Random Thoughts From a Far Away Land

Re: nasah, #102

Thank you for making a plea for the heinous crime committed by the Pakistan Judicial System (if one calls it a ``Judicial`` system) against an innocent person. In my opinion, the ``judge`` who passed the sentenced should be hanged, not the accused Dr. Younis Shaikh.

All Pakistanis with a shred of civility and decency should hang their heads in shame for this crime committed in the name of religion and justice. Where`s the Chowk article discussing this? Where are the Chowk Interactors crying on this injustice?

RSaxena

``Dr. Younis Shaikh, a teacher at a medical college in Islamabad and founder and president of Enlightenment, the Pakistani-based International Humanist and Ethical Union member organization, was sentenced to death for blasphemy by a court in Pakistan on August 18. He has one week to appeal this sentence. (See the New York Times International section Aug. 20, 2001).

Dr. Shaikh was arrested on October 4, 2000, by Islamabad police for allegedly saying that the Prophet Mohammed did not become Muslim until the age of 40 (which was when he received his first revelation) and that his parents were non-Muslims (as they died before Islam was proposed by the Prophet). According to the report in the NYT, ``The Movement for the Finality of the Prophet, well known for pursuing blasphemers, filed a criminal complaint and sent a mob to the college and the local police station, threatening to set them on fire.``

Hundreds of people have been convicted of blasphemy in Pakistan, among them moderate Muslims, Christians and members of other religious minorities. The law they are prosecuted under is extremely ill defined. Frequently, people don`t know beforehand that they are committing an offence. While we do not know if Dr. Shaikh will face execution in the short time allowed for his appeal or whether he will languish in jail, we do know that we must mobilize immediately to bring this travesty to the attention of the world community.

YOUR HELP is urgently needed to bring political pressure to bear on Pakistan to stop the death sentence from being carried out. Protests are being planned in London and Oslo.

PLEASE ACT NOW:

1. If you live in the U.S., please contact the U.S. State Department by calling Sec. Colin Powell at (202) 647-4000 or email him at secretary@state.gov.

2. Contact the President of the United States by calling (202) 456-1414 or email him at president@whitehouse.gov.

3. Contact your U.S. Senators and ask them to contact the State Department to bring pressure to bear.

4. Contact Ambassador Dr. Maleeha Lodhi at the Embassy of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in Washington, D.C. at (202) 939-6200 or email her at parepwashington@erols.com.

If you live outside the U.S., please contact the appropriate government agency to call this matter to their attention or see www.iheu.org for further information.``

mythsmoke,

Glad to hear from you, hun.

That pizza reference wasnt no pun.

It was a clarification,

An amplification,

So effective that it had you on the run.

jazba:

hehe yeah...everything from the kebab rolls to the manhoos mqm and jamatee activists in that lovely godforsaken place are as awami as is awami...have u by any chance had the chaat near the zoology department?...a little ahead of the photocopy wala under the lab kae pass wala bridge by the underground bhoot bangla type room and dinasour bone lab? if u havent been there u wont know what im taking about...but if u go there ever again koee degree shegree nikalwanae u must have the chaat under the lovely cement canopy...with wonderful wonderful elaichee walee chai..

and if you see a girl having chaat with extra papree and mirchi and diet coke wearing pink socksies working on an assignment frantically, do come over and say hullo

Oh what has become of the intelligent forum,

looks like the beginning of a temptation island quorum,

we had progressed so swiftly so far,

but the replies seem to be coming from a singles bar,

from TNT, national identity, to a country’s soul,

its all degenerated to discussion on kabab roll,

its all the fault of that Gawaar-dhan,

starting it off with the puerile pizza pun.

re: jazba99 # 97

Acerbic,

We all noticed that the first round too. So, its not really a hint :)

Best.

yups had that , but more so the kabab rolls, hamaray yahaan ( iba ) kay kabab rolls, thora

`` burger ishtyle `` thay ( as the term goes ) : means a lot of froth and little actual material.

the university rolls ..great taste for a reasonable price. aakhir wahaan kay kababiey ko zinda bhi rehna hai ...:))

take care and jazba99@hotmail.com, if iba needs more discussion, hint hint...am i flirting?..tobah tobah, mairey yeh majaal!

Acerbic Jazbati

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aah!

then have u had the kachoree right outside the iba gates within the ku campus by the genetic or (i think) zoology dept? (im not sure kaunsa dep hae)its mindblowing..and the kabar roll marra, kills :-)

Best thing expak do is invest in Pakistani stock and help pakistan. Good thought.Allah hu Akber. There is no god but allah amd Mohammad is last and final messanger

hey farangi ..agar aap issi mohallay mai ho tau

email me at jazba99@hotmail.com

waisay hum keeraanchee say hain

;)

Acerbic Jazbati

hey anny

university campus iba

aur farangi kuch ..aap kahaan ho?

i am on the east coast in the united states of aliens

;)

take care

Allah haafiz

Acerbic Jazbati

acerbic jazbatee

university ya city campus?

Sadna 87

You are too subtle for this crowd.

Multihead Monster and others like it -

Fools, ever heard of ``QED`` before?

QED

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#: 73

mythsmoke

Jay ,Saxena Zafar ,

neumerical advantage taker .

If you cant understand this post then fault my dear lies NOT with Pakistanis but with cacophony,gooblu do da ,Chooncho ka murabba ,ambiguity of Indian as usual.NOT ony Pakistan who in the world loves Indian.No body not even America ,they dont need you as much as Chioneses you kbow ythat therefore if they still hate & look down upon chineses ,imagine what Clinton & those country club walla in the south say about you,Watch some indian characters

onSimpson,Pbs,Sit coms,they dont talk about your doctors or IIT ,as if they think what you think of yourself.

``Mythsmoke sayz....Why do we have so many perspectives on the two-nation theory?

If i were to step outside my myopic garb...i can only say that nations and movements are not created on the basis of integration...have you ever heard of a leader who stands up to say that all`s well...we are all brothers ...lets go back to our homes....

One man`s revolutionary is another`s traitor....``]

i COULDNT AGREE WITH THAT MORE & EXPRESSED IT MORE ELOQUENTLY.NOTHING IS SO BLACK & WHITE VERY TRUE

[``ltimately for any tract of land that has a heterogeneous population.....the responsibility falls on the majority group to sooth the nerves of the minority....if it is unable to do that...well..then we`ll have two nations wont we?``]

IF MYTH SMOKE IS WRONG THE ALL COUNTRIES THAT DIVIDED AFTER 47 WOULD BE WRONG N &S kOREA ,n &S vIETNAM,BOSNIA & CROATIA ,bOSNIA & SERBIA ,ALBANIA & KOSOVO ,IN YOUR OWN TERRITORY STATES HAVE GONE FROM LOW 12 TO 22 OR MORE IN 50 YRS.I KNOW ITS NOT NATION BUT DISCONTENT IS DISCONTENT ONLY DEGREE OF DIFFERENCE DOESNT MAKE IT DIFFERENT FEELINGS..........EVEN THOUGH HINDU JOINT FAMILY IS RELIGOUS BUT MOST HINDUS NOW OPT FOR JUDICIARY OF INDIOAN LEGAL SYSTEM FOR DIVISION OF PROPERTIES WHY ,IF YOU THINK ALL DIFF. VIEWS CAN STAY TO GETHER??

``[now people may choose to judge Jinnah as an opportunistic demagogue (who, by this description, inflamed communal passions) but the fact is he identified a schism that `others` wanted to gloss over....``]

JINNAH WAS DEFENITELY SMARTER LAWYER THAN NEHRU ,GANDHI PATEL (?WAS HE LAWYER TOO?)JINNAH WAS NOT IDEAL MUSLIM OR EVEN LEADER .BUT WHEN YOU GO TO COURT YOU HIRE THE BEST LAWYER IN TOWN EVEN IF HE IS JEWISH & YOU MUSLIM.

``[I suppose what is disappointing is that the lessons of the past have not been learnt....hence we have the babari mosques, the barbecued priests, the Bal thackerays.....now we might choose to shrug and say well that’s just the fringe elements...is that the case? if it is who`s voting....? after all, it is democracy, which brings such jingoistic rubbish into power, doesn’t it? We’ll be tougher on Pakistan..we’ll review facilities provide to minorities…we’ll do something about that mosque….``]

INDIA IS SELF CONFESSED SECULARISTS.NO BODY HELD A GUN ON THERE HEAD & ASKED THEM TO SIGN THE CONSTITUTION.WHAT DO YOU EXPECT ,LIFE LONG OBLIGATION OR SERVITUDE BY THE 140 MILLION MUSLIMS JUST FOR THE ACCIDENTALLY BEING BORN ON THE WRONG SIDE OF LINE TO WHICH THEY WERE NOT A CONSENTING PARTY TO.

``[Sad commentary on secularism….yes I think the two-nation theory has failed but not for Pakistan.``]

HINDUS NEVER INVITED MUSLIMS CHRISTIAN OR ANY ETHNIC GROUP THAT THEY ARBITARILY DETERMINE (DUBIOUS DEFENITION AT BEST AS USUAL LIKE EVRYTHING INDIAN))WHO IS REAL,INDIAN.

HINDU CHILD IS BORN JUST AS A MUSLIM MOTHER GIVE BIRTHS NEXT BED OF HOSPITAL OR NEXT HOUSE.NO BODY PLANNED THAT THEY SHOULD NOT BE BORN IN THIS COUNTRY .WHY THEN TRYING TO PUT GUILT BURDEN ON HIM FOR BEING BORN FROM THE WOMB OF A MUSLIM WOMAN.INDIA IS MULTICULTURAL PLURAL & DIVERSE MUCH BEFORE PARTITION & MUCH BEFORE INDIAN CONSTITUTION WAS ADOPTED.

INDIA IS SECULAR B/C IT ALWAYS WAS MULTI CULTURAL MULTIRELIGOUS .SECULARISM WAS THE ONLY CHOICE IT HAD ,IT WAS NOT LIKE INDIA COULD BE ANYTHING ELSE.HOW THE HELL HINDU SUDDENLY WANT TO TAKE CREDIT FOR ```LETING THESES PPL LIVE IN INDIA``SOME OF THEM ARE EVEN BEFORE SOME OF THE HINDUS .

Myth

Good you took logic class. One shudders to think what you would have written if you had not taken that class. I hope it was not a Pakistani professor teaching you logic.

Zafar 79

Still, you are among those who have something I dont have - ability to talk politely to rank fools. I admire that ability.

Re: Zafar

``Surely you no longer need to beat the fictitious “homeland for Muslims” dead horse any longer? Bangladeshis don’t do that to justify their nationhood, and they have a country which is younger than yours. How is it that they are so much more self assured and dignified about their patriotism?``

Zafar, as a proud Indian Muslim, you are a thorn in Pakistan`s side. Just by your existence you prove that the TNT is garbage. There are idiots who will create convoluted interpretations of the TNT to prove that it really is valid, but that`s just convoluted reasoning.

That is a lot of baggage for a nation to carry around -- particularly one on the verge of bankruptcy and left friendless in the community of nations (other than the Afghanis and Chinese).

I can see where their insecurity comes from.

Mr. Gawaar-dhan

Looks like I touched a raw nerve with your libido, there. You might as well flip me the bird or stick your tongue out at me

My logic professor once told me that one should attack the argument not the one who proposes it.....hmmm...I wonder if there was any merit there?....I guess not…..

as for Pizza…..I like Pizza……I just had one…not too good….too crusty….kinda like India with secularism…..lots of cr(ap)ust but very little cheese.

Cheers

Reply Gowardhan #77

``You are talking logic with emptyheads who have made their life`s mission to justify bigotry.``

Very likely...in any case the only response I`ve gotten to a question asked in good faith is a resounding silence. Perhaps it was posted without being read or understood, or in the fond hope that nobody would notice that it made no sense? Still, it never hurts to ask people to explain something. (Oh it might hurt their egos but I`m sure they`ll grow back.)

Allah key panah GOWARDHAN

i see

moth smoke somewhere

;)

Zafar Al-Talib 70

You are talking logic with emptyheads who have made their life`s mission to justify bigotry. Brave man, definitely.

mythsmoke 73

Your brilliance is blinding. I am getting more and more convinced that Pakistan is headed in the right direction.

[If i were to step outside my myopic garb...i can only say that nations and movements are not created on the basis of integration...have you ever heard of a leader who stands up to say that all`s well...we are all brothers ...lets go back to our homes....]

You better stay within your myopic garb. I have heard of one man who claimed to be a leader. He was a sick man named Jinnah. He gave one speech in which he said we are all brothers and lets go back to our homes AFTER he had broken up a country.

Think again. May be myopic garb is where you belong.

[One man`s revolutionary is another`s traitor....]

Every traitor brainwashes his children to look upon his as a revolutionary. That is how some traitors come to called revolutionaries by their children. All revolutionaries may be called traitors by people they oppose but not all traitors are revolutionaries.

[Ultimately for any tract of land that has a heterogeneous population.....the responsibility falls on the majority group to sooth the nerves of the minority....if it is unable to do that...well..then we`ll have two nations wont we?]

No we dont have two, three, or twenty nations. It is the responsibility of all to live together. Soothing nerves doesnt help when you have people creating hateful religious hysteria and mob mentality. These hatemongers should be treated as criminals that they really are and locked away for life. Unfortunately India was not free to do the right thing then.

[now people may choose to judge Jinnah as an opportunistic demagogue (who, by this description, inflamed communal passions) but the fact is he identified a schism that `others` wanted to gloss over....]

This is brilliant. If he identified a schism, what did this false god do to bring people together? Nothing. He set about widening it because he got brainwashed by another hate-filled ideologue named Iqbal. To the children of these fanatics, they are both gods now. The rest of the world ofcourse treats them as dirt that they were.

[I suppose what is disappointing is that the lessons of the past have not been learnt....hence we have the babari mosques, the barbecued priests, the Bal thackerays.....now we might choose to shrug and say well that’s just the fringe elements...is that the case?]

It gets better. I suppose that you shouldnt suppose. The entire world is amazed to see a fanatic Pakistan fall apart in religious bigotry. Do they bother? Not much. They are interested in remembering an even that happened about ten years ago and for which there has been continuous talk since then. Do they count the number of incidents of religous place destruction in Pakisan? They would have but where should they begin? Why bring anyone to justice when the entire nation is playing the same game? Why should Pakistani newspapers even mention such events when that will fill up their columns every day? Just another day in the glorious life of Fartistan.

[if it is who`s voting....? after all, it is democracy, which brings such jingoistic rubbish into power, doesn’t it?]

Democracy! The favorite system of Paksitanis. They know all about it. They are experts. They can talk about it with confidence. Just dont ask them why they dont have it. They know all about swimming without having their dipped their toes in water. Why should they? It is all their in the book which is their constitution (constitution? which one? which piece of paper?)

[We’ll be tougher on Pakistan..we’ll review facilities provide to minorities…we’ll do something about that mosque….]

Pakistan is going to die its own painful death. Indians dont need to worry.

[Sad commentary on secularism….yes I think the two-nation theory has failed but not for Pakistan.]

Einstein speaketh. We should listen to this Einstein on secularism even though this Einstein cant tell secularism from pizza.

Fartistanis tried two nation theory. I agree it is working for them. That is why all the real oppressed nations suffering under the jackboots of the historical absurdity called Pakistan will soon be free.

FIRST FRIDAY SERMON DELIVERED BY PROPHET MOHOMMED SALAL LAHE WALE WASSALUM

Assalam alaikum,

Imagine, you have left Mecca and are resettling in Medina. It is the first

year of Hijra, the 12th of the month of `Rabi ulawwal`, and you have reached

the locality of Bani (tribe of) Salim, from Qubba, where along with 100

other Muslims, you sit attentively as Prophet Muhammad, upon whom be peace,

stands and delivers his first (Friday/Juma) sermon:

``All praise and glory is for Allah - I praise Him and seek His Help,

Forgiveness and Guidance. In His Alone I lay my faith and I do not disobey

Him. Nor, do I hate those who do not obey obey Him. I bear witness that

there is none worthy of being worshipped other than Allah, who is One and

has no partner, I Muhammad being His Servant and His Apostle. He has sent

Muhammad for guidance, light and admonition at a time when there has been no

Apostle in the world for a long time as of which knowledge has declined and

distraction has enhanced.

The Prophet has been sent nearing the final Day. Whoever obeys His Apostle

will find the way and whoever disobeys him will be lost and fallen from his

position and dammed in distraction. O Muslims! I advise you to fear Allah.

And the best advice which a Muslim can give to another Muslim is to prepare

himself for the next world and ask him to fear Allah.

O People! Refrain yourselves from such things as Allah has forbidden - and

there is no better counsel than this. Remember! Piety will be the best help

in the next world, for one who acts fearing Allah. One who mends his secret

and opens matters between Allah and himself and is sincere in his conduct

will enjoy his deeds in terms of remembering Allah (Zikr) in the world and

in terms of a vast treasure after his death. But whoever fails to do as such

will prefer that his deeds are kept away from him.

Allah ordained you to fear His Being - and Allah is Most Kind to His

Servants. And whoever believed that the order of Allah are true and

fulfilled His promises, for him are the words of Allah thus: `There is

change in our laws and we do not do injustice to our humble servants`.

Muslims! In all your current and future affairs, open and secret actions,

bear in mind the Fear of Allah. Because those who fear Him their Vices are

discounted and their rewards are enhanced. Men of piety are those who will

meet their higher objective. It is the piety alone which keeps away Allah`s

curse, His wrath and punishment. It is piety, of course, that enlightens the

face, pleases Allah and raises a persons status.

Muslims! Enjoy your life bounteously but do not give uo Divine rights upon

you. For the purpose is a course of life, and Allah has taught you His Book

and showed you the path that the righteous and transgressors are seperate

from one another.

O you people! Allah has treated you finely - thus you too should treat

others likewise. Treat enemies of Allah as your own enemies and make

endeavours in the path of Allah wholeheartedly with full devotion. He has

determind you as chosen and has named you Muslims so that one who destines

to doom is doomed for relevant reasons and one who enjoys the promised life

also does it for the relevant cause. And all the virtues depend upon Allah`s

help.

O you people! Memorise Allah and do actions for the life of the hereafter.

Because whoever mens his affair with Allah, Allah mends his affairs with

other people. Verily, orders of Allahprevail over His servants and none can

order Him any way. Allah is Master of His servants and servants have no

claim over Him - Allah is the Greatest and derive strength to do virtous

actions through His Greatness.``

[From: Rahmatul Lil Alameen (Mercy for the World), Nadvi (1933), pp 74-79]

jazbaati:#71

Young muslims like yourself are the true beacon-holders for tomorrows Pakistan & Ummah.

Keep honing your writing skills on various fora and do not heed the naysayers.

This is just the practising ground to flex your muscles.Never abandon your language & culture to acquire new one.Both can run in tandem.

Profficiency in any `modern` language is a MUST but never at the expense of your own.In fact anyone who knows his own language well ALWAYS excels at the acquired one.

Translation exercises are good to test oneself.

Which city you reside in?

WASSALAAM.

Why do we have so many perspectives on the two-nation theory?

If i were to step outside my myopic garb...i can only say that nations and movements are not created on the basis of integration...have you ever heard of a leader who stands up to say that all`s well...we are all brothers ...lets go back to our homes....

One man`s revolutionary is another`s traitor....

Ultimately for any tract of land that has a heterogeneous population.....the responsibility falls on the majority group to sooth the nerves of the minority....if it is unable to do that...well..then we`ll have two nations wont we?

now people may choose to judge Jinnah as an opportunistic demagogue (who, by this description, inflamed communal passions) but the fact is he identified a schism that `others` wanted to gloss over....

I suppose what is disappointing is that the lessons of the past have not been learnt....hence we have the babari mosques, the barbecued priests, the Bal thackerays.....now we might choose to shrug and say well that’s just the fringe elements...is that the case? if it is who`s voting....? after all, it is democracy, which brings such jingoistic rubbish into power, doesn’t it? We’ll be tougher on Pakistan..we’ll review facilities provide to minorities…we’ll do something about that mosque….

Sad commentary on secularism….yes I think the two-nation theory has failed but not for Pakistan.

Killings in Kashmir

In his column titled ``Musharraf and the great divide`` (Aug 21), Kuldip Nayar laments the failure of the Pakistani press and political leaders to `condemn` killing of Hindus (not Kashmiris) in Doda. A few paragraphs further he writes, ``I am not denying killing of the innocents (he does not call them Muslims) in Kashmir ..... even the High Court`s decision on hundreds of writs to produce the missing persons remains unimplemented``.

For these victims of state terrorism he only wishes `the press and human rights groups were more active and the government more responsive`.

The number of these people runs into tens of thousands. One would have liked his mention of the number of `secular` Indians belonging to the majority community who had regretted, deplored or condemned this barbarity.

Mr Nayar urges New Dehli to expose the Musharraf government in the international arena and to persuade America (bilateralism, where are you?) to name the terrorist organizations and the country they are operating from.

He, however, refrains from extending the same advice to Colombo. He proudly mentions the exposition by the Indian press of the fact that the Indian army was training LTTE. He also must be aware of the disclosure by an insider that the Indian army trained, financed, equipped and launched Mukti Bahini in the then East Pakistan.

Added to this are the draconian measures now extended virtually to the whole of J&K that empower members of the security forces to shoot anyone ``suspected`` of being a terrorist. Isn`t all this enough to qualify India for the dubious distinction of being a state sponsoring terrorism? As if this was not enough, the home minister of `liberal, secular and democratic` India now wants to grant amnesty to those charged with violation of human rights. Do we hear any protest from across the border?

Regarding the underlying cause of all this, his advice to the government is to solve the problem politically. In that he recommends granting more autonomy and changing the interlocutor for Kashmir.

The only problem is that Kashmiris are only too well aware of the various autonomy agreements. The first one was negotiated by Sheikh Abdullah and incorporated in article 370 of the Indian constitution. While he moved to a prison cell the central government began the process of diluting it. In the 80s he came out to negotiate another agreement with Parthasarthy of Prime Minister Indra Gandhi`s office. Two decades later, his son Farooq wants to try the same remedy. He, however, is faced with a no nonsense government dominated by the Sangh Parivar and not surprisingly got a short shrift.

It is a bit too late for cosmetics. If the aim is to buy time for Advani to deal with the situation in his own way then the suggestion could have some meaning. I do not believe Kuldip wants that. But then why shy from reality?

APHC or Hizb have no preference for interlocutors. They have only demanded the removal of preconditions, i.e. talks to be held within the Indian constitution. It is for enlightened people like Kuldip Nayar to determine if the constitution takes priority over human life, be that of `militants`, security forces or innocents ... both Hindus and Muslims. Also how much blood needs to be shed before it is proved that Kashmiris deserve a hearing?

MUHAMMAD QURBAN

Islamabad

janaab e walaa

aap ka andaz khaasa anokha hai aur jiss jazbay say aap likhtay hain, banda e fidwey uss ko `` salam `` karta hai...farangi kush, khushi huwey kay aap bhi iba mai thay...

looking forward to having a chai somewhere someplace, i mean gosh, ab yeh na kehna kay mai gay hoon, paleez, you know ur classical brown sahib baba black sheep types think that if two makes like to hang out they are gay, or if two girls talk with each other ( only ) , they are lesbian, khair iss mudpday pay baad mai baat hoagey

i am at jazba99@hotmail.com

ab L.B na samajhna khuda ra

take care and likhtay raho, pakistan needs u, waisay, aik din jald chalay gay...inshaALLAH!!

Walaikum as salaam and jeetay raheyaien

Reply Sarwar, Anybody #19

“By its very nature, nation is a construction. The problem arises when you treat the nation as a fixated political entity. It becomes a problem when it is the official construction of the nation than a fact. In Pakistan`s case it is the self projections of the nation which are exclusionary, while in India the very process or rabid insistence of inclusion has resulted in exclusion.”

Can anybody explain what “…while in India the very process or rabid insistence of inclusion has resulted in exclusion” means?

The most sense I can make of this is that India includes all Indians in its definition of Indian, but people who want to remain outside of this definition (or Indian-ness) are then excluded from being considered Indian (which is what they wanted) but they now do not like to be excluded from being considered Indian because they wish to remain outside the definitioin of Indian (which is broad enough to include all Indians)…

Which seems not to make any sense.

Somebody, anybody, please help.

Zafar

Reply Jay #27

Jayaprakashji

I have disagreed with your posts in the past, but hats off to you for this one. Kerala is indeed a blessed place.

Zafar

Reply Jazbati #38

Jazbatiji

“[Indians have] A complex that arises from the ``reality`` of Pakistan, that exists, and inshaALLAH will exist until QIYAMAH.”

Before interacting with many Pakistanis on Chowk I had (like many Indians) believed that Pakistanis and Indians are fundamentally the same. After interacting here, I find I must modify my belief. We are significantly different from each other. Even if two nations did not exist before 1947, they do exist now.

So please accept my sincere best wishes for your country’s future.

“Good or bad, in ramshackle condition or miserable is not the point. IT EXISTS, only to haunt you all of the fact that Muslims, with the miracle of Allah the ALmighty succeeded in getting themselves a homeland.”

On the other hand, why do you need to imply that Indian Muslims don’t have a homeland in India when stating how proud you are of Pakistan?

Pakistan has been around for more than fifty years, it’s not going to disappear any time soon. Surely you no longer need to beat the fictitious “homeland for Muslims” dead horse any longer? Bangladeshis don’t do that to justify their nationhood, and they have a country which is younger than yours. How is it that they are so much more self assured and dignified about their patriotism?

Zafar

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WHEN THE FOX IS MADE TO GUARD THE CHICKEN COUP .

BJP Vice PREsIDENT ``zabardasti``KEEPS ON BLAMING MUSLIMS FOR DAMAGE NOT CAUSED BY THEM ACCORDING TO POLICE CHIEF PANDE

Online edition of India`s National Newspaper

Monday, August 27, 2001

Fundamentalists behind violence: Khurana

By Our Special Correspondent

AHMEDABAD, AUG. 26. The BJP national vice-president, Mr. Madanlal Khurana, who is in-charge of Gujarat affairs, today accused ``fundamentalists`` of deliberately creating the disturbances in Ahmedabad by giving ``communal and political colour to a non- issue``.

Even as the Ahmedabad city Police Commissioner, Mr P.C. Pande, said that a portion of a place of worship was damaged by a police vehicle while negotiating a turn, Mr. Khurana told mediapersons that it was damaged by fundamentalist elements. Stating that the Police Commissioner was ``no judge to decide the truth``, Mr. Khurana said the facts would be known only after the report of the intelligence bureau inquiry, ordered by the Chief Minister, Mr. Keshubhai Patel.

He said the intelligence bureau would inquire about the elements behind the pamphlets in the name of ``Muslim Traders Association`` accusing the Bajrang Dal activists of attacking the Muslim vendors for refusing to contribute for the Ganesh Mahotsava. Claiming that the Dal activists were not involved in the attack, Mr. Khurana said the ``fundamentalists`` blew the incident out of proportion to give it communal and political colour and issued a bandh call.

Curfew relaxed

Meanwhile, the situation in the Dariapur locality remained peaceful and the two-hour curfew relaxation given this evening for women and children passed off without any untoward incident. The police denied rumours that a person wounded in stabbing in Kalupur locality on Friday died in hospital today.

Mr. Khurana is here in connection with the Sabarmati Assembly and the Sabarkantha Lok Sabha byelections scheduled for September 20.

Send this article to Friends by E-Mail



Online edition of India`s National Newspaper

Monday, August 27, 2001

By Our Special Correspondent

AHMEDABAD, AUG. 26. The BJP national vice-president, Mr. Madanlal Khurana, who is in-charge of Gujarat affairs, today accused ``fundamentalists`` of deliberately creating the disturbances in Ahmedabad by giving ``communal and political colour to a non- issue``.

Even as the Ahmedabad city Police Commissioner, Mr P.C. Pande, said that a portion of a place of worship was damaged by a police vehicle while negotiating a turn, Mr. Khurana told mediapersons that it was damaged by fundamentalist elements. Stating that the Police Commissioner was ``no judge to decide the truth``, Mr. Khurana said the facts would be known only after the report of the intelligence bureau inquiry, ordered by the Chief Minister, Mr. Keshubhai Patel.

He said the intelligence bureau would inquire about the elements behind the pamphlets in the name of ``Muslim Traders Association`` accusing the Bajrang Dal activists of attacking the Muslim vendors for refusing to contribute for the Ganesh Mahotsava. Claiming that the Dal activists were not involved in the attack, Mr. Khurana said the ``fundamentalists`` blew the incident out of proportion to give it communal and political colour and issued a bandh call.

Curfew relaxed

Meanwhile, the situation in the Dariapur locality remained peaceful and the two-hour curfew relaxation given this evening for women and children passed off without any untoward incident. The police denied rumours that a person wounded in stabbing in Kalupur locality on Friday died in hospital today.

Mr. Khurana is here in connection with the Sabarmati Assembly and the Sabarkantha Lok Sabha byelections scheduled for September 20.

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Jazbaa:#64

``Dil sey shauque e rukh e nukoo naa gayaa

taaknaa jhaanknaa kabhhoo naa gayaa``

Khush raho.Murd kee aankh kaa dumm subb sey aakhir mey nikalta hai.Muzhdaa ho,key yeh silsilaa kabhee khatam naa ho gaa.

Hum sey gavaahee lailo.

to kyaa iba karachi mein thay?--humm bhee vahaan javaani barbaad kar chukau haiN.buss ubb ziadaa munh naa khulvaaO varnaa tumharay ubba maraingay(tumhain) key kinn badmaash budhhon kee sohbat mein purr gayaa.

WASSALAAM.

shukriya shaikh sahab mythsmoke

the comment was recieved with relief. of late most people have been showing us the `` how to `` of `` cut & paste `` on this forum.

good to know that you miss the dil pasand chaat, student key biriyaani, sabris nehari and the neighbors daughter...i miss the last one the most, she was damn good looking wasnt she?:)..i bet she is here in america, so i might as well be on the look out. wasiay jo maza traditional TAANKA JHAANKEY mai hai, woh `maaadren` mating habits mai kahaan...women have become easy these days, or so i think, but before i catch someone`s wrath, i will avoid this topic for now. will have something coming soon, so be on the lookout

waisay, ``iba`` nay kuch sikhaya ho ya na ho aik cheez tau aa geyey hai: buk buk karna

miss ya all, especially the iba kilaas of 97

( not 98!!)

take care and hey there is a student biriyani in FLUSHING newyork, havent been there, tum aao tau daikhtay hain

Pakistan Zindabad...lets do the picknick in december

Allah haafiz

Acerbic Jazbati ,,, khaali jazbati bhi chalay ga!

hmm......let me elucidate on what i miss in pakistan...

- bundu khan

- dil pasand chaat

- shaam ki chai..on the roof....peeping at the

neighbour`s daughter

- students biryaani

- sabir`s nihari

the rest is just grammatical masturbation....somebody or the other will fix it...show me a messiah and i will follow him

aur jazbaati sahib..iba ney kuch zyada sikha diya hai aapko....

NOTE TO DELUDED YOUNG BRATS

For information of deluded &under the wrong impression of feeling worthwhile just on there ability of `key board skills` you have no idea how much more is needed in life besides `hand eye cordination `that you assume is the ultimate .Besides younger you are the better your REFLEXES are .

So those who criticize my spelling ,its not that you know BETTER english its just that we wrote with pens most of our lives & then dictated to our dictaphones.

Dear Shakir:

#56

Thanks for posting Anwar Abbasi column. Now that is a REAL investigative reporting.

This brazen nepotism in appointments is ironic for the Musharraf government which claims to be fighting corruption to justify its existence.

This news item may be of some relevance to the double standard in corruption.

((RAWALPINDI, Aug 23: The Prosecution Witnesses presented the relevant record in former Speaker National Assembly Yousaf Raza Gilani`s case in the Accountability Court today.

The Prosecution Witnesses in their statements confirmed that illegal appointments were made by the accused during his tenure.))

Question: when Messiah Musharraf will be brought before the NAB court - paba jolaaN -- folks?

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FOR WHOM THE BELL ,NO, THE YELL HOWLS

Maulana Razi, a leader of Jaish-i-Mohammad, said: ``Fund-raising for jihad is Sunnat. We are working for the glory of Islam and the Kashmir cause. We will not remove the boxes and signboards as the government`s move is merely an attempt to please western powers.`` He said the leaders of Muttahida Jihad Council would hold talks with the government on the issue.

The Lashkar-i-Taiba`s Information Secretary Imran Alam blamed the government for ``appeasing the western powers`` by imposing a ban on jihadi outfits to collect donations or install signboards outside their offices.

``We can remove the boxes placed at public places for fund- raising and if the government removes the signboards from our office, we will not resist as people desiring to donate will keep extending financial support to the jihadi outfits

THE ABOVE IS FROM DAWN OF TODAY. If mushy is after MQM in the guise of stopping terrorism, it is fine. But lasker e toiba is a different kettle of fish, no, mutton. It should be the beginning of the end, a shaheen in the making.

Reply MaheshG #443

Mashallah MaheshG, we should all thank you for helping this intellectual nova light up the dark night of our lives here on Chowk. Till now we were largely restricted to the dull and prosaic, we were limited by the humdrum and everyday, but now, lo, imagination combines with....Thank you, thank you, thank you! God is Great.

www.saharaforlife.org

Is this not a scandal?

By Ansar Abbasi

ISLAMABAD: While there are no big corruption scandals of the Musharraf Government so far, one that would come precariously close is the huge party going on in all the ministries to appoint friends and favourites as consultants, over 210 already identified, and the count goes on.

The redeeming factor, though, may be that President and Chief Executive Pervez Musharraf is not fully aware of the complete picture as yet as his secretariat was still trying to gather, at least until a few weeks back, the details of how many ministries had appointed how many consultants and at what cost. But his test would lie in what he does about the situation.

The 211 consultants, mostly getting huge salaries, counted so far were all engaged by various ministries and divisions. Those employed by the NRB, NAB, the Chief Executive`s Secretariat itself and the Presidency are yet to be accounted for.

``These appointments depict a very sorry picture of financial discipline and show the generosity of those at the helm of affairs with which the public money is distributed amongst favourites as bounty,`` an observer of the situation commented.

A vast majority of the consultants have been appointed purely on personal liking, pick and choose basis and without advertising the consultancies. Mostly the ministers and the top bureaucrats offered the ``bounty`` to their friends, acquaintances and relatives. In some cases commissions and kickbacks are also alleged.

One of the ministers even recently publicly admitted to offering consultancies to her friends. A few ministries have gone so deep into this trend that they are engaging consultant after consultant. Communications ministry tops the list but is ironically followed by the finance division, which professes to teach financial discipline to others.

Figures available with the Chief Executive Secretariat show that the communication ministry alone engaged 61 consultants followed by 29 by the finance division. The other ministries/divisions that have engaged a large number of consultants include education division 18; revenue division 17; privatisation 14; commerce division 13; industries and production 13; cabinet division 11; water and power 8.

Perturbed over the situation, the Chief Executive Secretariat recently inquired as to how such a huge number of consultants were engaged, that too without seeking prior approval of the chief executive. The Chief Executive Secretariat also set up a high-level committee to review these appointments besides streamlining them in the future. Analysts say by hiring such a huge number of consultants, it appears the Musharraf Government has sub-let the process of governance to paid experts, some of whom may not even be qualified for the big bucks they are receiving.

The following is the horrifying picture of these friends and favourites hired by the government: Ministry of Housing and Works: Legal consultant Sheikh Saeed Ahmed offered Rs 50,000 per month.

Finance Division: M/S Princewaterhouse Coopers offered US $3.9 million; Khalid Siraj offered US $4,000 per month; MA Jabbar, Rs 60,000 p/m; Ms Zia Batool, 60,000 p/m; Asad Aleem, 60,000 p/m; Rashid Nadeem, Rs 60,000 p/m; Dr Ehsanul Haq, Rs 4,875,000; Dr Zafar Iqbal Cheema, Rs 4,415,000; Dr Anjum Nasim, Rs 4,507,000; Dr Ali Cheema, Rs 4,766,000; Masood Aziz, Rs 4,000,000; Sidat Hyder Murshed, Rs 2,500,000; Syed Haroon Rashid, 57150 p/m; Imran Inayat Butt, Rs 45,000 p/m; Ashraf Awan, Rs 33,000 p/m; Nasim Malik, Rs 75,000 p/m; Saquib Mohyuddin, Rs 125,000 p/m; Bakhtiar A Sayyed, Rs 65,000 p/m; Ms Alyia Agha, Rs 100,000 p/m; SM Masood and Co, Rs 75,000 p/m; Khurshid A Khair, Rs 150,000; Sultan Ahmad Khan, Rs 125,000; M/S Communications Research Strategies, Rs 150,000 p/m; Dr Tariq Hassan offered maximum MP-I package; and Syed Shahid Hussain, Javed Ahmad Noel, Fateh M Chaudhry, Saeed Hamad Qureshi and Dr Pervaiz Hasan all apparently working on honorary basis.

(Those working on honorary basis have been a burden on government finances for many reasons like Syed Shahid Hussain who have been offered more than six club class US return tickets)

Ministry of Industries: John Hagestdat US$ 20,183 per month; Dr Peter Brimble, $19,910 p/m; Douglas Lucius, $ 10,465 p/m; Miss Lim Pao Li, $14,950 p/m; Mumtaz Abdullah, $ 1,955 p/m; Ghulam Mustafa, $ 1,955 p/m; Syed Javed Iqbal, $ 2,128 p/m; Hafeezur Rehman, $ 2,300 p/m; Akbar Khan, $2,300 p/m; Abdul Hafeez Sheikh, $ 2,128 p/m; Basharat Qadir, $2,300; Sultan Muhammad Tanoli (package not indicated) and MA Jabbar, pay equivalent to BS 20.

Cabinet Division: Syed Javed Naseem, Rs 86,000 p/m; Ahmed Attaur Rehman, Rs 103,680; Abdur Rashid Kakar, Rs 4000 per day; Bashir Ahmad Abbasi, Rs 4000 per day; Muhammad Aslam Ch, Rs 4000 per day; Faryad H Malik, Rs 4000 per day; Dr SM Bhutta, Rs 118,627; Hussain Zaigham Alvi, Rs 97,055; Dr Khaqan A Khan, Rs 67,710; M Ali Saif, Rs 75,000; and Insaf Ahmed, Rs 60,000.

Ministry of Commerce: KK Suri, Rs 40,000 per month; Rashid Salahuddin, Rs 50,000 p/m; Mamnoon Hassan, Rs 20,000 p/m; Jamil Erickrada (not indicated); Javed H Agha, Rs 375,000; M/s System Nine Thousand Pvt Ltd, Rs 30,000 p/m; M/s Abbas F Pota and Associates, on case to case basis; Yousaf Adil Salim & Co, Rs 30,000 p/m; Dr Zubair Khan, UK £ 13,455 p/m; David Mueller, £ 12,334 p/m; Akhtar Mahmood, £ 3,160 p/m; Zahir Riaz, £ 3,020 p/m; and Sami Saggu, £ 2,810 p/m.

Ministry of Privatisation: Dr Mateen Tohbani, Rs 210,000 p/m; M Asghar, Rs 135,000 p/m; Aamir Qawi, Rs 100,000 p/m; Karim Nayani, Rs 100,000 p/m; Shahid Akbar, Rs 90,000 p/m; Syed Mansoor Hussain, Rs 80,000 p/m; Abdul Ahad Effendi, Rs 65,000 p/m; Manzoor A Malik, Rs 65,000 p/m; Farhan Malik, Rs 60,000 p/m; M Umar Shereef, Rs 60,000 p/m; Haroon Ahmed Malik, Rs 450,000 p/m; Abdul Hafeez Rana, Rs 42,000 p/m; Javed Hussain, Rs 40,000 p/m; Kalim Ilyas, Rs 35,000 p/m; and M Sadiq, Rs 30,000 p/m.

Revenue Division: Sultanul Haq Safavi, Mushtaq Ahmad and Akhtar Ali have been offered MP-III while the division did not indicate as to what does it offer to its foreign and local consultants including Roy Jackson, Adrian Strain, Alan Morely, Vivienne Davies, Roy Lloyed, Ashir Ahmad, SM Khan, SM Sadiq, Javed H Agha, Imtiaz Ahmad Khan, Shahab Mumtaz; Muhammad Muzammil, Abrar Hussain Naqvi and Mubin Ahsan.

Ministry of Education: Prof. Laeeq Ahmed Khan, Rs 30,000 p/m; Col (retired) M Sadiq, Rs 30,000 p/m; Mehboob Elahi, Rs 30,000 p/m; Dr MSK Shibli, Rs 25,000 p/m; M Ahmad Zaidi, Rs 12,000 p/m; Dr M Mian Siddiqi, Rs 15,000; Dr Mehmoodur Rehman, Rs 12,000 p/m; Dr Khalilur Rehman, Rs 20,000 p/m; Harold Jonathan, Rs 18,000 p/m; Prof Fateh M Malik, Rs 25,000 p/m; Anwarul Haq, Rs 12,000 p/m; Abdul Karim, Rs 6812 p/m; Ms Dareema Rehman, Rs 6000 p/m; Peter Howe, Aus$ 259875; Munir Ahmad, M Hashim Abbasi and Mrs Razia Abbas were offered Rs 112,218 respectively.

Economic Affairs Division: Makhdoom H Chaudhry, Rs 35,000 per month; Kashif Zafar, Rs 276,000; while package of Mrs Kasuar Iqbal and Eaba Abdul Rahim is not indicated.

Kashmir Affairs Division has only one consultant, namely Brig (retired) Bashir Hussain whose package is not indicated. Defence Production Division: Lt Col (retired) Sajid Majeed Bhatti, consultant in BS 19; Sardar M Anwar, BS-19; and M/s JBA Karachi, Rs 500,000 as consultancy fee and Rs 350,000 as boarding/lodging.

Ministry of Water and Power: The ministry has engaged eight consultancy firms for its different projects but did not indicate the amount offered to them. Ministry of Communication: In the National Highway Authority the consultants are Farrukh Karim Qureshi, Rs 65,000 per month; packages of Pakistan Motorway consultant, M/S EGC/ACE and M/S NESPAK not indicated;

M/S Riaz Ahmad & Co, Rs 3,500,660; M/S Ford Rhode Robson Morrow, Rs 2,000,000; M/S Ford Rhode Robson Morrow, on hourly basis at rates prescribed by ICAP; M/S Citibank, on fee of US$ 48,000 and a man hour schedule with the lowest being $ 600 and highest $1000; M/S Citibank, on fee of US$ 22,500 and a man hour schedule with the lowest being $ 600 and highest $ 1000; M/S S Zafar Shah, hourly rate ranging from Rs 100-2000; M/S ABN-Amro, Rs 12,000 per hour with a cap of Rs 1,000,000; NESPAK, Rs 30,645,602; REMCO JV EA, Rs 2,055,275; NESPAK, Rs 4,080,000; Loya Associates, Rs 4,210,000; NESPAK, Rs 30,847,480; ACC, Rs 31,749,917; LRA Group, Rs 63,060,500; Technoconsultants, Rs 6,306,700; EGC, Rs 8,064,563; Iqbal Haq associates, Rs 2,340,000; ACC, Rs 131,880; NESPAK, Rs 1,800,000; REC, Rs 390,000; REC, Rs 400,000; Engineering consultant, Rs 315,000; DD&C, Rs 531,030; ACC, Rs 296,807; SAMPAK, Rs 705,000; Lt Col (retired) M Iqbal, Rs 2,610,000; ACE Transportation, Rs 844,964; NESPAK, Rs 2,692,000; ACC, Rs 224,400; PEAL, Rs 2,761,640; ACE Transportation, Rs 2,535,000; AA Associates, Rs 1,300,000; ESS Associates, Rs 42,250; EGC, Rs 295,000; DD&C, Rs 1,733,750; Loya Associates, Rs 984,000; PRAL, Rs 14,000,000; PIN, Rs 145,000; NUST, Rs 2,000,000; PRC, Rs 75,886; Freeman Fox, Rs 96,689; DCIL, Rs 35,543; Kamsax, Rs 28,741; Mc KEE Associates, Rs 12,612; Engg. Consultants, Rs 39,494; ACC, Rs 34, 450; Kamsax international, Rs 21,851; NESPAK, Rs 17,334; Loya Associates, Rs 17,334; AA Associates, Rs 26,928; Kamsax international, Rs 19,145; Louis Berger, Rs 4,464; Wilbersmith, Rs 4,569; and Riaz & Co, Rs 5,232.

The consultants engaged by Port Qasim Authority of the communication ministry include M/s Posford Decevivier etc, Rs 17.4 million; M/s Engineering consultants etc., Rs 17.6 million; M/s National Engineering Services, Rs 8.437 million, Rs 0.15 million, Rs 1.5 million, Rs 0.456 million and Rs 597 million respectively for different projects; M/s Loya Associates, Rs 0.37 million; M/S AA Associates, Rs 1.976 million; M/S Associated consulting engineers, Rs 1.347 million; M/s Techno consult, Rs 1.552 million; and M/s Marine consultant, Rs 0.019 million.

Ministry of Information and Media Development: Sohail Hashmi, Rs 80,000 p/m; Burhanuddin Hassan, Rs 50,000 p/m; Nisar Ahmad, Rs 460 per day; and M Hanif, Rs 12,000 p/m.

Population Ministry: Aurangzeb Khan offered Rs 45,000 pm.

Statistic Division: Only consultant Ludo Vico Karraro is not indicated.

Establishment Division: Consultant Justice (retired) Shah Abdur Rashid gets Rs 5000 per month.

Petroleum Ministry: SM Zafarullah and Abdur Razzak is also not indicated.

Interior Division: SAM Wahidi, Rs 14,000 per month; M Rafiq Ahmed, Rs 15,000 p/m; and companies hired by NADRA (package not indicated).

Defence Division: Only consultant is Khalid Butt whose package is not indicated.

Science and Technology: Dr Manzoor Hussain Soomro, Rs 7000 per month; Dr Azra Sultana, Rs 25,000 p/m; Sheikh Mehmood Ahmed, Rs 30,000 p/m plus 3,583 as conveyance allowance; and Tariq Mustafa, Rs 100,000 p/m and TA/DA for a BS 22 officer under government rules.



Previous Top Stories Next

The News International, Pakistan

Update | World | National | Karachi | Islamabad | Lahore | Business

Stocks | Sports | Editorial | Opinion | Newspost | Cartoon

Some interesting news:

``Joint electorate system under consideration

ISLAMABAD (APP)–Minister for Local Governments and Rural Development, Omer Asghar Khan has said that government is considering a number of proposals to ensure more participatory role of all sections of society in its nation building endeavour.

“We plan to introduce electoral reforms. Number of national assembly seats may be increased on the basis of the recent census,” the Minister told BBC.

He said, “we are thinking over the introduction of joint electorate system as the minorities have a lot of concerns.” Furthermore he said, the seats for women in district council, national and provincial assemblies will be increased.`` (Nation, Pakistan)

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/today/main/top8.htm

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Narain - ``missing my nation`` is something felt, something non-material, and something difficult to explain in words. Yes, one can pick up the phone and dial Pakistan, or buy a ticket and fly to Pakistan, but there are those who miss the essence of a nation, not captured by words, only captured by scents, images, and memories!!!

-zensufi.com-

jasbati,

In case you come to pakistan, and your money gets stollen by thugs who break in to your room, please note the car number palates, in pakistan it appears that badies dont change the numbers, and send a letter to dawn, no point in going to police, because the badies said that they were police. From dawn of today

Police excesses

ON reaching my flat in Karachi, after a long flight from New York, I was taking a nap, when four men in plain clothes - claiming to be policemen - broke into my bedroom.

They told me they had come to detain me under Section 151 of CrPC. One of them, identified as sub-inspector Mirani of Gulshan-i-Iqbal police station, repeatedly hit me behind my neck. An amount of $2000 also disappeared from my table.

They had come in a white Toyota car No. H0796.

M.M. ALAM

Karachi

rsridhar/ siraj-

..those are horrifying details, especially the letter to Guardian...i went to cryforjustice.com and saw some of the clips- they were bestial, to put it mildly!!

..and wonder the proportion of images that would not have been captured on camera..,

...this Romair guy will not respond..i know his tactics...i wonder if a UNCHR report is satisfactoryt enough for him..

ahmed madani # 45

Sir, if you continue to claim to be a Pakistani

please do not use the word ``babu``,its hardly ever

used by pakis.Secondly,substitute ``J`` for ``Z``,eg.

lafangabaazi NOT lafangabaaji.Thirdly,the Kalima

quoted by you is incorrect,which no muslim would

misquote.Lastly,your claim to know arabic and your

mastery of the English language is nothing short

of exceptional.

BTW, when did you become a ``busynesman``,last time

I read you were a ``hotel receptionist`` taking care

of our arab friends. :))

I hope next time you wouldn`t make the above mistakes and prove to be a proper Pakistani.

Jai Ram Ji Ki.

Regards.

harish3 39

You can have whatever views you ant about Pakistan or create as many fallacies as you want by comparing Nazi Germany to Pakistan. Time will tell if we want territory or the well being of the Kashmiri people.

Yes, sabar ka phaal sometimes becomes rotten, and yes we Pakistanis have done enough of it. Now our rights are becoming fermented, your strategy is working, but I do believe there is a lesson in everything. Soon we`ll learn.

One hopes others will be ready when we apply what we learn.

Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari.

ahmed madani:

You are very Indian. Quit pretending!

Tired of this randam thoughts of foren expaks. Yaar you left Pak ok no problom. We pak. no problom. Why cry now about your Pakistan. You do not good man you left for money , sex with gori(i hope you get it man, hope no fat white bufflow, ugly, you afraid of punjabi nice woman), liberal living etc for america that it . its all all other is dirt garbage. shut up. if you live pakistan as you find there in usa good fine but shud up. You lost your right to critic Pakistan.Let me tell u critic america then boss will kick you say paki get out if you donot like usa. Same i say shud up , no critic 4 pakistan you did not like ok that is your problom. No problom to us pakistanis. I will never go usa or uk , I like country pakistan very much to live to usa and uk. All lafangabaji too much. I think nobdy is great just bcos he can go usa and uk or for that matter any foren country.Real problom any body brings gori Aurat people think he is great, what about half bread Kaloo children, they do not look good. Smart makes money in pak not like expaks i hate their pride yaar.Expak think he knows all/ all solution to pak. problom. He is smart all pakis in Pakistan are Mukmafi Ante (stupid in arab language). I know little Arabian language.I will say to you mukkhraban, mukhmafi ante. All garbage in usa, uk and foren. All people canot make mony find probloms in pak and that is all problom.WE busyness man can make money anywhere no problom for us you babus. We need no job any govt is ok foe us. As busyness man does not need job. All ejucated fools , babus want jobs garbage from colleges. Why ask for jobs do busyness. Babus bring misery and poverty to all lands including our.Shud up man you left shud up live pakistan to pakistanies, no critic welcomed. No future till we stop making stupid babus (monkeys- baboons) in large numbers who beg 4 job s and demad good life. Babus feel we own good life to them. Stupid yaar.

There is no god but allah,Mohammad is last messengers.

Allah hu Akber.If you feel no good live pakistan but critic not welcomed.good day all babus. Let our land be free of Babus (They think they are like Barra english officer)

``Do you know half of my articles, as controversial as this one, have been held by chowk...never to be seen, by the inhabitants of this forum...``

Now I know, why --- may be, much less meaningful? -- may be, too much jazbati? -- but keep on writing -- you`ll get published.

Romair # 30;

Happy to oblige.

www.cryforjustice.com

Mr Jazbati,

You said, ``Which has its genesis in the complex that indians have ( and I hate to be a bigot but I have to point out ). A complex that arises from the ``reality`` of Pakistan, that exists, and inshaALLAH will exist until QIYAMAH. Good or bad, in ramshackle condition or miserable is not the point. IT EXISTS, only to haunt you all of the fact that Muslims, with the miracle of Allah the ALmighty succeeded in getting themselves a homeland. What for, and how is it faring now, is not the point. They got it, and you hate it...so grow up guys...Pakistan is there, to exist, and we are happy as Pakistanis..at least I am ALHAMDULILLAH!!!``

News for you is that Indians really don`t give a rats asz about existance of Pakistan....they aren`t bothered. Future existance of Pakistan will be decided by Pakistanis alone. No nation comprising or diverse ethnic group slipping down the economic ladder can avoid secisnist forces. Existance of Pakistan is not dependent on India. However, that said, Indians like having Pakistan around because they have a nation even more wreched than themselves to compare with.

I LIKE BEING IN THE WEST BECAUSE INDIANS OR PAKISTANIS HAVE NO SENSE OF COMPASSION OR GENROSITY.

Sarwari #33

I often read Pakistani demands that the world “wake up” to the oppression of kashmiris (muslims) by India. I think you would agree that the world has not “woken up” to these demands, but I don’t hear many Pakistanis complain about it, so I assume they understand why. Cries of human rights violations by Pakistanis sound disingenuous b/c the world knows of their territorial ambitions towards Kashmir. It is similar to nazi germany annexing neighboring lands during WWII under the pretext of safeguarding the interests of german-speaking peoples living in those lands.

Quite interesting to know that like many topics relating to Pakistan, this one has digressed into a discussion about all issues like `` two nation theory `` , `` separation of East Pakistan ``,``which one is better for Muslims to live in: India or Pakistan?``, `` the loot and plunder of politicians in my country ( Pakistan )`` et al. Good to know many of you have responded by saying that you miss Pakistan. Some miss it in form of the Azan ( and someones suggestion about putting a CD for that was not only preposterous, but also reflected the lack of understanding many people have about `` our `` religion being our life, a complete code, unlike a spare tire that many non-religious people think we can fit in only if the car of life is in trouble ). I know you guys would now bash religion viz a viz taliban and all, because that is a good basis for all of you fashionable anti-religion hereos. But that is not ISLAM ..read on ,people and then make judgements. Allah help us!

I want to write so much in response to each of your replies, but I will put in a few comments, cos many of us ( including myself ) are incorrigible reprobates unwilling to change for the better.

baharhaal , have the following to say:

a. Please stick to the topic, this was about missing home, and people, not about the two nation theory, or the separation of Bangladesh, or who is better: muslims in India or Pakistan?

b. It is not necessary to talk about Pakistan only when you are IN PAKISTAN. People who think they are more Pakistanis only because they are `In` Pakistan, and those that arent at home are `not` Pakistanis , are acting like ignoble prudes who dont know the `` reasons `` for going abroad ( some really had to struggle for a life in Pakistan, and they made a decision not because of lack of love for their country but cos they just had to).....I am not talking about the exceptions so please keep the `` america is the land of opportunity `` bit out of it please. I can bet all my money , that many America based Pakistanis are more feeling , sentient, and passionate about Pakistan than many of us pruggish & immune beings in Pakistan who like the status quo of corruption

( sad but true !!!..again not counting the exceptions). BTW, I have lived in Pakistan for 25 years, so no one dare say, ``I dont have the license to speak about my own country`` ..PAKISTAN

b. As much as you would hate, the fact that many of chowkwallas in particular, and Indians in general seem to talk so much about its lack of relavance, is perfect QED: If muslims in India are better off there, and we in Pakistan are disgusted and miserable folks, if India is such a kewl place, why beat the point about TNT ( two nation theory )..perfect QED!!!

Which has its genesis in the complex that indians have ( and I hate to be a bigot but I have to point out ). A complex that arises from the ``reality`` of Pakistan, that exists, and inshaALLAH will exist until QIYAMAH. Good or bad, in ramshackle condition or miserable is not the point. IT EXISTS, only to haunt you all of the fact that Muslims, with the miracle of Allah the ALmighty succeeded in getting themselves a homeland. What for, and how is it faring now, is not the point. They got it, and you hate it...so grow up guys...Pakistan is there, to exist, and we are happy as Pakistanis..at least I am ALHAMDULILLAH!!!

c. And please keep personal attacks to a minimum. We are supposedly `` literate `` people, so criticism for the sake of it, is not a sensible strategy.

d. In the end, I would still like to say, that watever the TAXI wala, or someone like that

( kissi Indian bhai sahib nay mention kiya tha ) keeps saying, I WILL not only miss Pakistan, but I , alongwith many OTHER MUSLIMS from the world, would continue to see PAKISTAN very very very separate from INDIA...

on a side note, but a very significant one, KUDOS to Pakistanis who choose to stay in Pakistan, even when they have a choice...Aap sub ko salaam!!!

May ALLAH guide us all...Ameen

:)

ALLAH HO AKBAR

Pakistan Zindabad

Acerbic Jazbati,

p.s; thanks to my few supporters here at Chowk. Do you know half of my articles, as controversial as this one, have been held by chowk...never to be seen, by the inhabitants of this forum...may ALLAH guide them too...:)

Karakorum

Why should anyone want to think that 4 walls and a closed mind is the only space one can aspire to?

I want to remind you that the day will come when similar suggestion will hold for you - and if then you should complain - well, who will listen who will speak up for you?

Pakistan is the world`s truly great nations, this is her destiny but nobody said the journey would be smooth. Have faith, the adversity is just a test, do not allow yourself or others to be cowed by it.

Re: war crimes in East Pakistan

Here is an article in The Texas Observer. URL : http://www.texasobserver.org/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=341.

The relevant passage is as follows:

``BANGLADESH. The scene now shifts to East Pakistan in 1970. When the political party opposed by the military overwhelmingly won a fair election in 1970--the first fair election in 10 years--a military junta led by General Yahya Khan tried to block the change of power. Using weapons that had been supplied by the United States, the junta temporarily achieved this end by mass murder, rape, and downright butchery. ``The eventual civilian death toll has never been placed at less than half a million and has been put as high as three million.``

Sridhar

Re: Reply #: 30

Romair,

If you go to ``http://www.cryforjustice.com/history/`` you can see some heartrending pictures of the carnage. Pakistani Army was helped in this by Al-Badr and Rajakar. The story is in that website.

Sridhar

Re: Reply #: 30

Romair

Here is more on the numbers killed in Bangladesh by the Pakistani army. The URL is : http://www.tribuneindia.com/20001216/windows/main1.htm. Here are some relevant passages:

1. ``In the crackdown of March 25, 1971, some 50,000 persons were ruthlessly butchered. The principal targets were the students and faculty of Dacca University. The use of air strikes, artillery and tanks was made unhesitatingly by the Pakistani armed forces on civilian targets around Dhaka. In the subsequent fighting that ensued, more than a million civilians and East Pakistani army men (Bengalis) were killed till Bangladesh got liberated on December 16, 1971.``

2.In its 1981 report, the UN Human Rights Commission affirmed that the genocide in Bangladesh was one of the worst in history. Declares Bangladesh’s human rights activist Jahanara Imam, ``Even if a lower range of 1.5 million deaths was taken, killings took place at a rate of 6,000 to 12,000 per day, through the 267 days of carnage.``

3.``A letter in The Guardian described the scene. ``We saw the amputation of a mother’s arm and a child’s foot ... gangrene developed from their bullet wounds. Many saw their daughters raped, and the heads of their children smashed in. Some watched their husbands, sons and grandsons tied up at the wrists and shot in more selective male elimination ... No sedative will calm a girl now in Bougavu hospital — she is in a permanent delirium, crying ‘they will kill us all’. Next to her is a girl still trembling from day-long raping and a vaginal bayonet wound.``

The rest is too horrifying to recount here. You can go to the URL for other details.

Sridhar

A humanist patriotic Pakistani is saying this.

Youths used as sniffer dogs

It was shocking to see on the front page of Dawn (June 28) a big colour photograph showing the Indian army using a young Kashmiri Muslim lad as a sniffer dog for the detection of land mines on a road in occupied Kashmir. For this job, special dogs are trained and used, who detect mines by sniffing and mines are then blown up by the soldiers. This photograph is indeed proof of a grave war crime, cruelty of the worst kind, and a most serious violation of human rights.

No country in the world, no army in the world, would use a civilian like this. This is the naked proof. Kashmir clearly does not belong to India, the Indian army is an army of occupation. Where has the world conscience gone?

I would request President Musharraf to take this photograph with him to the UN session and distribute it among the delegates there and ask them who are terrorists in Kashmir - the Kashmiri freedom fighters or the Indian army? Certainly the Indian army.

This picture needs to be flashed to all big and small nations of the world on the Internet. It should be shown to Mr George W. Bush, Mr Kofi Annan, Mr Putin, the President of China and other heads of state who are members of the UN.

J.Y. NOWSHERWAL

Chishtian

Re:Reply # 30

Romair,

Following is the relevant passage about carnage by Pakistani forces in East Pakistan in 1971.The report is titled: ``REPORT ON THE FINDINGS OF THE PEOPLE`S INQUIRY COMMISSION ON THE ACTIVITIES OF THE WAR CRIMINALS AND THE COLLABORATORS

Summary of investigation into activities of eight war criminals and collaborators of Pakistan military junta during the Bangladesh liberation war of 1971.

National Coordinating Committee for the Realisation of Bangladesh Liberation War Ideals and Trials of Bangladesh War Criminals of 1971``.

URL: ``http://www.shobak.org/bangla_nuremberg/books/report/report1-7.htm``. Here is the relevant passage:

``Indeed, the intensity of the genocide by Pakistanis and their collaborators in Bangladesh surpassed even that of Adolf Hitler in central and eastern Europe. The UN Human Rights Commission (UNHRC), in its 1981 report on the occassion of the 33rd anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, stated that the genocide committed in Bangladesh in 1971 was the worst in history. It is widely accepted, both in and outside Bangladesh, that a total of three million Bengalees were killed by Pakistani troops and their local allies. The UNHRC report said, even if a lower range of 1.5 million deaths was taken, killings took place at a rate of between 6 to 12 thousand per day, through the 267 days of carnage. This made it the most intense genocide in history``.

Note that the number of people killed is speculated to be between 1.5 to 3 million. In either case, it is a large figure. You say, this could not have happened due to lack of firepower at that time. It seems Pakistani army has done the impossible then or else your argument is lopsided. This has happened. You are arguing this could not have happened, so it did not happen. Talk about stretching one`s logic.

Sridhar

Urstruly #28:

I have an idea, why don`t you keep a CD of the Azaan and whenever its maghrib you can put on your headphones and blast it to your heart`s content.

Peace.

Siraj ``Number of Muslims killed by Pakistan:

Bangladesh war of independence : three Million.

Shias and Ahmediyas : thousands every year.``

Your figures are amazingly off target. Do you have anything from credible human rights organizations like AI etc. to back these up? I would be interested in seeing those. A lot of Bangladeshis were killed in 71 (as were many West Pakistanis living in East Pakistan). This is quite sad. But the figure of 3 million is a lie.

There isn`t enough firepower available in the whole of Pakistan, even now, to kill that many people in such a short amount of time. The only way to do that would be through constant bombing from the air (like the US did in the Gulf War) or through a nuclear strike. To the best of my knowledge none of this was done in 71.

Currently the only Shias being killed in Pakistan are by the opposing militant sectarian parties (and vice-versa), and not by the govt. That is why these militant parties are now being banned completely (sidenote: this goes against democracy by the way; why aren`t the US govt. and Pakistani intellectual supporters of, ``democracy at all costs for everyone`` complaining?) Even this figure is in the hundreds/year, at most. And I have not heard of too many, if any, Ahmedi or Christian being killed, even by opposing sectarian parties.

The Pakistan govt. itself has not carried out any kind of military action against populations of any specific sect in Pakistan for as long as I can remember (i.e. tearing down their places of worships, etc.). If it were to do so, it would have to utilize the Army. And the Army would refuse, because it consists of people from all sects, including Ahmedis, Christians, etc. Targeting all Pakistani Shias, for example, would lead to a mutiny in the Army (and in Pakistan, in general). In fact, the Pakistani Army completely gave up its lucrative posts (for thousands of Pakistani soldiers) in Saudia Arabia, when the Saudis requested only Sunni soldiers to be sent.

It is a good idea to counter attacks from Pakistanis against India, but I would encourage you to base your counter-attacks on facts.

Dear Jazbati,

It was a nicely written article. Sentiments are genuine and I can totally relate to them. Not a day goes by when I dont miss the dusty roads of my home town. I would have never left Pakistan if it wasnt because of the suffocating corruption of the fascist poiticians, leaders, and vulture like bureaucracy. Pakistan selflessly gave me everything that I have today like a mother. I will never forgive these meanspirited, myopic, and heartless people because of whom I cannot listen to the Azan at the time of Maghrib; and that is the time when it hurts the most. I just pray that these m-fs, their families, friends, and accomplices may rot in the deepest abyss of hell forever. Amen!

I am orphaned by them despite I have a mother.

sarwari:

Number of Muslims killed by Pakistan:

Bangladesh war of independence : three Million.

Shias and Ahmediyas : thousands every year.

Have some shame sarwari. However, it is ``Halal`` to kill Muslims in the Sunni Islamic Caliphate of West Punjab these days.

romair 8,

I hail from a region of india where islam is as old as any where else in the world, a region that had arabs long before arabs heard about islam. It is a place where madrassa operate only during the night because no one wants to miss out on `education`, the most prestigeous `islamic high school` near my place has 80% hindus because they dont want to compromise quality of intake through written test by unreasonable religious preference, a place there are hundreds of mosques are built by conning some bigoted arab sheikh while the locals do not spent a paisa, a place where many muslims practice matrilineal system.

My reaction to TNT and its proponents is un-adultrated contempt which also goes for its stalwarts and its creations.

Sarwari

You must be an Indian. I am from Pakistan. With all that loot, you obviously can not understand.

Here is a column from Dawn by Ayaz Amir that may not cheer up the acerbic jazbatis of Pakistan -- if so -- please don`t blame Ayaz Amir -- he is just a messenger.

Roadmap to nowhere

By Ayaz Amir

WHY does nothing sound strange or novel in Pakistan anymore?

Is it that we have exhausted all tricks and have to make do with the endless repetition of old ones? Or is it that the cynicism born of our cumulative experiences has killed all enthusiasm?

No road in Pakistan is more extensively travelled on than the one leading back to democracy.

At