Breaking News: September 11, 2001

MY WORST NIGHTMARE - NUCLEAR BLACKMAIL

1. US discovers it is a mix of Afghan/Arab/Pakis who were involved in the attack.

2. US asks Musharraf to help it punish the Taliban/Osama and close down jehad factories in Pakistan.

3. Musharraf refuses. Or Musharraf agrees but is replaced by hardline faction that refuses to target Taliban/local jehadis.

4. US threatens to bomb Pakistan out of existence.

5. Pakistan threatens to nuke India if US tries to attack it.

That is my worst nightmare. Pak missiles cannot reach the US but they definitely can reach India. This was similar to Saddam Hussain launching Scuds on Israel during the Gulf War, as he couldn`t attack US/UK.

So, I really hope for India`s sake, Musharraf gets his act right, in case Osama is involved.

From New York Times

``It`s not just simply a matter of capturing people and holding them accountable,`` said Paul D. Wolfowitz, the deputy secretary of defense, ``but removing the sanctuaries, removing the support systems, ending states who sponsor terrorism.``

If Wolfowitz is serious, which I assume he and Rumsfeld always are, just capturing Bin Laden and turning him over to US will not end this mess for Pakistan. Removing the sanctuaries and support systems will cause a fundamental structural change in ruling establishment of Pakistan. This is going to be very interesting and very frightening for all of us.

samina #456
I have to admit, thinking of the world`s richest country forming a coalition with the rest of the world to attack the worlds poorest country or second poorest country makes me want to hug a tree myself, because it doesn`t make any sense somehow. Unfortunately the worlds poorest country`s honored guest apparently managed to cause approx 5000 citizens of the worlds richest country(and apparently a few hundred from my own country) to die in a single day(which doesnot make much sense either), holding out the prospect of more such senseless incidents.
I agree the `why us` question JARS badly and always has.
You take care(aicha,scout, Zahra ?and other NY`ers too).

Dost -mittar #

[[``May I suggest that all of us choose a cyberbuddy who has our Email, phone, etc. and let us know who their buddy is, so that in case of prolonged absence (I`m thinking here of Krashid) we could ask the buddy to check in on the welfare of the missing person``.]]

Very nice thought .Incidentally Krashid is well. Just busy with some personal commitments .

However many would like to mantain their annonymity, so i dont know how successful this venture can be ?

love,

sa:)

Another Perspective!


In the heart of darkness
When God seems all too distant, what’s the right response?

By Ira Rifkin
MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR

ANNAPOLIS, Md., Sept. 13 — “…We believe in the sun even when it is not shining. We believe in God even when He is silent.” I chanted those words as part of a prayer recited during a memorial service at my synagogue in Annapolis, Md., Tuesday night for the victims of the worst terrorist attack ever, anywhere. I would very much like to believe they are true. But my faith, often wobbly, is even shakier after the day of unspeakable evil.

[My struggle is to believe in a sun that appears absent and a God who, once again, seems mute in the face of radical evil.]

EVERYTHING seems perversely inverted.
My wife and I have friends in Jerusalem who know terrorism all too well. A few years back, their youngest son was caught up in a terrorism attack at a popular pedestrian mall in that city. One suicide bomber exploded in front of him; a second followed suit behind him. The boy miraculously survived, but suffered major injuries that took years to overcome. He still suffers psychologically, and his family has been devastated. We e-mail these friends constantly to offer support and make sure they are safe in the midst of war. Tuesday, they contacted us to make we were okay, as did other friends and relatives living in Israel. And Israel declared a day of mourning for the United States.

Suddenly, Jerusalem seems safer than New York. Incredible. People in Israel worried about people in the U.S., wondering whether it is safe to visit here. What a startling turn of events. I’m stunned by the implications.

[STRIKING BACK:Terrorists who hijacked the Koran to cloak their hatred will, in the end, have hurt those who follow the Koran as much, or perhaps more, as anybody.]

As of this writing, we do not know with certainty who is responsible for the extraordinary attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, and as a journalist I’m cautious about placing blame without solid evidence. But virtually everyone in the U.S. government and the media is pointing fingers at Osama bin Laden’s organization, which acted perhaps with the aid of other Islamic terrorists, or even the involvement of a rogue state. The likelihood of that being the case seems all but assured.

Former Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir once said that she could forgive Israel’s Arab adversaries for killing her nation’s young men and women, but that she could never forgive them for forcing Israelis to kill young Arab men and women. Hatred becomes internalized and turns on the hater, consuming the heart, the mind, and even physical health.

We must not allow hatred and anger to blind us to the fact that in the United States, certainly, the overwhelming majority of Arabs and Muslims in no way condone what happened Tuesday. Do not be poisoned by the desire for mindless revenge. Do not devolve to the level of the terrorists. Do not hand them that victory.

Remember, New York is a polyglot. Many Arab-Americans and Muslim-Americans undoubtedly were among the tens of thousands who worked at the World Trade Center, and may have died there Tuesday. The damage done to Islam in America, and probably across the Western world, is incalculable. It appears that terrorists who hijacked the Koran to cloak their hatred will, in the end, have hurt those who follow the Koran as much, or perhaps more, as anybody. Whoever is responsible cared little about whom they killed — Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, atheist. None were spared.

At the same time, let us not ignore the hard reality laid bare Tuesday. Well-executed terrorist actions by individuals ready to die, and who even embrace martyrdom, can succeed with devastating results. From here on, let no one, and no nation, get away with excusing terrorist acts by explaining them as understandable reactions to real or perceived grievances; not on religious grounds, and not on political grounds. The danger of this slippery slope of tacit approval is now all too horribly apparent. There are other, nonviolent ways to confront grievances. Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. showed their effectiveness. Evil does exist in the world and morality as understood by most people of faith demands that it be labeled for what it is, and confronted forcefully.

As for me, I will embrace those I love a bit harder, and I will donate blood to those I do not know, and I will wait for what comes next. And I will dwell on the words of Oklahoma Rep. J.C. Watts, who, at a Capitol prayer vigil Wednesday, expressed his certainty that even though he hand of God appeared absent Tuesday, he rests in the assurance that the heart of God is not. My struggle is to believe in a sun that appears absent and a God who, once again, seems mute in the face of radical evil.

Ira Rifkin is a religion writer and editor and an adjunct professor of journalism at American University in Washington, D.C.

Glory will be to Pakistan if she went ahead and grabbed Bin Laden from wherever he is hiding and delivered him to the World.

What do you say? Don`t you think that a division of the Pakistani Army or a few from the brave sipah-e-sahaba? or the MQM, could go into Afghanistan and get this man dragging and kicking? and present him to the world courts to decide whether or not to condemn him?

Would not all Pakistanis be heroes then, if the country took unilateral action to grab the prime suspect in this heinous attack and delivered him to justice?

Today on a panle discussion on PTV, the three participants were of the considered opinion that Isrealis and Indians have done the WTC thing.

The argument was since Isrealis do thing with accuracy they are the prime suspects. Then one of the panelists , a retired major said the Isrealis are so accurate that they `` they shot a missile through a window, only breaking the glass and not breaking the frame and killed a palestinian politician. The same accuracy was shown in ramming a plane in WTC. Only ISreali pilots could have done such a accurate thing`` and the reminaing two panelists nodded vigrously. They said there is zionists & Hindu conspiracy to defame Muslims and Islam. Further since the Jews and Indians are the two most prosperous communities in USA, surely they have the resources!!!

IS something genetically wrong with the PAki race???

Eklavya, Sadna

Thanks, but dont get carried away. You obviously have not read my less than seeming responses to one or two of the interactors on Chowk, who may I with deep gratitude report, have left me alone.

But, I appreciate the kind words. I am actually learning how to be more civil from a few of the Chowkwallas here...(but not you, FK, not until you change that interesting nickname)

I am going to try to speak honestly and simply here. This attack has had an immeasurable impact on my life and all the people I know. I have many conflicting emotions, probably ones that all the Chowkies in NYC/DC have. I think we ought to be able to raise certain viewpoints without having to resort to the nationalism that will not serve us. If not here, then where?

I am aware of what the average US citizen hopefully knows, to some extent, that the US govt. has supported in various countries in Central America, Africa, Asia and The Middle East. What I find a bit hard to swallow is this theme I hear, from the media, to college kids, which is, ``why us?`` I find it hard to believe that the citizens of this country seem to think they are exempt from the kind of senseless violence(name your type)that every country in the world has experienced. This is a position that is based in a power dynamic. Everytime I hear someone on t.v. saying, ``I never thought it would happen in this country``, I cringe.

I also feel that this attack is an barbaric act and I hope that whoever is responsible for supporting these people is brought to justice. None of us are going to be very comfortable in the future, none of us will belong to one place only.

The people who are involved in the rescue efforts are extraordinary.It becomes very clear to me when I watch or hear about their efforts. You either support life or you support death. Peace or violence. As the resident tree hugger at Chowk, my opinion isnt going to change.And I probably wont be on Chowk for the next two days, because I will be taking care of someone who is involved in the relief effort and is my personal, household hero.

Take Care Chowkwallahs.

Talibani goose is about to be cooked.

United States, NATO, Russia, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kazakhstan, Iran -- AND Pakistan -- are gearing up to encircle Afghanistan and finally rid the world of the Talibani pests .

So the Big Crunch for Mr. Musharraf finally arrived at his door – either choose Taliban and be damned forever -- or ``help`` US and NATO eradicate Talibans -- and be damned by Fazloo mian and Qazir jee -- forever.

Now this is getting caught between the hard rock and the sea.

Ex Pakistani ambassador Haqqani said on US TV -- that the Army government is with US (wise decision) -- is only asking for assurance from US -- that the US will protect Musharraf from the wrath of its own Talibans!!

Not a good time to be the ``President`` of Pakistan – is it?

Grabbing the elected government at gunpoint was so much ``fun`` -- now Mr. Musharraf must wish he had not.

Oh yes RSaxena and others . . . grief has a habit of drying its own tears.

The Japanese who died in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, after the Portugal meeting where it was decided to end the War. Indians of all sorts in Kashmir who continue to die because people from neighbouring countries simply want more land. The Holocaust and did somebody research where the gas was made, and on whose ships it crossed the Atlantic.

I do agree with one thing, though.

Why blame the Arabs or Muslims only? Going by past experience, they don`t have the courage, brains or the sustainability to effect something like this.

Those of you who will listen, remember Oklahoma and TWA? The Aa-rahbs done it . . . and then what happened?

Something is too pat about the way the investigations are unfolding, and me-thinks one of the pointers is in the way the economies of the world are moving.

But back to the issue of grief.

I think people like Noam Chomsky said it best. Go read him before you pile on to me for stating the obvious.

Incidentally, for students of body language, have you seen how Musharaf suddenly looks like a bent over wizened old man while Vajpayee seems to be raring to go?

Reply SD #445

Sadna and Sadhna seem to be two different people on Chowk. Just thought you should know.

Hamidm. 124.

Have you gone rancid in the mind. You crazy man, you think you get a goddamn wahi during the

night?

For all we know some Private Michigan Militia may have done this plan [re. Oklahoma and Clinton`s speech! Had a traffic policeman not stopped the real culprit, you and clinton would still be looking at ``Arab`` or, ``Muslim`` ``terrorists`` pictures, in the company of Sadhna!] and you are already in the maidan with teer-o-talwar against Afghanistan and the cursed Qandhar and its cursed grandfather ``kh`luf jinn ka na`kh`ulf, youN tp r`ha hai``, b`qol Ustad Mam Din. L`a`anut ho tum pr. I used to agree with you so much but didn/t know that you are just as khali in the belfry as 70 percent of your cohorts on the Chowk and elsewhere.

SD

I always looked forward to your writings but my ill-health and such kept me away from the Groups. Today I opened the Chowk and saw Sadhna`s #421 and yours. Curse on you both.

re: Romair #419

``If it makes any Pakistani feel any better (or more confident), they should know, that by a gigantic margin, more innocent Muslims are being, and have been, killed by non-Muslims in this world in the past thirty years, than vice-versa; from India (tens of thousands according to Amnesty Intl.) to Iraq (more than 100,000 according to the Ramsey report) to Afghanistan (1 million by the the Soviets), Palestine/Lebanon (thousands killed by Israelis) etc. Thousands of times (yes, 1000s x) more ammunition has been bombarded on innocent Muslims since WWII, than on any other peoples. I find it hard to accept the logic that they all brough it upon themselves. Has every family of these millions of Muslims ever resorted to terrorism to get revenge?``

Here are the numbers above:

Kashmir: 70,000 (lets assume ALL were killed by the `hindu` army)

Iraq: 100,000

Afghanistan: 1,000,000

Palestine: 50000 (say).

Total = 1.22 million



He forgot 3.00 million bengali muslims killed by pakistan. More than twice all the rest put togather.

Just a small detail - probably slipped his mind.

Yet another half-baked post, from the pathetic half-breed.

romair

..... let me assure you that we didn`t learn anything while dozing through that class on ``geopolitics`` between WT and lunch .....

...... pakistan created the monster that now threatens its very existence as a civilized nation .... it has to do everything it can to dismantle that taliban state and, more importantly, dismantle its tentacles inside pakistan ........ i know maulana samiullah and maulan fazlur rehman and our own general javed nasir are threatening to overthrow musharraf if he lets the infidel step foot on the holy land , but i would hope that an SSG officer can stand up to a madrassa graduate - if not then we are in deep trouble ......all this talk about engaging the afghans is nonsense - you don`t engage fanatical pit bulls ........

........ pakistan should close its borders with afghanistan immediately and give the U.S. full support - even if it means turning over DIK aribase ..... if we don`t Tajikistan and Uzbekistan will do it anyway and we will end up on the loosing side ...... the pakistani public will go along once the few mullahs and their inner circles have been disposed off - the disposal has to be ruthless and permanent ..... i know it sounds harsh and quite contrary to the principles of democracy and freedom, but those niceties do not apply to pathological killers ........

....... i know some apologists will say there is no proof against the taliban - that doesn`t matter.... they are an ill wind that will never blow any good .....

....... as for your comment about baa-baa black sheep, i think that if you have lived more than half your life in this country it is about time you get a little teary-eyed when you stand up for the star-spangled banner at the baseball game .......and even if we are not, our children are full-blooded americans - or arn`t they ?

........on another note, so far i am not impressed by george w. even though i voted for him.... clinton was out there in manhattan today looking quite presidential - you have to give the devil his due ........ i hope rudy runs for president one day - he has been just great ........

To young `uns spluttering like water on a hot plate

I think this explains what many Indians on chowk think and I donot know how anyone can have a quarrel with it:

http://news.sify.com/cgi-bin/sifynews/news/content/news_fullstory.jsp?article_oid=6453019&page_no=1
`` Air Vice Marshal Kak was until recently with New Delhi’s prestigious Institute for Defense Studies and Analyses (IDSA).

``...Now, the question is whether in an effort to mollify the US, General Musharraf will go out of his way to help the US to bring the Taliban regime in Afghanistan to its knees.

I am not so sure of that if Pakistanis wanted to help they would have done that years ago. The fact of the matter is that Pakistan occupies a `vital space` in the region as it provides cross-roads to the Central Asian region on the one hand, with its huge reserves of oil and also to China, with its nuclear capability.

Given that scenario, the US will have to engage with Pakistan. It will provide, in my opinion, intravenous support to Pakistan.

However, the silver lining will be that the engagement will be based on the genuine interests of Pakistan and the US.

That is Pakistan will have to clean up its act on the support to the Taliban regime and its export of terrorism to the Indian borders.

Pakistan’s support to terrorism and its resort to proxy-war has actually come a cropper. Pakistan will have to look it is real interests, which include lending stability to its economy, polity and moving its society away from sectarianism and strife.

This is where, I think, that the US pressure may feel on Pakistan to abjure its resort to cross-border terrorism and this will actually sow the seeds for the normalisation of the situation in Kashmir, as the Pakistani leadership will be hard put to atleast covertly support the cause of the militants. Especially since, President George Bush has said that the US will not make a distinction between terrorists and those states that harbour and support terrorism.

While the normalisation in Kashmir may not happen in a hurry I think the recent events will surely lead the way to such a situation. However, at the same time we should not be simplistic or generalise the context to such an extent that we talk about a US `tilt` towards India.

I think there is nothing to be too ga-ga about.

The limits and the tenor of the future Indo-Us relations will be based on respective national interests. Therefore, there is every likelihood that it will be a relationship with its ups and downs. ...``

I really like Barry Bearak and his coverage. He has previously written great articles(for and against)on issues pertaining to Pakistan and India. The following article has another perspective and I thought of putting it here, in case all have not read it in NY Times today.

September 12, 2001

Taliban Plea to U.S.: Don`t Put Us in More Misery
By BARRY BEARAK

ABUL, Afghanistan, Sept. 12 — If there are Americans clamoring to bomb Afghanistan back to the Stone Age, they ought to know that this nation does not have so far to go. This is a post-apocalyptic place of felled cities, parched land and downtrodden people.

The fragility of this country was part of the message the Taliban government conveyed in a plea for restraint issued late tonight.

It said in part: ``We appeal to the United States not to put Afghanistan into more misery because our people have suffered so much.``

Whatever Afghanistan`s current cataclysm, the nation`s next one seems to require little time to overtake it. Wars fought by sundry protagonists have gone on now for 22 consecutive years, a remorseless drought for four. Since 1996, most of the nation has been ruled by Taliban mullahs whose vision of the world`s purest Islamic state has at least as much to do with controlling social behavior as vouchsafing social welfare.

The accused terrorist Osama bin Laden has found a home here, angering much of the world. In 1998, the United States fired a volley of more than 70 cruise missiles at guerrilla training camps that are reported to be operated by the Saudi multimillionaire. Now, there seems to be the prospect of another American barrage, with Afghan hospitality to the same man as the cause.

As fear of an American attack mounted, the Taliban`s senior spokesman in Kandahar, Abdul Hai Mutmain, called the few foreign reporters here tonight to issue the statement, which in part defended Mr. bin Laden:

``These days, Osama bin Laden`s name has become very popular and to an extent it has become a symbol. These days, even to the common people, Osama bin Laden`s name is associated with all controversial acts. Osama bin Laden does not have such capabilities. We still hope sanity prevails in the United States. We are confident that if a fair investigation is carried out by American authorities, the Taliban will not be found guilty of involvement in such cowardly acts.``

The statement also said, ``Killing our leaders will not help our people any. There is no factory in Afghanistan that is worth the price of a single missile fired at us. It will simply increase the mistrust between the people in the region and the United States.

Whatever else there is to say about this entreaty, one part that is indisputably true is that this land-locked, ruggedly beautiful nation is in absolute misery.

Here in Kabul, the capital, roaming clusters of widows beg in the streets, their palms seemingly frozen in a supplicant pose. Withered men pull overloaded carts, their labor less costly than the price of a donkey.

Children play in vast ruins, their limbs sometimes wrenched away by remnant land mines. The national life expectancy, according to the central statistics office, has fallen to 42 years old for males and 40 for females.

The prolonged drought has sent nearly a million Afghans — about 5 percent of the population — on a desperate flight from hunger. Some have gone to other Afghan cities, others across the border. More than one million are ``at risk of starvation,`` according to the United Nations.

Famine is the catastrophe Afghans are used to hearing about. Few yet know of the threat of an American reprisal. The Taliban long ago banned television, and the lack of electricity keeps most people from listening to radio.

The nation`s 100 or so foreign aid workers suffer no such telecommunications handicaps, however, and today many of them began to flee their adopted home, fearing either the havoc of American bombs or the wrath of subsequent Afghan outrage.

Around noon, a special United Nations flight evacuated the first of the expatriates. The remaining foreigners are expected to leave Thursday, as will three, and perhaps all four, of the American parents here to observe the trial of their children, among eight foreign aid workers accused by the Taliban of preaching Christianity.

As foreigners left, the Taliban took unusual precautions. They began searching every vehicle entering government compounds. Visitors were carefully frisked.

But however much the Taliban hierarchy was beginning to fret, streets and bazaars were a picture of normality. Word has only spread slowly about the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington. And even when everyday Afghans heard the news, there were no accompanying video images to sear the horror into their memories. Personal conversations only carried the dull stimuli of abstract words: hijacked planes and collapsed buildings.

Khair Khana, a man selling fertilizer in a market, knew just a bit about the attack. He thought a plane had crashed into the White House. And he considered the perpetrators, whoever they are, to be ``enemies of God,`` though he also felt ``Americans should look into their hearts and minds about why someone would kill themselves and others`` in such a way.

He had not thought much about an American retaliation against Afghanistan. When he did consider it, standing in a ramshackle collection of stalls, he shrugged and said: ``Americans are powerful and can do anything they like without us stopping them.``

Nearby, a tailor, Abdul Malik, saw God`s justice in America`s pain because, as he understands it, the United States has armed the Afghan resistance to fight against the Taliban. ``So they at least now know how it feels in their own country,`` he said.

As for Mr. bin Laden, the tailor considered judgment of him to be God`s affair. ``If Osama is Islam`s enemy, he should be gotten rid of,`` he said. ``But if he is a good Muslim and wants Islam to prosper — and if America wants him dead — then we hope he destroys America.``

The common people of Afghanistan are often circumspect with their opinions. As one man said today: ``Nobody here talks wholeheartedly any more; it can be dangerous.``

The Taliban are credited with improving safety. They disarmed the population, they put an end to banditry. But the security has come at a steep price.

Women have been forced into head-to-toe gowns and evicted from schools and the workplace. Men are obligated to wear long beards or face jail. Banned are musical instruments, chess boards, playing cards, nail polish and neckties. Cheers at soccer matches are restricted to ``Allah-o-Akbar,`` or God is great. Freedom of speech has bowed to religious totalitarianism.

Various Taliban police forces patrol the streets. Today, in a derelict building that is used as a precinct office, one 25-year-old constable sat on the floor beneath a single dangling light bulb. His name was Muhammad Anwar. He had heard something about the terrorist attacks in the United States, but he had no idea how many were killed or what cities were involved. Indeed, it seemed unlikely that he had ever heard of New York.

``Attacks like these are not a good thing because Muslims live all over the world and Muslims may have been killed,`` Mr. Anwar said hesitantly. By his reckoning, Americans were enemies of Afghanistan, as were Jews and Christians. He thought about this a bit more and retracted it partially. ``There must have been all kinds of people in the building, not just bad Jews but good Jews, not just bad Christians but good ones.``

He remembered something he had learned in his religious school. ``It is un-Islamic to kill innocent people,`` he said.


Personally, I am a strong proponent of drawing a wall like ``the Great Wall of China`` between Pakistan and Afghanistan - but this article and many others also tell the pathetic situation the Afghans are going through under the lunatic and cursed regime.

Pakistan must realize that we have pockets of chaos here and there in our own country - how can we think of accomodating Afghanis in anyway or shape?

BBC showed a documentary on the Afghan Refugees few weeks back where it was brought to light that the refugees are in pathetic situation in the outskirts of Peshawar. I have forgotten the name of the town - something with a J. Those Afghan Refugees were paying some travel agents to get out of that misery and leave for other countries in the world - Germany, Australia and Europe. Pakistan has no way of feeding such a huge population of refugees. The refugees, in return, have no affiliation and ties and any kind of feelings towards Pakistan. Being humane is one thing; being silly is another. The countries who can provided assistance to support or feed the refugees should come forth. Pakistan at this time cannot take the burden of Afghanis.

We should close our borders with Afghanistan. The BBC Correspondent very sarcastically stated that there is one thing the youth is tremdendously enjoying and have learnt very well:

HOWZTHAT!

And Afghan Youth was shown playing cricket with full fervor. By the way, an idol mind is a devil`s den. We are being taken for a ride here!