Chowk, Jay, a Ditch and I

I don`t know why but I found this article very relevant today.

Also some little bit of . . .

Sorry Alia, your passionate and rational article became one of the cusalty of recent international terrorist events. The replies to your article broke all the records at chowk.com and surely heading for 2000 replies. Anyway what you said so beautifully still holds true and it is more urgent need of time than ever before given the current geo-political situation.

Best wishes and regards,

Sameer

Ylh

When I spoke about a fool, you did not have to answer.

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Gowardhan

As I am sure there are better Hindus than you too.

Re Aamir (#1758):

In my earlier posts I have tried to show that Hindus and Christians generally do not make nearly as much effort to integrate religion in their lives as the Muslims do. The problem is that Muslims of this day and age have generally misinterpreted Islam at a scientific, social, as well as a personal level. Some examples are belief that Issa-ibne-Marriam resides in the sky, his much anticipated descent at the time of the dajjal, Blasphemy Laws in Pakistan, persecution of Ahmadi-Muslims, and more. Such ideas are based upon misinterpretation of Quran, hadith, and more.

It is this thought process that has kept the general intellectual progress of the Muslims in check for centuries now. Making efforts to correctly understand Islam before blindly integrating it in their lives will serve the Muslims well. Now, this is a very simple point I am making, and should not be so difficult to grasp. Right …?

On the issue of persecution of Ahmadi-Muslims, you mentioned that you are sorry. I appreciate your honesty here. You are right that there are many different types of discriminations in operation … on basis of language, social status, race, and more. Hateful discrimination is an act of sin in the eyes of Allah and should be condemned by all. Whether it is Holocaust against Jews, or killings by a dictator, or massacre of Bosnians, or the recent “World Trade Center” event, or persecution of Ahmadi-Muslims, or Shias, or others, or any other hateful event. These events need to be acknowledged, their motives need to be understood, and steps should be taken by all to prevent such acts of hate and violence.

So let me ask you this: As an Ahmadi-Muslim I believe in Quran and sunnah and hadith and all the elements of faith. So why is it that I am declared a “kafir” by the Paksitani government, and why should I be imprisoned for merely saying assalam-o-alaikom to others, or saying bismillah, or giving aazan? Ahmadi-Muslims are often martyred in Paskistan and their mosques are destroyed by the “jehadi” types … but no action is taken to stop this behavior. There have been hundreds of such incidents in Pakistan, but they go unnoticed. Is this what Islam has become in the hearts of the Muslims of the world today?

I do not intend to use this board to start bashing ant-Ahmadi elements, but to illustrate that the Muslim ullema of this day have become corrupt and are no longer qualified as leaders. Muslims would do well by getting rid of these hate-mongers and turning towards true teachings of Islam. Then only Muslims can, and surely will, excel in all the fields that require skill, knowledge, and wisdom. Otherwise they will continue to exist as a group which is at best mediocre.

Separating religion from science is the same as separating Word of Allah from Creation of Allah. These two cannot be separated as they fully complement each other. Reflection and understanding of science only serves to strengthen my faith in Quran and its teachings. After all, Quran challenges the reader to ponder over the details of Allah’s creations and that one cannot find any incongruity in the universe. Separating the two is a bogus argument and runs counter to the message of Quran. It shows one’s “jihalat” and lack of faith in the message of Islam.

On the issue of dajjal, you may only believe in the principle of evil of the dajjal, but this issue does not end here. Ahadith have set the timing of the arrival of dajjal and Issa-ibne-Marriam at 14th century Hijri (

Reply Shammi #470

“…Kake Da Hotel`s appearance is a blot on the once-magnificent Connaught Place.”

Shammiji, this is true, but yeh tho Dilli ki kahani hai, na?

Zafar

Sattar

You are wasting time with a fool who thinks he is lucky to be born muslim and has no need to think. He doesnt realize he cant think.

You must be truer muslim than this fool without a mind and a foul worldview.

Re: Zafar

``The little stall in Connaught Place used to be a favourite before Karim came along``

Zafar, I can testify to the fact that Karim`s food is lajawaab awesome (http://www.karimhoteldelhi.com/index1.html). Also, is Karim`s (estd. 1913) not much older than Connaught Place (estd. 1920s)? Karim`s atmosphere and ambiance (its location in the narrow bylanes behind Jama Masjid) rekindles for me the glory of Old Delhi, whereas Kake Da Hotel`s appearance is a blot on the once-magnificent Connaught Place.

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Re Aamir (#1742):

You are missing the point. You are taking my comments personally and comparing yourself to Hindus. To clarify this, let’s say you have a sprained ankle. Despite this limping problem, with some effort you manage to outrun a normal person. This may be due to the fact that normally you run much faster than this person. This does not mean that a sprained ankle does not impede one’s running capabilities. It is obvious that people with sprained ankles will generally have difficulty in running and are likely to be outrun by those who do not have this problem. Although individual results may vary, but on the whole this principle will hold valid.

Similarly, without drawing individual comparisons, it is understandable that generally Muslims will have a more difficult time fully appreciating some of the scientific principles if they believe , for example, that Issa-ibne-Marriam still resides in the sky, even after two thousand years of his birth. Similarly, on the issue of crime and punishment, which involves one’s fundamental understanding of human rights and dignity, Blasphemy Laws in Pakistan are a clear sign of misinterpretation of Islam by overzealous mullahs. Persecution of Ahmadi-Muslims in Pakistan also underscores this problem. Also remember, that these are just a few of many examples. Mainstream interpretation of Islam is full of such absurd examples and beliefs, which Muslims of the world continue to integrate into these beliefs into their daily lives.

On a similar issue, you insist that one should not mix religion and science. I strongly disagree with this. Quran makes clear references to scientific principles that were discovered much later. These principles include planetary motion, water cycle, various biological and astronomical facts, and if understood correctly, only strengthen one’s faith in Quran. In Quran Allah challenges the reader to look at the details of this universe, and to look again, and again, and one will not find any incongruity in Allah’s creation. Correct understanding of Islam and science complement each other. On the other hand you think that Allah’s Word (Quran) and Allah’s creation (this universe) are not consistent and should be separated. This shows that you are unable to reconcile your faith with realities of life. This reflects poorly, not on Islam, but on your interpretation of Islam. Now recall the dark ages in Europe that I mentioned in my earlier post.

Moving onto the issue of the Dajjal … so you think that looking at people like Stalin, Hitler, it is conceivable that the most viscous villain, the dajjal, may evolve over time. Now, people like Stalin and Hitler are not unique to this era … such people have long existed … so how much longer will it be before this dajjal finally evolves?

It gets more interesting from here on. My understanding of the mainstream Muslims belief is that this dajjal, the one-eyed monster, will be riding a huge donkey … a few hundred feet in length … which will consume fire. This donkey will move in giant leaps … with one foot in the east and one in the west. When riding this donkey, the head of the dajjal will be above the clouds. Anyway, at this time, Issa-ibne-Marriam will descend on the shoulders of two angels, from the sky, where he has been residing in flesh and blood for more than two thousand years. Issa-ibne-Marriam and the Mahdi will kill the dajjal after a fierce battle. There is going to be bloodshed of non-believers. Then Issa-ibne-Marriam will kill the pigs, break the crosses and more. He will convert all the people to Islam, get married and settle down.

So Sahib, the question is that how and when will all this happen? You say Islam is rationality … so explain to me all this in a rational, reasonable way. You will soon realize that there is no rational explanation for all this. These are fairy-tales spun by “jahil” mullahs and are in clear violation of Quranic teachings. A rational mind cannot reconcile these beliefs with realities of life, and will forever remain puzzled over these inconsistencies. This remains a major dilemma faced by Muslims of the day …

Asad Sattar

Gowardhan

How old are you? 5 or 6?

Dibbi shah

Dibbi, dont get mad only because you have been outwitted. This dabba can make your dibbi`s day any day.

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#: 870

sadna

There is a Rafi song which goes this way, if anyone remember the rest.

Maine pi sharaab, tum ne kya piya?

Tum ne kya piya, aadmi ka khoon

Tum kaho tho such, ma`in kahoo`n tho jhoot

..(?)

Well apparently, one can drink khoon AND sharaab AND claim to be acting pious all at once, going by the incidents hamidm #862 has quoted.



SADNA :-)

May be you couldnt find better literature book than bollywood to shape your identity ,but we have many better ways to prepare ourselves to tackle trial & tribulations of life than drugged to numbness feel nothing, see nothing, think nothing nonsense !!!!!

Dost-mittar:

So George Bush should not have a name after St.George--the patron saint of Orange Order?

Are you suggesting that his name should be like that of a Cherokee or Cheyene?

And Krishna Hindus(as opposed to Shaviites)should have names like those of AAdivaasis?

Hizurrehmaan is a lot of crap--notwithstanding his name.He has proven that even with an Arabic name he is capable of being a commie or atheist or heathen.

I still admire your stance on many issues.

WASSALAAM.

I see Squardon Leader Hamdani is scrambling to defend the PAF

Dost Mittar

It made me sad to read your posts, both the one to me and to YLH and Others.

It seems you find it difficult to read anything that conflicts with the chauvanism of Hindutva. I also find it sad that you do not see the danger in this. It is a tranistory moment of false pride for which many others will pay a price for a longer time. You present it as ``Hindu good, Muslim bad``, bad most observer will see through that construct. The truth about Hindutva is the creation of a false racial majority (Aryans) by misinterpreting history. It`s second tenet is the claim that hinduism is synonomous with the historical record. That this record is used to support the concepts of Punyabhoomi and Pitribhoomi.

When you support the view of history of India that you do (one, linear history) You are actually supporting the Hindutva version.

Indians deserve respect, even if for something, they never were?

Such is the degree of chauvanism that Hindutva types seek to rewrite and reinterpret history - No longer are Indians, Dravidians, but Aryans. keep the caste system alive, what ever the costs.

Punyabhoomi, Pitribhoomi:

As for Pakistanis, Did these Arabic and Persian, names exist with British India? Over Punyabhoomi, over Pitribhoomi, Or did Pakistanis invent these names in 47? Yes, of course they were trying to get away from their ``Indianness``, they deny Punyabhoomi. Clearly it is time that Muslim Indians may seek evaluate their Arabic names, lest they want to be foreigners and aliens in the land of their birth. And as a Pakistani, I too, must evaluate my achute ancestory. But what is there to evaluate, Who else but achute could possibly want to be Muslims. And if they affirm their Muslimness, who esle but the achute would turn their back on the Punyabhoomi? Perhaps you may one day reconcile with yourself and perhaps one day you will not find the need to define yourself as a single racial group. One race, one history, one holy nation, Punyabhoomi, Pitribhoomi, one patrimony. Noble ambitions, certainly. But you say you are not a Hindutva supporter. It`s all Nehru`s fault.

Aamir 1742

Kindly write in urdu or farsi. I am sure there must be some sense in what you keep spitting.

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ylh #1724 ``Pakistan, and all Muslim countries should support the US...`` I understand Khatami in Iran has offered all help to the US. The line between good and evil was never so clear as today. God bless this great nation, the USA.

Re Aamir (#1707):

The impact of Islamic teachings, derived primarily from Quran and hadith, on a Muslim mind and thought process cannot be overstated. I am not against this impact of Quran and hadith. Rather, being a Muslim, I am all for it. However problem arises when Quran and hadith are misunderstood and yet applied with brute force in shaping one’s perspective in life.



European history in the dark ages is but one such example, when a misguided, overbearing clergy controlled people’s lives and thoughts. When Gallileo discovered planetary motion and proclaimed that earth orbits around the sun, the Church was not happy. Mr. Genius was imprisoned and threatened till he recanted his statements. Later when Europeans separated religion from science, they started to make scientific progress at a more rapid pace. This seems to explain why the contemporary scientific community tends to have an atheistic bend in their thinking.

On to the issue of Hindus “with fantasy of 12 arms, a monkey yielding tumbora, 1/2 rat & 1/2 elephant” who are well versed in “sub phyllum & species of origin& darwin” … here are my thoughts.

I think that Hindus in general have also separated religion from their daily lives. For example, they do not typically refer to Bhagvad Gita or Vedas, or the lives of Ram or Krishna to address contemporary issues of women’s rights. They tend to make judgments based upon their everyday understanding of life and move on. Compare this to the approach of a typical Muslim who frequently refers to Quranic verses and hadith to address such issues. Note that I am not taking a position regarding which one is a better approach here.



Muslims generally make a strong effort to integrate religion into their daily lives. This effort at such a massive scale is somewhat unique to Islam in this day and age. I am sure there are some Hindus who strongly refer to their scriptures on regular basis and try to integrate it into their daily lives. They may believe in multi-headed gods, while studying biology and chemistry. Conversely, there is a large number of Muslims who study physics and medicine, and still believe that Issa-ibne-Marriam (Jesus Christ) resides in sky even after two thousand years of his birth. Strong attempts by one to integrate such a belief system in daily life leads to conflicts in one’s mind at a very basic level and impede one’s intellectual progress.

In short, the problem is not with integrating religion into one’s life. Rather, the problem lies with misinterpreting religion while integrating it in one’s life. This seems to be a major dilemma for the contemporary Muslims.

Personally, being an Ahmadi-Muslim, I firmly believe in basing my life on the principles of Quran and teachings of the dear Prophet (pbuh). Although correct understanding of religion remains critical as this is done. Moses parting the Red Sea, instant creation of Adam and Eve and their lives in paradise, Issa-ibne-Marriam residing in the sky, the story about dajjal and more, as understood by mainstream Muslims, do not cut it. Similarly, on the issue of crime and punishment, Blasphemy Laws in Pakistan are a clear example of misinterpretation of Islam by overzealous and misguided clergy. With such beliefs occupying the minds of a large number of Muslims, it is no wonder that there are not many innovative thinkers and scholars produced by the Muslim community.

You state that Islam is rationality and that I (i.e. Sattar) have lost faith in Islam. While I agree that Islam is rational, I see nothing rational about these “added” beliefs that have corrupted the original Islamic teachings. You have a problem with Ahmadi-Muslims accepting the claims of prophethood by Mirza Sahib. Yet you readily accept the idea that Issa-ibne-Marriam has been residing in the sky for two thousand years, and will eventually descend to the earth on the shoulders of two angels, in the days of the one-eyed monster, dajjal. Go figure. Now, tell me, exactly how do you define rationality when you call these ideas rational!

I’ll ignore other absurd comments in your post, as they are largely irrelevant to the discussion.

In this post I have tried to sum up some of my basic observations and opinions. Corrections and thoughtful comments from anyone will be much appreciated.

Asad Sattar

Pankaj,

Can you kindly also examine the facts provided by me and ascertain if they also are reliable....

To say that IAF won the war in 1971 is as stupid as saying Pakistan won the 1971 war....

`Check the references produced by MastRam as well as Vicky Iyer. They are authentic and reliable foreign sources. Perhaps you will then realize that ``facts`` point in a direction different from what you believe.`

Then why dont facts of Bharat Rakshak and the Indian statisticians point in that direction ... would you like to examine that site once again eh?

THE SITE OF THE INDIAN STATISTICIAN WHICH PROVES BEYOND THE SHADOW OF A DOUBT THAT PAF HAS ALWAYS BEEN A BETTER MORE PROFESSIONAL AIRFORCE THAN IAF.

THIS SAME STATISTICIAN PROVIDES FIGURES FOR BHARAT RAKSHAK:

http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/aces.htm

There was nothing conclusive in what Vicklyer posted except his own assertions and observations ... which were false.

Cant you for once not accept the truth as all mature Indians have done so in the past... PAF flies better than IAF!

Gowardhan:

`Ylh never let facts come between him and stupidity. He wont start now.`

This coming from a person who thrives on sweeping statements, fallacies and bs.... Wonderful Gowardhan... if all Indians are like you I pity all of you.

I have always made a claim and backed it up by a credible source usually Indian or foreign... have you ever done the same ? NO!

You are the stupidest most idiotic bugger I have ever seen anywhere ....

Pakhan, and sada kay Hindu fanatic Gowardhan:

I have examined the evidence provided and nothing backs up the erroneous claim that `IAF won the 1971 war`.... Even Indian statistics come up with 1:2 ratio ... Now I have never heard of an Air Force winning and still having downed only one to every 2 of their air crafts... The fact ofcourse is that it is 3 of their aircrafts.....

But then objective analysis of facts was beyond Hindu Fanatics from India anyway.

Pankan 1733

Ylh never let facts come between him and stupidity. He wont start now.

Zafar

Oh , You mean Kakey Da Hotel? LOL Of course, I know Kake Da Hoel...I was quite perplexed by the Lahorian Dee Hatti name. I do know a Multani da Dhaba in Lajpat Nagar, but that`s a small place. Kake Da Hotel is great. Will be a pleasure to go..

Hamidm et all...

``Reality is just a crutch for people who can`t handle drugs.``

-Robin Williams

Ylh#1733

``No one is debating the quality of life in South Asia ... you made an erroneous claim about the Indian War record... I confronted you with facts, you said you had foreign articles supporting your erroneous claims and contentions.... then you failed to produce any.

``

Check the references produced by MastRam as well as Vicky Iyer. They are authentic and reliable foreign sources. Perhaps you will then realize that ``facts`` point in a direction different from what you believe.

Rsaxena,

No one is debating the quality of life in South Asia ... you made an erroneous claim about the Indian War record... I confronted you with facts, you said you had foreign articles supporting your erroneous claims and contentions.... then you failed to produce any.

Please correct me if I am wrong but the debate started with Sigalph congratulating me on Pakistan Defence Day, and making justified Pro-PAF comments.

Attention Chowkwallahs:

Kindly examine the following paragraph and please explain to me how this individual has tried to prove that PAF was defeated in 1971 by the Quote he put up ?

`I am sorry to state, but the PAF indeed lost 1971 very badly .infact in explaining this fact I am reminded of US secretary of state Dean Rusk who wrote after his 1963 trip to South Asia: ``Fear,

distrust and hatred of India means that we cannot rely on Pakistan to act rationally and in what we think would be its own interests.`` `

Let us see what Yeager had to say about the 1971 war... I am reposting it for the benefit of the delusioned fellow `Vicklyer`

`The Pakistanis whipped their [Indians`] a$$es in the sky, but it was the other way around in the ground war. The air war lasted two weeks and the Pakistanis scored a three-to-one kill ratio, knocking out 102 Russian-made Indian jets and losing thirty-four airplanes of their own. I`m certain about the figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and counted the wrecks below. I counted wrecks on Pakistani soil, documented them by serial number, identified the components such as engines, rocket pods, and new equipment on newer planes like the Soviet SU-7 fighter-bomber and the MiG-21 J, their latest supersonic fighter. `

So much for the great IAF victory of 1971!

Vicklyer Continued:

As for being brain dead, the attitude of Indian interactors on this board before and after the great tragedy is an adequate example of which nation is really brain dead, and believe me it is not Pakistan.

So you can believe your little fantasy story of India`s great democracy, and the victory of IAF in 1971 when they lost 4 planes to every one PAF plane... but facts will remain facts.

Now stop being stupid and drop this topic because unlike you, I will only fight on facts, a fight you obviously will lose.

Let us for reference keep up Yeager`s excerpts again so that it is abundantly clear to fools like

`Vicklyer` who dont know the ABCD about Pakistan, Air Force or anything .....

http://www.piads.com.pk/users/piads/yeager1.html

Maybe you will see in shame the 1:4 ratio of kills by your `victorious` Air Force.... like I said before ... if 1971 was a victory for IAF, then I shudder to think what `defeat` must have been like.

-YLH

PS: Vicklyer, Indians have shown in the past that they can talk big.... but facts dont usually match this claim ... care to check some figures by your Indian historian?

http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/aces.htm

an aside from the great tragedy :

Vicklyer, like all Indians you havent quoted any facts and figures... the Kill ratio for PAF vs IAF was 4: 1 as per the testimony of Yeager.... No Indian source has claimed a victory for IAF...

But people like you are misled individuals.... If 1971 was a victory in the air for IAF, I shudder to think what defeat would be like.

Hobby: My personal beliefs are insignificant, and largely irrelevent to the greater issues we`re discussing (especially in light of the happenings in america)...

If you must know, I am a practicing Jain. If you are unaware of them, know that i havent intentionally killed a fly in ten years and would never, ever, EVER consider killing an ant. Moreover, Ive spent too much time on spirituality to be conquered by my base desires (which you suggest)... I believe strictly in non violence, I dont go around hitting people with bats...

However, as Taoism says, we must be as flexible as water, able to take many forms, while maintaining our core propeties (liquid/gas...H2O) therefore I do not believe in thinking in terms of absolutes.

If I was made PM in Pakistan today, I would immediately call for the capital punishment of these acid throwers (and their ilk), even though I do not believe in capital punishment. I will not tolerate women being threatened, having to walk around for their whole lives disfigured, being killed and burnt etc. Then I would make an inquiry to why these animals behave in such a manner and move to try to change their views. If they refuse I would tell them that they risk capital punishment if they continue.

And I feel the need to reiterate: this is NOT my first instinct. Had I caught the perpetrator I would console him if he was scared, talk to him, tell him my opinion that the social custom prevelent in his time is wrong etc. Killing him would be the last thing on my mind, but for the betterment of my sisters, my queens, I wouldnt hesitate to slit his throat. Understand this dilineation.

Lastly, I do understand both your and asifs beliefs because I used to agree with you both. I used to petition for the murder of (the brilliant) mr rushdie and later thought that a simple platform of compassion could change the world.

To be brutally honest, its important to look at everything cyclically and in dualities. There are two types of people, extremists and moderates. When one group is in power, it becomes the ``moderate.`` History is simply and exhange of power between these two groups. The word REVOLUTION is important, stemming from the root to REVOLVE-History is a 180 degree turn from group to group...Do NOT waste time searching for an EDEN. Make life as decent as possible, cuz we ARE living in hell...

``The legel process`` This is amibiguity at its best. What should happen to acid throwers? This is the 3rd time this question is being asked to you, Im in no mood for dodgeball...

Salam.

Is RSaxena okay? Doesn`t he work on wall street.

samina #1719-20-23:

...I believer in capital punishment for heinous crimes...after full and due process of law...and at the same time I abhor any unnecessary waste of life...these attacks are sad...am always saddened by any loss of life...anywhere...whatever the cause...and no am no dithering nincompoop...understand fully the cruel unjust times we live in...but a loss of innocent life is a loss I abhor...be it in karachi, new york, palestine or kashmir...also regardless of whether the perpetrator is an individual, organization or state...

...in this instance two more relevant thoughts come to mind...

...security in US is lax...if one were to believe that at least four planes were hijacked...they talk about the two that hit the world towers, one that crashed in pentagon and the fourth that crashed near camp david, pa...what are the chances of more planes being hijacked?... and succeeding in their missions?...the perpetrators not only had to enter the premises of the airports...enter he planes...overpower the crew...at least two or three in the cockpit...and fly into their target...and the timings...the co-ordination...and one cannot just enter a cockpit and aim the plane at a building or target as if one is driving a car!...

...secondly, taking these plane attacks in conjunction with the Sep. 09 attack in israel by saker hubashi one of a million plus israeli arab...i think this has blown a huge gap and blown bush jr.’s star war strategy to smithereens...while appeasing friends (defence industries) and antagonizing foes (russians) and acting as a world bully and securing air space around us and its allies from terrorist attacks he forgot about a viable deterrent against attacks from within...

sadly,

t

PS: have also posted this on the breaking news site.

I dont believe this ... I dont... I am still in shock ... I saw the world trade center South Tower go down on TV ...

Pakistan, and all Muslim countries should support the US...

My God, Hobbyty, it is truly terrible. There are reports are people falling or jumping out of buildings...it is reported that NYC is experiencing unprecedented damage and casualties. The innocents in the hijacked plane, in the buildings and who will be bombed in retaliation.This city is being closed down. God help us.

Saminashah

Oh, my God - Unbelievable - absolutely unbelievable. The total number of fatalities is unknown, but it could be in the hundreds and thousands, even. I just saw a tape on news of the building collapsing.

Of course Muslims will be blamed for this and of course they will suffer - new thousands to the list of dead. Unbelieveable.

PM

Sorry if I came across as patronizing - perhaps we have become to used to the constant hostility towards all, here at Chowk - Allow me explain: In presenting this work, My hope was to initiate a discussion, instead, there is little discussion, much hostility - I had hoped we would explore the ideas - in the selfish hope that I may learn more, instead I am now like a defender, chief promoter of the ideas - and this was not what I started this for - And anyway, what you may find patronizing - well, I just happy somebody will take the time to explore this and discuss it and of course I`m thrilled that it takes place without being called bigot, hypocrite and such.

The Pentagon has been hit also; NYC under full terrorist alert; all subways, and tunnels have been closed, all airport runways have been closed across the nation,...

zabed #458 ``Yes, Ahmedis are pious and say 5 prayers regularly but trouble is they themselves conside them different from other muslims, e.g. sunni. ``

Interestingly, in the Quran the Jewish claims to being a Chosen People is condemned (the claim is condemned, not the people or the jewish or any other religion, I may add since the Quran refers approvingly to all religions and refers to itself as simply being the Arabic Quran as opposed to the Quran in other languages) and yet we Muslims turn around and act as if we are the Chosen People instead!! Seems like ignorance of Islam as revealed to the Holy Prophet is something Sunnis and Ahmedis and Shias all share with one another. And as the Quran says, a characteristic of non-believers is that they break up into sects while true believers live in harmony with one another and are not concerned with any differences in belief.

Two planes have crashed into The World Trade Center in New York. If this is the work of fundamentalists, we can thank them when the US retaliates and bombs civillian populations in the developing world...

Hamidm,

Carrying the discussion forward - there can be no absolute morals - as people`s idea of morality can change with time. The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.

However, every religion seems to have some absolute core tenets and if these do not stand the test of time, I think the religion will either have to evolve or die out. If a religion is rigid and also has too many do`s and dont`s, I suppose it faces greater risk that it is not followed.

The Hindu religion (if you can call it one religion) has few core tenets (or my knowledge is limited). Most rules are by caste/community... and they are being broken as they are not suitable for the modern age.

dear hobbyty:

You write: ``By the way, have you given any thought to the ``ought Vs ``is`` as sources of understanding morality?``

Actually, have been trying to crystallize my thoughts on the question in the time i can snatch between work and other responsibilities. (not everyone is as yourself and ylh to be living in a world of 48-hr days :)) Please expect a reply to your last (slightly patronizing) post in a couple of days.

By the way, ``Sad``? Why? I have never backed down from calling a spade a spade, though I like to think I give myself a fair chance to hear all sides of an issue first.

rgds,

PM

P.S. Am plowing through ``Quran, Muslim, Faith and Ijtehad and Understanding``. Makes interesting, if incredibly dense, reading.

YET ANOTHER REASON

For the ex-military men, kashmir is a low cost war, for the card carrying memeber of manesty, it is a humn rights issue, for the religious, it is a jihadic war, for the jinnaists it is continuation of TNT. This is a new one for the farmers of pakistan, it is a question of water and survival. from dawn of today

Kashmir and Pakistan`s survival

Some intellectuals have articulated the view that if the country has done without Kashmir during the last 54 years, what is the point of insisting that it is the core dispute in our relations with India?

If the intention behind the suggestion is to settle for the LOC as boundary, the question is can India be trusted as the upper riparian of the Jhelum and the Indus, given the experience of Bangladesh in the context of Farrukha Barrage? And what about the Wullar Barrage project which the Indians almost half constructed on the Jhelum river near Srinagar and which was demolished by the freedom-fighters in the early days of the current armed struggle.

Under the Indus Basin Treaty, India has the right to construct storage upto thousand acre-feet on the three rivers and their tributaries. In the garb of Tulbul navigational project, she started constructing a barrage with four doors, the first with a capacity to store 10,000, the second 50,000, the third 100,000 and the fourth 200,000.

Thus the storage of water in Mangla during monsoons could be prevented and Pakistan flooded whenever it suited India to do so. Given her track-record of resiling from solemn commitments made in the UN Security Council to allow a fair plebiscite in Kashmir and reaffirming this position seven years later in 1957 as also the failure to implement the agreement to hand over the Beri Buri enclave to the former East Pakistan, it is difficult to predict her behaviour, despite written agreements, at any future date. This is one big reason why all her small neighbours feel uneasy about her.

Reverting back to the relevance of Kashmir in the context of Pakistan`s survival, one should bear in mind that both Tarbela and Mangla are built on rivers which come from occupied Kashmir, and in their absence most of Pakistan would be a desert, plunged in darkness. All this underscores the imperative of settling the dispute in a reasonable way.

A.H. SUHARWARDY

Hi Yasser,

I am sorry to state, but the PAF indeed lost 1971 very badly . infact in explaining this fact I am reminded of US secretary of state Dean Rusk who wrote after his 1963 trip to South Asia: ``Fear, distrust and hatred of India means that we cannot rely on Pakistan to act rationally and in what we think would be its own interests.``

Hey listen you lost 1971, big time . IAF won 1971 big time . They did everything that was expected of them .

1965 was the only time, I can say without a doubt, that had Pakistan got it`s tactics right, it indeed could have pulled it off .

But after 1965, the disparity in power structure`s between India and the Pakistan has only grown . That is why you guys pulled of 1965 but could not do anything in Kargil in a strategic sense .

Today your country is exporting terrorism to half of the world, are being ruled by a nut-case .

I have seriously come to believe that India and Pakistan are indeed 2 totally diffrent nations . I could say India has more in common with Vietnam than Pakistan . Pakistan is in the super league consisting of Afganistan, Iran, Iraq ......

Basically the brain dead region`s of the world .

If people like you aspire to be a PM, I really pity you chaps.....

Gotta go and read Darwin, something went awfully wrong in the land of the pure .

@@VICKY_iyer}}

Dost Mittar

Dear Dost, Please read and comment on Sarwar post#1689.

I feel this is an important post for you to read. I would very much appreciate your comments.

Drumz:

What is your reason for wanting to do bodily harm to whomever?

Re wishful thinking:

It`s education not wishful thinking.

Serial killers, pedophiles, wife beaters?

You asked for an opinion about persons who rejected religious pluralism - and acid throwers - not all these killers, wife beaters and such.

Anyway - how would I deal with them? I`d let the legal process handle them.

AAmir

It is better you aim for greater and greater foolishness. Trying to sound reasonable only displays how pathetic you are.

Re: tahmed, #457 (also, zabed, #458)

You are right, tahmed. I`m sadder still for what you just told me. It is beyond me why anyone would judge the other based entirely on his religion. I know some extremely nice Jewish people. I always judge a person based on his decency and civility, not his religion or what he has to say (but, importantly, ``how`` he says it.) Besides, I hold fast to the philosophy that ``don`t treat someone the way you do not want to be treated as.`` Why Ahmadis would treat the others the way they themselves do not want to be treated as is a question only they can answer. You should have asked this question from that Ahmadi.

Re: Zafar, #455

``...but as an Indian, let me invite you to continue to point out things in India which need improvement.``

Zafar, if I had time, or that deep an interest in India, I would do that. But, as of now, I have neither. To me, India is just another country. Besides, I don`t hate India such that I point out every little thing that is wrong with its society or its religion. India`s problems should be sorted out by the Indians, and Pakistan`s should be left to the Pakistanis.

India to verify

NEW DELHI: India on Monday said it wasverifying reports of Afghanistan’s Ambassador to India, Massood Khalili along with Opp chief Ahmed Shah Masood being wounded when suicide bombers, posing as TV journalists, triggered an explosion in Takhar province. “We have seen the reports. We are verifying them,” an External Affairs Ministy spokesperson said in New Delhi. — PTI

//That is a clear indication that india is planning to support another station in afghanistan for the jihadists of pakistan to board their flight to heaven. To pack the one percent pak poulation ofjihadists through kashmir is becoming increasingly difficult.

Godot

``But that Jay pointing out Ahmadia Mosque smacks of hypocracy; it is akin to a pot calling the kettle black. That`s all.``

There you go again. The important point was that distruction of, of late several, ahmadia `temples` is a letter to the editor topic in the liberal dawn. In india, one mosque demolished a decade ago is a prime time topic, even now.

This is a qualitative diffrence, obliquely linked to the laws of pakistan, blasphemy laws. One word is enough to sent a kafir to prison, people know that, but is there a law for distruction of kafir temples. Like the k for kafir it is a wider social value enshrined in each law of the country.

A legal system that validates and approves honour killing, it has to implicitly approve sectarian killing, and that is why the karachi killings go unchecked. The entitre society, including the police and law wnforcement people believe that individual killing another is legal in the case of women, then why not men against men.

So back to the original topic, even though you dismiss the ahmadia temple demolition as a small event, the fact that it is considered normal as a letter to the editor at par with complainta about faulty phones and aircraft delays is indicative of a example of a distinctive value system.

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sigalph235 1702

Perfectly said.

People use long talk and big words as seductive devices. They appear to be saying things without saying anything at all. Worse things is, it is the hiding of snake oil in words that makes me mad.

People should be honest in what they want. If people buy your argument, fine. If they dont, dont use words to deceive them.

Said many times. Someone with guns is less dangerous than these people who pretend to sell reason and distribute fanaticism.

Reply Mr Hamidm #1697

“...these extra dots were for zafar .....”

Thank you Mr Hamidm. I am honoured.

“ actually zafar mian, there is a science behind the dots - each dot represents a forty three micro-second pause in all mental activity, and five or more dots implies a total disconnect fom the subject of the preceeding sentence .......“

Jee haan, jee haan, it is all starting to make some sort of (dotty) sense now. Er…what about the other marks of punctuation? (I suspect that the ampersand especially holds many such mysteries. Is this true?)

“.......and so on ....”.

Bilkul sahi!

“and then i wonder why my wife and urstruly hate me ........

Bhabhiji should simply insist that you stop communicating with her using only email. Or do breakfast conversations go something like:”Please pass the DOT DOT DOT toast, dear DOT DOT DOT DOT DOT Chairman Mao absolutely betrayed the Chinese People’s hopes and trust!”?

As for the other, well dottiness calls to dottiness, as light to light and dark to dark. I suggest that you write for that audience using all caps.

Zafar

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Sattar2

Was delighted to read yur post and wanted to express to you somehow, that the content of your opinion does not really have bearing on whether you are a Ahamdi or Qaidiani.

I would alos like to offer a comment on the Madrissah system. This is an excellent system. The system is not the problem, the content of circulum is not the problem, it the the content of the Islam that is being taught that is a problem. I am confident that we will overcome these narrow and unuseful view of Islamic knowledge. It will be slow - but everything wothwhile is slow and difficult. The important thing is make more and more people aware, to pull them out of their moral coma.

PM

Sad - but as long as it makes sense and is in keeping with the spirit of inquiry - what choice do we have?

By the way, have you given any thought to the ``ought Vs ``is`` as sources of understanding morality?

Reply Dost-Mittar #: 456

“ [Lahorian Di Hatti]

Are you, by any chance, referring to `Kake Da Hotel` famous for its meat. The little stall in Connaught Place used to be a favourite before Karim came along. It was also referred to in an old Merchant-Venice Film, Householder.”

That’s the one! I hope it’s still there - it’s been some time since I’ve been to it.

Zafar

Reply Godot #: 455

Godot

“Like you, Zafar, destruction of a House of Worship is abhorring to me, irrelevant of whose House it is…In my post, which was read by some, especially the ignorant ones, the way they ``wanted`` to read it, I was not justifying the destruction of an Ahmadia Mosque in Pakistan by pointing out Babri Masjid. Like rape, there can be no justification for it. But that Jay pointing out Ahmadia Mosque smacks of hypocracy; it is akin to a pot calling the kettle black. That`s all.”

OK…but as an Indian, let me invite you to continue to point out things in India which need improvement. (Of course we will defend our “izzat”, doubtlessly disagree with your prognosis, question your analysis, dispute your view of any mechanisms which are in place to deal with it, etc. etc. etc. - but hopefully it will cause us to rethink our way of looking at things, or if not, help us consolidate our current thinking on the matter.)

I can’t speak for anybody else, but I’m looking forward to hearing from you.

Zafar

Godot #454

......correct....not only are they more ``religious`` then most other ppl, but as a community most of them are economically very well off.....like they used to own all of shezan bakeries (before selling it) and the only mercedes dealership in lahore is owned by ahmadis

Zafar al Talib #452 Thanks for the welcome back. Good to see all the fine folks of chowk are still around the three weeks or so that I was off duty from Chowk.

Godot #454 ``That even the ``liberal`` Pakistanis have shunned the Ahmadis in Pakistan is a sad commentary indeed.``

Excuse me, but I have to make you sadder. The problem goes deeper - in my recent visit to Pakistan, I met an Ahmadi gentleman in a well established position. On being told before the meeting that the gentleman was an Ahmadi (presumably so I do not say anything about Ahmadis that might offend or embarass him), I was pleased that we still have the heretic community of Ahmadis in well established positions. But then this Ahmadi gentleman ruined my day by asking if the author of the book I had with me (on a western journalists experiences in different middle easter countries) was Jewish since the book was not very flattering to the Arabs. I wanted to grab the man by his shirt, shake him a few times, and yell in his face ``Why should the person`s religion be relevant?? Why should you, an Ahmadi who has no doubt been on the receiving end of religious bigotry, jump on the writer`s religion??`` I of course just smiled and said ``I dont know what her religion is, nor do I care.``

So, my dear Godot, the bigotry disease is more widespread in Pakistan (and indeed across South Asia) than it seems.

Re hobbyty (#1636):

Here are some of my thoughts on the deficiency of scientists and scholars in the Muslim world. I am an Ahmadi-Muslim (Qadianni for some), and will likely draw fire for my views, but I hope that the readers will read my post objectively and not overlook sincerity on my part.

Quran, and the life of Prophet of Islam (pbuh) form the core of Muslim thought process. These teachings are ingrained in our minds from childhood and shape our perception of human behavior, community living, spiritual growth, science, and more.

On the issue of science and logical reasoning, one of the main, subtle problems the Muslims face is the conflict between their Quranic interpretation and the scientific understanding of the world. Mainstream interpretations of the Quran and hadith are in clear violation of the commonly understood physical laws. A few such cases are Moses parting the Red Sea, Adam and Eve living in paradise as the first humans and their fall from grace, Jesus physically ascending to the sky where he resides till today in flesh and blood, long-awaited descent of Jesus from the sky at the time of the one-eyed monster (dajjal). To a large extent these conflicts have resulted in a “madrissah” culture, where people are made to blindly believe in Quran and hadith and not question their understanding of the scripture. Slight hints of questioning these issues are likely to incur a person disapproval of his peers, and in some cases, varying degrees of penalty from the authority.



The question now is that how should an inquiring Muslim reconcile the conflicts in religion and science, while continuously acquiring a deeper appreciation of the scientific principles? This is a tall order, and no wonder remains largely unfilled. Sooner or later these conflicts intercept one’s intellectual progress and reduce it to a slow crawl. Faith devoid of reasoning turns religion into a fairy-tale. These fairy-tale ideas corrupt one’s perception at a very fundamental level, and end up producing not the innovative thinkers and scholars, but average minds and loads of mediocrity.

I hope my remarks about what ails the Islamic thinking do not offend anyone. Thoughtful comments from anyone will be much appreciated.

Asad Sattar

Reply Temporal #1671

T-ji

``PS: ...and aren’t you glad I avoided the issue of your propagating ‘un-balanced’ views and that of your apparent fiscal association with RAW!;)``

Actually, perhaps you can help? RAW seems to have mislaid my address, and for some reason their checks are no longer coming. I have made several complaints, but Accounts always says that paperwork needs to be done by Propaganda, while Propaganda keeps saying that the paperwork has been done and Accounts is just being lazy and inefficient about processing it. I am deeply disappointed by their attitude - could you have a word with them on my behalf?

If you think it would help, please also mention that ISI has no such problems, and my paycheck from them for jasoosi and related activities arrives on time (though lately it has started to bounce, but kya karen, nobody is perfect, no? Anyway, RAW doesn`t need to know that bit.)

Best wishes

Zafar

PS Actually, in all seriousness (and no dots, mind you) there probably ARE characters from these two esteemed and highly professional services who review what`s going down on this site. Mashallah, I wish them every enjoyment...I can also imagine the scene when the hapless jasoos hands in an analysis of an interaction involving posters who shall remain nameless:

``OK boss, here is the analysis, may I have seven weeks leave for my sister`s daughter`s husband`s cousin`s ninth daughter`s wedding please?``

``Analysis dikhao.`` Pregnant silence. Jasoos starts sweating with nervousness.

``What do you think boss?``

``Yeh sab bakwaas hai! Leave denied!``

``But boss, yeh sab tho bakwaas hi likhthe hain...``

``Namumkin. Yeh sab random commas, fullstops, capitalisations...yeh sab tho code hi hoga. Ise crack karne ke pahle thumhen leave nahin milega. Samajhe?``

``But boss...iss ka mathlab tho likhne vale ko bhi nahin malum...``

``Impossible! Kuchh na kuchh tho meaning nikaal payenge.``

Seven weeks pass. Jasoos finally drags his broken body and mind into the boss`s office:

``Boss, boss! Breakthrough....``

(To be continued, but not by me. Please note, I am not bloody-minded about the use of dots. Buddha ne hamen kya bathaya middle way ke bare men? That`s right! Never do a U turn accross double lines!)

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re urstruly 1652

You have successfully dodged every actual question put to you by YLH. I am impressed. You `spoke` a lot and said nothing. Gotta give credit to you. It is this stuff that Islamist victories at polls are made of be it in Algeria or Turkey or Jordan. Talk the democratic talk, avoid answering real questions about rights of minorities and pluralism, and voila, you get in. And then, make sure that nobody else can ever use the ballot to come to power. Right on dude!

Hobby: We have to go through things over and over again because we havent gone through them correctly the first time (Translation: either someone aint typing right, or someone aint reading right...)

I have made it explicitly CLEAR that the baseball bat IS NOT my first reaction. You simply believe that because it is yours, it must be mine. I have made it clear that im familiar with the religious answer and that I take into consider the Pakistani judicial system (Which is largely a joke. I would not advocate the same punishment had the crime occured in America, as they have a half decent, if racist, system).

There is a REASON, (which you have shown no interest in knowing) why I think they should recieve bodily harm. I feel the need to remind you that most peope who do these crimes arent caught in Pakistan.

Secondly, your analysis of mine and asifs conversation is both wrong and irrelevent. When did I say everyone should have the same reaction as I do??? As ive already stated, Ive taken enough days reflecting and meditating on what has become my belief system. If you dont understand it then ASK. I have no time for insinuations and assumptions.

As for my BAD LANGUAGE (...the boogie monster of the 21st century...), Islam is SUBMISSION, Hinduism is Anti-ATTATCHMENT. I submit to the fact that there will always be people who disagree with me and I dont attact myself to converting them to my ideology. Moreover I REJECT this PHONY social convention that I should cover up what I FEEL. Thus I am not attatched to idiocy, and Ill make no bones about telling idiots their stupid.

``I am convinced that such behavior can only be corrected by education.``

Can You NAME me ONE Educated society which eradicated barbarism? I will ask you again what should happen to the caught acid thrower? I will also saw that your theory relies heavily on wishful thinking, as if simply education will end curruption, barbarism and whatever else plagues S. Asia.

``neither of these instances, did Jihadis initiate hostilities; rather they responded to hostilities.``

Please save the rhetoric, Ive studied JIHAD (what they are allowed/unallowed to do)...

``First of all being a Jihadi is not a crime. My only option is to persuade them with the force of reason, of their acceptance and their role in society, and strength of public opinion. Rejection never takes place within acceptance.``

My God, I suppose this is your remedy for dealing with serial killers, pedophiles and wife beaters. The force of reason, lol. Did your reason convince asif that the blasphemy law is not divine? these people dont listen to reason, they listen to religion (and the two are mutually exclusive)...

Oh and what exactly does ``brought to justice mean?`` Be concrete and concise, what should happen to an acid thrower? Should he be forced to sit in the library all day reasing ghazali?

(I had a good mendela quote to end this post with but lost it...)

Re:Reply #: 1665

AAmir,

You put it very succinctly. Both Gandhi and Jinnah belong to a period when honesty and integrity were much valued. Such people are rare in this day and age. From Jinnah we can learn that, with indomitable spirit, one can cross all hurdles. From Gandhi, one may learn how potent a force non-violence and civil disobedience are. If we can usher in non-violence in Kashmir valley (i know i am on shaky grounds here)and put into effect the indomitable spirit of jinnah to constructive use in South Asia, we will be assured of a great future.

Sridhar

YLH

Dear, we know very well that we lost the war of 1962 against China. If you compare the number of soldiers that died in the war(check Bharatrakshak), you will find that Chinese losses were higher. But we dont delude ourselves by such stats. The fatc is that our purpose behind waging war was to get back Aksai Chin and we didn`t. Hence we lost. Plain and simple. It doesn`t matter who lost more in ``battles``. What matters is who won the war. Undoubtedly China.

I feel pathetic when I see Pakis trying to negate the fact that you guys lost the wars against India repeatedly. Not that it is all your fault. Go and read your Paki authors or Pak govt paid agents(Yeager!) and they will assure you that you won! But the facts scream in your face. Have you guys suceeded in occupying a SINGLE INCH of Indian land as a result of any war. HAS INDIA DID ANY DAMAGE TO YOUR COUNTRY. YES, IT TORN YOUR PUNY COUNTRY APART IN 1971. And made your Tiger salute our General after humiliating your tigers in war. Afterall does any person in his sane mind ever doubt the sure defeat of a tiny Pak against gigantic India

ylh,

{{It is imperative for all genuine Pakistani Patriots to keep harping back to the 11th August speech of Jinnah}}}

Yeah yeah yeah..keep saying those words enough times & maybe by some cosmic miracle they will come true. So far, they never have in Pakistan. Maybe the justices of Pakistan`s Supreme Court should repeat them. Jinnah turns in his grave ever time those justices show their `justice`. Ever notice how Cowasjee protects his butt every time he speaks out against the Supreme Court? He`d better or they`ll send out a warrant for contempt. If Jinnah was alive today even he would be charged with blasphemy.

layman ( and hobbyty)

.... i am sorry about that ... in this case i was trying to be facetious .........in fact, i agree with your position that, in most cases, morality is quite personal and the standards do change over time ..... hence, the laws that govern morality should also change...

...... what i was trying to point out, in my own silly way, is that islam does not allow for any kind of change and therfore all this talk about ijthehad is self-serving and designed to mislead us ..... let us take an example that hobbyty brought up : based on precedence girls can be married off at the age to nine or twelve or some other such silly age - there is no way that an ``islamic`` government can pass a law that sets the minimum age at seventeeen or whatever ..... to do so would be to suggest that the prophet`s moral standards were somehow imperfect ..... take another example: islamic morality decrees that poking fun at the prophet and his merry men is blasphemous, and islamic law prescribes that the blasphemer be deprived of his head ...... the moral value is fixed as is the law ...... can the law accomodate silly concepts like ``freedom of speech`` ? .....fat chance ! ......... contrary to what the apologists would have us think, the taliban are the true face of morality and law in islam - everything else is kaka ( which is a big word ) .........................................................................................................

...these extra dots were for zafar ..... actually zafar mian, there is a science behind the dots - each dot represents a forty three micro-second pause in all mental activity, and five or more dots implies a total disconnect fom the subject of the preceeding sentence .......and so on .....and then i wonder why my wife and urstruly hate me ........

Layman

hamidm #1643:

``you fail to understand that morality and law are one and the same thing ... and since there is no question of morality changing with time and space, how can the laws change ?...... morality is pre-ordained and the laws that govern it cannot and must not be changed .......``

Hamidm, morality and law are two different things. Morality is individual - what is morally acceptable to one (eg eating meat, pork, beef etc) may be immoral to another, whereas the law is the same for everyone in the society. In most societies, laws do reflect the moral values of the dominant section of people - if it is a democracy, then it reflects the morals of the majority... but morals do change and so do laws with time. Eg: our moral views on slavery, child labour, gays etc has changed and with them, laws have changed too.``

``Hamidm, my problem with your posts is that I`` --may be satirically challenged?

Vicky

That was a great post. The reality as all of know is that Pakis have been fed on a heavy dose of fantasies. They gloat over their ``imagined victories`` when there were none. They revel in their victory in minor battles completely losing sight of the big game that they lose most of the times. There Generals are short sighted and the concept of strategy is alien to them as was evident in Kargil war. One can recruit thousands in Pak for a suicide squad but you will find hardly one in their country who can think intelligent and pragmatically. Their foolish leaders have plunged their country into an unwinable war with their neighbour(India) seven times large in population and GDP. At least their father Jinnah had the pragmatism to understand that a perpetual state of confrontation against the giant India will ultimately be suicidal for Pak and hence he advocated a sort of joint defense. Today Pak is in the unenviable condition for which it can blame only its foolish leaders. Whether in the name of Kashmir or Kargil, it continues to fight a suicidal war against its disproportionately powerful adversary, that will ultimately eat up the naiton of Pak itself.

More from `Medieval Islamic Fundamentalist` Pakistan:

Different Women from Different Walks of life:

The Fashion Beauties

http://paknews.com/images/picofday/aug01/0830e.jpg

http://paknews.com/images/picofday/aug01/0825h.jpg

Political Protest

http://paknews.com/images/picofday/aug01/0821e.jpg

Uniformed Pakistani Women

http://paknews.com/images/picofday/aug01/0811e.jpg

To Rsaxena and sigalph

An excerpt from The Fighting Never Stopped- A Comprehensive Guide to World Conflict Since 1945 by Patrick Brogan.

on page 207 of First Amercican Edition 1990

``[Pakistan] has fought three wars with India, and lost all of them.``

an excerpt on the performance of the fabled PAF in 1971 , from the same book.

page 210...``On 3 December, the Pakistani Air Force attempted to repeat the Isreali achievement of the Six Day War of 1967, and destroy the Indian air force on the ground. It failed. .....;in 1971, the Pakistanis attacked the wrong airports, missed the planes on the ground when they found the right ones, and their planes were in turn attacked and destroyed by the Indians.``

Regards

PS- About the author. He was born in Oxford and educated in Cambridge University. He has worked for twenty years as a foreign correspondent, and has experienced firsthand many of the warzones of the world. He has written for numerous newspapers and journals, including The Times(London), The Observer, and the New York Daily News.

I hope he is ``foreign`` enough for you.

sigalph235:

``Nonetheless, please understand that I have the utmost respect for your thoughts even though often we disagree more than a 180 degrees.``

With all due respect, sir, and regardless of who you said this too) the above makes no sense and reeks with a certain political ocrrectness that I join with DRUMZ in raising hackles over. If you disagree ``180 degreses with someone`s thoughts, how on earth can you still claim to `respect` them? (Respecting his rights to hold and spread them is another matter, and should be a given not worth mentioning ad nausuem!)

Sheesh guys, was a time chowk used to be a half fun place!

:-)

PM

(hobbyty dear... shape of things to come :) )

Re: sigalph

``Nonetheless, please understand that I have the utmost respect for your thoughts even though often we disagree more than a 180 degrees.``

Likewise. That is why I even bothered to go looking for those articles.

(Btw, the answer to who won which war is largely irrelevant. It doesn`t change any South Asian`s life for the better or worse. But since ylh seems to love dwelling on irrelevant arguments, the immature person in me loves to take him on.)

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#: 1668

Vicky_Iyer

Pakistan`s flying ace`s .



Vicy Mallu ,Iyer ,Nair,Menon ,whatever

Instead of reading your old LONGA$$ post ,i much rather give you victory .whatever ......now go drink some coco nut water & take care of the worst draught in Orissa ,A.P. people are eating grass instead of smoking it like Americans !!.& what is this eating Mango kernel & winning hollow wars with no spoils to be gained by poor pathetic ppl.

#: 1668

Vicky_Iyer

Pakistan`s flying ace`s .



Vicy Mallu ,Iyer ,Nair,Menon ,whatever

Instead of reading your old LONGA$$ post ,i much rather give you victory .whatever ......now go drink some coco nut water & take care of the worst draught in Orissa ,A.P. people are eating grass instead of smoking it like Americans !!.& what is this eating Mango kernel & winning hollow wars with no spoils to be gained by poor pathetic ppl.

Gowardhan # 1654

Thank you for clarifying your stand vis-a-vis

muslims and islamists.But there is no such thing

as islamist.Granted there are bigots in the islamic world,as also in every other society and

culture.But that does not justify the kind of

all-encompassing statement from you.I leave it to

your judgement.

Regards.