Top Ten South Asian Pieces of Music

#130,#131,#132

TANTROLIGICIAN

Is your nick inspired logic from this smut?

TANTRIC RITUAL

from fireplug.net/

re: #124

No wisecracks, ok? :)

Re:Reply #: 124

ahmed Madani,

Just call me Sridhar. I am older than you but in USA everyone calls everyone else by his/her first name.

I do not know much about IT. Someone from Pakistan on Chowk can help you with names of training institutes in Pak. Correspondence course for IT does not sound like a good idea to me. Anyway, good luck to you. Do not worry about your English. There are lots of people in USA who do not know any english and are still surviving here.

Sridhar

Re: Reply #: 127

shima,

I agree with what you said about Madani though i have not seen the sitcom that you mentioned. The only British things we get to watch in USA have to do with the royalty. Quite a lot about Diana. Also, sometimes back, they were showing this British comedy ``Are you being served``. I thought it was hilarious.

Sridhar

Asif Naqshabandi:

I agree with you on the quality of Iranian movie. IMO, however, Iranian movies do not really portray an Islamic ethos. The movies are about day to day lives of ordinary people, and yes, these Iranian movie directors tend to find poetry in everyday situations. I haven`t seen an Iranian movie which is religious, at least not any which have become popular,

Tantralogician, (in post #131) you really must READ before going off like a blunderbuss in a Yosemite cartoon. Here is what I said:

``He came to Pakistan, his land of dreams, and lived in LaluKhet til he died.``

Where does this say anything about his lack of love for Delhi? I talked with him and he expressed a deep love for Delhi. He also expressed his hopes and dreams for Pakistan. It is a tragedy that we in Pakistan did not value him as we should have, and in fact there are many other musicians/artistes TODAY, that we in Pakistan do not value. I consider these treatments criminal. Ustad Bundoo Khan lived a poor man in the slums of LaluKhet. He had to feel bitterness at his treatment, yet he only expressed love for Pakistan. So don`t go giving me any crap about fantasies/schmantasies. I am angry enough at the way we treat our artistes. Besides, this is a MUSIC forum. Keep it this way. I want to hear about MUSIC, not another mudslinging match. I really have no patience for it.

Reply Tantralogician #132

Reply to #121

“…most of the great Indian ustads have never found it a problem acknowledging their Hindu roots and the Hindu antecedents of their music. In fact, several of them, eg. Alladiya Khan, Alladdin Khan etc, lived much like Hindus.”

As opposed to living like Muslims? How? What’s the difference? I don`t think that there is one.

“Which is not surprising since the gharanedar musicians typically came from a lineage where at the top of the line you would find a Hindu convert.”

Um…that’s true of most South Asian Muslims, actually.

“Someone also mentioned that it is hard to find classical music courses in India and Pakistan. It is eminently possible that that situation obtains in Pakistan, the cultural and moral Siberia of our times.”

Mashallah, Tantralogician, you have a wonderful way with words.

Zafar

PS Your assumption that all South Asian Muslims who say something you don’t agree with are espousing a Pakistani viewpoint does your argument no favours.

tantralogician:Tantric

Excuse meeeeeeeee.

Isn`t it OBVIOUS that “Indian” ragas are HINDU`S creations. Did I mean Dhurpad -- before the Muslims -- was developed by the Christians? What insecurity!

When I used the term Muslims polishing Dhurpud into Kheyal -- I was implying the term ``Muslim`` in relation to supposed influence of the Arab and Iranian musical system on Indian music -- suggested by another interactor.

Dhurpud is of course well developed - but it’s slow, monotonous, and dull -- without much improvisations -- and by the way -- the ONLY exponents of Dhurpud in its true form in India --unfortunately for you -- are still the one and ONLY Dagar brothers -- the much Hindutva hated -- inevitable Muslims – looks like you can’t escape the Moosulmans – anyway.

cheers

Reply to #134

nasah writes:

``Dhurpud is of course well developed - but it’s slow, monotonous, and dull -- without much improvisations -- ``

It may be, to the casual, uncultivated ear but not to those who understand and know. There are Dhrupad lovers aplenty who have no training in or formal knowledge of music. Khayal has its own set of technique and aesthetic and Dhrupad has its own way. To elevate one at the expense of the other is silly not to mention a reflection of the protagonists musical development, the lack of it to be sure.

nasah:

``and by the way -- the ONLY exponents of Dhurpud in its true form in India --unfortunately for you -- are still the one and ONLY Dagar brothers -- the much Hindutva hated -- inevitable Muslims - looks like you can’t escape the Moosulmans - anyway.``

I doubt the Hindutva fellows would hate Dagars. The Dagars sing praises of Shambho-Mahadeva almost everyday through their Dhrupads. But more to the point, your assertions that the Dagars are the ``ONLY`` exponents of ``true`` Dhrupad (whatever

that means) is plain wrong. The Mallicks and the Tewaris of Darbhanga (Bihar) are the other major families around, their descendents very much active even today. There is also the Talwandi branch dhrupadiyas (some of them in Pakistan, by the way). Please study a little before you peck away at your keyboard.

Reply to #135

Eklayva writes:

``I am no musicologist but it seems to me that the Indian classical music is one of the grandest, noblest, and proudest achievements of Hindu Muslim

commingling.``

This is an oft-repeated sweet-nothing. I would say, it is a product of Indian civilization. That some of the practitioners in recent times have been Muslims is incidental. Indian music is a long history of accretion (a veru Hindu characteristic) building upon tradition, imbibing an idea here and there from elsewhere and so on. The topic is too large to be covered in a few sound bytes.

Reply to #143

wadera writes:

``Tantralogician, (in post #131) you really must READ before going off like a blunderbuss in a Yosemite cartoon. Here is what I said: ``He came to Pakistan, his land of dreams, and lived in LaluKhet til he died.`` Where does this say anything about his lack of love for Delhi?``

But you mentioned the Pakistan as the ``land of his dreams`` as if that is something he dreamt of and aspired for. Do a search on Google groups (http://groups.google.com) and type in the keywords ``Bundu`` and ``Dhar``.

Reply to #144

Zafar Al-Talib writes:

``As opposed to living like Muslims? How? What’s the difference? I don`t think that there is one.``

Point taken, Zafar. I ought to have worded my sentence better.

Wassalaam,

tantralogician

Reply Nasah #134

Nasah

You made a very reasonable response to a perhaps less than reasonable (but how is it tantric?) dummy spit.

But:

“Dhurpud is of course well developed - but it’s slow, monotonous, and dull -- without much improvisations –“

Admittedly Dhrupad is much less easy to listen to than Khayal because there are no words to “hang” your attention on. It is also much slower in the way it unfolds a raga. But it is truly lovely if one actually gives it one’s full attention – not monotonous or dull at all! Give it another listen and another chance.

(Hmmm….Khayal is the “muzak” version of Dhrupad…possible discussion topic?)

“ and by the way -- the ONLY exponents of Dhurpud in its true form in India --unfortunately for you -- are still the one and ONLY Dagar brothers -- the much Hindutva hated -- inevitable Muslims”

Blast from the past! I have wonderful memories of the Dagar brothers performances in Delhi.

They also lived on the top floor of a house I used to walk past every day on my way to and from the school bus stop – and quite often I could hear them practicing. I had no idea what a privilege that was, otherwise I would have stopped and listened more often than I did. (But what can I say – frivolous from early childhood, that’s me.)

“ – looks like you can’t escape the Moosulmans – anyway.”

But who would want to, since we are all so charming and lovely, no?

Best regards,

Zafar

Re:SameerJB#113

Actually the Bade Ghulam Ali song in Mugal-e-Azam (Prem Jogan Ban Ke) is in Raag Sohni rather than Darbari. The seduction scene of Dilip Kumar and Madhubala was shot earlier. Khan saheb wanted to view the scene while singing for it. Hence his voice modulation is timed closely with the actual movements on the screen. It is truly a masterpiece.

An interesting thing about classical music is that different raags remind you of various seasons, emotions and even time of day. Raag Darbari is a beautiful raag that was actually created by Tansen. When you hear it, you can feel the regal atmosphere for which it is intended. Bade Ghulam Ali has some excellent recordings in Darbari. By the way, if you are interested in classical music, try out the website www.musicindiaonline.com for some indian classical audio clips of various ustads.

Re:Eklavya#136

I totally agree with you that classical music is the joint heritage of both hindus and muslims in the subcontinent. The reason it is so beautiful is that it has been nurtured and improved by everyone. Any attempt to give it a sectrian label is absolutely foolish. While, hindus invented the fundamentals of classical music, muslims took it to another level by developing new forms, inventing new instruments, providing royal patronage and most importantly, giving us some of the greatest performers of classical music.

In India we have had a renaissance in classical music. Organizations like SPIC-MACAY and Gandharva Mahavidyalaya have contributed tremendously to spread awareness of classical music among common folks. I have heard that present generation Pakistanis don`t value classical music very much, which is truly a tragedy.

Does anyone know of some good Desi poetry sites ? preferably in the Roman style ?

sa:)

Thanks dost-mittar, Neptune, Truth, Shima, Eklavya and Amit for sharing your thought with me despite making so many mistakes, though all innocent ones. It makes me doubly grateful for forgiving my mistakes and and responding in the most delighted and respectful ways. Can you imagine YLH or F_K calling raga darbari to raga sohni, crediting a song to S. D. Berman instead of Sachdeva?, calling Chanchal Singh to Nirender Chanchal, writing dawa instead of zaban and so on? I must be taking this thread lightly and not thinking before writing.

I visited both the URLs Neptune and Amit mentioned and both are great. I will be visiting those sites often in the future. I have absolutely no opinion about Dharupad and Khayal and plan to put some effort of my own to learn the difference between them. All I can say, which I might have said tens of times on chowk, is that whenever we talk about Islam, it is religion only and when we say Musalmaan, it does not mean culturally non-Indian. Hinduism term on the other hand is used both for religion as well as culture. In this sense, Islam and Hinduism are two distinct religions whereas a Musalmaan and Hinduism do not always mean that wide gulf in terms of culture. It is impossible to define clear boundaries between the cultures of Indian Hindus and Muslims, particularly when they are involved in a profession definitely desi in origin and propagation through centuries. Certain professions are more Islamic than Hindu and Muslim tailors tending to the needs of Muslim women (burqa) and butchers (meat sellers) might have certain distinct Islamic culture but not in classical music. How can a Pakistani Muslim take pride in certain musicians of Muslim origin when the Islamic Pakistan practically forced out most well-known Muslim musician, Bare Ghulam Ali Khan. He migrated to India after 1947 against his wishes to stay in Lahore. Had it not been for Noor Jehan and Khursheed Anwer, Pakistani music industry would have truly been barren-siberia. Mehdi Hasan, coming from well known gharana from Rajhistan, had to work odd jobs for several years before finally becoming known. Khayyam, Shamshad Begum and M. Rafi (all three from east Punjab) chose not to migrate to Pakistan in addition to a pucca lahori Surriya Jamal Sheikh. Should Musalmaans hate them because they stayed back and hate Bare Ghulam Ali Khan for dumping Pakistan for India? Absolutely not. Similarly Hindus should not hate Noor Jehan or Khursheed Anwer or Bundoo Khan for migating to Pakistan. Because, music is a discipline of culture and Hindu-Muslim titles are really meaningless. A good piece of music is a good piece of music any way you look at it and that is it.

re: tantralogician # 146

Tantra,

Your knowledge of music is most impressive. My involvement with classical music, on the other hand, has been limited to helping local SPIC-MACAY chapters organize a couple of concerts. So no arguments there.

I do, however, have some concerns.

1. It seems difficult to believe that in a thousand years Muslims have made only some incidental contributions to the development of Indian classical music. This view becomes all the more untenable when you consider the fact that at least in the present times many of our best musicians have been muslims. You would agree that a vast majority of Muslims in India/Pakistan had Hindu ancestors. Doesnt seem reasonable to think that they would lose their ability to make original contributions to classical music once they became Muslims.

2. I agree that Indian music is a product of Indian civilization. But Indian civilization is not Hindu or Muslim or Christian. And continuous growth, development and adaptaion by learning and by accretion is an INDIAN trait, not a Hindu trait. Thus our modern Indian civilization, as it exists today, is the shared product of a collective life in which all communities have participated. Do we not do injustice to this stupendous achievement by making exclusive claims on parts of it? What value do such claims add even if they could be substantiated?

3. In any case, I find the whole discussion regarding religious identities of people in non-religious fields at best superfluous (at worst, it can be downright disgusting and harmful). I dont see how a person can be a better physicist, athlete, singer or sitar player just because he or she was born a Hindu or a Muslim. So any pride of any kind associated with Hindu achievements or Muslim achievements seems out of place to me. I have often criticized our Pakistani friends for giving in to such kind of thinking, and I truly dont feel comfortable seeing Indians - whether they be Hindus or Muslims or anybody else - going that route.

Or, am I completely misreading you?

Regards,

EK

tantralogician
Why mix politics and music? If you want to share information on specifics to give proper perspective thats one thing, you donot seem to be doing that. What do you or music gain anyway with heated tempers ?

At Partition, people migrated or didnot migrate according to their personal proclivities. We are lucky to be able to enjoy the efforts of those who managed to succeed and flourish, whether on one side of the border or another.

For instance, the lyricist Qamar Jalalabadi and his family(Hindus) apparently migrated from Afghanistan, at Partition. His homeland and former countrymen lost him and his talents, and they are the poorer for it. We enjoy Mehdi Hassan, though he migrated from from India. We enjoy Naushad, though he didnot migrate from India.

And btw, I think you mention the so-called `Hindu` characteristic of `accretion` essentially to get yourself on a spurious upper ground here. Accretion works both ways, brother. Have you considered, what did the Europeans contribute to the development of Indian music, literature or any of the arts? Was there a similar symbiosis and sythesis of culture, religion, talents and skills in the arts leading to new styles , new creations and vigor? Did they even bother to patronize the Indian arts officially?

The irony is you are likely to have migrated out of India and will kick up a big fuss if the contributions of your own culture from the subcontinent to your adopted homeland were ever looked down for being `late arrivals`. And what if such a labelling is done after tens of generations of your descendents have lived, sweated and died in their homeland, Mr logician?