The Vedic Solution

I just continue to find this article even more relevant after my last visit to Pakistan. May be time for a reprint?

Reply Saminashah #195

Samina

“I really find some of the Chowk threads (re:posts) too tangential and alienating too bear.”

I confess I tend to skim over ones which post and rep-ost and counter every single line of another post. But I must also confess that I’m guilty of doing the re-post and counter ad nauseum thing myself. I suppose Inner Conflict is my doom.

“My perspective comes as a South Asian American, and to some Chowkwallahs, I am probably considered an outsider.”

I’d say that at least some people might react badly to your approach because it is different (and why shouldn’t it be?) from the ones they are used to on the subcontinent. As you may have noticed we DO tend to argue and re-argue and re-argue the same tattered viewpoints again and again. And in some ways an old argument is like an old friend – comfortable, familiar and (on Chowk) safe. Certainly questions coming from a new perspective can be profoundly unsettling because they question not just the opinions people hold but their assumptions. They don’t call it the New World for nothing.

“As we know, identity is not a cut and dried matter, it is exactly the opposite…”

I would agree with you on this, but as you can tell from some interactions on Chowk many people would not have the same opinion. My feeling is that this is one of the differences between “average opinion” in the New World and the Old. (I’m not implying homogeneity here, just what I unscientifically perceive as the average.)

“Is there any way we could facillitate a conversation among Chowkwallahs willing to discuss some of the issues involved in 1. being part of the South Asian diaspora 2. what South Asians and South Asian diaspora citizens can share, in terms of understanding history, culture, politics?”

Perhaps an article on the subject would elicit such a conversation? Though sundry facts/cut and pastes about air force statistics, etc. would doubtlessly also be featured.

Best wishes

Zafar

Reply Nasah #198

Nasah

“You may not be strange but your statement is indeed strange.”

I AM strange! I freely admit it. In fact not only am I strange, my family is strange, my friends are strange, my furniture is strange….well, the list goes on and one.

“As to your question “why WERE they built on the sites of temples?`` If you ask that question then you question your own existence -- as to what a Zafar Al Talib is doing in a “Hindu” place like India.”

I exist because I’m here. The historical events which led to my being here do not affect my existence’s validity.

“The answers to all these “Whys” -- is simple – that was the order of the day -- that was the “law of the jungle” –- the “law of conquest” -- in those days .”

That is correct.

Proceding from there, let me ask you why this makes it invalid to question whether living by the law of the jungle is something we wish to continue to do TODAY? Do you think that living by the law of the jungle is good for India and Indians of any faith? Why?

“You want to apologize for the mosques built over temples -- then why don’t you apologize for your own existence as Zafar Al Talib to your aggrieved RSS brethren –- this is not secularism – this is toadyism.”

Apologies imply personal responsibility.

I have made NO attempt to apologise to anybody for the destruction of any temple or mosque, since I have not destroyed any (nor have I supported any such actions).

(Please also note: I do not appreciate your putting words in my mouth, and find the ethics involved in your doing so questionable.)

You seem to imply that criticising the actions of some rulers of India who happened to be Muslim is casting aspersions on all Muslims living in India today. That’s a ridiculous viewpoint. What is the logical connection?

Stating that it is WRONG to destroy places of worship because you have the power to do so is not an apology, it is my (considered) opinion.

I feel that this holds true for Aurangzeb and also for the RJM/BM mob.

(Now of course if I were to adopt your debating style I would ask you why you thought that temples in India should be knocked down and mosques built in their place – but I won’t. You haven’t said that, just as I have never said that today`s Indian Muslims should apologise for Aurangzeb`s actions. Geddit? I hope that if you respond to this post you will actually respond to THIS post – not to some imaginary post you find easier to answer, containing imaginary responses which are easier to rubbish.)

Zafar

PS Croak. Croak. Croak. Would you like a wart?

Reply Tahmed321 #197

Civil religion?

Reply Stuka #196

Your post may have been intemperate, but it struck a fairly deep cord in me.

As for religion/nationalism – the combination works if religion remains in the individual’s domain. It’s only when individuals or organisations speaking for the two compete for the power to direct public life that there is trouble.

Zafar

Reply rsridhar #206

My point is that if it was wrong to knock down places of worship then, it’s certainly wrong to do it now – in fact it`s probably worse because we should have evolved at least a little bit. So I agree with you.

Zafar

rsridhar #207 Actually I too had the vague impression that buddhism died out in India due to some kind of competition from hinduism. I must admit I never gave this matter much thought till now. On chowk of course, where Hindu vs. Muslim stuff is compared as fervently as we discussed the relative merits of certain female classmates in Government College Lahore, such matters become issues. Anyway, thanks for educating me a bit with your post.

Incidentally, what about jains: are they considered part of hinduism?

Reply #: 208

rsridhar

Re:Reply #: 186

Stuka,

It has been posted here before ,Bohra is a sect of Muslim & many Bohra chose to migrate to Pakistan believing in TNT of Jinnah.The greatest critic of Govt.India`s present chauvinistic govt.is Asghar Ali Engineer a bohra muslim.The Bohras chief Syedna Burhanuddin Saifuddin,(i may be incorrect about exact name) lends full support to Pakistan & all muslim causes from Palestine to Kashmiri muslims.

If another hindu is going to mention Premji of Wipro im going to throw up .So what .I dont think he is what he is BECAUSE he is indian muslim or Bohra .One thing it proves that Indians only want Indian Muslims who are worth keeping ,sonmething like the Nazi selective mercy .Kill the most down ,poor ,illiterate as diseased people instead of taking responsibility for them & bask with the rich indian muslims in the glory of secularism & fun frolic of LAXMI !!

The godess of Money $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Reply #: 207

rsridhar

Re:Reply #: 185

``....Buddhism existed in India and now they are in small numbers they must have been vanquished by the vily hindus,right. This is a typical jehadi thinking.....``??????????

* * * * * * * * * * * *

FYI,Sir,this exactly is the HINDU theory about turning back the clock(history) with respect 1000 yrs (roughly) rule of muslim in India.JUST B/C THEY RULED THEY MUST HAVE KILLLED HINDUS DEMOLISHED HINDUISM TEMPLES etc etc etc.

How can you be right about events prior to 700a.d. when you have distorted history of more recent (relatively ) events 1000a.d. & after.

Hinduism ,with its strict laws of ,casteism,sati ,dowry,devdasni ,probably more forceful & supressive than edicts of austere islamic laws of no wine ,women, &gambling , is more likely to be detrimental to buddhism philosophy than Islam could ever be to Hnduism even in MORE than 1000 years,

The least you could ,if you still believe in your contention of Huns that muslims alaso have explanation of those barbaric stories about Aurangzeb,Ghazani Ghourie & propoganda if you belkuieve in distortion.

Sridhar:

I am aware of WIPRO and all. But, this stuff going down in Rajasthan has really disheartened me. Of what good are a couple of show case Muslims if the community at large feels disheartened. I never felt this bad for the Babri Masjid, because I think that was more a case of political agendas on both sides, than any religious piety, and well, the stronger side won.

But, I think this is an outrage. And its not just the BJP, the Gujjars apparently belonged to both the parties, including Cogress. HobbyTy is right in the sense that what he says, should not be disregarded simply be cause a Pakistani is saying. Or, if we choose to disregard him, we should at least acknowledge the fact that you cannot rub a community`s face in the mud out of sheer meaness. I am afraid that is what the Hindus of Asind have done. Acted like bully boys on a weaker opponent. That is disgusting

Re:Reply #: 186

Stuka,

Well said. It may interest our Pakistani friends to know that the richest muslim in the muslim world is a Bohra muslim (Wipro`s chairman, Azim Premji)and that the last i heard, Nusli Wadia does not want to do anything with Pakistan despite his grandpa being the founder of that country.

Sridhar

Re:Reply #: 185

nasah,

I have written several explanations answering mainly ylh`s contentions that hindus were brutal against buddhists. You Pakistanis are either not taught correct history or you all indulge in fantasies.

Buddhists power declined in north due to Huns initially (called ``hunas``). They destroyed buddhist religious books, temples and massacred the monks. This happened in 7th century A.D when muslims had just started to invade Sindh. You seem to presume that since Buddhism existed in India and now they are in small numbers they must have been vanquished by the vily hindus,right. This is a typical jehadi thinking.

Yes, hindus did vanquish the buddhists in South, not by physical intimidation but by intellectual arguments with monks of the day. Ever heard of Adi Shankara. No, i did not think so. This great philosopher set out to spread the teachings of essence of hinduism at the age of 13. By the time he died at the age of 32, he had written classic treatises like Brahmasutra, Vivekachudamani, travelled from Kerala where he was born (in a place called `Kaladi`)all the way to Kashmir (where there is a temple founded by him still in existence),talking to monks and pundits en route, establishing the Mathas in 4 corners of India (Dwaraka, Puri, Badrinath and Kanchi)to propogate hinduism which was on decline then. He spent his last years in devotion to god singing many devotional songs of which many survive to this day (one such song is ``Bhaja Govindam``).

Hence, hindus never vanquished buddhists physically. As buddhism declined, the ideas were incorporated into hindu fold. Buddha is considered one of the hindu deities.

``I still cannot forget the statue of Kali with a mala of Budhist monk heads around her neck and an infant Budha under her feet``.

I have been to bodh-gaya and seen no such thing. So stop the slander,you idiot. If you lack the intellectual capacity to discuss without slander or accusation, you have to be very careful of what you say. There is no statue of Kali at the site. The place is in utter state of neglect since Bihar`s Lalloo yadav has no time or money.

Japan i heard has donated a humungous statue of a meditating buddha, which i would like to see some day.

Sridhar

Re:Reply #: 180

``I doubt that these mosques concretely benefit Indian Muslims in any way. And I have to ask – why WERE they built on the sites of temples? If we build mosques shouldn’t we build them on land which other people aren’t already using or land which we buy for this purpose? How can we build mosques on stolen property? That’s NOT to say that two wrongs make a right, but these issues are relevant, if only because a portion of Indian society is raising them. They need to be answered, not ignored``.

Zafar,

You have brought in some interesting points. Please remember, secularism in India is not about Hindu Vs Muslim or Hindu Vs Christian. Secularism is an ideology which is the very basis of our existence. Even if whole of India were inhabited by only hindus (just an assumption)i would still say we ought to be secular. If not, in a hindu India, who is to decide how hindu one should be? Is it going to be Shankaracharya or Bal Thackeray? Who will decide which religious book will be followed (among a plethora of books that exists: Vedas, being the oldest but by no means the only one)? See my point? We will be giving away powers to unscruplous elements who will decide how we dress, how we speak and so on.

Now, India is a multireligious and multiethnic nation and hence this concept becomes all the more important. Once you decide a mosque was built on a temple and needs to be demolished, you open a pandora`s box. There are umpteen number of such mosques. The devilish minds of Bal Thackeray and his ilk can come up with many more names of such mosques. What do we do then? We cannot turn back the clock. We need to make sure the wrongs of the past are not repeated. If demolition of temples by muslim rulers was wrong (they did this with a misplaced zeal,one of serving their religious dictat), repeating similar acts in this day and age is a 1000X wrong. That is why i always will say, Babri Masjid should never have been demolished. It is a black chapter in the history of secular india. Now comes this news of a mosque in Rajasthan having been damaged. This is shocking.

I have always felt that muslim culture is a part of our larger culture. Muslim rulers may have been brutal at times but they finally settled down in the same soil and became a part of that soil. British, on the other hand,in their arrogance never considered themselves part of the country they ruled. They pilfered substantial amounts of money back to their home country. What muslim rulers did to India is miniscule compared to what British did in terms of bringing financial ruin. Hence, my plea in several of my posts for a better understanding between the 2 communities.

regards,

Sridhar

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Evasion will not work - If anybody should need more more evidence that dangerous ideas hostile to Islam are gaining ground in India:

Hindustan times aug 2, 01

``Ayodhya comes to Rajasthan

Vipul Mudgal

WHEN A motivated mob demolished a 16th century mosque in Asind, in Rajasthan’s Bhilwara district last week, parallels were drawn with the Babri masjid demolition in Ayodhya.

The decrepit mosque, comprising a wall about 14 feet wide and 12 feet long with two minarets built on a square chabutara or square, was pulled down on July 27. The roofless mosque, which coexisted with Asind’s Bhoj temple complex for centuries, along with a bigger, neighbouring dargah, was called kalandari because regular namaz was not observed in it.

The demolition came across as a well-planned operation. It started with a mob setting fire to a tent of a Muslim congregation. The Muslim youths immediately blockaded roads. As the administration tried to cool tempers, the mob retreated into the temple complex, only to pull down the mosque in the next few hours. The administration first denied the incident and then raised doubts about the very existence of the mosque.

Such was the state of the administration’s collusion that even the chief minister’s office was misinformed. The administration conceded the point only when Hindustan Times presented irrefutable evidence to prove that the mosque indeed existed where a Hanuman statue was installed. (HT procured a video recording of an earlier function where the small mosque was clearly in the backdrop. It also dug out a reference in the renowned folk historian Rani Laxmi Devi Chundawat’s book describing the temple.)

True, the mosque in Asind did not have the symbolic value of the Babri masjid. But there are clear parallels between the two demolitions. The leaders of the local Hindu organisations, predominantly Gujjars belonging to both the BJP and the Congress, insisted that the chabutara (square) where the minarets and the wall of the mosque once stood, had always been a Hanuman temple. Some VHP activists tried to convince visiting reporters that it was a ‘structure’ (a la Ayodhya) rather than a mosque. Some others bestowed the epithet of “Pir Pachhad Hanuman” (Hanuman who humbled the pir or Muslim saint) upon the statue by putting up a freshly painted signboard.

The situation threatened to turn ugly when some Gujjar youths gave a call for the demolition of the neighbouring dargah, which is much bigger — both in size and importance — than the one pulled down.

In the next 24 hours, truck and jeep loads of people from nearby villages started pouring in.

What goes to the Congress Chief Minister Ashok Gehlot’s credit is that he instinctively went for a political remedy. He got the leaders of the Gujjar community and the members of the temple trust — rather than the police — to remove the signboard and the Hanuman idol.

Where the state government has failed is to give unequivocal signal to the police and bureaucracy that communal trouble has to be met with the most stringent action. Hardly any officer has been shifted in the aftermath of communal troubles in Beawar, Jaipur’s Ramganj area and Nasirabad, despite questionable handling.

The trouble makers of Asind are still at it. A section of Gujjar youths have publicly vowed to target the dargah. HT has come to know that land records have been tampered to show the place of dargah as a clean expanse of irrigable land. Thankfully, older revenue records depict the dargah where it should be.

With the Muslims demanding that the mosque be rebuilt, and many in the Gujjar community adamant on not giving a separate passage for the dargah, Asind’s communal crisis is far from over. Rajasthan has had more than seven instances of communal violence in as many months this year. The writing, for Gehlot, is on the wall.``

Friends, the writing is on wall for anybody with courage to acknowledge it. ``...suffer...outrageous fortune or by opposing, end them`` Prince of Denmark

Indian express

``Idol gone but fear here to stay

Police broker fragile peace with Gujjars but tension lingers

SUKHMANI SINGH

ASIND, AUGUST 1: ON the surface, all’s now quiet on the Asind front. After talks between the police and leaders of the Gujjar community, the Hanuman statue which was plonked over the remains of the 16th century mosque demolished last Friday has been taken away. But it hasn’t gone too far: it now rests at the old Panch Bhaiyyon ka Mandir in the neighbouring Sawai Bhog complex. And the chairperson of the Sawai Bhog Trust, Laxmi Lal Gujjar, is still talking tough: ‘‘The land belongs to us. Let’s see if the Muslims can prove there was a masjid here. We say there was only a wall.’’

In fact, workers at the temple even try and convince you the statue always belonged there. ‘‘Devtaon ko kaun hilaega?,’’(who interferes with the Gods) they say. Laxmi Lal Gujjar goes a step further: ‘‘We never put any statue anywhere. And which mosque are you talking about?’’

The police are actually mopping their foreheads at this great breakthrough, effected after talks on late Tuesday night between Gujjar leaders and the Divisional Commissioner (Ajmer Range) Mukesh Sharma and DIG of Police (Ajmer Range) Umeda Ram Vishnoi. ‘‘We should be thankful to the Gujjars for allowing us to do this,’’ said a police officer. But elsewhere in Asind, locals tell you that until the demolition, Muslims and Hindus lived, prayed and did business with each other in peace. The site of the controversy itself is a good example of this co-existence: it’s a complex of little white temples with a Kalandari mosque in the midst and a dargah tucked away in the rear.

Legend has it that until 20 years ago, Fakir Sakar Khanji from Devgarh would sit in the mosque and recite namaaz, after which he would break bread with the priest at the adjoining temple. And the dargah of the legendary Badiawale Baba — containing the mazaars of Mughal warrior Sultan Shah and Sufi saint Ghaffar Shah — attracts as many Hindus as Muslims, who believe that all mannats prayed for are granted here.

Hira Lal (70), owner of a general store near the main bus-stand, says, ‘‘Even our walls meet each other — the Hindus’ Sheikhon ka Mohalla adjoins the Muslims’ Malion ka Mohalla. Miljhul ke khaane ke reet hai (it’s the custom here to live in co-existence). Even most of our businesses, of trucks etc, are in partnership with each other. We haven’t ever had reason or a desire to fight.’’

Like Hira Lal, shopkeeper Bhanwar Lal too has devout faith in the dargah. Both of them would walk that way every Friday evening to light agarbattis and offer flowers and chaddars. Says Lal, ‘‘I have been attending every Urs for the past 25 years. We have never thought of people as Hindus or Muslims. All that may soon be history. With the overwhelming police presence in Asind today, there is fear that violence may be triggered off at any moment’’.

Many locals seem to think that ‘‘outsiders, dirty politics and fundamental Hindu organisations have deliberately vitiated the cordial atmosphere of the town.’’ For the town’s Muslims — who number 2,000 in a population of 20,000 — fear has replaced any feeling of amity they might have once shared.

Retired patwari Mushtaq Ahmed Shaikh confesses, ‘‘Humne sar pe kafan bandha hua hai, we live in fear and are conscious of a threat. There is no guarantee we will reach home safe every day. But before this, we never had any fight with the Gujjars’’. Locals say the new money flowing into the coffers of the Sawai Bhoj Trust, set up in 1981, played spoiler. In 1994, construction of an ornate mandir at the cost of one crore began in the complex, totally dwarfing the old temples and masjid behind it. And this year, a forbidding brick wall was built around the temples and masjid, blocking the earlier route to the dargah behind. The Gujjars then began objecting to Muslims passing through this area during the annual Urs.

Though they’ve already lost the numbers game, Asind’s Muslims are angered at the demolition of their mosque and are determined to build a new one in its place. Mushtar Ahmed Shaikh (50), president of the Sheikh Samaj and the Private Bus Association, says, ‘‘Even if the government gives us gold equal to the demolished masjid, it won’t be enough. After all, the masjid has been there from time immemorial. We hope and pray that we can build the new mosque in marble.’’ After all, chime in other shopkeepers, ‘‘We too are citizens of India, and the government must protect us.’’

Dear Studebaker:

You did not read the previous posts, did you?

But you write:

``Are you suggesting Nasah ,Dr. Hasan P.Hd. that you are guilty of being a muslim & indian?``

This is exactly the question I am asking Zafar Al Talib if HE does -- when he writes a ``strange`` sentence like this -- ``I doubt that these mosques concretely benefit Indian Muslims in any way.”

So if these mosques are of no ``benefit`` to the Indian Muslims -- ( ``strange`` because it sounds like the Talibani destroyers of the Bamiyani Buddhas)-- should these mosques and Idgaahs be demolished like Babri Masjid -- as an apology from the Indian Muslims to the RSS/BJP parivar -- for the wrongs done to their Hindu brethren 400 years ago?

If that is so then would Zafar Al Talib apologize to the RSS brethren for being -- an Indian Muslim -- a product -- of the very same wrong --done 700 hundred years ago?

Siraj

You misconcieve and misrepresent what this interaction is about - There is no trophy for interacting here - If one is open to inquiry, one may develop a deeper point of view and perhaps even change positions they hold.

Why do you insist on calling people names? Pompous, concieted, hypocrite ( I can`t spell either) and I was beginning to think you take exception to my posts! The way you react to some arguments suggest that it has cut close to the bone - whereas it`s intention is only inquiry - If you have read my posts you will know exactly where I stand on the question of the Pakistanis abandoned in Bangladesh and what I think of the behaviour of Feudals against rural Hindus and Muslims.

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You may not be strange but your statement is indeed strange.

As to your question “why WERE they built on the sites of temples?`` If you ask that question then you question your own existence -- as to what a Zafar Al Talib is doing in a “Hindu” place like India.

You have to ask why the Muslims invaded a purely Hindu country seven hundred years ago? Besides building the mosques over temples -- you have to ask -- why the Muslim invaders converted so many innocent Hindus into so many Zafar Al Talibs.

The answers to all these “Whys” -- is simple – that was the order of the day -- that was the “law of the jungle” –- the “law of conquest” -- in those days .

Arabs invaded Spain -- stayed there 700 hundred years -- turned a barbarian country into Europe’s center of learning in science, math, chemistry, medicine, and philosophy -- they built 6000 mosques in Spain as well – Catholics recaptured the country – massacred thousand of Muslims – reconverted millions into Catholics –- kicked rest of them out of the country – and then converted all six thousand mosques into Churches –- end of the story.

Again all that happened three hundred years ago --not an enlightened age by any means -- with no hard feelings.

In the present Spain and Spanish Sahara nobody is apologizing or asking for the return of their mosques or churches – bygones are bygones.

You want to apologize for the mosques built over temples -- then why don’t you apologize for your own existence as Zafar Al Talib to your aggrieved RSS brethren –- this is not secularism – this is toadyism .

Stuka #196 ``Religion , Nationalism at least to my mind are contradictory to each other. `` Agreed. Guess which one will be still standing when this century is over. Hint: nationalism came with nation-states which had their heyday in 19th century Europe, they provide no natural benefits to mankind (as health systems do, e.g.), and come at a heavy cost (wars, defense budgets, arrogant immigration officials, and vacation resorts paid for by the taxpayer, aka embassies).