My Sahib

Anil #51

[(this is in the only language - as I know, which has singular, two, and plural)]

All classical languages had the dual number. Other than Sanskrit, you will see it in Latin, Greek, Arabic and Hebrew.

Dear Godot:

Sanskrit is a fascinating language. It is the first language that was ``designed``, and therefore, the first to have a formal grammer (developed by Panini) to write Sanskrit grammer. It is rule based therefore very easy to learn. It was known as the language one could get 100% marks.

However, its grammer lends to context free sentence constructions (most of the time simple use of the verb would tell you about the subject and its relationship with the object completely and precisely). As a result, Sanskrit writers took liberty in their writings and left a lot for readers imagination and interpretation (Kalidas`s Shakuntala and Meghdoot are extremely good literary pieces).

I am not religious. However, I feel a need for spiritual values in life to complete it. It is with this view I have now tried to read Eastern philosophies. I do subscribe to what Carl Sagan quoted from the Rig Veda in his famous COSMOS series, that : ``Is God the best imagination of men, or men the best creation of God?`` A very powerful courageous question indeed. The beauty in my mind is that the human thoughts were evolved and allowed basic questioning and probing.

I will also find and read Edgerton`s translation. I have read an authoritative book published by Princeton University in 1950`s. This book is called ``Indian Philosophy`` by Dr. S. Radhakrishnan, who was the President of India, and prior to that he was a Professor at Oxford. I have found this book very fascinating.

BTW, I am very interested in collecting all volumes of good English translations of Manto`s work. If you do come across please do let me know.

Thank you,

ANIL

Dear Zahra:

Thank you for the web-site. Faiz`s work is quite powerful.

Beti, you may have to figure out a little more about your fascination with words with P. It is unexplainable.

I was always fascinated by the Urdu / Persian calligraphy. It is unfortunate that I was born shortly after the partition, and therefore, like others in my generation missed out on learning it. My cousin, bua`s (phoophi`s) son, was my role model while I was growing up, was completely astonished that he in no time learned Urdu on his own in a matter of a few weeks. He was simply attracted by the gazals and urdu poetry.

Sanskrit is quite a language. It is one language which was specifically designed for the court use, and romance literature (this is in the only language - as I know, which has singular, two, and plural). The emphasis on a couple is tremendous in many Sanskrit literature.

Many many years ago (70`s)I took classes in computer languages and grammer as part of my graduate work in Computer Science. At Stanford the Professor started by talking about Panini. Panini in fact was the first formal grammerian. He precisely defined the formal grammer to define rules for Sanskrit grammer. I further discovered that except for a few exceptions, Sanskrit grammer rules allow writing of programs to be compiled and executed by computer processors.

It is quite amazing how evloved human thoughts were many thousand years ago.

Take care

ANIL

Re: Anil, #43

Thank you so much, Anil.

I wish I had known Sanskrit (I`m too lazy to learn it; it is not an easy undertaking, you know...but may be some day...who knows.) Then, I could read the Gita in its original language, not to mention other Hindu sacred sriptures (for some reason, I`m very attracted to ancient Eastern sacred scriptures, and have read most of it from different Eastern philosophies.) I read a translation of the Gita (twice) by Franklin Edgerton, and a translation of the Upanishads by Juan Mascaro.

My knowledge about Manto is limited to have read only some of his works, and most of it I don`t even remember because I read them in my early years, between the ages of 12 to 16 (I then left Pakistan for America and, up until now, never looked back.) Thank you for the offer. But, as Azad would say, don`t put that reposonsibility on such incompetent shoulders.

Thank you again, Anil. It was so kind of you.

Re: Farangi, #48

Thank you for the explanation, Farangi. I read Milton`s `Paradise Lost` many years ago. It is one of the most profound works indeed. But I could not have guessed that `Gunjay Farishtay` came out of there.

It is sad indeed that, in our part of the world, it is so easy to steal someone else`s work and present it as your own (reminds me of poor Ibn-e-Safi and his `Jasoosi Dunya`.)

sac #22
Re frame stories, I recommend the Panchatantra.
This edition is a good comprehensive one :
The Panchatantra
Visnu Sarma
Translated from the Sanskrit by Chandra Rajan,
Penguin Books.

Godot:

Gunjay farishtayShorn angels(not bald!)

from Paradise Lost by John Milton.

Meaning Adams progeny---those who committed dismeanors and were therefore stripped of their wings & thrown out of paradise.

Humans,otherwise angelic,alongwith their frailities & faults.

PS:Even during his lifetime(post 47)his work alongwith a lot of fakes was being printed & published in India.Ganjay Farishtay was printed as ``Parday kay peechhay``.

Today in India Manto,esp.in devnagri script,is a big industry and a lot of spurious & fake material is being churned out with one or two true Mantos in it.

So the preface which a gentleman refered to here somewhere must be sprinkled with NaCl.

Wassalaam.

Zahra # 45

``Infact,most of the pretty words start with P.

Pata Naheen Kyoun?``

......and you forgot the prettier ones.

Prem, Prush, Pakhandi:)

With your creative imagination, you can write a lovely story with these three words.

Regards.

Anil:

Kindly check the following link. Go to the poetry section and you will be pleased to read Hamid`s contributions.

http://www.ece.utexas.edu/

Harpeet:

I agree with the gist of your argument. I had intentionally left it unsaid. Many times when I would present my American Colleagues, a translated version of our poetry and literature - they would ask me, ``I am sure you must have read this in your own language.`` If I have not, somehow I would feel guilty. If I have, there is a sense of pride in introducing, the thought process of people from our land, to them. But in recent years, I personally have not had much opportunity to read prose in any other languages apart from english and have been relying on some beautifully translated versions.

Anil:

On your comment about forced readings and personal motivation - you cannot generalize that. Thanks for sharing your experience though. I must mention something here from my childhood: My father`s late pophi jee was quite an interesting lady, knew hindi very well. When I was 5-6 year old, I remembered her teaching me how to write my name in hindi, on my slate with a nice chawk. As a child, it was a great accomplishment for me to learn that. My little heart would dance with joy that I could write my name in hindi[a difficult language] and when I would look at those alphabets, I would simply fall in love with their cute zigzag style and little windows. As a result, I would watch the amritsar tv very attentively to catch their dialects and verbiage. Their Punjabi used to be difficult as the one spoken on our end is far easier to comprehend. But then I was too young. By the way, on my recent trip to Pakistan for my brother`s wedding, I was pleasantly surprised to find a channel on the cable network on Punjabi Music. It was a very short trip and I was glued to the TV watching interesting dhol bhangraas :D

Lastly, the ones who are well-versed in achii hindi/sanskrit version - they sound very very pyara. That`s what I consider beauty. It does not mean that you have to go for a tayag in order to acquire that knowledge - but this is part of you and you have to know it! Your capabilities in English, French, Spanish and other Western Languages may be excellent, but they cannot compensate for your lack of knowledge in your own languages. My view!

By the way, some words that I really like and I think at times they are used in Urdu as well.
- Sanskrit itself[Even it sounds so pretty]
- Pita Je.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.
- Dhanyavaad[I mispronounced it earlier somewhere as Dhanaewaar]
- Pareechae[I guess introduction?]
- Eeeshwar
- Shikshaa
- Shamaa Keejyae`
- Pareevaar
- Parathnaa
- Kanyaa

In fact, most of the pretty words start with P. Pata Naheen Kyoun? I cannot seem to recollect all of them, but I will let you know waqtun fawaqtun. It`s very pleasant to hear them from someone who is well-read as that carries its own cute-touch. ( *_ *) :)

Take Care.

PS: I would like to forward you a link to a friend`s website who has translated quite a few poets. He is a Faiz`s fan and has done a good job in expressing Faiz`s emotions.

Re: temporal, #42

Thank you, t. So kind of you.

No. I wouldn`t know anything about Dinshaw Billimoria (if I did, I`d spell it correctly.)

t, you are the last person I expected who`d ask what a ``balisht`` is!

A balisht is an Urdu word that represents, when one`s palm is wide open and stretched, the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger; it is a distance of about six to seven inches, depending on one`s size of the palm, of course. Translating balisht into English would have lost the flow and the humor, so I thought.

That wasn`t a test? Was it?

Dear Godot:

The translation was extremely beautiful. A few words on translation from the original text. A few years ago, a friend of mine introduced me to Manto. I bought all of his translated work. Manto`s work that I bought was translated by a Pakistani (Khalid ??), an American (?? Leslie ??), and by an Indian professor (I do not recall the name). Indian professor`s translation was so poor that I simply gave up. I still have his translation in my library. Whereas translations by the Pakistani and American were simply beautiful, I did not stop until I finished the entire collection. Moral: a good author needs a good translator, an avid reader would figure it out very quickly and probably give a poor translation.

I have read Gita both in Sanskrit (my father would wake me up at 5:00AM in wintry nights of Northern India and make me learn while I was very young). I learned ntohing. Then last year I picked a beautiful English translation by Stephen Mitchell, and was completely engrossed. In the meantime, I probably became more spiritual and also the reading was not imposed upon either.

Like Manto, there are some very powerful Hindi writer - Munshi Prem Chand included. The message these writers give are powerful. Currently I am reading a translation of ``Aag Ka Darya``. To many purists original is the only thing, but to many others translation is the only way to read and learn.

P.S. : With a couple of friends, Raashid Mohisini and Razi Naqvi, I have talked to make a simple documentary of Manto`s work, would you be interested in such a project?

Godot:

...nice effort...translating from one language to another while maintaining the nuances and subtleties is an art form in itself...agree with others who have praised your efforts...and yes...you should try and translate more from urdu into english...names were mentioned..i would like to add that of mushtaque ahmed yusufi and intezar hussain...

[...That is why one day the biggest film hero D. Blemoria said to me..]
---could this be the great parsi dinshaw billimoria?...

...and a digression...i share the passion of watching foreign movies with sub titles...that is the only way to get the original inflections and subtleties of the actors...dubbed movies diminish that...

[...Fatima Jinnah jumped forward two balisht ...]
---what is balisht?:)

rgds,

t

Re: veeresh, #37

Thanks, veeresh. And also thnk you for the bit of valuable information you provided.

Syed Ahmed:

Thanks. Sayyids are considered to be descendants of the Prophet, right? Who are the Shaikhs?

Zahra, Godot;

I think that the trick with all translations is for the translator to be sensitively tuned into the tone and sense of what the piece says, understanding the nuances and subtleties of what is going on, and to translate, not so much merely word by word, but the dynamics of what the author ``means`` as much as he ``says``. Godot seems to have been succesful in rendering into English the tone and intent of the original Urdu, which makes it a success.

Unfortuntely we are not all equipped to understand everything we wish to (my knowledge of Urdu is limited to its spoken form where it intersects with my basic Hindustani) and there are worlds and galaxies of writing we would miss were it not for translations. To leave such gems uncovered would be neglectful, and cruel.

(William Shakespeare is the national poet of Germany)

Great poetry and prose know no boundaries.

Translate and teach us.

Re: Ras, #32

Thank you, Ras. But why the quoation marks around Godot?

Re: Zahra, #34, #35

Thank you, Zahra, for your very kind words.

I agree with your thought that something is lost in translation (that is why I prefer to watch non-English, ie, ``foreign,`` movies in the original language with English subtitles.)

Having said that, it is not possible for most people to know many languages equally well. If it weren`t for the translation, I`d never know such great work as `Madame Bovary`, `The Idiot` or `The Independent People`, not to mention the Gita or the Quran itself. I`m hoping to make available Urdu classics (at least short stories) to those who would not know it otherwise.

I`m touched by your emphasis on `sincerity.` You sound very...sincere.

Thanks for the tips. DesiStore popped in my mind as well. After 11 years of absence, I`m hoping to visit Pakistan in the near future. I`ll be looking for Urdu books there most certainly now.