My Sahib

Urdu`s ability to adopt ``foreign`` words in its fold is its forte. I can bet that almost all the so-called Hindi words mentioned in the discussion have at one point or the other been used in Urdu literature/songs etc. The point at which a ``foreign`` word becomes a part of an existing language is determined largely by the extent of its usage rather than by decree.

A language is not a static body of knowledge. It is a living, breathing organism that changes with time. How a language is written is sometimes influenced by how its spoken and vice versa. A very common example is the word ``kulfi`` or stick ice-cream. The original version was ``kufli``. The common folk mispronounced it so much that it ended up in today`s ``incorrect`` kulfi. The large audience ``Hindi`` movies command in the subcontinent will make the vocabulary of Urdu,Hindi,Punjabi and other regional languages even larger.

BTW this debate is not confined to Urdu only. There is supposedly a huge staff of people dedicated to research new words added annually to the Oxford English dictionary. I wish I could have listened to the debates related to the addition of words like URL or hip-hop!!

later

-sac

Correction:

The following should read as below:

``Out of sheer displeasure on hearing that, I never cross-questioned - why?``

`` Had I not heard that from women first, I would`ve laid the blame on men for their absurd sense of humor; but I could not do that for the reason I have stated earlier.``

Thanks.

General Question:
[Only serious replies will be appreciated!]


I wanted to ask a question that has been on my mind for sometime. I could never understand the reason behind the answer that I often recieved. If anyone on this board has some insights into this matter, please do share them.

Often times, some people have told me that if you want to learn a new language or visit another country to acquaint yourself with their culture and customs, you must know the profanities in that language. This is so disgusting and ridiculous that I have no words to express my shock. Out of my displeasure to hear that, I never cross-questioned - why?

Now, I want to ask that kyoun?

Just recently, a friend of mine after visiting another country told me the same thing that he was able to gather the ``profanities`` of that new country he visited aside from other interesting expressions. Surprisingly, the first time, I was told about this ``strange trend`` was by a female friend. In general, men do have a strange way of bonding with fellow men. Someone`s[male] comments on chowk testified that myth.

I would question:

- How can you bond based on that?
- What would be the end result of that kind of bonding? knowing the galian and buri buri bataen of each others` respective languages? Yeh Kyaa Baat Hooyee?
- Isn`t this some kind of mental sickness?

For instance, if I head out to meet a friend in Poland, I would love to learn a few things of Polish language, i.e. basic greetings, how you ask certain questions, polite parting words, some sweet poetic expressions[if any], basic vocabulary that will assist me in moving in that surrounding. Why would I like to know their rude expressions?

I have heard this rationale, both from men and women now. Had I not heard that from women first, I would`ve had laid the blame on men for their absurd sense of humor; but I could not do that for the reason I have stated earlier.

Is this normal to well-acquaint one`s self with the profanities in other languages than to what I have stated ?

Anxiously awaiting a succinct and pertinent response! (

Pankaj:

I was throwing a list of words that I have heard and sound sweet. They are not part of the Urdu we learn or we grow up with: reading munshi jee is something else. I will give another example, the word Dosh is used in Hindi and it sounds sweet, but we do not use that in our language in any form. The one used on our end will be qasoor. Nir-Dosh will be Bae`qasoor. Another example, Daesh is Mulk. I will never use the above words that I have told you, whereas the Indian Muslims that I have come across will always use the same due to the influence of their surroundings - hindi of course. On our end, this verbiage is not commonly used. Also, the Indian Muslims[I have quite a few Indian Muslims in my Halaqae`Ehbaab]are highly influenced by Hindi. On our end the influence of Farsi and to some extent Arabic is far more prominent than that of Hindi. You will always hear an Indian mention Urdu/Hindi interchangeably; a Pakistani won`t say that. [At least in my experience and from my part of the world.]

By the way, I threw the word Puch`chim(right or wrong) based on my knowledge. If you pick up an Urdu Lughat, it will say Puch`chim than what you told me. Though when I would hear the hindi speaking, he will say how you pronounced it.

Again, we do not use poorab(or poo`ro` as you will say probably ?), push`chim, utt`ar and duk`shin on our end - it is mushriq, maghrib, shamaal and janoob. Interestingly, for duk`shin(again in the dictionary you would read dukh`khun than what I have stated earlier). Personally, I would have a tendency to utter the latter than the former, but very rarely would I ever use this word. It`s only read in the Old Urdu Novels[hello to munshi jee]. Interestingly, the dictionaries would not give you duk`shin in the search, but when you check dukh`khun, you will find at the end another version of pronunciation(I guess the hindi one) and that is duk`shin - same for puch`chim as push`chim. Hope that gives some perspective. Your example on J and Z was senseless and was trying to cover-up for some inherent flaws, whatever. Also, in your lingo there is very little emphasis on aa`raab; so please do not make it seem strange :) If you were doing that to give me the hijj`ae`[pronunciation] that was very sweet. Thank you for the considerate gesture!

Take Care.


Studebaker:

I seriously think that rather than making an effort to start a conversation, you need to make peace with your Dr.Jeckyll and Mr.Hyde`s profile first. It`s simply disgusting and abhorrent, if that`s true - shows deep rooted insecurities and possible damaghi khalul. Please get over that first before you proceed anywhere. It may help you and your persona(s)[avataar].

hoping and praying for your speedy recovery!
[Allah Mian, please studebaker kee profile sae munhoos aur khauf`naak sayaa[combo of jeckyll and hyde] door kur daen. Ameeeeeeeeeeeeeen!]

A well wisher!


Anil:

Thanks for the note. My other post was addressed to someone else, you needn`t worry about that!
Please do not let yourself be distracted; focus on the following and its beauty:

Zafar/Pankaj

Re dual number etc.

It is actually interesting to note that differentiation into numbers (and specifically, dual number), or genders is a later development in the history of languages. The earlier tongues tended to have much simpler structures. The baggage of number, gender etc. appeared later, only to be slowly discarded through evolution. There are some good sites on this .... e.g. you will find interesting material in the link below (if you are willing to plod through serious amounts of abstruse prose):

http://www.geocities.com/indoeurop/archive/sinus.html

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re: Banjaara # 73

LOL

Banjaara ji, gurudev tau yehan buss aap hain....hum sub tau aapke pairon kee dhool bhi nahin :)

Zafar,

You are right, bro. Saaf urdu and shuddh hindi can be equally enchanting. I had a close friend who was adept at both; and I thought he was the luckiest dog amongst us :)

Bombay urdu? Now, what is THAT?

Reply Pankaj #67

I think that the dual form falls out of use because (usually non-immigrant) languages tend to simplify their grammar with usage. The plural could be used just as well to talk about two people as three, with the actual number given by other parts of the sentence, so the dual form fell out of use, and eventually out of day to day language.

Eklavya

There does seem to be a market for saaf urdu in India - I`ve always thought that this is because it`s associated in our minds with nawabi culture and its sophistication. Sadly Indian films, using Bombay urdu (misnomer, isn`t it) haven`t met that demand. I`ve always thought that it was sad that there wasn`t also a similar appreciation for shuddh hindi, which can be as beautiful in its own way. (Or is this blasphemy for a nucklawi mard?)

It was an excellent idea to translate this piece and you did a great job. The essence of the piece was captured beautifully. This glowing tribute showed us a side of Quaid that was not known to us. I am glad that Manto didn’t let his own opinion seep in and honestly narrated how a servant of the house felt for his beloved Sahib. I got a little teary eyed. It was very sweet.

Hope to see more of your work here.

Studebaker # 64

``You are talking to Pakistani muslim who are about as close to sanskrit as Banarsi Das is to

Arabic.``

Tumev maata cha pita tumev tumev

tumev bandhush cha sakha tumev tumev

Whatever you say is right Gurudev :))

Dear Zahra

(#60)

``Dear Hamid:

Zahra on Chowk was kind enough to point me to your web-site with translation of Urdu poetry. The English translation of Faiz Ahmad Faiz is quite powerful. I enjoyed it. For those, like me, who cannot read Urdu script, English translation is very valuable, but I cannot relate to the line in Urdu it relates. May I suggest that you may at your leisure add the Urdu lines in Roman (English) script as well.

Judging from your web-site, you certainly are doing a great job exercising both sides of the brain.

Thank you for enriching my experience.

ANIL

CC: Zahra``

(#65)

Let us sincerely hope you can keep this thread pollution free.

Best regards

ANIL

786/92

Here is an ABRIDGED version of a famous nazm by Ala Hazrat. No doubt connoseurs of Urdu poetry will appreciate its melody and beauty (Farangi Kush):

1. Zameen o zamaaN tumhaare liye; makeen O makaaN tumhaare liye // chuneen O chunaaN tumhaare liye; bane do jahaaN tumhaare liye.

2. Dahan meiN zubaaN tumhaare liye; badan meiN jaaN tumhaare liye // hum aaye yahaaN tumhaare liye; uTheN bhi wahaaN tumhaare liye

3. Kaleem O najee, maseeH O Safee, khaleel O razee, rasuul O nabee // `aTeeq O waSee, ghaniyy O `ali thanaa ki zubaaN tumhaare liye

4. Tumhaari chamak; tumhaari damak; tumhaari jhalak tumhaari mahak // zameen O falak; samaak O samak meiN sikka nishaaN tumhaare liye

5. Ye shams O qamar ye shaam O sahar ye barg O shajar ye baagh O thamar // ye taygh O sipar ye taaj O kamar ye Hukm rawaaN tumhaare liye

6. Ye faiz diye wo juud kiye ke naam liye zamaana jiye // jahaaN ne liye tumhaare diye ye ikraamiyaaN tumhaare liye

7. SiHaab e karam rawaana kiye ke aab ni`am zamaana piye // jo rakhte the hum wo chaak siye, ye satr e badaaN tumhaare liye

8. `Ataaye irab, jilaaye karab fuyuuz `ajab baghayr Talab // ye raHmat e rabb hai kis ke sabab bi rabb e jahaaN tumhaare liye

9. Na jinn O bashar ke aaTh pahar malaayika dar pe basta kamar // na jibhaa O sar, ke qalb O jigar haiN sajdah kunaaN tumhaare liye

10. JinaaN meiN chaman chaman meiN saman saman meiN phaban phaban meiN dulhan // sazaaye miHan pe ayse minan ye amn O amaaN tumhaare liye

11. Khaleel O najee maseeH O Safee sabhee se kahee kaheeN bhi banee // ye be khabari ke khalq phiree kahaaN se kahaaN tumhaare liye

12. Ishaare se chaand cheer diyaa ; chupe huwe khur ko pher liyaa // gaye huwe din ko `asr kiyaa; ye taab o tawaaN tumhaare liye

13. Sabaa wo chale ke baagh phale wo phool khile ke din hoN bhale // liwaa ke tale sanaa meiN khule razaa ki zabaaN tumhaare liye