The Virgin Bride

Re:Reply #: 196

hobbyty,

Let us talk about the killing fields of Karachi or why Jehad is not being condemned by Pakistanis. When your country becomes secular, we can talk why India is not as secular as you would like it to be. Remember the old adage ``practise before you preach``.

sridhar

UPMAN :

Where do I even begin? Let me just say that you post a powerful arguement.

Let me first deal with the specifics:

1. Yes ``Hindutva`` was coined by Veer Savarker, member of the Hindu Mahasabha, and not a member of the RSS. However, that is neither here nor there. Fact remains, Narayan Apte, a co-accused was an RSS member. Godse too was an RSS sympathizer. I am not sure if he was a member or not.

2. The VHP/ Bajrang Dal cannot call itself political organizations because of Indian laws. However, Katiyar etc, do stand and win elections as BJP/independants. Again, the VHP has been quite upfront about its political ambitions, whereas the RSS actively shuns politics. Anyone person standing for election, cannot be an office bearer of the RSS, though he /she may continue to remain sympathisers

3. Well, from what I know, the RSS and the VHP / Bajrang Dal do not have transfers etc. I guess we have different opinions on that.

4. Inclusive Hinduism. Ok, this is going to be a tough one. See, Gandhi`s vision of inclusive Hinduism was religious in nature, whereas the RSS looks at Hindutva as a cultural and national identity and NOT a religion.

In any case, Gandhi was not, and never will be an RSS icon. This has nothing to do with Gandhi`s vision, but has everything to do with his interference in National Interest. I recommend that you read Manohar Moolgavkar`s book, ``The Men who Killed Gandhi``. The Gandhi assasination was not an RSS conspiracy, though the conspirators were certainly RSS members/sympathizers.

It is a historical fact that Gandhi, at the time of his death was a hugely unpopular person. Every day, he would sit at Birla house giving bhashans, and the refugees would come and openly abuse him. Madanlal Pahwa, a Punjabi refugee involved in the plot to kill Gandhi had no links to the RSS. In any case, I have no doubt that sweets were distributed upon Gandhi`s death. This is not because of something as profound as a difference in vision, but because of Gandhi`s sell out of India, at the time of partition.

5. ``Choice of Hindu Nationalism as Indian Nationalism`` Thrust, Parry and Cut. All said and done this is where you get me.

Thee RSS claims that ``Hindu`` is just a name for the people of Hind. I personally feel that it is a very unfortunate choice of words because it will alienate non Hindu minorities I am not going to defend what I myself am not comfortable with. But like I said to HobbyTy, some things I will explain, and not defend. Similarly, the economic policies of the RSS are downright dangerous for India.

I am not a fervent chaddiwala ;) and will not defend every aspect of RSS but neither will I condemn every aspect of the organization. Unless ofcourse, events prove me wrong. There are no holy cows, not even the RSS

Stuka,

The ``roits`` of Moradabad in the 80`s were nothing more than one sided massacre of Muslim residents. ``Countering`` SIMI is a bit of a stretch.

I have seen RSS pamphlets that list hinduunity as an affiliated website. I can mail you one if you want?

Upman#194

``...everybody is trying to find common ground and live amicably, which is a more instinctive human desire than some remote religious doctrine...actually fundamental alterations in interpreting that doctrine itself (`itjehad` if you will) occur as a result of secular living, as evidenced by the string of apologies the Vatican has been issuing and indeed the near-revolutionary advice to catholics from the Pope in Delhi- `to take from indigenous systems of belief those spiritual ideas that are compatible with one`s faith`...``

Good post!

Stuka # 198:

..as much as i refute hobbyty`s allegations that india is becoming hindu chauvinist, i am aware of the danger of hindutva...and its not because of Shiv sena or Bajrang Dal or even VHP, its because of the RSS...the RSS with its aura of profundity and intellectualism and a cultivated martyrdom image is the real poison, and not some thugs which the others are...RSS seeks to impart respectability to its parochial, insidious philosophy and let the goons of bajrang dal and VHP manage the dirty tricks dept...it couches the pernicious ideas that is its basis in language of inclusiveness and high philosophy..it spreads partial lies, generalisations and a black-and-white history aimed at creating a sense of victimisation in the minds of average hindu..and this is an emotion so tempting that so much of middle-class india then turns a blind eye when they peddle outrageous ideas as was the Babri Masjid issue...and the danger is that otherwise reasonable people like you are falling for it..

..some specifics:

1/ the word hindutva was coined by `veer` Savarkar, and i`m not sure if he was a member of the RSS (he was one of the accused in the planning of Gandhi`s assassination)

2/ i dont think the VHP calls itself a political organization...actually it cannot..

3/ ``The VHP and the Bajrang Dal are NOT synonymous with RSS as far as ideology is concerned. Their vision of Hindutva is far more exclusive than that of the RSS. There have been issue based alliances between the RSS and the VHP, the Babri Masjid being case in point, but they remain distinct in ideology and outlook.``

..actually they are the same, with inter-transfered workers and organizers...its just that the RSS doesnt want to get its name sullied by the kind of work its instincts demand, so these guys get to do that job..whereas our boudhiks and chintaks will work on giving an intellectual spin to it and if its way too gone for that, completely dissociate from it...this is a trick the RSS has mastered to perfection- right from its policy of not having membership records from the time it was RSSS- which enabled it to get away when Godse murdered Gandhi..

i have a couple of Qs:

1/ if RSS is only about inclusive Hinduism, where is it that it differs from Gandhi`s Hinduism?..pl. do not tell me that the RSS now has Gandhi as an icon, Gandhi visited Nagpur etc. details...these are examples of its highly sophisticated PR that seeks to hide its essential ugliness..it is no secret how the RSS actually feels about Gandhi, so much so that one of their co-ideologues had to MURDER him!...and as Patel wrote to them at the time of their first ban `..i have CID reports with

me which show that sweets were distributed and celebrations undertaken when news of gandhiji`s assassination was received`

2/ is its stress on Hindu nationalism as Indian nationalism just a preference for words (interesting since Hindu, i think is essentially a persian word) or does it have some other motive?

...the fact remains that inspite of repeated highlights by pro-RSS columnists about how it `has survived several bans throughout its history` and `selflessly worked for earthquake relief in Gujarat` etc. spins, the bigoted nature of its conception and existence can not be erased, even if concealed...

Nasah

excellent! Now if you replace the word Islamism with secularism :

It`s much cheaper and faster to hop on the bus of Islamism with others -- than to goad, kick and ride the ``dynamic`` donkey of secularism to take you to places in the 21st entury -- a donkey is a donkey.

Is this simplified?

Khare Eesaa agur ba makka rawad

chooN beayed hanooz khur bashad

Indeed, one of the main reasons scholars repeated call for strengthened institutions in Islamia, is the realization that Islam is not institutionalized - The ideas of Soroush and Al-Ghannouchi can help focus how to incorporate values that most Muslims agree are a necessary requirement for civic society, Representative government, freedom of conscience and confession and personal liberty, within a context that a majority of Muslims will accept easily.

Now you, Hamidm, gohwardan, Zafar, et al - may be absoluteley right that these ideas are hooey - and while to do not object that those who disagree should register an objection, I do wonder how values of tolerance for differing opinions seem not to have taken hold amongst our ``secular`` zealots? What manner of secularism is this that does not tolerate differing ideas? That will not acknowledge the context within which the ideas of Soroush and Al-Ghannouchi may find a following?

Kai entor aziz - Ke khar ham shodeem? Kaafe na boud: Bigot, Hypocrite, shameless? Khar ham shodeem? Alhamdu lilah, ke shodeh eem Khar e khodah.

Amigo, you give us no chance, you recognize not our sincerety, you reject our quest for meaning, our scholarship and intellect, our understanding of the world and the Divine - and then accuse us of bigotry? The least I think persons whose views differ can do is to at least tolerate each others point of view. Don`t you agree?

Wow, what a well written short story that is. I can completely understand and felt as though I was a part of the story as it unraveled. The paralles between Pakistan and the US is amazing but there is some truth to you.

I will be looking forwards to more stories from you!

Dear Hobbyty:

If I may simplify the discussion.

It`s much cheaper and faster to hop on the bus of secularism with others -- than to goad, kick and ride the ``dynamic`` donkey of Islamism to take you to places in the 21st entury -- despite Saroush and Al Ganoushi intellectual gymnastics -- ie hogwash -- a donkey is a donkey.

Khare Eesaa agur ba makka rawad

chooN beayed hanooz khur bashad

HobbyTy / Govardhan/ Anyone else who is interested:

Hindutva is a bandwagon that many are jumping on. Therefore, it would be unfair for you to pick up a quote from any random website and present it as a ``Postion of Hindutva``.

I have seen a website called HinduUnity, which claims to speak for Hindutva, and it is run by a 30 year old from Queens. You do my nation and religion a great disservice, if you are going to take that as a synonym of Hindutva.

The casual observer makes the mistake of tying in 4 Seperate organizations as one with a common agenda. The 4 organizations are

1. Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh

2. Vishwa Hindu Parishad

3. Bajrang Dal

4. Shiv Sena

Out of the 4 above mentioned, the Shiv Sena is completely seperate. The RSS is the original and only proponent of Hindutva as a nationalist and cultural ideology. The BJP and its earlier incarnation, the BJS (Bharatiya Jan Sangh) are the political wings of the RSS. Since the RSS is non-political, the BJP gets its ideological moorings from the RSS. However, as you may be aware if you keep up with current events in India, the BJP cannot take RSS support for granted. The difference in economic policy is one example of the RSS and BJP adopting varied policies. Vajpayee, Advani, Malkani, Govindacharya are all Swayamsevaks. The RSS was banned multiple times by the Congress government, because of its association with Veer Savarkar, Godse etc. But it has always survived. There is no equivilant organization of the RSS in the world, because it is Non Political, Nationalist and Inclusive. Originally, it was modelled on the basis of the Italian Black Shirts, but was modified for Indian requirements.

The VHP and its youth wing, the Bajrang Dal are relatively late entrants. Unlike the RSS, the VHP is a religious and a political orgainzation. In that sense, it is similar to the JUI of Pakistan. The Bajrang Dal is the Youth based wing of the VHP and was originally based on urban gang lines. It came into being to counter the Muslim Adam Sena and SIMI after the riots in Moradabad, in 1980. Due to political patronage it has become a large organization.

The VHP and the Bajrang Dal are NOT synonymous with RSS as far as ideology is concerned. Their vision of Hindutva is far more exclusive than that of the RSS. There have been issue based alliances between the RSS and the VHP, the Babri Masjid being case in point, but they remain distinct in ideology and outlook.

The Shiv Sena is a criminal enterprise masquerading as a political movement. Bal Thackery and his son Udhav and Nephew Raj Thackeray are the desi versions of Saddam and his son Udai. Originally a Marathi Chauvinist party, with anti-south Indian overtones, it became Anti Muslim, only to get votes. In the Mumbai riots of 1991-92, Muslim business houses like Dawood Shoes etc paid major money to the Shiv Sena and were spared, whereas Hindus from UP and Bihar had their chawls destroyed. A clear cut example of ideology being a poor second to money.

As far as quotes are concerned, yes I will be happy to explain anything that an RSS ideologue has said. The VHP and Bajrang Dal, I do not agree with their vision and secondly, they are not the ones in power. The federal funding of education you talk about has nothing to do with the VHP and Bajrang Dal. The Shiv Sena, well that`s like my asking you to explain the Karachi underworld.

Hoe this helps...

Upman, Gohwardan, Zafar

Upman Gohwardan

You pose the questions, You chose the content of the answers! You summarize the answers!, you come to conclusions not warranted by the answers - And you are fair and open to inquiry? - You Indian nationalist, sorry, secularist are a very fair bunch.

Where is my champion, Zafar - He of ethical responsibility? Where is Dehko na Neptune, Dehko?

With marxists and so called ``secularists`` - they seem to have no ethics. That is just a club to use against those of us who seek to find answers in our religious faiths. That in itself is anathema, or as my champion says, Hateful.

Upman, Hindutva is political ideology. My beef with it is very specific. It relates to the creation of a false history and the the hostility within that history to Islam and the resulting hostility towards Muslims. I am least concerned about any other aspect. If it unites Indians , if it instills them with pride - great - I question why does it have to be at the expense of Islam and Muslims - which is of course a bigotted, hyporitical, shameless, etc position, yes, I know.

``Secularists`` amongst will have to confront these ideas by themselves - Afterall the Hindutvavadis have their own ideas about secularists - we both know that, don`t we?

On why secularism is superior - accomodation of all religions - that sounds fair but which religion has abdicated tolerance? - but You and I both know that tolerance is something that is missing in India - before you scoop up the mud in both fists - Yes it is a problem in Pakistan - but remember the topic of the conversation was ideas hostile to Islam and Muslims within Hindutva ideology - If you were to argue that even more backward and hostile ideas have taken hold in section of Pakistani society - I would agree - all Chowk would agree, a majority of Pakistanis would agree.

On his Holiness, The Papa - being tied at the stake and the notion that Catholicism is driven by India centric views - Wake up! grow up!

The important question to pose is why are Indians (generally Hindus) in such large numbers open to the message of conversion? Your statement about the advice given to His Holiness should be viewed in the light of how the Church can best make in roads in a highly nationalistic and hostic atmosphere.

Indians are proud of their secularism - congratulations. Now, how many Indians know what that means? IS that why Hindutva ideology has gained ground? Before you object - Yes there are some Indians who understand that secularism may provide an more elaritarian society - but the question remains, how will an Egalitarian society evolve if notions hostile to another section of society are being spread within that society?

You see Upman, secularism is itself a religion and in India, it is a intolerant religion - especially the Indian version - The Indian version is all about Hindu nationalism - will this change if Congress were in power - I don`t believe it will - but it may change, it certainly will not change as long as the BJP and it`s ideological allies are in power. Indian secularism will brook no opposition from any quarter, it will not acknowledge that others have the right to organize themselves according to ideas they find as inspirational - that is the core of the hostility of so many ``secular`` Indians to the idea of Pakistan. It is offensive to them that anyone else will choose to organize themselves in ways different from those that the Indian secularist has prescribed.

Hobbyty

Try to understand what upman7626 193 is saying. If someone asked RSS VHP Shiv Sena ideologues about what you acuse them of, they will give answers *identical * to ones you gave. They also believe they are only doing good for their community. They will protest strongly the charge that they are against Muslims or Christians and other minorities.

Try to understand similarity between you and them. Get away from religious bigotry. No matter how subtle, it smells very bad. It will has not and will not help muslims. It has not and will not help others. It has not and will not help Pakistan.

Dont hide behind the excuse that your religion requires you to be a bigot. I have been reading tahmed and some others. They are good muslims and not bigots. Dont spread your poison using nationalistic emotional tricks or big words please. Only harm will come from that.

I will be out for some days. Meet everyone later.

upman # 193

........ now, that was one of the best posts i have ever read on this subject ....... i wonder how the brain-dead and the brain-washed will respond ...... and yes, i mean to be cruel and offensive to those who believe in the superiority of one faith over another because their god tells them so ......one must not pander to the these forces of obscurantism and silliness just to be nice ...... i can assure you that once they get into power and establish the rule of god on earth, they won`t be very nice to people who want to pray standing up or want ribs for dinner - i, at least, have no desire to be burned at the stake or stretched on the rack ........

hobbyty # 185:

..you have qualified each of your Nos to Gwdhn`s Qs with a long para which essentially says yes...semantics and fluidity of the meaning of language has let you get away with it...and guess what, ask any of the Hindutva dime-a-dozen intellectuals floating around whether they would answer Yes or No- they`d come up with the exact same response: No, but..and then a long passage of explanation...

..your paragraph at the end is most interesting..i can understand where you are coming from- i`ve associated with the fringes of evangelical christianity (whose regular jargon is `continents of darkness` `oil-rich and God poor` etc. which you will know is akin to islamists of the unrefined variety)...and i`ll tell you why secularism is better than such X`ianity i knew, which would also be applicable to Islamism and Hindutva (as opposed to Islam and Hinduism)...secularism, even its aggressive variety -fascist as you call it- is aggressive about demanding that no set of belief be allowed to be considered superior to another and thus be given equal treatment with others...yes, you will find situations when such a secularist will speak against particular religions- its when these religions or their agents claim to be the final and only truth..

..and now this brings us to a delicate situation- there are very many religions, as you know, which claim to be the only and final truth...how would secularism live with such concepts?...well thats where the importance of separation of church and state come in..i may believe to my dying day that there is no salvation outside of Jesus, but if a state allows that to be a superior truth, then that would make life very uncomfortable to minorities in such a state...however the state could allow such believers to maintain their beliefs without according it priority to the several others, and stress the inclusive aspects of this religion so that a civil society with other religions can function...in one sense its a balancing act, but again not really because the rigid exclusiveness in religions is something not many communities want to stress constantly in a multi-cultural society...everybody is trying to find common ground and live amicably, which is a more instinctive human desire than some remote religious doctrine...actually fundamental alterations in interpreting that doctrine itself (`itjehad` if you will) occur as a result of secular living, as evidenced by the string of apologies the Vatican has been issuing and indeed the near-revolutionary advice to catholics from the Pope in Delhi- `to take from indigenous systems of belief those spiritual ideas that are compatible with one`s faith`...something for which good ol` john Paul would have been burnt at the stake a few hundred years ago (incidentally,the Pope wanting to address an Asian Bishops Conference, and refused by most countries including China and Sri Lanka was allowed in BJP-ruled India, not because of any magnanimity of the BJP but beacause of the secular nature of Indian public life, where a refusal would have created a storm of protests)

``That is to say that the ideas of ``secular``, have been drafted into the service of nationalism.``

..is it so difficult for you to appreciate that secularism, alongwith egalitarian-ising participatory democracy, was the cornerstone on which the gandhi-led modern indian nationalism was conceived...hard to digest i know, given the concept of pakistan..i too wouldnt have believed it had i been brought up on a diet of PTV `experts` who constantly drum down that indian secularism is `another devious bania trick`..please realize that the concept of secularism is something most indians are proud of, justifiably so consisdering the corner of the world we live in..

(and ylh, before you jump in with how gandhis mahatma-maulana-pandit etc. nexus and secularism are antagonistic concepts, let me repeat for the umpteenth time that intelligent interactors here are using the `equitable treatment of all religions` interpretation of secularism and not some ancient `state against church` concept)

Tahmed

Like you I found the French very depressing - but ofcourse that was the intention of the style - I did love Camus - I refer to him in my first post on this board ``Patrice without Lucienne`` - Majid`s alienation from himself reminds of Patrice in some ways - but even as Patrice is aware, Majid is not.

Styka I apprciate the effort but tell me, when discussing Hinduta, why not quote from what they say - or would you rather that I put quotes from their websites as what they say?

Hobbyty

Thank you. Your answers are -

1. Dont you use the bogey of western domination as VHP, RSS, SHIV SENA people do?

No, I dont but Hindutva vadis do.

2. Dont you promote a us and them thinking between Muslims and others, just like like VHP, RSS, SHIV SENA people do?

No, I dont but Hindutva vadis do.

3. Dont you use your interpretation of history to appeal to Muslims young peoples emotions, just like like VHP, RSS, SHIV SENA people appeal to Hindus young peoples emotions?

No, I dont but Hindutva vadis do.

4. Dont you paint a picture of Muslims being annhilated by non muslims, just like like VHP, Hindus being annhilated by Muslims?

No, I dont but Hindutva vadis do.

Because all here your past interacts, because you are interacting even now, the truth of your answers can be checked objectively.

All can check how truthful Hobbyty has been. I prefer not read all his past interacts by myself. We cant call him Hindutva vadi carbon copy if he is telling the truth. We should take his answers one by one.

Difference between Hindutva vadis and Hobbyty -

Number one: Hobbyty does not use the bogey of western domination as VHP, RSS, SHIV SENA people do.

Anyone like check this first answer?