A Pakistani School’s Visit to India

Reply YLH #1034

Yasser

“Kindly explain your assertion that Pakistan used a neo khilafat strategy to state and people, because I believe you had yourself stated on another board that Modernist and Reformist Muslims supported the creation of Pakistan, whereas traditionalists for the most part opposed it?”

Two points:

I don’t think “neo-khilafat” automatically excludes Modernist and Reformist. (For example, a system of Islamic Law which has been reviewed in light of social changes and understandings could very well sit squarely within an authentic khilafat system.)

Under the khilafat, nationality was defined by religion. Subcontinental Muslims who supported the creation of Pakistan held this to be (at least somewhat) true for themselves as well, while people opposed to Partition did not. (This approach is also reflected in separate electorates in Pakistan.)

(I realise that you can support your view that Jinnah’s stated goal was a country where nationality was not defined by religion, but if that was all that country was going to be about, why bother with a population exchange? It seems about as reasonable as Israel’s claim to be a Jewish Democratic state with equal rights for all its citizens, even the non-Jewish ones. But let it go, I am aware of your opinion on it.)

“Furthermore Pakistan you have to agree has never had a religious party in charge but always secularists, and pseudo secularists in charge with the exception of Zia.”

Yes, but handsome is as handsome does. What was the outcome? And how long did you have Zia?

“I can understand your desire to slander Pakistan, which I have come to understand on chowk is the binding factor of your nation, …Please dont take offence to this…”

No offence taken at all. I can understand your hypersensitivity when trying to defend an intellectual house of cards without fully understanding the words many people use when discussing your posts. Hope you don’t take offence at that either, none was meant. (Arre baba, just kidding, ghussa math ho.)

Zafar

Tibor

Under the title of the article is the name of the author - please spare me the gibberish about what you want -

You have gumption - then take it to Margolis, take it Durban - just spare me the rubbish about what a moral lot you are - In case you failed to notice it - Margolis says that this same practice has seeped into Pakistan.

Just fix the problem instead of justifying it or trying to excuse it away - we have outlawed it and now we will out law poverty. If it`s a bunch of half truths or plain lies - just ignore it. Thank you.

Zafar

My post was in regard to the burqa - do you agree that it`s a symbolic protest?

``I`d also be interested in knowing whether you define throwing acid in women`s faces as terrorism (I do) and if not, why not?``

Lashkar e Jabbar claimed resposibility for this act - Of course this is a criminal act! in other situations where such acts have taken place usually an irate or jilted man is involved - but here, according to reports the LeJ, did this for the express reason of seeing to it that burqa was mode - in other words, a political motive - and in that view it most certainly is terrorism.

Now as to who are Lashkar e Jabbar? Are they an Indian intelligence operation to discredit the Mujihdeen? Where have they been all this time - how come they suddenly showed up? I have suspicions.

Zafar

Zafar mian, what debate yaar? - And it`s hardy theological - hamid has not followed what Soroush is saying, (you do not become modern by declaration) that there are intellectual or theoretcial foundations to the ``modern`` - he points out how our theoretical foundations are ``traditional`` - he then develops a foundation of the modern with Islam. I expected questions, not personal hostility, I expected better from him.

What Soroush is saying is something we all know is the truth. Muslims want democracy, Muslims want a rights based political and social culture, Muslims cannot reconcile their ethics (traditional) with their morality (modern) and in order to reconcile them and in doing so make a transition from the traditional to the modern, means we have reexamine the notions that help us make the transitions and in doing so effect a change within Islamia.

Look at the kinds of things he argues for pluralism in religions, leading to pluralism in salvation (just think about that - with clearly developing these two ideas, with and outside an islamic persepective - he has taken the legs off the traditionalist idea that the only way is Islam and the only salvation is Islam and all others are going to, well, some place other than heaven. In other words, he introduces tolerance, he introduces a pluralistic society - all within an Islamic melieu - now it may not wok for hamid, but for god sake, there are others who find solutions that do not call for a break from their faith and their beliefs.

Soroush is arguing for a moral Muslim - he argues that the clergy must not be involved with political power - it robs them of their moral position within society, it degrades them as creators, innovators of learning, etc.

Think about it - not the rule following do`s and don`t type - but the moral actor. He even goes on to suggest that an Islamic state is not a necessity, but that a moral state is. In other words the power in society is derived from the development and acceptance of morality by that society - that Islamist are mistaken that they must take the state - what they must take is the moral high ground - if then they are elected, they may serve - it is an entirely different conception or paradigm - What`s there to be hostile or personal about in all of this? This I should like to know.

Faith not based on fear or inculcation, but on love, trust, risk. He even makes it clear how having doubts, how having to struggle for keeping your faith, is inherent in the definition of faith. (Expansion and Contraction)

I just do not believe Hamid got to understand where this guy is taking us. This stuff is not from Sinai, but it`s meaty, there`s a lot here we can use.

Ok - alert! this may sound condescending - I know this is not your cup of tea, and so I want to say that I appreciate even more the effort you have put in to be able to discuss some this. I`m really, grateful for the effort.

A warning though : About having answers - will you settle for a discussion?



Zafar, I am convinced that this is going to happen anyways - and mostly because a majority of educated muslims are already there - Press freedoms will only grow - even in Saudi, they live under despotism, but get their news from Qatar - it`s just not stoppable. Plus these ideas are spreading like a wild fire, I mean who is not investigating these ideas? The secularist socialists have failed Muslims, Secular democrats (such as they were) robbed us and then turned despot on us, the religious obscuritanists have failed Muslims, as they are just despots anyways. Islamic democracy? What do we have lose? despotism?

Reply Gowardhan #1040

I was quoting Bharathiya Mussalman. Sometimes he is very insightful (though it took me some time to recognise this. Keep it up BM.). Z

Ref: YLH # 1011

Thanks Yasser,

your points:

1. The words ``Fiqah``, ``Qanoon``, and ``Law`` are synonymous, literally, however, Fiqah is different from Qanoon and law in a sense that Fiqah derives law also from Quran and Hadis, however, Qanoon and law are totally secular. That is the reason in Arab countries the university`s depratments of law are named as Jamiah tul Fiqah o Qanoon.

2. Ijmah is not the fourth entity it is a part of Ijtehad. Therefore, there are only three components to asoole-fiqah:

a. Quran
b. Hadis
c. Ijtehad

3. I claim my ignorance here. The translation of Estehsan as Logical Equivalence was my own. I regret if I am wrong. # 974 urges all readers to cross refer.

But thanks for all your points,

Zafar Al-Talib 1030

[If you want symphathy for the Chinese Muslims, you will find oodles of it in India, a land where, due to Gandhian principles, we support the cause of all downtrodden peoples the world over]

HA HA HA HA HA!

Somebody has to support those people. Pakistanis have excommunicated them!

Seriously, never understood why Pan Islamists shepharding all the Muslims by recounting wholesale genocide being carried out by everyone daily all the time against peaceloving innocent Muslims never mention those wretched Chinese people. Does anybody have any idea? Is it all a big lie?

:-)

A Memorable Picture:

http://www.storyofpakistan.com/person.asp?perid=P009&Pg=9

A great site

http://www.storyofpakistan.com

Reply Hobbyty #1018

Hobbyty

``I think this burqa thing in Captive Kashmir is a symbol of political protest...So this is, in my opinion, a symbolic political protest that strengthens the argument that the Hindu Indian government`s military writs has no influence in Captive Kashmir.``

This may well be one of the intentions of the people who gave the deadline for burqah wearing by all Kashmiri women. But consider - if they had to throw acid in some poor women`s faces to frighten the others into doing what they were told, all it does is show ordinary Kashmiris` lack of support for this position. If it was a popular protest, nobody would have to be frightened into doing it.

I`d also be interested in knowing whether you define throwing acid in women`s faces as terrorism (I do) and if not, why not?

The fact that organisations are willing to commit acts like these says far more about who they are, how they really see women, and the kind of ``freedom`` they are fighting for than a hundred seductive press releases.

Zafar

PS I remember going to Indian Kashmir as a child. One saw very few burqah wearing women then. It didn`t seem to be a part of the Kashmiri tradition - in fact many of the women one saw were busy working, and wearing a burqah would have made that difficult. (Hard to herd sheep, for example.) If the LeJ`s edict is enforced through terror throughout Kashmir, what are Gujjar women, for example, going to do? Your thoughts?

Bharatvaasi

Dear Bhartvassi

That was a curious post: The property values going up in Kashmir because the local bureaucrats are stealing from government funds is the fault of Pakistan? Indian bureaucrats have attained a higher degree of success in their thieving? Pakistanis bureaucrats should be ashamed?

Indians who work in the Persian Gulf and who have the money and wish to spend it on property in Kashmir is the fault of Pakistan? Pakistani citizens should be ashamed? or embarrassed?

Pakistan funds for Jihad are causing a property boom in Kashmir? These funds are got going to towards training and caring for the families of freedom fighters? That is disturbing news, indeed. Indian spin doctoring, I suspect.

Here is what the article did not tell you and is the primary reason for the rise in property values: Besides stolen/misappropriated government funds, a significant reason for the rise in property value is the amount of funds that are generated by the spending of army pay in captive Kashmir and the significant amount of money spent on military related collateral spending - all these are the real reason for the rise in property value. The inclusion of more than 700,000 wage earners and the influx of government spending for items like barbed wire, food stuff, etc and this does not include spending on services. Just you consider what the implications are for an economy that has an influx of that much money - And still the freedom struggles continues.

Indians are doing well and Pakistanis should be trying to do everything they can to stop this? I think Pakistanis are not in any competition to wreck Indian lives - that just not who we are - I should hope that Indians do better than they are doing - it keeps them away from the Hindutva propensity - it gives them something to value and this is a human aspiration everybody understands -why not, don`t they have families too. We support the freedom of captive Kashmir, not the destruction of Indians.

India is not a poor third world country? People are not starving and dying of Hunger in parts of India? Million of Indians are not Dalits? Hindutva fanatics do not attack Christians and Muslims? The majority of Indians do not live in rural villages? or are all Indians writing code or engaged in biotech research? I urge you show some balance and composure.

I look for a resolution or diminshing of the freedom struggle in Captive Kashmir within the next two years - and yes a process similar to autonomy, after which it will be divided. As a matter of fact, I believe Americans have presented both the Indians and the Pakistanis with maps as to what that division might look like.

I think Pakistanis do not see Indians as barbarians - India is a country of profound contradictions, the poverty of India, the backwardness of it`s rural populace (the majority of Indians), it`s racist caste system - and the dynamism of it`s entrepreneurs, the vitality and vibrance of it`s cultures, the anchoring that thousand of years of history and culture afford it. I think most Pakistanis have a rather sober view of India - other than Kashmir and Hindutva, we have no problem with them, that effect us directly.

You are right that Pakistan has problems of it`s own and we should focus on these. Yes, of course, but we do not live in a vacuum. Kashmir is a concern for us - whether Indians like it or accept it or not - If Hindutva is not exposed, and rejected on a national level, they will create problems for Pakistan because the creation of Pakistan is for them is a division of ``their`` country and they have not and will not accept Pakistan. Vigilance is a must. SO what has Kashmir done for ordinary Pakistani? Is it supposed to do something for them? remember we are speaking of Pakistanis. Are you kin or have affinity with those who do something for you? Such notions are not the basis of kinship and affinity in Pakistan. Plus the Indians make it so easy. Have they been other than heavy handed, clumsy, brutal and cruel?

But, back to Pakistan - so, we have problems!

So, the market has had the rug pulled from under it and that makes IT no longer a valid source of employment and national achievement? Steady on! the surface has yet to scratched as far as the potential that IT holds, not just in America or Europe. IT is a very long term proposition, the boom-bust mentality is for gamblers on the market, It will continue to be integral for a very, very long time and it`s application and markets will afford more players than Indians.

``We have to catch up to the Indians`` - You know I don`t think that`s the way IT works - There is only expertise and experience and innovation-

Bio-tech - A new market driven race. Given this field of research and technolgy hold great potential - I believe in Pakistan such technology has been used only in agriculture - and the pharmaceutical application of this research and technology is remains by and large undiscovered in Pakistan. Besides US, is there another country that has completed a human mapping project? And Genetically modified food has not really found acceptance as yet?

The problems of Pakistan - This notion has occured to a good number of Pakistanis and they are rightly and greatly concerned. I believe the present regime is dealing with a number of problems, but as it is a military government, it must tread gently, cautiously - because the goal is to restore civilian, representative government - had this regime come to power or assumed power with a long term agenda, with the exclusion of civilian representation as a pillar, I believe it would have dealt with some of the problems in a more forceful manner. The problems we face were not created overnight and it will take time to build it back up. I am extremely upbeat on the prospects of the economy picking up, the political process being more civilized, diffuse and the rejection of obscuritanism.

Within the next five to seven years you will also see Pakistan as a net exporter of crude and refined hydorcarbons and this can have a real impact on our balance of payments and the confidence of lenders. Our problem is not debt, our problem is the lack of growth in the official ecoonomy and the inablity of the state to levy and collect taxes. You cab borrow as much money as you want as long as you are in a position to be able to pay it back. Other countries are even more heavily debt ridden than Pakistan, but you do not see people running arouind saying the sky will fall - steady on!

Many Pakistanis have yet to realize that a change of a fundamental nature has taken place in Pakistan - The Pakistan of before oct 99 will not exist again. The economic restructuring and the consequent restructuring of the State (and the restructuring of the ideology of Pakistan) and the restructured processes of political competition is now a given, for the next ten to twelve years at least; some believe, it`s utility may last longer - but the more the money the politican can control, the greater the calls one hears for the politician`s greater control over the resources. Perhaps we will be blessed by having Legislators who know how to read, and write a bill in the Majlis.

In my opinion, the single biggest problem in Pakistan is and will continue to be for the next ten years - the lack of proper funding for universal education and human resource development. In Germany they have program where, I believe, in the 8th or 9th grade, students are channeled into technical training in poly-techs or higher academic training. I think the same should be considered in Pakistan. Everybody is not going to want to write code or do research or want to become a government servant or have apptitude for these and machinist and technicians are also important, and this too requires a sophisticated training and can be especially as a way for youth to enter the mainstream of economy.

Will the problems of the peasants and the feudal landlords be resolved by fiat - No! The resolution of this problem is not amenable to fiat. The process of industrialization and the migration of large numbers of rural populace to urban centers will continue - but within the next ten to fifteen years, the Pakistan for which you are so rightly concerned, will be a very different country - as far as economy and the relationship between the citizen and state organs of representation and service are concerned. And these very same restructuring will occur in every country in South Asia and beyond - So do I have crystal ball? No this just my read of the situation. Yes pakistan has problems but it is not innocent of solutions either. Pakistan is a pivotal state, not just Pakistanis but the entire world share an interest in it`s maturation and success. Don`t get so fixated on the problems that you cannot see anything else. Balance and composure, not a loss of nerve under a barrage of psyche war tripe, is the proper way to approach our problems, I think.

hobbyty 1018

This burqa thing in Captive Kashmir is a symbol of political protest againt Hindu government]

Burqa sign of protest against Hindu government?

1. Protest is something one does by oneself. Soemthing imposed by someone else on the basis of fear is pure bigotry.

2. Is a girl who begins to wear Burqua because she is scared to death of Jihadis throwing acid on her face protesting against the Indian governement for not letting her wear a burqa?

Does Pakistani Islam teach people to tell barefaced lies.

3. We see here Pakistan using the same Afghanistan techniques using the same people. There is an effort to Kabulize Srinagar by some forces. Everyone knows who these forces are. It is a shame that people who call themselves Muslims are doing this to other Muslims. What is more shameful is that there is support, not protest, for these barabaric acts from ``active faith`` keepers.

What kind of Islamic government would be which is propounded by such people? Is that the kind of governemnt Pakistani Muslims want for themselves?

Sarwari 954

Well said! But I wouldnt worry about what Indians think anyway.... Their entire argument rests around Jinnah not going to jail, and as we all know it is a childish argument... Jinnah was a strict constitutionalist and in 1946 when the British Govt. did contemplate his arrest, they ruled against it as it would give Muslims a reason to rise in open rebellion, since Jinnah was the uncrowned King.

In any event, prominent Muslim League Leaders like

Begum Shah Nawaz, Ispahani, and half of Muslim League`s working committee was in Jail in 1946 and 1947 for sedition and anti-British activities.

Alas these people will not learn... their arguments are flawed and their facts inaccurate.

Leave them to their fate.

-YLH

Zafar:

Kindly explain your assertion that Pakistan used a neo khilafat strategy to state and people, because I believe you had yourself stated on another board that Modernist and Reformist Muslims supported the creation of Pakistan, whereas traditionalists for the most part opposed it? Furthermore Pakistan you have to agree has never had a religious party in charge but always secularists, and pseudo secularists in charge with the exception of Zia. I can understand your desire to slander Pakistan, which I have come to understand on chowk is the binding factor of your nation, but please when we are having a discourse, I would expect a little more from a person as well educated as yourself. Please dont take offence to this, I mean none, perhaps its just a reflection of my frustration with people like Gowardhan who will never tire to lie about Pakistan .

I dont find Ataturk`s solution as final or binding, indeed I dont find the Western Model as the final solution either but I believe Democracy with safeguards is the only solution to any Modern Society.... but to the credit of Ataturk one has to accept that what he did was the necessity of the times, and it dictated that draconian laws and measured terror be implemented.

Finally, I wonder if we can still inspire a Law code from the ethical and moral standard set by Islam as a civic religion, after all much of the laws of the West were indeed inspired by a sense of Morality intuned with Christianity .....

I agree with the rest of your post.

Gowardhan,

I have only put forth facts. You on the other hand

have played on sweeping generalizations based on oversimplification of History. I have not denied the violence by Muslims in Calcutta but I have asked what is a very valid question and to which no Indian has yet given me a satisfactory answer:

1 Why did Muslims start violence in the Hindu Majority city, while all the Muslim Majority Areas

remained silent?

2) Why is it that no objective Historian even those like Lapierre who are intolerant to the demand of Pakistan have not pointed a finger at Jinnah and his AIML making a scapegoat of Suhrawardy instead?

3) Why is it the sum of Muslims killed in Calcutta is twice as high as the sum of Hindus killed? Is it because the Bengali Hindus have a greater martial spirit than Bengali Muslims because there certainly werent more Muslims to Kill? Or is it because Hindus were well prepared and organized to turn what was to be a riot into mayhem and then blame it on the Muslim League?

4) Why is it that the Pro Congress Newspapers from Bombay actually hailed Jinnah as a `freedom fighter again` and congratulated him for finally leaving his `Constitutional ways and means` to work against imperialism for the Direct Action Day?

The truth Gowardhan is that you cant fight on facts and logic.... Brainwashing has its limits, but in people like you one wonders if India has crossed all those limits. If you are as know all as you claim to be answer the questions I have asked as well as those of 793 and 795.

Layman

Original YLH Definition

Brahminist: A Hindu Communal element from India who wishes to perpetuate `Ram Rajya` ensuring the existence of Caste system as in Gandhi`s word `Military Organization of Humanity` (Hind Swaraj, Young India), and cloaks it in the name of `Secularism` and `Democracy` thereby misusing the Principle of Majority/Minority, in consequence leading to assimilation of other homogenous elements grouping together on the basis of common beliefs, race, heritage, or caste. Famous example of an extreme case : Veersavarkar. Famous example of a Mild case: Mohandas Gandhi.

Hope that helps.

Hobbyty,

What is the link/url?

-YLH

Hobbyty Reply #1006

Thanks for the article. Nice to know you get your information from deperately inaccurate and biased report.

Some examples

``This grisly event was by no means an unusual event in rural India.``

I haven`t heard of many other, have you.

``India is just as frantically trying to prevent its caste system, which is often called `hidden apartheid,` from being put onto the conference`s agenda.``

India has outlawed the caste system. ``Hidden apartheid`` produced a dalit president. I wonder when open apartheid will produce a Hindu or a Christian president.

``India, according to many human rights groups, continues to practice and condone the world`s largest, most pernicious system of institutionalized racism and discrimination, the caste system.``

Refer to above response.

``Shockingly, this writer learned a decade ago that anthropologists had actually discovered a caste that was lower than untouchables. They were a small number of outcasts whose status was so degraded that they were not permitted to appear in daylight. They lived in garbage dumps and emerged only at night to scavenge.``

You have go to be kidding me, Hollywood writing.

``A Dalit`s `unclean` shadow must never fall upon that of a Brahmin, lest he be defiled.``

No response to this required.

``Fair-skinned Brahmins, 3.5 per cent of the population, are India`s ruling elite, holding 78 per cent of judicial positions and half parliament`s seats.``

I want to see evidence of this.

``In recent tests, Indian scientists discovered that high-caste Hindus, particularly Brahmins, are genetically closer to Europeans than they are to dark-skinned Dravidian Indians.``

And this too.

``Caste became a rigid system whereby India`s fair-skinned ruling class kept lower and swarthier orders in their places - as laborers, landless peasants, and servants - exploiting them in the name of religion.``

Let me explain that historically caste barrier have very permiable. People adopted castes in accordance to work the preformed.

``The Sikh religion and Islam both reject the Hindu caste system.``

Caste system is present in Sikhs, and Jats are rabid observers.

Tens of millions of low caste Indians found refuge from racial oppression as Sikhs, Muslims, and, more recently, Christians.

Only true of Muslims and Christians. And still Pakis believe that India (Brahmin ruled country) want to conquer Pakistan (the country of untouchable, since Islam has been untouchable’s refugee) and bring more untouchables into the population.

``All three religions have been and remain subject to varying forms of persecution by India`s Hindu majority, which is becoming increasingly intolerant of other religions.``

Not sikhs, and I can assure you that.

``Dalits are forced to clean public toilets and remove human faeces, usually with their hands. They sweep up after Indians defecate in the streets and move dead animals.``

Forced, wow. Can`t believe you take this author seriously. Forced to.....you have got to be kidding me.

``According to an extensive report on caste by the respected Human Rights Watch, large numbers of dalit women are routinely raped and forced to become sex slaves for Hindu priests and land owners.``

Doesn`t the Dalit shadow fall over priest during sex and defile them for life. Let me figure the out a moment please.

``Of India`s estimated 40 million indentured labourers - a modern form of slavery - most are Dalit children, often sold into lifelong servitude by starving parents.``

And not in Pakistan. Symptom of poverty and not apparent bigotry.

``Dalits, like Muslim Kashmiris, are frequently subjected to beatings, rape, torture and arson by India`s brutal police, says Human Rights Watch.``

Reveals the authors bias. Police is brutal to every one, especially poor.

``The recent case of India`s famed `Bandit Queen,` a Dalit woman who killed a score of higher caste men who had raped her.``

Member of Parliament if you remember. This in to to devalue by suffering but the system was not entirely against her.

``The caste system has also found its way into Nepal, which just officially banned it this summer; to Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and to the Indian communities in Canada, the US, the West Indies, Fiji, South-east Asia, and South Africa.``

Nepal is a Hindu country and I would imagine the caste system entered the country with Hinduism 1000`s of years ago and not recently like your idiot author suggests. And for the rest the statement, yeah...it probably went there with the community and not as the your idiot author yet again suggests.

``Even Indian Jews developed a caste system of their own under pressure from India`s customs.``

This is idiotic, no comment.

``Macwan calls the plight of India`s untouchables one of the world`s gravest and largest violations of human rights.``

I personally would not call it gravest and largest, though deplorable.

saminshah #965
PS: You may(or maynot) find something useful at www.rawa.org. Re Iranian women organising, sorry I hadn`t heard of that.

Bijli/Studebaker/Sadhna/etc #1009
????Unbelievable ! Debating is one thing, funding and organizing is another.

Reply Bharathiya Mussalman, Hobbyty #994

Dear BM Swami

Thank you for your kind thoughts. I know you will join me in congratulating Hobbyty on the 1000th post.

Best wishes Hobbyty! Keep them coming. I admit I have not been closely following your theological debate with Mr Hamidm, but am sure that you are both enjoying the exchange of views. Inshallah I will finish Soroush soon and get your take on him. (So far seems fairly abstract in his focus...was this stuff originally written in turkish or farsi?)

Zafar