A Pakistani School’s Visit to India

Zafar

Where are you? Have you been following? Have I presented the material in an understandable way?

Have I understood the material, in your opinion?

Are you finished with any of the articles?

What are your opinions, your criticism?

Give me some input.

Hamidm

``i guess if i had the time i could take apart hobbyty`s sophistry sentence by sentence,...``

COPOUT! I`m too busy! but it is futile! Oh, but I do have time to add another 4 or 5 paragraphs, after asserting that I`m too busy and that it would be futile? Hmmm? - And then again, there`s that burden of trying to understand the line of reasoning in the series of posts, and then, I`d have follow the development of each of the concepts...and then understand how they are framed, and then...Uugghhh!@

Oh! I know: - I`ll trash hobbyty - he too uppity.

waking me up from my stupor - making me uncomfortable, asking me to think outside the narrow range I had become comfortable with with - it took so long to get to this confort level -

Then I`ll trash all this talk of laying a theoretical foundation for the transition from traditional to modern, within an Islamic melieu, then I`ll tell everybody that it`s just sophistry, religion is fear (No! my encounter with religion was not one based on fear. No! What`s all this BS about love, trust, humility, surrender, doubt, types of religiousity? setting up a theoretical foundation for moving from traditional to modern)Who dtaht?

Yeah, that the ticket, yeah. I don`t have to understand it, I don`t have to affirm that it may be valid for some.

Hamid, I am dissapointed to note that you defficient in the basics. You could tear apart the line of reasoning presented in the posts, ``line by line`` - interesting - well, well, genius at work, do not disturb! No need to read all the posts, No need to understand, no need to seek clarification, no need to pose questions - but you can tear it apart? Well, I guess you get the dime then. Clever, boy.

I invite you to reread, the posts. I invite you to understand What, I invite you to understand Why, I invite you to understand How. You do not have to buy into any of this, you do not have to be convinced, it is better that you not be convinced - but you do first, have to understand the material - then by all means, tear it apart, it will be a service to my understanding of the material as well.

You see hamid, the fact that you are interested, is all that matters - that you are disposed to the material is all that matters. I want you to tear it up and I hope you will do a good job - because it will mean that you will first have to understand what, why and how, of the line of reasoning. Are you up to it?

Indian M.P.s will be given the following raise ,HOW DOES IT COMPARE WITH PAKISTANIS M.P. ???

What have they got?

Following the recommendations of a Joint Parliamentary Committee on Salaries and Allowances headed by K P Singh Deo the MPs` salaries have been trebled from Rs 4000 to Rs 12,000. As for the perks - they have become even more mind-boggling.

For starters there is the sprawling bungalow or flats at the best addresses in New Delhi (those with bungalows are charged a nominal Rs 2000 a month and the ones with flats even less), near free electricity (50,000 units per MP), free water consumption, unlimited free railway travel (first class with companion), almost unlimited air travel (they can travel anywhere in the country with a spouse or companion 32 times and another eight times from their constituency to Delhi), three free telephones (one in the constituency, one in Delhi and a third for the internet connection) plus 100,000 free calls a year on any other. They have now come up with a new gimmick. The unutilised free phone calls are now being transferred to their cell phones.

Apart from these, MPs are given Rs 6,000 a month as a secretarial salary, Rs 3,500 per month for stationery and franking allowance and Rs 400 per day for attending Parliament. They are also given up to 80 vouchers for the antiquated practice of bagging out-of-turn gas connections per quarter. It that were not enough, each MP gets Rs 20 million each from the Members of Parliament Local Area Development (MPLAD) fund - for being spent on pet local project in their constituencies. This continues even though the Comptroller and Auditor General`s office has alleged that norms have been violated in its usage in several cases.

Further, immediately after an MP completes a term in his office, he is entitled to a pension.

This raise to 790 super-privileged persons is resented by most of India`s billion-strong population

This item came in the News edition of today. Are these Afghans not as Islamic as the Kashmiris? Are Kashmiris the Chosen people?

I have never said that the Kashmiris are not mistreated in India. I am NOT saying that we are morally superior to anyone, but even a cursory reading of newspapers will show the Muslims of ``Hindu`` India (as a lot of Pakistanis like to us) treat the Kashmiri Muslims no worse than a lot of Muslim countries treating their own Muslim subjects.

JALOZAI: The Afghan Commissionerate handed over 147 newly arrived refugees of some 28 different families from Jalozai camp to the Taliban officials at Torkham border after transporting them in five trucks of the National Logistics Cell. On Tuesday the official of Afghan commissionerate on the pretext of shifting from Jalozai to the much better Shamshatoo camp trucked the 28 newly refugees families in the NLC vehicles.

However, instead of shifting them to the Shamshatoo camp the convoy was directly transported to the Pak-Afghan border at Torkham and handed over to the Taliban border officials at about 6 pm. All the 147 refugees belong to Northern Afghanistan province of Jozejan.

The innocent families when told to be shifted to Shamshatoo camp happily collected their rag-tag belonging and rushed towards the security office. Some of the elderly refugees succumbed to the load and heat and fell unconscious and admitted to the nearest Al-Jehad hospital. When they regained consciousness and came to know of their actual destination, they started weeping. Muhammad Yousuf whose wife and three children also included in the 174 refugees transported forcefully, told The News that he came here along with family only three months back. When the UNHCR was contacted the official said the commission would formally complain to the government of Pakistan as it only came to know the following day (Wednesday).

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971

The earth shakes in fear. Hobbyty begins to dance in happiness seeing his `active faith` in action.

HA HA HA HA HA HA

What a bunch of losers.

Zafar ul Talib:#962

While I was applauding India`s stance on the issue of caste recently(``It is India`s internal problem``) you seem to imply that that was not correct.

The ONLY issue between India & Pakistan is Kashmir.Bringing in irrelevant matters roils the subject.

I just wanted to bring that point home and I do see a loosey-goosey response here....flippant & smart-aleck.

The back-handed compliments you so fondly lavish on yourself appear as self-flaggelations to others.

PS:Thanks for being the meter-reader of my intellect.Coming from someone like you I consider that as a compliment;).

WASSALAAM.

Shankar:#956

What about Bob?

__________________________________________________

wassalaam

I am a new chowkwala and this is my first message.

I have been reading and enjoying the crossfires

among fellow chowkwalas.

First I wish to congratulate the 16 year old

pakistani for writing such a splendid article.

I believe that in Islam, it is a crime to be

pessimistic. Even though Indians and Pakistanis

have failed to solve their problems for the past

54 years, I have faith in the current Prime

Minister of India and the current President of

Pakistan. I hope and pray for their success.

Secondly I have observed numerous spelling errors

in various messages. May be the moderators are

too busy to do anything about it. Something must

be done to alleviate this problem. After noting

the wrong spelling of some words, I am beginning

to doubt about the correctness of my own spelling.

Finally I wish to mention a few words about

alcohol and Islam. As a muslim, I understand that

Allah (s.w.t)did not make drinking alcohol haram in the

beginning. He asked muslims not to pray while

they are intoxicated. Muslims realized that since

they have been asked not to pray while drunk, they

gradually came to their senses. Later Allah(s.w.t), a

Great Diplomat made drinking alcoholic beverages

haram.

Here I am tempted to bring the issue of muslims

being permitted to have up to four wives on

condition that they must treat them equally.

This is another diplomacy of Allah (s.w.t).

Every one knows that it is impossible to treat

four wives equally. So this is another way of

saying that muslims should be contented with one

wife.

With best wishes and kind personal regards to

fellow chowkwalas,

Mehdavi

I am a new chowkwala and this is my first message.

I have been reading and enjoying the crossfires

among fellow chowkwalas.

First I wish to congratulate the 16 year old

pakistani for writing such a splendid article.

I believe that in Islam, it is a crime to be

pessimistic. Even though Indians and Pakistanis

have failed to solve their problems for the past

54 years, I have faith in the current Prime

Minister of India and the current President of

Pakistan. I hope and pray for their success.

Secondly I have observed numerous spelling errors

in various messages. May be the moderators are

too busy to do anything about it. Something must

be done to alleviate this problem. After noting

the wrong spelling of some words, I am beginning

to doubt about the correctness of my own spelling.

Finally I wish to mention a few words about

alcohol and Islam. As a muslim, I understand that

Allah (s.w.t)did not make drinking alcohol haram in the

beginning. He asked muslims not to pray while

they are intoxicated. Muslims realized that since

they have been asked not to pray while drunk, they

gradually came to their senses. Later Allah(s.w.t), a

Great Diplomat made drinking alcoholic beverages

haram.

Here I am tempted to bring the issue of muslims

being permitted to have up to four wives on

condition that they must treat them equally.

This is another diplomacy of Allah (s.w.t).

Every one knows that it is impossible to treat

four wives equally. So this is another way of

saying that muslims should be contented with one

wife.

With best wishes and kind personal regards to

fellow chowkwalas,

Mehdavi

Zafar

More seriously, I think India’s refusal to humiliate itself in front of other countries is a function of our extreme cultural arrogance –

I would not call it Indian arrogance. I would call it the arrogance of the God`s Chosen People in India - the members of our elite civil services. That arrogance extends itself internally as well as externally. The Brahminism that YLH talks about is not about caste but attitude, and its practitioners are the ``civil servants``. They are the new Brahmins, and it does not matter what caste they belong to.

Chowkwallahs,

Some of the posts on the recent board were great to read. Tipping my hat...

Gowardhan

re: #956

Unfortunately many women participate in the oppressive practices against their gender. The group cited that supports acid assaulters is a sad example.

I think you bring up a good question. My interpretation of your question (er, I hope it is correct): can people be coerced into faith? Imo faith is an intensely personal process that takes place between the individual and his/her beliefs. I don`t think anyone can be coerced into truly believing anything. Can people be forced to perform religious rituals or adhere to the dictums of the religious/nationalistic culture in which they live? Yes. As we know, it happens all the time.

Why does this Kashmiri woman`s group support acid assaulters? They may truly believe in their interpretation of Islam. Is it just for them to force it on other women? No. Unfortunately nationalism and religion has been used to rationalize and justify behavior that could in a rational humanistic world, be defined as criminal. I am reminded of the women in certain ethnic African groups who perform and accept the practice of genital mutilation ( sorry, it exists) and the females who have survived these practices. The practice bears all the hallmarks of patriarchy gone out of control. I would hazard that the women who uphold these misogynistic traditions suffer from a kind of Stockholm Syndrome. My mind boggles, as it does in these matters. As for the survivors, that the people who survive these kinds of assaults on their souls develop a faith (an act I would perceive as revolutionary) in a greater power is awesome. And they to me are closer to Good/God/ than those who bully the rest of us.

regards

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