A Pakistani School’s Visit to India

Dear Sadna,

re: immigrant special interest groups in home countries

I have been mulling this one over. The examples of working to middle class immigrant Latino groups who distrust conventional political processes and who instead channel their organizing activies into social, cultural and relief efforts was a newer immigrant response, to my frames of reference. Their loyalties to their homelands are strong, according to the research on contemporary Latino immigrant communites, and alot of their money goes to support relatives who remain in those home countries. It should be pointed out that the earnings sent to the home country play some part in local and national economies. I guess my point is that money is channelled even innoculously to various efforts on micro and macro levels.

In terms of South Asian/West communities; a few thoughts come to mind. There are the alternative pop cultural North American concerts in which proceeds are raised for various Tibetan relief efforts. I know that there are individuals who establish and fund humanitarian organizations. I just saw a documentary on cab drivers in New York City. One of the most endearing people featured was an older gentleman whose last name was Sharma, and who started and sustained a school for girls in India, with his earnings as a cab driver. These examples (and I have enough faith in the human spirit to believe there are more) illustrate how these negotiations between individuals in home and host countries may be constructive and protective of citizens who may be endangered or need assistance. It seems to me that these efforts might be ones that are positive in terms of immigrant economic interactions between host and home countries. In some cases these efforts seem to pick up where the home country`s infrastructure might be lagging in meeting the needs of specific citizens.

In the city in which I live, the contemporary discourse is on the simultaneous multiplicities of identities, and South Asians seem to be in the thick of it! So you have various organizations that interface and coalition on a variety of issues. In fact, the term South Asian itself is one that evolved in the growing communities of Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Nepalis, Sri Lankans who embraced the commonalites of their cultures, experiences and vision in a new host country. I think its a cultural term, but also a political term that challenges the divisiveness that has characterized many of our respective countries interactions with each other. In many ways, the commonalties far outweigh the so called differences. Its a gift that I am grateful for.

I think that South Asian immigrant communities negotiate complex landscapes; on one hand they are used as the ``model minority`` against other groups of color (a trap indeed, Stuka)and on the other hand many communities are anxious about their participation in the political process of host countries. And theres lots more! I know this runs the risk of oversimplification, but I`m trying to give some picture of some of the experiences here. (and I am not the authority, by any means)

No, I`m not nearer to the original topic! (sorry)

How about you?

I cant imagine what your Afghani roomate is going through, let alone the female population in Afghanistan. I think you`re right in assessing the situation. Its such a transparent power play. I would really like to read any available contemporary narratives written by Afghani women, if you know of any. I had heard a news story about young Irani women and progressives who were training to be part of a resistance movement against the theocracy in Iran. Can you corroborate or suggest where I could research this?

regards!

Reply Stuka #929

Stuka

“… I still don`t see the connection between Taliban and Pedophelia.”

It was an attempted joke (in bad taste) on my part. Please disregard. Serve me right for attempting reactionary humour.

“I know the conversation on Chowk meanders, but this like the Ganges flowing in South Western Autralia.”

This opens up interesting theological vistas. From Gaumukh to Gilgandra…perhaps your next response to Farangi_Kush could be on this? See it as a civilising mission on your part (plus Advaniji will be very pleased, I say this as a BJPwallah...)

:-)

Zafar

PS More seriously, I think India’s refusal to humiliate itself in front of other countries is a function of our extreme cultural arrogance – and that this arrogance is a good and a bad thing. Good because we have no interest in being anybody else and so do not become their stalking horses. But bad because we tend to condescend to cultures we feel are less well developed, and also to their people.

hobbyty says

``It was joy to read your post. I am also fascinated and seek an understanding of “basis of that trust” – and am very proud for you that it has “occupied” you for some time. Answers come within a meliu of inquiry, which is itself a rational exercise, even as the answer may be intuitive on one level and reasoned on another. ``

....clever !........ what he is saying is that it is good to think as long as you come up with the same answer because intuitively you know that there can be no other answer ....... right ?

........ oh, how typically condescending, self congratulatory and full of pompous rectitude .... i can imagine the pat robertson smirk that goes with these kind of statements ... the same smirk could be seen on the faces of ayatollah khalkali, billy graham, the wizard of mansoora, bishop tutu and the grand inquisitor ...... a holier than thou, we-understand, trust-me, inshallah type of condition brought on by belief based on faith, or faith based on belief, neither of which has any foundation in reason or humanity ........ any philosophy that rests on intuition instead of inquiry, and thinks that certitude is unnesessary, is nothing but a silly dogma that prey`s on our superstition and fear .......

...... i guess if i had the time i could take apart hobbyty`s sophistry sentence by sentence, but then, i know from experience that it would be an exercise in futility because faith has nothing to do with reason - and that is okay, as long as it doesn`t interfere with the lives of those who believe in the tooth-fairy and little green men .........

......most intellectuals, and particulary philosophers, say idiotically simple things in a way which makes them appear to be rather clever ..... the man in the street thinks that there must be something to the silliness because it sounds intelligent and is taken for a ride ........ russell was one smart guy who simply called a spade a spade .......

``Religion is based, I think, primarily and mainly upon fear. It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly, as I have said, the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes. Fear is the basis of the whole thing -- fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand.`` .......

.........and it is the cruelty that worries some of us, otherwise we really don`t care if people want to prostrate themselves before a six-armed goddess or some guy on a cross ..........

Reply Farangi #930

“Now could you please tell me how bringing in Afghanistan & any other muslim country will address the problems faced by India & Pakistan. In fact,to a large extent,if a Pakistani brings in the Afghan issue(for or against)it IS relevant.”

Farangi Sahib

1 What happens in Pakistan affects India. If Pakistan goes the Taliban way, India will have to deal with the resultant mess. There is no point pretending that a civil war/unrest or profound economic dislocation in Pakistan will not have any impact across our border. Already, according to Veeresh, there are refugees from Pakistan seeking asylum in India.

2 Pakistan participated in creating a tiger when they supported the Taleban in Afghanistan. Currently they are trying to ride the tiger – rather desperately hoping that it’s new focus will be Kashmir (which affects India – hence India’s stake in how Islam is (mis)understood on the subcontinent) rather than Pakistan itself. It is becoming increasingly clear that this is a vain hope. Leading back to point number one.

“Make no mistake.Every land-loving Indian inadvertantly re-inforces the TNT whenever its criticism of Pakistan`s utter mismanagement zeroed in on Islam & affairs in other muslim countries.”

So if I (a) love India and (b) disagree with the Taleban’s interpretation of Islam this re-inforces the TNT? Arre vaah – what logic! Please explain.

Best wishes,

Zafar

PS If you are actually interested in the tragedy which is starvation, have a look at a story on Orissa on tehelka.com. It’s a terrible thing, and not to India’s credit at all. I wonder if you will be jahil enough to try and use it to score a couple of cheap points when you reach your intellectual limits (that is to say, soon) in your next exchange with an Indian? As for comparing starvation deaths in India with those in Afghanistan – I truly hope that you are right and that Afghanistanis (or any other people) do not suffer this tragedy – but I suspect that they do. I wish that there was a free press there to reassure us with believable information. Btw, your sources were?

Reply Shah #942

Shahji

“Since Madame Gandhi tried to use her femenine charm on aging brezhnev,kosygin buddha.”

She DID? No wonder Russia’s India policy remained so boringly pragmatic. If only we had elected that generation’s equivalent of Aishwarya…(as for the rest, please refer to Dr Ambedkar’s memoirs, which may cast additional light on this original assertion.)

“She herself admitted blatantly using freuds `oedipus complex` which is no no in our culture.”

I would love to read more of Indira Gandhi’s greasy confessions for myself. Please be generous and tell me where to find them. (Or did you mean Sonia? Or Maneka? No, impossible, Maneka Gandhi using feminine charm is as likely as a tank delivering flowers…) Or perhaps you are confusing Madame Gandhi with Kamala Das? (Who, btw, recently converted to Islam, just in case anybody is interested…)

Eagerly waiting for your response.

Zafar

PS In your response #943 you left out any reference to the Zionist Occupation Government. I feel that is extremely relevant. Please address next time.

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Its true ,madrssah not only in Pakistan but also in India is not fully understood by non muslims.Madrassah =primary school =elementary schools mostly where islamiyat is taught with preparing for high school & other higher classes.

Recently in Rajashthan ,kids from Madrassah scored higher than those in govt,Schools.It also has as many women as do voluntarily like to attend.







Indian Muslim leader asks BJP govt to halt campaign against Madrassas

Updated on 2001-08-29 13:05:54



NEW DELHI, Aug 29 (PNS): An Indian Muslim leader has urged the Bhartia Janta Party (BJP) government to halt its ``hate campaign`` against Madrassas, saying it should first prove its claim that some of the Islamic seminaries are hubs of terrorism.

Mohammed M Mazhari, who heads the Islamic Council of India (ICI), said he refused to believe a newspaper report that quoted the Intelligence Bureau as saying that scores of Madrassas in areas bordering Pakistan and Nepal were promoting ``fundamentalism``.

``We challenge anyone to prove that madrassas in India are hubs of terrorism. If the government provides the necessary proof, we will ourselves lock up and set fire to them,`` Mazhari told IANS.

The report allegedly prepared by the Intelligence Bureau claims a number of mosques and madrassas along a 10-km stretch in border districts of Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, Rajasthan and Gujarat were ``brainwashing`` young Muslims.

Mazhari said: ``All such reports are just creating tensions. It is not fair to dub all madrassas as terrorist hideouts. The government owes the people a clarification.``

Mazhari along with 15 Muslim leaders had met Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee this month to express his concern over what he felt was a government-sponsored tirade against Indian madrassas.

He said Vajpayee told them that he only knew that a few madrassas near the Nepal border were suspected to be bases for fundamentalist groups.

Mazhari, who also heads the National Minority Development and Finance Corporation, said Muslims leaders would soon meet Home Minister Lal Krishna Advani.

Muslims form the largest minority of 15 percent in Hindu-majority India. Mazhari said there were about 100,000 madrassas in the country.

The government, he said, ``keeps on raking up the subject of madrassas though it has no concrete evidence to prove the allegations. Has any Muslim been arrested for anti-national activities or spying in the country?`` End

Active faith or passive belief? Are they different?

PM,

Making sure we understand things, do the following have active faith or passive beliefs? If it is passive belief, how can we convince them that it is not active faith? Is there a way to tell that the following is not active faith?

http://news.sify.com/cgi-bin/sifynews/news/content/news_fullstory.jsp?article_oid=6020486&page_no=1

Women`s organisation supports acid attack

By Suhail Wani in Srinagar



A women`s organisation in Kashmir, Dhukhtarn-e-Milat, on Tuesday said it supported the militants (Lashkar-e-Jabar) who sprayed acid on women for violating the Islamic dress code.

``We are highly indebted to our conscious Muslim brothers who are campaigning for the veil and are reminding the people of Kashmir that we are Muslims,`` the Dhukhtarn-e-Milat group said in a statement.

Dhukhtaran-e-Milat (Daughters of the Nation), a separatist group, is fighting for Kashmir`s merger with neighbouring Pakistan and imposition of Islamic Law in Kashmir.

``I am happy that 80 per cent of women in Kashmir have adopted the Islamic dress code,`` the statement quoted its chief, Asia Andrabi, as saying.

Earlier this month, Lashkar-e-Jabar, claimed responsibility for the attack which spread panic among women across Kashmir.

Frontline Kashmiri militant groups have condemned the acid attack on women and blamed the incident on Indian security forces for it.

Authorities deployed police around schools and colleges for girls in Srinagar after the attack. More women in the Kashmir valley have started to observe Purdha since Lashkar-e-Jabar announced a deadline for the dress code.

Militants have already banned beauty parlours, cinema halls and liquor shops and issued an Islamic dress code for women immediately after an insurgency in 1990.

Everybody say hello to one more Pakistani Islamic Democrat

http://jang.com.pk/thenews/aug2001-daily/30-08-2001/oped/newspost.htm

Le miserables

AQ Anjum

India`s boastful claims of its usually beefed up ``greats`` in various fields include one-billion population. No body monitors no one disowns. While the population is giant mark, yet the low-caste Hindus, the Dalits who count 16 percent of the population, a whopping level, on the victory stand numbering 160 million in their own country. The Dalits should be the largest single community in India but they are untouchables. They cannot stand in touching distance with Mr Vajpayee or Jaswant Singh, though in a democratic country they should have been the rulers.

Rawalpindi

aqanjum@hotmail.com

Bechara. So worried about India.

Didnt ylh mention this in his article `Tilak and Gokhale` ? Jinnah`s contribution to the freedom movement is undeniable.

From the Dawn today:

When Jinnah led a protest rally

On December 11, 1918, in a celebrated incident in the annals of the liberation movement, the Quaid-i-Azam, along with his wife, played a leading activist role in organizing the citizens of Bombay in a mass public demonstration to break up Bombay Governor Lord Willingdon`s farewell reception, organized by the Mayor of Bombay in the Town Hall, to vote a citizen`s farewell address to the retiring governor, and to erect a public memorial in his honour. The demonstration led by the Quaid resulted in the ignominious break-up of the function. The crowd was lathi-charged by the police, and among those injured was the Quaid.

This demonstration was a sequel to the Quaid`s admonition to Lord Willingdon at the War Conference on June 10, 1918, that if the British wanted help for the empire, action and immediate deeds were required to make the people trusted and real partners. The Quaid then walked out of the conference when Tilak was refused permission to speak. Mr Gandhi refused to fully join the anti-Willingdon movement which culminated in the December 11 anti-Willingdon demonstration.

The demonstration, under the leadership of the Quaid, was one of the first popular rallies against the British. The upshot was that instead of erecting a public memorial for Lord Willingdon, the citizens of Bombay initiated a fund, which resulted in the construction of a ``Jinnah People`s Memorial Hall`` to commemorate his role in the demonstration. A singular tribute to the Quaid which demonstrates that the steel, which the Quaid had within him and which as we all know and acknowledge, as does Mr Cowasjee`s article, led to the creation of Pakistan, manifested itself in many dimensions, according to the need of the hour, including organizing and participating in that celebrated street demonstration.

This incident is covered in a number of books on the Quaid, and most recently I was reminded of it

when re-reading a paper presented by my late father, Ambassador Sajjad Hyder, to an international seminar on the Quaid, on the Quaid`s key role in establishing the Indian Military Academy in Dehra Dun.Its foundation led to the presence of a significant amount of well-educated and politically conscious subcontinental military officers by the end of 1945, among a large number of subcontinentals under arms, and was an important factor in the liberation process which led the British to bow to the inevitable. The Quaid`s contribution in the establishment of the IMA reflects another dimension of his far-seeing vision,efforts and concrete actions which helped create Pakistan, and which include the Bombay demonstration.

Even if these historical facts have not yet been given the recognition they deserve by our institutional memory, surely they should not be forgotten by our public.

TARIQ OSMAN HYDER

Ambassador, Embassy of Pakistan Seoul



Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari

Prophet SA, Ayesha RA and her age:

I have had the opportunity of studying the Prophet`s life in detail, and while there are many things that a person can point out which would be in Modern times be considered to be wrong, I find it hard to believe Ayesha was only 6 years old when she got married to the Prophet....

There are multiple reasons for this:

1) Ayesha`s maturity, her answers to the Prophet, her role as the advisor to Muslim rulers after the Prophet`s death all point to a woman much older in age and acumen than a mere teenager.

2) Lack of truly credible evidence, since Arabs hardly kept track of their age especially those of women.

3) The chroniclers describe a young woman who had reached puberty. Now it is hard for me to imagine that there can be a girl who reached puberty at age 6 or 9.

So its time we put this myth to rest.

-YLH

Farangi Kush

``People from both our countries go to work in the middle east and the haughty Saudis do not differentiate between the two `miskeens`(beggars,that is what they call us)from the `alam-e-fuquraa`(the third world).``

Quite true. That`s why I would never work in Saudi personally. BUT, nothing wrong in working their and taking their money if they are giving it.

Make no mistake.Every land-loving Indian inadvertantly re-inforces the TNT whenever its criticism of Pakistan`s utter mismanagement zeroed in on Islam & affairs in other muslim countries.

Boss, just because you look at the religion of a person does not mean I have to as well. You may go about building kinship with Black Muslims from Detroit. I don`t go around building kinship with Hindus from Fiji. Who should I hold more important, my muslim neighbor or some Hindu Gora Hare Krishna. We did not create TNT. You did. If you think TNT is a stupid idea, and therefore need to blame it on us, that`s your choice.

Let me reiterate & join you in chorus in saying that Pakistan has several times tettered on the brink of economic & ethical disaster.It has been a beggar government but never a beggar nation.

A nation is defined by its people but your army has never trusted the people to define the nation. So how do you say that you are not a beggar nation. Or are you saying that your Army is a Beggar Army. Does the young Captain with a machine gun transform into a General with a begging bowl?

If it was not for the(unparralleled elsewhere)network of charitable grass-roots & silent work,the average Pakistani would be equally emaciated & skeletal.Even no Afghan is like that!

I am not ignorant. In Punjab, you have the most fertile land of the sub-continent. AS FAR AS BOUNTY OF NATURE IS CONSIDERED, PAKISTAN IS BEST OFF, WAY AHEAD OF INDIA AND BANGLADESH. Don`t mistake the land for the people.

How does talking about chinese culinary delights feed almost half a billion struck by hunger(not on voluntary hunger-strike)is something that must be brought to the attention of Mahajan Premji & Dollar-Dalits.

``Kaun banay gaa crore-patti`` does sound a tad misplaced in a nation which really has an unparralleled number of ``Koorrhh pattees``.

Point taken. What is the solution? Make the crore patis starve to provide moral satisfaction to the hungry? What did socialism give to India. Crushed the natural spirit and dynamic nature of Indians. Don`t talk to me about Hindu-Muslim..Talk socio-economic systems.

Give people opportunity. They will do well for themselves. The government being Mai-Baap is bakwas...The Mullahs and the Pandits are all Haramis. It IS THE INDIVIDUAL WHO MATTERS..

AND THE NATION THEN BENEFITS

Gowardhan,

I might be a drudge devoid of any original imagination though there are many that may disagree with that assessment, but unlike you I do not make sweeping statements without backing them up with proper sources and quotations.

You are damn right I am a fanatic. I am a fanatic about undoing the negative propaganda and lies that Brahminist (note not Brahmin but Brahminist) Bigots from India like yourself are spreading in the world about Pakistan. You are damn right I am a fanatic about truth, as much as a you are fanatical in your lies.

anarayan,

I believe on the Kirtida Oza board I thoroughly disproved you by using your own `bharat rakshak` statistician Mr Jaganmohan`s figures and quotes...

May you would like to have a look at that site again :

http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/aces.htm

There can be no controversey about which Air force has dominated the skies of South Asia... it is PAF PAF PAF.....

Zafar,

In my opinion Nationalisms are always counters to popular discontent. Indian Nationalism could have worked if a proper communal settlement could have been worked out. As for communalism even the Nehru report had concluded that Communalism within the context of a diverse state like India had as much a right to exist as individual national states had the right to exist in the Modern World.

The Two Nation theory is a Valid political science theory, no political scientist will deny this fact, but did it need to be invoked? I say had there been a communal settlement, two nation theory would not have required to transform into an explosive Muslim Nationalism which it did. Again it was the popular discontent added to aspirations of the renaissance of Islam which added to it ...

Furthermore, one has to bear in mind the enormous impact of the Khilafat Movement and the abolition of Khilafat on the Muslim Mind. In this lies the answer to the question as to why Modernist and reformist Muslims especially those that were part of what Fazlurrahman calls `AliGarh Westernism` supported the Pakistan Movement where as traditionalists as well as the fundamentalists supported a United India.

The dissolution of Caliphate undoubtedly was one of the turning points of Muslim History and conciousness of the last century. It divided the community into the religious revivalists working for and aiming for the restoration of Caliphate and/or converting the entire world particularly India to Islam, and the Modernists who wanted to create a state where they could bring about the renaissance of Islam from a medieval outdated system to a radically Modern Political discourse.

As per our earlier discussion about Ataturk, one has to keep in mind the efforts he made to modernize rationalize and nationalise Islam for Turkish people.... I have tackled some of these questions in my recent article published in Pak News Silicon Valley :

More Arab than the Arabs by YLH

http://www.paknews.com/articles.php?id=1&date1=2001-08-25

Allama Iqbal put down the following objectives for a Muslim state in North West India as per his address in 1930 (Another interesting book to read his Iqbal Jinnah and Pakistan: Vision and Reality

Edited by CM Naim, which is an interesting collection of papers by famous authors Pakistani and Western).

1)Consolidation of Muslim Culture, and its dissociation from Arab Imperialism.

2)Renaissance of Islam and Islamic Laws

3)Creation of a Modern Muslim State in tune with times.

This was however different from Jinnah`s vision who wanted a West Minister type Secular Democracy.

Ofcourse Iqbal`s reaction to Turkish revolution makes plain a lot of things ...he completely supported Ataturk`s dress reforms, Language reforms, and Modernization especially republicanism. What he objected to was the adoption of Swiss code, because he felt that if Islamic Law was to be put through the rigors of ijtihad and ijmah, it would turn out to be more egalitarian and democratic in spirit than any other code of law ... now one can argue the truth behind this statement, but this is how Iqbal held it. In any event Iqbal`s statement in the 1930 address in which he says `Hindus should not fear that there will religious rule in these Muslim Majority areas` makes it plain that to Iqbal`s mind and perhaps to Jinnah`s mind in the last decade of his life, there was no incompatibility between Islam and Modern Egalitarian democratic ideals. Iqbal atleast viewed Political Islam as separate from personal faith and like a state which was secular, hence he did not believe Islam was a religion, but instead a state in itself. Jinnah we know from 11th August speech was atleast on the surface did not agree with Iqbal...for to Jinnah religion was a personal matter, though Iqbal`s view does make eminent sense. Did Jinnah view Islam as a religion or as a state system, is the question. My guess is that Jinnah was more concerned with the creation solidification and establishment of the state, and with the protection of what was left of our minorities whether in the name of Islam, democracy or secularism.

Shaji

there is a difference between India and Indian. I am not talking about what Indians did against their own country, but the Indian state taking actions which ARE AGAINST PERCIEVED SELF INTEREST.

Challo chaddo, twaadi samajh dey bahar hai...Tussi jaa key jamun becho

PM #917

NAMBLA? No thanks.

saminashah #921
``females were eventually banned from ``masculine`` studies such as science, medicine, etc., and restricted to ``womanly`` curricula ``

I had a Afghan woman batchmate pursuing a masters degree in EE in India, who held a job in the Kabul electricity dept pre-Taliban. She was neither extremely traditional nor `Westernized`. As traditional observance in dress, she wore a head scarf at the most, but only when she wanted to, which happened to be most of the time.

She was not unique as a woman professional, she used to comment(among other things) that `Indians work too hard for everything, getting an education and finding jobs is not so difficult in Afghanistan`.

Guess some guys just donot like competition and want to go high on religion and ideology and want some poor woman to foot the bill, that too, on assertions that its based on scripture they learned in a language they donot understand.

And thats the irony, the grades she worked hard for, all what she learnt to earn a masters degree in engineering, now count for absolutely nothing in her country, in fact there is even a negative connotation associated her efforts. She had better have picked up a gun instead.

I wonder what if anything, can change the situation.

PS: I`m still thinking over the `progressive causes` issue.