A Pakistani School’s Visit to India
Alia Amirali August 16, 2001
#1035 Posted by Urstruly on August 31, 2001 2:02:53 pm
BLASPHEMY LAW & UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS
Sattar # various:
Throughout this debate I have stressed on structuring the discussion on two bases:
1. Examine the Blasphemy Law and see whether it is valid or not.
2. Examine the punishment under this law and see whether it is valid or not.
The reason why I wanted to structure this argument, was discussed in several of my posts. However, the debate went on despite this disagreement. So far we have examined the law through various perspective and analyzed that :
1. Why and how law was enacted.
2.Whether the law is discriminatory according to any standard.
3. Does the law violate any standards set by non-Islamic jurisprudence?
4. Does the law violate any standards set by Islamic jurisprudence and therefore it is non-Islamic?
5. Examined the question whether law is invalid because if we somehow prove that punishment is invalid. (This point can be inferred while we were examining point 4, whereas I still insist that this line of reasoning is illogical)
6. Does the law violate any basic Human Rights (still open for discussion).
All of these issues were raised by Mr. Sattar and they were appropriately answered by me in several of my lengthy posts. Instead of raising counter-arguments Mr. Sattar has chosen to discuss the personality of Yours Truly. Which is also fine by me. I am used to this kind of logic too, which I have termed as ``the Hindu Logic``. The Hindu use this logic all the time when they run out of arguments they pass a callous remark on Holy Prophet (pbuh); when issue of hunger disease and AIDS in India is discussed their answer is ``Blasphemy Law is dicriminatory``; they write posts after posts telling me that I am a psychopath whereas the issue is the excesses of Indian Army in Kashmir. But I must credit you for one thing that you have not lowered yourself as low as dragging my mother into the argument (but Hindus did). But Mr. Sattar I must tell you that you are losing it. At least when we were discussing PPC Section 298, the Quadiani specific law, on Omar Mirza`s board you managed to preserve your dignity.
http://www.chowk.com/bin/showa.cgi?omirza_sep1200
But if you are frequent at Chowk you must know that I have rhinoceros skin as Shandhana Minhas once put it. I am impervious to personal insults. But Mr. Sattar you shocked me. I always thought that the ``Hindu Logic`` is particular to Hindus only but when I saw you doing it, it shattered the whole belief system. It is quite a shock for a bigot like me to realize that the ``Hindu Logic`` is actually ``Loser Logic``. Well, this is a cruel and uncertain world we live in.
You keep on harping about ``Muslim Psyche`` argument yet you reply the argument with an analysis of my personality, as to how cunning, how dishonest, and how slippery I am yet tactfully avoid the questions which I have asked upteenth time:
1. Either the Muslim Psyche (as under scrutiny) does not exist.
Or
2. it exists but it has not played any role or very little role in the formulation of the Blasphemy Law.
Am I right to assume that you have nothing more to say on this subject?
You have mentioned 10`s of time that the Blasphemy Laws violate ``some`` basic human rights; yet you have failed to present any argument to support your claim. Okay, once again I am posting a link at the bottom to the United Nation`s Universal Declaration of Human Rights for your convenience. Please come up with an argument without flattering me with my personal traits:
http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm
Sattar # various:
Throughout this debate I have stressed on structuring the discussion on two bases:
1. Examine the Blasphemy Law and see whether it is valid or not.
2. Examine the punishment under this law and see whether it is valid or not.
The reason why I wanted to structure this argument, was discussed in several of my posts. However, the debate went on despite this disagreement. So far we have examined the law through various perspective and analyzed that :
1. Why and how law was enacted.
2.Whether the law is discriminatory according to any standard.
3. Does the law violate any standards set by non-Islamic jurisprudence?
4. Does the law violate any standards set by Islamic jurisprudence and therefore it is non-Islamic?
5. Examined the question whether law is invalid because if we somehow prove that punishment is invalid. (This point can be inferred while we were examining point 4, whereas I still insist that this line of reasoning is illogical)
6. Does the law violate any basic Human Rights (still open for discussion).
All of these issues were raised by Mr. Sattar and they were appropriately answered by me in several of my lengthy posts. Instead of raising counter-arguments Mr. Sattar has chosen to discuss the personality of Yours Truly. Which is also fine by me. I am used to this kind of logic too, which I have termed as ``the Hindu Logic``. The Hindu use this logic all the time when they run out of arguments they pass a callous remark on Holy Prophet (pbuh); when issue of hunger disease and AIDS in India is discussed their answer is ``Blasphemy Law is dicriminatory``; they write posts after posts telling me that I am a psychopath whereas the issue is the excesses of Indian Army in Kashmir. But I must credit you for one thing that you have not lowered yourself as low as dragging my mother into the argument (but Hindus did). But Mr. Sattar I must tell you that you are losing it. At least when we were discussing PPC Section 298, the Quadiani specific law, on Omar Mirza`s board you managed to preserve your dignity.
http://www.chowk.com/bin/showa.cgi?omirza_sep1200
But if you are frequent at Chowk you must know that I have rhinoceros skin as Shandhana Minhas once put it. I am impervious to personal insults. But Mr. Sattar you shocked me. I always thought that the ``Hindu Logic`` is particular to Hindus only but when I saw you doing it, it shattered the whole belief system. It is quite a shock for a bigot like me to realize that the ``Hindu Logic`` is actually ``Loser Logic``. Well, this is a cruel and uncertain world we live in.
You keep on harping about ``Muslim Psyche`` argument yet you reply the argument with an analysis of my personality, as to how cunning, how dishonest, and how slippery I am yet tactfully avoid the questions which I have asked upteenth time:
1. Either the Muslim Psyche (as under scrutiny) does not exist.
Or
2. it exists but it has not played any role or very little role in the formulation of the Blasphemy Law.
Am I right to assume that you have nothing more to say on this subject?
You have mentioned 10`s of time that the Blasphemy Laws violate ``some`` basic human rights; yet you have failed to present any argument to support your claim. Okay, once again I am posting a link at the bottom to the United Nation`s Universal Declaration of Human Rights for your convenience. Please come up with an argument without flattering me with my personal traits:
http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm
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#1034 Posted by temporal on August 31, 2001 1:36:57 pm
(As per orders from shaikh ul-ibniyaat ibn-bin-ibn-bin-ibn: 98 bottles;)
Gowardhan #1081
[...Many of my posts are only for them so kindly ignore them even if I mention Islam in them....]
...heheh...i understand this as a relief mechanism to thwart invectives and posters around...but I feel there is a greater need for focus...thrash and beat to pulp only the shallow poster...or his/her sophistic arguments...if we try to avoid making any blanket statements...it may induce some more calm?...
...and then of course there is another alternative...ignore the ignorant...but that has other pitfalls...
...so...do what you must...just avoid ‘blanket’ condemnation and posturing...
rgds
t
Gowardhan #1081
[...Many of my posts are only for them so kindly ignore them even if I mention Islam in them....]
...heheh...i understand this as a relief mechanism to thwart invectives and posters around...but I feel there is a greater need for focus...thrash and beat to pulp only the shallow poster...or his/her sophistic arguments...if we try to avoid making any blanket statements...it may induce some more calm?...
...and then of course there is another alternative...ignore the ignorant...but that has other pitfalls...
...so...do what you must...just avoid ‘blanket’ condemnation and posturing...
rgds
t
#1033 Posted by saminashah on August 31, 2001 12:57:01 pm
Rdesikhan, Zafar, Gowardhan
If Fury is out, perhaps we can get a reading discussion group on it going. Lets say we convene in about two weeks? Maybe one of us should write a book review of it, so we have a specific area to discuss matters Rushdian. I suggest any Chowkwallah who has read all of his works, and hopefully Upman, Sadna, Hamid, Nasah, would be interested. What do you think?
Btw, I am going to be attending a lecture by Rushdie Sahib in the future, so I`ll report back on it. I`d love to tell you where, but there are too many unbalanced personalities running around here.
regards
If Fury is out, perhaps we can get a reading discussion group on it going. Lets say we convene in about two weeks? Maybe one of us should write a book review of it, so we have a specific area to discuss matters Rushdian. I suggest any Chowkwallah who has read all of his works, and hopefully Upman, Sadna, Hamid, Nasah, would be interested. What do you think?
Btw, I am going to be attending a lecture by Rushdie Sahib in the future, so I`ll report back on it. I`d love to tell you where, but there are too many unbalanced personalities running around here.
regards
#1032 Posted by Gowardhan on August 31, 2001 12:57:01 pm
nasah 1070
Everytime I read you, zafar and other decent Muslims I become convinced that Pakistani Jihadism is a mental disease instead of real Islam. It is a shame these people call themselves leaders of Muslims. Many of my posts are only for them so kindly ignore them even if I mention Islam in them.
Everytime I read you, zafar and other decent Muslims I become convinced that Pakistani Jihadism is a mental disease instead of real Islam. It is a shame these people call themselves leaders of Muslims. Many of my posts are only for them so kindly ignore them even if I mention Islam in them.
#1031 Posted by Gowardhan on August 31, 2001 12:57:01 pm
Stuka
No use wasting time explaining things to ylh. A person who hasnt learnt anything after reading twenty books wont learn on Chowk.
No use wasting time explaining things to ylh. A person who hasnt learnt anything after reading twenty books wont learn on Chowk.
#1030 Posted by sadna on August 31, 2001 11:59:23 am
Zafar #1051
I didnot understand your question, sorry, my mistake. Let me try to clarify:
``IMO expat Indians should not sponsor ANY political/religious causes in India.
I have no objection to expats getting involved with MOST social activism tackling social evils,as long as resident Indians get to decide (for most part) which those should be``
If Indians make bad decisions in their homeland, they suffer the consequences. But expats who make bad decisions(and multiply the illeffects by the dollar-to-rupee ratio), firstly, do so based on perceptions skewed by distance and isolation and secondly, donot suffer the consequences of their actions.
btw, Zafar, your good humor and clear arguments on every front deserve all other chowk interactors gratitude. Thanks!
And as representative BJP member, do consider a Mississipi Maha Kumbh :)
I didnot understand your question, sorry, my mistake. Let me try to clarify:
``IMO expat Indians should not sponsor ANY political/religious causes in India.
I have no objection to expats getting involved with MOST social activism tackling social evils,as long as resident Indians get to decide (for most part) which those should be``
If Indians make bad decisions in their homeland, they suffer the consequences. But expats who make bad decisions(and multiply the illeffects by the dollar-to-rupee ratio), firstly, do so based on perceptions skewed by distance and isolation and secondly, donot suffer the consequences of their actions.
btw, Zafar, your good humor and clear arguments on every front deserve all other chowk interactors gratitude. Thanks!
And as representative BJP member, do consider a Mississipi Maha Kumbh :)
#1029 Posted by nasah on August 31, 2001 11:19:39 am
Dear hobbyty:
re#1037
The value of tangible property may be rising in Kashmir but the value of Muslim women as a ``property`` of Muslims men -- is hitting bottom in Kashmir – thanks to Pakistan.
The barbarism and backwardness of these Jihadi fundamentalists -- to coerce now -- Kashmiri women with acid -- to hide their faces as if they have committed some crime -- now in Indian Kashmir -- is not going to succeed as it did in -- Afghanistan Iran and Pakistan – and this is one more REASON – as to why -- Indian portion of Kashmir -- specially the Kashmiri women – must never fall -- in the claws of Talibani barbarians of Pakistan.
And you call it a ``protest`` against the Indian occupation -- as if India has occupied Afghanistan and Pakistan as well.
Jihadi Fundamentalism -- is a Pakistani disease -- that went to Afghanistan – turned it into a barbarian country -- became an epidemic -- came back -- and now as a plague destroying all normal human values in Pakistan.
For you my dear friend -- hiding behind that long, repetitive, rambling verbiage -- and sitting on the fence may be an art form -- but the fact is that despite your intellectual gymnastics -- you sound more and more like a coward apologist for those jihadis criminals.
You are AFRAID to call a spade a spade because it is entirely ``your spade``.
I have yet to hear from you –– if you condemn blasphemy “law” and its killing -- this Pakistani men`s ``honour`` and its killings -- and this acid throwing business -- without IFs and BUTs.
You may be a romantic dreamer for “restructured” Pakistan (by an accidental Ayubian Ataturk) -- but the history of Pakistan is the history of dream wreckers – and this time as well – your dream may not escape the clutches of your history – unless you deal with the ugly NOW – call a spade a spade – and DO something about it –in your own country – and leave Kashmiri women alone.
hasan
USA
re#1037
The value of tangible property may be rising in Kashmir but the value of Muslim women as a ``property`` of Muslims men -- is hitting bottom in Kashmir – thanks to Pakistan.
The barbarism and backwardness of these Jihadi fundamentalists -- to coerce now -- Kashmiri women with acid -- to hide their faces as if they have committed some crime -- now in Indian Kashmir -- is not going to succeed as it did in -- Afghanistan Iran and Pakistan – and this is one more REASON – as to why -- Indian portion of Kashmir -- specially the Kashmiri women – must never fall -- in the claws of Talibani barbarians of Pakistan.
And you call it a ``protest`` against the Indian occupation -- as if India has occupied Afghanistan and Pakistan as well.
Jihadi Fundamentalism -- is a Pakistani disease -- that went to Afghanistan – turned it into a barbarian country -- became an epidemic -- came back -- and now as a plague destroying all normal human values in Pakistan.
For you my dear friend -- hiding behind that long, repetitive, rambling verbiage -- and sitting on the fence may be an art form -- but the fact is that despite your intellectual gymnastics -- you sound more and more like a coward apologist for those jihadis criminals.
You are AFRAID to call a spade a spade because it is entirely ``your spade``.
I have yet to hear from you –– if you condemn blasphemy “law” and its killing -- this Pakistani men`s ``honour`` and its killings -- and this acid throwing business -- without IFs and BUTs.
You may be a romantic dreamer for “restructured” Pakistan (by an accidental Ayubian Ataturk) -- but the history of Pakistan is the history of dream wreckers – and this time as well – your dream may not escape the clutches of your history – unless you deal with the ugly NOW – call a spade a spade – and DO something about it –in your own country – and leave Kashmiri women alone.
hasan
USA
#1028 Posted by nasah on August 31, 2001 11:19:39 am
Dear hobbyty:
re#1037
The value of tangible property may be rising in Kashmir but the value of Muslim women as a ``property`` of Muslims men -- is hitting bottom in Kashmir – thanks to Pakistan.
The barbarism and backwardness of these Jihadi fundamentalists -- to coerce now -- Kashmiri women with acid -- to hide their faces as if they have committed some crime -- now in Indian Kashmir -- is not going to succeed as it did in -- Afghanistan Iran and Pakistan – and this is one more REASON – as to why -- Indian portion of Kashmir -- specially the Kashmiri women – must never fall -- in the claws of Talibani barbarians of Pakistan.
And you call it a ``protest`` against the Indian occupation -- as if India has occupied Afghanistan and Pakistan as well.
Jihadi Fundamentalism -- is a Pakistani disease -- that went to Afghanistan – turned it into a barbarian country -- became an epidemic -- came back -- and now as a plague destroying all normal human values in Pakistan.
For you my dear friend -- hiding behind that long, repetitive, rambling verbiage -- and sitting on the fence may be an art form -- but the fact is that despite your intellectual gymnastics -- you sound more and more like a coward apologist for those jihadis criminals.
You are AFRAIDnto call a spade a spade because it is entirely ``your spade``.
I have yet to hear from you –– if you condemn blasphemy “law” and its killing -- this Pakistani men`s ``honour`` and its killings -- and this acid throwing business -- without IFs and BUTs.
You may be a romantic dreamer for “restructured” Pakistan (by an accidental Ayubian Ataturk) -- but the history of Pakistan is the history of dream wreckers – and this time as well – your dream may not escape the clutches of your history – unless you deal with the ugly NOW – call a spade a spade – and DO something about it –in your own country – and leave Kashmiri women alone.
hasan
USA
re#1037
The value of tangible property may be rising in Kashmir but the value of Muslim women as a ``property`` of Muslims men -- is hitting bottom in Kashmir – thanks to Pakistan.
The barbarism and backwardness of these Jihadi fundamentalists -- to coerce now -- Kashmiri women with acid -- to hide their faces as if they have committed some crime -- now in Indian Kashmir -- is not going to succeed as it did in -- Afghanistan Iran and Pakistan – and this is one more REASON – as to why -- Indian portion of Kashmir -- specially the Kashmiri women – must never fall -- in the claws of Talibani barbarians of Pakistan.
And you call it a ``protest`` against the Indian occupation -- as if India has occupied Afghanistan and Pakistan as well.
Jihadi Fundamentalism -- is a Pakistani disease -- that went to Afghanistan – turned it into a barbarian country -- became an epidemic -- came back -- and now as a plague destroying all normal human values in Pakistan.
For you my dear friend -- hiding behind that long, repetitive, rambling verbiage -- and sitting on the fence may be an art form -- but the fact is that despite your intellectual gymnastics -- you sound more and more like a coward apologist for those jihadis criminals.
You are AFRAIDnto call a spade a spade because it is entirely ``your spade``.
I have yet to hear from you –– if you condemn blasphemy “law” and its killing -- this Pakistani men`s ``honour`` and its killings -- and this acid throwing business -- without IFs and BUTs.
You may be a romantic dreamer for “restructured” Pakistan (by an accidental Ayubian Ataturk) -- but the history of Pakistan is the history of dream wreckers – and this time as well – your dream may not escape the clutches of your history – unless you deal with the ugly NOW – call a spade a spade – and DO something about it –in your own country – and leave Kashmiri women alone.
hasan
USA
#1027 Posted by Rdesikan on August 31, 2001 11:19:39 am
Re Saminashah, Zafar et al
In today`s NY times, a review by Michiko Kakutani on Fury. Will spare you the entire text which can be accessed at:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/31/books/31BOOK.html
BTW, a fair assessment, though I just got through the book and thought it was okay, but not as grand as the Moor or Midnight.
Re Sattar2
Man it took you this long to figure out the true innards of urstruly?
In today`s NY times, a review by Michiko Kakutani on Fury. Will spare you the entire text which can be accessed at:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/31/books/31BOOK.html
BTW, a fair assessment, though I just got through the book and thought it was okay, but not as grand as the Moor or Midnight.
Re Sattar2
Man it took you this long to figure out the true innards of urstruly?
#1026 Posted by stuka on August 31, 2001 11:19:39 am
Hey YLH
I read your letter in the Friday Times. Guess you have seen it by now. Did you also notice the cartoon the Friday Times has published right by the letter?
Tell me your perception of why the cartoon was placed there and what it signifies to you.
Regarding your question:
1 Why did Muslims start violence in the Hindu Majority city, while all the Muslim Majority Areas
remained silent?
The answer is Suhrawardy. The main cities of Bengal were Dhaka and Calcutta. Suhrawardy`s base was in Calcutta. When Jinnah gave the call for Direct Action day, it gave Suhrawardy an opprtunity to demonstrate his own political strength. The Muslim League leader is Dhaka were actually far more secure in their position, and therefore the need to instigate violence. Did you know that after the Calcutta killings, Suhrawardy actually tried to move his own base to Dhaka, but was not allowed to gain ground by the local leaders of the League. Hence his effort to make up with Gandhi.
Even after partition came into being, Suhrawardy enjoyed a public profile in a national sense in Pakistan, but never had a strong local political base. Kinda like IK Gujral of India, who became prime minister, but needs help of other bigwigs to win a local election.
I read your letter in the Friday Times. Guess you have seen it by now. Did you also notice the cartoon the Friday Times has published right by the letter?
Tell me your perception of why the cartoon was placed there and what it signifies to you.
Regarding your question:
1 Why did Muslims start violence in the Hindu Majority city, while all the Muslim Majority Areas
remained silent?
The answer is Suhrawardy. The main cities of Bengal were Dhaka and Calcutta. Suhrawardy`s base was in Calcutta. When Jinnah gave the call for Direct Action day, it gave Suhrawardy an opprtunity to demonstrate his own political strength. The Muslim League leader is Dhaka were actually far more secure in their position, and therefore the need to instigate violence. Did you know that after the Calcutta killings, Suhrawardy actually tried to move his own base to Dhaka, but was not allowed to gain ground by the local leaders of the League. Hence his effort to make up with Gandhi.
Even after partition came into being, Suhrawardy enjoyed a public profile in a national sense in Pakistan, but never had a strong local political base. Kinda like IK Gujral of India, who became prime minister, but needs help of other bigwigs to win a local election.
#1025 Posted by Bapu on August 31, 2001 11:19:39 am
http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/15082001/07.htm
OUT OF SIGHT OUT OF MIND,TO JAY,Gowardhan & Harimou ,ts all nectar & honey Land!
Carnage in Sirswan God - who dunnit?...
‘Not a single penny, no jewelry or any other valuable item was stolen from any of the four Muslims families assaulted, kicked, killed and raped with unprecedented cruelty and barbarism’ is what our correspondent, S Ubaidur Rahman, discovered in Sirswan God. Refusal of two government hospitals to admit the critically injured points to the usual hands which are trying these days to polarize the voters on many caste and religious lines. Locals claim that it was a revenge for the Doda massacre... Yet our hon’ble home minister claims that it was an act of criminals.Memory fails to discover a similar failed and blind home minister who is desperately trying to step into his boss’s shoes...
Top: Two houses off the highway, where both families lost four members;
below from left: young victim Shabana, Lateefan, Bhure and Nabi Bakhsh father of Shabana and Raees who was killed.
We have heard stories of human barbarism in different places, seen massacres ourselves, but what took place here in Sirsawan God, a sleepy village on the Ram Nagar-Kashipur highway off Rampur-Moradabad Road on 23 July outdoes every other recent incident in cruelty. Not only seven people belonging to four Muslim families were killed in cold blood but thirteen others were also left in a critical condition and it is believed that they were taken as dead by the assailants. All people either injured or killed were found stark naked when people reached when the news spread in the area. Women were raped and killed. Even a two-year-old girl was not spared. She was tossed in the air and when people reached she was barely breathing.
The most tragic incident is that of Shabana. Just twelve-year-old this innocent girl was carried two hundred meters away from her house that lies just off the main highway barely 15 kilometers away from Moradabad and raped repeatedly by people whose number she fails to count. If that was not enough she was also injured brutally by those who outraged her modesty. Another woman, Sagheeran, wife of Hanif, who was five months pregnant was also repeatedly raped and critically injured.
From two-years-old to 80 years-old, they did not spare anyone. Rubeena, only two-years old, was killed. Tarannum, just five-years-old, was murdered. Zareef, her twelve-year-old brother, was also not spared. He too was killed on the spot. Latifan, in her late eighties, was critically injured. A mentally-retarded septuagenarian lady was also assaulted brutally by those devils who attacked four families simultaneously. Strangely, not a single penny, no jewelry or any other valuable item was stolen from any of the four Muslims families assaulted, kicked, killed and raped with unprecedented cruelty and barbarism.
The drama did not end with the death of so many people and deadliest of injuries to a number of others. It stretched longer. If villagers and relatives of the deceased and injured are to be believed, police and administration did everything to prevent more than a dozen injured people from getting timely medical assistance. It sound unbelievable that all the thirteen injured people were denied admission in the Moradabad Civil Hospital, which has all the necessary facilities for such emergencies. Relatives who took the seriously injured people to this hospital say that they were told by the administration to take the patients to Meerut.
It takes four good hours to reach Meerut from Moradabad using broken roads. But even reaching Meerut did not solve their problem. Shakeel, who lost four members of his family, told MG that ‘they were told that the Meerut Civil Hospital was on strike. Shakeel claims that there were no signs of a strike as other patients were being taken care of and even being provided with admission and OPD facilities. We were told to take the people who were barely breathing to the All India Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS) in Delhi, another three hours journey from Meerut. When we asked them to give us in writing that there was a strike and refusal to treat the patients, the hospital officials did not budge.’ Shakeel adds that when we said that we don’t know the route to Delhi the officials promptly agreed to guide us towards the main road leading to Delhi. But they refused to admit our patients. Later the patients, who were battling for their lives, were brought back to Moradabad and were taken care by a local physician, Dr TH Mehdi Hasan, who said that he will treat the patients as best as he can. He has treated all the patients in his clinic and has charged nothing. Others who were more critically injured were admitted in the private Sai Hospital.
The ghastly drama was enacted with meticulous planning. It is believed that all the members of the four families were intoxicated with something resembling chloroform. So no one has any idea as to what happened later. They all were asleep when this incident took place. Even the people who received deadliest injuries have no idea of what happened with them. Bhura, around twenty-years-old, who received cuts in his neck, head and face and has not recovered fully even now fails to come up with any idea as to what happened on that night.
Villagers see political motive behind the killing. Nabi Bukhsh who lost his son Rais, a village wrestler, says that he is unable to think of anyone who could kill his son and rape his innocent daughter, Shabana. Shakeel who was out on that fateful night, says that, ‘these killings were political. We had no quarrel with anyone. We are simple labourers and petty farmers. We have no money. And whatever we had was not even touched by those devil forces who attacked our families. There must be some political motive behind this whole drama,’ he says with tears rolling down his eyes.
Another villager, Asrar, insists that it was just political motive that was involved in the whole carnage. Asrar who helped carry the injured to the hospitals to Moradabad and Meerut says that there were some concrete indication to their suspicions.
Villagers point out that either the police was directly involved in the whole drama or it was at least aware of what was happening in Sirswan God. The site where Shabana was repeatedly raped by several people gave enough indications towards it. A police cap and UP police belt was found near the bush where the small girl was meted with a heinous crime. Zahid, another villager, who came to the house after hearing the screams says that he saw a police van stationed nearby. Even young Shabana claims to have seen the police van. According to the villagers, Nepal Singh, a sub-inspector in the nearby Bhojpur police station, claims to have heard the screams but says that he thought it was a family quarrel. This correspondent tried to contact Nepal Singh in Bhojpur Police Station but he was not available.
There are other elements that make things complicated. Asrar Ahmad claims that when he came to the spot the police was loading all the dead and injured people on a van. When he told them that there are some people still breathing, they tried to ignore him. ‘They would have carried the injured people also to the morgue if some other people had not joined me in objecting to such callous move’ says Asrar.
People in Moradabad also see political motive in the incident. Mohammad Ameen, a local BSP leader, says that the Saffron parties are trying to communally vitiate the environment before the forthcoming assembly elections in the state. He adds that the prospects of the BJP have touched such a nadir that in desperation it can resort to anything in order to win the forthcoming elections. He says that saffron parties are now resorting to arousing communal frenzy for their short term gains. He says that repeated incidents of the same kind amply reflect this.
Moradabad has seen two total bandhs since the incident. People are feeling outraged over the incident and more so over the inaction of the administration in response to such a tragic incident. Salim Ahmad, a Muslim leader of the area, told MG that the whole incident smells of some plan behind it.
Anger and disenchantment against the administration are brewing among the people in Moradabad. Maulana Sharif Ahmad, Sajjada Nashin of Dargah Hazrat Khwaja Abdur Rahim Shah, says, ‘had such an incident happened with a Hindu family the whole village would have been set on fire.’ He says that when two Hindus were killed some two years ago in a nearby village, the police cordoned off the whole area and interrogated each and every person even in the nearby villagers.
People here laugh at the theory being put forward by the home minister that it was the handiwork of criminal tribals. Hanif, who lost his wife, twelve-year-old son and a five-years-old daughter, says that it is just a gimmick to save the culprits. Shakeel, his nephew, says that no tribal can be so cruel. He says that it was done by some very beastly people whose hearts had been taken out from their bodies.
Shakil alleges that the administration is involved in this incident some way or the other. He says that though a number of political and social leaders have visited his family and other survivors but not a single BJP minister in UP has visited the area so far. He adds that not a single word has been heard from UP Chief Minister Raj Nath Singh condemning the incident. He asked this correspondent as to whether any word sympathizing with the survivors or the relatives of the killed has been spoken by Advani, Vajpayee or some other BJP leaders. Others too repeated this question.
There is another story going round in the area. There are people who claim that the killing were a revenge for the recent massacre of some Hindus in Doda district in Jammu & Kashmir. This theory is fast gaining hold in the area. Administration’s lax attitude in this whole drama is giving more credence to such rumours.
Villagers are still aghast. When this correspondent visited the area it was more than a week after the ghastly incident, but the incident was quite alive in the air.
Whole families have been destroyed. Surviving relatives are unable to forget those who were killed and the way they were killed. They pray for the deceased, pray for the people who are battling for their lives and curse those who did this to them. The only solace for them is that all the villagers, people in surrounding villages, Moradabad city and all other areas and even people from far-off places are sympathizing with them and coming forward to offer them financial, social and emotional help. A number of political, social and religious leaders have also visited the village to offer their sympathies.
Shabana gazes in the air. Hanif recalls his lovely daughter, Tarannum, and ever-laughing son, Zareef. Nabi Bakhsh lives with the memories of his beloved son Raees. Anwar cries inconsolably remembering his wife, Shahjahan, who was raped and killed and his two-year-old daughter Rubina. All of themdemand one thing in unison: justice and justice alone. q
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OUT OF SIGHT OUT OF MIND,TO JAY,Gowardhan & Harimou ,ts all nectar & honey Land!
Carnage in Sirswan God - who dunnit?...
‘Not a single penny, no jewelry or any other valuable item was stolen from any of the four Muslims families assaulted, kicked, killed and raped with unprecedented cruelty and barbarism’ is what our correspondent, S Ubaidur Rahman, discovered in Sirswan God. Refusal of two government hospitals to admit the critically injured points to the usual hands which are trying these days to polarize the voters on many caste and religious lines. Locals claim that it was a revenge for the Doda massacre... Yet our hon’ble home minister claims that it was an act of criminals.Memory fails to discover a similar failed and blind home minister who is desperately trying to step into his boss’s shoes...
Top: Two houses off the highway, where both families lost four members;
below from left: young victim Shabana, Lateefan, Bhure and Nabi Bakhsh father of Shabana and Raees who was killed.
We have heard stories of human barbarism in different places, seen massacres ourselves, but what took place here in Sirsawan God, a sleepy village on the Ram Nagar-Kashipur highway off Rampur-Moradabad Road on 23 July outdoes every other recent incident in cruelty. Not only seven people belonging to four Muslim families were killed in cold blood but thirteen others were also left in a critical condition and it is believed that they were taken as dead by the assailants. All people either injured or killed were found stark naked when people reached when the news spread in the area. Women were raped and killed. Even a two-year-old girl was not spared. She was tossed in the air and when people reached she was barely breathing.
The most tragic incident is that of Shabana. Just twelve-year-old this innocent girl was carried two hundred meters away from her house that lies just off the main highway barely 15 kilometers away from Moradabad and raped repeatedly by people whose number she fails to count. If that was not enough she was also injured brutally by those who outraged her modesty. Another woman, Sagheeran, wife of Hanif, who was five months pregnant was also repeatedly raped and critically injured.
From two-years-old to 80 years-old, they did not spare anyone. Rubeena, only two-years old, was killed. Tarannum, just five-years-old, was murdered. Zareef, her twelve-year-old brother, was also not spared. He too was killed on the spot. Latifan, in her late eighties, was critically injured. A mentally-retarded septuagenarian lady was also assaulted brutally by those devils who attacked four families simultaneously. Strangely, not a single penny, no jewelry or any other valuable item was stolen from any of the four Muslims families assaulted, kicked, killed and raped with unprecedented cruelty and barbarism.
The drama did not end with the death of so many people and deadliest of injuries to a number of others. It stretched longer. If villagers and relatives of the deceased and injured are to be believed, police and administration did everything to prevent more than a dozen injured people from getting timely medical assistance. It sound unbelievable that all the thirteen injured people were denied admission in the Moradabad Civil Hospital, which has all the necessary facilities for such emergencies. Relatives who took the seriously injured people to this hospital say that they were told by the administration to take the patients to Meerut.
It takes four good hours to reach Meerut from Moradabad using broken roads. But even reaching Meerut did not solve their problem. Shakeel, who lost four members of his family, told MG that ‘they were told that the Meerut Civil Hospital was on strike. Shakeel claims that there were no signs of a strike as other patients were being taken care of and even being provided with admission and OPD facilities. We were told to take the people who were barely breathing to the All India Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS) in Delhi, another three hours journey from Meerut. When we asked them to give us in writing that there was a strike and refusal to treat the patients, the hospital officials did not budge.’ Shakeel adds that when we said that we don’t know the route to Delhi the officials promptly agreed to guide us towards the main road leading to Delhi. But they refused to admit our patients. Later the patients, who were battling for their lives, were brought back to Moradabad and were taken care by a local physician, Dr TH Mehdi Hasan, who said that he will treat the patients as best as he can. He has treated all the patients in his clinic and has charged nothing. Others who were more critically injured were admitted in the private Sai Hospital.
The ghastly drama was enacted with meticulous planning. It is believed that all the members of the four families were intoxicated with something resembling chloroform. So no one has any idea as to what happened later. They all were asleep when this incident took place. Even the people who received deadliest injuries have no idea of what happened with them. Bhura, around twenty-years-old, who received cuts in his neck, head and face and has not recovered fully even now fails to come up with any idea as to what happened on that night.
Villagers see political motive behind the killing. Nabi Bukhsh who lost his son Rais, a village wrestler, says that he is unable to think of anyone who could kill his son and rape his innocent daughter, Shabana. Shakeel who was out on that fateful night, says that, ‘these killings were political. We had no quarrel with anyone. We are simple labourers and petty farmers. We have no money. And whatever we had was not even touched by those devil forces who attacked our families. There must be some political motive behind this whole drama,’ he says with tears rolling down his eyes.
Another villager, Asrar, insists that it was just political motive that was involved in the whole carnage. Asrar who helped carry the injured to the hospitals to Moradabad and Meerut says that there were some concrete indication to their suspicions.
Villagers point out that either the police was directly involved in the whole drama or it was at least aware of what was happening in Sirswan God. The site where Shabana was repeatedly raped by several people gave enough indications towards it. A police cap and UP police belt was found near the bush where the small girl was meted with a heinous crime. Zahid, another villager, who came to the house after hearing the screams says that he saw a police van stationed nearby. Even young Shabana claims to have seen the police van. According to the villagers, Nepal Singh, a sub-inspector in the nearby Bhojpur police station, claims to have heard the screams but says that he thought it was a family quarrel. This correspondent tried to contact Nepal Singh in Bhojpur Police Station but he was not available.
There are other elements that make things complicated. Asrar Ahmad claims that when he came to the spot the police was loading all the dead and injured people on a van. When he told them that there are some people still breathing, they tried to ignore him. ‘They would have carried the injured people also to the morgue if some other people had not joined me in objecting to such callous move’ says Asrar.
People in Moradabad also see political motive in the incident. Mohammad Ameen, a local BSP leader, says that the Saffron parties are trying to communally vitiate the environment before the forthcoming assembly elections in the state. He adds that the prospects of the BJP have touched such a nadir that in desperation it can resort to anything in order to win the forthcoming elections. He says that saffron parties are now resorting to arousing communal frenzy for their short term gains. He says that repeated incidents of the same kind amply reflect this.
Moradabad has seen two total bandhs since the incident. People are feeling outraged over the incident and more so over the inaction of the administration in response to such a tragic incident. Salim Ahmad, a Muslim leader of the area, told MG that the whole incident smells of some plan behind it.
Anger and disenchantment against the administration are brewing among the people in Moradabad. Maulana Sharif Ahmad, Sajjada Nashin of Dargah Hazrat Khwaja Abdur Rahim Shah, says, ‘had such an incident happened with a Hindu family the whole village would have been set on fire.’ He says that when two Hindus were killed some two years ago in a nearby village, the police cordoned off the whole area and interrogated each and every person even in the nearby villagers.
People here laugh at the theory being put forward by the home minister that it was the handiwork of criminal tribals. Hanif, who lost his wife, twelve-year-old son and a five-years-old daughter, says that it is just a gimmick to save the culprits. Shakeel, his nephew, says that no tribal can be so cruel. He says that it was done by some very beastly people whose hearts had been taken out from their bodies.
Shakil alleges that the administration is involved in this incident some way or the other. He says that though a number of political and social leaders have visited his family and other survivors but not a single BJP minister in UP has visited the area so far. He adds that not a single word has been heard from UP Chief Minister Raj Nath Singh condemning the incident. He asked this correspondent as to whether any word sympathizing with the survivors or the relatives of the killed has been spoken by Advani, Vajpayee or some other BJP leaders. Others too repeated this question.
There is another story going round in the area. There are people who claim that the killing were a revenge for the recent massacre of some Hindus in Doda district in Jammu & Kashmir. This theory is fast gaining hold in the area. Administration’s lax attitude in this whole drama is giving more credence to such rumours.
Villagers are still aghast. When this correspondent visited the area it was more than a week after the ghastly incident, but the incident was quite alive in the air.
Whole families have been destroyed. Surviving relatives are unable to forget those who were killed and the way they were killed. They pray for the deceased, pray for the people who are battling for their lives and curse those who did this to them. The only solace for them is that all the villagers, people in surrounding villages, Moradabad city and all other areas and even people from far-off places are sympathizing with them and coming forward to offer them financial, social and emotional help. A number of political, social and religious leaders have also visited the village to offer their sympathies.
Shabana gazes in the air. Hanif recalls his lovely daughter, Tarannum, and ever-laughing son, Zareef. Nabi Bakhsh lives with the memories of his beloved son Raees. Anwar cries inconsolably remembering his wife, Shahjahan, who was raped and killed and his two-year-old daughter Rubina. All of themdemand one thing in unison: justice and justice alone. q
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#1024 Posted by stuka on August 31, 2001 11:19:39 am
Hey PM
I think you are mistaking me for someone eslse. I didn`t say anything about NAMBLA. They can all be lined up and executed for all I care.
I think you are mistaking me for someone eslse. I didn`t say anything about NAMBLA. They can all be lined up and executed for all I care.
#1023 Posted by Gowardhan on August 31, 2001 11:19:39 am
Fact on Jihadis
[The number of donations boxes for these organisations has increased enormously - something which had never seen before. ]
http://jang.com.pk/thenews/aug2001-daily/31-08-2001/oped/newspost.htm
[The number of donations boxes for these organisations has increased enormously - something which had never seen before. ]
http://jang.com.pk/thenews/aug2001-daily/31-08-2001/oped/newspost.htm
#1022 Posted by stuka on August 31, 2001 11:19:39 am
Zafar
``In fact the whole subject of how the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire affected Muslims outside Ottoman ruled areas is quite interesting – I suspect that, unsullied by mundane interaction, the Khilafat had a far higher prestige in these areas than in those actually within the Empire.``
This theory is quite valid in today`s corporate culture. When you are in the field, you think of the corporate office as all pervasive, something with an aura. Ofcourse, then you move to the corporate office, get a close look at higher management, and suddenly they don`t look so smart.
``In fact the whole subject of how the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire affected Muslims outside Ottoman ruled areas is quite interesting – I suspect that, unsullied by mundane interaction, the Khilafat had a far higher prestige in these areas than in those actually within the Empire.``
This theory is quite valid in today`s corporate culture. When you are in the field, you think of the corporate office as all pervasive, something with an aura. Ofcourse, then you move to the corporate office, get a close look at higher management, and suddenly they don`t look so smart.
#1021 Posted by soysauce on August 31, 2001 11:19:39 am
#1018 hobbyty
If this is a protest, it must be a message to the hindus of kashmir that kashmir=muslim. Unlike in Turkey, say, muslims feel free to wear burkha in india. In the deep south where muslims are reasonably well integrated into the mainstream you see a lot of full-body burkhas. What`s happening in kashmir is talibenization, since the organizations enforcing them owe their existence to the taliban one or way or another.
On the protest thing, perhaps you can then understand the response of westerners to seeing burkhas pop up in their middle - it`s an ``in your face`` protest against their culture. We wouldn`t take to it kindly either if western tourists to our countries brought cultural baggages with them that are at sharp variance with aspects of our culture(s).
If this is a protest, it must be a message to the hindus of kashmir that kashmir=muslim. Unlike in Turkey, say, muslims feel free to wear burkha in india. In the deep south where muslims are reasonably well integrated into the mainstream you see a lot of full-body burkhas. What`s happening in kashmir is talibenization, since the organizations enforcing them owe their existence to the taliban one or way or another.
On the protest thing, perhaps you can then understand the response of westerners to seeing burkhas pop up in their middle - it`s an ``in your face`` protest against their culture. We wouldn`t take to it kindly either if western tourists to our countries brought cultural baggages with them that are at sharp variance with aspects of our culture(s).
#1020 Posted by saminashah on August 31, 2001 11:19:39 am
Gowardhanji
I think you make some good points!
regards
I think you make some good points!
regards
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