My Last Chappu

Re: Blacks vis-a-vis Desis

There is an important difference between the blacks in USA as compared to the Indians/Pakistanis as a community. A substantial portion of the desis in USA are FIRST generation immigrants. Most of the successes in business or entrepreneurship that you find in Asian communities are usually from the first generation immigrants.

Any immigrant has already gone through a filter - merit for the legal ones, and chutzpah/doggedness/courage for the illegal ones.

Subsequent generations would definitely benefit from the headstart their parents give them, but it`s doubtful if they will have a similar success rate as their forebears.

One of the striking things anyone visiting or living in Silicon Valley will notice is the domination of South Asians (primarily Indians) and chaptas (primarily Chinese) in the technical and entrepreneurship areas.

Another thing that is noticeable is the lack of African Americans in any of these areas. I have worked in a technical capacity with one or two African American my whole life. I had maybe one or two with me in college. In comparison, I have probably worked with or studied with hundreds of Indians.

How many African American CEOs of major (or minor) IT companies can anyone name? I bet you most people can name more Pakistani CEOs of US IT companies.

Considering the fact that an immigrant is on the lowest scale of the US society (just above criminal and just below the people on welfare), how in the world have so many immigrants been able to dominate Silicon Valley, without the help of affirmative action.

Let`s say that there are between 500,000 to 1 million Pakistanis in the USA. One can safely say there must be twice as many African-Americans in the USA with income and opportunities equal to those of the Pakistani-Americans (even if we assume that 80% of the African Americans live below the poverty line). Why haven`t these affluent African-Americans been able to match the success of the Pakistanis, despite having every facility in the world (including affirmative action) available to them? Who is holding them back? And what kind of role models does the Pakistani waiter have, that allows him to eventually become the restaurant owner? So much so, that even though Pakistanis are a much smaller and much much less affluent minority than African-Americans, they are discussing the affirmative action problems of African Americans here on Chowk.

And why are African Americans so successful in the US military, but not in the US private sector?

Affirmative action in its current US form doesn`t work. If it did, there would be far far more affluent African Americans in the US IT industry than Pakistanis (even if we assume 80% of the African Americans are poor).

re fuzair #136:

``I believe in individual rights/responsibility and ethnic based affirmative action argues that the individual is subordinate to the group and has no possible identity other than that of the group`s``

I don`t look at it that way. Even in an extremely individualistic society as the US, ones identity is composed of a number of larger characterisitics. Look at the admissions process. Ones high school, ones SAT score, ones athletic prowess, ones lineage etc. are all factors that strive to create an identity for an applicant. That identity may give others a flawed picture and maybe even the applicant himself may not agree with certain facets but for all practical purposes that`s his/her identity for the evaluators. Why not add race or caste to the mix? One can argue to no end that they are relevant or not but one cannot deny them. When you argue that income levels are a better indicator of preferential treatment aren`t you treating income level as another identity metric? What`s wrong wtih race or caste? You can argue that race or caste are not debilitating factors but income level is. But how does ones race become of no consequence in forming ones identity? Race and caste(even religion) will have to remain important measures of a society`s integration efforts till a time comes that these charactristics are not the top 10 things one notices about the other person.

To continue with the role model argument, here is some anecdotal material(you may choose to disregard it). While in school, I lived in a house that had a bunch of students from the graduate school of business administration. I became friends with this black guy from a remote corner of rural Alabama. He had done the ROTC and owed his presence in the program to affirmative action. He wasn`t as gifted with numbers or a smooth talker like some of his other classmates. Still, the Goldmans and Morgan Stanleys of this world were falling all over themselves to entice him to join their ranks(hamidm`s 12 %). He turned them all down and took up a job near his hometown with a defence contractor. He quickly rose through the ranks and now heads one of their major divisions. He is the first one to admit that race has played a very important role in his success. He`s setup a scholarship for minority kids and takes an active part in his community`s activities. He, undoubtedly serves as a role model for those around him. In my mind, he is a success spawned by affirmative action. He may have taken the seat of a more ``deserving`` candidate at school but what he will give back in terms of hope and inspiration is priceless.

later

-sac

Re: hamidm

I don`t think any self-respecting desi brat embracing capitalism and armed with a degree from a top-tier institution (Rutgers not included) wants those industry jobs at GM, Ford, etc anyway. Who wants to live in that hell-hole called Detroit and toil away for a decade to become a $120K/year middle-manager? There are more riches at places like McKinsey.

bravo Fuzair bravo!

Having lived in the rural midwest, I have seen too many trailer parks to dispute your staistics.

RSaxena

``Dr. Younis Shaikh, a teacher at a medical college in Islamabad and founder and president of Enlightenment, the Pakistani-based International Humanist and Ethical Union member organization, was sentenced to death for blasphemy by a court in Pakistan on August 18. He has one week to appeal this sentence. (See the New York Times International section Aug. 20, 2001).

Dr. Shaikh was arrested on October 4, 2000, by Islamabad police for allegedly saying that the Prophet Mohammed did not become Muslim until the age of 40 (which was when he received his first revelation) and that his parents were non-Muslims (as they died before Islam was proposed by the Prophet). According to the report in the NYT, ``The Movement for the Finality of the Prophet, well known for pursuing blasphemers, filed a criminal complaint and sent a mob to the college and the local police station, threatening to set them on fire.``

Hundreds of people have been convicted of blasphemy in Pakistan, among them moderate Muslims, Christians and members of other religious minorities. The law they are prosecuted under is extremely ill defined. Frequently, people don`t know beforehand that they are committing an offence. While we do not know if Dr. Shaikh will face execution in the short time allowed for his appeal or whether he will languish in jail, we do know that we must mobilize immediately to bring this travesty to the attention of the world community.

YOUR HELP is urgently needed to bring political pressure to bear on Pakistan to stop the death sentence from being carried out. Protests are being planned in London and Oslo.

PLEASE ACT NOW:

1. If you live in the U.S., please contact the U.S. State Department by calling Sec. Colin Powell at (202) 647-4000 or email him at secretary@state.gov.

2. Contact the President of the United States by calling (202) 456-1414 or email him at president@whitehouse.gov.

3. Contact your U.S. Senators and ask them to contact the State Department to bring pressure to bear.

4. Contact Ambassador Dr. Maleeha Lodhi at the Embassy of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in Washington, D.C. at (202) 939-6200 or email her at parepwashington@erols.com.

If you live outside the U.S., please contact the appropriate government agency to call this matter to their attention or see www.iheu.org for further information.``

RE: Fuzair

Wow, thanks for sharing that info. I never thought of it that way...puts a completely different perspective on things.

AAmir,

In the US, Psychiartic residencies are occupied predominantly by foreign medical grads (not just Indians) because it is one of the easier residencies to get in. In terms of income earning potential, psychiatry, pediatrics & family practice are the 3 specialities that pay the least.

Psychiatrists were used in Communist countries, to work on dissidents, alas. Fortunately, the technology to control & change human minds does not exist---yet.

Shirinji,

Thanks

wish i could deliver a chappu if i wanted to,lol.

hamid,

It is alleged that the new found economic growth of the US is fueled by the breaking of the white cieling, the emergence of several non-anglo saxon into the fore.

Ford is headed by a lebanese immigrant from australia, Jack Nasser. You are correvt that not many heads are non-whites, but what is imporatant is the neck that turns the head, which is non-white. that is a chinese saying.

regards

jay.

12-face impostor

Scared of getting caught again? Doctor indeed ... ha ha ha... a witch-doctor maybe.

[Tera khandan ,i can bet my life on it ,wont be able to spell or know the meaning of my degree.]

Fully agree. Not many people have mastered the art of deciphering non-existent objects.

The closest you got anything to do with degrees is probably the thermometer.

[Idiot]

Thanks for signing the post.

Re: Sac #111

You said:

``But wouldn`t you agree that race and caste should be extremely important factors when decisions regarding admissions/promotions are made? Don`t the disadvantaged communities need to see other role models besides athletes and gang-members? Does being born in a black physician`s home take away all the blackness of ones skin? How many times in your teaching career were you faced with difficult choices when the color/race of a candidate was an issue?``

No, I wouldn`t. I believe in individual rights/responsibility and ethnic based affirmative action argues that the individual is subordinate to the group and has no possible identity other than that of the group`s. Are individuals in the US racist? Yes, some certainly are. Is the system racist? No, of course not.

Just this morning I heard a particularly stupid Haitian woman on NPR talking about the racism she experienced here in the US. What she did not mention, when talking about the racism free life she had in Haiti, was that she was too young to know anything about Haitian society when she left. There was/is a very small, pretty white, Haitian upper class in charge and the ``black`` Haitians don`t get very far there.

She also pointed out the Abner Louima (sp?) incident as ``proof`` of US racism. How stupid can you get? This is proof that a very small minority of individuals in the US are racist but that the system is not. Were the police officers promoted? Protected? Not punished? Of course not.

Was Louima punished for speaking up? Didn`t he get a substantial settlement from the city?

As far as the need for minority role models is concerned, of course they are needed. And some did make it to that status even when the US was an awovedly racist society (Ralph Bunche, Gen. B. O. Davis, etc.). Why not use them as the role models instead of professional hustlers such as Jesse Jackson and Sharpton? The problem with your argument is that it permits abuses that far outweigh any possible benefit to society as a whole AND it allows the real racists in the majority/powerful community to denigrate the accomplishments of any successful minority member as being due solely to their ethnicity.

Regards.

Re: Scout #115

I`m afraid you are labouring under a very common misperception, due to the propaganda spread by the black/hispanic leadership, that the US is sytemically biased against minorities when you say that ``most lower income students are of African American/Hispanic/Native American origin.``

According to the 2001 Economic Report of the President (http://w3.access.gpo.gov/usbudget/fy2002/pdf/2001_erp.pdf, check out table B-33 and charts 5.1 and 5.2) there are 21.9 million whites below the poverty line versus 8.4 million blacks. However, it is true that the proportions are very different as only 9.8% of whites versus 23.6% of blacks are below the poverty line. For Hispanics, the proportion below the poverty line is about 23%. But since there are only roughly about as many Hispanics as there are blacks in the US, it is very unlikely that lower income blacks/hispanics outnumber (in absolute terms) lower income whites.

(N.B. I don`t have comparable data for Native Americans but given their very small total population, they are not likely to change the overall conclusions. However, given the appalling poverty rates that I do know about for them, Native Americans would also benefit greatly from any income based affirmative action program.)

Since I don`t think you are seriously suggesting that lower income blacks/hispanics are more likely to go to college than lower income whites, why do minority group leaders vehemently oppose income-based (versus ethnic based) affirmative action programs?

Several reasons for this:

They know that poor whites would benefit from this and they don`t want that since these ``minority leaders`` are among the most virulently racist people outside the KKK and the Aryan Brotherhoods in the US.

They know that their children will not benefit from it and they want their children to go to the best schools, no matter how stupid or lazy they are.

They know that it will then be very hard for them to convince the average minority group member that the US system keeps the minorities down if they realize just how many poor whites there are.

It came as a huge shock to many of my minority students that the face of poverty in the US was not an innercity black/hispanic but a white, rural female. Urban poverty in the US is minority (especially inner city poverty) and that is what most of us see BUT there are many, many more poor people in the countryside than there are in the cities and, guess what, they are not mainly minority.

So, lets help the people who really need help: lower-income children irrespective of ethnicity. Let the lazy and stupid children of the black middle class fend for themselves the way that the lazy and stupid of the white middle class do.

Regards.

Re: deepika/bapu/shah/bijli/aamir

``Biatch``

Do you use that language with your mother too?

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