The Virgin Bride

Welcome to CHOWK Nafisa.
Enjoyed this writing very much.
We need more such work here.
CHOWK sometimes gets too political (I`m a part of
the guilty party).
It`s always great to get back to basics.

Ras

Although kids in Karachi don`t really talk the way you`ve described in the beginning dialogue (sounds very American, and I don`t mean ``wassup yo yo yo``), this is a very brave and sophisticated piece of writing. Let`s have a little bit of info about you, unless you`re hiding from the wrath of uncles and aunties who will no doubt be horrified at this piece. Well done!

The author is a woman,so it cant be wild imagination of preadolescence.To blame it on upper class or Convent education is hiding somthing.I dont think a rich family is necessarily more sexually promiscuous than a lower income one.In fact if push comes to shove ,it can be argued that poor families can be enticed with material more .

What about abstenence ,if Pakistan learns fron the west ,then there are stricter Catholic schools than grammar schools of Pakistan ,or abstence as a viable possibility is already being actively practiced in mormon of utah,many roman catholic groups etc.etc.

My last question would be to young Nafisa, & quiet few other writers like Zehra & Samina ,who have also delved with sexually explicit subjects including watching porno & masterbating..WHY ?Isnt some topics left for private conversation.Is it that young girls who want to write only know to use there sexuality in daily life as also in everything including writing.Is the mind contain nothing else than raging hormones.

Biologically it is still possible to be NOT sexually active at 17 or more ,the proof of which is how behaviour has changed even in permissive society since the stark reality of AIDs .Teen pregnancy ,NOT TO SPEAK OF HUDOOD law of pakistan.

So do what ever you want ,dont blame/or justify through the west or scietific progress ,what is essentially moral degradation & not any progress or advancement ,no matter how many pAkistanis manage to get here by various means.

The author is a woman,so it cant be wild imagination of preadolescence.To blame it on upper class or Convent education is hiding somthing.I dont think a rich family is necessarily more sexually promiscuous than a lower income one.In fact if push comes to shove ,it can be argued that poor families can be enticed with material more .

What about abstenence ,if Pakistan learns fron the west ,then there are stricter Catholic schools than grammar schools of Pakistan ,or abstence as a viable possibility is already being actively practiced in mormon of utah,many roman catholic groups etc.etc.

My last question would be to young Nafisa, & quiet few other writers like Zehra & Samina ,who have also delved with sexually explicit subjects including watching porno & masterbating..WHY ?Isnt some topics left for private conversation.Is it that young girls who want to write only know to use there sexuality in daily life as also in everything including writing.Is the mind contain nothing else than raging hormones.

Biologically it is still possible to be NOT sexually active at 17 or more ,the proof of which is how behaviour has changed even in permissive society since the stark reality of AIDs .Teen pregnancy ,NOT TO SPEAK OF HUDOOD law of pakistan.

So do what ever you want ,dont blame/or justify through the west or scietific progress ,what is essentially moral degradation & not any progress or advancement ,no matter how many pAkistanis manage to get here by various means.

Patrice with out Lucienne -

Did Majid ever have any relationships with women that did more for him than grow hair on his chest? Was he ever in love with anybody? Now he wanted children - but with her? Was she a baby factory then? In the 20 years after Mubeena, he seemed to have stop growing emotionally.

Did he emotionally internalize that he was 37 and she wasn`t even thirty? for 25 or 22?

Did Majid understand that his wife had a life before Majid came into the picture? Now that he became aware of his wife`s emotional life, Would he accept it and get past it? Will he begin to grow up? Will he fall in love with his wife? And what of his nameless bride? why did she consent? why did she give up on her lover? Why? Why? Why?

For how much longer will Pakistani men and women find utility in harmful attitudes and customs which bring with them needless pain and shame?

For how much longer will Western ``whores`` be the object of our hostility, rejection and humiliation?

Ms. Haji, this was such fun to read, so much here I can personally relate to - Women will, and should, always remain mysteries; as close and intimate as one may be with them, one is always mindful even as one can`t resist the attraction of that fathomless quality.

how about naming this article as ``The Virgin Adultress``???

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I really enjoyed the piece. It was so good that I actually registered to let you know that you did a wonderful job.

aissey lai te siyaane kehnday ne shadi ch dair nahi karni chahidi.

bechara Majid

The author is a woman,so it cant be wild imagination of preadolescence.To blame it on upper class or Convent education is hiding somthing.I dont think a rich family is necessarily more sexually promiscuous than a lower income one.In fact if push comes to shove ,it can be argued that poor families can be enticed with material more .

What about abstenence ,if Pakistan learns fron the west ,then there are stricter Catholic schools than grammar schools of Pakistan ,or abstence as a viable possibility is already being actively practiced in mormon of utah,many roman catholic groups etc.etc.

My last question would be to young Nafisa, & quiet few other writers like Zehra & Samina ,who have also delved with sexually explicit subjects including watching porno & masterbating..WHY ?Isnt some topics left for private conversation.Is it that young girls who want to write only know to use there sexuality in daily life as also in everything including writing.Is the mind contain nothing else than raging hormones?.

Biologically it is still possible to be NOT sexually active at 17 or more ,the proof of which is how behaviour has changed even in permissive society since the stark reality of AIDs .Teen pregnancy ,NOT TO SPEAK OF HUDOOD law of pakistan.

So do what ever you want ,dont blame/or justify through the west or scietific progress ,what is essentially moral degradation & not any progress or advancement ,no matter how many pAkistanis manage to get here by various means.

Having zipped through this lengthy article faster than one unzips the fly in the men`s room in an emergency, I was ready to move on. But then I noticed the commeuppance for our hero at the end, and went back and re-zipped through the article a bit more slowly. There is no doubt a breed of men like this one who have a single-minded pursuit of immediate pleasure. They think a visa to the US is a ticket to these pleasures. Unless they are smart enough to understand soon enough that the laws of nature (you get what you give) are the same in the US as in Pakistan, they end up driving cabs.

A Pakistani virgin girl asking a Pakistani virgin boy:

``I do have a favor to ask.``

“Sleep with me, Majid,” her eyes were deadly serious as she spoke the words``

Wow!





“Sleep with me, Majid,” her eyes were deadly serious as she spoke the words.

As I have reiterated before there should be an adolescent section on the chowk - where this could be appreciated.......
Overt sexuality does little to hold a story together....

Bijli # 3,4,13

We all got it the first time.

Sleep with me, Majid

It’s you I need inside of me

can`t see desi gals saying such stuff.

Wonder if Imran Khan reads Chowk articles !!!!!

Our friend Majid would definitely have been better off if he had married one of the dozens of women he had relationships with. Its beyond me as to why he had to marry this 21 year old Pakistani lady. If he did it based on the idea that `a man should not marry a woman he has slept with`, then he needs to get a life.

My 2 cents!!! I think that there should be a law against those who think of marriage as a means of getting regular sex (and only sex) from a submissive and compliant eastern woman who is decades younger. Majid was definitely one of those. Otherwise he would have settled down with one of the womans he fell in love with. Or love here also meant lust. Man!!!! this character needs to pull his act together and think beyond his extremities.:) I mean even if he wanted a pakistani wife, he could have married a 30-something, but he had to have a raw (i am sorry for this adjective, but it is an attempt at sarcasm:) 21 year old.

Nafisa, well written!!! So well written that I have gone about criticising Majid as if he was for real... So keep writing..

Raza

wait a second, the guy was 37 and the girl 21?

Majid`s a sleazebag....

Pretty formulaic - you reap what you sow, etc. Even the conversations, descriptions, etc. are very trite. If the writer is very young and trying out fiction writing, there is a lot of improvement. Be original, don`t filch ideas, snippets of conversations from other sources. I can`t imagine anyone in pakistan using the colloquialism that these characters do.

However, I must admit that almost all boys who come here to study have probably been excited by the prospect of bedding a lot of these ``easy`` women. Don`t know what it`s like for girls. I`m surprized that you could get under the skin of boys in this respect.

Bijli and others :

The face of the upper class has changed a lot since you might have been there (idont know your age). Sex is a taboo, but there is a lot of sleeping around going on. Not quite like the way it was described in the stories, but yes boys and girls are getting laid as we speak.

Blame the western media for this trash culture (it copies the white trash that you watch on tv and enjoy). Cut off your cable tv`s and get net nannies in your computers. Thats what I would do if I was a parent.

What a twist in the tale!

Great story, and good writing Ms Haji!

-narain

Syed Ahmed:

``As I have reiterated before there should be an adolescent section on the chowk - where this could be appreciated.......

Overt sexuality does little to hold a story together.... ``

so u want chowk.com give u a quality ``family time`` like PTV???

Where did u get the impression that ``overtly sexuality`` is restricted to children?

what`s happening with chowk these days? where has all the talent gone?

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and then it all came crashing down -

haunting story -

hope to see you again

-p

ps: to random interactors - its not about hormones and sex - its what repression and ignorance and the inability to listen to what we hear - does to the kids in societies like ours. a vicious self-perpetuating system.

Sad But True!

Welcome to N. America. Nice read.

Keep it up.

MF

this story is very naughty. it is clearly the result of a solid dinyat schooling.

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AAmir #26 Truer words were never spoken on chowk.

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From what I know about women, girls in their 20`s like ``mature, handsome and wealthy men.`` Whether its because of Hollywood, Bollywood or Lollywood, or literature from any country you name, the culture of young women being attracted to older men is much more common then the writer and interactors suggest. Whether it`s the right thing is another matter.

About sex and the city of Karachi, well, I had heard of it but didn`t believe it myself until I met my good friend K,who has just came from there and told me his own personal exploits.

My take on this: We can...

1. Continue with the status quo and do nothing while young people, and not just north of the Clifton bridge, risk the STD`s as well as moral and religious backlash. Not to mention a life of sin and shame.

2. Restart marriage at a younger age. Not practical these days.

3. Revive the old custom of Temporary marriage that existed during the time of Prophet and which, though rejected by Sunni scholars, is still a part of Shia theology. Practiced rarely in the Sub-continent Shias, it is more common in Iranian and Arab Shias.

4. Refuse to acknowledge that this is an Islamic country and these kids are Muslims who shouldn`t be doing this. Only because life of Western-inspired materialism, instant-gratification and hedonism is a much appealing alternative to a set of rules that promote virtue and civility. (Talibanesque Islam is not what I mean here, though, as it`s a home-bred tribal custom-inspired barbarism.)

5. Criticize anyone who criticizes this kind of life-style because we consider ourselves enlightened and liberated from the stone-age customs of a dead religion. Life is here and now, enjoy while it lasts. There`s no tommorrow and no after-life. We all go to heaven if it even exists.

But you must choose for yourself.

R

Shah #32,

Who cares about Dilip and Saira.....didn`t she like him anyway.

This is about older Pakistani men getting hitched to way younger women through arranged marriages.

I`ve seen it happen.

I had to call one guy ``Uncle`` when he came by to set him straight. The look on his face when he heard word was a Kodak moment. Poor thing.

hey Nafisa!

A nice and brave piece indeed..hope you are not a recently married 21 yr old one time graduate of convent!

keep writing!

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RE: Author,

Oh the mother of all paybacks !!!...;-) LOL, ...sorry Nafisa but the construct seems a little manufactured. You baseline with Mubeena`s scenario and you conclude with Majid`s reality, both are identical. You treat both Paap & P`oo`UN the same.

And you didn`t give us the moral of the story ;-)

Hypothetically, Majid, with all his apparent good looks, charm, and experience is a Jack Ass who aggrees to marry a 21 old...:-) well how about an alternative, Mubeena gives birth to a child which belongs to Majid as the result of their one night together, she moves to states unknown to Majid,

a) Majid discovers the wife to be is Mubeena`s daughter and gets the reality check there

b) Majid finds out the girl is Mubeena`s daughter and Mubeena had been divorced many years ago and marries her

c) Majid finds out the ``guy`` on the other end is actually is Mubeena`s Son.

d) or Majid finds out the ``guy`` on the other end is ACTUALLY his son that Mubeena had, and never told him about...;-)

If you want to address sex and sexuality, please be bold, and go ``where no man has gone before``. Sex is serious business Nafisa, and Karachi`s pre pubescent under ground scene is a far cry from it. Any way good wishes and I hope you attempt sex again with a different angle.

nafisa:

...welcome to chowk...please continue sharing your work...

bina #2 and Waheed #37...both of you on the money!

lve,

t

Nafisa, i was able to find the conversation of characters in your piece believable though some have said they sounded outlandish.

I also liked the conclusion as it was. keep writing.

scout:

`baychara majid`. sleazebag majid. calling the prospective groon an uncle. those were all funny.

Shah #36,

You`re NOT getting my point. The couples you mentioned apparently ``fell in love`` and then got married.

I`m talking about older men who set about giving proposals to younger girls families....taking advantage of the traditional arranged marriage system.

Dear writer:

In order to prove a valid point -- indeed a great punch line -- you don`t have to stretch the limits of incredulity in your writing -- even if it is a fiction -- which I don`t think it is.

Even in this land of ``sin and pleasure`` ie USA -- no ``sopisticated bomshell`` will ever dare to ask a male the question ``will you sleep with me`` -- only a hooker will.

I wonder who will write their story?

From Rediff today...

Lovers hanged to death in UP
A 20-year-old youth and his 18-year-old beloved, belonging to different castes, were hanged to death by their parents in the presence of hundreds of residents at a village in Muzaffarnagar district of Uttar Pradesh, police said on Tuesday.

District police chief B S Moriya said Vishal and Sonu were brought to the roof of a house and hanged one after the other at Alipur village on Monday night.

The girl`s parents and the boy`s elder brother and sister-in-law were witnesses to the hanging, he said.

Sonu and Vishal had been in love for some time and were asked by their families to stop meeting each other, Moriya said.

The entire village was also opposed to the affair, he added.

Relations between the two families soured because of the caste factor. Sonu was a Jat while Vishal was a Brahmin.

The police arrested the parents of the girl and the brother and sister-in-law of the boy on the charge of murder.

Moriya said firearm licences of the villagers had been suspended for remaining mute spectators to the cold-blooded murder.

PTI

STUKA #42, ``Hun Scout nu vekho, munda millan aaya tey unnu Uncle bulaya...Mundey kee kariye??``

Munda nahi Buddha

rozaiba #39,

should i say thank u to that :)

The ugly-old-bald-pervert + pretty-young-girl combo is common in the US as well. Peek into the shops on 5th ave and you`ll see it. Only difference is that in the US it is voluntary whereas elsewhere it may be arranged and not completely voluntary.

In the US it is usually driven by old man`s desire for a trophy wife and young girl`s desire for a sugar daddy (big wallet). But who`s to stop people from doing what pleases them...

Case of Saira Bano and Zeta Jones is different. Both were independent women on their own feet and made the choices because they liked the guys. In case of our Mubeena, Ammi and Abbu declared the engagement and she does not seem to like the guy at all.

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Ras Siddiqui #43 Every instinct of a parent is to protect and nourish the child. What is it that causes a parent to hang his own child because he disapproves of the choice of marriage partner by the child? The only realistic explanation I can think of is fear for the future of the other children. The next question then is: Why this fear? I think the ultimate explanation has to do with poverty (girls not getting married off). Someone once said that the biggest crime of poverty is that it steals childhood from the children. I think there are additional crimes too: stealing parental instincts from the parent being the illustrated in this case.

Let us pray to God that we can get these damn GNP growth rates moving in South Asia and free people from the horrors that poverty confronts them with every day.

It`s such a shame that guys and girls like this exist...they short-change themselves in the long-term, for the short-term.

SEX: It`s more than the STD`s, unwanted pregnancies...it`s the spiritual quality that self-discipline provides. It`s an investment in oneself, made for another person too.

As muslims lose that which makes them unique (their spiritual discipline) in an attempt to become more like everyone else (American?) they are doing something very ``un-American``--they are no longer unique. riff raff like everyone else. American Pie. i couldn`t be bothered.

Unfortunately, where does that leave a person like me? I`m ``scared`` to chose a muslim wife, because i`d be crushed to find out she was unfaithful although I was. And here I was saving myself for a muslimah, when there are many non-Muslims with more discipline/ religiousity/ commonsense who I`ve bypassed! In that sense, the latter are far more ``muslim``...

I`m not really shocked though...Allah rewards everyone fairly in the end. But I can see the tragedy unfolding..

DullaBhatti #47,

my point exactly

Re:Shah #: 32

``...but in case you dont know Dilip Kumar (Yusuf Khan)married Saira Bano exactly when he was 44 & she 22 !!``

Another famous case...Imran Khan was 42 when he married Jemina Smith who was 21.

``dummm musst qalander dharrrr rrragrrraaa

Chowk pey angraijee kanjar hain

Chowk pey angraijee rundee hai

Chowk pey angraijee bharvaa hai

Upney chowk pey subb kuchh hey piyaray

Yeh university avenue hai

ABCD subb Ainvaeen yaan hai

Leafy glade kay inn ko dekho

subb ko nangaa dinn ko dekho

Civic center kay shareefay laylo

Hindu-muslim kameenay dey do

Upney chowk pey subb kuchh hai pyaaray

Gymkhana key junkee yaan hain

Gulberg key Gulmurg yahan hain

Chaat house key chaalbaaz yahan hain

Market street kay murghbaaz yahan hain

upney chowk mein subb kuchh hai pyaaray

Chowk yeh upnaa amreekun hai

aam yahaan subb nangaa pun hai

beech bazaar mein maan ko lao

beti ko chowk pey nangaa lao

behn ko goray sey karvao

angraijee mein yeh subb achha

Punjabee mein chhheee chheee gundaa

Kumur sey oopur miraa eemaan

Kumur sey neechay

kumur sey neechay?

kumur sey neechay??

Naa mein hindu---naa musulmaan.

Kumur sey oopur junnat meri

kumur sey oopur swarg hai mera

kumur sey neechay key hissay ko

bhaij do dozakh

bhaij do nirk mein(yaa phir sey nayee kumaryaa dey do,bhaijaa bhee kuchh hi-tech vaala aur kafee bay-eemaan)

Dil kaa kyaa hai

Humm to hain dil phaink

Dummm mmmussst qalander dharrrr rrragrrraaa

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Reply #: 49

princes

``It`s such a shame that guys and girls like this exist...they short-change themselves in the long-term, for the short-term.``

Knowing the world ,just helps you to be ware ,prepared & choosy.Even the worse statistics show 50% high school girls in America to be virgin.Its not like there arent good charactered unlike Mubeenas ,are in minority .

I hate girls who lose there virginity just to make a statement against boys who are flirteceous.God does not punish them with conception,god has not saddled them with breast that starts lactating & law doesnt require them to nurse the result of such indescrition.If you want to fight against nature be my guest.

..``Unfortunately, where does that leave a person like me? I`m ``scared`` to chose a muslim wife, because i`d be crushed to find out she was unfaithful although I was. And here I was saving myself for a muslimah, when there are many non-Muslims with more discipline/ religiousity/ commonsense who I`ve bypassed! In that sense, the latter are far more ``muslim``...

I`m not really shocked though...Allah rewards everyone fairly in the end. But I can see the tragedy unfolding..``

No need to panic.We are still talking about ,you couldnt just pick blindly any muslim girl & expect her to be muslimah.The virtuous one are still in majority ,if you follow your religous directive .No dowry,be fair & just .Carry your responsibility accirding to sunnah & as you said dont follow the ``western``` broken system of family life .

Reply Stuka 342

Be strong, yaar, persevere.

Qalandar #52:

[Kumur sey oopur miraa eemaan

Kumur sey neechay

kumur sey neechay?

kumur sey neechay??

Naa mein hindu---naa musulmaan.

Kumur sey oopur junnat meri

kumur sey oopur swarg hai mera

]

That was a master piece sir jee:-)

Whew! Extremely well written Nafisa. This is the first time I`m reading a Pak/Muslim story that touched me.

What is the big deal here with people going into paroxysms of indignation and other self-righteous claptrap?

1) The issue here is not of morals at all. The central theme of the story is a comparison between two contrasting lifestyles - where they intersect, what attracts people to them and what compromises one has to make in either.

2) Even if Majid had lived the life of an ascetic and spent his 37 years researching cures for cancer (and praying five times a day), the ending of the story could have been IDENTICAL! While sub-consciously we might feel happy at him getting a divine come-uppance, it is nothing but a coincidence and nothing to do with how he had spent his life.

3) Why should anybody be bothered if his/her spouse had physical affairs before marriage? As long as the spouses are faithful to each other AFTER marriage, there should not be any reason for complaint. (I assume there are no inconveniences like secret children and/or STDs involved here)

4) Morals shmorals. For each such Majid I know of at least ten others (men and women) who have $crewed around for years before finally settling down with their 17th boyfriend/girlfriend and proceeding to grow fat, buy minivans and generally live happily ever after (well.... so far).

Dear Bijli,

I have never introduced, referred to or written about the topics you have said I did in your post-I find these topics to be completely inappropriate. If you have confused me with another writer, please indicate so. Othewise, please provide the CHowk post text to support your statements. You will find that your statements are in error. Thank you.

Pakistanis , Have you lost your minds? have you lost your sense of compassion? Your sense of irony, your sense of tragedy? Will you turn away from the pain of others and will you suppress your own pain and questioning minds by seeking to judge individuals, instead of the attitudes, and circumstances they seek to negotiate - as best as they can -

Why is your sense of shame only for attitudes about women and sex? Why do you not express shame for the oppression of your sisters and mothers - are you blind to their pain, their circumspection? Why do you feel no shame for holding attitudes that make of your sisters, your mothers, your girl friends, objects to be acted upon, to make decisions on behalf of -

Pakistani women, where are you? when will you realize that only can change things for yourselves - that you must accept the pain the changing of attitudes entails?

Shame, before pain? Never! - not the Islamic thing to do, not the human thing to do, not the

Pakistani thing to do!

Poor Majid!

Poor all the women Majid could not respond to emotionally!

Poor Raheem!

poor ``Western whores``

Poor Mubeena!

Poor nameless wife!

Poor nameless wife`s lover!

Poor all of us!

Pakistanis , Have you lost your minds? have you lost your sense of compassion? Your sense of irony, your sense of tragedy? Will you turn away from the pain of others and will you suppress your own pain and questioning minds by seeking to judge individuals, instead of the attitudes, and circumstances they seek to negotiate - as best as they can -

Why is your sense of shame only for attitudes about women and sex? Why do you not express shame for the oppression of your sisters and mothers - are you blind to their pain, their circumspection? Why do you feel no shame for holding attitudes that make of your sisters, your mothers, your girl friends, objects to be acted upon, to make decisions on behalf of -

Pakistani women, where are you? when will you realize that only can change things for yourselves - that you must accept the pain the changing of attitudes entails?

Shame, before pain? Never! - not the Islamic thing to do, not the human thing to do, not the

Pakistani thing to do!

Poor Majid!

Poor all the women Majid could not respond to emotionally!

Poor Raheem!

poor ``Western whores``

Poor Mubeena!

Poor nameless wife!

Poor nameless wife`s lover!

Poor all of us!

Pakistanis , Have you lost your minds? have you lost your sense of compassion? Your sense of irony, your sense of tragedy? Will you turn away from the pain of others and will you suppress your own pain and questioning minds by seeking to judge individuals, instead of the attitudes, and circumstances they seek to negotiate - as best as they can -

Why is your sense of shame only for attitudes about women and sex? Why do you not express shame for the oppression of your sisters and mothers - are you blind to their pain, their circumspection? Why do you feel no shame for holding attitudes that make of your sisters, your mothers, your girl friends, objects to be acted upon, to make decisions on behalf of -

Pakistani women, where are you? when will you realize that only can change things for yourselves - that you must accept the pain the changing of attitudes entails?

Shame, before pain? Never! - not the Islamic thing to do, not the human thing to do, not the

Pakistani thing to do!

Poor Majid!

Poor all the women Majid could not respond to emotionally!

Poor Raheem!

poor ``Western whores``

Poor Mubeena!

Poor nameless wife!

Poor nameless wife`s lover!

Poor all of us!

qalandar #52

``angraijee mein yeh subb achha

Punjabee mein chhheee chheee gundaa``

Long live qalandar!! The Poet of the East and West and North and South!!

Here is a column from Dawn pertinent to the subject matter -- ie interaction between men and women -- spanning the two extremes.

Obsession-2

By Hafizur Rahman

SOME six months ago I wrote a piece in this space under the title of ``Obsession.`` It was about the social and mental fixations from which we suffer in respect of our attitude towards women. I had left the piece incomplete by saying ``More to follow.`` So, here is the next instalment.

A prominent religious personality of Murree Hills, a pir sahib, has described the aims and objects of Women`s Action Forum (WAF) as ``a rebellion against divine prescription about the Muslim woman`s true place in society.`` Thankfully he refrained from laying down the punishment for members of WAF for this rebellion and left that to the Almighty.

Despite the pir sahib`s harangue, more and more women in Pakistan are becoming conscious of their rights and wondering about their true place in society in a modern, enlightened milieu. Rather than looking at the perceptions of our educated women in this behalf, I thought I`d ruminate over some aspects of the masculine attitude towards them, especially of men like this pir sahib, who, I`m sure, must be a keen votary of honour killing of wayward women.

Loosely translated, the word akhlaqiyaat would mean morality and ethics. The dictionary meaning of both the English words is ``concerned with character and disposition, distinction between right and wrong, treating of moral questions.`` But why is it that among us Pakistani Muslims akhlaqiyaat is invariably linked with sex? When we say about a young man that his akhlaaq is bad, we imply that he tends to be promiscuous. And when a woman is branded as bad-akhlaaq it means she is sexually depraved. Why do we equate morality with sex morals only? Is it that we are obsessed with sex - and women?

It is a fact of life that we don`t trust ourselves with women. The present regime in Iran is a government of clerics. But their concept of purdah is different from ours. They maintain that real purdah means the absence of allurements in a woman and not mere hiding of the face. But when we see a feminine face we fear for our senses and scream, ``Cover it up, for God`s sake, or something will happen to me! Then I won`t be responsible for what I do.``

There are among us some hallowed traditions. Actually more hollow than hallowed. When young we were told that a brother and sister should not be physically close to one another. At that innocent age when a boy is willing to lay down his life for his sister`s honour, it is instilled into his psyche that proximity may provoke sex even in that sacred relationship. Thoughts that would never cross youthful minds are consciously generated. If this is not obsession with sex what is it?

A woman may not touch a man, nor shake hands with him. And yet in the entire Arab world, and closer home in the Frontier and Sindh, men and women who know each other shake hands, and without disastrous results. I can never forget that at the end of a cultural function in Lahore, the then Governor (General Ghulam Jilani Khan) was shaking hands with the artistes on the stage. When he came to the women performers he just salaamed.

However, the famous Pushto singer from Bannu, Mashooq Sultana, put forward her hand, and the Governor, a proud Pathan himself (though of Punjabi vintage) had to shake it. And Pathans of the Frontier are the most conservative in the whole of Pakistan in religious matters and in showing extra respect to women. I am sure Governor Jilani`s morals were not adversely affected by this physical contact with that lady.

During Ms Benazir Bhutto`s two terms as prime minister, foreign visitors were briefed beforehand that they are not to shake hands with her in public. The poor chaps must be wondering what they had done to be classed among untouchables. They must also be worried if anything remiss had happened to Mrs Gandhi or Mrs Bandaranaike when they had shaken hands with these Asian prime ministers in the past. Some time ago some newspaper readers protested in letters to the editor that (the late) Nazia Hasan and Zohaib Hasan, brother and sister, made ``dance movements together`` when they sang on television.

But do my eyes deceive me, or is it a mirage, when at every wedding mehndi I see boys and girls of apparently respectable Muslim families, and their fathers and mothers, and even grandmothers, dancing together? Should I indignantly ask what is the world coming to? And where will this insensate aping of the Hindu (and Jewish?) culture lead us? I suppose that is why the truly pious among us are leaving the country in hordes and migrating to the West in a bid to save their souls.

I once asked a maulvi friend who was bewailing the lack of purdah among modern urban women what he thought of sweeper women, domestic women servants, and the thousands of poor females who work on building construction, and the millions who toil in the fields where the agricultural economy would be shattered if they didn`t share the labours with their men. ``Aren`t they worth saving by throwing a veil over their faces and making them sit at home?`` I asked. He thought for a moment and then said, ``I don`t see them as symbols of female sex.`` What he probably meant by this was that they were hardly women worth taking notice of.

I once took two European women on a walking tour inside Lahore`s walled city. At one point a young man came close to the prettier of the two, just rubbed his shoulder with her shoulder - no pushing or jostling mind you - and went back to where he had been sitting with some friends, triumphantly fondling the place that had come in contact with the gori mem. Obsession, or just being playful?

Our dreams and fantasies are full of obsession with women. Unlawful sex may be both a crime and a sin, but we all want to be caught in the act because it feeds our macho image. In all this business the Islamic ideal of respect for women is left far behind. Anyway, who wants to be reminded of it? Certainly not the pir sahib from Murree Hills who was railing at WAF.

#60

NEPTUNE

You are not from earth & indeed different gallaxy !

3) Why should anybody be bothered if his/her spouse had physical affairs before marriage? As long as the spouses are faithful to each other AFTER marriage, there should not be any reason for complaint. (I assume there are no inconveniences like secret children and/or STDs involved here)```]

In ideal world ,rationally,logically,pragmatically,equitably,justifiably ,it shouldn`t ,but why the food suddenly becomes `not so deliscious & remarkable that it was a leftover from another plate`



4) Morals shmorals. For each such Majid I know of at least ten others (men and women) who have $crewed around for years before finally settling down with their 17th boyfriend/girlfriend and proceeding to grow fat, buy minivans and generally live happily ever after (well.... so far).``]

Serves them right ,if everyone in your company are screwing around from 13 (girls) &i5 (boys).We call them American stastics of 50% non virgins in junior high of schools here .Above 50% of mothers are raising kids as single parents too.

I am sure you never meant happy ever after with the SAME man or woman.Practically 90% of American divorce by the end of 2o yrs of marriage most 50% do within 2 years of lavish fairy tale marriages .

Bijli

Please provide the text to support your statement that I referred to or wrote about the topics you detailed in one of your first responses to this article.

Nasah

Thanks for the article that you posted (``Obsession``). I thought it made some interesting points. I was particularly struck by the author`s observations that women who work at low skilled or domestic labor were not ``objectified/eroticised`` by one of the subjects in the article.

Hobbyty

Its good to read your posts. Whats your response to the ``obsession`` piece? You too, Nasah

Aeisha

Yipes!

#: 67

saminashah

Bijli

Please provide the text to support your statement that I referred to or wrote about the topics you detailed in one of your first responses to this article.

Do you know how many Samina & Samia are ? Many .

Besides its not you .You never wrote a Chowk article that was published as you stated in one of your posts before.You are Saminashah ,AFIK,& not Samina for my reference .

If you go through the last 6-8 months articles you will find such articles one too many for me to even reember .Probably they are puropswely putto generate cheap increased traffic on chowk.

What else do you need to declaim a libel suit against me !

P.S. You & Zafar will make good team.Mutual admiration one

AeishA #60,

You could have spared us the lesson about the `birds and the bees` Islamic style.

tahmed and dulla-bhatti

Tumm jugg jugg jiyo maharaaj

humm toree nagarya mein aaye.

thanks guys.

Very good article. I wonder why desis are so touchy about discussing sex in public. Some hiiden sense of guilt... or some lurking fear of their incompetence. We need more such articles. And that hypocricy regarding sex has to go. Are you listening 40-50 somethings?

Saminashah

Dear Samina,

Nasah beat me to the it as I had prepared the article for inclusion on this board - I think it is very relevent. Also, I goofed and my post ended up 3 times - apologies to all

I`m only afraid that as usual we will end up discussing personalities and not the issues here, sadly. Already this has begun.

About the article, notice Pakistani treatment of ``Aklaqiyaat`` - and it`s unique relevence to sex (in Pakistan only).

As we discussed earlier, this is more masculine insecurity, pretending to be sanctioned by Islam, an instrument of control, of power.

Of the unique taboo of not shaking hands with women - Can one get any more ignorant? sex by osmosis? Ah yes, but, is it good sex?, really now! I experienced this myself when an acquaintance introduced me to his second wife, I put my hand forward to greet her, she looked away - the self flattering cow. It was all very awkward - and to imagine that some are justifing such behaviour as Islamic, to me, is revolting.

Dancing, social mingling, a general attitude that refuses to infuse more sexual meaning into the normal sexual tension between the sexes, can only lead to normal, healthy persons, with healthy attitudes about others of both sexes. Look around in Pakistan and you will see a kind of sick behaviour finding acceptance in society - a society, more and more of men - of hostility towards women - very unhealthy! They saw the cat who does not get to eat any meat dreams of...

I guess you know this saying as well - all very unhealthy!

``Gori`` ? Is this not he most demeaning thing you have heard? When will we stop refering to persons and civilizations by a color or complexion? When? It`s been hundreds of years that this rubbish as set into our minds - Varna - pure evil! designed

so that we devalue ourselves and value others ideas about what beauty is - sheer evil! and those poor others who may not be entirely aware that while we value them in such a way, we also despise the them and hate the fact that we do value them - Evil! - not unhealthy but Evil!

This was just so good a piece and Ms. Haji is an artist worthy of admiration, not only for her crafting skills but also her courage. The attitudes and circumstances she presents are part of our experiences, why deny them, why shy away as if children - lets confront these shameful attitudes. I find it sad that we can discuss the prejudices of others towards us, but show little inclination to challenge some of our own attitudes, especially such ignornat attitudes?

``Whore`` is especially demeaning and is pure aggression - even as it is desirable - such freedom? to make mistakes, to enjoy your body, or someone else`s body - that`s right she is a whore cuz she will make with everyone but you - No she is not also God`s own unique creation and no, her soul is not connected with God. really?

In such attitudes, to my way of thinking, we are neither true to our faith, to ourselves or our societies. It`s amazing how little conversation about such attitudes we have, even as we imagine ourselves adults. What really kills me is that this kind of ignorance is justified as an aspect of our religious faith, instead of a mask of our sexual insecurities.

Samina, if you get a chance, please read `` Saints, Scholars and Schizophrenics - Mental Illness in Rural Ireland`` by Nancy Schper-Hughes

You will be amazed that the kind of shying away from a frank and mature discussion as we witness on this board - is studied by the author in rural Ireland, and results from the lack of interaction with the opposite sex and is linked to mental illness and that Ireland used to lead the world in such illness before prosperity came back to it`s shores. I know you are sick of my reading suggestions - but you will like this book - by the way did you ever get a chance to read that Lilian Rubin Book - ``Worlds of Pain? What did you think ?

Bijili,

No harm done. Samina, Samia, Amina, potato, tomato...I fear that I will need to develop a cybername that`s unmistakeable. Libel suits? Do Sadna and Ylh know about this possible avenue of recourse? Just joking...please don`t flood us with posts yhl...

As for Zafar Sahib, I am afraid youre right; he and I both admire him..

Bijili,

No harm done. Samina, Samia, Amina, potato, tomato...I fear that I will need to develop a cybername that`s unmistakeable. Libel suits? Do Sadna and Ylh know about this possible avenue of recourse? Just joking...please don`t flood us with posts yhl... :-0

As for Zafar Sahib, I am afraid youre right; he and I both admire him..

Abysimal,

Lively piece of writing. It somewhat reminds me of the movie The Wedding Banquet. Has any one seen it?

Hunger for attention and jealousy are a terrible scourge for the dull and boring.

Reply Saminashah #75

I believe that was the winning goal.

:-(

Got to read this article later than I intended to. But must say that I throughly enjoyed it. Got some perverted pleasure out of the fate of that guy in the end.

Mona

#70

Abysmal

``Our parents were ecstatic, no one had any clue about our secret. He gave me a vibrator as a `moo-dikhai` gift,``

What ?you suffer from chronic back pain?& why haven`t you used it?Are talking of the same vibrator ?He is cheap woman,mode khai normally cost 3000$ diamond instead of 30-50$ vibrators!

hobbyty

As usual, you`ve come through! A couple of points:

1. In terms of the issues that you have expressed interest in discussing-perhaps someone (yourself, for ex.) can write an article specifically focusing on the those points.

2. It might be helpful to remember that the cyberspace harbors all of us,-maybe theres a way to discuss these matters that children don`t have access to. This is a family cybermag, as far as I know. Maybe you can investigate this at Chowk.

3. I am going to find the book (Worlds of Pain)that you recommended- I just finished a grueling, wonderful summer course! The second book sounds interesting. Have you read any Nawal el Sadaawi? If you havent, check out her fiction and essays.

4. I think there are some cultural/social similarities between Ireland and Pakistan, esp. Catholic culture in Ireland.

5. ``self flattering cow``! I can see the scene in my mind`s eye...lol

Bapu #66

[[In ideal world ,rationally,logically,pragmatically,equitably,justifiably ,it shouldn`t ,but why the food suddenly becomes `not so deliscious & remarkable that it was a leftover from another plate`]]

Well that is exactly my point. I know that pre-marital relationships are being demonised. What I am trying to say is that I don`t find anything logical about this negative image.

I am trying to draw a distinction between pre-marriage liaisons and cheating on an existing spouse. The latter is a reasonable cause for the blood to boil, but the earlier is not.

[[Serves them right ,if everyone in your company are screwing around..]]

I never said that. Please learn the distinction between `some` and `all`. In any case, the point you raise is irrelevant.

[[.. from 13 (girls) &i5 (boys).We call them American stastics of 50% non virgins in junior high of schools here .Above 50% of mothers are raising kids as single parents too.]]

Again, irrelevant. The issue was never WHEN one should start having sex. The question is WHETHER to have pre-marital sex.

[[I am sure you never meant happy ever after with the SAME man or woman.]]

Why not?

[[Practically 90% of American divorce by the end of 2o yrs of marriage most 50% do within 2 years of lavish fairy tale marriages .]]

Yet again, irrelevant. Most of the divorces you refer to happen due to incompatibility, violence or extra-marital affairs. NOT because one spouse finds out what the other did before marriage.

Aeisha

Actually, I must apologise for my initial reaction to your post-I was unprepared for it. I think you made some excellent points in it re: female sexuality. Very practical and no nonsense.

Zafar Bhi

I`m trying to develop my sense of humor-I think easy shots are the white belt of the sport. My husband, who has a great sense of humor, has commented on my approach: I`ll make a quip, then giggle for several minutes, and then comment (about my own quip), ``That was funny!`` He is often speechless at this process.

Dear Samina

Yes, Hafizurraman’s column is very interesting in the fact that it spans the two extremes – one, in which a woman asks a man -- for sex -- ‘‘will you sleep with me” – and the other in which a man will put to sleep a woman -- for sex -- and call it ``honor killing``.

The attitude of the misogynist Pir Sahib is aptly described by Daag Dehlvi in one of his sassiest couplets -- that goes like this:

Achchee soorut bhi keya booree shai hai

Jis ne dali buree nazar dali

For the Pir Sahib it is not HIS ‘buree nazar’ that is at fault -- it is the ‘achchee soorut’ that is really the culprit . It is not his own FEAR of his own “shahwani khashitaat” that is at fault – it is the fault of the woman that “causes” him to have those wet dreams.

Sooo.

It is the woman that must be punished. It is the woman who must be put to “house arrest” with blackened windows – it is the woman who must walk with a sac over her head – it is the woman who must wrap herself in a chador – it is the woman who must be treated like an untouchable -- it is never -- the misologist, -- the misogynist -- Pir Sahib who should deal with his sexuality by putting the “ainuk” of self analysis over his lecherous eyes.



As to why the poor Pir Sahib does not consider the ‘mazdoorni” or rural women working in the fields as “aurut`` worthy of the sac – because – they are “working women” -- economic partners of men – not Maulana’s “gundey” sex toys.

Isn’t ironic that -- the “lower class” working mazdoor women and -- the “backward” rural field-working women -- of India and Pakistan -- enjoy almost the same freedoms -- that the emancipated women are enjoying all over the Western world

All this chador business and the morality torture -- is reserved for mostly the unfortunate middle class urban women of the subcontinent.

Nasah

Well done! More support of the observation that class and socioeconomics do play a role in the particular brand of misogyny in certain attitudes.

Reply 70

Am I missing something here or is this supposed to be fact?? And who is Aliyah to whom this is addressed to?

Abysmal - dear interactor you have lots of answering to do : )

Saminashah - yes - The Wedding Banquet is hilarious. There is another one on similar lines - Man, Woman, Eat, Drink, Sleep - is what it is called if I am not mistaken.

aicha

I don`t know how religious I was before I started reading Chowk, but the more I read from my `enlightened`, `progressive` friends, the more sick i feel in my gut...call it instincts. All of a sudden, I need Allah and His wisdom because I`d be lost if I trusted much of the advice here!

In my mind, i see a sour grapes mentality. Deep down, I know that in an ideal world, I would want a life that`s different than what most people seem to be living here, and pragmatism says give up and join the melee (a self-defacing compromise?!).

But my instincts insist on seeking a higher plane of meaning...where a kiss is not just a kiss, but a window. It`s the same motivation that`s helped me excel in school etc, so if that pure motivation hasn`t failed me there, then it shouldn`t in other aspects of life.

People live their whole lives surrounded by friends and family and possessions, but if they don`t possess themselves fully, they will always feel truly alone. Worse yet, they may not even realize it.

When I think about it abstractly, Heaven is not so much a place, but that which is not Hell (marlowe)...and while many would settle for this existence in happiness, it`s only because they can`t `see` Heaven...

In that same sense, to me, True Love is not that which has been presented here, by Neptune or the `happy woman who married Adil`. But that`s their lives (this is not meant as a personal attack), and i`m assuming they are satisfied. Why settle for anything less? I`m worth it. I`m just saying that I know that I wouldn`t be satisfied, deep down, and i wonder if I`m alone on this, or if others agree...

I`m in love with someone younger than I, and as she`s from a different caste, she will, most probably, have just such an arranged marriage. And most probably, again, such a phone call will take place.

I got half-way through the piece, and then paged back in my browser window, it hurt too much. And then, gathered up all my courage and read the story to the end....

and then, pain...

but, I congratulate you... you`ve touched me enough to stop lurking... and maybe someday, start writing.

#82

[Neptune

``Well that is exactly my point. I know that pre-marital relationships are being demonised. What I am trying to say is that I don`t find anything logical about this negative image. ``]

Yes it is if you are an observent Muslim.

Any relationship of the nature of sexual, either mental or physical ,would be unislamic.Ishq,mohabbat,pyar waar,out side of married couple is unacceptable if you dont believe in western way of selectin of mate through ``dating``

hobbyty:

Agreed with the most of what you said. However, the tension between the sexes in our lower / uneducated classes cannot be removed easily. Especially since they arew not even educated to understand the ideas involved.

Another thing is that looking at sex the way it is in the US (not europe but US), its all a media driven craze. The fact that nowadays teens are more active in sex in pakistan is a result of this media projection. I think 10-20 yrs ago, even though there was some western influence, sex was less frequent, but if we notice, women and men from that time can also interact with each other. I look at my parents talking, I look at them talking to other couples. There is no tension what so ever. The key is in eduaction. However if we look at the teen culture now, in pakistan (atleast the upper or middle educated classes) its become more sex based, but the genuineness has gone. It is all superficial. Its interesting to see how the kids today are so much more different thean 5-7 yrs ago, when I was in school. I would blame the media to a large extent, especially the western one, for preaching amorality, or the lack of consequences in there shows. Its all about fun, not reality. When kids see that, they think its the real thing, but when they go through the entire thing, they will realize that they were seriously deluded. But by that time they are too involved in the whole game.

The point here is that before we start preaching about interaction between men and women, the younger generation needs to learn a lot more, about the consequences, about morality. But that is tough to acheive, especially since to convince a teen of anything, is quite an issue. If we take another look at hte US, nowadays companies have started targetting the teens for products such as cell phones, clothes, accessories etc. Why? Cuse they are the most gullible, and parents often give in to their kids. I hope we in Pakistan will not head towards this (though there are already signs in the upper classes of this happening). The sense of morality never gets instilled, and the sense of selfishness takes over.

The conclusion? Ban the western media :)

princes:

I found your post interesting. The trueness in your though and the image you have of an ideal world, is the one most people have when they are young. But as they grow, somethings amiss. Something doesnt feel right, reality takes over.

We all want to be happy, thats the goal everyone seeks for. But some where along the way, we get lost, by the chaos around us, we want to stay involved in the world yet we want peace. Its a sado-masochistic idea, a paradox, a balance very difficult to acheive.

Pick up the newspaper. If you live in the states, then most of it is all rosy. But they conveniently forget to mention the more than 500,000 people getting massacred in Rwanda, or back in the days, the 1.7 million killings in Cambodia. Sure, the world seems a better place in a sheltered environment. A place that has been cut off from the rest of the world, so you can think, do, imagine, whatever your heart desires. ``your`` desires are the most important. They are more important than your thought for a moment over the worlds ``problems``. (Please dont think ``yours`` as you personally, its more general). So what are the means that one is willing to take, to acheive the end. ``Ahhh, the capitalists dream come true`` : People are inherently selfish. They care only about themselves. So exploit this factor. Dog eat dog. Who ever survives in the end wins! Soon, the ``desires`` turn to ``wants`` and then to ``needs``. And then the desires, which existed purely in thought, in ideal, surface as needs to live.

My point? Practicality is a double edged sword. You acheive a great deal, but you loose yourself in the process.

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ayeisha #60

....... now i know why islamiyat and heat transfer and fluid mechanics were my favourite subjects ....there is nothing more thrilling than finding out that you can give sadaqa and have dirty sex at the same time ........ i don`t know what we muslims are always complaining about - who needs the kama sutra and dr ruth and the playboy advisor when you can get it straight from our own learned, perverted and goofy, but kinky, ulema ........ makes me wonder - should i be sending my kids to sunday school to be schooled by hijabed, cloaked, gloved and dark-sunglassed temptresses ? ......sisters in faith ......... what carnal, lickerish, lewd and lascivious thoughts lurk behind the veil? .......... oh, what i would give to find out .......

....... and where was i when all these wild parties were taking place? .... why didn`t mubeena proposition me ? ....... heck, i had side-burns to die for and could pluck one mean guitar and was always willing to share peeli-pati and mandies ........ then why didn`t i ever get past first base ( maybe second - my pride is getting in the way of truth ) ........ i was convinced that all pakistani girls had locks on their bras and would die protecting their izzat..... was i wrong ? ... should i have tried harder instead of spiking the punch ? ....... maybe i just passed out and missed the fun .........

.......... and what is this about dirty old men propositioning young girls ? ......... i think it is quite unislamic to suggest that there is anything wrong with a man marrying a younger woman - in some circles it would be considered blasphemous ....... and besides, it is a biological thing - something to do with men having the seed to sow in their seventies while women run out of eggs by the time they are thirty-someting ......... and i didn`t make it up ....... hey, who can argue with nature ... god knew that when he made the rules - four women per man, and if abdul is still not satisfied he can have a dozen or more concubines .......so let`s not go changing the rules because we have been corrupted by the decadent west and now wear pants and drive and vote and generally pretend to people .............

Aeisha

``As Imam al-Ghazali says: ``Sex should begin with gentle words and kissing,`` and Imam al-Zabidi adds: ``This should include not only the cheeks and lips; and then he should caress the breasts and nipples, and every part of her body.`` (Zabidi, Ithaf al-Sada al Muttaqin, V 372) Most men will not need telling this; but it should be remembered that failure to observe this Islamic practice is to neglect or deny the way Allah has created women.

``

I like this Ghazali guy. Does he describe the caressing and fondling part in any more details. What procedure should be followed while one is fondling breasts. What is meant by ``and every part of the body``. What if by abiding the injunction ``(fondle) every part of the body``, one runs out of steam and is not able to ``rub his seed``(in your language) properly or his seeds are wasted. What Islam orders women to do while her breasts are being fondled.

geez I never thought Kuran/Hadith etc are so sexy. Gotta read them. Translation available anywhere!

Karim Shankar

V sweet and laudable sentiments but obviously you havent heard of ``whats good for the goose is good for the gander`` : )

aicha

Reply Saminashah #84

Samina apa

Welcome to Chowk! Yahan tho hum sab yahi karthe hain. All in good fun.

Zafar

I think majeed`s wife is more to be blamed than majeed. He wanted this marriage so he went for her. She did not want him so she should have put her foot down.

I could relate to a lot in this piece, it was good but a little too long. I know numerous girls who become `available` when the choices that were made for them did not make them happy but that is not the solution.

I rather liked scout`s approach. Yes ... stand up for yourself and say it to everybody`s face that he is an uncle and not for me.

I liked the ending but the majeeds of the world do not end up paying at all, they usually marry in their early thirties and yes they do get virgin brides.

Re Bapu # 89

Mohabbat, ishq and dating are not at all unislamic though sexual relations with anyone other than your spouse are considered wrong.