on chowk.

So, now please can you respond to the question: how can you take your irritation at one man (jay) and condemn 1 billion people?

And one more thing: I read on another board that anNy is in hospital after an accident. binifer reported that. I have not heard anything more. I hope binifer or anyone else who knows anNy in real life will convey to anNy our best wishes from chowk for a full and fast recovery.

Too often we forget that behind these posts are real people with real lives.

Zahra #157 I wrote #160 defending urstruly`s human rights even before I saw your post #157. As you can see, I am on duty on this board, and PROTEST (I do not consider myself so good as to SCOLD anyone other than myself sometimes) below the belt shots regardless of the parties involved.

Now please dont encourage urstruly: rather use your influence to get him to mend his misguided ways. :-)

Pakistan: Needs boost on IT front

http://www.zdnetindia.com/news/features/stories/31506.html

RE: TAhmad

``Having said that, I must now protest your name-calling of urstruly which is not fair to him or to the rest of us. Thank you.``

Yes, but I am known for that on Chowk. You on the other hand or not...hence my support.

(Each person needs to be considered on an individual basis...some of these people are rightfully called what they deserve to be called.)

Scout Dear;

Thanks for your polite wishes.

Just wanted to let you know that I had some resentment on the use of ``I think`` in your post 128 :)!

Hope everything is good on your end. It`s a beautiful time of the year to enjoy roller-skating, if you are into it. Even if you aren`t, start looking into it.

Take Care.
Bye Bye.

Waheed:

Try the following email addresses:

IT Commission`s: secyitc@isb.comsats.net.pk

Mr. Ata`s: minister@most.gov.pk

I think they are listed somewhere on a website as well.

The Minister`s email address was given to me by a friend, so I am not exactly sure if I had it right, but you can go ahead and try sending a ``test message.`` :)

Good Luck.

RSaxena #155: I appreciate your support in your earlier post, and I dont wish to sound like a moralizer, and I am in the process of questioning urstruly`s choice of words and blanket condemnations in his original post.

Having said that, I must now protest your name-calling of urstruly which is not fair to him or to the rest of us. Thank you.

URS Post 154:

Amazingly beautiful end. I liked the last few sentences very much. They said it all!!! :) :) :)

Take Care.

Urstruly 153:

Very good suggestion!

Keep It Up.

:)

Tahmed:

Please stop scolding URS unnecessarily. If you can lose your composure and express your disgust with metaphors, he can do the same[if the need arises]. I think you should stop giving him any darus. No need to be so unkind to him. OK!!!

Thanks.

Harish:

Each and every word of your post was amusing. That`s all I have to say. I have the bad habit of laughing, jumping, taking a somersault whenever I want to. Hope that says it all on ``laughing.``

Now, if you read my following statement, you will see that it was not a stand-alone statement.

``I do not think you are entitled to make such sweeping statements. Please think before you write than afterwards.``

It has been my common observation that many from your end may write lumbae-churae-saheefae on Chowk, but there are very few, regardless of their age, who are able to comprehend and understand different tones in an interact. Probably, your side understands your way of thinking and vice versa. This has not been the first time that I have noticed this peculiarity. I have talked to a few from your end as well and I can tell you that it is pretty disappointing to interact with people who are not on the same page.

Take Care.

Re: cockroach

``Stay in your own league and keep it in between you Scout and other kids. I have made you whine, groan and moan more than once. Now its getting boring.``

Don`t get angry at me because your promised-virgin count has been decreased by 20. I am only the messanger.

Dost_Mitter

I fully agree and endorse your paragraph 3, 4, & 5.

I do not agree with the conclusion that you drew in paragraph 1. I could explain it to you but I would rather suggest that you observe the discussion that is on going between me and tahmad. See the previous posts too when Mr. tahmad decided to test his luck the upteenth time.

Paragraph 2 is a welcome change. I hope you guys keep it up without you know what.


tahmad:

I will hold my answer to your question regarding Eklavya until you answer my question on what was the context of my post; but I will give you one name for now i.e.Dost_mitter. And Dost_mitter this opinion is subject to change since I am not in a business of giving out character certificates to the interactors here. Mr. tahmad can keep his job.

RSaxena # 149

Stay in your own league and keep it in between you Scout and other kids. I have made you whine, groan and moan more than once. Now its getting boring.

tahmad # 151

I will sure answer your question.

But since now when you have finally admitted what my full statement is, tell me in what context it is written?

You will get your answer when you answer the above question.

And I see that you have two different standards for what you refer to as ``foul language``-one for yourself and one for the rest. So what is your point?

urstruly #145 OK. Take the entire para. then. Now go and show me one post from Eklayva that is not decent.

This sir is your second post where you have dodged the simple question I posed in response to your statement. I think you know what the answer is. So be a man and admit you were wrong. You are so far out of line from common sense and rationality that one could travel from Detroit to Pakistan and back 10 times before travelling the distance between you and the lines of logic and rationality. OK, I exaggerate - but you get my point I hope.

PS I dont exaggerate about your foul language though - and I do mean it when I ask if you would use the same language at home. And dont just point fingers back at me - point to me one sentence where I have used such language in any one of the couple of hundred of posts I have written on chowk. And if you cant, dont change the subject, but be a man and admit your mistakes. I think you are a better person than you try your best to appear on chowk.

urstruly #145 ``the way arent you the guy who were referring to other interactors as gutter dwellers and cockroaches``

Moi? OK, I admit it: I did suggest that one poster have a brain transplant with a roach to increase the IQ level. This was mean on my part, and I apologized not once but three times on that board to that person and to other chowk posters. On gutter dwelling, that was in response to a poster based on the language he used. I apologized to him too for getting personal.

What I did not do was condemn an entire community, let alone all Indians or all Hindus. Just those two posters and there too I apologized and they accepted my apology.

You are gonna have to do better than that pal to pin one on me.

Now getting back to your condemnation of one billion souls based on irritation with one person (jay)...

Re: cockroach #145

Do you have no shame? You keep digging yourself into a deeper sewer arguing this with TAhmed. He`s right. Admit it and move on to urging more poor mothers in Pakistan to send their sons to Kashmir so you can come to Chowk to rattle your beard at Indians.

Re: Harish

``I just thought it was little preachy of you to tell someone else on chowk they weren’t “entitled” to express an opinion. And it’s also a good way of not actually addressing what the other person said. Did I not understand you?``

Oh you understood her alright. But what do you expect her to say? She was trapped and still hasn`t responded to my post pointing out all the contradictions in her statement. And I don`t expect her to. She`ll throw around some shairi fairi and make a few random comments and leave it at that.

Re: stout

Must you continue to post while PMS-ing? How about waiting a few months till it ends?

tahmad # 321

You have done it again. You have again misquoted me, and it is you who have tried to change the subject. Again, this is not my full statement:

{- They claim to be decent but I have never seen even one of them to exhibit decency (unless one of us, i.e. usually me, gives them a chilli coated finger).}

The following is my full statement. and for your convenience I had put QUOTE, END QUOTE at the begining and end of the statement which you again conveniently omitted to make a point. I am doing it again for you:

QUOTE
As usual you are missing the point. I know the urdu proverb and its meaning i.e. not all five fingures are equal, very well. But whenever we talk about ``them`` the conventional wisdom fails.

- They claim to be decent but I have never seen even one of them to exhibit decency (unless one of us, i.e. usually me, gives them a chilli coated finger). The people like chootyam parshad and lalloo naath can insult everything that pertains to being muslim, and pakistani yet none of them finds enough courage to stand up against them (by themselves). Not even one out of 800 million? So what does it tell ya? I know tens of Pakistanis who take serious offence when I call them ``Hindus`` (Is it a slur?). Why aint such people on their side? If you know anyone plz name him. It will be a matter of hours I will dig up something and will prove you wrong.

END QUOTE

And by the way arent you the guy who were referring to other interactors as gutter dwellers and cockroaches etc. on the other board. Was that also something your mommy tauhght you at home or you were just expressing your anger with the bigots aka people who differ with your political agenda (or a better statement is ``you were expressing your anger with the people who try to point out to your forked tongue)

urstruly #134 OK. Here is your complete statement: ``They claim to be decent but I have never seen even one of them to exhibit decency (unless one of us, i.e. usually me, gives them a chilli coated finger). ``

My response remains the same: show me one post from Eklavya where he has not exhibited decency even without the ``benefit`` of insults from you or anyone else.

Notice I have not used your wonderful choice of words - I hope you do not use these words in your everyday life and in your household, although you obviously dont mind using such language on chowk.

Now: Please get back to my question and dont try to change the subject. And then please give some thought to how unfair you can be when applying the same brush to people whose only ``crime`` is that they are Indian citizens or that they are of a different religion.

(PS Eklavya, if you are reading this, my apologies for dragging you in - but I needed an example to present to urstruly and you came to mind).

Re: # 129

``Whatever its age, today Sanskrit is not only the language of the dead, it is dead as far as a language is concerned``.

Shah,

Your quote from Mr Guruswamy`s article in tehelka.com that i have pasted above is pure Bull.Sanskrit is by no means a dead language. It is spoken by a very small percentage of people. There is still a lot of literature coming out in that language,written mostly by scholars. Of course,if author had said that Sanskrit is not a language of popular communication,i would have agreed. But,dead language? Give me a break. There is a center of Vedic study in UC-Berkley headed by an American. Japan has at least 70 universities studying sanskrit to interpret vast amount of Buddhist literature in that language (Nagarjuna`s classic``Ashwaghosha`` and many other buddhist works are in sanskrit). Recently one Mr Narayana Shastri is spearheading a movement to make sanskrit popular among the masses and to dispel the notion that it is a difficult language and that only brahmins have to learn it. Two districts in India (one in Karnataka and another in Madhya Pradesh)have been decleared ``sanskrit literate``. You can look into www. sanskritbharati.org for more details.

I myself can understand sanskrit and personally know some who are very proficient in this language. One of my cousins is married to a sanskrit professor who left his job in Delhi University to join another place in Karnataka. He

is fluent in this language. There is a popular misconception among Indians that this is a dead language. Those who say such things are,as far as i am concerned,brain dead.

Sanskrit,though called a ``Deva-bhasha`` or language of Gods,has same pride of place as any other language. Tamil as a language is equally old. Many temples in Tamil Nadu perform Puja in Tamil rather than Sanskrit. The author of this article seems to be both ignorant and biased. Indians are better of without such people.

Sridhar

Zahra

Thanks for the explanation and you’re welcome for the laugh. But I’m still unclear. Could you explain what about my post made you laugh?

I just thought it was little preachy of you to tell someone else on chowk they weren’t “entitled” to express an opinion. And it’s also a good way of not actually addressing what the other person said. Did I not understand you? Or maybe I took what you said out of context?

Thanks,

harish

Raveena #128,

some things don`t have to be said, they are apparent.

ab aram say betho beti, i think Zahra just kicked your behind bigtime.

Harish3:

It means:

L - Laughing
O - Or Phir
L - Loat Poat [Huns Huns Kur]

In short, thank you for a very good laugh :)

zahra # 137

what does LOL stand for?

harish

Re:Reply #: 130

RSaxena,

I totally agree with you. I am amazed at Pakistani dictator`s insistence on prioritizing Kashmir problem over Pakistan`s economy. As per Zafar Agha`s report in Tehelka.com, he has soared on the popularity back in his country after talking tough on Kashmir. Meanwhile,his country`s economy continues to sink. Another good point brought out by the same author was that people of India have not forgotten Kargil. There are T.V programs in India T.V channel where the question often asked is: Can we trust this man? My answer would be a big NO. He may be the best bet for Pakistan, but he needs to understand that no problem between the 2 countries can be solved if people do not agree to be involved. As i see it now, Indians have not gotten over Kargil. With failure of the summit,there are tough times ahead.

Sridhar

harish 3:

Wow! What an insightful finding! You indeed have a unique sense of humor.[LOL]

Saxena:

Thanks for your phoki(shallow)arguments! Keep it up!!!

Upman Post 113:

I want to do justice to your post and will get back to you later.

Thanks.

tahmad #131

Sure lets talk about sincerety first.

The translation of the first part of Kalima Tayyaba is ``There is no God but Allah.....``

What you have done is, you took ``There is no God`` part only and trying to prove that Islam is an atheist religion. This analogy shows that how you have taken just a part of my statement and gave it a meaning that you wanted to show. Sincerety my ass. You are missing the whole point again. My question and contention always is why I always have to use my chilli coated finger to prompt them to exhibit that they are decent. May be they are more decent than any maajha and saajha of Pakistan but they gotta show it-otherwise it is just a tree falling in jungle when no one was around kinda thing.

Here is my statement again; and remember zoar kis par hooa, chilli coated fingers par:

QUOTE
As usual you are missing the point. I know the urdu proverb and its meaning i.e. not all five fingures are equal, very well. But whenever we talk about ``them`` the conventional wisdom fails.
- They claim to be decent but I have never seen even one of them to exhibit decency (unless one of us, i.e. usually me, gives them a chilli coated finger). The people like chootyam parshad and lalloo naath can insult everything that pertains to being muslim, and pakistani yet none of them finds enough courage to stand up against them (by themselves). Not even one out of 800 million? So what does it tell ya? I know tens of Pakistanis who take serious offence when I call them ``Hindus`` (Is it a slur?). Why aint such people on their side? If you know anyone plz name him. It will be a matter of hours I will dig up something and will prove you wrong.

END QUOTE

PS. If you want to master what you just did contact Pervert Massih-he is one of a kind in this business

Re: All,

So does the I.T man Dr. Atta has an email address yet? I have asked about this previously as well, any help would be greatly appreciated. Need to talk a little about a satellite burst modem if curiousity gets the better of you all...;-)

thanks

urstruly #118 ``I have never seen even one of them (Indians/Hindus) to exhibit decency ``

Now we are getting somewhere. Please read posts from Eklavya and show one sentence he has written that is anything but decent. I could give you more examples, but let`s get started on this long road with just one poster from the ``tribe`` you seem to detest so much. I believe you are a sincere person, and will not let me down (and more important, let yourself down) by finding some clever explanation on why your sentence above is not incorrect.

Musharraf has proven again that Pakistan Army or Establishment`s motto is:-

HUM NAHI SUDHARENGE

Read the statement below by Musharraf carefully. Pakistan is willing to sideline its economy (i.e. the well-being of its people) and even risk nuclear destruction to win some territory in Kashmir. How disgusting is that? If ABV ever made such a statement (that he would sacrifice our economy for Kashmir), the NDA would get thrown out so fast he wouldn`t know what hit him.

This element of sadism in Pakistan continues to amaze me. I can`t get over mothers who willingly send their sons to death in Kashmir in the name of shahadat. I can`t get over Urstruly who urges them to keep doing it, rattling his beard with bravado from the safety of his couch.

Quote:

``No leader in Pakistan can allow the sidelining of Kashmir for the sake of economy, confidence building, nuclear, everything.``

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

RE: spout

Who said I was squirming? Sab ko apne jaisaa samajh rakha hai? Homey don`t play that.

Re:shammi#126

Shammi, I will take the analysis even further. The reality is that hindus and muslims were socially alienated from each other for centuries, although they coexisted for a 1000 years. I have seen even in my parent`s generation, people were not willing to offer a glass of water to a muslim, beleiving that it would pollute the glass. Any utensil used for such a purpose, was kept separate for special cleaning. I am sure muslims also had similar sentiments about hindus. If this was the situation in the 20th century, you can imagine what it was in the past. I admit that today, things are much better and the new generation certainly does not follow the same kind of taboos. However, the past was really brutal and we cannot ignore that. This happenned in spite of our knowing that these muslims were descendents of hindus, which is an indication of our collective myopia.

You cannot remain socially isolated and build a common nation, unless there are special protections for the minority. We did this with the scheduled castes and tribes, but we balked at the prospect of any special protection for muslims. This was the real reason for partition.

Re: Hobbyty & Urstruly

I would like to add to your analysis about why TNT took a strong hold. It is indeed true that Congress probably overplayed its hand in the 1937 (not `38) elections, that ultimately came back to haunt it. Congress` denial of any ministerial berths to the Muslim League may have been short-sighted, and the spark that lit the subsequent fire. However, there was another macro trend affecting N. Indian muslims. That was the British vengeful attitude towards Muslims following the Mutiny of 1857, and the loss of privilege by Muslim nobility. The Mutiny saw Bahadur Shah Zafar being anointed emperor of India by a largely Hindu army (an example that we from the Subcontinent should be all proud of). However, after the Mutiny was ruthlessly put down, Muslims fell out of favor with the British, since they were seen as being loyal to the last vestiges of the Mughal empire. For the Muslim nobility of N. India (from which the likes of Liaquat Ali Khan and Shaharyar M. Khan were to later emerge) this fall from an exalted position and loss of political power was a harder pill to swallow than for almost any other community (including Hindus). This is the larger undercurrent that climaxed in the `37 elections from which there was no looking back.

Ras Siddiqi #144 The article you posted is an indication of how primitive both India and Pakistan are emotionally and culturally even as they have pretensions to nuclear power status and IT: the article points to Indians and Pakistanis sharing (a) common religious practices revolving around the worshipping of dead ``saints`` and (b) common race or something (i.e. the same tired refrain about Pakistanis wanting to be Arabs forgetting their Indian race that I must have read 1 million times by now on chowk from Indian posters). I look forward to the day when we have an article which points to Indians and Pakistanis sharing certain common VALUES, like non-violence, like learning, like clean neighborhoods, like the rule of law, like modesty. Forget race and forget religion as a basis for being ``one people``. Race and religion are not forces that unit, they are forces that divide. What unites people are values. That is what has made USA what it is.

Rsuxena #121,

Yes, seeing you squirm is amusing to me. Kapeesh?

It`s the simple things in life that matter.

tahmad321 # 118

As usual you are missing the point. I know the urdu proverb and its meaning i.e. not all five fingures are equal, very well. But whenever we talk about ``them`` the conventional wisdom fails.

- They claim to be decent but I have never seen even one of them to exhibit decency (unless one of us, i.e. usually me, gives them a chilli coated finger). The people like chootyam parshad and lalloo naath can insult everything that pertains to being muslim, and pakistani yet none of them finds enough courage to stand up against them (by themselves). Not even one out of 800 million? So what does it tell ya? I know tens of Pakistanis who take serious offence when I call them ``Hindus`` (Is it a slur?). Why aint such people on their side? If you know anyone plz name him. It will be a matter of hours I will dig up something and will prove you wrong.

From The Times of India today:

In visiting Ajmer, the General concedes a point

By Manoj Joshi

Pakistanis make a fetish of their ``differentness`` from ``Hindu`` India and its inhabitants, but there`s one thing they don`t reject - the continuing hold of ``Indian`` Islam in Pakistan. And it`ll be underscored when Gen Musharraf concludes his trip to India with a pilgrimage to the dargah of Khwaja Moinuddin Chisti in Ajmer - a visit to Hazrat Nizamuddin Aulia`s shrine in Delhi was cancelled at the last minute because of scheduling problems.

The General`s pilgrimage, a reaffirmation of the Indian roots of Pakistani Islam, not only emphasises a common cultural past but also puts him four-square against disturbing trends in his country that seek to purge Islam of subcontinental characteristics. Organisations like the Jamiat Ahle Hadis, the Jamaat-e-Islami, Tablighi Jamaat and the Lashkar-e-Taiba`s parent arm, the Markaz-dawa-ul-Irshad (MDI), believe that practices such as visiting the shrines of Sufi saints like Moinuddin Chisti and Nizamuddin Aulia are against the tenets of Islam.

Indeed, so austere are their beliefs that they oppose all schools of Islamic jurisprudence, including the Hanafi school favoured by the Indian ulema (clerics). They reject music and dancing, even of the spiritual kind favoured by the qawwals and dervishes. Once they are trained, the Lashkar militants drop their South Asian names and adopt Arabic monickers prefixed by ``Abu``.

Though many of Pakistan`s militant organisation`s swear formal allegiance to the South Asia`s dominant Islamic school - the Darul Uloom at Deoband near Saharanpur - they reject Deoband`s belief that Muslims can live in peace with other communities in South Asia. Radicalised by the Afghan jihad, they have now turned India-baiters. But while Deobandi groups like the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen call for a jihad against India only in Kashmir, others like the MDI and Jamiat Ahle Hadis see Kashmir as a gateway for a larger jihad across the world, but beginning with India.

Contrary to what fundamentalists - both Hindu and Muslim - believe, it was Muslim mystics like Khwaja Moinuddin Chisti and Nizamuddin Aulia, and not sword-wielding Sultans, who did much to spread Islam in India. Poets like Amir Khusrau who wrote in several languages, including Braj Bhasha, made major contributions to India`s composite culture.

Khwaja Moinuddin was initiated into the Chisti Sufi order in Central Asia and came to India following the establishment of the Delhi Sultanate in the last decade of the 12th century. After staying in Lahore and Delhi, he settled in Ajmer where he stayed till his death in 1236 at the age of 97. Though later the Naqshbandi silsila gained prominence under Mughal rule, today it is the saint of Ajmer who is venerated across the subcontinent, and not only by its Muslims.

Will shared history and culture symbolised by Agra and Ajmer provide the impetus for reconciliation between India and Pakistan? Perhaps with the Garib Nawaz`s blessings, it will.

urstruly #96 ``Your (jays) post is the best manifestation of Indian (read Hindu) mentality and psyche. I have been trying to convince most of the Pakis about this for quite sometime but it is so incomprehensible for any human being who is non-Hindu. They would rather blame me as being a bigot than accepting this reality about the way you people think.``

I agree that jay is a model jerk. But for you to take the posts of one man and condemn 1 billion Indians (or 800 million Hindus) is a bit of a leap, dont you think? And please assure me that there are no Pakis who are as evil minded as jay; that we have no killers, madmen, wife-beaters and thieves in Pakistan.

harish3 (continuation of my previous post) ...thoughtful one.

harish3 ``No one exposes the hypocrisy of the many confused pakis on chowk with as much humor and wit as you do.``

Is there a shortage of humor and wit then with which the hypocrisy and confusion among us Pakis is exposed? Any other sincere and insightful thoughts from you, oh

Re: scout

Doesn`t take much to get you salivating excited, does it? Enjoy, enjoy....the easily amused should take pleasure in the simple things.

Re: shrinko #112

Dude, that was lame. If you want a good ole fashion a$$ kicking from me, you`re gonna have to do a lot better than that to motivate me.

RE: Zahra

No need to get tied into a knot. Just read what you have written and recognize the contradictions. Sometimes it is best to think before writing.

``On an ending note: No one should ever dare to come and tell me to tell Yasser or anyone else anything.``

And who allowed you to dare to tell people on Chowk what statements they are or are not ``entitled`` to make?

``Stop acting like little kids who start whining every now and then when they don`t have a valid excuse.``

Very good advice indeed. Now follow it. Don`t ``whine`` because of what someone wrote on Chowk; particularly when that writing was not addressed to you directly (since according to your logic, people should not have the right to address any topic they want...only those which some arbitrary judge has decided they are ``entitled`` to address, right?).

``Yasser will write whatever he wants to write and so will the others.``

Goody goody goody ... now you do realize that everyone can write whatever they want to ... so next time don`t go around announcing who is ``entitled`` to make what statements.

Have a wonderful day. Go out in the sun, turn on the rap music, and dance all the anger away.

You are increasingly sounding incoherent Mr. Shankar. Why dont you lie down on a couch and do some introspection. Remember the basic rules of the game theory.

upman7626 #113
Re Kerala`s health system : There was an insurance scheme introduced by the govt some years ago, under which a one time payment of Rs 100 granted a person yearly cancer screening for life and covered cost of treatment if cancer was ever detected.

Zahra # 87

``In one documentary movie, a man from Kerala was shown in a state shock, after he heard about the shocking news that he was on the last stage of AIDS. No Resources to treat the fellow!``

...this is not to take away from the generous spirit of your post, but it may not be as bad as the this indicates, esp. in kerala...it may well be that NGOs in search for elusive funds are bound to exaggerate things a bit on international fora, and which may not be a bad thing...Kerala incidentally has an exemplary health record and delivery system- something the WHO considers a model for developing economies..and which prompted the Johns Hopkins Univ to want to start a tertiary referral centre there to study how a third world society could achieve first world standards in health indices (it almost went through till the communists in power there saw a CIA hand in that and rejected it!)...and kerala with one of the highest migrant-to-resident ratio anywhere being slightly more susceptible to HIV, the state govt. has put in a thorough notification-and-identification protocol which covers even the remotest PHC of the state...

..actually India may be one of the earliest third-world HIV pre-endemic country to have a high official and unofficial awareness of the problem (the doomsayers exaggerate)...India Today had a cover-story on the problem as early as 1992 and the media give it a disproportionate attention in contrast to less glamorous but more pressing problems like TB etc... and there seems to be numerous NGOs working on the problem..

...one of the most novel schemes started was in Calcutta`s redlight district known as the Green Coat project in which select(!) sex workers- who get green coats- themselves manage the AIDS and STD awareness programme in the local area...this has been so successful in creating public awareness that it has been since replicated in other parts of India and WHO has introduced it in several parts of africa...

...all this is not to deny that there is a problem but that it is being tackled and saying ``No Resources`` is stretching things a bit..

RSaxena,

Hey! I`m just acting at YOUR age & maturity level, you achoot you! Only then you can understand how ridiculous you sound. Ditto for your soulmates, Jay & harimou.

Gawd, I`ve gotta take a shower, once again, now that your bhangee shadows has been cast on my pure brahminic skin. Speaking of which, you have been somewhat tardy coming to my home to pick up my bucket of er..nightsoil... Sheesh..you bhangees have absolutely no work ethic!

All hail to these 3 musketeers of hinduism!

You`re a bunch of untouchables posing as frikking brahmin-wannabe`s. We KNOW your kind. Your jaat poses as brahmins & dips your lingums in the holy Ganga. No wonder that sacred body of water is the most polluted river on earth. Do us a favor & migrate to Pakistan & foul it up, you losers!

In the meantime my penis god allows me to hug as many frikking Pakis as I want. But dont you DARE come near me & sully my pure body with your accursed shadows. My water bills are high enough, as it is...

Zahra,

Kudos for getting Rsuxena squirming in his pants this time...Look at him getting all worked up because you decided to show him the mirror, in a very intelligent and polite way.

Saxena:

I am glad you took a serious note of the patronizing talk. I feel sad that you did not catch the gist: It was not a talk; it was a wakeup slap! Now go back and concentrate on the ``patronizing talk`` given to you than wasting your time. Oh, probably many of your countrymen and women are full of talk only. All talk and no substance! I ain`t surprised. Talk is cheap anyway!


A GENERAL NOTE:

On an ending note: No one should ever dare to come and tell me to tell Yasser or anyone else anything. If you have an issue, you need to have the backbone[if any] to resolve it with him or others. Stop acting like little kids who start whining every now and then when they don`t have a valid excuse. This is the second or third time I have head the stupid argument. Yasser will write whatever he wants to write and so will the others.

Good Day!

hobbyty # 94

I agree with your exception. But one must understand that the idea of two nations cannot just comes out of the blue or just one of the wildest dreams of a poet. THere has to be an impetus. I do think that the case for Pakistan (separate homeland) was very week since the two have been living together for millenum-it was the congress government of 1938 that broke the camels back. Hindus hegemonic intentions became so obvious and undeniable. And Muslim perception of that is proven right everyday even today.

Zahra # 87

Re: Rsaxena

“I do not think you are entitled to make such sweeping statements [on Pakistan].”

Rather then decreeing who is and isn’t allowed to talk about Pakistan, if you don’t agree with an opinion, you might instead comment on the validity of their statements. By your logic, none of us should be allowed to express a view on the holocaust b/c we aren’t german. Why not take some of your own advice and “think before you write than afterwards”

Rsaxena,

I love your posts. No one exposes the hypocrisy of the many confused pakis on chowk with as much humor and wit as you do.

Your reply to romair #10 was on point.

harish

# 105

The unfortunate but typical Indian (read Hindu) defence mechanism at work-`No answer, no problem; insult Islam, Muslims, and Pakistanis`. Now I am waiting for this character Jay`s response-``The half of Indian population is dying with AIDS because of TNT and because Pakistan is a failed state.

Jay:

I think it has been a year or so that I have even cared to checkout whether you are alive or gone. Oh, glad to read that you are alive! Kindly concentrate on the ``situation`` of your own country. Beyond that it would be a waste of my time to even consider responding to you.

Re: Urstruly

``I send 10s of 1000s of la`nat on you son of a bi-tch and also the f-king asswhole liberals on our side ``

Allah is watching you and, for using that language, she has just deducted 20 virgins from the 72 promised to you.

RE: shrinko

``Youre right about that--esp when it comes to idiots like you.``

What`s the matter shrinko? Grow up and act your age for a change.

RE: rsridhar

``Tell that to a Pakistani,most of who seem to have a problem with their identity. If not, this topic would not be so emotional to them.``

Please stop pointing out similarities between Indian and Pakistan cultures, roots, etc. While that is not your intention, it is embarassing and disgusting when the lunatics across the border think we want some kind of a union with Pakistan. Indians want that as much as they want their left arms chopped off.

And to Pakistanis, please stop deluding yourselves; India does not want Pakistan. We stand to gain nothing by absorbing a bankrupt country with a liking for coups and single-religion states.

Re: Zahra

``Pakistan has issues just like any other country. The issues are of different nature from those of India; but they are still issues and certainly need to be addressed by Pakistanis only.``

Excellent idea, now why don`t you teach some of your countrymen on Chowk (and the CE if you can) the same? Kashmir, for example, is one of these ``issues`` India has...please allow Indians the same right you are demanding above...Kashmir needs to be addressed by Indians ONLY.

Re: Zahra

Thanks for that patronizing little talk, but do save it. I think the oh-sho-shweet ylhs and Urstrulys could use it a little more than I can. I am as entitled to make those statements about Pakistan as Urstruly, for example, is about Kashmir (an Indian state) and the Indian army.

And shame on you for not recognizing that and trying to exploit AIDS victims in Chowk politics.

Btw, there was nothing untrue about what I said...Jehadism, military dictatorships, and a non-secular state ARE a reality in Pakistan...these are not opinions, they are facts.

Harmanu

Sorry, I forgot to give you a web address:

www.itihaas.com/ancient/indus/html#1

Part three

Harimau

Please review the following and tell me if this sounds like science or misplaced pride and the use of the archelogical record to serve state purposes:

``Meanwhile, independent evidence started flowing in when Indus seals were found both in Iraq, where the ancient Sumer civilisation flourished, and in the Persian Gulf. The Sumers apparently called India ``Meluha``, and their inscriptions talk of how they purchased beads of various kinds, timber, copper, gold and ivory crafts from India. It was evident that the goods were upmarket and purchased by the Sumer royalty. Indus sailors appear to have discovered the trade winds long before Hippolus, and their maritime interests were vast. ``Harappan traders were among the most enterprising,`` says Jagat Pati Joshi, another former ASI director-general, who discovered Dholavira. Gold, for instance, was carted from distant Karnataka, and then hammered into delightful chains to be exported to Sumer. A lapis lazuli bead factory recently discovered in distant Shortugai in Afghanistan is believed to have been a major supplier to Harappan traders.

Like modern-day Indian businessmen, the Harappans had a huge domestic market to cater to.``

India? not the Indus cum Sarasvati Civilization?

Note the meshing of the past with the present; it might as well be 7000 years ago. It all fits so neatly, only problem is, This is fiction. This is not science but rather the creation of a national history in a nation state that did not exist but 54 years ago. Is this not so?

Rigveda or science? :

``Whatever the cause, it would take another 1,000 years for a semblance of civilisation to return to the subcontinent -- a dire warning to modern India of the catastrophe that can befall an errant populace.`` Oh, so that was ancient India? and you say this is science? not the distortion of the archelogical record? Not the creation of a national history where one unifying history did not exist? You be the judge? Tell me, do either Pakistanis or Indians need pride so bad they have create such distorions of the archelogical record?

Part two

Harimau

You and all Chowkwalleh be the judge if this is science or the use of the archeological record to justify as precedent, to promote state values:

``Lal`s findings have been corroborated by other sites excavated in the past decade. Analysis of the skeletal remains, including the ones found recently at Dholavira, indicate that they are basically the same as present-day Indians.`` (basically the same?, could be be more vague?)

``Harvard anthropologist Richard Meadows, who made an extensive study of skeletal remains in the region, showed that the people were in good health and, more importantly, there was a diverse mix of population just as at the present. So the question had to be modified to: Who were these peoples?

Given the vastness of the Indus empire, V.H. Sonawane, director, Department of Archaeology and Ancient History in the MS University of Baroda, points out: ``The first casualty is the earlier notion of a Harappan homogeneity. It is clear that there was tremendous regional diversity just as we have in modern India.`` But was this assemblage of people originally from the subcontinent or did they come as migrant hordes from Central Asia? New evidence from several sites both in India and Pakistan show a remarkable continuity of culture over a period of 2,000 to 3,000 years before the Indus Valley peaked. Dholavira, for instance, shows the existence of small farming and pastoral villages on the same site before it was transformed into a bustling metropolis.

Mughal`s studies in Pakistan have helped chalk out an approximate chronology of the changes. The beginnings of village farming communities and pastoral camps were reported as early as 7000 to 5000 BC. But developed farming communities, which grew wheat and barley, emerged around 4300 BC. In a site called Mehrgarh near the Bolan river in Baluchistan province, there are signs of agricultural surplus with the establishment of community storage silos. The conclusion: Sorry to use the cliche, but we had unity in diversity even then.``

Unity in diversity?, Even then? Is this science?

or misplaced pride - you be the judge

Under the heading : Surprise, It was a Democracy

``That there was social stratification is evident from the way the towns were planned. The citadel was a good 20 ft higher than the lower or middle cities. It led Wisconsin archaeologist Jonathan Mark Kenoyer to envisage several competing classes of elite who maintained different levels of control. Instead of one social group with absolute control, he speculates that the rulers included merchants, ritual specialists and individuals who controlled resources such as land, livestock and raw materials. Maybe -- just maybe -- we are seeing an ancient democracy at work.``

Does this sound like science - It`s only saving grace is that the word ``Secular`` was avoided.

Are these not unique interpretatin of the archeological record? Do these interpretation not serve to construct a ``unique`` national history?

Part one

Harimau

Sir,

``...One may logically presume a connection, however tenuous, between those who live on these lands today and their ancient civilizations.``

Duh!

And the nature, other than tenuous, of the connection and it`s relationship with pride?

Cave paintings in Southern France suggest a connection between ancient painters and modern day French painters? And this should be a source of pride?? therefore a tenuous connection can be said to exist between the ancient cave painters and present day French persons? Cave painters were French Persons?

I believe you misunderstand the premise. We can feel pride about achievement, can we feel pride about ``science`` - How do we own it? Is the archelogical record science? Indeed it is, and the pride any person in the world will feel is related to honest science based answers to put together the pieces of the mysterious puzzle that is the Indus civilization.

I take exception to your comment that the governments of India and Pakistan do not write the history of the archelogical record whose excavation they fund. I also would bring your attention to the interpretation of the archelogical record to serve state values and to construct a unique national history: I encourage you to review the following:

Not Indus civilization but the Sarasvation Civilization (Rigveda to the rescue - of what? pride?)

`` With the prime sites, Mohenjodaro and Harappa, going to Pakistan, however, a feverish hunt began in India to locate and excavate Indus sites -- a race that its neighbour soon joined. In doing so, they began uncovering a civilisation so vast in its extent that at its peak it is estimated to have encompassed a staggering 1.5 million sq km -- an area larger than Western Europe. In size, it dwarfed contemporary civilisations in the Nile Valley in Egypt and in the Tigris and Euphrates valleys in Sumer (modern Iraq). Its geographical boundaries are now believed to extend up to the Iranian border on the west, Turkmenistan and Kashmir in the north, Delhi in the east and the Godavari Valley in the south.

A recent count showed that as many as 1,400 Indus sites have been found, of which 917 are in India, 481 in Pakistan and one in Afghanistan. While Mohenjodaro and Harappa were rightly regarded as principal cities, there were at least several others such as Rakhigarhi in Haryana and Ganweriwala in Pakistan`s Punjab province that match them both in size and importance. It is also apparent that the civilisation did not just centre on the Indus Valley. When the sites were plotted on a map of the subcontinent, archaeologists noticed a curious clustering of sites along the Ghaggar river which flows through Haryana and Rajasthan and runs almost parallel to the Indus. After entering Pakistan, where it is called Hakra, the river finally empties itself into the sea at the Rann. Over 175 sites were found along the alluvial plains of the Ghaggar as compared to 86 found in the Indus region.

What puzzled them was that the Ghaggar-Hakra river and most of its tributaries are dry and their courses have silted up. So why did so many cities come up on such a desiccated watersheet, especially at a time when rivers were the lifelines of civilisation? Unless, of course, at one time a mighty river flowed perennially. In their search for answers, Indus experts homed in on the Rigveda, which is believed to have been composed when the Indus Valley civilisation was on the decline. Many of its hymns mention a sacred river called Sarasvati, describing it as the foremost of rivers, big as the ocean, rising in the mountains and flowing between the Yamuna and Sutlej before entering the sea. But in later Vedic hymn it is no longer described as mighty.

In the `80s, Indian satellite images of the region showed that the ancient bed of the Ghaggar-Hakra river could be traced from the Sivaliks to the Rann of Kutch. Where it is not covered by sand, the bed of the river consists of a fertile loam and its width extends from three to 10 km on different parts of its course, making it a very large river. Putting together the evidence, V.N. Misra, director of the Department of Archaeology in the Deccan College, Pune, recently concluded that the Ghaggar-Hakra river was the Vedic Sarasvati and existed when the Indus civilisation flourished. Misra is now among the growing band of archaeologists demanding that the Indus be renamed the Sarasvati Valley civilisation.``

Jay # 95

Your post is the best manifestation of Indian (read Hindu) mentality and psyche. I have been trying to convince most of the Pakis about this for quite sometime but it is so incomprehensible for any human being who is non-Hindu. They would rather blame me as being a bigot than accepting this reality about the way you people think. Dear Pakis and other non-Hindus plz for once open up your eyes and read-and it is not written between the lines-it is right infront of you.

1. A sick, in pain and dying man is worthless; we should rather concentrate on the healthy ones.

2. And I am not exptrapolating the above but read millions of posts submitted by Indians:

- A dead Kashmiri deserve it (it does not matter if he is still an Indian national)

- A raped Kashmiri woman deserved it-it happens in all the wars, as if she is not even a human being.

- Genocide of Bangladeshi bad-Genocide of West Pakistanis never happened.

- It is correct to mend the ways of Taliban by inflicting a slow genocide on all afghanis through hunger and desease.

- A dead Palestinain deserves it, a dead Isreali soldier who was shot while killing children is a proof of Muslim terrorism.

- Untouchability maintains ``balance` in the society.



and this goddamned list goes on and on. And Jay dont you worry you are not alone. We have people (read animals-) like you on our side too who are selective about human pain and suffering. As if humans who differ with their political ideology do not feel pain, hunger, and desease. They claim to be the liberal and free thinkers. Jay! I am usually indifferent to your posts but this one does it. I send 10s of 1000s of la`nat on you son of a bi-tch and also the f-king asswhole liberals on our side who discrimnate between the suffering humans. If that makes me a biggot then so be it.

Zahra 87,

Next time when you attend such meeting, contribute sbstantively and donot follow the western line, ooh no one to care for the AIDS victim, no resources.

The aids suferer is terminally ill, and diverting resources to the last few years of that person is a waste if there is an opportunity to spend it on the health and education of the young.

If you had lived in pakistan with your eyes open, you would not have parroted the western line, in the US apparently 40 percent of the medical resources are spent on the last ten days of peoples lives.

People like are the curse of the thid world.

Urstruly 93

I think you are taking a rather narrow view of the anlysis - ``Why did Hindus and Muslims decide to part company and live in different states``

The question is posed fairly - One usually hears from Indians that Muslims ``broke their country`` as if they played no active part -

Also from my experience interacting and reading posts by Indians here on Chowk, I have the impression that when they say things like we are same and it was better when we were in one country that thay think they are expressing a friendly idea - And the Pakistani perception is the that such notions are the opposite of friendly. Similarly, when he suggests that we both see each other as unhappy states.

That Khalid Ahmed is a proponent of a general point of view to which I take excception should be clear to you and anyone else who has read my posts, however; he is correct in saying that far from bringing us together as persons, discussions of partition seperates us and in conclusion he suggests that Partition was due to differing nationalisms - Is that not the truth? That is that TNT is valid, because Hindu and Muslim nationalism are not the same and are incompatible, and therefore the two seperate states.

Doesn`t 71 war (Bangaldesh) negate TNT? on the contrary, if 71 was a negation of TNT, there would not be a Bangladesh or East Pakistan, but a united Indian Bengali state.

Hobbyty # 77

I have gone through Khalid Ahmad`s article. I think it is a pretty fair analysis of the situation. However, I do not agree with his usual liberal crap about Two Nations Theory though.

The creation of Bangladesh does not and cannot negate the TNT on which Pakistan was established. It actually strengthens the concept of TNT. THe creation of BD is actually a failure of united Pakistan to establish a political system based on Social Justice. Whenever there is no Social Justice in a society-the society automatically is divided into two factions-the oppressor and the oppressed. As long as Paksitan is on the ,map of the world-and it is gonna be there till the end of the world, Inshallah-it will remind Indians how their forefathers failed to convince a significant minority of united India i.e. Muslims, that a society based on the system of Social Justice is possible. The creation of akistan and Bangladesh thus affirm TNT.

Zahra #87,

It makes me proud that we have strong voiced and practical Pakistani women like you around.

Suxena,

{{I don`t think any Indians got their knickers in a knot, but you seem to have.}}

Youre right about that--esp when it comes to idiots like you.

Ref hobbyty #: 86

[What Indus civilization Identity are you talking about?

What connection do Indians have to Indus civilization other than that archeological sites exist within the territory of present day India?]

Unless you believe that all those people who created various civilizations (in the Nile Valley in Egypt, in the Tigris-Euphrates Valley in Mesopotamia, in the Indus Valley in present-day Pakistan, in the high Andes in South America, in and around Mexico City, in the Yucatan, in Belize and Guatemala, and in China) completely died out and new and alien races took over those lands, one may logically presume a connection, however tenuous, between those who live on these lands today and these ancient civilizations.

[This is a ultimately, dishonest attempt to make a past serve present day State ideology.]

The history of Moenja-daro and Harappa is not written by today`s Indian and Pakistani governments. They are the subject of years of archaelogical research. Those who do not want to accept the findings of such research are the only ones making a dishonest attempt to distance themselves from their past because of ideology.

Zahra # 87

Very Good. I wish for once they dont turn your post into a mudslinging match and contribute positively towards this human tragedy. Especially liked your comment ``not warriors but heroes in your own country``.

I also request all Indian warriors to start smelling the reality now. The word ``Taliban`` is out now-nobody cares about them no more; the word ``terrorism`` in conjunction with Pakistan is out too-US congress is in the process of repealing Presseler Ammendment. Kashmir and Indian atttrocities to its people have never been exposed so much before this summit. Some Indian spin doctors are being expected to lose their daily wages and jobs from now on. The word on the wall is ``cooperation`` and ``mutual interest``. Think about it-save your jobs.

Saxena:

``Pakistan does have its own unique culture & identity: Jehadism, military dictatorships, and a state which kicks secularism out the window.``

I do not think you are entitled to make such sweeping statements. Please think before you write than afterwards. Pakistan has issues just like any other country. The issues are of different nature from those of India; but they are still issues and certainly need to be addressed by Pakistanis only.

Indians should devote their precious time on issues prevalent in their own country than losing hair worrying about Pakistan. The kind sentiments/concerns are certainly well-taken!

I am not raising this matter in any condescending way. I recently attended a gathering by South Asian Against Aids Foundation (SAAAIDS) and was very surprised to see documentary movies on the stance of Indian masses. Do care to check it out on www.SAAAIDS.org! The fund-raiser was solely to address the AIDS issue in India.

The American Reporters and Journalists, who have been to Southern Parts of India and to Bombay, were in tears, while giving a speech about the prevalent situation due to AIDS. In one documentary movie, a man from Kerala was shown in a state shock, after he heard about the shocking news that he was on the last stage of AIDS. No Resources to treat the fellow! Women from Bombay were shown fighting against this disease and had very little resources, but still they were going out of the way to create awareness.

How many *loud mouths * on Chowk are willing to contribute any resources to the efforts in their own country? Wake up call!

Rather than being a warrior on Chowk, be a hero in your own country. You`d be far more well -recognized. Your efforts to hit-and-run or speak for the sake of it, aren`t going to even touch Pakistan in anway. Rest assured! Whereas, your efforts to assist your own country would reap some fruit for the good of your masses! Probably, it`s time that you should look into this matter seriously.

PS: Hope you will make a note of it.

Best Wishes.

PS: Sorry for the digression Ras Sid.

Maharana

What Indus civilization Identity are you talking about?

What connection do Indians have to Indus civilization other than that archeological sites exist within the territory of present day India?

This is a ultimately, dishonest attempt to make a past serve present day State ideology.

Chowk staff: Please let it go the first time itself.

Shashi # 75

``In fact you are right, all those who see this proposal of consolidation as threat do so for the fear that it is a threat to their new identity...without realizing that a consoliodated nation would be thier identity!...a stronger, larger identity.``

What identity are you talking about? An Egyptian muslim is proud of his heritage belonging to the ancient cicvilization, so are the Indonesians about there Hindu culture. But alas for the Pakistanis, there common heritage and culture is with the Indians, whom they have been taught to hate. Since, now apart from this common identity with Indians they have nothing else to form an identity, they are getting all the more frustrated. What an irony, for a nation, geographically located on the ruins of Indus valley civilization, to look for an identity towards Arabs, Turks or Persians. But then again, how many Pakistanis have you seen talking proudly about their connection with Indus valley cicvilization. Ofcourse remnanants of that culture still lives on in India and Pakistan too (I know Pakistanis would never accept that).

``All said and done, why was Pakistan created and how can it be justified?...by maintaining the constant rhetoric ``India was not good enough``...or perhaps a necessity of carving an identity out of the obvious looming truth INDIA..``

So India was good enough, only when Muslims were in power for 800 years before the advent of the British. Even the revolt of 1857, saw all Indians fighting the British united and trying to install Bahadur Shah Zafar as King of free India. What happened suddenly after that? Where did the pangs of fear from Hindus and Sikhs suddenly emerge in a Muslim`s psyche?

The concept of fear from Hindus & Sikhs suddenly emerge during the late stages of freedom struggle by a few power hungry people. How can you explain this new found fear of the majority community? In fact, the Hindus and Sikhs were at the receiving end most of the times during these 800 years. I am amazed at the ignorance perpetuated by the state of Pakistan just to nullify the guilt of its own creation. Even today muslims in Pakistan believe, that muslims were oppressed in the Britsh India and before that as well. Well, that does not explain the destruction of over 300 temples/places of learning in Northeren part of India. We do not know of any time in the medieval India, where muslims were repeatedly victimized.

Unfortunately today muslims are being oppressed by this ideological blunder created by the founders of Pakistan. They have ceased to progress and look forward as a community. The past 53 years have been a wasted effort, just in trying to prove they are different from India. While the reality screams otherwise. Its like esat and west germany, south or North korea, all of whom are/were politically divided yet culturally similar.

Well, I guess its not in the destiny of India to be a great nation for a long time to come. Not until atleast, we resolve our differences and come to a common vision of the future, past and present.

Adios

Re: headshrinker

``Why do we Indians get our knickers bunched up if Pakistanis want to proclaim a unique culture & identity?!``

I don`t think any Indians got their knickers in a knot, but you seem to have.

Pakistan does have its own unique culture & identity: Jehadism, military dictatorships, and a state which kicks secularism out the window.

RE:Reply #: 81

shankar,

``Right or wrong, Pakistan was created; accept it, recognise it & for heaven`s sake--GET OVER IT!``

That was my post that you have attributed to RDesikan. Anyway, your point is well taken. Tell that to a Pakistani,most of who seem to have a problem with their identity. If not, this topic would not be so emotional to them. They need to realise that, like Canada is to USA, Pakistan is to India and move on.

sridhar

tahmed321 #79

{{It is best not to start speculating on other people`s personal tragedies.}}

Absolutely. Poor judgement on my part. (``previous post``??)

Rdesikan

{{{Pakistan, which has carved out a seperate geographical identiy 50 years ago, is now trying a formidable task of attaching culture to it. It is difficult to convince most Pakistanis that this is laughable at the least. Ultimately i guess they have to convince themselves first before convincing the world: that they belong to a culture distinctly seperate from the Indian culture. That is the ultimate test for them.}}}

Why do we Indians get our knickers bunched up if Pakistanis want to proclaim a unique culture & identity?! They have every right to. I cant possibly see anything wrong with that!

US & Canada have a lot of cultural similiarities; but I dont see the US getting all miffed when Canadians are proud of their differences?

Right or wrong, Pakistan was created; accept it, recognise it & for heaven`s sake--GET OVER IT!

Do you HONESTLY want the 2 countries to merge again?!

Musharraf makes history, pays homage to Mahatma

Press Trust of India

New Delhi, July 14: Virtually setting the tone for the Indo-Pak summit,Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf on Saturday said the requirement of peace between the two countries was never felt so severely in the past than today.

“Mahatma Gandhi devoted his entire life to the struggle for non-violence and peace. Never has the requirement of these ideals more severely felt than today, especially in the context of Pakistan-India relations,” Musharraf wrote in the visitors` message book at Gandhiji`s Samadhi at Rajghat.

Paying glowing tributes to Bapu, the first Pakistani head of state to visit the memorial said ``I came here to pay respects and homage to the memory of Mahatma Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, father of the Indian nation.

``May his soul rest in eternal peace``, the Pakistani President wrote and signed as ``General Pervez Musharraf.”

Commenting on Musharraf`s message, Union Urban Development Minister Jagmohan said regeneration of Gandhiji`s spirit of non-violence and ideals of peace would help both India and Pakistan to have a fruitful dialogue.

Underlining the importance of friendship between the two countries, he said ``nothing will please the soul of the Mahatma more than an agreement on peace.``

In a goodwill gesture, Musharraf has presented Jagmohan some books on Pakistan and its history after paying homage to the father of the nation.

mithuna: (continuation of my previous post) And it may even have been a traffic accident as Syed Ahmed says, since what I heard about Afghanistan was also second hand. But it was definitely not Kashmir as the post you quote would have it, given the timing. It is best not to start speculating on other people`s personal tragedies.

Reproducing that quote was insensitive on my part. My apologies for that. (The ``tall tales`` aren`t mine however... they`re Mr. Rizvi`s.)

Shashi, Zafar Al-Talib, Shammi, Dost Mittar, Tantrologician, Eglaitarian Brahmin, Farzana Varsey, Stuka, Anarayan, Tahmed, Urstruly, YLH, Sarwari,Romair,Hamidm

Ras Siddiqui, it`s a rule to never start with an apology, I have to break this rule, coz it`s very very important - Please see and read Khalid Ahmed`s `The Divided Mythology of Partition`` in this week`s The Friday Times (www.thefridaytimes.com). Comments are invited.

Re:Reply #: 54

shashi,

A nice post but i am afraid you are wasting your time. Most Pakistanis are indoctrinated to believe they are different and belong to a different culture. My eyes opened to the truth only when i interacted closely with a Pakistani friend and realised how similar we both were. We spoke and understood the same language,liked to go to same movies and had similar other interests. If this does not form the basis of a similar culture, what else does form such a basis? The same friend also shunned the company of another Palestenian colleague (a muslim) and got invited to all the indian homes.

Even from a spiritual sense, India or Bharat had existed for millenia. For thousands of years, when a yagna is performed the pundits call out the name of the place and time of the ceremony. The names used for many millenia (and finds a place in Rig Veda)are Bharatadesh and Jambudvipa. Apparently India was then said to belong to continent of Jambu as per the learned people of that time. So the name ``Bharat`` is even older than ``India`` and encompassed what is today Afghanistan (called``Avagana`` then), Pakistan and India. Burma was ``Brahmasthana`` or abode of brahma, Bhutan was ``Bhutasthana`` and so on. British gave India a definite geographical identity. Pakistan, which has carved out a seperate geographical identiy 50 years ago, is now trying a formidable task of attaching culture to it. It is difficult to convince most Pakistanis that this is laughable at the least. Ultimately i guess they have to convince themselves first before convincing the world: that they belong to a culture distinctly seperate from the Indian culture. That is the ultimate test for them.

Sridhar

hobbyty #57

you have a point there...there always exists a sense of paranoia..and it has a lot to do with size (size matters ;-))...more importantly for a nation which is still in the process of discovering, establishing and verifying its identity..it is difficult to think of ``pan-nationalism``..that pahse comes at a later stage...after the consolidation of its identity... and then patriotism too often leaves little ground for rationality!

XXabbu #58

Well said and thanks...hopefully amongst this baiting and mud slinging and the utter chaos..some reason will emerge some day...as they say ``let the hounds exhaust their barks...we`ll commence our hunt after that!``...nevertheless, I do find this site very interesting and at times informative as well!

Maharana #53

Tragedy is for those who realize that fragmentation...occurred ...pakistanis see it as a new beginning, a new birth - a new identity (which ina way it is)...and they are so excited by this new found identity...that they forget to se the loss of size and rationale of a united front...or perhaps it is because of the constant rhetoric in the country against India. All said and done, why was Pakistan created and how can it be justified?...by maintaining the constant rhetoric ``India was not good enough``...or perhaps a necessity of carving an identity out of the obvious looming truth INDIA...in fact a joke used to go around in the beauracracy in India (prior to the formation of Bangladesh)...Pakistanis cannot draw the map of their country without drawing the map of India...which exists in fiugurative way even today...and even in many ``neo Indians`` as well..who need a Pakistan to define their country India ! appalling is what i can say to that.

In fact you are right, all those who see this proposal of consolidation as threat do so for the fear that it is a threat to their new identity...without realizing that a consoliodated nation would be thier identity!...a stronger, larger identity...

ah! well! maybe it is the age old dilemma of what is more important...working in a Giant organization like GE or GM or working ina slim and trim entrepreneurial organization (before the stock option hysteria made them more attractive)...and here for all those who are looking for points for arguement...I confess that the current India cannot be a ``GE`` without Nepal, Bangladesh, or Pakistan

but if that were the case...so many small struggling republics would not have existed and a juggernaut Soviet (with a new, improved way of non-communist governance still posing a 1-1 challenge to the US hegemony) would have existed...

Re: mithuana

I believe Kithwari is a Kashmiri and quite vocal on Kashmiri affairs .. But please dont make
bullshit propoganda out of this man`s tragedy .. His son died on a vacation in Pakistan in some traffic accident...

Last I remember people in the US could sue for salander ( I assure you Kithwari has the resources) and your tall tale certainly qualifies it as one....

The fact is that the Government of India hasn`t figured out how to tax software yet. The day they do, you can rest assured that they will tax the hell out of it out of sheer idiocy and spite. Everytime the question of taxing software comes up -- the usual measures being the number of lines of code or the number of kilobytes sent across wires -- the industry successfully argues that these cannot apply to maintenance tasks where a few lines may be changed in a million lines of code but the entire code in its millions of lines will have to be exported.

The position of the GoI as an enabler (or disabler) of IT can be gauged by the fact that in the mid-80s, when TI attempted to install a dish antenna at its Bangalore facility, it took 18 months before they were given permission to have direct satellite uplink facility. The horror stories associated with running a software company in the early days of IT boom are known only to those who have experienced it. All of you H1-B code coolies ought to shut up and keep coding to keep your jobs.

Re. tahmed321 #26

``Farooq Kathiwari. And you are right: those who are accomplish things are not the ones who engage in conflicts (on chowk or outside) over religions and nationalities``

Not taking anything away from your main point, Farooq Kathwari may not be the best example. If Nusrat Rizvi of soc.culture.pakistan is to be believed, Kathwari`s son went away from a promising career to fight the Indian forces in Kashmir and was killed. (Nusrat Rizvi is quite hostile to Islam and Pakistan... but I don`t believe he would make this up.)

I quote Nusrat Rizvi`s post which can also be seen on google`s usenet archives at http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&safe=off&ic=1&th=7eb471bb35280049,4&seekm=398C274E.E81E22C7%40momin.com#p

{{Farouq Kathwari Pres. of Danbury based Ethan Allan Corp. also did something equally stupid in filling his son`s head usual Islamic nonsense. As a result he too took leave from Harvard Medical School to go fight in Kashmir. He did not know any Urdu or anything else about the conflict except that it was a fight between good and evil. Good meaning of course Islam and Hindu were no doubt the evil.

On an excursion in Kashmir his group saw an Indian military truck and decided to engage it by opening fire. The Indian soldiers returned fire and a shell fragment from a grenade severed an artery causing him to bleed to death. His comrades left his body on the scene for the Indian soldiers to find, where upon they found documents revealing his identity. American Embassy was informed which arranged his body to be send back to Connecticut.

At his funeral services a Jewish boy who was a childhood friend got up and shouted at his parents that ``my friend lies in that box today because YOU filled his head with hatred`` No other words were spoken afterwards.}}

Rdeskin and Anny

``But then I got out of school in 1976 and things might have changed.``

Things did not change at least in the CBSE/ICSE boards till 1995:-)(That was when I finished my high school(12th)).

tantralogician #62: ``This is not to stand in the way of Romair and his fantasies. But he should know that that this dichotomy he posits (between Indian IT and Paki IT professionals) is false. There is no comparison whatsoever in terms of numbers and impact. Romair should do the Paki comparison with IT professionals from Djibouti.``

I have never seen any group that consitutes a majority to be so paranoid. Is it a sign of an inferiority complex? You will rarely find Pakistanis being paranoid about Sri Lankans, but many Indians are amazingly paranoid about Pakistan; although the proportional sizes betweeen these countries are proportional, so to speak.

Unless, you have spend a great portion of your life with Indian and Pakistni IT professionals in North America (most Indians very rarely come across too many Pakistani IT professionals), I would have to guess that my experience in this area is greater than yours.

I fail to understand your use of the word, ``dichotomy,`` which means, ``division into two usually contradictory parts or opinions.`` I did not point towards any dichotomies. I just stated that Indian and Pakistani IT professionals tend to get along quite well in the USA. You can either agree or disagree. Can you point to any incidences which would indicate otherwise? I certanily cannot. What exactly does a dichotomy have to do with it?

I also never implied that there is any comparison in numbers or impact. I will the first to stated that Indians IT professinals are much larger in number, and have thus had a much larger impact. Infact I stated this in reply #2: ``The reason it seems like an Indian organization is because around 8.9 or so out of every 10 South Asian IT professionals in the US are Indian. 1 out of 10 is a Pakistani, and the remaining are from Bangladesh, Sri Lanka etc. Primarily because India is a much bigger country, and because India is still the only country that has been hit with the IT wave. Pakistan is just getting hit with this wave, so the ratios should improve soon.``

I have based my ratios on the reports that are sent out by the US INS. Where exactly did I state that Indians and Pakistanis have had an equal amount of impact, or are equal in numbers? Could you point it out? If not, then could you have the decency to admit your mistake?

As far as comparison with Djibouti: While it may make you happy to make such comparisons, I am afraid they are untrue. According the INS reports, Pakistan is normally tied for fourth (or fifth) in the total number of IT professionals sent to the US on a quarterly basis. India sent around 8600 in the first quarter, China around was second, Canada was third, and Pakistan was fourth or fifth at around 880. I don`t remember seeing Djibouti even being on the list.

This means for every Pakistan, there are around 9 to 10 Indian H-1s coming to the US in IT (this also means, for every Pakistani, there are around 9 or 10 Indians who are being sent back to India, after the current downturn in the US market). India`s population is around 7.5 times of Pakistan, and its sends 9.5 times the number of software engrs. to the US. Considering the fact that, the IT wave is just starting to hit Pakistan, Pakistan should be able to double its number as soon as some IT universities start functioning (there are only one of two software universities in Pakistan right now). That would bring the ratios in line with the population percentages.

So on what basis have you made your comparison with Djibouti? Or are you just being emotional? Once again, no need to be paranoid. Muslims did rule India for 1000 years, but that does not mean they will take over again. At least, not immediately :-)

RE Anny

It depends on what school syllabus is followed. If it is patterned after the O levels such as the ICSE, it`s pretty much the entire gamut of Indian history from the Indus valley to independence and beyond. And there is a bit of euro and American history thrown in as well. But then I got out of school in 1976 and things might have changed.

The state [central board] state syllabi vary but the general outline is pretty much the same. The local language history texts may have more of a local/regional focus. Of the Madarasa system, I really can`t tell.

I remember partition was covered, rather impartially, but after that, pakistan was not mentioned, except in context of the wars. No propaganda as far as I can attest and I suppose other ICSE or even the CBSE survivors can attest to that. It`s hard to polarize students when given the racial/enthnic mixes prevalent in the cities. You just can`t slam mogul rule [though Aurangzeb is treated way below par with Akbar who is lionized]when you`ve to muslim students sitting. Pretty balanced stuff overall.

Zafar/ tantralogician:

..although its more kind of semantics now, i`m inclined to support Zafar here....Indian IT was essentially a private endeavour and thats why there was a great deal of specticism in the industry when the govt. tried to come into it in a big way, as with the appointment of an `IT minister`, Pramod Mahajan...the tv stations and business mags were full of news why IT had done so well because the govt had not yet been bothered to interfere in it.....thankfully, even that has not made much of a (negative) difference...

i think in all this IT hoopla, we kind of forget one politician who may have played an important role- Rajiv Gandhi!....at a time when computers/IT were considered esoteric, anti-employment,anti-worker and what not, he sort of removed the mental block by going for computerisation in a big way......but that can hardly be considered govt support for the IT industry.....

Re: Zafar Al Talib, Tantralogician

I have to agree with Zafar on this. GOI was blissfully unaware of the IT revolution taking place overseas. There were no laws on regulating ecommerce (Heck, ecommerce was illegal under the antiquated Indian Telegraph Act of 1885 until replaced replaced recently). Wipro, Infosys, Satyam, etc. were started by entrepreneurs who received no govt. help. Govt. started evincing interest only when IT proved to be a foreign exchange earner. Today, the govt. has jumped on the bandwagon, but it is still private industry showing them the way. The Telecomm Act, Telecomm Regulatory Authority of India, deregulation are all being `guided` by private industry. Govt. interest and bureaucracy can easily kill the goose that lays the golden egg (Indian bureaucracy is infamous), and the `Ministry of IT (we must be the only country in the world to have such a thing) sends shudders down my spine.

manoj:

((on the question of history it will be interesting to hear from our Paki friends if Akbar & Jahangir are included in the Mughal history as taught in Pakistan?))

yep..in grade 6 as part of history..after that `pakstudies ` takes oevr in grade 10, inter and some university courses dealing with the khilafat movement, constitution making et all

what about you all?

Reply: tantralogician #62

ok - all implying shimplying aside, what it boils down to is this: in my opinion GOI doesn`t control the IT industry in the same way that it controlled, for example, the cement industry - and this has been good for the IT industry and for the country. If you disagree, fair enough.

(What does my digestion have to do with your academic advancement?)

# 54

I am sorry that I addressed you as Shammi-my bad.

Reply to #59

Zafar Al-Talib writes:

``So sorry Sarkar. Are you saying that the GOI led the development of the Indian IT industry, and that Govt. drives TIE?``

tantralogician: No.

Zafar Al-Talib:

``I didn`t say Govt had NO involvement in either.``

tantralogician: You implied that GoI had not been able to take control of IT, which is neither here nor there. If you had read a bit you would know that for once the GoI did do something right.

Zafar Al-Talib:

``If you respond to this posting, please do so....logically.``

tantralogician: First things first. Only after you have digested kindergarten material can we move on to Grade 1.

tantralogician

on the question of history it will be interesting to hear from our Paki friends if Akbar & Jahangir are included in the Mughal history as taught in Pakistan?

tahmed321 Reply #: 36

`` Hamid Gul #31 Are you the well known General Hamid Gul? ``

lol, what do YOU think?

(read: NOOO!!!)

Reply Tantralogician #48

So sorry Sarkar. Are you saying that the GOI led the development of the Indian IT industry, and that Govt. drives TIE? I didn`t say Govt had NO involvement in either. But you should keep in mind that all types jump on the bandwagon once something proves to be successful. And that continued success depends on making sure that the less competent of these types do no take control. If you respond to this posting, please do so....logically.

Ref Shashi #54

Shashi,

Very nice post. Straight from the heart :). However, I must sadly conclude that your noble and nuanced words would likely be lost on most people here. Perhaps you are new to Chowk, and dont know the brutal extent of cynicism that runs on either side here. I hope you dont get discouraged by the barbs you are gonna get. Keep those posts coming!

A word of caution - your unitarian thinking might be perceived rightly or wrongly by some people as a challenge to their identity or their national ideology. While most educated Indians implicitly believe in your idea, it cant hurt to emphasise to the other side that this is not ``Greater Bharat`` by other means. I have found that many Pakistanis are inexplicably wary of anything that refers to common heritage or culture. I dont know - maybe I would too, if I was a smaller country surrounded by a huge and culturally assertive neighbour.

Regards, xxabbu

Shashi 54

Sorry to stry from the theme of the board but a couple of clarifications.

It always puts Pakistanis in the uncomfortablable position of having to say ``no thanks`` to the kinds of notions you express and the way you have expressed them. In many ways Pakistanis and Indians share a complex heritage - This is an introvertable truth - but also complex:

Civilization has existed on the subcontinent for thousands of years, at least 7000 years of record. But it would be in correct, inaccurate to suggest that either Indians or Pakistanis or another nation state has a direct connection to that historical record. It is merely a historical record and no direct relationship towards any presentation today can be said to exist, most certainly with the historical record of more than two thousand years. The fact that Indus and Bolon civilizations have left historical record, does not mean that we can claim a direct relationship with them, it only confirms an accidental relationship to modern national presentations. To seek to incorporate this historical record in the service of the ideology of modern states in the subcontinent, educated persons will agree, is dishonest.

Whenever Indians suggest that we are one, or we are the same, it scares the daylight out of Pakistanis. It is understood to mean that our National aspirations shall be suffocated and that the history we have sacrificed to create is negated.

In my earlier post I had mentioned that there is a structural problem, impediment, hurdle to the amalgamation of economic interests in the sugcontinent. The size of India, the centrufugal pull of it`s economy and the prevalence of it`s idea of India; these do not make the task of amalgation easy, on the contrary they make it more difficult. I realize this may sound counter intuitive, yet it is true. The fact that national and international aspirations in Pakistan are at odds with the prevalent notions of India, in India should not cause us to discard the idea of economic cooperation, it does however; allow us to develop a more sophisticated intellectual construct to base economic cooperation.

So please do not consider your idea a emotional rejection but rather that it is a more complex situation. And the day will come where Indians and Pakistanis, Bangladeshi, Nepalese and Lankans can agree that their sense of identity is preserved, grows and this will enable them to enlarge, make space for, a sense of identity that is not threatened by other identities.

Response to #45

Romair writes:

``There is definitely an unexplainable understanding between Indian and Pakistani IT professionals in North America, which does not seem to exist in other areas and professions.``

This is not to stand in the way of Romair and his fantasies. But he should know that that this dichotomy he posits (between Indian IT and Paki IT professionals) is false. There is no comparison whatsoever in terms of numbers and impact. Romair should do the Paki comparison with IT professionals from Djibouti.

tantralogician

shammi # 54

It is an unfortunate attempt to cover up what you actually said in # 16. I expected a better candor from you and I would have respected you more if you had stood by your stance in # 16.

#54 is self contradictory at all places. I aint buying.

Shashi #16,

My previous post again did not go through, so here it is again.

``Lets get real...South Asian means indian...Indian not as the country as it exists today but India as it has been percieved for millenia- the civilization that stand about the Indus river...today you may call it a sub-continent...but that is one of the biggest tragedies in History! It makes more sense as a single country! (and that would mean that every resident of the geogrpahical ``sub-continent`` is a part of that country after all they share the same legacy of culture, history, philosophy and knowledge)``

Shashi, the first step in understanding a problem/tragedy would be to define it the way it is universally accepted. I`m afraid for most of the Pakistanis it is not a tragedy. Your statements like above for some reasons elicit deep seated fears about the Hindu hegemony and hence the need for a different nation for muslims (proven useless later on in 1971). Look at how many Indians consider it a tragedy too, hardly a few. In India history is taught in schools with the supreme objective of maintaining communal harmony. Pre-partition history puts the sole blame for the partition on Jinnah alone. In Pakistan on the other hand, history ceases to exist before Islam in any meaningful way to the people in the Indian sub-continent. Pakistan`s creators/founders in many ways made ample of efforts to create an identity specifically distinct from India (again hopeless in my view).

My whole point here is that, before you attempt to argue on this issue with a lot of Pakistanis and Indians triggering off mostly environmentally conditioned responses from them, try to elaborate further to everyone here as to why was the partition one of the biggest tragedies.

``since we are talking of the corprate world here...have heard of the consolidation pahses going on everywhere? You know why they are going on?..because if two entities coalasce into one the economies of scale kicks in, the new entity is larger has more clout, more power in the market..sometimes less overheads (one administration as against two!)``

Instead of the corporate world, look at the history of India. An old cliche ``united we stand, divided we fall`` seems to hold good throughout its 5 to 6000 years old history.

``There is nothing called south Asian...this word was created to fend of any serious contenders to the white hegemony- a united India ...but then so was the creation of Pakistan!...it is only us brown fools that are tricked into religious frenzies and fanaticisms and play into the designs of the white minds!``

Please don`t blame our shortcomings to the whites` doings. More than religion, a common man/woman in India did not care who ruled them. For it was merely a replacement from one jamindar to another under different rulers (mughals, british etc.). And thats why credit goes to Gandhi, for his effort to make the same common man aware of internal freedom before the external one.

``why else would we deny oursleves of our past, culture, knowldege and the collective unconscious? whats does religion come to us with anyway?..a few brainwaves from the enlightened, a ``message from the god`` through the revered seer and a lot of manipulations and misinterpretatons from those who want to inherit the seer`s ``enlightenment``...and what are these ``mesages from god`` anayway...the same old oft repeated truths packaged into a new form...is it more impirtant than our centuries old heritage, the knowldedge and wisdom collected by thousands of ancestors?``...

The knowledge and wisdom of thousands of our ancestors produced the likes of Vedas, Upanishads, Mahabharata, kabir and Nanak`s sayings etc. Please don`t deny them as being purely religious, because for many people like me these are our cultural heritage. Message from God or Godhead has never been responsible for warfares in our sub-continent as opposed to the ones in the three organized religions. While this is bitter truth and undigestible to many followers of organized religions, I don`t mind speaking out the same.

``Conclusion:

Let us refer to TIE as the forum of entrepreneurs from Real India...not just the fragment from the east or west...let us be proud of the achievements of the people from all corners of this landmass (that the whites now call the ``sub-continent``) as our own, coz we belong to one culture, one civilization that has lived through the stroms of time for more than 6000 years or perhaps more.``

100% agreement on that.

Adios

Shashi # 16

``Lets get real...South Asian means indian...Indian not as the country as it exists today but India as it has been percieved for millenia- the civilization that stand about the Indus river...today you may call it a sub-continent...but that is one of the biggest tragedies in History! It makes more sense as a single country! (and that would mean that every resident of the geogrpahical ``sub-continent`` is a part of that country after all they share the same legacy of culture, history, philosophy and knowledge)``

Shashi, the first step in understanding a problem/tragedy would be to define it the way it is universally accepted. I`m afraid for most of the Pakistanis it is not a tragedy. Your statements like above for some reasons elicit deep seated fears about the Hindu hegemony and hence the need for a different nation for muslims (proven useless later on in 1971). Look at how many Indians consider it a tragedy too, hardly a few. In India history is taught in schools with the supreme objective of maintaining communal harmony. Pre-partition history puts the sole blame for the partition on Jinnah alone. In Pakistan on the other hand, history ceases to exist before Islam in any meaningful way to the people in the Indian sub-continent. Pakistan`s creators/founders in many ways made ample of efforts to create an identity specifically distinct from India (again hopeless in my view).

My whole point here is that, before you attempt to argue on this issue with a lot of Pakistanis and Indians triggering off mostly environmentally conditioned responses from them, try to elaborate further to everyone here as to why was the partition one of the biggest tragedies.

``since we are talking of the corprate world here...have heard of the consolidation pahses going on everywhere? You know why they are going on?..because if two entities coalasce into one the economies of scale kicks in, the new entity is larger has more clout, more power in the market..sometimes less overheads (one administration as against two!)``

Instead of the corporate world, look at the history of India. An old cliche ``united we stand, divided we fall`` seems to hold good throughout its 5 to 6000 years old history.

``There is nothing called south Asian...this word was created to fend of any serious contenders to the white hegemony- a united India ...but then so was the creation of Pakistan!...it is only us brown fools that are tricked into religious frenzies and fanaticisms and play into the designs of the white minds!``

Please don`t blame our shortcomings to the whites` doings. More than religion, a common man/woman in India did not care who ruled them. For it was merely a replacement from one jamindar to another under different rulers (mughals, british etc.). And thats why credit goes to Gandhi, for his effort to make the same common man aware of internal freedom before the external one.

``why else would we deny oursleves of our past, culture, knowldege and the collective unconscious? whats does religion come to us with anyway?..a few brainwaves from the enlightened, a ``message from the god`` through the revered seer and a lot of manipulations and misinterpretatons from those who want to inherit the seer`s ``enlightenment``...and what are these ``mesages from god`` anayway...the same old oft repeated truths packaged into a new form...is it more impirtant than our centuries old heritage, the knowldedge and wisdom collected by thousands of ancestors?``...

The knowledge and wisdom of thousands of our ancestors produced the likes of Vedas, Upanishads, Mahabharata, kabir and Nanak`s sayings etc. Please don`t deny them as being purely religious, because for many people like me these are our cultural heritage. Message from God or Godhead has never been responsible for warfares in our sub-continent as opposed to the ones in the three organized religions. While this is bitter truth and undigestible to many followers of organized religions, I don`t mind speaking out the same.

``Conclusion:

Let us refer to TIE as the forum of entrepreneurs from Real India...not just the fragment from the east or west...let us be proud of the achievements of the people from all corners of this landmass (that the whites now call the ``sub-continent``) as our own, coz we belong to one culture, one civilization that has lived through the stroms of time for more than 6000 years or perhaps more.``

100% agreement on that.

Adios

correction #40: ``why not just say India, why use the word India.``

should read,

why not just say India, why use the word Indus.

``Actually, the only companies which consolidate on the lines you have mentioned are the results of hostile takeovers, not friendly mergers.``

should read,

Actually, the only companies which consolidate on the lines you have mentioned are the results of hostile takeovers, not friendly mergers. And hostile mergers result in loss of jobs, identity, and a reduction to second rate levels, for the employees and executives of the company which has been taken over.

Syed Ahmad: #23: Your post is very accurate.

I have also worked with, learned from, taught, attended seminars with, hired etc. hundreds of Indians in the US IT industry. Never faced a single problem. Infact, outside my Pakistani friends, I would count these IT Indians as my closest colleagues and friends. There is definitely an unexplainable understanding between Indian and Pakistani IT professionals in North America, which does not seem to exist in other areas and professions. Everyone wants to make money and learn. No one discusses politics. And most of all, everyone respects the others` ideals and boundaries.

That is why organizations like TiE are still inclusive, despite the fact that more than 85% of its members are Indians.

What is interesting is that outside TiE there seem to be many Indians who are hell bent on promoting TiE as there own, even though its leadership, being good businessmen, want to include everyone. If these rabble-rousers, outside TiE, ever get a hold of its leadership, it will be a loss to everyone.

Founding and running entrepreural organizations is not hard. There are many exclusive Indian and Pakistani organizations like that. Check out www.open-us.org. Founding and running entrepreneural organizations that are inclusive of everyone is very hard, specially if they involve Indians and Pakistanis. That is what makes TiE even more special.

Hats off to Kanwal Rekhi for personally going to Pakistan (and meeting with Musharraf, by the way) to open the Karachi and Lahore chapters of TiE.

P.S. If the Indians stop being paranoid about South Asian leadership, it will always remain in the hands of India, due to its large size. Similarly, if the Indians stop being paranoid about TiE, its leadership will always remain with Indians, due to their large percentage of in its toatl membership. Why are Indians so paranoid about things like this, even when they are in such a huge majority? Don`t worry the Pakistanis are not going to take over. At least, not yet :-)

In my native tongue there is a character translated as ``fighting Semakka``...if someone asks her ``Kya chaachi tabiyat kaisi hai?``...she replies ``what do you mean? what will happen to my health?...what do you think I am? a sickly person..always falling ill?``....instead of judging the correct intent of the question. I see the same tone in Romair`s #40 and Urstruly #43...a wise person knows when to diffrentiate an enemy from a friend...If my proposal sounds like threatening the existence of Pakistan..so does it of present day India...when I say SouthAsian means Indian...I mean Indian in concept...if you read and percive my posting...you can realize...that there is a difference between the geographical and political India that exists today and the India that has existed and has been percieved for centuries. You are as much a part of that India that I am or is every other Hindustani (just to make it clearer for your colored understanding), pakistani, bangladeshi or Nepali etc....

Romair and Urstruly...it is very evident that you HATE the word INDIA...and if we need to discuss reasonably, we need to get such emotions out of our minds...

Urstruly #43

``if you keep harping on your 6000 years...``

usually that means that I have been repeating that sentence or idea for some time...did I?

moreover...the 6000 years of legacy is not just mine...it is yours as well...you are as much an heir to it as I am...and I wish to share it with every heir.....

Utopia is state where the visionaries want to take this world to and defatists make it into...an unachievable dream!

Perhaps my communication is not clear enough...I am calling for a united country not out of the blues but out of previous expereience of more than 6000 years...if you HATE the name India..call it idealstan or zannat or swarg or anything...name is not imprtant! it is the concept...

``only thing we have is common history``...only? only? it is history that makes the present and leads to the future..while mistakes form a discontinuum between the past, present and future...I`ll let you in on a secret...a human mind and body is made up of 99% out of the past...and 99% of its actions are detrmined by past events...so do not underrate past. You know we (and I mean we as in you , me and all of us) had our glorious days...we had it in 300 BC, 6th century and again in 16th century....but that was when we did not hate each other...and belive me it takes nothing to make hatred into love and viceversa...they are just fabrications of our emotions...if we let our reason take an upper hand...we can see the sense in what I said...imagine...a consolidated punjab! all the hectares of green land and hardworking enterprsing people of the land...are wasting less of their energy in hating their neighbors, not utilizing the 2.5% and 3.7% of the GDP on arms against each other, the IT industry, teh sports goods industry...and so much more...think! my friends think!

as for the subjugation that you talk of Urs truly...where and and when was that?...inspite of 10 odd centuries of rule by Islamic kings, only 20% of the population was converted into their religion...and not all out of threat and coercion...so where do you see subjugation? With a few exceptions, most of the rulers in the kingdom had been fair....of course...not everything was as rosy as one would imagine..and that is because life is not always rosy...yet never was there a rule of subjugation ...not possible my friend..and you know why? - our culture...call it Indian or South Asia...or whatver, is not one that goes for subjugation, force, coercion, voilence or conflict..

Urstruly #43

``Why should I get rid of my religion, my history, and my ideals to do business with you.``

``And why should I even trust you when you have no respect for my ideals that you mock as ``message of god``...

I request you to read what you write once again and edit it if you want to rethink...I never asked you to change your religion...what makes you say we are of different religions?

I NEVER mocked the ``message of god`` nor the ``brainwaves that take birth in an enlightened soul``...if you see mockery in that...there is something pricking your conscience or more importantly your faith and belief in the ``message of God`` is wavering...thats why you hear laughters of mockery from everywhere. And there is nothing, my friend, worse than wavering of faith and belief! if you believe in something..be proud of it, be strong in it...but don`t be blind in it. My contention was that an enlightened soul by itself cannot replace the contribution of a million wise minds souls prior to it...nor does it attempt to replace it! It acts to strengthen that wisdom...my friend...it attempts to reinforce it...the greatness of each prophet who has descended on this earth is not that he/she said what has never been said before...their greatness is that they said the best of the millions of wise minds in one tone in one mind and in a voice that culd be heard by millions of other bodies that never paid attention before

....Multiculturalism has always existed...in places where hatred did not overtake the minds of people...it existed in your own land for so many millenia my friend! why can`t it exist now?....

but if you feel that great ideas are not possible, great deeds are no longer possible, great feats are no longer possible and great eras are no longer possible- you are not giving too much hope to your offsprings are you?...you are not being to encouraging to your successors are you?

Romair #40

once again...please don`t hate the word India so much...it has existed long before pakistan existed or ``hindustan`` existed...it has existed all along in every mind and was a property of your grandfather...is the property of you father and if you stop hating that word so much could be your propoerty as well...coz you are an heir to it...as much as I am or Kaval Rekhi is or Vinod Khosla is or Imran Khan.

For your information, teh word India was coined by greks or perhaps romans for the people who lved by teh river Indus (actuallyu Indus is what they called the river Sindhu..from which also comes the word Sindh, the word Hindu...in fact the latin world still calls the Indians ``Hindus``...even if they were muslims or sikhs or Parsis...for the last 56 years they included a word pakistani..but not many of them...coz not all latins (as the rest of this world) have a great geographical or political awareness...yet does it mean that everyone who was called Hindu is a kafir?!...nah! many of them belived in Allah, others belived in Buddha and many others in the pantheon of vedic gods...

so my friend...India actually derives from the river that flows in ``your`` land(though I believe it to be mine as well)...so don`t hate it!

Re Romair # 40

If at all, you need TIE much more than they need you. Sure they could use that 100 buck annual fee you cough up but they might get by somehow if you manage to quit. Just barely though.

Or perhaps you should take your buddy Ali1`s comments/advice to heart and quit it and go to another group. Come to think of it, isn`t Osama Bin Laden a VC as well?

Re: Romair

Since you will continue to conveniently ignore it, I will repost upman`s post below. If you have some dignity, respond to it. Where, my dear man, do you see a Pakistani in that long list of people who have founded and managed TiE? Stop deluding yourself...if you must, stick to grandiose visions of PAF.

{{{..the people who formed and then formally found TiE-

A. J.Patel Kailash Joshi Roy Prasad

Narpat Bhandari Bipin Shah Ray Vrudhula

Sam Satya Suhas Patil Kanwal Rekhi

Current management and Board:

Director Vinod Dham

President and Director Kailash Joshi Director Lata Krishnan Director A. J. Patel Director Bipin Shah Secretary Raj Judge Assistant Secretary Anup Tik

TiE Executive Committee President Kailash Joshi Chair, Finance & Administration Ramesh Yadav Chair, Marketing and Public Relations Samir Master Chair, Charter Members Nitin Mehta Chair, Members Sridar Iyengar Chair, Monthly Events Ajit Deora Chair, Special Events Parveen Gupta Chair, Sponsorship Devendra Verma Chair, Globalization Prithipal Singh Chair, Social Entrepreneurship Abhay Bhushan Chair, Systems Roy Prasad Chair, Asset Development Sanjeev Chitre

....count the Pakistanis here- not even one in ten......it started as IndUS i.e. Indian-US...now in its inclusivist mode, it talks about taking people from the ``Indus region``...K. Rekhi faced some opposition on deciding to open the Karachi branch.....}}}}

Response to #32

Zafar Al-Talib writes:

``One of the reasons the IT industry in India has been so successful to date is that the Government of India has been largely unable to control it. While almost entirely due to ignorance on GOI`s part, this has been extremely fortunate for the Indian IT industry and for the country as a whole.``

I don`t know what you mean. The GoI has been working very closely with the IT honchos. Recall that when Dewang Mehta recently died in Australia he was part of a group headed by the IT Minister Pramod Mahajan.

As an aside, the idea for TiE itself was conceived when a bunch of succesful Indian entrepreneurs showed up at a meeting scheduled for a GoI representative (Vithal, I think, who was the Secretary of the Electronics wing). His plane was delayed, the story goes, and you can read the rest of the purana on the TiE webpage.

Why don`t you read up a little? That way it will be much harder for you to make a fool of yourself in a public forum.

tantralogician

re: egalitarian_brahmin # 34

Come on, man...give credit where it is due. The underlying self-interest of Chowk founders/management takes nothing away from their stupendous achievement in bringing Indians and Pakistanis together. They deserve our gratitude not cynicism.

And please dont blame everything on ``THEIR (Pakistanis`) inherent attitude.`` Other than massaging one`s flaccid ego, these one-sided assertions defy belief and are offensive in the extreme.

Response to #27

Farzana Versey wrote:

``I am not a techie, but I did attend a talk some time ago where Kanwal Rekhi,the moving force behind TIE, was the chief guest. Since it was open house, there were professionals, students... and he was being applauded everytime he berated India. I thought the attitude was disgusting.

He has made it big and he has given a lot of money to the IIT, but there was a patronising tone adopted, and this is endemic to all those who have done well overseas. Instead of making us (and by us I mean...``

It is a common misconception that Rekhi is a founder of TiE. He is not. He came in later and threw his (not inconsiderable) weight around once he was appointed President, a position he served in for about 3 years.

Farzana is very right in her estimation of Rekhi (and quite a few other TiEcoons). Rekhi, in particular, is the worst of the lot - the know-it-all loudmouth who thinks he has the mantra to everything. I once asked him (via email) whether his brand of `wisdom` came as an add-on package with the power steering of his Merc.

tantralogician

this is one of the stupidest discussions I`ve seen here (and thats saying a lot)

who cares if there were Paki founders on not fact is most Indians want to work with Pakistani`s (and vice-versa) if there is half a chance to make a few bucks.

why complicate the issue? get your asses off your couches and lets make some money......!!!

Shashi # 16

Your utopia of ``coalascing`` economies will never take form if you keep harping on your 6000 years of ``same legacy of culture, history, philosophy and knowledge``; unless you accept the fact that there is more or less 14 centuries of disconnect between those 6000 years and now. I dont think that we have a common heritage or a common ideal either. The only thing that we have common is a common history. We are two completely different people who happen to share a piece of land. I dont think there is anything for us to be proud of that belongs to the history prior to these 14 centuries. The only thing we can relate to that period is the pain and suffering of subjugation in the name of religion, the untouchability and inequality that is even prevalent and grownig today, the ignorance, the hate towards one`e fellow human being, and the darkness.

Now dont take me wrong that I am trying to widen the divide-but one MUST acknowledge the existence of multiculturalism before he even think about the coalescing the economy. The acceptance of multiculturalism and the acceptance of multi-ethnicity and not their suppression, is the only way. Why do I have to get rid of my religion, my history, and my ideals to do business with you. And why should I even trust you when you have no respect for my ideals that you mock as ``message from God``, ``Brain waves``, ``enlightenment``. And why should you expect respect of your ideals, whatever they are, when you can`t give respect to mine.

Please get away from the business of ``coalescing`` a common heritage by changing the history, which is not only impossible but also self beguiling, and direct your strengths on ``coalescing`` a future- a future where we see and accept our historical and idealistic differences with respect and tolerence.

ReP#22 Upman 7626

I hope that this answers your question to what the bottom line should be:

From The Times of India today:

Let`s Talk Kashmir
Visas & Scholarships are a Distraction

By AYESHA HAROON

WHAT a roller-coaster ride Pakistan-India relations have been on in the last few years - almost as if the operator had gone beserk with the controls. From the heady Lahore yatra to the blood-soaked tracts of Kargil to the euphoria preceding the Agra summit...and all this while the sound of bullets in Kashmir refuses to fade away. There was and can be no way that Islamabad or New Delhi can dodge the Kashmir issue.

What made New Delhi realise that talks are needed to improve Pak-India relations is anybody`s guess. Speculation in Islamabad`s drawing rooms ranged from it being the need of the time to the changing global patterns of international relations. But there was a near consensus on one theory: That the Americans had played an important part in forcing New Delhi`s hand. Indeed, in private, American diplomats were quick to take credit for it, albeit calling themselves facilitators rather than mediators. The Indian diplomatic corps, however, wanted to dub it a desi idea while the Pakistanis said they had been expecting this invitation for some time now. All of which still leaves the questions why and why now, not completely answered.

That said, the summit can yield a lot of positive economic gains flowing from a peace dividend. For one, we, and this is not just Pakistan and India but all the countries of the subcontinent, need to optimise our resources for the well-being of our people. If India keeps its defence budget high whether because of Pakistan or Kashmir - even if it insists on calling Kashmir its internal issue - it forces all of its neighbours to increase the throttle on the defence pedal.

Indo-Pakistan relations are not the only ones to be soured by the untenable increase in military expenses. There have been skirmishes on the Bangladesh-India border lately, the Tamil conundrum in Sri Lanka is fuelled by an arms inflow, and the recent riots in Nepal have led to speculation about India`s role in its internal politics. While New Delhi might say that all these developments in India`s immediate neighbourhood cannot directly be ascribed to its heightened military expenses, there is nevertheless a linkage between the security vulnerabilities of these countries and an arms build-up by India.

In a more Pak-India context, the boundaries drawn at the time of Partition were unnatural to the extent that they cut the traditional trade routes, disrupting badly the established areas of specialisation. For instance, the jute mills were in West Bengal while jute was grown in East Bengal, and so on. So there are indeed very specific trade gains that regions are set to make if relations between India and Pakistan normalise.

Trade economists believe that a lot of transnational advantages can also be reaped provided political disputes are resolved amicably. ``Nepal has a lot of hydroelectricity potential but it neither has the money to build the dams nor the need for the excess electricity. If say Pakistan and India finance such projects and pay a royalty to Nepal for the use of cheap electricity, all three countries stand to benefit immensely. Similar is the case with the Iran-India gas pipeline that has to go through Pakistan,`` says an economist.

But if India thinks that by telling Teheran to deal with Islamabad on the gas pipeline issue so it can get its way without talking to Pakistan, it is living in cloud cuckoo land. The regional settlement of issues cannot be substituted by such clever moves. Talking of regional settlement of bilateral issues, one hopes that the reasons for SAARC`s ineffectiveness also come up for discussion at the summit. Its efficacy has been reduced due to one of the clauses that says that no bilateral issue will be brought onto its agenda. Kashmir might be a bilateral issue between Pakistan and India, but the consequent arms build-up is a regional issue.

Today, international bodies are dictating the agenda on issues that are of vital import for our socio-economic well-being. We need to have a much more effective lobby for ourselves. Unless this region starts voting as a bloc, its votes will not carry weight in international forums. If we undermine India in these forums or vice versa, then we both lose. Pakistan has won an official international emerging markets conference to be held in Lahore in November this year, not the least because India threw its weight behind Pakistan`s case.

And yet despite all these positives, the euphoria surrounding the summit makes one jittery. Is it cynicism or a justified feeling of distrust? The Kashmir issue has been outstanding since 1947; three wars, lives lost, rapes, humiliation and terror stalking the Valley - can this all be resolved and absolved through one meeting? The summit is a good step but no more than a step.

Interestingly, the diplomatic community in Islamabad is keen to rationalise the euphoria and cautions against the build-up of expectations. All very well. But the thing is that after the hype surrounding Kargil and the blood-soaked, frenzied reports, the many Bollywood blockbusters playing on these moods, it is not easy to mould and manipulate public sentiments. It can only be done through another euphoric media build-up. The entire notion of euphoria is bad. The summit is nothing but a venue of talks and discussions and it is not as if the two countries have not talked before; or for that matter, not talked of Kashmir being the core issue.

India has made some conciliatory gestures but these are but gestures. The release of maritime prisoners, offers of scholarships and so on are gestures that actually have no relevance to the essential issues dogging Pak-India relations, and certainly have no connection with the Kashmir issue. These are meant for a larger international audience. Pakistan will come off looking too rigid in its stance if it also does not make similar irrelevant gestures. Pakistan`s constraint is that it is not as economically sound as India and, therefore, might appear too willing to talk on all issues. But that does not mean that everything is up for grabs. At the end of the day, in principle, we believe that Kashmiris should get the right to self-determination. Therefore, it is important that the party central to the dispute - the Kashmiris - are included in the talks.

(The author is resident editor, The Nation, Lahore

I fully support those people (doesnt matter if they are Indian, Pakistani, Martians, or the ones living on the lillypads) who want to change the future positively. This objective cannot be achieved unless we forcefully resist the people who are on the impossible task of changing the past (history). The later ones are only deceiving themselves and they are the one who are responsible for the misery of over a Billion souls in the sub-continent.

I am not familiar with the work of TiE therefore I cannot be specific-but my best wishes are with them if they belong to the former catagory- More power to them..

Shashi #16: ``Correction TIE is The IndUS Entrepreneurs...it does not stand for Indus the river...``

I don`t think the founders of TiE agree with you. Infact the TiE website goes out of its way to mention the word Indus again and again:

``Indus Immigrants in America

The immigration from the Indus region (my note: why not just say India, why use the word India. Infact, why not just call the organization The Indian Entrepreneur, if that was the intention) into America has been of a different quality and character from any that preceded it. By and large, early immigrants were unskilled workers and laborers looking for economic opportunity, which they typically found in the manufacturing centers of the east coast and the mid-west. Working the age-old American dream, these immigrants typically took two to three generations to work up the economic and social ladder.`` (http://www.tie.org/imm.html)

Your post is self-contradictory, and in a nutshell describes why very few, if any Pakistanis, would agree with it.

You state, ``have heard of the consolidation pahses going on everywhere? You know why they are going on?..because if two entities coalasce into one the economies of scale kicks in, the new entity is larger has more clout, more power in the market..sometimes less overheads (one administration as against two!)``

Then you state, ``Lets get real...South Asian means indian``

In essence, you want a consolidated India, but only at your own terms. That is exactly the reason Pakistan needed to be created. Because there was a fear that the majority would attempt to justify a united South Asia, but only on the terms of the majority.

All I can say is that TiE has so far survived as one joint organization, because people with your ideals have not taken it over (like they have done in many other South Asian organizations). I hope that day never comes.

You have attempted to use consolidation in business as an example. Actually, the only companies which consolidate on the lines you have mentioned are the results of hostile takeovers, not friendly mergers. Similarly, there are infact very few countries (the US is the only one I can think of) which have survived as a consolidated union. That is because the US govts. carried out one of the most severe hostile takeovers in history involving the lives and lands of native Indian and Spanish-Mexican population. All other forced geographic unions, like USSR, Europe (which is happy with the EU, but will probably never become one geographic country) etc. have not worked, primarily because people with similar views to yours end up running the show.

Your post is exactly the reason why Pakistan needed to be and needs to be a separate country. It really has nothing to do with religion. But it has a lot to do with the fact that Muslims in India would be exploited if people with your views took over India. Perhaps that phase has already started with the BJP running the show. I hope the BJP doesn`t take over TiE, as well. If it does, then there will definitely be an immigration of Pakistanis, Bangladeshis etc. out of TiE. Just like there was an immigration out of India. I will be the first to give up my membership, if that happens.

Hamid Gul #31 Are you the well known General Hamid Gul?

sattar2 #144 If a rational observer reviews this latest interaction we have had, I think that person will agree that I have tried to base my discussion with you on a reasonable understanding of the Quran and on common sense. Try to review the interaction objectively, and see if the same can be said for your posts. Since we dont have unlimited time to spend on chowk, I had assumed in my previous post that we could end the discussion by simply summarizing the points we agree or disagree on. You have chosen to portray even this attempt as well as merely a way for me to avoid discussion, rather than providing me the courtesy of disagreeing with you just as I was providing you the same courtesy.

It should by now be clear to you that (unlike some other people on chowk and unlike religious zealots), I will not brand you a kafir on account of your views. Your religious views are your business. However, I do think you are as much a prisoner of your ahmedi dogma as the sunni mullahs are prisoners of their dogma. You share the same ``religion`` as the detractors of your sect of lack of respect for logic and reason, lack of respect for different views, and an inability to see the line that separates matters of fact from matters of faith.

Vinod Khosla (of Kleiner Perkins, Sun Micro, IIT, and Stanford B-School fame) should be made India`s top IT bureaucrat (not that we need a bureaucrat, but seems like we have to have one).

But last I heard he is having too much fun as the god of the VC world to ever want that job.

As a lay person, I agree that what we have from the IT/electronics industry is the tip of the iceberg. Alo almost everyone will agree that peoples of Pakistan, India, Nepal, Bangladesh and Lanka, Burma and China, need somehow to form a business association that allows for free flow of information and capital. This is somewhat of pipe dream given that the size and behaviour of India makes it imperative that the smaller countries will have maintain the option of security alliances outside the region. Only India can change this paradigm.

Would I be mistaken to believe that we can leap frog knowledge but that we cannot leap frog the industrial revolution. That it just is not possible and that we are in the early stages of the industrial revolution.

Shashhi - 6000 years of the same continuous civilization? It`s romantic but not true and ofcourse it need not be, it is not necessary for the future cooperation. As a matter of fact such notions are detrimental to future cooperation.

HamidGul

If you can give me some input

Mr. Musharraf had earlier said that he will not seek IMF/WB help - Does it hold water to conclude that he was not aware of the depth of the financial problem and that during his visits to Middle east countries, he was unable to generate financial assistance. That it was these two points that accelerated the calls for seeking a negotiated settlement in Kashmir.

Is it also not true that Saudi and Gulf will seek Egyptian military assistance rather than Pakistani, and that this primarily due to the mistrust caused by the Pakistani inablity to control Taliban behaviour and to stamp out sectarian violence in Pakistan itself?

Since it is clear that the only way out of the debt is to grow the economy and that government has a track record of failure in this segment as well, that we should make utmost effort to reduce the cost of production in Pakistan and get the government out of the business of business, to restrict it`s role to active enabler and judicious regulator?

Is the promotion of the concept of Ijtehad by definition a threat to the Islamist parties and the madrassah system?

Re Scout

And that applies for cabbies as well. The new breed is insolent. And I suppose the oldies have stepped up to lincoln town cars :)

Where is that Romair fellow? Sticks his foot in his mouth, rattles his beard at Indians, and then runs off when he`s caught. Shameless...at least own up to your mistake.

For any Government of Sindh employees who might happen to read this - Chandrababu Naidu of India`s Andhra Pradesh State has done a fair amount of advertising which promotes AP`s capital Hyderabad as a ``cybercentre`` of note. With some slick, if slightly unethical, marketing you could turn this to your advantage. I`m sure that there are many non-desi CEOs out there who could only find Hyderabad on a map with somebody`s help, and if yours should be the finger turning the atlas pages...well. I`ll say no more. And good luck.

One of the reasons the IT industry in India has been so successful to date is that the Government of India has been largely unable to control it. While almost entirely due to ignorance on GOI`s part, this has been extremely fortunate for the Indian IT industry and for the country as a whole.

TIE looks like it will develope business and human ties between India and Pakistan which largely circumvent the doubtlessly well intentioned and pure hearted Governments of both countries. As a consequence I expect TIE to (continue to?) be a huge success, and to have a really positive impact on relations between the two countries and the lives of their people.

Not dissimilar, though on a different scale, to what CHOWK does for direct people to people exchange of views across the subcontinent. We`re hard to police into ``approved party line`` as well.

Good for you TIE, and who cares who started it?

(Before you ask RSaxena, I`m Indian.)

Indian policy-makers are wily and cunning. Americans on the other hand are too demanding and overbearing. They are unlikely to evolve a smooth modus vivendi a la Pakistan. The new relationship would be in sharp contrast both to India`s self-image and America`s domineering impulse. Jewish lobbies, keen to promote this relationship, can nurture it only to a limit.

India for all its size and aura cannot give to the US the strategic advantage that Pakistan can offer by its proximity to the Gulf. India is more attractive for corporate America. A beleaguered Pakistan has felt relief in the evolving scenario. China, however, cannot help her much in breaking the massive debt trap. The leadership in Pakistan does not seem to be able to muster enough courage to court default on loan servicing. Fortunately, China has a good understanding of Pakistan`s difficulties and will not push her to take a position at this stage.

Pervez Musharraf and a few of his colleagues are a bold lot but their civilian team comprises either outright American camp-followers or insipid weaklings who cannot provide strength to their leader in a tough situation. Will the President revamp his team to make his Look East policy work - that remains a question. For the ruling elite is deeply bonded to the West.

Moreover, a sharp increase in unemployment and rising inflation have alienated the masses from Musharraf`s policies. The growing chasm between the people and the government could render the country vulnerable to subversive onslaughts from the quarters hostile to the change of direction. Foreign- sponsored NGOs, now enjoying a privileged position with the government, would be more of a liability than an asset in a crunch. Pakistan, already facing invisible war, can ill-afford large-scale restiveness in the society at this time.

The paradoxes inherent in the paradigm shift are all too obvious in both India and Pakistan.

A small clarification to some Indians.

A delegation was sent from Bangalore to US for promoting. They want to be in that aggressive mode to counter the competition from other cities like Hyderabad, Chennai, mumbai and delhi. so the author is not wrong over there.

cheers,

Shashi [Post # 16]

Very nice and well put perspective with a different spin! I liked the spirit behind the post.

Both you and Romair have addressed two different aspects, so both views hold weight on their end.

Take Care.

Syed Ahmed #23 ``the CEO of Ethan Allen ( I forget his name..)``

Farooq Kathiwari. And you are right: those who are accomplish things are not the ones who engage in conflicts (on chowk or outside) over religions and nationalities.

Syed Ahmed #23, `` Although much to my

chagrin I have found the recent waves of second and third teir H-1B

immigrants - ( some with extremely arrogant attitudes and a

limited skill set) are more of a blotch on the unblemished record of

earlier generation of seasoned Indian and Pakistani

professionals...``

Same goes for physicians these days.

Ras:

I am not a techie, but I did attend a talk some time ago where Kanwal Rekhi,the moving force behind TIE, was the chief guest. Since it was open house, there were professionals, students (oh, it was not unusual to be approached during the break and asked by some eager-beaver, ``Are you a VC``. I would reply in a deadpan manner, ``Nope, an angel!``...I had just discovered these terms), and he was being applauded everytime he berated India. I thought the attitude was disgusting.

He has made it big and he has given a lot of money to the IIT, but there was a patronising tone adopted, and this is endemic to all those who have done well overseas. Instead of making us (and by us I mean those who are the shining hopes in a country and must remain there)see hope, the message conveyed was that India was a hell-hole. The fact that the kids in the audience were yippeeing to that made the whole exercise in `the future that is ours` seem futile.

I suppose this is a digression, but thought I would share it.

Regards,

Farzana

Re:Reply #: 23

Syed Ahmed,

Thanks for a good and objective post. I for one believe that much can be gained by a colloboration between our 2 countries in this area. Though i am proud of the achievements of Indians in IT, i believe much remains to be done. We should be having Silcon valleys in Delhi, Bombay, Karachi etc. There should be free exchange of IT professionals between India and Pakistan. In this regard, when Pakistan is looking to substantially increase the number of top quality IT professionals, a teaching institute like NIIT can help and should be allowed to open branches in Pakistan. This is not a India Vs Pakistan cricket match where only one side has to win. Both sides can reap rich harvest as the pie is big.

sridhar

ROmair:

You are deluding yourself. It is IndUS, not Indus.

NEVER do these two things:

- if you are an entrepreneur, never send your proposal to a VC from that side.

- if you are looking for a job, never send your resume to a hiring manager from that side.

The first one is specially dangerous. Not only will you be rejected, you will find other doors that otherwise might have been open, slammed shut in your face. Go to the websites of companies with Pakistani founders/co-founders and see who the investors are and you `ll agree with what I am saying.

Sirji, yeh aapki jaan, maal, mulk, mazhab, aulaad aur izzat ke dushman hain. IT/non-IT, US/non-US does not make a cent worth of difference.

I believe TIE was started by Kunwar Rekhi ( of Novell fame) along with Suhas Patil of Cirrus Logic as organization for networking and realising opportunities for budding Indian entreprenuers in Silicon Valley.

Upward mobility was difficult for Asians in SIlicon Valley (encumbered by the glass ceiling) in the 70`s and 80`s and entreprunial avenues circumvented those traditional rigid corporate hierarchies...- SO TIE was brought together to pool resources together to facilitatte a fertile environment to capitalize on venture support...

Unlike the majority of Indian and Pakistani posters whose louds words and almost minisule personal accomplishments reverberate the chowk...
- Rekhi and Patil are seasoned investors and businessman ( i believe both run startup incubators) were open to partcipation from all groups including Pakistanis ...- There were several Pakistani keynote Speakers in years past - Such As Dr. Malik ( Healthnet??? ), Safi Quresihi ( formerly of AST) etc etc ..., the CEO of Ethan Allen ( I forget his name..)

And their efforts have borne fruit -primarily because its run on not some notion of altruism or patriotism but on tangle incentivization and resultant ROI....the majority of participants tend to be Indian....

This is not to state that Pakistanis are not present in the high tech area... - There have been ( or currently are ) several Pakistanis in executive management positions at SUN, ORACLE, IBM, MOTOROLA and TI ( to name a few)and a substantial number of startups ...

BTW - confidence does not necessarily correlate either into successs or know how - and a substantial number of overconfident and under-experienced entreprenuers are bound to fail....

Generally speaking people in the Valley have done extremely well... - if not through stocks then through rising real estate prices.... - in prior years there wee as many as 22,000 millionaries being minted very year ( Source Business Week)
and that is no exaggeration... almost anyone who came to the valley in the late 80`s or the early 90`s in the electronics should atleast be a millionaire if not more ....

Suprisingly I have worked for Indians, worked with Indians and currently manage several Indians... - I have rarely found the Indo-Pak mumbo jumbo to be an issue... Although much to my chagrin I have found the recent waves of second and third teir H-1B immigrants - ( some with extremely arrogant attitudes and a limited skill set) are more of a blotch on the unblemished record of earlier generation of seasoned Indian and Pakistani professionals... -( ALthough as a side note I must mention that the recent crop of North Indians much like many of their Pakistani counterparts are big on BS and little on substance - the SOuth Indians in general are more humble, succesful and consistent- they deliver and consequently move up....)


Incidentally I see people interchanging IT with the Technology sector - IT forms a portion ofthe Technology sector and is primarily geared on the operations and application side of things such as 4th generation languages and Databases... Core technology development is still retained in the good old US.....( although immigrants are substantial contributors to it)

While it is good to parrot onces accomplishments... the US$10B IT work being farmed overseas is mostly the labor intensive low end part of the Technology sector...- and hence the substantial labor cost savings for US organizations....

At the same time if you look at the development of East Asia ... particularly Taiwan and now mainland China - their proportion of high Tech GDP is just exploding... TSMC and UMC of Taiwan now control 40-60% of the world foundry business with Singapore close behind .... TSMC alone has revenues of over U$10Billion - the total agrregrate in East Asia is closer to US$100B or more .. and with investment and growth rates in China exceeding 9% even in a recessionary world climate - it is just amazing...

Also a note in the Technology area - the Taiwanese have exceeded the Japanese dominance in
high Tech manufacturing - even Japanes giant NEC is forced to collaborate with the Taiwanese even in Bleeding edge Technologies with only IBM slightly ahead of them.....

That gentlemen is something to aspire for ....

the current downturn is just a temporary phase.. with the eviction of the dot com`s with substantial hype and no tangible value... Its partly cyclic when forecasted capacity and expenditures far outpace actual groth creating excess capacity - the Electronics revolution is yet to come we have just touched the tip of the iceberg.......

ROmair #2,

Its not good to generalise, but then the Pakistanis I worked with in the Middle east mostly suffered from what I would crudely call ``G---d mein dum nahin, Hum kisi se kam nahin`` syndrome.

Your comment on the no need for Pakistan to be invited to TIE really does fall in the same category. Instead of hoping for a better relationship with India and being thankful to be a part of such an organization, you are displaying crass arrogance.

N.B: I aplogise for the crudenes of the comment already.

Adios

Mr.Siddiqui,

I`m sorry to spoil the spirit of your article, but I had to ask this - isnt it detrimental to the pakistani stand on Kashmir for its entrepreuners to associate with what is essentially an Indian organization....the wisdom of which is so obvious to Musharraf that he is continously trimming down his delegation to Agra- even the trade and commerce ministers are out- so that only Kashmir is talked about..

..isnt it possible that talking about IT with Indians (in US or India), or any other people-to-people interaction will dilute the focus, and emotion, from that core issue?...isnt it sort of betrayal of the Kashmiris to talk business when in that freedom struggle, Indians are butchering Kashmiris by the thousands everyday?

...its perfectly reasonable to assume that some of the money being made by most of TiErs goes to the Indian govt. thus financing that massacre..

..at the least, you could have put in some sort of disclaimer in the end, like you had done on your review of Earth...

..so what if pk needs new business opportunities much more than india, its in the interest of that supreme Kashmir principle that Musharraf is preparing to botch up all Indian business and other proposals at Agra... Pakistan should not let trivia distract or confuse her from the Core issue...

``..and Vivek Kulkarni who was promoting Banglore as an IT attraction.``

..is this some new place or are we talking about the same one?

Romair # 2:

``TiE has not welcomed Pakistanis. It didn`t need to. It was a joint South Asian organization from the get-go.``

..the people who formed and then formally found TiE-

A. J.Patel Kailash Joshi Roy Prasad

Narpat Bhandari Bipin Shah Ray Vrudhula

Sam Satya Suhas Patil Kanwal Rekhi

Current management and Board:

Director Vinod Dham

President and Director Kailash Joshi Director Lata Krishnan Director A. J. Patel Director Bipin Shah Secretary Raj Judge Assistant Secretary Anup Tik





TiE Executive Committee President Kailash Joshi Chair, Finance & Administration Ramesh Yadav Chair, Marketing and Public Relations Samir Master Chair, Charter Members Nitin Mehta Chair, Members Sridar Iyengar Chair, Monthly Events Ajit Deora Chair, Special Events Parveen Gupta Chair, Sponsorship Devendra Verma Chair, Globalization Prithipal Singh Chair, Social Entrepreneurship Abhay Bhushan Chair, Systems Roy Prasad Chair, Asset Development Sanjeev Chitre

....count the Pakistanis here- not even one in ten......it started as IndUS i.e. Indian-US...now in its inclusivist mode, it talks about taking people from the ``Indus region``...K. Rekhi faced some opposition on deciding to open the Karachi branch.....

``...why are non-US based or non-IT based Indians so possessive of Indians` success in the US IT industry..``

...if a PAF trainer`s book on PAF`s (hardly acknowledged) `superior` air skills can elicit so much crowing across the board from Pakistanis- the Indian IT sector`s performance, which has been raved upon by TWSJ to Fortune, is definitely something Indians can be proud of..its bit unfair to fault indians for this when even pakistani opinion makers are singing about the `bangalore model` and Indian IT...

..btw till recently on Chowk, Indian IT was all about `code coolies` and assembly-line produced mediocre engineers...its nice to notice the change...

note to ylh & sarwari-

..get the drift of my post regarding pakistanis using desi/ south asian more than indians....desi- the new ideology?

Re Brat

Got me there. I`ll agree--but I was referring to professional organizations--ones tied to commerce and industry

Rdesikan #11

Chowk IMHO answers your question about such an organization.
Brat

Rdesikan #11

Chowk IMHO answers your question about such an organization.
Brat

http://www.economictimes.com/today/12tech17.htmNEW DELHI

THE Indian IT industry has crossed the $10 billion-mark for the first time during 2000-01, according to a survey.

The software segment, which constituted 66 per cent of entire the IT industry, played a major role in achieving this growth, the survey conducted by the Computers Today magazine showed.

Of this, the 12 big companies in the magazine`s listing of 101 companies clocked Rs 12,014 crore, nearly 45 per cent of the total industry turnover with software services exports accounting for a major chunk of this high turnover.

About 30 software companies exported over Rs 200 crore each worth of software and services during 2000-01. The total software exports was Rs 24,720 crore recording a 62 per cent rise over the previous year, an NIIT release said on Wednesday.

The top software exports included TCS, Infosys, Wipro, Satyam and HCL, the magazine said in the `Annual round up of IT industry` in its latest issue.

The domestic software posted a 86 per cent growth at Rs 6,560 crore while hardware went up 58 per cent at Rs 11,250 crore during the year ended March 31, 2001.

NIIT, TCS and Sonata were among the top domestic software companies.

The computer training industry recorded a 45 per cent rise at Rs 2,150 crore with NIIT recorded at Rs 692 crore.

The infotech industry registered revenues of Rs 47,270 crore, an increase of 60 per cent over Rs 29,513 crore last year. (PTI)

ref: #2 Romair

Correction TIE is The IndUS Entrepreneurs...it does not stand for Indus the river...

Lets get real...South Asian means indian...Indian not as the country as it exists today but India as it has been percieved for millenia- the civilization that stand about the Indus river...today you may call it a sub-continent...but that is one of the biggest tragedies in History! It makes more sense as a single country! (and that would mean that every resident of the geogrpahical ``sub-continent`` is a part of that country after all they share the same legacy of culture, history, philosophy and knowledge)

since we are talking of the corprate world here...have heard of the consolidation pahses going on everywhere? You know why they are going on?..because if two entities coalasce into one the economies of scale kicks in, the new entity is larger has more clout, more power in the market..sometimes less overheads (one administration as against two!)

There is nothing called south Asian...this word was created to fend of any serious contenders to the white hegemony- a united India ...but then so was the creation of Pakistan!...it is only us brown fools that are tricked into religious frenzies and fanaticisms and play into the designs of the white minds! why else would we deny oursleves of our past, culture, knowldege and the collective unconscious? whats does religion come to us with anyway?..a few brainwaves from the enlightened, a ``message from the god`` through the revered seer and a lot of manipulations and misinterpretatons from those who want to inherit the seer`s ``enlightenment``...and what are these ``mesages from god`` anayway...the same old oft repeated truths packaged into a new form...is it more impirtant than our centuries old heritage, the knowldedge and wisdom collected by thousands of ancestors?...

Conclusion:

Let us refer to TIE as the forum of entrepreneurs from Real India...not just the fragment from the east or west...let us be proud of the achievements of the people from all corners of this landmass (that the whites now call the ``sub-continent``) as our own, coz we belong to one culture, one civilization that has lived through the stroms of time for more than 6000 years or perhaps more.

So why are less hindus in Pakistan than muslims in India.

I`ve been visiting India very frequently on business for the last couple of years. It is amazing to see the confidence exhibited by 20 somethings in not only the tech arena but in the general business. Almost everyone thought globally and were hardly intimidated by anything.

Contrast this to a decade ago when a graduate`s ambition was a secure job either in the government or a nationalized bank!

Very few have time for politics (except the sordid Tehelka expose kind to keep themselves amused).

I hope that Pakistan`s initiatives in the IT arena will lead to similar results. We in the sub-continent have sacrificed enough of our future for our parents` follies.

Response to #2:

Romair wrote:

``TiE has not welcomed Pakistanis. It didn`t need to. It was a joint South Asian organization from the get-go. Hence the name Indus Entrepreneur (Indus does run through Pakistan...``

Look up the history of TiE. All the founders were

Indian. That they chose to make it inclusive is

to their credit. But take away every Paki from

TiE and it wouldn`t make the slightest dent.

tantralogician

Re:Reply #: 2

Romair,

I am not trying to be controversial here but depending on who is writing it is either Indus or IndUS enterprise. My take on this is since it was first started with a predominantly Indian presence, it was named Ind(for India)US(for USA).May be you or someone in this forum can clarify,not that it matters to me. I am glad that Pakistan is trying to make it big in IT. Due to sheer small size and numbers (and nothing to do with the caliber of its IT professionals)Pakistan cannot do it without India`s help. In this context one hopes the summit improves bilateral relations substantially so that trade in IT and other fields become a reality. My brother told me yesterday that Banglore is rated the 3rd largest IT center today. If true, Pakistan can reap rich benefits by collaboration with IT professionals from India, something that has not happened so far.

sridhar

RE Romair:

I was under the impression that the ``Indus`` in TIE was an abbreviation for India and US. Go to their website tie.org and it is called The IndUS Entrepreneurs.

You can`t deny the fact that it was started by Indians and the reason that it wasn`t restricted to Indians only has to do with all the secular crap we are brainwashed/forcefed in India and that evil brahmin/bania concept of integrating people of different religions in high schools, colleges and beyond. It is egalatarian and nondiscriminating and that is something commendable.

Now show me a professional organization started by Pakis and dominated by Pakis that welcomes others from the subcontinent that is not religious/ethnic in nature and that does not need a religious prayer/convocation to get it started--other than a taxi drivers group/union of course.

Wouldn`t you agree that this sort of economic/educative cooperation/collaboration is what the two countries should be working on--rather than harping the same warmed over bs on kashmir, etc?

Cheers

Re: Romair

Get your eyes checked, I am quoting the author directly when I say Pakistanis were welcomed by TiE: ``And to this, one is pleased to report that 2001 was the first year that Pakistan was officially represented at and welcomed by TiE.``

Surely someone felt unwelcome at this primarily Indian organization until now??

TiE is primarily an Indian organization, regardless of what the name says. It was started by Indians and has been run by Indians. Don`t kid yourself.

All of a sudden a common namesake means it refers to both India and Pakistan while in any other context such terms cause allergic reactions from the likes of you?

Your fantasies about IT in Pakistan are almost as laughable as your fantasies about the PAF.

I have a couple of links here from www.tie.org which explain the rationale behind TiE and how and when it was founded.

For the philosophical base read the FAQ.

For the when and the how

read page http://www.tie.org/hist.html

Thanks

For a moment I was almost led into believing that Pakistan is driving the TiE.

Talk about promoting Bangalore, in case Ras did not know this the days of promoting Bangalore was done about 5-8 years back. May be the delegation from Pak was trying to promote Pak sites.

Lastly the TiE was founded essentially by entreprenueurs of Indian origin and it behoves one to commend their nature in welcoming entreprenueurs from other SAsian countries.

I`ve been visiting India very frequently on business for the last couple of years. It is amazing to see the confidence exhibited by 20 somethings in not only the tech arena but in the general business. Almost everyone thought globally and were hardly intimidated by anything.

Contrast this to a decade ago when a graduate`s ambition was a secure job either in the government or a nationalized bank!

Very few have time for politics (except the sordid Tehelka expose kind to keep themselves amused).

I hope that Pakistan`s initiatives in the IT arena will lead to similar results. We in the sub-continent have sacrificed enough of our future for our parents` follies.

Although the following is not directly related to the article under discussion, but still it had some interesting statistical info. Just thought of posting it here.


An Informative Read!


Business growth wanes in Silicon Valley
By Rachel Konrad
Staff Writer, CNET News.com
July 11, 2001, 12:10 p.m. PT
It may be a scorching summer in California`s Silicon Valley, but the nation`s technology hub isn`t so hot when it comes to small-business growth, according to new research.

According to a study released Wednesday by the National Commission on Entrepreneurship (NCOE), the bulk of high-growth companies in the past decade were in Rocky Mountain and Midwest cities such as Provo, Utah, and Elkhart, Ind.

The highest-ranking major metropolitan regions for business growth were Boston, Detroit and Houston. Phoenix, Salt Lake City and Dallas were the top cities with fewer than 3 million residents. Smaller regions such as Austin, Texas; Las Vegas; Baton Rouge, La.; Albuquerque, N.M.; Elkhart; Lafayette, La.; Provo; and St. George, Utah, rounded out the list.

Although San Francisco was the No. 5 major metropolitan area for business growth, it was the only California city--large or small--to make the list of top spots. Much of the city`s job growth was tied to the rise of dot-coms in the mid- to late 1990s, before the sector imploded in spring 2000 and legions of workers were laid off.

Regional tech hubs such as Washington, D.C., Austin and Boston made the list, which ranked all 394 regional job markets tracked by the U.S. Census Bureau. But the vast majority of high-growth cities were in states such as Michigan, Indiana, Wisconsin, Utah and Louisiana--far from the headquarters of the nation`s largest technology companies.

That is because most high-growth entrepreneurial companies are not in the conventional technology industry, researchers determined. Rather, they are in sectors such as medicine, automobiles and manufacturing.

Researchers also found that fewer than one in 20 American businesses can be defined as ``high growth,`` achieving employment growth rates of at least 15 percent per year from 1992 to 1997. Only 4.7 percent of all businesses that existed in 1991 grew at least 15 percent per year or at least doubled their employment every year from 1992 until 1997.

Because news organizations and stock market analysts often fixate on high-growth companies in the technology sector, the relative paucity of such organizations in the broader economy shocked researchers.

``The New Economy is often depicted as a handful of companies in a few select cities creating significant but sometimes short-lived wealth,`` said Patrick Von Bargen, NCOE executive director. ``Our report...shows that nearly every American city contains companies that are creating jobs at an extraordinary pace, and that span a diverse range of industry sectors.``

Another surprise: San Jose, Calif.--considered the epicenter of the nation`s technology industry--received an NCOE ``growth company index`` rating of 178. That`s not bad, but it`s a far cry from the 200 rating that Provo received. In fact, the lowest score that any Utah region received was higher than any California region. Logan, Utah, received 195--the worst performer in the land-locked ``Beehive State.``

The Washington-based NCOE says its report, ``Mapping America`s Entrepreneurial Landscape,`` is the first to measure employment growth in every labor market tracked by the U.S. Census Bureau. The complete rankings and color-coded map are available at the NCOE`s Web site.

Ras Siddiqui:

Thanks for an informative read.

Take Care

Romair:

Thanks for the facts and figures. Good Post!

Take Care.

Romair:

Thanks for the facts and figures. Good Post!

Take Care.

RSexana #1: ``It`s great that TiE has welcomed Pakistanis``

TiE has not welcomed Pakistanis. It didn`t need to. It was a joint South Asian organization from the get-go. Hence the name Indus Entrepreneur (Indus does run through Pakistan, the last time I checked), and not Indian Entrepreneur. It is open to anyone from South Asia, with some of its chapters being run by Pakistanis.

The reason it seems like an Indian organization is because around 8.9 or so out of every 10 South Asian IT professionals in the US are Indian. 1 out of 10 is a Pakistani, and the remaining are from Bangladesh, Sri Lanka etc. Primarily because India is a much bigger country, and because India is still the only country that has been hit with the IT wave. Pakistan is just getting hit with this wave, so the ratios should improve soon.

In any case, TiE is probably the most powerful and influential private IT group in the world, now (people like John Chambers even refuse invitations from heads of states). It is good to see that TiE has been completely apolitical, so far. I wish their Lahore and Karachi chapters a lot of success.

P.S. Once again, I ask, why are non-US based or non-IT based Indians so possessive of Indians` success in the US IT industry, while the successful Indians in the US IT industry, themselves, are not possessive of their own success at all?

It`s great that TiE has welcomed Pakistanis but I don`t think Urstruly and his gang will support Pakistanis getting involved with the devils from across the border.

How can these wretched Pakistanis who want to get involved in bania organizations like TiE allow Kashmiris to be sacrificied?

Also, if this is OK, why are most Pakistanis hell bent against more of this type of cooperation on the Sub-Continent itself?