The Virgin Bride

Nasah

Well done! More support of the observation that class and socioeconomics do play a role in the particular brand of misogyny in certain attitudes.

Dear Samina

Yes, Hafizurraman’s column is very interesting in the fact that it spans the two extremes – one, in which a woman asks a man -- for sex -- ‘‘will you sleep with me” – and the other in which a man will put to sleep a woman -- for sex -- and call it ``honor killing``.

The attitude of the misogynist Pir Sahib is aptly described by Daag Dehlvi in one of his sassiest couplets -- that goes like this:

Achchee soorut bhi keya booree shai hai

Jis ne dali buree nazar dali

For the Pir Sahib it is not HIS ‘buree nazar’ that is at fault -- it is the ‘achchee soorut’ that is really the culprit . It is not his own FEAR of his own “shahwani khashitaat” that is at fault – it is the fault of the woman that “causes” him to have those wet dreams.

Sooo.

It is the woman that must be punished. It is the woman who must be put to “house arrest” with blackened windows – it is the woman who must walk with a sac over her head – it is the woman who must wrap herself in a chador – it is the woman who must be treated like an untouchable -- it is never -- the misologist, -- the misogynist -- Pir Sahib who should deal with his sexuality by putting the “ainuk” of self analysis over his lecherous eyes.



As to why the poor Pir Sahib does not consider the ‘mazdoorni” or rural women working in the fields as “aurut`` worthy of the sac – because – they are “working women” -- economic partners of men – not Maulana’s “gundey” sex toys.

Isn’t ironic that -- the “lower class” working mazdoor women and -- the “backward” rural field-working women -- of India and Pakistan -- enjoy almost the same freedoms -- that the emancipated women are enjoying all over the Western world

All this chador business and the morality torture -- is reserved for mostly the unfortunate middle class urban women of the subcontinent.

Aeisha

Actually, I must apologise for my initial reaction to your post-I was unprepared for it. I think you made some excellent points in it re: female sexuality. Very practical and no nonsense.

Zafar Bhi

I`m trying to develop my sense of humor-I think easy shots are the white belt of the sport. My husband, who has a great sense of humor, has commented on my approach: I`ll make a quip, then giggle for several minutes, and then comment (about my own quip), ``That was funny!`` He is often speechless at this process.

Bapu #66

[[In ideal world ,rationally,logically,pragmatically,equitably,justifiably ,it shouldn`t ,but why the food suddenly becomes `not so deliscious & remarkable that it was a leftover from another plate`]]

Well that is exactly my point. I know that pre-marital relationships are being demonised. What I am trying to say is that I don`t find anything logical about this negative image.

I am trying to draw a distinction between pre-marriage liaisons and cheating on an existing spouse. The latter is a reasonable cause for the blood to boil, but the earlier is not.

[[Serves them right ,if everyone in your company are screwing around..]]

I never said that. Please learn the distinction between `some` and `all`. In any case, the point you raise is irrelevant.

[[.. from 13 (girls) &i5 (boys).We call them American stastics of 50% non virgins in junior high of schools here .Above 50% of mothers are raising kids as single parents too.]]

Again, irrelevant. The issue was never WHEN one should start having sex. The question is WHETHER to have pre-marital sex.

[[I am sure you never meant happy ever after with the SAME man or woman.]]

Why not?

[[Practically 90% of American divorce by the end of 2o yrs of marriage most 50% do within 2 years of lavish fairy tale marriages .]]

Yet again, irrelevant. Most of the divorces you refer to happen due to incompatibility, violence or extra-marital affairs. NOT because one spouse finds out what the other did before marriage.

hobbyty

As usual, you`ve come through! A couple of points:

1. In terms of the issues that you have expressed interest in discussing-perhaps someone (yourself, for ex.) can write an article specifically focusing on the those points.

2. It might be helpful to remember that the cyberspace harbors all of us,-maybe theres a way to discuss these matters that children don`t have access to. This is a family cybermag, as far as I know. Maybe you can investigate this at Chowk.

3. I am going to find the book (Worlds of Pain)that you recommended- I just finished a grueling, wonderful summer course! The second book sounds interesting. Have you read any Nawal el Sadaawi? If you havent, check out her fiction and essays.

4. I think there are some cultural/social similarities between Ireland and Pakistan, esp. Catholic culture in Ireland.

5. ``self flattering cow``! I can see the scene in my mind`s eye...lol

#70

Abysmal

``Our parents were ecstatic, no one had any clue about our secret. He gave me a vibrator as a `moo-dikhai` gift,``

What ?you suffer from chronic back pain?& why haven`t you used it?Are talking of the same vibrator ?He is cheap woman,mode khai normally cost 3000$ diamond instead of 30-50$ vibrators!

Got to read this article later than I intended to. But must say that I throughly enjoyed it. Got some perverted pleasure out of the fate of that guy in the end.

Mona

Reply Saminashah #75

I believe that was the winning goal.

:-(

Hunger for attention and jealousy are a terrible scourge for the dull and boring.

Abysimal,

Lively piece of writing. It somewhat reminds me of the movie The Wedding Banquet. Has any one seen it?

Bijili,

No harm done. Samina, Samia, Amina, potato, tomato...I fear that I will need to develop a cybername that`s unmistakeable. Libel suits? Do Sadna and Ylh know about this possible avenue of recourse? Just joking...please don`t flood us with posts yhl... :-0

As for Zafar Sahib, I am afraid youre right; he and I both admire him..

Bijili,

No harm done. Samina, Samia, Amina, potato, tomato...I fear that I will need to develop a cybername that`s unmistakeable. Libel suits? Do Sadna and Ylh know about this possible avenue of recourse? Just joking...please don`t flood us with posts yhl...

As for Zafar Sahib, I am afraid youre right; he and I both admire him..

Saminashah

Dear Samina,

Nasah beat me to the it as I had prepared the article for inclusion on this board - I think it is very relevent. Also, I goofed and my post ended up 3 times - apologies to all

I`m only afraid that as usual we will end up discussing personalities and not the issues here, sadly. Already this has begun.

About the article, notice Pakistani treatment of ``Aklaqiyaat`` - and it`s unique relevence to sex (in Pakistan only).

As we discussed earlier, this is more masculine insecurity, pretending to be sanctioned by Islam, an instrument of control, of power.

Of the unique taboo of not shaking hands with women - Can one get any more ignorant? sex by osmosis? Ah yes, but, is it good sex?, really now! I experienced this myself when an acquaintance introduced me to his second wife, I put my hand forward to greet her, she looked away - the self flattering cow. It was all very awkward - and to imagine that some are justifing such behaviour as Islamic, to me, is revolting.

Dancing, social mingling, a general attitude that refuses to infuse more sexual meaning into the normal sexual tension between the sexes, can only lead to normal, healthy persons, with healthy attitudes about others of both sexes. Look around in Pakistan and you will see a kind of sick behaviour finding acceptance in society - a society, more and more of men - of hostility towards women - very unhealthy! They saw the cat who does not get to eat any meat dreams of...

I guess you know this saying as well - all very unhealthy!

``Gori`` ? Is this not he most demeaning thing you have heard? When will we stop refering to persons and civilizations by a color or complexion? When? It`s been hundreds of years that this rubbish as set into our minds - Varna - pure evil! designed

so that we devalue ourselves and value others ideas about what beauty is - sheer evil! and those poor others who may not be entirely aware that while we value them in such a way, we also despise the them and hate the fact that we do value them - Evil! - not unhealthy but Evil!

This was just so good a piece and Ms. Haji is an artist worthy of admiration, not only for her crafting skills but also her courage. The attitudes and circumstances she presents are part of our experiences, why deny them, why shy away as if children - lets confront these shameful attitudes. I find it sad that we can discuss the prejudices of others towards us, but show little inclination to challenge some of our own attitudes, especially such ignornat attitudes?

``Whore`` is especially demeaning and is pure aggression - even as it is desirable - such freedom? to make mistakes, to enjoy your body, or someone else`s body - that`s right she is a whore cuz she will make with everyone but you - No she is not also God`s own unique creation and no, her soul is not connected with God. really?

In such attitudes, to my way of thinking, we are neither true to our faith, to ourselves or our societies. It`s amazing how little conversation about such attitudes we have, even as we imagine ourselves adults. What really kills me is that this kind of ignorance is justified as an aspect of our religious faith, instead of a mask of our sexual insecurities.

Samina, if you get a chance, please read `` Saints, Scholars and Schizophrenics - Mental Illness in Rural Ireland`` by Nancy Schper-Hughes

You will be amazed that the kind of shying away from a frank and mature discussion as we witness on this board - is studied by the author in rural Ireland, and results from the lack of interaction with the opposite sex and is linked to mental illness and that Ireland used to lead the world in such illness before prosperity came back to it`s shores. I know you are sick of my reading suggestions - but you will like this book - by the way did you ever get a chance to read that Lilian Rubin Book - ``Worlds of Pain? What did you think ?

Very good article. I wonder why desis are so touchy about discussing sex in public. Some hiiden sense of guilt... or some lurking fear of their incompetence. We need more such articles. And that hypocricy regarding sex has to go. Are you listening 40-50 somethings?

tahmed and dulla-bhatti

Tumm jugg jugg jiyo maharaaj

humm toree nagarya mein aaye.

thanks guys.

AeishA #60,

You could have spared us the lesson about the `birds and the bees` Islamic style.