My Last Chappu

Fuzair #111, So, wouldn`t it make more sense to have affirmative action programs designed to benefit lower-income children? I mean, after all, who is more deserving of help: the son/daughter of

a black physician/lawyer who scored 1100 on his/her SATs or the son/daughter of a dirt-stinking poor white from Appalachia somewhere who scored 1100?``

Of course, you are absolutely right. BUT most lower income students are of African American/Hispanic/Native American origin. The NAtive American community is one of the poorest groups of people in the US. I think universities should do a better job screening applications and thus preventing abuse of the system. Yes, there are a few students who dig around and come up with some Cherokee blood in their veins. But just because the system is abused by some (which is inevitable in any university system), doesn`t mean we should do away with affirmative action.

I think it does more good than harm.

``Incidentally, Scout, the black/hispanic beneficiaries of affirmative action can`t wait to get out of the `hood or the bario and join the Anglos in the burbs. They don`t want to help their downtrodden and oppressed groups either.``

It`s good that they are joining the `Anglos in the burbs` and setting up a good base for themselves and their future generations. Isn`t that the point of affirmative action? These minorities who move out of their barrios/slums are helping minority status by doing just that, moving out.

They are improving people`s negative image of minorities, and thus helping establish more trust in minorities. By doing this, hopefully they`ll set the cycle to go up instead of down.

hamidm #106,

``but then why should the nerd suffer because he or she happens to be the wrong color ? .... there is a place for affirmative action but it shouldn`t be at the expense of another group.``

The nerd will not suffer, he/she will `make it` somewhere somehow. But for other groups, affirmative action is the only way they are going to `make it.` Also, we can`t expect everything to be fair in an affirmative action program. It`s more about choosing the lesser of two evils. If universities don`t have such programs, some minority students will never have the golden opportunities that they desperately need to get somewhere.

``nobody should be denied the education they deserve because they cannot afford it (or are the wrong color) , but first they must meet the minimum requirements ``

Like I said, many admissions committees aren`t just taking any African American off the street and putting them in school. They are taking the good students (within their communities) who are motivated. Aren`t these two qualities minimum requirements? And I`m all for programs which accept students based on financial need. IF I may use the example of my university, they did accept lesser qualified Caucasian/Asian students who came from lower socioeconomic areas and communities.

``are we telling the african-americans that they are not good enough to get in so we will lower the standard for them ?``

standards are relative to life situations. are you telling me that a Hispanic student surrounded by gangs and crime, coming from a broken family, working to help support his family, and still managing to get a good score on his SAT or do relatively well in high school is less deserving of an education than a Chinese kid coming from a well-to-do family, having all the time to study for exams and prepare well.

``afterall, the NFL or the NBA does not lower its standards to admit white athletes ........``

LIke i said, standards are relative to our environment. We can`t take opportunities away from people who didn`t have the proper environment or encouragement in their lives to do exceptionally well in high school.

RSaxena

Fair enough

regards

RSaxena #109

12-faced scoundrel a doctor?!? That`s a riot. I can take a bet this guy is writing from the solitary confinement room of a school for special children.

If this guy is a doctor I am queen Victoria.

Boy, you do away for a little while and things pick up! I have to come down on the side of the anti-affirmative action group here. The simple truth of the matter is that ethnic (or caste) based affirmative action is simply designed to buy off the leaders of the `down-trodden and oppressed` minority group. In effect, the govt/dominant-ethnic group says, ``OK, we know that some wrong was done to your community by ours. We cannot and will not fix the real problem. But this is what we will do for you personally. We will give you X% quota in admissions/jobs/contracts/whatever so that you and your kids do not have to compete against smarter/harder-working/better-qualified people from our group. In exchange for this, we expect you to keep quiet and don`t make too much trouble. Is it a deal?``

This is the de facto rationale for affirmative action policies. As Shankar points out, the ones who benefit the most from these are NOT the truly deserving but the lazy ones from middle-class backgrounds who know they don`t have to work because a place is reserved for them.

There is absolutely NO doubt at all whatsoever that students from lower socio-economic backgrounds are indeed at a competitive disadvantage vis a vis students from higher socio-economic backgrounds. So, wouldn`t it make more sense to have affirmative action programs designed to benefit lower-income children? I mean, after all, who is more deserving of help: the son/daughter of a black physician/lawyer who scored 1100 on his/her SATs or the son/daughter of a dirt-stinking poor white from Appalachia somewhere who scored 1100? This should be a no-brainer but our liberals (actually, liberals everywhere) can`t seem to figure it out. Why not?

Incidentally, Scout, the black/hispanic beneficiaries of affirmative action can`t wait to get out of the `hood or the bario and join the Anglos in the burbs. They don`t want to help their downtrodden and oppressed groups either. And before you get on your almighty great moral horse, I taught--two classes a semester while working on my Ph.D.--for five years in a community college with a non-Anglo student majority, so I do know something of what I`m talking about.

Regards.

Scout

re: #99

Your post mentioned that you had worked with students from urban backrounds; would you be interested in writing about what your impressions and experiences were? I personally would be interested in reading them; I am currently working with an urban population of students(first time doing it), and would like to compare notes.

regards

Re: Studebaker

``,for some NEVER MESS WITH MUSKIMS HONOR``

What`s that supposed to mean? That one should be afraid of ``messing with a Muslim`s honor`` but not with anyone else`s? Or that being Muslim makes the guy special or extra brave? Elsewhere, you claimed to be a doctor...you, and that other clown krashid embarass your profession`s nobility.

RSaxena #94

Please read the whole text of my post and then make the opinion you are making.

Mona

scout

``if they are motivated enough to get an education, why should they suffer because some desi or chinese nerd got a 1600 on their SATs?``

........ but then why should the nerd suffer because he or she happens to be the wrong color ? .... there is a place for affirmative action but it shouldn`t be at the expense of another group ..... nobody should be denied the education they deserve because they cannot afford it (or are the wrong color) , but first they must meet the minimum requirements ........ financial aid is okay but quotas are discriminatory and also demeaning for the beneficiary ......are we telling the african-americans that they are not good enough to get in so we will lower the standard for them ?....... afterall, the NFL or the NBA does not lower its standards to admit white athletes ........

........ i know this is a very sensitive and politically charged subject and common horse-sense has nothing to do with it ........ we don`t want the al sharpton all over us, do we?

scout

``if they are motivated enough to get an education, why should they suffer because some desi or chinese nerd got a 1600 on their SATs?``

........ but then why should the nerd suffer because he or she happens to be the wrong color ? .... there is a place for affirmative action but it shouldn`t be at the expense of another group ..... nobody should be denied the education they deserve because they cannot afford it (or are the wrong color) , but first they must meet the minimum requirements ........ financial aid is okay but quotas are discriminatory and also demeaning for the beneficiary ......are we telling the african-americans that they are not good enough to get in so we will lower the standard for them ?....... afterall, the NFL or the NBA does not lower its standards to admit white athletes ........

........ i know this is a very sensitive and politically charged subject and common horse-sense has nothing to do with it ........ we don`t want the al sharpton all over us, do we?

Romair,

Thanks bud.

Now lets you & I share a cup of tea on a shikara on Dal Lake while these RSS types throw rotten tomatoes at us:)

What they dont realise (eventhough I`ve told them a million times), the more they insult me, the better I feel about myself, that I`m on the right track.

Ref Romair #: 95

[If the exact same identical argument you have presented, with the same logic, had been presented by someone of a lower caste, living in India, who had not been able to get into any medical college at all, I think people would have generally supported it.]

Well, how about this? I know a Brahmin from an extremely wealthy family of industrialists in Chennai, who studied at the IIT, and is now working at the top of the food chain in a software company. HE doesn`t need an education because he could have sat on his ass for the next 6 generations and lived a comfortable life. But he chose to study hard enough to get into an IIT where there is strict merit-based admission. He has chosen to work hard in a sales position in an industry unrelated to his family business and has demonstrated his ability to rise on his own.

You know what his attitude to this affirmative action business is? One of total contempt for those middle-class ``reservation candidates``. His question is: why can`t YOU get into an IIT?

I think his position is well justified.

On the other hand, the headshrinker needs to get HIS head shrunk to see why he is carrying this rage inside his head for the last couple of decades.

He still hasn`t told us what his rank in medical college was.

It is well known that the least preferred specialty among desi doctors is psychiatry. One has to wonder if the shrink would have been able to handle medicine or surgery.

On the other hand, if it is a question of leisure time and freedom from midnight calls, one would think that he could have tried for ophthalmology or dermatology. Considering the extremely tough competition for those residencies, I am sure the shrink could not have handled rejection in the ``land of equal opportunities`` when he is told to go for psychiatry and might have gone postal.

Shrink, are you by any chance one of those guys who had to take FMGEMS examination 13 times to pass?

RE: saminashah

I`ve been to a lecture by Vijay Prasad when he visited the university I went to. But since I have never spoken with him or read his work, I don`t know his views well enough to comment on them. Same for Cornel West (Harvard?).

I am not suggesting that we or any group become a model minority (if there ever is such a thing). It is not realistic since each group has unique issues which make it different from any other group.

My belief that the black and hispanic community has not done enough for itself in the past 20 or so years is not based on comparing them to anyone. Surely I can`t expect a black child from the projects with a single mother barely making ends meet to do as well on the SAT as a desi child, who despite being a minority, has a strong family who will go to great lengths to make sure he/she gets into Princeton -- even if it means spending money they can`t afford to get the little dunce into some SAT prep class.

What bothers me is when I see perfectly fine black and hispanic families playing the victim card for no good reason. And I have seen a number of them.

. . . since this thread has moved towards desis not paying back their (USofA) alma maters . . . Yale was founded on money and profits made by the Governor of Madras who, amongst other things, passed on the secrets of making gunpowder to DuPont.

I think this reverse migration of desis into UK/USA etc is reverse payback enough.

whatever

indian progress,

It is heartening to see the shankars of the world complaining about reverse discrimination. There might even be a point in it now. In the good old days, 35 years ago, the talk was about the quality of the untouchable graduates. The wide opposition was that the gradustes, because the adimission criteria have been relaxed will end up as killing doctors, engineers with colapsing designs, and teachers who will stuuf up the entire education program.

The words of shankar is a symbol progress, one can only imagine the views of his earlier lineage.

my two cents on affirmative action in america:

at my university, while desis were busy getting laid or dripping coconut oil on their textbooks.. Equal Opportunity students from inner cities were busy learning study techniques (i tutored them in calculus and statistics)...

if they are motivated enough to get an education, why should they suffer because some desi or chinese nerd got a 1600 on their SATs?

besides, the socioeconomically disadvantaged students who DO get in through affirmative action are good students overall, so it`s not a charity gesture accepting them.

in the long run, these very students are the ones who will eventually get the African/Hispanic American communities in the US out of the socio-economic hole that they are in.