The Real Jehad

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rjanjua:#414

``ubb aur bhee kuchh keh kay rahooN dunyaaN mein maatoob?

Pehlay hee khafaa mujh sey hain tehzeeb kay frazand``

;);)

(first misra is,I feel,not 100%).

WASSALAAM.

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Saminashah:#412

Muhtramaa saminashah sahiba

Farangi----does not mean white.It means undesirable alien.All immigration papers/laws carry this word--alien-(as one from outer space).Not `foreigner` not `non-american` not `other national`----but ALIEN(as in UFOs).

``Vaiy naakaami mataa e karvaan jaata rahaa

KarvaaN kay saath ehsaas e ziaaN jaata rahaa``

Aap tO mashallah educated hain naaN(aap ney khud humein yeh batayaa hai,yaad naheen---Allah Qasam);)--;)

WASSALAAM.

re: Farangi_Kush

``PS:Have lot of appreciation for Faizs`poetry & a lot of disagreement with his politics & ideology.He spent an entire evening with myself & two other friends in the 80s & I cherish those moments.``

Lucky you! Tell us something about the meeting, if you feel like it. Would also like to know what you find disagreeable regarding his ideology, etc.

I also agree that Urdu potery should not be translated into English (prose is another matter) - Kiernan`s translations were extremely dissapointing.

Regards.

maqam, Faiz! koi rah may jacha hi nahi

jo kua-i-yar say niklay to su-i-dar chalay

saminashah:#412

Mohtrama Saminashah sahiba,

[Child-like,bubbly,& spritely]---irrevocably & irretrievably withdrawn.

They were written with very good intent,but of-course you have the last word on that.

My apologies!

But you need not retract /lecherous .It has a certain zing to it.But /old man definitely hurts.;)Please retract it,if you will.

here is a kabir:

``Chalti chukki dekh kurr dia kabeera roi

inn dO patan key beech sey,gayaa naa sabat koi``

Please elaborate on this a little.Thanks!

aadab urz aur

WASSALAAM.

Kush Sahib,

I am sure that you will survive with being greeted with an Adaab Arz; my favorite secular South Asian form of greeting. How interesting to have a person whose name means Death to Whites chiding me on my manners...As for the Urdu comments, I generally think its disrespectful to mock another persons usage of a second language (the exception being your bully bhaiya Aamir), so I really dont care whether someone`s English is perfect. Since I teach many English as a Second language students, I tend to look at language in different ways.

I intentionally refrain from using Urdu, as I said, because it is not a language everyone at Chowk understands. I am sure that to your consternation, English is.

You had the good fortune of spending time with Faiz. Perhaps you could reflect on the meaning of that meeting in your life (privately). As for English translations, I`ve heard enough complaining about the perils of translation. Something is always lost in the encounter of pen and paper and yes, the invisible world made too visible would not be much fun, would it?

Childlike is not an improvement. It is, as you are aware, really patronizing. And sprite like and bubbly are not words you should apply to me.Accept that suggestion, and we may also retract ``lecherous``.

Call off your Aamir, and perhaps we may agree to disagree on matters other than poetry.Perhaps you would like some Kabir or Mirabai...

saminashah:#408

Buzurg Mohtrama,

Assalaam-o-alaikum,

Thanks for Faiz poem ``Shaam kay paich--``(zindaaN kee ek raat).In URDU it would have sounded better & you somewhat educated.As I said earlier you can impress the down-trodden only in Pakistan & India with the english language.

YahaaN bachha bachha angraizee haanktaa hai aur hurr jahil bhee.

I never suggested that you are a child,I said child-like(if you double-check it please).Well,It is generally known & accepted that english language has never been a strong subject for those from christain madressas(also known as convents & missions).Of course,they do produce good parrots & mynahs to replay the `accents`.

So [old,middle-aged,nymphic,udhhair-umr]-like saminashah it is good to know you have some kind of distaste for lecherous old men.Are you implying that you are more at home with lecherous young or much-younger men?

__________________________________________________

Now to retain your sanity please ignore this post,as has been suggested by most of your friends(myself included).

If you do reply then it would be good manners,as a muslim,to reply to my salaam first.I hope being `moderate` or `leftist` does not mean not to offer salaams or duas as a REPLY?or does it?

PS:Have lot of appreciation for Faizs`poetry & a lot of disagreement with his politics & ideology.He spent an entire evening with myself & two other friends in the 80s & I cherish those moments.

He was NOT too thrilled with any of the english translations of his work.He knew english & could have done it himself but he didn`t,right?.He advised me as to why it is not a good practise for someone whose mother tongue is not english,he himself included,to do so.

Just some food for thought for the Ba Ba Blacksheep of India & Pakistan.

WASSALAAM.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63161-2001Sep8.html

In Pakistan, a Crusade Stumbles
Anti-Violence Policy Caught Up in Contradictions Over Kashmir

By Pamela Constable
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, September 9, 2001; Page A22

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan -- At first glance, it looked like a typical police roundup: a row of sullen suspects forced to pose behind a table arrayed with confiscated goods as a uniformed officer towered above them.

But the detainees in these news photographs were not common criminals, they were jihadis -- members of Pakistani Islamic groups that send armed guerrillas into India`s portion of the disputed Kashmir region as part of a holy war. The contraband was a collection of posters and donation boxes used to promote their cause.

The arrests in Karachi last month drew praise from secular opinion-makers, but they provoked defiant outrage among Muslim groups across Pakistan. The groups are closely tied to this country`s military government, which publicly espouses
driving India out of Kashmir and covertly supports the guerrilla groups operating there.

``The government has no right to ban our activities,`` said Yahya Mujahid, a spokesman for Lashkar-i-Taiba, one of the largest Islamic groups fighting in Kashmir. ``We are not involved in any illegal actions, and we are fighting for a national cause. The people of Pakistan send us their sons and give us their funds. It is impossible for the government to stop this.``

The contretemps has highlighted the stubborn contradictions in the government`s recently announced crusade to curb religious violence and the ``gun culture`` in Pakistan, a national scourge that has spilled over from conflicts in neighboring Afghanistan and led to hundreds of killings here.

Last month, President Pervez Musharraf, the army general who seized power in 1999, announced a new anti-terrorist law. It bans any group or activity that employs threats or violence, that incites the public to religious hatred or that violently
promotes any religious, ethnic or sectarian cause.

Under the new law, the government banned Lashkar-i-Jhangvi and Sipah-e-Muhammad, two religious groups that have been embroiled in violent feuding between Sunni and Shiite Muslims, including tit-for-tat slayings of religious leaders in Karachi
and other cities. Their bank accounts were frozen, their mosques were raided and a number of their leaders were detained.

Public reaction to the ban was extremely positive, and a number of commentators praised the government for finally following through on its repeated vow to curb religious terrorism. Musharraf has condemned such violence in the past, but until now had not taken any major steps to crack down on sectarian killing.

The ban followed a less successful government campaign this summer to round up illegal weapons, especially automatic rifles, rocket launchers and other heavy weapons that flooded Pakistan during the Afghan-Soviet conflict in the 1980s and the
armed civil strife that devastated Afghanistan in the early 1990s.

Officials conceded that the number of weapons they recovered fell far short of their hopes, but said they had made progress in educating Pakistanis about the dangers of illegal weapons. In some autonomous tribal areas near the Afghan border, they said, local leaders voluntarily turned over arms because they were being used in tribal feuds and had become a serious
hazard.

``Our aim is to take Pakistan back to pre-Afghan status, to have a regulated society where weapons are under government control,`` said Interior Secretary Tasnim Noorani, who is in charge of the campaign. ``People have not turned in as much as
we had hoped, but we have raised public awareness, and people are being more cautious now about displaying weapons.``

The weapons-confiscation program and the banning of sectarian groups were causes that few law-abiding Pakistanis could dispute. Given Pakistan`s volatile mix of crime, guns and overheated religious passions, the prevailing sentiment was that such actions were long overdue.

But when officials then set their sights on the armed Islamic groups that train and arm guerrillas fighting to end Indian control over the southern portion of Kashmir, demanding that they stop publicly raising funds and advertising for recruits, the authorities ran straight into a political problem of their own making.

Officially, Pakistan insists that the decade-old insurgency in Kashmir is an ``indigenous freedom struggle`` and that Pakistan provides the guerrillas with only moral and political support. While championing the Kashmir cause at home to rally domestic support, the government also seeks to avoid being accused abroad of promoting international terrorism.

But covertly, the jihadi groups have long received training and aid from Pakistani intelligence agencies, and they serve as proxies for a major thrust of Pakistan`s undeclared foreign policy. Ever since Kashmir was divided between India and
Pakistan in 1947, both countries have claimed it, and Pakistan wants to keep the insurgency boiling as a way to force India to resolve the long-standing dispute.

Compared with the crackdown on sectarian groups, the government`s effort to rein in the jihadis was relatively mild. It ordered the groups to stop putting up public advertisements and collecting funds from the public. In Karachi, where several
of the groups have large followings, police seized banners and donation boxes and arrested about 300 people.

Nevertheless, the move provoked defiant condemnation from conservative Muslim groups and reportedly drew protests from some government intelligence agencies. Islamic leaders accused the government of selling out to the West, undermining the Kashmir cause and even doing the bidding of India, Pakistan`s archrival.

``It is obvious the government is trying to improve its image in the eyes of the United Nations and the United States,`` said Mujahid, the Lashkar-i-Taiba spokesman, noting that Musharraf will soon attend a session of the U.N. General Assembly in
New York. ``But by cracking down on the jihadi groups, it has only damaged its image in the eyes of the Pakistani public.``

Stung by the criticism, Pakistani officials issued a series of conflicting statements, and a military spokesman denied there was any activity by jihadi groups inside Pakistan. The arrested group members were released, and their leaders announced that
they plan to continue raising funds and promoting their cause no matter what the government does.

© 2001 The Washington Post Company

Kush Sahib,

For your pleasure:

A Prison Evening

Each star a rung,

Night comes down the spiral

staircase of the evening

The breeze passes by so very close

As if someone just happened to speak of love

In the courtyard

the trees are absorbed refugees

embroidering maps of return on the sky

On the roof,

the moon lovingly, generously-

is turning the stars

into a dust of sheen

from every corner, dark green shadows

in ripples, come towards me

At any moment they may break over me

like waves of pain each time I remember

the separation from my lover

This thought keeps consoling me:

THOUGH TYRANTS MAY COMMAND THAT LAMPS BE SMASHED

IN ROOMS WHERE LOVERS ARE DESTINED TO MEET

THEY CANNOT SNUFF OUT THE MOON

SO TODAY

NOR TOMMORROW

NO TYRANNY WILL SUCEED

NO POISON OF TORTURE MAKE ME BITTER

If just one evening in prison

can be so strangely sweet

if just one moment anywhere on this earth.

You of course are familliar with Faiz Bhai; capital letters were my emphasis, in case you missed the point. I have lots of poems Kush Sahib, by Hindus, Christians, Sihks, Iranis, Muslim women, Chinese dissidents, Latino leftist, South Asian Americans, African intellectuals...Our moon will never be snuffed.

As for your ``child`` comments, do control yourself. You are beggining to sound like a lecherous old man.

Gosh, if these people were psychiatrists, think what their patients must be like.
The US health system has a lot to answer for.

FARANGI_KUSH:403

dear cucumber,

This is truly an honour. It is not everyday when one finds a latent homosexual prancing about in a skin tight (leopard print?) shalwar kameez.

Sir your knowledge of Phillac objects is absolutely astounding!

Kindly share your discourse on how camel urine makes for a great lubricant and all the other wonderful things you can do to a cucumber with a moving train - Note: it is sunnah to stand infront of the train and greet it with the words of Islam...

WASSALAAM

#401

SAMINASHAH

``Chowk is not evil; religious fundamentalism is.``

This i know as an interactor here ,means Islamic religious Fundamentalism b/c on Chowk only religion discussed is Islam & others as it juxtapose with Islam since this is supposed to be Pakistani forum

This is coming from a parrots echolalia.That is the very reason ,the nick is so misleaing.How can a self professed & confessed muslim say fundamentalism which broken down means BASICS OF RELIGION-any religion.You moght as well say you are AGAINST RELIGION!

If having a nick which is not your real name were dishonesty then the very fact that Chowk & most of internet provides for such outrageous dishonesty first needs to be adressed.

How do you know my intent is to fool???.Wouldnt i be fool to continue doing which is a GIVEN fact.Too bad if someone is dumb enough Not take into account the anonymity ,secrecy & privacy that bind the forum with the registrant????

I have NEVER heard having more than ONE POINT OF VIEW is disease .If you know better plz. give some reference if you yourself claim to be neuropsychiatrist?

My opinion varies from various perspectives.I also feel atleast on internet one should not be presumptive ,preconceived & pretensious just by sex,age.nationality,religion.profession.education level ,etc which people invariably try to stereotype.MY VARIOUS ALPHABET SOUP OF NICKS IS AN HUMBLE ATTEMPT TO DE STEREOTYPE THE NICKS & LET EVERY ONE BE JUDGED ONLy BY THE CONTENT & not any other frivilous associated facts .

I agree ,the challenge is to keep changing but then i said i was only trying ,I NEVER SAID I HAVE PERFECTED IT.

Faarti Phus 402

[your child-like presence is refreshing.]

And your pig-like presence is disgusting.

DRUMS:#400

dear agnostic,

Where vocabulary exhausts enlightenment takes over.It doesn`t take much to debate someone with a cucumbers` brains.

Thanks for remembering your salad days.

I do not remember if I ever tried to pry into the brains of a KADDDOOO.Did I?No I cannot accept the dare.Thanks for even considering about a debate with what you consider a cucumber.You are really climbing up the evolutionary ranks.

WASSALAAM.

saminashah:#401

saminashah sahibaa:

``yeh laash e bey kafan asad e khasta jaaN kee hay

Huqque maghfarat karay,ujab aazad murd thaa``

Aur:

``hazur karo!key miraa tunn voh choab e sehraa hai

jissay jalaao tO sehn e chaman mein niklain gey

bajaai surv O suman meri haddyyOn key babool

Hazar karo!key miraa tunn lahoo kaa pyaasa hai!``

Huzoor e vaalaa kuchh tO daad deejyay key aap key

``what a waste...`` vaalee baat ney humm sey kyaa kyaa shair ugalvaliyay.

ugar aap khud ko hazrat rabia basree kee taqleed mein shamil samajhteeN hai tO bohut khushee kee baat hai.Buss urz yeh hai key Maulana Room aur Hazrat Rabia busree aur jumlaa tamaam soofia Shariat aur tareequat pur mukkammul karband thhey.Yaanee fundamentalist thay,islamee arkaan aur rituals mein ghurque thay.

Abhee unn ghareeboN ney Amreeka aur Madonaa kaa naam naheeN sunna thaaa.;)

agar urdu likh purrh sakteen haiN tO zaroor yahaan likhhayN.Kumm uzz kumm purrhay likhhay honay kaa to pataa chalay gaa.Farangi mulkoN mein to bachha bachha angraizee haanktaa hai aur hurr unparrhh yahee zubaan boltaa nazar aataa hai.

PS:Fundamentalist muslims are NOT evil,Margarine muslims ARE.

(now that each of us have expressed our rigid opinions & beliefs there is NO room for discussion.So let us not take it further than this.Then CHOWK is not evil either;)--;)---;).]

PS2:Almost EVERYONE who started off on chowk came with the self-awarded noble & lofty task of do-gooding & make-this-a-better-world B/S.After arriving in the (concrete)jungle the wolf in the dogs emerged.

It may not shock you to know that I have a preference for wolves over dogs.The wolves do not know the fine art of wagging the tail & becoming more loyal to their masters than the masters` own offspring.

Again,your child-like presence is refreshing.

duaa aur pyaar.

WASSALAAM.

Kush Sahib:

Thanks for the Rumi poem; I understand urdu perfectly-I choose not to use it in an exclusionary manner.

Since you like poems:

The True Sufi

What makes the Sufi? Purity of heart?

Not the patched mantle and the lust perverse

Of those vile earthbound men who steal his name...

Chowk is not evil; religious fundamentalism is.