The Virgin Bride

Re: #102

your sources for this information are...?

talking pretty big aren`t we? Imam Al-Ghazali didn`t start making a statement about any religious matter until he had memorized 12000 pages of religious literature and assuming you got your information from some website or an article which just like you quoted no sources i can only trust every word you say. i`m fortunately stupid and brainwashed unlike the lucky girls in playboy who get to prance about in thongs i`m stuck here acting like a real human...tch tch tch..i mean you wanna talk about sterotypes boy you go right ahead and call every muslim woman a burqa clad idiot cuz that just makes the rest of the women equally idiotic sluts so u watch what you say cuz u aren`t making very smart statements here and i`m hoping we both know here that those two extremes are equally stupid..but its okay i won`t expect too much of you..don`t wanna pressure the ol gray matter now

Re: #102

your sources for this information are...?

talking pretty big aren`t we? Imam Al-Ghazali didn`t start making a statement about any religious matter until he had memorized 12000 pages of religious literature and assuming you got your information from some website or an article which just like you quoted no sources i can only trust every word you say. i`m fortunately stupid and brainwashed unlike the lucky girls in playboy who get to prance about in thongs and please men, i`m stuck here doing what i want to do..tch tch tch..

poor ol me

Saminashah, Id, Pullu

Without a prosperous economy and without changing our attitudes towards women and their role(s) - we are in for a very rough ride as a peoples

What happens to a woman who does not have independent means of support and finds herself divorced in a society that does not value her labor and in an economy that will not grow - all fingers point towards the ignorant ideas that have taken hold in Pakistan:

from ``Nation`` Aug 11, 01

``Let your mind rule your hearts

Argus

A story in a newspaper made me sad. It may prove thought-provoking to you as well. Here it is.

A college girl sent a letter to a column writer about a problem in her family. Her parents had been living a married life for 25 years. There were quarrels of course, but these were easily patched up. Their life was `fairly happy`. Now that the father is 46 years old he has announced his decision to seek divorce from his wife and marry another woman with whom he had an affair for three years.

Father says he has never loved the Mom. He is still young and wants to live a happy life with the new woman who has given him `true love`. Mom is naturally disturbed. She cries all the day. She still loves the man and wants to get him back. The college girl, eldest of 3 girls, feels devastated at her father`s decision. Both the parents advise her to talk over the matter with younger sisters but she says she can`t do that. She can`t be objective. She has come to hate her father. ``I can`t even mention his name without attaching some abuses to it``, she says.

In response to her letter the column writer has advised her to remain neutral, not to take sides and to wait till she and Mom adjust to the new situation. She is advised to give her Mom every emotional support.

Here the story ends. But how do you feel about it? In a Western society where divorce is so common that spouses seek divorce on such trivial matters as snoring or smoking or foul breath, the column writer`s advice to accept the separation decision calmly may seem `wise` enough. But think what havoc will such a situation play in our society. In Western society 90 percent of women are economically independent. Except in rare cases, divorce and remarrying is no problem for them. They can live alone. This is unthinkable in our society. Most of our women are economically dependent on their husbands.

Even if they are independent they can`t afford to be divorced. In our society divorcees are generally looked down upon. They have problems in remarrying. With chains of children attached to their feet they themselves are unwilling to remarry. Step-children are usually not acceptable to even those men willing to marry a divorced woman. That creates unhappiness in the new family. And if children are small, mothers can`t leave them unprotected.

Even if father takes custody of children they are likely to be neglected in the new home.

Moreover, if they don`t remarry, divorced women have problems of earning, of accommodation, of social attitude. Most of our women have no homes of their own. If they earn and rent a house there is problem of security. In our society lonely women have no protection. Single women have to face ever-new scandals, ever-new problems – economic and social.

And think of the psychological shock the kids of divorced parents suffer. From infancy they have been loving both Mom and Dad. They can`t afford to lose them at any stage. Divorce between parents brings them a sudden psychological shock. They may consciously adjust themselves to new situation but their personality is devastated internally. It may lead to hatred, withdrawal, aggression, revolt and other maladjustment problems in their lives. Such children usually can`t have a normal personality.

Separation or divorce is a very disliked thing religiously, socially or psychologically. It is permissible only in unavoidable circumstances and not on trivial excuses or just love for another man or woman.

So dear readers, learn to live a rational rather than emotional life. Learn to control temptations if they seem to lead you astray. Think rationally, never act on spur of moment. Live for others not for yourself. Think of what devastating shock your wife and children will experience just for your ``doosri shadi ka shauq`` (desire for second marriage). I recall Akbar Allahabadi`s verses: ``shaamat jo ayee uss ki kiya dossra nikah; samjha ke chaar shar` e piyamber mein hain mabah; ayee magar nazar na koee soorat e falah; kaisi buree ye raey thi aur kaisi bud salah; fursat na aik pal usay dee qeel o qaal ne, jeena haraam ker diya iss ik halal ne``. So dads, think twice before you decide to divorce or have a second wife. ``

Id

You are quite right that a good number of attitudes of some scholars are anti women - few will not concede this - this does not mean that their teachings on the whole are meaningless - that would be like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I could not agree with you more that we all need more and continuous education. And believe it or not, we are getting it here, we are participating in Ijtehad, are we not?

I am not suggesting that we become absorbed, quite the opposite - I am suggesting a strategy that while more judicious, will also have the effect of strengthening our youth to withstand the kinds of pressures they experience. To say to them, ``Don`t do this`` or ``Don`t do that``, it is imcumbent upon us to explain what consequences such behaviours will bring about, it is incumbent upon us to give our youth tools to understand the motivations of many behaviours that include drugs and alcohol abuse, teenage sex, and premarital sex. We also owe it to youth to point them towards achievement in academics and sports (Healthy body, healty mind is a slogan we should revive). All this will help us explain to youth, what behaviours are acceptable and rewarded and which behaviours and attitudes to avoid and why and we can then offer that these are principals of our religious faith as well. In this way we will be living our faith? Are you following me? That`s what it will all boil down - what does it mean to be a Muslim? Our choices are keep the same ignorant attitudes and our ethical and moral sense in coma or to educate ourselves and others, to engage in intellectual inquiry, to value those Muslim values that enable us to actually live as Muslims - see Muslims are not supposed to live cut off from the world but as a part of the world - but this will not mean just any other part, no Sir, it will mean being aware of the world and living in it as Muslims - true Jihad -Living in a world of temptation, vice and a huge range of choices - only in such a world can a Muslim, actually live like a Muslim. If the Muslim is the power of Light in Darkness, what will he or she be if there was no darkness? how would that light have meaning? Which is why our lives must be full of choices - only by making choices are we then living or choosing to live as Muslims.

Sorry, I`m ranting - I don`t mean to give you the impression that I know very much about our faith or have some learning - I don`t, but this is kind of basic, I think.

When a poor bride fails to bring lottery ticket dowry ,she conveniently put to death & written off as committed suicide,WHEN A HINDU GIRL MARRIES A MUSLIM BOY ,SHE ALSO SETS HERSELF TO FIRE OF ALL PLACESES COMMUNALIST ORGANIZATION HINDU MAHASABHA OFFICE !!

Do i look like stupid or the indians are owefully dumb.My 10 yr old brother ,hardy boys playing slueth could solve this murder in one afternoon play ,but then why the country of Kiran Bedi ,Indira Gandhi,Sonia Gandhi Priyanka & Maneka Gandhi exist in a schizophrenic state of women movement when Arundhati Roy celebrated by the world still remains gagged very much like Bharti Barot ,yet equal the world in parrot like answer at the miss universe /world pageant.To fool even the less than intelligent celebrity judges.



indya.com News brought to you by



INDIA





Hindu girl, 19, commits suicide after marrying Muslim

Bharti Barot, a 19-year-old girl who had embraced Islam to get married to one Salim Shaikh from the same area in Sabarmati of Ahmedabad, reportedly set herself ablaze at the Hindu Mahasabha office in the city`s Raipur area on Thursday afternoon.

But mystery shrouds her death, as police are confused about how Bharti managed to get kerosene at the Hindu Mahasabha office, even as Mahasabha activists including President Dashrath Patel were present at the time.

Even her parents, who had taken Bharti to the Mahasabha for ``counselling``, pleaded ignorance about her committing suicide.

Bharti was in love with Salim, who hails from the Bakra Mandi area of Sabarmati, for the last few years, despite strong objection from her parents.

She was apparently tortured mentally and physically several times by her parents for moving around with Salim, but to no avail.

On July 11, she eloped with Salim without saying anything to her parents, converted to Islam and got married in a local mosque before finally registering the marriage in a city court.

The very next day, she sent their marriage documents to her parents by post, while Salim did the same.

``On July 12, her father Kanubhai Barot lodged a complaint of illegal confinement against Salim with us and we started search operations,`` said Inspector of Sabarmati police station, P S Mehra.

She was found on August 6 and police took her to Sabarmati police station from where she was sent to the Women`s Home in Odhav, run by the state government.

``But surprisingly, her parents managed to get her from the Home without any instructions from us or any court order, which is something queer,`` Mehra said.

Bharti was then brought to the Hindu Mahasabha office in Raipur by her parents for a ``purification`` (Shuddhikaran) ceremony that was supposed to take place on Thursday afternoon in the presence of Mahasabha activists and Dashrath Patel.

``Before the function, she was asked by Dashrath to take a bath in the Mahasabha office bathroom, where she ultimately set herself ablaze,`` said DCP (zone-III), R D Makadiya.

When asked about how Bharti had managed to get kerosene and matchsticks in the bathroom of the Mahasabha office, Makadiya only said: ``We have to check.``

Local residents, however, said they did not hear any screaming or smell anything burning. Police are suspicious as the area where the Mahasabha office is located is very crowded.

``We will find out after the forensic examination and post mortem report,`` said Makadiya.

Meanwhile, her father, Kanubhai, known as a VHP activist, showed no remorse over the incident. ``She did it as per her own will,`` he said.

Secretary of VHP, Karnavati city, Jaideep Patel said: ``Perhaps she committed suicide because of tortures by the Muslim boy and his friends. Muslims here have been creating lot of problems with Hindu girls.``

But, he declined from adding more about the incident, saying: ``We are acquiring details.``

Khadia police has also registered a case following the ``suicide``, city police sources said. The Commissioner of Police, P C Pande, also visited the spot on Thursday evening.

The dead body of the victim has been sent for post mortem, police sources said.

Aiesha #112

You can`t hide sex behind a veil like you can a face. Don`t quote those proverbial

Bollywood lines like, ``tumhari koi maan-behan nahin hai kya?``

It changes nothing. If humans have to reproduce, they must enjoy sex. If it is as necessary then there can be nothing wrong about it. You don`t need to read holy books to confirm them.

Why do you keep quoting what Islam actually gives to women? The whole universe knows how women are treated in Muslim countries. If muslims were to be believed, Islam is the most mis-interpreted religion. I wonder why?

Madam, unless you realise and accept that there are problems, there will not be any hope.

Don`t mistake religion and social customs. There are problems with customs against Hindu women too.Such practices are being realised and fought with. But they are not being shoved under the

garbage of religious interpretations. God has given a head on every shoulder. It doesn`t

require a prophet or an incarnation to see that somethings are wrong, terribly wrong and that customs must change with time. Have you ever wondered how much say a woman has in religious matters of any religion?

While a man learns the first lessons of humanity from his mother.

And yes, sex is to be enjoyed. Men do it, why do they stop you from the same.

Ask your beardos, do they have an answer besides, ``quotes``? Wake up girl, you are brainwashed like millions of others. Take a ticket to Rio.

And don`t quote...Think.

Pullu

Nafisa loved the article. Touched on several interesting points specific to our community and also some general ones. Life does loop a full circle doesn`t it.

aeisha :

The posts Gowardhan wrote are unfortunately true. I have heard about these things even from other muslims. I am sorry to say but Imam Ghazalis interpretations are extremely misogynst.

I will give you an example. I once ran in to a bunch of these police men (who hasnt living in khi), and as the conversations happened, one of the inspectors mentioned that ``Women are nothing but a shoe heel of a man`` (in urdu.. sounds worse). And this he gives an explanation, that in islam thats the status of women. Now we all know that this isnt true. But I have to question where the picked this crap from. If scholars like Imam Ghazali will write such stuf, and if people actually beleive him, then I am sorry but there is a flaw there.

In anycase, ignore gowardhans nasty comments, but pay attention to the writings. It will give you another aspect of the entire issue.

hobbyty :

If you read my above post to Aeisha, it shows wht kind of mentality is being developed. We all want a progressive Islamic nations, but some thoughts of the Islamic scholars are quite anti women. We need to deal with them first. And for that we need to look at the Quran instead of these preachings of scholars.

But our fundamentalists... well what can I say... education is probably the best weapon against them.

As for the other point, about blaming ourselves and progression of men towards better attitudes, again the answer is in education. Revolutions dont happen in an instant, they take years. The upper strata is become more liberal, but in this liberization, they are also forgetting what distinguishes us from the west. I dont want for us to be assimilated into the global western culture, like say the indian middle class. I dont want us to be a pawn in the consumerism of the west.

Strict checks need to be in place.

Regrads

SaminaShah

Hi Samina,

I take your point, but don`t you think it should be a woman who brings these points out? Because again, we will be in a position where Pakistani Women will end up taking a back seat in promoting ideas about what it means to be a woman in Pakistan, in the way Islamic thinking and culture are presented and abused?

Id

I don`t think the problem is the lower strata of society, but the the upper strata. Generally speaking, attitudes in the lower strata of society are reflective of those operating in the upper strata of society.

Yes, Kids today are different, they will always be different from persons who are no longer kids. Sex is nothing new to any of us, there a more than a billion persons in Pakistan, India, bangldesh, Nepal and Lanka - so I don`t think this is anything new - what needs to be new is a reexamination of our intellectual framework and our responses to new trends in our society.

Many amongst us want to turn away from clearly harmful, oppressive attitudes towards women - they want to turn away from the fact that teenagers want to be like other teenagers everywhere - An ignorant attitude has taken hold in Pakistan - by not being open, by not examining global trends, by not discussing it - we create an environment where young individuals have to fashion their own responses to such trends - Blame is for the Western media or anything outside of us, the blame is on us for giving credence to ideas that suggest that we should become oppressive, that men and women have nothing in common except sex, that all humanity is nothing but sex, sex! sex!, sex! That we should turn away from the world - what then should our response be?

First we should rexamine our attitudes and make corrections - The oppression of anyone is UnIslamic - It demeans all of us as Muslims if we should tolerate women or any other persons, living in fear, living unfullfilled lives - You don`t want that for your sisters, your mother - why should we accept it for any other woman? are they less God`s own? And is it not the ultimate insult that Pakistani men can never be the equal of women? Yes, that is the framework - not the equality of women to men, but of men to women - not the liberation of women, but of men - liberation from pettyness, liberation of feelings of inadequacy, liberation from attitudes that mystify sex, more than what is inherent in that experience. Liberation to live as Muslim.

Yes, we need to rethink what we are doing, how we are thinking. To a very large degree I think this has begun - I am very hopeful on this score.

It has taken several decades of ignorance to bring us to this stage but it will take less time to remedy this ignorance - this Jaihallat.

Some may construe my remarks to mean that we abandon our morality and our ethics - nothing could be further from the truth. I suggest we reexamine our ethics - The source, the Quran, religious teachings and supporting sciences - This is not to suggest that there are no other sources, but an acknowledgment that Islam has a primacy in the lives of the majority of Pakistanis - Our ethics, at present, cannot support our morality. We need to expose our ethics to the light to Islam and present these concepts to society. Equality of personhood, respect for personhood, equality of opportunity, the benefit to the society and individual of healthy, normal attitudes about sex, the requirement of stable and healthy families and to reiterate that all persons are linked to God and that God sees Mercy and Compassion as having primacy in relations between all persons and the divine.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Karim Shankar #101

: ) Thats me allritgh, am a firm believer in 2+2=10

``that was the sound of me getting defensive``

no need - just hop on the bandwagon!!

``otherwise, madam, hegidiya?``

weeehhlll this is a pleasant surprise!!

naanu channageidiney! neenu??

aicha

Poop lover AeishA

Do you enjoy being told by your `great scholar` that you should stay at home, get on with your spinning, not go out often, not be well-informed (here you follow your leader to the letter), not communicate with your neighbors, only visit

them when absolutely necessary......your sole worry should be your virtue (what virtue?), your home, your prayers and your fast.....you should be clean and ready to satisfy your man`s sexual needs at any moment?

Are you also punished in eighteen different ways? Sounds like sado-masochist fancy land to me.

HA HA HA HA HA HA

Can you do to this al-misogynist what Hindu women have done to Manu - declare him a total fool and evil?

Poop lover, you cant because Muslim men have brainwashed you into loving, defending and quoting these evil fools, not opposing them. You and your sexually pleased Islamic husband will brainwash your innocent defenceless daughters similarly. Even a hundred years after today the condition of `faithful` Muslim women will remain as pitiable as it is today.

Neptune

You have not yet seen what Aamir`s intelligence can do. Just keep watching him :-)

AeishA 103

Poop lover Aeisha,

You produce the standard copy and paste from any Islamic website. Well done. Proved Muslim women are better off than Hindu women. Happy?

There is only one fly in your baby ointment here, poop lover.

Hindus dont quote any of the stuff you say is Hindu.

You continue to quote fools. These fools are your ``great scholars``.

Who is more foolish now? Besides, what are you doing talking to strangers, al-this and al-that follower? Shouldnt you be home spinning and cleaning your private parts for your would-be`s gratification?

AAmir #93

[Seeing the number of female interactors go from one Sadna ? to now aicha,Saminashah,Neptune,Anny (poor girl hope she is better) Binnifer,Farzana,Scout,Bijli ,Mona.,Zahra,.....]

Dear Mr Poirot, pray which moment of enlightenment gave you this insight? Curious to find out. Do you often come across women called Neptune?

Aeisha

Is this sex instructor Al-Ghazali the same al Ghazali who wrote that the Muslim woman should stay at home and get on with her spinning, she should not go out often, she must not be well-informed, nor must she be communicative with her neighbours and only visit them when absolutely necessary ... her sole worry should be her virtue, her home as well as her prayers and her fast ... she should be clean and ready to satisfy her husband`s sexual needs at any moment?

This al-Ghazali goes on to say that Allah has punished women in eighteen separate ways, including:



lesser share in inheritances

liability for divorce but inability to initiate divorce

seclusion

exclusion from many religious rituals and ceremonies

disqualification for positions as rulers and judges

menstruation

pregnancy

childbirth

You people, even women, are still quoting such fools. Such is the power of complete brainwashing.