Follow the People to Peace

Zahra Khanoom, my apologies for the delayed response to your post - I was not in town, and was also trying to put together a plan for the video camera `venture`, if that is what it turns out to be. My designer friend is putting together the drawings and schematics for the system and I will email Mr Tariq Khan with this info. I will also email you at the yahoo address with the info (probably tomorrow as I will have some more design info then). If others on chowk are interested, then I will also post the same on this thread. Tahmed321, I know you were. After the last post, we had the killings of Mr Mirza and then Mr Joya, Mr Kanju within days of each other. A system of apprehending and of deterrance must be put in place, I feel.

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jay #200:

Let`s give them their due. I think the mohajirs and those from Indian side of Punjab did sacrifice their lands and property in India and even lives to get to Pakistan. As also ties with family back here.

Romair:

Thanks for your thoughts. I will come back to them later.

Take Care.

PS: Good to hear a perspective that said Jeeyae` Cute Army! :) I would say ditto to that naa`ra.

Sherdil:

Despite the fact that I have a lot to write, unfortunately I do not cherish the luxury of time - I WILL come back though(inshallah). In the meanwhile, I wanted to slightly change the direction of this thread.

You have been talking about using ``technology`` to improve or I should say add to our current system. I have an inkling that you are either in the civil services or in the army. Correct me if my assumption was otherwise. I am sure wherever you are and whatever you are doing, your recommendations to improve/update the current system Or create an infrastructure would be highly appreciated[if and only if there are people who care]. You may be at a level where you are the decision maker? or you may not be? The reason I am bringing this point is not to put you on the spot, but to ask you to put together a plan or your requirements and send it out to a convention that will take place in DC this coming weekend. You can check out the details of the event on ASPENA`s website. Please go to the DC Chapter link. Many times attendees who cannot attend, get their ``case study/proposal`` sent to the organizers and they can get you in touch with the right people or the right ones may contact you. It does not seem that you aren`t in touch with the right folks, but having more people to talk to and get the buy in can really attract more investors[expats]who would like to assist you in your efforts. There are a lot of expats who would go out of their way to assist Pakistan in different ways. Your proposal/business case will grab more attention as it is/will be/has to be the common concern of all the Pakistanis. In fact, Dr. Ata is going to be there as well. You should send this ``business case`` to Tariq Khan. His email address is on the website. I have not gone into a lot of intricacies here, but if you would like to discuss them off-line you are more than welcome to send me a note on Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com.

Take Care.

SIPPING SHERRY SACRIFICE,

``we all need to shape up and get sober, why can`t we all Pakistanis, that`s what we sacrificed for - we did not scrifice so that we could be these ridiculous little regional groups``

The above is a pakistani interactor. The great leader of pakistan, no doubt has to put up the horrible taste of sherry while watching the tamasha out side. Well that is a sacrifice. If that is what the leader had undergone, what did the poor of pakistan sacrifice to create pakistan, may be they sacrificed the sherry, they could not afford it.

Hollow words, borrowed from another country.

sherdil #188 If you find out anything more on this, it would be good if are able to post it here.

Zahra #190: The Commando Action option:

If by commando action, you actually mean an action, taken by the SSG (Special Services Group), better known as Commandos of the Pakistan Army, then I don`t think that is possible. The commandos are a small group within the Army, and are used for small surgical operations, which require special training.

They are an extremely impressive lot, highly patriotic, and have literally laid down their lives for their country at the drop of a hat, on many occcassions. I have spent some time with them in Peshawar. Every commando one meets seems to have scars, broken bones etc. from military and peacetime (floods, providing food to remote areas during heavy snowfalls, etc.) operations.

It is highly disappointing to see Pakistanis, on this board, who think these guys are not interested in the welfare of the Pakistani masses. These people are either misinformed or indulging in propoganda. I can safely say the Pakistani SSG, in comparioson to their critics on this board, has probably done a lot more for the welfare of Pakistanis (even during peacetime tragedies) Unfortunately, commandos do not get the press that NGOs and other organizations get for there welfare efforts.

If, by commando action, you mean any branch of the Army carrying out an operation in Karachi or other areas, then that can be done easily. It is impossible for civilian groups to take on their own Army in any country. Armies are too well-equipped, disciplined and trained, and can easily suppress civilian movements; basically by killing everyone involved.

However, I am personally against using the Army in any kind of a military action against its own civilian population. This is a dangerous path to follow, and is a lose-lose situation for the both the soldiers and the civilians. It is a slippery slope, and things can get out of hand.

No professional soldier wants to fire at his own civilian population. At the same time, motivated civilians are more than happy to fire at soldiers, whom they consider to be suppressing them. So if the soldiers are too aggressive, they will end up killing innocent civilians. If they are too cautious, civilians will kill them. Extended military operations against civilian populations result in hatred against the military (even though the operations are ordered by political leaders, at the encouragement of the civilians, like some of the contributors on Chowk). They also result in demotivation and long-term psychological problems for soldiers.

Added to the above is the fact that commando actions against civilian populations rarely, if ever, solve the long term problems. The MQM`s militancy in Karachi is now legendary. Everytime the Army has been sent in against them, it has taken them out in the short term. Yet the militancy keeps popping up its head again and again, even though the people of Karachi are opposed to this militancy (surprisingly they still seem to keep voting for MQM, however). This is a good indication that military actions against one`s own civlian groups are not the right way to go. They do not solve the long-term problem.

What needs to be done is the following:

1) Control the flow of arms in Pakistan. The military should be used for this. 2) Politically interact with these groups. 3) Beef up the police to handle small civilian disturbances. This will be a long term process, since the police is extremely corrupt and inefficient.

However, direct military actions against any group, involving physical actions against the individuals of that group by the Army, should be avoided at all costs. Any Army, unlike what many critics think, hates carrying out such operations, since the Army is left holding the bag at the end.

P.S. I belong to the group of people who think in present-day Pakistan it is alright to act outside the constitution, if the end justifies the means, i.e. the long term result is the betterment of Pakistan. I think applying textbook western legal and electoral principles to present-day Pakistan is not possible. Hence I support the current Martial Law for three years, and I also support the govt. banning sectarian parties, militant parties etc. outside the normal legal norms.

However, there are many contributors on Chowk, who feel the textbook legal procedures need to followed under all circumstances. Based on that they oppose the current Martial Law, even though everyone from the IMF to the Indian journalists has recognized that this is the best govt. Pakistan has had in thirty years. I respect the opinions of these people. However, it is interesting to note that when it comes to sectarian, and religious and militant parties in Pakistan, these people are more than happy and even encourage the govt. to use force and actions outside the boundaries of western democracies (i.e. banning sectarian parties etc.) and outside the boundaries of due process. Why such a double standard? If one supports textbook democracy, then one must support the existence of sectarian parties, and militant ethnic parties, and not support any military action against them.

Urstruly 148

I too regret the tone of my post. My Parents were Mohajirs and I was born in Karachi - Am I not a as much Sindhi as anyone else born in Sind? or must I be against the Patriotic Armed Forces of Pakistan and against the national government and against the idea of Pakistan, to be considered Sindhi - You and I and JS know that a very samll number of people support such anti-Pakistani thinking. I would urge all to remember that permissiveism is neither kind or judicious. It will lead to greater demands and the retreat of the ideology of Pakistan.

I am denying that we all need to shape up and get sober, why can`t we all Pakistanis, that`s what we sacrificed for - we did not scrifice so that we could be these ridiculous little regional groups, did we? Here in America, peoples are proud to say they live in California or anyone of 52 states, nobody accuses the federal government sucking up the tax Dollars of citizens in any one state - Are such arguments really not about what kind of tax policy we should have? How does it become a issue for a movement that threatens the hard won Pakistan and the right to be Pakistani?

Sherdil:

I will have to rewrite my thoughts as my computer died when I was ready to submit [Tears]. I will come back in a day or so.

Thanks.

Pravin:

I`m trying to get Rajans home number in Dallas. You can call his roommate there who has all details of his family back home in Lucknow. Am calling to find out this minute. Please email me at brokeneggshells@yahoo.com at the earliest.

P.S: Give him a big huggie from me.

Reply Urstruly #: 147

“Sindh confirmed its participation into the Pakistani Federation through its elected body of legislative assembly prior to the partition.”

Kashmir had no representative Government prior to its accession to India. Once a representative Government was elected for Kashmir, however, they produced a state constitution which states that Jammu and Kashmir are a part of India.

“Also the Baluchistan and NWFP had refrendums prior to the partition.”

And did they vote for Partition?

Zafar



Reply BM #334

Imran

Thank you for your response. I still do not agree with many of your views, but do appreciate your making the effort to explain them.

Specifically about the separate area on chowk for Indian Muslims, I do not support this. One of the advantages of chowk is that anybody can write an article or post, and nobody can shout them down. They can make their point. (Though, of course, so can everybody else.) This holds for Indian Muslims and their articles as well.

Zafar

PS I still think that impugning the religious motivation of other people’s ancestor’s is small hearted.

Reply Concerned #350

What next – will we have to go to Saudi and then on to London? Or is the nation cancelled with the coup, because Chappu ke bina Chappustan kya akeli se cheez ho jayegi, na?

Zafar

Ex PM Chappustan

Reply I5 #455

I am very disillusioned. First meri PMship gayee and two, Prayydent saab ne apne liye kisi highway ka naam le liya.

Aur Mr Devkant ka kya hoga? Not to mention my goats.

In mourning

Zafar Al-Talib

Ex-PM Chappustan

PS See you in Saudi. Can we fly BA to London from there? This is a secure channel, no?

Reply Sadna #449

Tell him we can also set up a Jayalalitha Insitute Of Ethical Government also !– he just has to accept LPY and Rabri.

Reply Banjaara, Ferozk

``If Pakistan has abandoned Bihari Muslims in Bangladesh,an act I personally do not approve of,India has abandoned Hindus in Pakistan and is also refusing to take them back,when Pakistan is trying to repatriate them``.

Actually India allows Pakistani Hindus to enter and remain in India if they wish to.

Reply Acheron2 #368

“If Kashmir wanted independence and India was to agree to this, Pakistan would have no problem going along with that.”

That is not the Pakistani Government’s position. Do you know what the Pakistani Government`s position is? A small effort on your part to find this out BEFORE putting up a post on the subject is a not unreasonable ask.

“Anyone who knows the geopolitical situation in Asia today knows that China will not tolerate India going to war against Pakistan at this point.”

China finds an India enmeshed in a conflict with Pakistan less of a rival in Asia. Whether China finds Pakistan important enough to go to war over is another matter. China has enough to worry about if it wants to be a developed country by 2050 – war is not on their preferred agenda. Or on India`s. Or on Pakistan`s. Regardless of what happens in Kashmir.

“Rather than a small, stable Pakistan minus the Sindh, one can imagine an India minus her Punjab/ Gujarat as a buffer zone for Pakistan.”

Even at the height of the Khalistan movement, the majority of people in Punjab were not pro-Separation from India. In Gujarat there is not even a marginal movement which desires this. In Sindh on the other hand…

But I don’t think the separation of Sindh from Pakistan is good for India, and I don’t think India would encourage this. It all boils down to what country’s want for themselves, and how they see their place in the world.