Follow the People to Peace

Zahra Khanoom, my apologies for the delayed response to your post - I was not in town, and was also trying to put together a plan for the video camera `venture`, if that is what it turns out to be. My designer friend is putting together the drawings and schematics for the system and I will email Mr Tariq Khan with this info. I will also email you at the yahoo address with the info (probably tomorrow as I will have some more design info then). If others on chowk are interested, then I will also post the same on this thread. Tahmed321, I know you were. After the last post, we had the killings of Mr Mirza and then Mr Joya, Mr Kanju within days of each other. A system of apprehending and of deterrance must be put in place, I feel.

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jay #200:

Let`s give them their due. I think the mohajirs and those from Indian side of Punjab did sacrifice their lands and property in India and even lives to get to Pakistan. As also ties with family back here.

Romair:

Thanks for your thoughts. I will come back to them later.

Take Care.

PS: Good to hear a perspective that said Jeeyae` Cute Army! :) I would say ditto to that naa`ra.

Sherdil:

Despite the fact that I have a lot to write, unfortunately I do not cherish the luxury of time - I WILL come back though(inshallah). In the meanwhile, I wanted to slightly change the direction of this thread.

You have been talking about using ``technology`` to improve or I should say add to our current system. I have an inkling that you are either in the civil services or in the army. Correct me if my assumption was otherwise. I am sure wherever you are and whatever you are doing, your recommendations to improve/update the current system Or create an infrastructure would be highly appreciated[if and only if there are people who care]. You may be at a level where you are the decision maker? or you may not be? The reason I am bringing this point is not to put you on the spot, but to ask you to put together a plan or your requirements and send it out to a convention that will take place in DC this coming weekend. You can check out the details of the event on ASPENA`s website. Please go to the DC Chapter link. Many times attendees who cannot attend, get their ``case study/proposal`` sent to the organizers and they can get you in touch with the right people or the right ones may contact you. It does not seem that you aren`t in touch with the right folks, but having more people to talk to and get the buy in can really attract more investors[expats]who would like to assist you in your efforts. There are a lot of expats who would go out of their way to assist Pakistan in different ways. Your proposal/business case will grab more attention as it is/will be/has to be the common concern of all the Pakistanis. In fact, Dr. Ata is going to be there as well. You should send this ``business case`` to Tariq Khan. His email address is on the website. I have not gone into a lot of intricacies here, but if you would like to discuss them off-line you are more than welcome to send me a note on Z_Jamshed@hotmail.com.

Take Care.

SIPPING SHERRY SACRIFICE,

``we all need to shape up and get sober, why can`t we all Pakistanis, that`s what we sacrificed for - we did not scrifice so that we could be these ridiculous little regional groups``

The above is a pakistani interactor. The great leader of pakistan, no doubt has to put up the horrible taste of sherry while watching the tamasha out side. Well that is a sacrifice. If that is what the leader had undergone, what did the poor of pakistan sacrifice to create pakistan, may be they sacrificed the sherry, they could not afford it.

Hollow words, borrowed from another country.

sherdil #188 If you find out anything more on this, it would be good if are able to post it here.

Zahra #190: The Commando Action option:

If by commando action, you actually mean an action, taken by the SSG (Special Services Group), better known as Commandos of the Pakistan Army, then I don`t think that is possible. The commandos are a small group within the Army, and are used for small surgical operations, which require special training.

They are an extremely impressive lot, highly patriotic, and have literally laid down their lives for their country at the drop of a hat, on many occcassions. I have spent some time with them in Peshawar. Every commando one meets seems to have scars, broken bones etc. from military and peacetime (floods, providing food to remote areas during heavy snowfalls, etc.) operations.

It is highly disappointing to see Pakistanis, on this board, who think these guys are not interested in the welfare of the Pakistani masses. These people are either misinformed or indulging in propoganda. I can safely say the Pakistani SSG, in comparioson to their critics on this board, has probably done a lot more for the welfare of Pakistanis (even during peacetime tragedies) Unfortunately, commandos do not get the press that NGOs and other organizations get for there welfare efforts.

If, by commando action, you mean any branch of the Army carrying out an operation in Karachi or other areas, then that can be done easily. It is impossible for civilian groups to take on their own Army in any country. Armies are too well-equipped, disciplined and trained, and can easily suppress civilian movements; basically by killing everyone involved.

However, I am personally against using the Army in any kind of a military action against its own civilian population. This is a dangerous path to follow, and is a lose-lose situation for the both the soldiers and the civilians. It is a slippery slope, and things can get out of hand.

No professional soldier wants to fire at his own civilian population. At the same time, motivated civilians are more than happy to fire at soldiers, whom they consider to be suppressing them. So if the soldiers are too aggressive, they will end up killing innocent civilians. If they are too cautious, civilians will kill them. Extended military operations against civilian populations result in hatred against the military (even though the operations are ordered by political leaders, at the encouragement of the civilians, like some of the contributors on Chowk). They also result in demotivation and long-term psychological problems for soldiers.

Added to the above is the fact that commando actions against civilian populations rarely, if ever, solve the long term problems. The MQM`s militancy in Karachi is now legendary. Everytime the Army has been sent in against them, it has taken them out in the short term. Yet the militancy keeps popping up its head again and again, even though the people of Karachi are opposed to this militancy (surprisingly they still seem to keep voting for MQM, however). This is a good indication that military actions against one`s own civlian groups are not the right way to go. They do not solve the long-term problem.

What needs to be done is the following:

1) Control the flow of arms in Pakistan. The military should be used for this. 2) Politically interact with these groups. 3) Beef up the police to handle small civilian disturbances. This will be a long term process, since the police is extremely corrupt and inefficient.

However, direct military actions against any group, involving physical actions against the individuals of that group by the Army, should be avoided at all costs. Any Army, unlike what many critics think, hates carrying out such operations, since the Army is left holding the bag at the end.

P.S. I belong to the group of people who think in present-day Pakistan it is alright to act outside the constitution, if the end justifies the means, i.e. the long term result is the betterment of Pakistan. I think applying textbook western legal and electoral principles to present-day Pakistan is not possible. Hence I support the current Martial Law for three years, and I also support the govt. banning sectarian parties, militant parties etc. outside the normal legal norms.

However, there are many contributors on Chowk, who feel the textbook legal procedures need to followed under all circumstances. Based on that they oppose the current Martial Law, even though everyone from the IMF to the Indian journalists has recognized that this is the best govt. Pakistan has had in thirty years. I respect the opinions of these people. However, it is interesting to note that when it comes to sectarian, and religious and militant parties in Pakistan, these people are more than happy and even encourage the govt. to use force and actions outside the boundaries of western democracies (i.e. banning sectarian parties etc.) and outside the boundaries of due process. Why such a double standard? If one supports textbook democracy, then one must support the existence of sectarian parties, and militant ethnic parties, and not support any military action against them.

Urstruly 148

I too regret the tone of my post. My Parents were Mohajirs and I was born in Karachi - Am I not a as much Sindhi as anyone else born in Sind? or must I be against the Patriotic Armed Forces of Pakistan and against the national government and against the idea of Pakistan, to be considered Sindhi - You and I and JS know that a very samll number of people support such anti-Pakistani thinking. I would urge all to remember that permissiveism is neither kind or judicious. It will lead to greater demands and the retreat of the ideology of Pakistan.

I am denying that we all need to shape up and get sober, why can`t we all Pakistanis, that`s what we sacrificed for - we did not scrifice so that we could be these ridiculous little regional groups, did we? Here in America, peoples are proud to say they live in California or anyone of 52 states, nobody accuses the federal government sucking up the tax Dollars of citizens in any one state - Are such arguments really not about what kind of tax policy we should have? How does it become a issue for a movement that threatens the hard won Pakistan and the right to be Pakistani?

Sherdil:

I will have to rewrite my thoughts as my computer died when I was ready to submit [Tears]. I will come back in a day or so.

Thanks.

Pravin:

I`m trying to get Rajans home number in Dallas. You can call his roommate there who has all details of his family back home in Lucknow. Am calling to find out this minute. Please email me at brokeneggshells@yahoo.com at the earliest.

P.S: Give him a big huggie from me.

Reply Urstruly #: 147

“Sindh confirmed its participation into the Pakistani Federation through its elected body of legislative assembly prior to the partition.”

Kashmir had no representative Government prior to its accession to India. Once a representative Government was elected for Kashmir, however, they produced a state constitution which states that Jammu and Kashmir are a part of India.

“Also the Baluchistan and NWFP had refrendums prior to the partition.”

And did they vote for Partition?

Zafar



Reply BM #334

Imran

Thank you for your response. I still do not agree with many of your views, but do appreciate your making the effort to explain them.

Specifically about the separate area on chowk for Indian Muslims, I do not support this. One of the advantages of chowk is that anybody can write an article or post, and nobody can shout them down. They can make their point. (Though, of course, so can everybody else.) This holds for Indian Muslims and their articles as well.

Zafar

PS I still think that impugning the religious motivation of other people’s ancestor’s is small hearted.

Reply Concerned #350

What next – will we have to go to Saudi and then on to London? Or is the nation cancelled with the coup, because Chappu ke bina Chappustan kya akeli se cheez ho jayegi, na?

Zafar

Ex PM Chappustan

Reply I5 #455

I am very disillusioned. First meri PMship gayee and two, Prayydent saab ne apne liye kisi highway ka naam le liya.

Aur Mr Devkant ka kya hoga? Not to mention my goats.

In mourning

Zafar Al-Talib

Ex-PM Chappustan

PS See you in Saudi. Can we fly BA to London from there? This is a secure channel, no?

Reply Sadna #449

Tell him we can also set up a Jayalalitha Insitute Of Ethical Government also !– he just has to accept LPY and Rabri.

Reply Banjaara, Ferozk

``If Pakistan has abandoned Bihari Muslims in Bangladesh,an act I personally do not approve of,India has abandoned Hindus in Pakistan and is also refusing to take them back,when Pakistan is trying to repatriate them``.

Actually India allows Pakistani Hindus to enter and remain in India if they wish to.

Reply Acheron2 #368

“If Kashmir wanted independence and India was to agree to this, Pakistan would have no problem going along with that.”

That is not the Pakistani Government’s position. Do you know what the Pakistani Government`s position is? A small effort on your part to find this out BEFORE putting up a post on the subject is a not unreasonable ask.

“Anyone who knows the geopolitical situation in Asia today knows that China will not tolerate India going to war against Pakistan at this point.”

China finds an India enmeshed in a conflict with Pakistan less of a rival in Asia. Whether China finds Pakistan important enough to go to war over is another matter. China has enough to worry about if it wants to be a developed country by 2050 – war is not on their preferred agenda. Or on India`s. Or on Pakistan`s. Regardless of what happens in Kashmir.

“Rather than a small, stable Pakistan minus the Sindh, one can imagine an India minus her Punjab/ Gujarat as a buffer zone for Pakistan.”

Even at the height of the Khalistan movement, the majority of people in Punjab were not pro-Separation from India. In Gujarat there is not even a marginal movement which desires this. In Sindh on the other hand…

But I don’t think the separation of Sindh from Pakistan is good for India, and I don’t think India would encourage this. It all boils down to what country’s want for themselves, and how they see their place in the world.

tahmed321 (#192) - I think I may be able to help in the matter of low cost video cameras. I know a Pakistani engineer who was responsible for the design of these traffic cameras. He was also given the task of reducing their manufacturing cost, which he also accomplished. He managed to reduce the manufacturing cost of the weatherproof housing system from $475 per unit to $35 per unit (!) (all through an elegant scheme of simplicity of design and materials). The camera cost is in addition to this, and we know that the cost of these has been tumbling as of late. I will get in touch with him and see what can be done ...

Zahra Khanoom, I will wait for the continuation to your reply before answering. Looking forward to hear what you have to say ...

sherdil #188 I think surveillance cameras can prove effective in curbing crime. In the US, automated systems whereby surveillance cameras catch red-light jumpers and computers churn out stiff tickets (along with a picture of the car`s licence plates) are, after several years of suspicion, finally recognized as a cost-effective way to keep the roads safe. Surveillance cameras are also used for broader crime prevention, particularly in UK as I understand, and are providng effective. The rapid increase in use of video cameras to record crime activity is clearly working in favor of the citizen and against crooks and even against big brother himself (police brutality being all too often exposed too).

The issues for us in Pakistan therefore are therefore not so much concerns with big brother, but more with (a) how do we make video surveillance affordable, and (b) how do we make the broader system (surveillance, police action, legal action) work to the advantage of the citizen. (a) I think is easy - these cameras are now within affordable range, at least in major cities and population centers, in Pakistan. In addition, in residential areas, communities could be encouraged to finance their own surveillance camera. (b) requires work. There are moves afoot in Pakistan to improve the quality of police and also to modernize the judicial system. This is a good time to address (b) as part of these efforts.

Dear nasah

I am convinced. I think I will try to get hold of ``Diwan-e-ghalib`` :-)

Thanx

Sherdil:

Thanks for a succinct and informative response. Ok, I guess I needed to add a little more on the ``commando action`` option. Let me clarify some thoughts:

-You said that a superb observation/surveillance system is required to point out the destructive elements. I agree on the need. I do not think that the masses are that alert and aware of who`s up to what - please correct me if I am wrong. I have been away since early 90s and go home(Lahore)on family functions or in winters. I am not very familiar with Karachi`s lifestyle. I have visited the city a few times and that`s it. I have seen the black jeeps patrolling here and there in Lahore. No offense meant, but the occupants appear to be Dakus [dacoits] themselves. Who would like to rely or lean on their help? Excuse my heartfelt remarks! Somehow if in that same jeep, men in army uniform are seated, I, as a passerby, would feel far more comfortable to address them or ask for their assistance. The Patrol Police appears to be the twins of ``dacoits.`` Their hulya (garb) is mahaa’n strange. They are sustul-wajood(lazy), nikamma, wasting the petrol of government owned vehicles and are good for nothing. Now, after lodging all these complaints, I would have to say that, I won’t generalize that for all. After all, it`s a very tough task to find culprits while driving around in garmi, surdi, bahar and khizaan. I have known of a few cases in LCCHS[Lahore Defense area], where these patrol cars stopped young maid-servants and started interrogating them unnecessarily. Many times, my sister and I`d drop our maid servant to her place than letting her walk alone – specially, as she would run into these draoni-moochoa’n-walae. Can you believe that these machos are stopping the maid-servants as part of their jobs? Now, should we get someone to keep an eye on these patrol-men? Do you think that they will ever be able to perform their assigned tasks? I am sorry I won’t rely on them at all for anything. They have never been able to catch anyone. Do the murderers wear a green chador and disappear later on?

-Maulana Edhi deserves a lot of credit for his efforts. Hats off to him and his family. I agree with you that is not enough. You cannot completely put the burden of law-and-order on the masses and exonerate yourself, if you are in the government. If that’s what has to happen, then there should not be any government and these people should form their own govt, in their respective areas/regions.


-I strongly feel that armed forces should designate their Intelligence Officials in the area and put their best foot forward. Police has not been able to achieve anything in the past decade or so. Miracles do not happen overnight. There is no hope! I am an optimist, but here, the writing is pretty much on the wall.

-I agree, once you have some information only then you can go for a commando action. I was assuming that all the steps that lead to the commando action will be taken care of, by our Jawaans :). I think it is only the matter of bringing it to the agenda of Intelligence and moving forth from there. If the issue is not on the list, then obviously why would anyone care to look into it. Sameer JB commented that the armed forces aren’t interested to look into the interest of masses. Well, armed forces did not land from Jannat’ul’Firdaus, they are part and parcel of the masses as well. It`s the uniform they are in, that separates them, from the police force. Both uniforms have different assignments and set of responsibilities. Probably, someone needs to bring it up.

Continued…

just saw the posting on eklavya`s accident: I pray he recovers and that it is not as serious as it sounds. Is there anything we chowkwallahs can do?

tahmed321, you are absolutely right - the population of Karachi cannot be expected to confront these killers. In the post I pointed to `observation` and `surveillance` - this I think can be done by the ordinary citizen. But for it to work, there MUST be a hotline they can call anonymously, or an email address, which in practice may be unworkable: i.e. I can see these being used by cranks etc, and even the killers themselves to target innocent people. The only way I can see for this to work is to have video surveillance points. A picture in realtime can do what people on the ground cannot (or may not) do. Low-cost video cameras are available, so the task then becomes one of finding locations that cannot be easily compromised. These locations have to be in traffic areas and public areas. Any thoughts on this? I`ll be honest - I absolutely hate this idea myself, because this is surveillance as in Big Brother. I much prefer the neighborhood-watch idea.

Jul-29-01 13:47:59 EST Reply #: 34
Pravin

Editors, please publish. Urgent.

Raj (eklavya) has been in a near fatal road accident near Xenia, Ohio. The Urgent CareUnit of the Greene Memorial Hospital must contact his parents in India immediately. If anyone knows his India number, call Bart Thompson, Urgent Care Unit, Green Memorialat 937-372-8011. Hurry because physicians may want to transfer Raj to Dayton orColumbus for emergency care. You can also send me the number (pravinbajpayee@yahoo.com).

Jiye Sindh #181 ``I request all of you to gain knowledge.``

Right on brother. But why stop (or even start) with education in politics - why not education through which you become a prized knowledge worker anywhere in the world, or a self-starting entrepreneur. Then, like the Count of Monte Cristo, you can use your economic clout to avenge yourself.

Or better yet, you can then carry out the best form of revenge - i.e. living well.

sherdil: I agree that law and order has to be job 1. But it is too much to expect ordinary citizens to be able to stand up to hoodlums. This is why we have police. In Pakistan, and Karachi in particular, I think the police needs to more actively involve the community in support of it`s efforts - e.g. each community (residential or business locality) could have the option to get organized into a ``community watch`` where they keep any eye open for potential troublemakers and report it to the police on a direct phone line. Police would then be responsible for strengthening police patrols in targetted areas, thus scaring off potential trouble-makers from that community. And there can be other ways to strengthen police activity (e.g. understanding with private security firms, better public awareness, training and financial and recognitional incentives to individual police officers to go out of their way to serve the public.

On the last point: I recall in Islamabad when my car was having trouble starting in the middle of the road, I asked a group of policement passing by if they could lend me a hand in pushing the car - the officer apologetically responded that he could not do so since he was in uniform! This told me a lot about the colonial mentality that lingers on with the police (the officer incidentally changed his mind after that and I got the ``dhakka start`` I needed to be on my way). However, if I had been a barefoot taxi driver, I doubt if I would have received the same courtesy.

I am not familiar with the nature of the recent police reforms, and wonder if anyone on chowk as links to some description of these reforms.

Dear Pankaj:

``Sirf ahsaas hai yeh rooh se mahsoos karo

Pyar ko pyar hi rahne do koi naam na de``

There couldn`t be a more ``nafees`` description of love than this.

R u sure u need an Urdu dictionary to enjoy Ghalib?

Zahra Khanoom, I just got on this board and started reading the postings after seeing your question about a commando action in Karachi to bring the situation there under some form of control. I feel deeply for Karachi and its inhabitants. Your question indicates the frustration and desperation that most Karachites must feel at the killings that have taken place there. Is the answer a commando action? The nature of the operations that commandos undertake requires above all, superb intelligence information. For reasons I won`t go into now, the killers on motorcycles have consistently been able to get away without their identities or whereabouts being revealed. They have also been able to approach their victims without their guns (in some cases, automatic weapons) being detected, even though they were on motorcycles with the shalwar/kameezes flapping. What this points to is a need, first and foremost, to a system of surveillance points at a variety of locations. Once the enemy is identified, and his base located, then you can begin to target them. Thus we have two main requirements: A dependable observation system and a willingness to target the killers. Who is best positioned to observe? Certainly the population is. But the population is also frightened by these same killers. However, we do have one force on the streets of Karachi and other cities in Pakistan, not only see everything, but consistently patrol the dangerous areas on their missions to help. These are the men and women of Edhi Sattar. Regrettably for the suffering souls of Karachi, the people who work for Edhi Sattar also do not get involved in the political lines of fire. This leaves the citizens of Karachi as the ones who must step in. I think that President Musharraf MUST take charge of Karachi and do it in a hurry. But for him to cleanse the city, it will take men and women on the ground standing bravely in the face of men who have only the destruction of Pakistan in their hearts.

To all Sindhis here

I request all of you to gain knowledge. Knowledge about your culture, your history, your people. Knowledge and awareness are the most potent tools in resistence against the injustice. Read G.M. Syed, one of the great freedom fighters who was hanged by the Govt of Pakistan. Work towards eradicating social evils in Sindh. Sindh demands every Sindhi to do his duty.

Urstruly

I will be out of town and hence will not be able to respond to all your questions. You have shown some understanding of our problems. Let me quickly make some points:

1. You say, `` Do you think Sindhis are ready to sacrifice for what it takes?``

Yes we have. This is what I call arrogance. Do you mean letting loose another wolf Tikka Khan on us for demanding our rights. Are you hinting towards the massacre of Sindhis as happened in Bangladesh by the Punjabi Army. May be you dont mean that since the rest of your post does not suggest that.

2. Please know that around two-third of the total provincial revenues are appropriated by the federal govt(from the memory, you may do some research). Instead of channelising this income properly , there is considerable evidence that it is wasted lavishly by army. The remaining part is distributed unevenly, mainly in Punjab and to a lesser extent in karachi. What about rural Sindh. I am against any portion of resources of Sindh going towards financing Jihadis. Call me selfish but I am more concerned about a hungry Sindhi child in a village than all the greatness of Islamic Jihad for capture of Kashmir.

3. Your point concerning Honor killings is also weak. Look at India, didn`t they also have a law for punishing murderers and criminals. But they realised that a ``dowry death`` is not simply another murder. It is a much more heinous crime against humanity. Today they have enacted a separate law for dealing with dowry problem and the punishment is far more harsh(minimum seven years). Look at the way this law has been implemented effectively. God knows that India has far more social problems than us, but they have dealt with it far better than us. We have a lot to learn from India in the area of Procedural justice.

4. Lastly when we demand the status of a Confederate nation according to 1940 resolution why it becomes a crime. Why was G.M.Syed hanged by the Punjabi establishment. Remember we are demanding our rights according to 1940 resolution, the very foundation of Pakistan. It preceded the formation of Pakistan. Why cant we be granted self determination. We will still live together and cooperate for the prosperity of our people but as allied Sovereign states.

Dear nasah

Thank you for replying. As they say, Urdu is a mellifluous language, the zubaan of ``nafaasat and nazaakat``(pardon me if I made any mistake). My knowledge of Urdu is limited to the ghazals of Jagjeet Singh/Pankaj Udhas and Bollywood movies. I have heard a lot about Mirza Ghalib and Faiz Ahmed Faiz but due to aforementioned problems, I could not read a whole lot of them. Regarding the sher, it was beautiful, but I liked the truncated version that you gave even more:-)

``Tere waade pe jiye hum...(a short pause)

Ke khushi se mar na jaate agar aitbaar hota``

Actually when I read the second line the sarcasm embedded in the first line dawned on me rather majestically. May be it is that sudden change of mood, the beauty of the unsaid( the second part of the first line), this version strikes me as more enigmatic. Wo ek gaana hai na(lament my poor taste)

``Hum ne dekhi hai un aankho ki mahakti khushboo,

Haath se choo ke use use rishton ka ilzaam na do

Sirf ahsaas hai yeh rooh se mahsoos karo

Pyar ko pyar hi rahne do koi naam na de``

I saw this article in rediff.com, 07/28/01.

Perhaps, we could try to be, Union of South Asia(USA...cool name!)

Read on,

* * * * * *

US, Canada plan to dismantle border

Ajit Jain in Toronto

Canada and the United States are considering dismantling their 4,800-kilometre border to allow for free movement of people and fewer immigration restrictions for workers.

A front-page report in Saturday`s Toronto Star quotes Canadian government sources in the US and Canada as saying that ``the 49th Parallel would become a `Main Street North America` rather than a restrictive checkpoint for the 200 million people who cross it annually and $2 billion (Canadian) in goods that cross daily``.

This report comes in the wake of an earlier report that Canada is heading towards adopting the US dollar as its national currency.

Canada will abandon the loonie (Canadian dollar) and become the US Federal Reserve`s 13th district ``within five years`` unless the government changes its policies to prop up the eroding Canadian currency, Jeffrey Rubin, chief economist for the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce, is quoted as saying in a report in The Financial Times.

While other Canadian economists have begun forecasting a shift to the US dollar in 10 to 20 years or more, Rubin`s is considered the most slender time frame in Canada opting for the US currency.

As the Canadian dollar is slowly becoming obsolete, government officials on both sides consider the border between the two countries also ``obsolete``. If at all, it will remain in symbolic terms.

The Canadian daily says that under a new concept of continental border enforcement, Canada and the US will defend their share of the North American `perimeter`. Officials at entry points will question new arrivals to weed out illegal immigrants and potential terrorists. Once inside, people will be able to travel freely.

Elinor Caplan, Canadian immigration minister, has reportedly supported this notion: ``Modernising the border is something the [immigration] department has been looking at as a longer-term project and the perimeter strategy is something that`s being looked at,`` Caplan`s spokesman Alain Laurencelle is quoted as saying.

``In the 21st century, in the case of Canada and the United States, the traditional concept of an international border has lost its relevance,`` Michael Kergin, Canada`s ambassador in Washington, is quoted as observing. ``I believe we should think of the border not as a frontier but as a meeting place,`` said US Ambassador in Ottawa Paul Cellucci, who`s a former governor of Massachusetts and a personal friend of President George W Bush.

``A `main street` is where people meet, traffic moves and business gets done,`` he reportedly said.

``The more user-friendly it becomes, the more it can facilitate the commerce that enriches our societies. That`s where Washington and Ottawa need help from each of your provinces, from interested businesses and stakeholders and from concerned citizens,`` Cellucci added.

According to official statistics, around $700 billion a year worth of goods move across the Canada-US border, which is considered the world`s largest trading relationship.

The free flow of these goods and services could result in 6 per cent saving in prices to consumers. Canada`s export to the United States is worth $359 billion while it imports goods worth $230 billion from its southern neighbour.

All these reports about the dismantling of the US-Canada border and a common currency is an omen of two countries becoming more and more integrated as one entity when 32 million Canadians will join 280 million Americans in singing The Star-spangled Banner on July 4.

Mr. JB:

Kindly paraphrase your last point for me.

I understand the asraar`o`ramooz of the lingo spoken on ``Planet Venus``; but the following must have something to do with the natives of ``Planet Mars.`` Sorry I could neither capture the pun nor could understand the obsession with glues :(

[4) Islamic identity provides glue to keep Pakistan together but the ``synthetic glue`` is hazardous. What about the by-products of ``super-natural crazy glue``?]

?

correction.

``GazloN ki dokaan`` not ka.

Uncle Dost Mittar:

It meant a devilish grin - Dentonic`s ad.

: [Smiling Eyes]
D [Devilish Grin]

Take Care.

Dear Eklavya, Pankaj, Bapu, and Banjara:

Urdu nawaz haiN aap to dou maaktey suun leiN:

maiyey kherudd ke nasshe meiN Zeya khayal rahe

geereiN naa haath se mashriq ke kuhnaa paimaney

zahn ko chahiyey go baaday -e- maghrib ka saroor

dil Zeya gessooye mashriq ka hee shaidaee hai.

Dear banjara:

Shukriya. You may be right. There are all kinds of versions floating around. Quite a few liberties were taken in the film Ghalib -- supposed to be a researched version -- some of them have been altered by Jagjeet Singh -- who has further immortalized Ghalib with his syrupy voice.

Dear Bapu:

You`re right written Urdu is not an easy language to learn.

Ek kiya dou teen umreiN chaahiyeN uskee zulf ko sawaarne meiN.

Thanks for the internet address.

There is a wealth of information there -- also logon ne gazlooN ka dookaan khol rakhkhee hai wahaN. Shukriya.

Re:Reply #: 111

veeresh,

Thanks for your post addressed to me. I have a question for you. I ask you this question because i believed you are most qualified to answer it and that in doing so, you will be unbiased.

Why are we (i mean mainly Indians)talking about Human Rights Violations in Kashmir? To me, it seems they are inevitable and occur because Indian Army is defending its turf. Which moved into the Valley first: Jehadists who are killing innocent people or the Army, which moved in as a reaction to Jehadist forces. Army is fighting an invisible army, a kind of guerilla force. There is no knowing who among the seemilingly innocent civlians in the valley is carrying a grenade or a weapon ready to be hurled or aimed at the next army personnel. I heard that the Army men live on the edges and fear for their lives every minute of their existence. In such a scenario, one is not surprised these violations occur.

Now, if there were no terrorists in the valley (Pakistanis like to call them freedom fighters)and Army were committing these crimes, i would say kick the army out, they have no business to be there. But, then that is not the case. We are reacting to a situation created by these Jehadi elements and carefully encouraged and nurtured by Pakistani rulers. Human Rights violations will cease the day Jehad stops. If army stays there for even one more day, i will be one of its severest critics. If Pakistan were serious and concerned about lives lost due to these HRVs it would discourage Jehad as it is harming Kashmiris the most. People living in nearby states are unaffected by the goings on in Kashmir. Talking about HRV in such circumstances does not seem to make much sense to me. Stop Jehad (diplomatically or militarilsy),bring peace to valley and if still these HRVs occur, talk about them. What do you think?

Sridhar

Zahra #162: Pakistan commando force is a small portion of army. Their total numbers must be much less than total police force in Karachi alone. How would they take upon Jihadis in Karachi, Jhang, Multan and other cities simultaneously? Ultimtely, it has to be police force. Our interior minister, Moinuddin Haider, has been reading from the same written statement from the time of his governorship of Sindh that government has finalized a plan to deal with them. Nobody takes his statements seriously.

Pakistan army is not seriously tested in urban warfare within country. They are more interested in ruling and raising taxes than providing relief to public. Like any other corporation or institution, they are interested to protect their own interests before worrying about others.

General Question:

Is there any current or ex army man on board?
If there is one, I would like to hear your take on a commando action in Sindh. Is it possible to conduct such an operation in the current conditions?

If yes, any repercussions?

If no, why?

Thanks

Nasah:

``Hangama`` can be taken both ways: negative as well as positive. Also, Raunaq should not be read as festivity or celebration - it`s chaos. I intentionally avoided posting the second line of the shaer! Thanks for the correction ``Pur`` than ``Pae.``

Aside from suggesting army to conduct a commando action in Karachi, I think all the ones who are holding high and mighty positions in Karachi`s administration should be taken to task. Good for nothing administration! Then, we hear the constant mourning: in form of blaming of other provinces - Oh yes, talk is very cheap. It diverts us from handling the real issues. Great Strategy!

First of all Sindh needs to re-establish its structure where there is some law-and-order than the ``prevalent lawlessness`` that has been in effect since I do not know when. Interestingly, no one will ``ever`` implement any such steps. This chaos facilitates the actions of the conniving and shrewd ones. It assists them in creating further chaos.

...continued

veeresh #145
If you want to nail some lies, Qanun-e-Shahadat 1984 and its implications are all over the web and (in the Dawn newspaper and I am sure more so in print) where women witnesses are concerned. There is a similar issue with nonMuslim witnesses in cases under Islamic law.
I feel sorry for Pakistani activists who court the disfavor of religious parties in these matters(thats on the web too), if the problems they make it their business to address and they themselves are neither seen nor heard.

Reply #: 164

Eklavya

Urdu-English/Urdu-Hindi dictionary

Does anyone know of a good urdu to english or urdu to hindi dictionary online?

nasah # 163

Janab-e- waala.... misra-e- oola sahih kar lain.

``tere waaday par jiye hum tau yeh jaan jhoot jana``

nawaazish.

Urdu-English/Urdu-Hindi dictionary

Does anyone know of a good urdu to english or urdu to hindi dictionary online?

* * * * * * *

Tere vaade pe jiye hum....

Dear Pankaj:

Ghalib -- India`s and Pakistan`s pride.

Please learn Urdu. Or get the Diwan -e- Ghalib in Hindi. You don`t know what you`re missing.

It goes like this:

Tere vaade pey jiye hum pu yeh hum ne jhoot jana

Ke khooshi se mur na jate agar etabaar hota

Zahra`s line `` aik hangame pey mouqoof hai ghar ki ronaque`` is also Ghalib`s.

Mr. JB:

Somehow, I thought I may find some views on ``commando action`` in your post. Any thoughts on my suggestion ?

Dost Mittar G 155:

:D

by the way the word is barren not baron -- a barren place ruled by the barons may be...

Dear nasah

``Tere vaade pur jiye hum...... ke khushee se mur na jate agar eetabaar hota``.

``

Wah Wah, Who said this.(I am a total novice when it comes to sher-o-shayari)

Romair #156

So far I am in complete concurrence...To Be Continued...

I cannot think of any place in the world, outside of moving to India, where a Pakistani has a closer opportunity to work with Indians than in the Silicon Valley IT industry. I have yet to work on an engineering team which consisted of less than 50% Indians (not an exageration). While I only meet my Pakistanis friends on the weekends, at least half of every working day is spent interacting with Indians. I have noticed the following about Indians in comparison to Pakistanis. I don`t know if it applies to all Indians, or just to the Indians I have met here:

1) Indians know significantly less about Pakistan than Pakistanis know about India:

Indians` knowledge of Pakistan and Pakistanis is very limited. Many of them want to know, but have no access to information. Because of this, they have a vacuum in this area, and they fill it up with things they read in the Indian media, and habits they seem amongst Indian Muslims. In my conversations with Indians, I (and other Pakistanis) can talk for hours about things Indian, yet most Indians stop at, ``Are you from Lahore or Karachi.``

Pakistanis` knowledge about India stems from three factors. The first is the Indian movies and TV telecasts that are available in Pakistan. There must be tens of thousands of Indian movie and music shops in Pakistan. These are probably the biggest source of entertainment in Pakistan for the past twenty years. This serves as a great source of info on India; even if the info presented is not completely based on reality.

Secondly, due to the large difference in numbers, expatriate Pakistanis meet a lot more Indians than vice-versa. In Silicon Valley, the ratio is about 9 to 1 in favor of Indians. Hence Pakistanis are exposed to nine times as much India, than vice-versa.

Thirdly, a higher percentage of Pakistanis trace their heritage to areas now part of present-day India, since a large numbeer of Pakistanis migrated from India than vice-versa. Due to this, a higher percnetage of Pakistanis (in comparison with the total Pakistani population) have relatives still in India, through whom they gain knowledge about India.

Due to the above, the Indian outlook into Pakistan is very limited. That is why many of the comments that Indians make about Pakistan apply more to the Indian Muslim community, and seem completely out of line with what is going on in Pakistan, and the habits of Pakistanis.

2) Indians know a lot more about Islam than Pakistanis know about Hinduism:

(Since nearly every Indian IT person in the USA seems to be a Hindu, by Indian here, I mean Indian Hindus). Pakistanis outside of Karachi, and small portions of rural Sind hardly ever come across a Hindu. I had met maybe 2 or 3, for brief moments, in my whole life in Pakistan. I would say, outside Sind, less than 10% of Pakistanis have ever even met a Hindu. Due to this, Pakistanis don`t know much about Hinduism (apart from the stuff seen in Indian movies).

Due to the large Muslim population in India, Indians know quite a bit about Islam. They probably meet Muslims on a daily basis. This is quite evident from talking to them. They seem quite knowledgeable and comfortable discussing Islam and its various customs.

Added to this is the fact that present-day India`s history is dominated by Muslim rulers. This also adds to the Indians knowledge of Islam.

3) Indians seem more content with life than Pakistanis:

Pakistanis and Indians are at the opposite end of the complain spectrum. If one were to read comments from Indians and Pakistanis regarding their respective countries on Chowk, one would come to the conclusion that Pakistan is about to fall into the Arabian Sea, and India is a first world country. However I doubt, in reality there is too much difference in the day to day lives of people in the two countries. The Indian govt. is wealthier than the Pakistani govt., and the individual Pakistani is wealthier than the individual Indian. Yet the Pakistanis are always complaining and Indians seem quite content.

I have noticed that here as well. A Pakistani and Indian living in similar apartments will talk about their living conditions in completely contrdictory manners. The Pakistani will point ou the negative aspects; the Indian will neither point out the negatives nor the positives.

Indians, in this regard, seem to be quite at peace with themselves and their surroundings. I have hardly ever heard any of them complain.

...........to be continued

Zahra: What a great line!

``aik hangamey peh mauqoof hey ghar kee ronuque``

What a shame! Get ready to hear responses:

1) People of Pakistan are smarter. They do not vote for religious parties.

2) People of Pakistan are stupid. They vote for feudal lords.

3) A murderer crosses the LoC and becomes freedom fighter. Since sectarian murderer are seldom arrested or tried, where do they hide? They hide in madrassahs, Afghanistan and Kashmir.

4) Islamic identity provides glue to keep Pakistan together but the synthetic glue is hazardous. What about the by-products of super-natural crazy glue?

Let us offer condolence to the grieving families and friends of Phoolan Devi and Shaukat Mirza. Please give generous donations to the plight of ``poor`` Thakurs in northern India and selfless, blood-thirsty soldiers of Islam in Pakistan. Let us be even-handed to the victims and vicious. Love thy enemies-with loaded kalashnikovs!!!!

Doctors and professional in Karachi, beware of occupational hazards.

Dear Zahra:

True ``aik hangame pur moqoof hai ghar ki ronaque``

but this is no hangama -- it`s sheer bloody chaos.

In technologically baron places like Muslim Pakistan and Muslim Kashmir -- where only a few such rare flowers ever bloom-- they are being prematurely picked up by the murderous jihadi`s Klashnikoves -- right under the nose of the Army -- which by the way -- is itself lawless..

It only depletes the already deprived community --certainly gives no “ronaque” to Pakistan or Kashmir.

Pakistan army will bring ``real`` democracy and turn Pakistan into a law-abiding paradise? That will be the day.

`` Tere vaade pur jiye hum...... ke khushee se mur na jate agar eetabaar hota``.

Veeresh: I know for a fact that the testimony of a woman is equal to that of a man in courts....

1) Pakistan legal system has never been modified to do anything else.

2) Even in Koran, women have half testimony only in matters of business contracts, and that too has never been enforced by Pakistan or Pakistani legal system.

Kindly stop this propaganda.

Women are considered equal in testimony by Pakistan`s legal system, despite appeals by fundamentalist Parties... even Mahesh G found this to be true...

It is sad that you persist in propagating this false view that women are not equal.

Veeresh

It does not suit a person of your stature to so blatantly lie in public. If there are any Muslims migrating from India to Pakistan or Pakistan to India today, are usually religious Muslims who do not consider national boundries when getting married.

You claimed that you had the UNCHR... but now you have failed to provide them... I am getting sick of your promises...

The finest corona, and the finest lunch in NYC is on me, but that has nothing to do with the fact that you are totally delusional about India in terms of its greatness, and your view of Pakistan is even more warped then before.. especially your claim that women dont have equal testimony.

-YLH

Bijli # 140

``It may be because Non Sindhis are MORE romantic than the `glassy eyed`sindh boys who cant appreciate there own treasure or too busy to do so !!``

Have you ever seen a hardcore, proud realist and rationalist being transformed into a hopeless romantic by the flip of a girl`s little finger?

I have; and therefore, I believe, there may still be hope for Sindhi men :)

hobbyty # 143

The tone of you post is unfortunate. The issue is not whether Sindhis should shape up or not, the issue is whether the Pakistni Politey, Constitution, Army, and fascist-myopic-dishonest politicians should shape up or not. We have no right to tell, Sindhis or any one else for that matter, to shape up unless we (that includes Sindhis as well) as whole shape up first. Unless we (as non Sindhis) put ourselves in their (Sindhis) shoes we cannot even imagine the severity of the situation.

Zafar A Talib # 142

Please keep in mind that separation of Sindh is not an issue between two countries. Sindh confirmed its participation into the Pakistani Federation through its elected body of legislative assembly prior to the partition. Also the Baluchistan and NWFP had refrendums prior to the partition.

- Whereas Kashmir is an issue between two countries.
- The issue started even before the countries of Ind and Pak were partitioned.
- The Ind. constitution came into being a decade after the partition. So Kashmir did not become a part of Indian federation until then and it still isn`t-Kashmir is governed by a special clause in Indian constitution.
- The origin of the dispute of Kashmir has its roots in the formula of partition.
- United Nations and almost every community of nations in the world considers Kashmir as a disputed issue between two countries.

These things have been discussed a zillionth of times on Chowk.

Karakoram:

It was a very disturbing news. It`s alarming to read such episodes, specially when one has many family friends and close friends hailing from that sect. I cannot imagine this happening in Pakistan :(.

I strongly feel that Musharraf needs to put his commandos in action. Just like they were in action when the coup took place. In order to nip the evil in the bud, an over-night commando action against *such destructive elements * needs to be conducted - only then there will be some law-and-order.

Somehow I cannot resist raising the following questions:

- Why is the army fast asleep when it should be in action?

- Why is the enthusiasm *in action * only to topple democratic governments?

- Why is that enthusiasm missing when their actions *can * / *will * have a very positive impact on the masses?

- Are they plain duffers and cannot see what`s happening?

Unless *a commando action * is not taken, we will keep on reading such stories. The provincial government[if still alive] must invest their attention in this area than anywhere else. Well, in order to do so, they will have to let go off the intoxicating substance they have been consuming for years. Being an escapist is not going to help here at all; facing the challenges will bring the change.

Interestingly, there is a lot of hoopla on *promotion of peace * in the air. The government owes *promotion of peace * to its own people first than approachng anyone anywhere else. The strong emphasis lies on - *owes. *

I am reminded of the final stage of an interview(3rd round) with the M.D of a multi-national firm; who flew from Pakistan to the US, to finalize my offer. This was in 1995, after my graduation. It was an excellent package from Pakistan`s standpoint; but the negative point was, that it was in Karachi - den of lawlessness. In response to my concern on law-and-order in KHI, the M.D very confidently narrated his recent kidnapping for ransom. The incident had taken place before his current trip to the US. Being an elderly gentleman, close to retirement - his calmness, while narrating the accident, was amazingly impressive. The kidnapping took place in the presence of his body-guards. His brother-in-law, who happened to be a senior police official(in those days)traced him and got him out of that mess. The very thought of learning about such practices - where people were kidnapped, murdered and etc - was mind-boggling.

Has these practices ever been part and parcel of our culture? In my heart and heart, I saluted the said gentleman`s nerves. After listening to him, I told myself, ``Zahra, forget it!`` My parents stood by my wise decision. Every time, I read or hear about *such * accidents, I am reminded of that all day discussion session with ``the strong-nerved gentleman.`` Sadly, things have gone worse.

- Should *a-third-world-developing-country * consider having its priorities in right order?

- Kashmir
Or
- Dinner with Vajpayee
Or
- Law and Order in the country

What`s the most important task?

Somehow, I have lost my train of thoughts and cannot figure out if I was trying to be cynical or was attempting to be sarcastic. I will avoid delving into further complexities and will end with my *heartfelt afsoas * on the current happenings!

Reminds me of the first misraa of a poignant shaer:

urstruly #135 For once, I would generally agree with what you say, and indeed you have shown more forbearance and patience in interacting with Jiye Sindh than I would have.

Now that we are on a roll, perhaps you could consider applying the same patience when interacting with Indian posters. Then we would really be getting somewhere on chowk.

Dear YLH . . . 133 # . . .

1) Feroze Gandhi to Nusli Wadia to Jinnah, read up on lineage and history young man . . . point I am making YLH which you seem to not to understand is that you asked me if any Indian Woman Prime Minister was Muslim and I said, yes, one was married to a Muslim, and his name was Feroz Gandhi, in the backdrop of why the Parsees left persia . . .

2) My figures from UNHCR on why Pakistanis and Indians want to leave India are already up. The figures on why Pakistanis want to come to India as refugees will be put up, but as I said, you haven`t really denied it as yet.

3) I stand by what I say on the women testimony in Pakistan issue. So does your Hudood.

4) Now you please answer all the unanswered questions to you . . . like, do you shave?

Ali1

MQM is most certainly a violent dictatorship and cult of personality

How can you dispute romair`s assertion that the Mohajir community are the leading lights of Pakistan - Do facts means nothing?

The real enemy of all Pakistanis are land holding feudal lords. It is these lords who have used the issue of Mohajirs as their cause celebre. It is the feudal land lords that have exerted their powers to deny the Pakistanis in bangladesh the right of return, it is these feudal lords who threaten violence if more Muslims are allowed to emigrate to pakistan from India.

It is these feudal lords who see their grip over Sind loosening because of the urban and industrial, modern and socially foward looking instinct of the Mohajir community.

MQM by creating a cult of personality around the Student leader / rabble rouser Altaf do immeasurable harm to the identity and years of sacrifice of us Mohajirs, who gave Pakistan it`s fighting spirit, it`s vision of itself within the ummah and the world.

Please do not allow yourself to be driven by passion and taken in by these vile anti Pakistan element who do use us as if pawns.

``Dhoti aur naswar kahan se aiee``? Why? have they stopped being our own blood? We are one! not little groups, but ONE!

Jiye Sindh

Have waderas run out of raping innocent Hindu village girls and then claiming that the tortured soul had converted to Islam and then discarding the person as if garbage?

What have the likes of you ever done for Pakistan - In which of it`s sacrifices did you participate?

More power! More money! More land! More! More! More! Want army contracts, then support the army! want more federal funds, then create conditions that are conducive for enterprise, and arrest criminals!

When will you learn to do for yourself? Want more money, honestly earn more money then! allow more industry, tax more, build more, cooperate more. Stop brutalizing the hari and treating them as if they were yor property; India days are gone, your caste system is over! Learn to live in the light of Pakistan, as upright and humble Muslims, who first ask what they can do for Pakistan! and not what has Pakistan done for me!

And fear the consequences that we will deliver on to those who do threaten the fruit of our fathers and sons`s sacrifices!

Shape up! Sober up! get a freaking job, pay your all your taxes, keep your head down and play by the rules.

Reply Urstruly #132

``Referendums for separation do not happen in Federations.``

If that point is true when talking about Sind and Pakistan it should also be applied when talking about Kashmir and India.

Reply #: 127

[Eklavya re: Dost-Mittar # 120

``Sindhi girls are quite a prize for non-Sindhis``]

`Beuty is in the eye of the beholder `?

It may be because Non Sindhis are MORE romantic than the `glassy eyed`sindh boys who cant appreciate there own treasure or too busy to do so !!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

ID # 137

I agree 100% what you are saying and I fully support provinces` right on their revenue first as in any decent politey in the world. But such arrangements can only be successful when it is protected by a constitution. There hasnt been a constitution since 1977 even though all the governments followed the distribution of revenue as dictated by the constitution of 1973. But in the absence of a constitution a relatively smaller province which is contributing more has no power to be part of a system of check & balance. THat breeds contempt and a feeling of being left out. Can we blame smaller provinces for having this feeling? Even if we are somehow able to establish a stricter and fairer taxing system even more stricter than that of IRS, the smaller provinces will always complain as long as they are not a part of system of check and balances- and it can only happen by the rule of constitution and law.

Jiye Sindh and Urstruly:

All the issues you have raised are very important to the way different ethnicities interact with each other. Naturally if one feels being treated unfairly, difference of opinions start to develop. To the question of why is Punjab being given more projects than Sindh, and the answer `` back it up with facts``, I simply state that why cant our provincial governments have a bigger share of the tax revenue from the province that gives it. For instance in the US and Canada, there are two taxes, one provincial and the other federal. Now both these shares are divided adequately, and the province has more power in deciding where its earned money goes. For instance if a person pays a total of 20% income tax, then 10-12 % goes to the province and the remainder goes to the federal government. The way the federal government decides spending this money (i.e. trying to see which areas need more development and spending it accordingly) is its business, and here the national interests should be looked upon. This reduces the chance of the federal government distributing the funds unequally. Unfortunately in Pakistan this system is not followed at all. Why does the central government have to decide how much money goes to each province. Why cant the provinces have there own percentage of tax regardless on what the aggregate tax collection revenue is.

I think this kind of system will reduce these complaints of unfairness significantly, as nobody will have a chance to be unfair!

RE: Romair # 80

Romair writes ``The Muhajir community, by a gigantic margin, is the most successful, most educated, most wealthy, most business oriented, most powerful (in proportion to their size), most computer literate, and the most upwardly mobile ethnic community in Pakistan.``

Further: ``I am a great admirer of this community as a whole, and consider it the only truly educated (and sophisticated) group in Pakistan.``

Then he writes: ``The MQM`s dictatorship over urban Sind needs to be broken.`` and ``I am more than a bit surprised that a great portion of the educated Muhajir community has bought into Altaf Bhai`s arguments``

Romair thinks that even the most ``educated``, ``sophisticated`` etc. etc. community in Pakistan is not capable of electing its political leadership wisely. What use is their education and sophistication if they are no better than Benazir`s serfs in casting their votes?

Romair, MQM is not a dictatorship, it is the elected leadership of Mohajirs in Sindh. Either you accept and respect the choice of Mohajirs without agreeing to their agenda of course, or retract the praises you have showered on them. Or at least qualify your praises with ``although Mohajir community is the most educated, sophisticated etc. etc. community in Pakistan, I, Romair, am wiser than their collective wisdom and can decide for them as to who can or cannot be their leader``.

If this does not qualify as Punjabi arrogance, pray tell me what would. And this from a person who comes accross as pretty level headed and down to earth.

Further to #132

Jeye Sindh

I overlooked one of your questions which needs to be addressed also before you allege that I was trying to hide something:

``Do you deny that deliberate attempts were/are being made by Punjabi establishment to change the demographic composition of Sindh.``

In past two such attempts may be analyzed objectively. The first attempt is the migration of Mohajirs into Sindh from India after the partition. You have to prove that Punjabi establishment has its hands in this. I dont think that at that time the so-called ``Punjabi establishment`` even existed. Why is it always forgotten that Punjab bore the main brunt of refugees at the time of Partition and the number of refugees from East Punjab was several times as those of Mohajirs (urdu speaking). Wouldnt it be easier for ``Punjabi establishment`` to divert half of the trains towards Sindh and NWFP and Baluchistan. Instead it took care of its responsibility-it absorbed all the down trodden and huddled masses and made them one of their own.

The second attempt may be when baren lands were alloted to Army officials and their cohorts. Please keep in mind that I do not endorse that unless it is consented by the provincial government. But when this was happening there was no provincial government; army was herding the people of Pakistan like cattle every where. How is a common Punjabi responsible for something on which he has no control. But on the other hand you must also see that those people who were given baren lands they worked their butts off to turn them into profitable agricultural lands. The people of Sindh have benefited from it directly and indirectly. The revenue that is/was generated from these farms stays in Sindh, since there is/ was no agriculture tax.

And I dont know how Punjabi establishment is presently changing the demographics of Sindh-plz enlighten me.

Who did this and why ?

Pakistan Oil Managing Director Shot

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS



Filed at 3:15 a.m. ET

KARACHI, Pakistan (AP) -- Gunmen shot and killed the head of the country`s largest oil company Thursday in the volatile southern port city of Karachi, police said.

Shaukat Mirza, managing director of the government-owned Pakistan State Oil, was on his way to work when motorcycle gunmen blocked his vehicle and opened fire.

The 62-year-old Mirza died immediately, but his chauffeur, Salman Shah, attempted to flee the gunmen. He was caught and killed, police said.

No one has taken responsibility for the killings and so far there have been no arrests.

However, police fear Mirza`s murder may have been religiously motivated because he was a Shiite Muslim. Karachi has been the scene of relentless tit-for-tat killings by rival Shiite and Sunni Muslim militants.

Most of Pakistan`s 140 million people are Sunni Muslims who have no quarrel with their Shiite Muslim brethren. However, heavily armed groups belonging to both groups routinely clash.

Previously prominent members of both sects, who are not linked to militant groups, have been targeted.

Mirza, who took over Pakistan State Oil in February last year, was hired to oversee the transfer of the government-owned corporation to private hands.

The company was scheduled to be privatized by 2002.

Veeresh...

What the hell?

What does Parsees leaving Iran have to do with Pakistan? Have they left Pakistan too? Last time I checked Ardeshir Cowasjee and Bapsi Sidwah were patriotic and concerned Pakistanis?

You are now continuing this argument just for the sake of some personal gratification...

1) You were unable to provide us with UNCHR figures... convoluted posts dont make up for broken promises.

2) You havent apologized for your misleading statement about women having half the testimony as man in Pakistan, which is completely false.

3) You havent admitted that you were wrong about Feroze Gandhi though that has nothing to do with the argument.

Jeye Sindh # 131

I still don’t understand why I am arrogant now. You accuse me of something, I demand and explanation, and you call me arrogant. I don’t understand that.

I have read all the posts written by Amina Shah, Delicious_Karachi, and MO2000.

In response to amina shah`s # 17
I wrote in #26 ``Most of the concerns of Samina Shah are genuine. Please refrain from addressing those issues by raising counter-allegations-a more objective approach must be adopted. It is impossible to achieve a system based on Social Justice unless each and everyone is heard; also it is impossible unless we work together.``

Whereas Tahmad321 wrote in #21

``amina Shah #17 I think you have some valid points on how the Sindhi people have suffered. This topic is important enough that it deserves more than a letter –``

When Amina Shah wrote # 47 to ask me about my political convictions I responded with my # 61. Please re-read # 61 and tell me one thing that contradicts with your agenda or Amina Shah`s concerns. My point of view actually supports your point of view with the exception of the issue of ``separation`` which I do not support.

As far as MO 2000 is concerned he can attest that I have supported his point of view on more than one board. I have encouraged him to write on the subject of Sindh. For example check the replies in the following board:

http://www.chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?f=gvenkateswar_jun3001&n=10#reply15

I did try to answer one of your agenda item on Honor Killing in # 62 and I stand by it because when people try to bring out issues with out home work without knowing and acknowledging the background of a problem they not only make a mockery of themselves but also make the mockery of as serious issues as that of Honor Killing.

In this post you ask:

``Do you deny that Sindhis are generally looked down upon by Punjabis``

My reply:

Do you deny that Punjabis are generally looked down upon by Sindhis. Isn`t it obvious from the verbiage you and Delicious_Karachi have used against Punjabis and me on an interactive board before even trying to find out what they (Punjabis) have to say? or Is that something you promote to bring out ethnic differences between people?

You ask:

`` Do you deny that provinces are allocated a meagre share of the total revenue and the major part of the revenue then is spend by the federal Punjabi establishment in Punjab instead of dividing it fairly between provinces.``

My reply:

Check my #61 where I wrote `` Sindh is the richest province in Pakistan, if this statement is true then people of Sindh have the first right on the riches of Sindh. And a federal constitution must guarantee that. And I think the constitution of 1973 pretty much delivered that. But one must keep in mind that the constitution is a living document that is updated continuously through a democratic process, which unfortunately hasn’t happened for the past 23 years.``

You ask:

`` Why majority of developmental projects go to Punjab.``

My reply:

Please substantiate your claim. As far as I know Sindh has pretty impressive development plans as well. The Karachi steel mill (which is a city by itself), oil refineries, various Industrial estates in Karachi as well as interior Sindh, development and maintenance of irrigation system in Sindh and mining and petroleum industry are pretty impressive as well. Dams are in NWFP except Mangla, airports, civil aviation authority, seaports, air-fields, cantonments, and Cadet colleges, are they not development projects. In 1947 Pakistan had less than 600 industrial units, in 1992 only Karachi had more than 6000 industrial units. Isn`t it development? It is true that mostly Punjabi and Mohajir entrepreneurs took part in this development but didn`t whole Sindh benefit from this development.

You ask:

`` Do you deny that every natonality such as Baluchi, Saraiki, Sindhi has got right to self determination. Why doesn`t Punjabi establishment hold a referendum in Sindh to find out if Sindhis want to remain in Pakistan.``

My reply:

Yes I deny that because they did get their chance to self-determination when they joined Pakistani Federation. It is the responsibility of all federating units to take part in the political process and formulate a just Social System, which guarantees the protection of the rights of each unit. Tell me, hasn’t Sindhi politicians collaborated with Pakistan Army when every time they rape our constitution and deny the citizenship rights of its people. Wasn’t Bhutto a Sindhi who collaborated with Army to deny the right of government to Bengalis even after they had won election? And isn`t Benazir a Sindhi who used army to suppress dissent in Karachi more violently than even a dictator has done it before.

Referendums for separation do not happen in Federations. Please also note the legislative requirements in Canada under which such referendum takes place in Quebec. Can you ask Sindhi politicians why don’t they work toward such legislation? Rights of determinations are not ``requested`` they are assumed and snatched from the oppressors. Do you think Sindhis are ready to sacrifice for what it takes? But there is still hope. Punjab is ready to listen to you. You must appeal to their good conscience. You must not segregate Punjab from your struggle. We can work together towards a common goal-the goal of establishing a just Social contract and social system. It can all be done together. Spreading the hate against Punjabis is only dividing the nation and neither Punjabi nor Sindhi benefit from this-only Army, fascist politicians and their cohorts who are the real oppressors of whole Pakistan benefit.

Now before I further answer your questions may I ask once again, how I am arrogant even when I am trying to listen to you, I am trying to debate with you, I am even supporting your point of view. Then how am I arrogant? Or is it a defense mechanism to prevent people from scrutinizing what you are saying?

Urstruly and Tahmed

You people say,``Please explain how Sindhi culture is in danger from Punjabis, if you dont want to answer his question; which was:

``And I am a Panjabi, and would like to understand exactly how I am your enemy. You could explain by answering the question I posed if you like. Or provide your reasons.``

``

This is not you but your Punjabi arrogance speaking. Had you been sensitive to our problems you would not have asked these questions. Tahmed, I ask you if you have really read all the posts by Amina, myself, DeliciousKarachi and M02000. Have you read the proceedings of the World Sindhi Congress to understand what our concerns are and how are we being exploited. Most probably not, else you wouldn`t have asked such stupid questions. Do you deny that deliberate attempts were/are being made by Punjabi establishment to change the demographic composition of Sindh. Do you deny that Sindhis are generally looked down upon by Punjabis. Do you deny that provinces are allocated a meagre share of the total revenue and the major part of the revenue then is spend by the federal Pu