Chowk, Jay, a Ditch and I

Reply Godot #: 455

Godot

“Like you, Zafar, destruction of a House of Worship is abhorring to me, irrelevant of whose House it is…In my post, which was read by some, especially the ignorant ones, the way they ``wanted`` to read it, I was not justifying the destruction of an Ahmadia Mosque in Pakistan by pointing out Babri Masjid. Like rape, there can be no justification for it. But that Jay pointing out Ahmadia Mosque smacks of hypocracy; it is akin to a pot calling the kettle black. That`s all.”

OK…but as an Indian, let me invite you to continue to point out things in India which need improvement. (Of course we will defend our “izzat”, doubtlessly disagree with your prognosis, question your analysis, dispute your view of any mechanisms which are in place to deal with it, etc. etc. etc. - but hopefully it will cause us to rethink our way of looking at things, or if not, help us consolidate our current thinking on the matter.)

I can’t speak for anybody else, but I’m looking forward to hearing from you.

Zafar

Godot #454

......correct....not only are they more ``religious`` then most other ppl, but as a community most of them are economically very well off.....like they used to own all of shezan bakeries (before selling it) and the only mercedes dealership in lahore is owned by ahmadis

Zafar al Talib #452 Thanks for the welcome back. Good to see all the fine folks of chowk are still around the three weeks or so that I was off duty from Chowk.

Godot #454 ``That even the ``liberal`` Pakistanis have shunned the Ahmadis in Pakistan is a sad commentary indeed.``

Excuse me, but I have to make you sadder. The problem goes deeper - in my recent visit to Pakistan, I met an Ahmadi gentleman in a well established position. On being told before the meeting that the gentleman was an Ahmadi (presumably so I do not say anything about Ahmadis that might offend or embarass him), I was pleased that we still have the heretic community of Ahmadis in well established positions. But then this Ahmadi gentleman ruined my day by asking if the author of the book I had with me (on a western journalists experiences in different middle easter countries) was Jewish since the book was not very flattering to the Arabs. I wanted to grab the man by his shirt, shake him a few times, and yell in his face ``Why should the person`s religion be relevant?? Why should you, an Ahmadi who has no doubt been on the receiving end of religious bigotry, jump on the writer`s religion??`` I of course just smiled and said ``I dont know what her religion is, nor do I care.``

So, my dear Godot, the bigotry disease is more widespread in Pakistan (and indeed across South Asia) than it seems.

Re hobbyty (#1636):

Here are some of my thoughts on the deficiency of scientists and scholars in the Muslim world. I am an Ahmadi-Muslim (Qadianni for some), and will likely draw fire for my views, but I hope that the readers will read my post objectively and not overlook sincerity on my part.

Quran, and the life of Prophet of Islam (pbuh) form the core of Muslim thought process. These teachings are ingrained in our minds from childhood and shape our perception of human behavior, community living, spiritual growth, science, and more.

On the issue of science and logical reasoning, one of the main, subtle problems the Muslims face is the conflict between their Quranic interpretation and the scientific understanding of the world. Mainstream interpretations of the Quran and hadith are in clear violation of the commonly understood physical laws. A few such cases are Moses parting the Red Sea, Adam and Eve living in paradise as the first humans and their fall from grace, Jesus physically ascending to the sky where he resides till today in flesh and blood, long-awaited descent of Jesus from the sky at the time of the one-eyed monster (dajjal). To a large extent these conflicts have resulted in a “madrissah” culture, where people are made to blindly believe in Quran and hadith and not question their understanding of the scripture. Slight hints of questioning these issues are likely to incur a person disapproval of his peers, and in some cases, varying degrees of penalty from the authority.



The question now is that how should an inquiring Muslim reconcile the conflicts in religion and science, while continuously acquiring a deeper appreciation of the scientific principles? This is a tall order, and no wonder remains largely unfilled. Sooner or later these conflicts intercept one’s intellectual progress and reduce it to a slow crawl. Faith devoid of reasoning turns religion into a fairy-tale. These fairy-tale ideas corrupt one’s perception at a very fundamental level, and end up producing not the innovative thinkers and scholars, but average minds and loads of mediocrity.

I hope my remarks about what ails the Islamic thinking do not offend anyone. Thoughtful comments from anyone will be much appreciated.

Asad Sattar

Reply Temporal #1671

T-ji

``PS: ...and aren’t you glad I avoided the issue of your propagating ‘un-balanced’ views and that of your apparent fiscal association with RAW!;)``

Actually, perhaps you can help? RAW seems to have mislaid my address, and for some reason their checks are no longer coming. I have made several complaints, but Accounts always says that paperwork needs to be done by Propaganda, while Propaganda keeps saying that the paperwork has been done and Accounts is just being lazy and inefficient about processing it. I am deeply disappointed by their attitude - could you have a word with them on my behalf?

If you think it would help, please also mention that ISI has no such problems, and my paycheck from them for jasoosi and related activities arrives on time (though lately it has started to bounce, but kya karen, nobody is perfect, no? Anyway, RAW doesn`t need to know that bit.)

Best wishes

Zafar

PS Actually, in all seriousness (and no dots, mind you) there probably ARE characters from these two esteemed and highly professional services who review what`s going down on this site. Mashallah, I wish them every enjoyment...I can also imagine the scene when the hapless jasoos hands in an analysis of an interaction involving posters who shall remain nameless:

``OK boss, here is the analysis, may I have seven weeks leave for my sister`s daughter`s husband`s cousin`s ninth daughter`s wedding please?``

``Analysis dikhao.`` Pregnant silence. Jasoos starts sweating with nervousness.

``What do you think boss?``

``Yeh sab bakwaas hai! Leave denied!``

``But boss, yeh sab tho bakwaas hi likhthe hain...``

``Namumkin. Yeh sab random commas, fullstops, capitalisations...yeh sab tho code hi hoga. Ise crack karne ke pahle thumhen leave nahin milega. Samajhe?``

``But boss...iss ka mathlab tho likhne vale ko bhi nahin malum...``

``Impossible! Kuchh na kuchh tho meaning nikaal payenge.``

Seven weeks pass. Jasoos finally drags his broken body and mind into the boss`s office:

``Boss, boss! Breakthrough....``

(To be continued, but not by me. Please note, I am not bloody-minded about the use of dots. Buddha ne hamen kya bathaya middle way ke bare men? That`s right! Never do a U turn accross double lines!)

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re urstruly 1652

You have successfully dodged every actual question put to you by YLH. I am impressed. You `spoke` a lot and said nothing. Gotta give credit to you. It is this stuff that Islamist victories at polls are made of be it in Algeria or Turkey or Jordan. Talk the democratic talk, avoid answering real questions about rights of minorities and pluralism, and voila, you get in. And then, make sure that nobody else can ever use the ballot to come to power. Right on dude!

Hobby: We have to go through things over and over again because we havent gone through them correctly the first time (Translation: either someone aint typing right, or someone aint reading right...)

I have made it explicitly CLEAR that the baseball bat IS NOT my first reaction. You simply believe that because it is yours, it must be mine. I have made it clear that im familiar with the religious answer and that I take into consider the Pakistani judicial system (Which is largely a joke. I would not advocate the same punishment had the crime occured in America, as they have a half decent, if racist, system).

There is a REASON, (which you have shown no interest in knowing) why I think they should recieve bodily harm. I feel the need to remind you that most peope who do these crimes arent caught in Pakistan.

Secondly, your analysis of mine and asifs conversation is both wrong and irrelevent. When did I say everyone should have the same reaction as I do??? As ive already stated, Ive taken enough days reflecting and meditating on what has become my belief system. If you dont understand it then ASK. I have no time for insinuations and assumptions.

As for my BAD LANGUAGE (...the boogie monster of the 21st century...), Islam is SUBMISSION, Hinduism is Anti-ATTATCHMENT. I submit to the fact that there will always be people who disagree with me and I dont attact myself to converting them to my ideology. Moreover I REJECT this PHONY social convention that I should cover up what I FEEL. Thus I am not attatched to idiocy, and Ill make no bones about telling idiots their stupid.

``I am convinced that such behavior can only be corrected by education.``

Can You NAME me ONE Educated society which eradicated barbarism? I will ask you again what should happen to the caught acid thrower? I will also saw that your theory relies heavily on wishful thinking, as if simply education will end curruption, barbarism and whatever else plagues S. Asia.

``neither of these instances, did Jihadis initiate hostilities; rather they responded to hostilities.``

Please save the rhetoric, Ive studied JIHAD (what they are allowed/unallowed to do)...

``First of all being a Jihadi is not a crime. My only option is to persuade them with the force of reason, of their acceptance and their role in society, and strength of public opinion. Rejection never takes place within acceptance.``

My God, I suppose this is your remedy for dealing with serial killers, pedophiles and wife beaters. The force of reason, lol. Did your reason convince asif that the blasphemy law is not divine? these people dont listen to reason, they listen to religion (and the two are mutually exclusive)...

Oh and what exactly does ``brought to justice mean?`` Be concrete and concise, what should happen to an acid thrower? Should he be forced to sit in the library all day reasing ghazali?

(I had a good mendela quote to end this post with but lost it...)

Re:Reply #: 1665

AAmir,

You put it very succinctly. Both Gandhi and Jinnah belong to a period when honesty and integrity were much valued. Such people are rare in this day and age. From Jinnah we can learn that, with indomitable spirit, one can cross all hurdles. From Gandhi, one may learn how potent a force non-violence and civil disobedience are. If we can usher in non-violence in Kashmir valley (i know i am on shaky grounds here)and put into effect the indomitable spirit of jinnah to constructive use in South Asia, we will be assured of a great future.

Sridhar

YLH

Dear, we know very well that we lost the war of 1962 against China. If you compare the number of soldiers that died in the war(check Bharatrakshak), you will find that Chinese losses were higher. But we dont delude ourselves by such stats. The fatc is that our purpose behind waging war was to get back Aksai Chin and we didn`t. Hence we lost. Plain and simple. It doesn`t matter who lost more in ``battles``. What matters is who won the war. Undoubtedly China.

I feel pathetic when I see Pakis trying to negate the fact that you guys lost the wars against India repeatedly. Not that it is all your fault. Go and read your Paki authors or Pak govt paid agents(Yeager!) and they will assure you that you won! But the facts scream in your face. Have you guys suceeded in occupying a SINGLE INCH of Indian land as a result of any war. HAS INDIA DID ANY DAMAGE TO YOUR COUNTRY. YES, IT TORN YOUR PUNY COUNTRY APART IN 1971. And made your Tiger salute our General after humiliating your tigers in war. Afterall does any person in his sane mind ever doubt the sure defeat of a tiny Pak against gigantic India

ylh,

{{It is imperative for all genuine Pakistani Patriots to keep harping back to the 11th August speech of Jinnah}}}

Yeah yeah yeah..keep saying those words enough times & maybe by some cosmic miracle they will come true. So far, they never have in Pakistan. Maybe the justices of Pakistan`s Supreme Court should repeat them. Jinnah turns in his grave ever time those justices show their `justice`. Ever notice how Cowasjee protects his butt every time he speaks out against the Supreme Court? He`d better or they`ll send out a warrant for contempt. If Jinnah was alive today even he would be charged with blasphemy.

layman ( and hobbyty)

.... i am sorry about that ... in this case i was trying to be facetious .........in fact, i agree with your position that, in most cases, morality is quite personal and the standards do change over time ..... hence, the laws that govern morality should also change...

...... what i was trying to point out, in my own silly way, is that islam does not allow for any kind of change and therfore all this talk about ijthehad is self-serving and designed to mislead us ..... let us take an example that hobbyty brought up : based on precedence girls can be married off at the age to nine or twelve or some other such silly age - there is no way that an ``islamic`` government can pass a law that sets the minimum age at seventeeen or whatever ..... to do so would be to suggest that the prophet`s moral standards were somehow imperfect ..... take another example: islamic morality decrees that poking fun at the prophet and his merry men is blasphemous, and islamic law prescribes that the blasphemer be deprived of his head ...... the moral value is fixed as is the law ...... can the law accomodate silly concepts like ``freedom of speech`` ? .....fat chance ! ......... contrary to what the apologists would have us think, the taliban are the true face of morality and law in islam - everything else is kaka ( which is a big word ) .........................................................................................................

...these extra dots were for zafar ..... actually zafar mian, there is a science behind the dots - each dot represents a forty three micro-second pause in all mental activity, and five or more dots implies a total disconnect fom the subject of the preceeding sentence .......and so on .....and then i wonder why my wife and urstruly hate me ........

Layman

hamidm #1643:

``you fail to understand that morality and law are one and the same thing ... and since there is no question of morality changing with time and space, how can the laws change ?...... morality is pre-ordained and the laws that govern it cannot and must not be changed .......``

Hamidm, morality and law are two different things. Morality is individual - what is morally acceptable to one (eg eating meat, pork, beef etc) may be immoral to another, whereas the law is the same for everyone in the society. In most societies, laws do reflect the moral values of the dominant section of people - if it is a democracy, then it reflects the morals of the majority... but morals do change and so do laws with time. Eg: our moral views on slavery, child labour, gays etc has changed and with them, laws have changed too.``

``Hamidm, my problem with your posts is that I`` --may be satirically challenged?

Vicky

That was a great post. The reality as all of know is that Pakis have been fed on a heavy dose of fantasies. They gloat over their ``imagined victories`` when there were none. They revel in their victory in minor battles completely losing sight of the big game that they lose most of the times. There Generals are short sighted and the concept of strategy is alien to them as was evident in Kargil war. One can recruit thousands in Pak for a suicide squad but you will find hardly one in their country who can think intelligent and pragmatically. Their foolish leaders have plunged their country into an unwinable war with their neighbour(India) seven times large in population and GDP. At least their father Jinnah had the pragmatism to understand that a perpetual state of confrontation against the giant India will ultimately be suicidal for Pak and hence he advocated a sort of joint defense. Today Pak is in the unenviable condition for which it can blame only its foolish leaders. Whether in the name of Kashmir or Kargil, it continues to fight a suicidal war against its disproportionately powerful adversary, that will ultimately eat up the naiton of Pak itself.

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