The Virgin Bride

Nasah

Well done! More support of the observation that class and socioeconomics do play a role in the particular brand of misogyny in certain attitudes.

Reply 70

Am I missing something here or is this supposed to be fact?? And who is Aliyah to whom this is addressed to?

Abysmal - dear interactor you have lots of answering to do : )

Saminashah - yes - The Wedding Banquet is hilarious. There is another one on similar lines - Man, Woman, Eat, Drink, Sleep - is what it is called if I am not mistaken.

aicha

I don`t know how religious I was before I started reading Chowk, but the more I read from my `enlightened`, `progressive` friends, the more sick i feel in my gut...call it instincts. All of a sudden, I need Allah and His wisdom because I`d be lost if I trusted much of the advice here!

In my mind, i see a sour grapes mentality. Deep down, I know that in an ideal world, I would want a life that`s different than what most people seem to be living here, and pragmatism says give up and join the melee (a self-defacing compromise?!).

But my instincts insist on seeking a higher plane of meaning...where a kiss is not just a kiss, but a window. It`s the same motivation that`s helped me excel in school etc, so if that pure motivation hasn`t failed me there, then it shouldn`t in other aspects of life.

People live their whole lives surrounded by friends and family and possessions, but if they don`t possess themselves fully, they will always feel truly alone. Worse yet, they may not even realize it.

When I think about it abstractly, Heaven is not so much a place, but that which is not Hell (marlowe)...and while many would settle for this existence in happiness, it`s only because they can`t `see` Heaven...

In that same sense, to me, True Love is not that which has been presented here, by Neptune or the `happy woman who married Adil`. But that`s their lives (this is not meant as a personal attack), and i`m assuming they are satisfied. Why settle for anything less? I`m worth it. I`m just saying that I know that I wouldn`t be satisfied, deep down, and i wonder if I`m alone on this, or if others agree...

I`m in love with someone younger than I, and as she`s from a different caste, she will, most probably, have just such an arranged marriage. And most probably, again, such a phone call will take place.

I got half-way through the piece, and then paged back in my browser window, it hurt too much. And then, gathered up all my courage and read the story to the end....

and then, pain...

but, I congratulate you... you`ve touched me enough to stop lurking... and maybe someday, start writing.

#82

[Neptune

``Well that is exactly my point. I know that pre-marital relationships are being demonised. What I am trying to say is that I don`t find anything logical about this negative image. ``]

Yes it is if you are an observent Muslim.

Any relationship of the nature of sexual, either mental or physical ,would be unislamic.Ishq,mohabbat,pyar waar,out side of married couple is unacceptable if you dont believe in western way of selectin of mate through ``dating``

hobbyty:

Agreed with the most of what you said. However, the tension between the sexes in our lower / uneducated classes cannot be removed easily. Especially since they arew not even educated to understand the ideas involved.

Another thing is that looking at sex the way it is in the US (not europe but US), its all a media driven craze. The fact that nowadays teens are more active in sex in pakistan is a result of this media projection. I think 10-20 yrs ago, even though there was some western influence, sex was less frequent, but if we notice, women and men from that time can also interact with each other. I look at my parents talking, I look at them talking to other couples. There is no tension what so ever. The key is in eduaction. However if we look at the teen culture now, in pakistan (atleast the upper or middle educated classes) its become more sex based, but the genuineness has gone. It is all superficial. Its interesting to see how the kids today are so much more different thean 5-7 yrs ago, when I was in school. I would blame the media to a large extent, especially the western one, for preaching amorality, or the lack of consequences in there shows. Its all about fun, not reality. When kids see that, they think its the real thing, but when they go through the entire thing, they will realize that they were seriously deluded. But by that time they are too involved in the whole game.

The point here is that before we start preaching about interaction between men and women, the younger generation needs to learn a lot more, about the consequences, about morality. But that is tough to acheive, especially since to convince a teen of anything, is quite an issue. If we take another look at hte US, nowadays companies have started targetting the teens for products such as cell phones, clothes, accessories etc. Why? Cuse they are the most gullible, and parents often give in to their kids. I hope we in Pakistan will not head towards this (though there are already signs in the upper classes of this happening). The sense of morality never gets instilled, and the sense of selfishness takes over.

The conclusion? Ban the western media :)

princes:

I found your post interesting. The trueness in your though and the image you have of an ideal world, is the one most people have when they are young. But as they grow, somethings amiss. Something doesnt feel right, reality takes over.

We all want to be happy, thats the goal everyone seeks for. But some where along the way, we get lost, by the chaos around us, we want to stay involved in the world yet we want peace. Its a sado-masochistic idea, a paradox, a balance very difficult to acheive.

Pick up the newspaper. If you live in the states, then most of it is all rosy. But they conveniently forget to mention the more than 500,000 people getting massacred in Rwanda, or back in the days, the 1.7 million killings in Cambodia. Sure, the world seems a better place in a sheltered environment. A place that has been cut off from the rest of the world, so you can think, do, imagine, whatever your heart desires. ``your`` desires are the most important. They are more important than your thought for a moment over the worlds ``problems``. (Please dont think ``yours`` as you personally, its more general). So what are the means that one is willing to take, to acheive the end. ``Ahhh, the capitalists dream come true`` : People are inherently selfish. They care only about themselves. So exploit this factor. Dog eat dog. Who ever survives in the end wins! Soon, the ``desires`` turn to ``wants`` and then to ``needs``. And then the desires, which existed purely in thought, in ideal, surface as needs to live.

My point? Practicality is a double edged sword. You acheive a great deal, but you loose yourself in the process.

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ayeisha #60

....... now i know why islamiyat and heat transfer and fluid mechanics were my favourite subjects ....there is nothing more thrilling than finding out that you can give sadaqa and have dirty sex at the same time ........ i don`t know what we muslims are always complaining about - who needs the kama sutra and dr ruth and the playboy advisor when you can get it straight from our own learned, perverted and goofy, but kinky, ulema ........ makes me wonder - should i be sending my kids to sunday school to be schooled by hijabed, cloaked, gloved and dark-sunglassed temptresses ? ......sisters in faith ......... what carnal, lickerish, lewd and lascivious thoughts lurk behind the veil? .......... oh, what i would give to find out .......

....... and where was i when all these wild parties were taking place? .... why didn`t mubeena proposition me ? ....... heck, i had side-burns to die for and could pluck one mean guitar and was always willing to share peeli-pati and mandies ........ then why didn`t i ever get past first base ( maybe second - my pride is getting in the way of truth ) ........ i was convinced that all pakistani girls had locks on their bras and would die protecting their izzat..... was i wrong ? ... should i have tried harder instead of spiking the punch ? ....... maybe i just passed out and missed the fun .........

.......... and what is this about dirty old men propositioning young girls ? ......... i think it is quite unislamic to suggest that there is anything wrong with a man marrying a younger woman - in some circles it would be considered blasphemous ....... and besides, it is a biological thing - something to do with men having the seed to sow in their seventies while women run out of eggs by the time they are thirty-someting ......... and i didn`t make it up ....... hey, who can argue with nature ... god knew that when he made the rules - four women per man, and if abdul is still not satisfied he can have a dozen or more concubines .......so let`s not go changing the rules because we have been corrupted by the decadent west and now wear pants and drive and vote and generally pretend to people .............

Aeisha

``As Imam al-Ghazali says: ``Sex should begin with gentle words and kissing,`` and Imam al-Zabidi adds: ``This should include not only the cheeks and lips; and then he should caress the breasts and nipples, and every part of her body.`` (Zabidi, Ithaf al-Sada al Muttaqin, V 372) Most men will not need telling this; but it should be remembered that failure to observe this Islamic practice is to neglect or deny the way Allah has created women.

``

I like this Ghazali guy. Does he describe the caressing and fondling part in any more details. What procedure should be followed while one is fondling breasts. What is meant by ``and every part of the body``. What if by abiding the injunction ``(fondle) every part of the body``, one runs out of steam and is not able to ``rub his seed``(in your language) properly or his seeds are wasted. What Islam orders women to do while her breasts are being fondled.

geez I never thought Kuran/Hadith etc are so sexy. Gotta read them. Translation available anywhere!

Karim Shankar

V sweet and laudable sentiments but obviously you havent heard of ``whats good for the goose is good for the gander`` : )

aicha

Reply Saminashah #84

Samina apa

Welcome to Chowk! Yahan tho hum sab yahi karthe hain. All in good fun.

Zafar

I think majeed`s wife is more to be blamed than majeed. He wanted this marriage so he went for her. She did not want him so she should have put her foot down.

I could relate to a lot in this piece, it was good but a little too long. I know numerous girls who become `available` when the choices that were made for them did not make them happy but that is not the solution.

I rather liked scout`s approach. Yes ... stand up for yourself and say it to everybody`s face that he is an uncle and not for me.

I liked the ending but the majeeds of the world do not end up paying at all, they usually marry in their early thirties and yes they do get virgin brides.

Re Bapu # 89

Mohabbat, ishq and dating are not at all unislamic though sexual relations with anyone other than your spouse are considered wrong.

Here is another column from Dawn pertinent to the continuing discussion of women rights in Islamic Pakistan.

Why a woman should not go to a male doctor!

By Fazila Gulrez

IMAGINE! The significance of the Council of Islamic Ideology`s suggestions that women should not go to male tailors to get their clothes stitched or to male doctors for treatment.

Why? Despite my best efforts to understand the rationale behind these suggestions I could not come up with a convincing answer.

Undoubtedly, it is an important issue, because it was discussed by the CII - the custodian of morals and values of the citizens of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, particularly of women.

Pakistani women are a strange species in the modern civilized world. They are weak, dependent, of below average IQ and, of course, unaware of the vulnerability of their morals.

It is, therefore, to protect them against wile men of below average moral values, that the CII was set up in the first place, and given such vital issues to deliberate on and then make suggestions.

It is true that the population of the country is largely illiterate, women more than men. Even then I am sure a woman in her right mind knows how to lead her life respectfully and with honour.

They definitely do not require a group of self-proclaimed caretakers of religion to tell them how to spend their personal lives. Because, telling women where to get their clothes stitched, or whether or not to go to a male doctor is nobody`s concern.

This reminds me of a book I read that was written a hundred years ago. The writer was a woman of Bengali origin. She wrote about true incidents where women suffered due to male chauvinism and prevalence of conservative mind-sets.

One of the incidents, she recounted in her book was about a woman, covered from head to toe in a burqa (veil), who was trying to get on a train. Somehow, she tripped over her burqa and one of her legs was crushed under the wheels.

Since, she could not be taken to a male doctor, and in the absence of a female physician - there were no many around 100 years ago - she bled to death. Can any sane person justify this death?

Has anything changed for women of this region in the last hundred years? Nothing it seems, at least not for the men sitting in the CII. We have stepped into a new century and millennium that promise technological advancement beyond our imagination.

We have, as yet, not comprehended the developments of the last thirty years. One can only wonder of what will happen in the next twenty years. And, in Pakistan, the privileged and the educated few have nothing better to spend their invaluable time on except to debate, whether women should be allowed to see a male doctor or not? It is astoundingly ridiculous.

I have a query for the CII, what happens if a man falls seriously ill and needs emergency medical treatment and the only available doctor is a female? Thanks God, we have among us a number of very efficient and top-class lady doctors - not just gynaecologists - in all related fields. Will he be left to die like women or are women allowed to treat him?

One really wonders, if to be amused or feel sorry on this state of affairs. I would like to inform the wise men who run the CII that may be they are living in the past, but, we the women are not.

In hundreds years, even the illiterate women of Pakistan have taken great strides in life. They are no longer the lot that will take these kinds of diktats lightly and without protest. Women have moved on in life and not by choice but because it is their right.

It would be better for the Council and the keepers of our morals to stop monitoring the lives of women and start answering questions such as:

Why women, who are already suppressed, lacking in confidence and treated like commodities, cannot be given their rightful place in the society? The right to education, health, nutrition, marry by choice, equal opportunity to work and most of all with respect and dignity. And who has given the Muslim men the right to deny them their freedom, who themselves enjoy and abuse it with impunity.

This country is way behind in development and needs years of concerted hard work to come to some semblance of progress. We are not lacking in manpower and instead have been suffering from brain drain for the past two decades.

What we desperately need to do is to employ our total manpower - men and women - in mainstream development and give our next generation a stable, strong and prosperous Pakistan.

I request the members of the Council of Islamic Ideology, to give up debating such trivial, mundane and meaningless issues. Hundreds of women are maimed, burnt, raped, killed in the name of honour by men. They are denied basic rights to good health, education, innocent childhood, dignity and much more.

These are serious issues, that need time consuming deliberations and answers. Not tailors and doctors.

``Acid thrown on women for not wearing veil



RINAGAR: Adding a new dimension to the ongoing militancy, militants threw acid on two Muslim women for not wearing veil and wearing make-up on their faces.

The two government teachers were attacked with acid by militants of a less known group, Lashker-e-Jabbar, at Rangers Stop near Khanyal in downtown Srinagar two days ago.

Gaziyla and Rubia, teaching in a higher secondary school, were attacked while they were returning home around 8 pm after an excursion.

Police said the militants used a diluted form of acid and the two women were discharged from hospital after first aid.

Two other women faced similar treatment in Kaksarai recently.``

Thanks for diluting it gentlemen - how humane!